Seeking Center: The Podcast

Discover A New Kind of Tarot…That’s Actually Been Around For Thousands of Years - Episode 30

March 09, 2021 Robyn Miller Brecker / Karen Loenser / William Charnock Season 1 Episode 30
Discover A New Kind of Tarot…That’s Actually Been Around For Thousands of Years - Episode 30
Seeking Center: The Podcast
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Seeking Center: The Podcast
Discover A New Kind of Tarot…That’s Actually Been Around For Thousands of Years - Episode 30
Mar 09, 2021 Season 1 Episode 30
Robyn Miller Brecker / Karen Loenser / William Charnock

As Robyn was beginning to dig into the study of Tarot, her husband Jeff came across a new methodology and deck of cards created by his former colleague Global Advertising leader, William Charnock.  When Robyn took a look, her jaw dropped.  From William’s 30+ years working within Fortune 500 companies, he had many lists of values, behaviors, personalities and archetypes that he’d collected over the years.  He began to see patterns —and he began to integrate his findings with his studies in Gnosticism, Alchemy, Psychology, Philosophy, and other ancient texts. What he uncovered became the AEON cards, which unlock the wisdom of our souls — and are — dare we say, magical?! 

William discusses his upbringing, which is rooted in Atheism and Agnosticism — which is fascinating considering where he is today. He then talks about the evolution of his thinking when it came to ideation…and then the discovery of the AEONS, which are are a collection of forces and energies that pre-date any formalized religion. The AEONS come from digging into Gnostic texts and to William’s surprise mirrored work he had already been doing in his professional career.  

William’s AEON cards can lead to invaluable personal and soul guidance. He explains how he feels they differ from Tarot or Oracle cards. He discusses the layers of meaning integrated into each card, as well as the importance of the design. The cards were designed by Graham Wood.

And you have to watch as William gives mind-blowing mini-readings to Robyn and Karen. Get ready to see how you can unlock the answers from within!

For more information about William Charnock and the AEON and Nockwood Cards, visit

Visit for more from Robyn + Karen, plus mega inspo -- and the best wellness + spiritual practitioners, products and experiences on the planet!

You can also follow Seeking Center on Instagram @theseekingcenter

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

As Robyn was beginning to dig into the study of Tarot, her husband Jeff came across a new methodology and deck of cards created by his former colleague Global Advertising leader, William Charnock.  When Robyn took a look, her jaw dropped.  From William’s 30+ years working within Fortune 500 companies, he had many lists of values, behaviors, personalities and archetypes that he’d collected over the years.  He began to see patterns —and he began to integrate his findings with his studies in Gnosticism, Alchemy, Psychology, Philosophy, and other ancient texts. What he uncovered became the AEON cards, which unlock the wisdom of our souls — and are — dare we say, magical?! 

William discusses his upbringing, which is rooted in Atheism and Agnosticism — which is fascinating considering where he is today. He then talks about the evolution of his thinking when it came to ideation…and then the discovery of the AEONS, which are are a collection of forces and energies that pre-date any formalized religion. The AEONS come from digging into Gnostic texts and to William’s surprise mirrored work he had already been doing in his professional career.  

William’s AEON cards can lead to invaluable personal and soul guidance. He explains how he feels they differ from Tarot or Oracle cards. He discusses the layers of meaning integrated into each card, as well as the importance of the design. The cards were designed by Graham Wood.

And you have to watch as William gives mind-blowing mini-readings to Robyn and Karen. Get ready to see how you can unlock the answers from within!

For more information about William Charnock and the AEON and Nockwood Cards, visit

Visit for more from Robyn + Karen, plus mega inspo -- and the best wellness + spiritual practitioners, products and experiences on the planet!

You can also follow Seeking Center on Instagram @theseekingcenter

Have you ever wondered about life's biggest questions? Like, why am I here? What happens when we die? Or what else is out there, but we have, and we love to talk about it. And if you're listening, we think you probably do too. I'm Robyn and I'm Karen and we've spent our lives searching for those answers.

And we're seekers, just like you talking to some of the most fascinating spiritual teachers, healers and scientists. And showing you how you can use some of their spiritual practices for you. We'll also be sharing stories of other seekers. They motivate you to live your fullest life. We translating it all.

So the spiritual stuff won't feel so out there. If you're curious, get ready to rediscover why we're here together. I love the way the universe works. As I was beginning to dig into the study of taro, my husband, Jeff came across a brand new deck of cards and methodology that can be applied to us as individuals, as well as brands and businesses.

This new practice is called a analogy and it's been created by Jeff former colleague, William Charnock and designer. Graham Wood when I took a look at the stunning cards and the thinking behind them. I knew we had to talk to William his life journey as well as additional studies in philosophy, psychology history, alchemy magic, and ancient texts are fascinating and have led to the creation of the knock wood cards.

Williams had a long history of transforming tremendous global brands. He found that after 30 years of working within many fortune 500 companies, he had many lists of values, behaviors, personalities, and archetypes that he'd collected over the years. He began to see patterns and we'll have him tell the rest of the story, but William, tell us about your background.

Well, my background is sort of interesting. I grew up and came through a traditional sort of advertising, marketing background. What my focus has always been, has been sort of behavior change where only have, how can we use communications to effect behavior? And so that's actually been a theme that's sort of gone through everything.

And I was using mass media as a really good way to sort of tell stories and try and get people to behave in a different way. From that space sort of jumped really early on into the digital world. When everyone said don't leave the advertising world, digital is small. It's only going to be a subset. And I was like, no, this software is one of the most powerful tools I've ever seen for changing human behavior.

So I joined a company called RGA. I was their first global chief strategy officer. That was my background very much in that space is not connected with this. In addition to that professional background, can you talk about, I know what's come up when you talked to Karen and I is that you actually are an atheist.

Yeah, which I think is really important in talking about what we're, what we're discussing and how do you define atheists to be fascinated? To know that I was brought up in a household. That was my mother was the religious one. She was an agnostic and my father was. Really strong atheist. I had always grown up with a sort of sense that I didn't believe in anything.

And it was mainly the such of traditional sort, the formal religious things, but again, a very pragmatic, very functional view of life. The universe. I don't know if I'm still an atheist. I don't think you are. I don't need there, but I would think with this work, it's probably opened up something. Well, this book has really opened up my appreciation.

And again, this is where I'm I tap dance around the edges on this, because while I considered myself an atheist. I do believe these, that there's a lot of stuff in the world that we just don't understand that we don't know about. And I'm really comfortable with that. And I'm really comfortable that I don't have to know everything now, do I make up beliefs and create beliefs to help me process some of those things do I, and these cards have actually helped me think about all of the things that I really don't know about or don't fully understand.

And I do end up creating beliefs around those things. But again, I'm, I'm not sure what I would put myself in the formal religion space, but I am really comfortable with forces and energies that I don't comprehend. I understand. And how do you define what an atheist is? Definition is more in the sort of, not following a particular dogma of faith.

So I tend to believe that there are things in the world that I don't fully understand. I don't follow a formalized dogma around that. I forgot who it was. Someone told me a definition of atheism, which I really liked, which was okay. Even if you believe in something, there's something you believe, but that's not the same as what everybody else has believed.

And this person said, well, you know what I am you, plus one is like all those things that you don't believe. I equally don't believe. And I just happened to not believe the one other thing that you do believe it's not an active belief. It's just an absence of a formalized belief. I had a different interpretation, so I'm so glad you defined it.

And just first is like an agnostic. I think that may come up. People questioning what's agnostic versus atheism agnostic. I mean, again, a lot of my work has been looking at. Ancient Greek language and gnosis, which is knowing is so agnostic is not to knowing, I think AVS is knowing, but knowing that there is an absence, not knowing that there is a presence.

So I have a sense that I know there is an absence of some formal godlike. Figure I can still reconcile that alongside. I actually know there are a lot of forces and energies and things that I don't understand, and that can be anything from quantum physics, which I find absolutely impossible to understand up to.

There are. Things that happened, that I have no way of knowing why they've happened that way. And I can ascribe certain magical energies or magical forces or certain beliefs that I have as to why that it was may have happened. Those get really close to religion and spirituality, but they're not actually a sort of formalized basis.

They also tend to be quite fluid. So that sort of way of thinking has allowed me to start pick some of the spiritual tools that I find helpful and drop some of the others. So I have a little bit of a, a utility of belief and I don't have to know why I don't have to have a rationalization for it, but I can see that there's a, a thing here that I don't know why, but it seems to happen that.

Wait, that's why I hesitate to say atheist, because I do believe in some of these unknown things that we were trying to get our heads around why they happen and we perhaps could create our own belief for them. And those, I find myself very much a Renaissance man, picking up lots of interesting beliefs from all over the place and stitching them together in my own way.

And one of the interesting things. If I connect that back to my advertising world in the advertising world, we were so obsessed by rationality and reason. We were so determined to prove that advertising works. And the had an effect that we actually got so much into the logic and the reason behind advertising that we ignored all the intangibles and these.

Unknown things, which sort of seems really weird for an industry that's all around creativity. But what I found myself in the advertising world is going, why do we have to keep so focused on reason and logic? Are there other modes of operation that we can tap into? I found myself using that same atheism and agnosticism in the advertising world and starting to talk to people about the non rational, the.

The non logical ways in which marketing and advertising works. And when you think about a brands, actually, the intangibles of the brands that are actually the most powerful, not the tangibles, the tangibles are really boring. It's all the stuff that we can create. And I call that magic. I call that magic of what's this intangible, what's this thing.

We don't really know why, but we create a relationship with people. We create a sense of mystery as to imbuing. A product with some sort of attribute or quality that we can't quite put our finger on. And if that's not magic, I sort of don't know what is love that you talked that way because coming out of the corporate advertising world myself, I just feel that everything is always so data-driven right.

Like, what is the, what are the numbers telling us? What's the demographic, as you were saying that I was just thinking of a quote that I've used quite often, which is Allister, Crowley. He defined magic as a set of beliefs that believers have, that they can have an effect that you can affect change and affect the change that non-believers.

I think it would be impossible. And so in some ways, those who believe in magic can see changes happen. That nonbelievers would think, Oh, you could never do that. And so that's how I've been defining magic. It's believing that something can happen that the rest of the world thinks is impossible and that definition applies.

On so many levels, it can apply to your own self. It can apply in my well didn't branding and marketing, but I think it can apply in bigger cultural shifts. So most people will say that's totally impossible, but if you believe it can change, you can actually make it happen. So there's a whole magic there.

Oh, it's so true. I mean, it actually just makes me think about all of my time working with Oprah. She would always talk about where she came from. Right. She was a little girl, her grandmother, would they be churning butter? And her grandmother would say, you have to learn how to turn this butter. And she's like, no, I don't because I'm not going to be doing this.

And she was a little girl. And that's what she believed. Have you, the guy in the office that people looked at to inspire, or did they bring you in the room for the strategy? How did you navigate that? I've always played in the edges. I've never played in the center. Now. It does mean sometimes I've actually ended up in corporate environment where I am the crazy mad guy.

Who's made someone use a tarot deck to get to a brand strategy, but I'm sort of amazed how much people sort of just, except it. It's amazing how desperate people get for new ideas and they just sort of embrace it. And sometimes it. Leads to wonderful things. How did that evolve? You were studying human behavior.

Applying that to the creative process. When did you start using the term magic or intuition or seeing the patterns? How did that evolve? Over a time within your career. I spent 20 years. It was later in my career, definitely that I had the confidence. And the funny thing is we often think that trends and fashions and creativity is an exercise in looking outward.

And for a long time, I did that. And really what I started doing was looking at the problem that the client I had in front of me. Was talking about, was looking at that problem from that other perspective from, Oh, let's do what they did. Let's do something like the award-winning piece. Let's do something like that.

And you know what, that can be really successful. But at a certain point, I realized that creativity was an NFL focused. Initiative now a outwardly focused. And I started thinking, well, you know, I have points of view on what good work is. And I just started getting more coveted in my own beliefs and my own belief of what was possible.

And I think it was that leap. It was the leap from looking outward. To looking inward that then made me realize that actually creativity is knowing yourself, knowing your point of view. That was my journey. Is that really later on, I was like, you know what? I have a point of view here. I it's like that old the Delphic Oracle on the door of the temple to Delfy for the article.

It says know thyself. And I think that's true. It's really, you can only make amazing creatively by knowing yourself and knowing your own imagination, having a confidence in your ideas. You're hitting on something like such a valuable perspective. You never teach that in creativity. We never teach that to our interns, to the young people.

We tell them to follow and replicate other people. And I do a lot of work with diversity and bringing women into the advertising industry. What we want is their voice. We work their ideas. And so unless we teach them. Importance of their own ideas, unless we teach them that they know what good is and their good will be different to the good of the 40 year old white guy who runs the department.

That's what we've got to teach. People had to say how this connected back to my atheism or my attitude to spirituality. And I think it's when you have those beliefs and you are confident in those beliefs, that's where you start to tap into. All sorts of things that, again, you don't fully understand, you don't know whether it's subconscious or conscious, but it's just a gut feel that you have.

There's an idea that comes out of nowhere and who knows. It's when you're sleeping, it's in your shower. And to be able to pick that idea up and run with it is actually hard for a lot of people. What I teach in creativity is that that's the stuff that is magical. And so that's why I, I do put that connection between advertising marketing.

Self knowledge and magic altogether in the same bucket. I think what you just said is going to inspire a lot of people to pay closer attention to those sparks and to those ideas and to realize that's creativity in process. Then when did you start to see the patterns? In the work that you were doing and is that what was an inspiration for you to dive deeper into ancient texts and psychology and brain chemistry?

Be totally honest. The path that I went on started from a very, very conventional place. The path started really in my work. And I like everybody else in the industry used Young's 12 archetypes. These archetypes are wonderful. They're really good framework for thinking about stories and narratives. It's a typology in, in many ways, the work I was doing originally, it was all storytelling.

So that worked perfectly. But as my work went into that behavioral space where we were actually talking less about imagery and perception and much more about how should you behave as an organization. That's what I found those. 12 architects were really a little limited. So I basically set out to say, right, let's create a different set of archetypes.

Let's create some architects based around behaviors rather than stories. I'm not the first person to think about human behavior. I decided that I wouldn't invent something new. I'd go back in history and look at every single categorization of human behavior I could find. I went Hippocrates to the humors.

I went all the way back to Aristotle and some of his different types of human beings. I went into alchemy and astrology where you're looking at air fire water, which both they're signs of of matter, but they're also signs of behaviors. So there was that there were earth signs and there were fire signs and they will have behavioral characteristics all the way through fried young behavioral psychology Myers Briggs.

Enneagrams. And then ending up with sort of modern behavioral science and brain psychology. So I did that full exploration and basically found that there were some patterns in all of those things that they found. And I wasn't, I wasn't looking for the commonalities. I was looking for where they differentiated themselves.

And I came to the idea that there were six core motivations. Of human behavior. It was from that study. And that work that I did that I started saying, creating a set of 36 archetypes. So it's six by six was 36. So there was a, a method by which I created these archetypes gave them names, but then I made the leap of saying, right, I'm going to create a deck of cards because I'd really like to sort these cards.

And use them as prompts to clients to think about how they want to behave. The minute you start to create a deck of cards. That's when people start asking you to do a reading, that's when people start asking you to, can you use these on me? And so that's what I've found myself, starting to use the cards and sort of interesting ways, both with clients and with them.

Do you remember that first time and, and what that was like and what was going through your mind? It started very. Simply, and that I would do card sorting exercises and just ask them, pick the ones that are like you pick the ones that are. But later on, after I'd done that a few times, I actually started using them more like a tarot where the randomness of the card actually helped trigger and create some sort of response in them.

And that was when I started thinking this is sort of a powerful tool for sort of unlocking things that they weren't thinking about. The other thing I noticed was that. When I took these cards out to parties or events or places where I was with other people, there is a real power in having this deck of cards in your hand and doing a reading with people.

And so I found myself doing readings at parties or events, and some of the most intimidating people I could ever possibly imagined ended up in deep conversation, maybe with crowds of people around just watching and listening, because I had a $10 deck of cards in my hand, and it was a deck of cards, not like anything.

That's. Seen before. And they were listening to me in a way that if I hadn't had that deck of cards, they probably wouldn't have that's when I realized there's something quite powerful about the use of cards, because it has a cultural resonance when the card has a particular meaning and the position has a particular meaning you don't actually have to do much, but the person makes a connection for them.

And if they tell you what that connection is, it actually often unlocks a load of things that they might not have unlocked. Without the prompt of the card in that position. And that was the point that when I decided, okay, I can't use these cards that I created work for individuals anymore. And that's when I created the second deck, which were actually designed specifically for more individual readings.

Well, let's talk about in developing those cards, what you used for the second deck and. I'd love for you to also talk about the predestined meeting with Elaine Pegal. So having developed that first day of cards and I'd been using them with individuals, what I realized was that language was wrong. It wasn't resonating with individuals in the same way as it resonated with brands and businesses.

And so I started off really just trying to find a new language. For helping people think about themselves and the different facets of themselves. And I looked around and I, I couldn't find anything that I liked. There was an awful lot of it that had been sort of either co-opted or it felt superficial.

And so it was that search for language that I stumbled across this book, an old text called pistis Sophia, which is the faith of. Sophia, which is wisdom. And so in the pistols, Sophia, there's this description of the origin of the universe. It's a cosmology. And as these waves of generations have these things called aliens that are sort of born at the beginning of time.

And then as they evolve, they get closer and closer to sort of materials. So they start in the very divine place and they get closer and closer to the material world. And what I found in that was the language that I, I thought was very distinct, very different. And that's when I came across this idea of a chronology, which apparently in the first, second, third century was a big way of thinking about yourself, thinking about the world.

And what I found was that it was a really big overlap between some of the things I'd identified in the first deck of cards. And actually this, the symmetry was almost uncanny the structure of six. And then the pairings of those six to create 36 was almost the exact structure of this thing. Aeonology which dated back to the first and second century.

The idea in aenology is that. At the beginning of the universe, there was this thing, the monad the loan being mono is like being on your own in this monad was this Supreme divine being, and it turns out he's like God's grandfather. He existed in nothingness in total nothingness. But the word for nothingness was Sikh, which was female and male not, he was called by thoughts.

He was male. And so these two created from nothingness. He had a thought. And so in having a thought. He created now switch his mind. And that was everything that he could think as a Supreme being. And at the same time, as he created that and he created everything else that was not in his mind was also created.

And that was truth. So it was the inner and outer again, it was like everything that was in her, his mind and everything was out, it was truth. And so there's this story of how from them, there's this. Generations of 36 aliens that are born into the world, which are all the things that exist within the world.

I was in the middle of reading these first and second century texts. And I was getting very deep into these texts that were discovered in. Egypt in the desert, they were discovered in the forties, but they didn't really get written up until the seventies. And these are the texts that have the gospel of Mary Magdalene, the gospel of Thomas and a whole load of other texts that were amazing.

So I was reading these texts and going back to the original Greek and I was at a party and I was. Chatting with this woman for most of the evening. And then towards the end of the evening, she said, Oh, what's your name? And I said, William. And I said, what's yours? And I said, what do you do? She said she was a sort of historian of theology.

And I said, Oh, I'm just reading the Pistis Sophia. And there's wonderful text called thunder, the perfect mind, which is a sort of second century Gnostic text. And she said, really, why are you reading that? What is that? And I said, well, I'm doing this project and I'm working on these things. And what I hadn't realized, having talked to her for the whole evening was that this was the Elaine pay gal who was actually the person who first translated them really first looked into all of these texts that were discovered.

And so from that, you can imagine my mind at that moment, I'm like, this is so serendipitous in the middle of these reading, these texts. I'm literally talking to the person who really dived in and understood these. Nonconventional gospels. And so she wrote a book called the Gnostic gospels. That is really one of the best thesis on all of these texts.

And so I was really lucky because I ended up working a little bit with her and sharing what I was doing. And she gave me some guidance and direction on where I should look and what I should be doing. But it was one of those moments when you go, this can't be happening. This happened, it did not happen by accident.

Oh, I mean like that is the power of attraction. You called that in. I got the good, I mean, I just, literally, the other thing that you've said, some people may look at what you created and think you've discovered something you say is you've uncovered it, right? Like that's the way that you put it. And again, I steal that language from Althea that word, that means truth.

That which will be revealed the overlap between these two things is, is not that surprising when you think about it. Because my studies gone back to some of the original documents that have been so influenced by those cultural facts over the ages. What I do think is that as I worked on this, I didn't feel like I was creating anything new.

I was really just uncovering what was already there. And I think my first study had sort of uncovered the sort of the base framework. And then these old ancient texts really gave sort of some of the rich stories around that framework, these aliens come in pairs. So again, my original cards had been pairings of cards and these aliens come in these pairs, but the relationship that called  that pairs that are inextricably linked, it means yoked together.

Like. Two oxen, so held together. And when you actually look at them, they're not opposites. They're complimentary pairings. In fact, they've been given genders, male and female, because they're about the, how these two things are perfect together and fit for me. It's really fascinating that the more I you get into the details, the more you get.

Into how these things have been described for the millennia. That for me is, is where I just feel like I'm, I'm scraping off the dust and and just revealing these things that are actually really powerful and have been around for a very long time. And in fact, Carl Young, who, when he was creating his.

Frameworks for his developing of psychology. He actually used a number of these texts. Now this was before his big hole was found in the 1940s. So there were a few texts out before, and he used some of the frameworks for his definition of the subconscious and the soul. And he described it as a perennial roots.

So it's a root in the ground that every so often. Comes back and is loud. And he said, this goes back to the Kabbalah in ancient times. It's outcome me the same themes come up in alchemy in the middle ages. They come back in the reformation. And then I believe that coming back now with Elaine and revealing the Gnostic gospels, there's massive hold of these ancient texts, that reveal amazing ways of thinking that have been lost for ages and are now just being uncovered.

And there. Firing, lots of people. I feel like we're in the middle of a little bit of a Renaissance on all of these ways of thinking. Let's talk about the design of the cards, because first of all, they're beautiful. They're just absolutely beautiful. And I know people will get to see them right. Because we're going to actually do a reading as well, but can you talk about why it was important for you to design them in a specific way?

That was, is very different than when people look at tarot cards and Oracle cards and so forth. So this is the first set of cards. And the design here. I was very intentional that a lot of the archetype cards tended to personalize and anthropomorphize or turned into people, the, the different archetypes and the problem with that is when you start to put sort of other aspects of.

The person, other imagery around them, you really sort of narrow people's understanding of, of what's on the card. So I was very intentional. What I wanted to do was keep these very symbolic and really simple. So that there's the symbols that are represented here could actually mean something and that people could interpret them in their own way.

So the first deck of cards were really, really simple. Each one of the six types is in it is a shape, six fundamental. So are geometric shapes and then the colors of the rainbow. Again, the six key colors, the cards are actually color coded and shape oriented. And they're combinations of pairs of each of these different forces and energies.

I was working with the designer. Who's a guy called Graham Wood, and we just happened to take off the layer of all the superficial stuff. And it just went back to the simple design and we suddenly just realized that that was the best thing. When I went to. The Aeon cards, which were the ones that are based on ancient text.

I want you to keep the elements of the ancient texts still pretty clear. So the symbols are exactly the same symbols as were in the original cards, but they're just aligned with the, the different aliens from these texts in these texts, and then lots of different. Characteristics. So half of these aeons are divine and half of them are earthly.

And then obviously some of them are combinations of the two. So there's little symbols on each of the cards that tell you where in the hierarchy, each of the cards fit. There's some other pieces on the cards as well, which are other layers of meaning there's male, female. And again, that's not the gender male, female.

That's about. Action and reaction. So what you, what you see, I don't know if you can see here, but these are the cards and they, they have these different symbols on them that really show where they fit. So you can, you can go into these cards at the highest level and just take the word and what it means.

And the book has the definition and the cards. Come with the deck, have the definition, or you can get really deep into the meanings about the different layers and the gender and the, all the different aspects, every card for so many different questions. And are you still using the first deck? We'll use the first act all the time with marketing clients.

And, and anybody in the marketing sort of advertising creative world, that deck still works best in when I'm dealing with corporations or businesses or stuff like that. But now more and more people are interested in, in the personal cards, all sorts of different people find these cards in different ways, but I've got people who are like life coaches who have been using them.

I've got all sorts of. People using them just in the same way as you would use tarot. I've got some people who just love the sort of deeper technical aspects. I didn't realize that Gnosticism is one of the fastest growing religions in America at the moment. It's an early form of Christianity. And actually, so these texts that were found in the first and second century was before the real canonization of the Christian faith.

So these were Christian texts that sort of before the formal Catholic church was canonized, they got all got named Gnostic, which means knowing people are going back to early Christianity and finding some of these ideas that are frankly, in some of these texts that were discovered in 1940s. And they're finding spirituality and they've created churches around them.

When you work with people, are you surprised by the cards that they pick and how relevant that they are to their life story and, and maybe some answers that they need to hear. I'm wondering how magical do you think these really are? It's a really good question. I started off thinking that that really, it was just random.

Originally the magic was a sort of tapping into intuitive knowledge or subconscious knowledge that they couldn't previously reveal to themselves. And in some ways that was magic enough for me, which was the, you're unlocking a door and you're opening a door to something that they already knew, but they couldn't quite access.

This second deck of cards has really. Push my thinking, because I've been doing these readings now for five years and I am always amazed what comes out and how, not just by my definition, but by the person having the reading, just go. That was exactly what I needed to know. And I'm, I come back to the things that I don't quite know.

Is that just random or is there some sort of serendipity, there is the serendipity more than just a casual coincidence. And it happens so much that I find it really hard to believe that it's just random acts of insight. There's got to be something else that now don't ask me to explain it. It's one of those things I have no explanation for.

I always describe it as a power. They seem to have a power and they seem to come at the right time for the right people. Can I give you an example? So you sent me that your beautiful book. When I first looked at it, I felt like. I was seeing something from the ancient past, but also from the very distant future.

You, so sweetly put a card into the book, which I'm sure you do for all. And I think that's awesome. And I don't know anything about these cards. So obviously I just looked at, and this is, this is the one that I got. Mark carotids. Yes. I opened this book two, two or three days ago. I can't remember what, but at the time we were marooned here in Dallas, in a blizzard.

I was marooned with five people in three dogs in this teeny apartment, trying to do my work. There was a fire alarm going off all day long, two apartments down because there was water main breaking everywhere. It was may hem. So this is the guard I pick, right. And of course I look it up. And the first definition is.

Perfect beauty and perfect bliss, Nirvana, perfect happiness destination to seek a thing to be sought or aimed for in some ways, heaven, freedom from evil and sin and escape. And I was like, Oh man, this is like completely not right for me. But then I realized. I had gotten the reverse one. And when I pulled up, I was like, Oh, and then I read the reverse and it's imprisonment confinement or punishment.

The darkness of a cage with no light, not have explained your situation made me laugh so hard. It still surprises me. When you think about the timing, you know, you had sent that to Karen Weeks ago. She had didn't open it until a few days ago. When she was in the middle of this, it was complete. May have that moment was that card.

Literally, I used to do an exercise and I still do every so often. I used to do it every single day, where I would look at a card and really just reflect on one card in these Gnostic texts, they talk about different levels of meaning. Highlight, which is very much materials. I would look at this from a material psychic, which is looking at it from a mentor and a psychology perspective and pneumatic, which is spirit.

So it's sort of material, psychological and spiritual. And so just one card is often a really. You can reflect in three ways on that one card. I used to do it every day. I tell you it often framed my whole day. I was like, I can't believe that Card came up this morning. And I think back to what we were talking about in terms of creativity and finding your own creativity I've described, these cards is really guidance from your own being.

Where if tarot tends to be described as getting guidance from above where there is some forces in the world that are just giving you, telling you what's going to happen, but you have no control. And you have no say in that the way I've been doing these readings and the way I use them is very much. And I call it guidance from your being that the cards, reveal choices and decisions that suggesting to you each one of the cards in a different position sort of gives you a way into it.

Think about whatever it is you're facing and it reframes it. So you see it from a different perspective and almost always a different perspective is helpful, but sometimes it just gives you a thing and go, Oh my God, that's how I should be thinking about it. And so for me, it's that unlocking. Of options that perhaps you haven't seen or you can't see because you're approaching this problem the same way yours solve every problem.

And the reason it's not fixing is because you keep trying to fix it the same way. And what's lovely about the aeons. The aeons were believed to be something that was in everything. It was in every object, in nature in the world, but it was also it's, it's a map or a compass of what was called the divine spark.

And the divine spark was this divine aspect of all human beings. But it's not just a, a single faceted thing. It's actually a multifaceted thing with all these 36 different aspects to them. And so what that's essentially saying is that we all have all of these different aspects. Within us. And it's not like your creative or your not like Myers, Briggs or Enneagram.

That sort of say, you're this, you're not that, but I love about it is it's not just saying you're all of these things. Just explore these aspects of you and find out what, find out more about that aspect of you and that for me, I mean, it's interesting. Gnosis. Gnosticism. It means knowing, but it's not about knowing a sort of religious truth.

It's actually knowing a truth within you. But that truth in these texts is a divine truth. So by knowing you, you know, God, you know, the Supreme being, but you also know something about everyone else and nature that it's a connective tissue between us, between nature, between God. These are thousands of years old and they've been.

Fine tuned over the thing like Carl Young used them for his psychology, like alchemists and Kabbalah all come from the same origin. I am so grateful that you've uncovered this. We discovered it. However we want to put it. Some may say yes, it's something that I've never told anyone lodging. My husband knows, but the Aeon cards my husband had to go away for a week.

I was home on my own. I'd been digging into the texts. I'd met Elaine. I wrote probably in three days. But then finished it off over the five days, almost every single aspect of the cards, the design, where they came from, where they did, if there's ever a thing that was channeling, I was channeling something those days, because literally I had the idea and then it came out in three days, the full system.

And it's a complex system, actually. Yes, it is the fact that you've uncovered 36. Aspects right. That we all have. And sometimes we're more of one thing than another, depending on where we are in our life, depending on the day. And there's a reason why that might be brought up for us to really look into that aspect, because we're not looking at all of them all the time, but we have them all within us.

It is the potential within each of us that is there. And I come back to that definition of magic is like, if I believe it's there, then I can use it to achieve something that people who don't believe this will think is impossible. And I think that same definition of magic works here is like, if I can believe that these things in may and I can use them to achieve the end.

Then sometimes I achieve that end, even though everyone said it was impossible. Teaching how to use them. I know I can figure this out. By looking through the book of the back, there is a number of different ways that I've found that really helpful to read. So there's a one card reading, which I described a little bit earlier.

Three card spread, which has a slightly differently the one I use the most often, which is a full card. And then there's a really complex six card spread, which I, I actually use for sort of when I really want to know about a particular thing. And it there's an object of. Of exploration. I have, I have not had time to do teaching.

I do readings for people and in those readings, I will teach someone how to use it for themselves. And I'm also very interested, different people have started using them in different way. And I'm also very interested in the community telling me how they're using it. We wanted to do a quick sort of demonstration reading.

I want to do that. Yeah. Yeah. We'd love that. In the deck, there's this card, which is more of a key card that key card represents on image of the cards. There was a shadow of light and dark. And again, that's the spirit of. Things that come together that cannot be separated with light comes darkness. So every card has an angle on it with a lightened up.

Every angle is on this key card. So you can actually read the angle of the light and dark on each card as well. And on the back of this is the key to the different generations, the different layers of meaning based on where in these ancient tech, that cards came out. Karen, should I do you? What I'm going to do is because nobody, I would get someone to shuffle the cards.

I'm going to keep shuffling. Just tell me when to stop. Okay. What I'm going to do is three piles there. One, two, three, or do you want me to put them back? The middle one first, then the one to the right and then the one to the left. Okay. So I'm going to do the simplest all card reading. And I may have to pick up the book occasionally because even I have to sometimes look at what the real meaning is.

The full card reading starts with the cards telling you. What the subject is. And as I said, this is not guidance from above. I'll. Describe what is on the card and you, so unlike taro, you'll tell me a little bit more of what it means to you. Okay. Robyn will help me cause she always does. I can't help myself.

This is Philetus, which is the liters means perfection, but it's not as in perfect it's as in constantly perfecting and honing and improving. So the symbols on hit, the triangle is inner. So there's an inner self and something you're perfecting or developing. And this is something that has many facets.

That's what the symbol in the middle means. The pentagram it's many faceted. It might be complex. It might be something that you've been doing for a long time. So what is there something going on that is about yourself? It's something, but it's this. Development improving again, something complex. Ah, this is good design or willing things into existence.

Constant improvement. Yes, sir. That would be about right. What is it? You're willing. So what's the subject here. It's this co-creation that Robyn and I are, are talking about. That is at the forefront of every moment of every day. Would you say yes. Yes. So we have this vision for what we want to create in terms of our overall production of a show of a platform that will deliver content like this.

Like classes, like shows like commerce. We want to develop this larger platform that can allow people to experience this content and so much others. And also to give people like you a place that seekers can find you, right? Cause we're finding people are all over the, you know, people are going down rabbit holes on the, on the internet looking for this type of information and they can't find it.

So our vision is, is that, so that falls in perfectly. So that's the subject. So this is where we're talking. That's the subject that we're talking about. Okay. There's an interesting parallel there between his idea of Philetus and perfection, because actually that the idea of perfection is built on the fact that this will never stop.

So on my other deck of cards, this was the designer. This is the design of Cod. Are you designing something and just constantly fine tuning, making better? Well, and we look at this as always evolving, right? Seeking me will never stop. Seeking or evolving. Right. And once we create this thing, it will never stop evolving as well.

But what I find so interesting that this card is the one that came up because it's both of us, right. Like in this forum, it's like, that's true. Interesting. That that would be the one we would explore that a little bit more, but yes, then the second card is the Ana what you will look to yourself for. So this is , which is eternal.

Talk about a little bit about the symbols on here, but what you've got here is the truth, which is discovering the forward facing triangle seeking truth. This something will be revealed. It's got the shield in the middle, which is protection cares, and this is a cop. It actually means. Protecting that what matters?

So the card here says, stay on course, stay unwavering. What this suggests to me is that this is an ongoing struggle. Is this something that you're going to be doing for a long time? Eternal means being true to that nature, being true to the core idea of what you are having to develop. So you're going to have to find within yourself the thing.

That holds this together. It's almost like that lens through which you just, everything you do, you put it through that lens, put it through that thing to make sure that you're staying on. Course we talk almost every day. And so it's really that where's that North star, what is my inner truth? What is my, what is my purpose?

How do I stay steadfast to that? And that's totally connected to that first card. Karen and I have been in situations where people. Are interested in what we're doing, but want to put their own spin on it for commercial reasons. And we are unwavering and staying true to what we believe, which is that we can educate, entertain and inspire without exploiting people without exploiting healers and teachers.

We know. What the magic can be and is our goal is to show people the magic and awaken, I would say we connect them to why they're here. That is the purpose of why I'm here. This, that first card is, is what I'm, what I want to do. And and to get there is following my inner right. It's my soul's purpose in the book for this one was stick with.

So this is about consistency. And something that will always be present. So what you're doing now has to live to everything you're doing in the future, stick with what, you know, stay on calls, be unwavering, a consistent and universal truth, something true in the past, something true in the future.

Something that will withstand the test of time. And in that sense will always be ageless, youthful, and energized, knowing what matters that protecting what matters and not. Getting pulled off course. And that for me is what it's saying. That you have to look to yourself for don't lose sight of that core so helpful.

The next card is how you should act outwardly like how you should go forth, but it is hierarchal Athens, but is reversed. And I often have to look at para collectors means the helper. So if this was the right way round, this would be the help of which means usual power for the good of multiple people, empathy, compassion, giving, and receiving, but this is upside down.

So this is the reverse of that. What this is saying is you've got to go forth recognizing that there are going to be obstructions and difficulties. And I think this makes more sense in a sense of the eternal. So this is saying you may be faced with. All sorts of hurdles and difficulties and things. And if this is what you've got to look to yourself for them, this is saying that you've got your power has to be, to overcome those difficulties.

The reason the square is there is because those difficulties may require other people to help you ever come at. You may not be the one. Because it's, the square is social it's about community and collection. So you may not be the one who has to solve all of the problem. There may be social dynamics or other people who might be able to help you overcome them.

So actually doing this with others is going to be an important part of how you will resolve and overcome these challenges. So don't go this alone. That's true on a lot of levels. I think there's always that sense of me feeling like I have to help everybody else. When we came in reverse, I was kind of happy because I was reading it like you don't have to help everybody else.

It is interesting that it's inverted because I think really one of the themes in Karen's life is that she's been the person to help everyone else. And so it makes sense to me that this is showing her, she needs to let other people help too, in order to make this. So the last card is what will be the outcome that you might be able to believe that possibly may others may not to come back to our definition of magic.

So the final card here. This is my favorite cop. This is so fear. I got Sophia too. Do you remember you remember? And I wear, I wear Sophia. Like I wear the energy of Sophia every day. We talked about this that's crazy town. Well, it's also interesting is in the story of the AI. And this whole cosmology, the final, the most practical, the most grounded pair that we're born with, the liters, which is your first card and Sophia, they are a pair.

This is a scissor G these two things go together. And in the story of the origin of the universe, Sophia wanted to create something, but she wanted to create it without the liters. And so she created man without the leaders, which means imperfect and so created this imperfect world. And that was the origin of the material world that we live in.

It was an undefined world and it was filled with imperfect things and other stuff. So Sophia is one of my favorite characters because she then tried to write everything. Anyway, I could go into Sophia. Quite a lot. Sophia means wisdom. This is saying that the outcome here will be abilities, skill, craft, and good judgment.

If you keep on this path, there is a whole load of knowledge and wisdom and experience that you will be generating and developing the pentagram here is the many sides. You will learn in lots of different ways in ways that perhaps expand you and then the downward facing triangle, which is that's the inner.

So it's the inner wisdom. It's the wisdom of self. And again, given what we've talked about today, the outcome here is actually finding something that is really true to you. I think because these two are together, the path you're on and where you're going to end is actually going to be a combination of these two.

So this is going to be a journey for you as much as it is a journey for other people. Wow. I almost don't know what to say. That is just, it just reflects exactly where, you know, we are, which I think is just so appropriate in this setting right now. So thank you so much. I'm looking for my notes. And I can't find them.

I know you, I definitely know you had Sophia. I know I had Sophia. Yeah. Outcome was, was definitely Sophia because we had a big conversation. He did. And I talked to Sophia every day, like the energy of Sophia and asking for wisdom and being able to teach wisdom and receive wisdom. So it's amazing to me to see.

You see that tangibly in that card to come up and Karen's reading. I know it came up in my reading as well. And to have that be where we're going. And again, one of the Follies of Sophia was that she tried to do something on her own, but actually it was only by getting back together with the liters and reestablishing that connection.

And in some ways the pairs are interesting because when this. Imperfect world was created, then all of the agents were separated and actually balance wholeness fullness. So the universe, the divine living is called the pleroma and it means fullness wholeness. It's about connecting these things back together.

And so bringing. The liters back with Sophia. There's no end to that. The constant perfection and the constant seeking of wisdom is something that is a maternal journey. It's also reflective of like how we feel about each other, both trying to go down our own paths and realized how have a vision. That is just so locked together.

So it's just, it is, couldn't have been a better sort of affirmation, I think for both of us too, like looking at that sign behind your head, where it has Robyn and Karen seeking and thinking of that as a scissor in its own self. Oh, you're right. I love it. Love it. All right. Let's do Robyn. We'll do me again with Karen.

Yeah. Way to stop shuffling. You can stop one, two, three. Just tell me. Which one first, which one second? Which one? Okay. You're gonna do the one on the right first, then the middle. And then yeah, you've got macaroni. We've already spoken about utopia. That's my car. That's

the right way up. Wow. Wow. I mean, there's a lot of cards in that deck. Come on people right. Way up means which, what is this place, right. This perfect place, this thing, this is defining the subject. So there's something going on with you forward facing. So it's, again, it's part of that discovery, that truth.

But it has the square, which is again, that's the social thing. So this is not bliss as in selfish list. This is with somebody else. This is with others, finding community findings, happiness. Does that say anything to you? Specific bodies is what I have created for myself over the last, I'd say year and a half to two years, which is this partnership.

And a fulfillment in what I'm doing on a daily basis that I was missing for quite some time. Yeah. So this is what I wrote in here. I think to be sought or aimed for, in some ways I haven't had an escape of freedom from evil and sin. There's something here that you're stepping out of a Karen's the opposite was you're trapped in.

So there's something, Hey, you're stepping out of. And that's the subject is like aiming for something. It's choosing to believe actually in myself and what I'm creating in something bigger and stepping out of fear is stepping out of fear of what people may think of, not succeeding a failure. And stepping into just what will be and believing that I'm here to teach something bigger.

And this is the right thing when we have these conversations and it points you to a specific aspect. So we could have looked at lots of different aspects of you and your thing that you're doing with Karen, but this is about that specific aspect. So the interesting thing is here. We're not just talking about the whole thing.

We're talking about your seeking of that place. This is the Cod rating is going to be about that. I think that frames it perfectly, because what I'm seeing is first of all, your absolute with what you said, Robyn is right. It's about stepping into the light and get to that place of tranquility, that exact place of bliss.

Karen, we talked earlier about the light and dark on the card. And just, as you said, stepping into the light, it made me. Go. Ooh, let's look, can you see the angle there? The light and dark is at that angle. That angle is that line there, which is liberation. Oh, wow. So fun. I mean, wow. Getting away from the thing that's painful, but also seeking that utopia around bliss is that relationship of liberation, but also revelations those two words.

We were just talking yesterday, right? About this feeling of confinement and how, like, what happened is just like. Can't take it anymore. Right. And like, when is, when are we going to get to our destination of this big project we want to launch to the world. So it's like wanting to be liberated from where she is.

Right. And what is it going to reveal itself to us? I mean, thinking about that aspect of your journey, what should you explore inwardly? This is a gap. Hey, interesting. I got paid is love. This is saying like, so love is this combination. The power of love that is in. So a gap is not airless whose sexual love.

In fact, the Greeks had probably about five or six different words for love. This is a more universal love a gap. Hey, was the love of loves. It is the love. That is the love of family. The love of other loving your fellow man. Loving even God, it's the universal love that connects all of us. And it's the highest form of love.

So what this is saying is that you've got to look to yourself for finding that love of other finding that love of people. Yes. I opened the book up. It says the feeling of love, desire, and affection to hold something in esteem, admiration, and wonder as spiritual and emotional connection with another or others inner desire or want.

One of the things that I've worked on over many years is that love of self. And then believing in what I want again, then I have certain things that I do and say every day, and going back to the first card, what I say is choose love over fear. And I say, love over fear, love over fear. So it's interesting to me that this is the card that I got is about.

Yeah, there's a vulnerability in loving because you have to really put yourself into that. That sort of universal love is on a questioning. It's throwing yourself in not second guessing and not hedging or not holding back. That is saying you've got to really, really grow in. You just have to have that faith that it will reward sometimes.

It's it's hard. That's where the fear comes in is like, if you're telling yourself love and fear, this is saying, go for love that you deserve it. And that you're deserving of it. The next one is outward. The how you act, how you should behave, what's your outward expression. And gnosis sometimes I wonder these cards and those, this is union.

This is the merit. This is. Is partnership, harmony, complementary other the shield. So it's the protection and it's the moving forward with that thing that matters basically saying go out with a complimentary other, the union is what keeps things going and, and Karen had it in burden. Yes. Yeah. That's right.

So I can read it. It says union, a coming together, bodies, union unity. As one marriage partnership, orgasm or climax, transcendence beyond intellect at one with realities, spirituality, and the universe, peace, harmony, and balance. Well again, so you'll have to translate that into how you go forth. So in, in this position, that Cod is about going forth.

In union in partnership, understanding that it's the complimentarity of the two of you. It's the strength that comes from union, not from being on your own. So again, your two readings are actually can be read across each other very much. What will be the ultimate outcome is hatrick costs, which is actually the father.

Now the father figure is an interesting figure. And again, this is something you're giving birth to the father gives and then has to let it go. So unlike a mother who is actually both of them have to let go eventually, but the mother is more of the nurturing and the file that really his only role is the protecting, making sure that the environment is such, that this thing can survive.

So what this is saying is you are giving birth to something, but your role here is not. As mother and nurturer, but actually a little bit the defender, the hero, really looking out for what matters, looking, looking out, I'm coming back to the conversation we had earlier, which Karen, you were much more about no, what matters and discovering that truth.

Whereas this is actually the other side, which is like, you're the defender. You're a little bit the hero in this narrative, superhero. This you've got some soup. Karen, do you have the writeup? I do. This is so perfect. It's really true. And authority figure. Respected and demanding of respect. So talk about outcome, right?

To stepping into the light fearlessly, doing it, taking it on with their creator or author of something, strength and a father's protection of his possessions and family. Heroism defending a worthy or valuable cause the center of boundaries established parameters within which you must work. Wow. It's like defending that this is us.

This is our authenticity. You're not going to tell me. Something else that it shouldn't be, that's pretty incredible boundaries. I think that for me, captures the heroism as well as, cause it's not a heroism in an egotistical way, but it's actually protecting. And again, you've got the shield thing, which is the protecting.

Symbols, but you've also got this multifaceted, so it's protecting on many sides. This is one of the most practical can I offer another interpretation as well? Only because I I'm the only one who had noticed besides my, I think it's another affirmation. I think you already know what I'm going to say. So Robyn's father is so paramount in her life.

He's not with us any longer, but he is the protector of her. From the other side, she has named her production company after him, like staring at him as we were talking. And I have to add the reason why we're actually working together is because of her father, because serendipitously I sent Robyn.

Presentation that I created about this big idea. I had that that has United us, and it had her father's birthday on the name of the file. So it was like that sign from above. It's a big number for me. I knew that Karen was the union and the fact that I got that card for the reasons that you have uncovered.

For what that means, but on a much more spiritual and higher level, the fact that he's part of the outcome that is pretty hearing that story of your father is like that that's the magic is what your father would want. This is what it is. And your father is. Part of this outcome, he's part of this journey.

And he's also part of where this will resolve. That makes me, that makes me want to cry. I mean, he's a partner in this over the last 10 years, he's been integral in opening my eyes to something that I can't see. And so, and you have been able to put so many of those things that I think. We can't see into something more tangible.

So that is just incredible, but that's how it ends. I'm hanging on your, every word because there's just so wrong. And I say all the time, there's so much to learn. There's so many layers of meaning that we, as human beings, we can't even see. And. This is just another way of really looking at our lives.

Think about how special of a message. This is like, how it fills us up with such life and hope. Thank you for all the work that you've done. And then I know you will continue to do, but the work that you've done to create these cards and this. Thinking and really uncovering from all of these texts. Thank you for all of that work.

Where should we direct people? Not good You can buy the cards. They're wonderful. Very much for telling my story. That's thank you for telling it. I really appreciate you very much fun, so much fun.

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