Seeking Center: The Podcast

Navigating Anxiety with Soul Therapy: Mental Health Meets Spirituality - Episode 158

• Robyn Miller Brecker, Karen Loenser, Amy Robbins • Season 2 • Episode 158

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Have you ever felt like life is throwing everything at you all at once—and instead of feeling centered, you're spinning out? You're not alone. 

Whether it’s anxiety bubbling up, emotional overwhelm, or fear of the unknown…these moments can feel anything but spiritual. But what if they actually are? 

This week, we’re digging into something that feels more essential than ever: the space where mental health and spirituality meet. What we like to say is Soul Therapy. 

And we’re asking the big questions, like: 

✨ How do our spiritual beliefs actually impact our mental well-being? 

✨ How can we blend therapy and spiritual practices to navigate anxiety and uncertainty? 

✨ The importance of recognizing your emotions, the value of intuition, and the role of soul contracts in personal growth. 

✨ And—this might be the biggest one—when life stirs something up, can we see it as an invitation to heal, process, and evolve? 

To help us explore all of this (and more), we’re welcoming back our dear friend and soul sister, Dr. Amy Robbins. Amy is a rare find—she’s a clinical psychologist and a spiritual intuitive, which means she sees the full spectrum of what it means to be human and divine. She's also the host of the popular podcast "Life, Death and the Space Between." 

In this episode, we’re talking about what it means to process uncertainty—and how to make that an intentional part of your spiritual journey. From fear to faith, triggers to transformation, Amy helps us explore how the uncomfortable emotions we face can actually become portals to something deeper and more meaningful.

You’ll walk away with insights and tools to help you feel more grounded, more connected, and maybe even a little more at peace with the unknown.

MORE FROM DR. AMY ROBBINS

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Robyn: [00:00:00] I'm Robyn Miller Brecker and I'm Karen Loenser. Welcome to Seeking Center, the podcast. Join us each week as we have the conversations and we, through the spiritual and holistic clutter for you, we'll boil it down to what you need to know now, we're all about total wellness, which to us needs building a healthy life.

Karen: On a physical, mental, and spiritual level, we'll talk to the trailblazers who'll introduce you to the practices, products, and experiences that may be just what you need to hear about to transform your life. If you're listening to this, it's no accident. Think of this as your seeking center and your place to seek your center.

Robyn: And for the best wellness and spiritual practitioners, experts, products, experiences, and inspo, visit theseekingcenter. com. Have you ever felt like life is throwing everything at you all at once? And instead of feeling centered, you're spinning out, you're not alone, whether it's anxiety bubbling up, emotional overwhelm, or fear of the unknown. These moments can feel anything but spiritual.

But [00:01:00] what if they actually are? This week we're digging into something that feels more essential than ever. The space where mental health and spirituality meet. what we like to say is soul therapy. And we're asking the big questions like, how do our spiritual beliefs actually impact our mental wellbeing?

How can we blend therapy and spiritual practices to navigate anxiety and uncertainty? And this might be the biggest one when life stirs something up. Can we see it as an invitation to heal process and evolve To help us explore all of this and more, we're welcoming back our dear friend and soul sister, Dr.

Amy Robbins. Amy is a rare find, she's a clinical psychologist and a spiritual intuitive, Which means she sees the full spectrum of what it means to be human and divine. She's also the host of the popular podcast, life, death, and the Space Between. In this episode, we're talking about what it means to process uncertainty and how to make that an intentional part of your spiritual journey from fear to faith.

Triggers to transformation. [00:02:00] Amy helps us explore how the uncomfortable emotions we face can actually become portals to something deeper and more meaningful. You'll walk away with insights and tools. to help you feel more grounded, more connected, and maybe even a little more at peace with the unknown.

Hi Amy. Hi Karen. 

Karen: Hi ladies. So good to see you. Oh my gosh, Robyn that intro, I just wanted the answers to all those questions. I do too. 

Amy: I hope I can provide at least something here. 

Robyn: You always do, Amy. You always do. And this is something that we've been talking about. In our personal conversations, because there is so much going on right now that is causing us to feel fearful and uncertain about what's going on in the future.

So how can we start to look at anxiety, fear, and uncertainty, and start to process it rather than suppress it?   

Amy: I think that when we think about anxiety and your [00:03:00] listeners. May have heard this before, in today's society, we have started to see anxiety as bad all the time, and that is not at all what it is.

Anxiety is a signal in our lives to pay attention, people talk about the fight, flight or freeze response. Anxiety historically. Used for those things, right? It was a warning to our system that something is wrong, we need to pay attention to it. What has happened over time is, one, the environment in which we're in is not as threatening as it used to be.  

When these systems developed evolutionarily, right? Like we didn't need to survive a tiger attack, but our system still thinks that's what's happening. So these bells that are ringing for us are ringing at such a high pitch, but the threat isn't the same level of threat that it once was.

But our brain, our primitive brain doesn't differentiate those things. [00:04:00] So we have that happening. We also have a society right now where we are constantly being flooded with fear. Everything that is spoken to us that we read, right? The way that it hits our systems is usually because it's instilling some sort of fear in us and we wanna know more.

How can we avoid That potential happening, whatever, it's, and so we are literally baited into fear constantly. So our systems are in this constant state of hyper arousal, which leaves us feeling like we are constantly constantly anxious, and we're not doing enough to down-regulate our nervous systems to help manage that anxiety.

And yes, things are. Really uncertain right now. And because they're uncertain, it feels very scary. But the belief that we actually ever have certainty in that I know. 

All: [00:05:00] Belief. It's true. 

Karen: Oh, it's just literally thinking that like we're never in that place and we always have this illusion that we can control somehow all of this and we can't.

And I think the other thing you bring up too, Amy, is like. Making conscious choices of what is really our fear and what's the fear that's just out there in, that's right. Like really make some conscious choices about what I wanna own and intake in terms of that fear versus being an observer to it.  

Amy: And Robyn and I talked about this. We talked a lot about what is getting projected, what each individual is projecting on this situation, and then whatever the situation is, and then that becomes an invitation really.

To turn that back on yourself and look deeper into, what is this bringing up for me? You use the word trigger. It is like, what is getting stirred up for you? Any situation and then looking at that as an invitation to look deeper into yourself.

Often people [00:06:00] call that the shadow or the parts of ourselves that we don't like to look at are often the parts of ourselves that get triggered and result in some sort of. Fear, response, anxiety maybe even depression. Like all of those experiences then become, as I see them, invitations into looking deeper, into being curious, into trying to deeper understand your own psyche.

Karen: And another word is mirror. We were using this word earlier, like using that word. Maybe not trigger so much, but what is it reflecting back at you as an opportunity to see something within yourself. That you can learn from. 

Robyn: Yeah. I think a simple example of that, which for people who haven't, let's say, been to therapy and or read certain books that talk about mirroring or reflecting back.

I feel like an example could be Is there someone in your life that does something that makes you very [00:07:00] frustrated, let's say? What is it about what that person says or maybe their actual energy that makes you upset?

Because most likely, to your point, Amy, when we talk about what shadow is, it's something that is within us that we don't love or we haven't faced. And so it's this invitation to your point and I think it's a very relevant example for most people. 'cause you can identify that person, right?

Like we all usually have one or two in our lives. And once you can actually see that and then see that in yourself and start to actually acknowledge it. That person either becomes less significant or that doesn't bother you as much. And so if you can apply that to other things going on in our world, doesn't mean it's all gonna go away, but you can at least process it differently.  

Amy: And then that gives you a deeper understanding of yourself and you don't have to like. These parts of ourselves, like there are [00:08:00] definitely parts of ourselves. I have them too, that I'm not super proud of or that I don't wanna look at, but we have to be able to acknowledge those pieces of ourselves as part of the whole.

Otherwise those pieces end up getting repressed. Fragmented off, shut down. And it's like a fine wine, right? You need the whole thing together in order for it to taste really good. And you gotta give all those parts, places to breathe. And if you don't let these shadow darker parts of yourself that you don't like being mirrored by, whatever, if it's a friendship, if it's what's happening in the world.

That again, just becomes another opportunity to take a look at, okay, what is this about for me? Why is this bothering me so much? And how can maybe one, what can I do about it personally, but also then is there an opportunity here for me to do something bigger than just looking at it myself? But is there a way for me to help [00:09:00] heal through.

Volunteering or if we're talking about the bigger global picture getting involved in an organization where I can really try to help make change. I think when people feel like there's no hope is when they really feel stuck. And when you feel like that's no hope, it's because you haven't seen that there is potential opportunity to take a step to make a difference.

Choice for yourself, for the world, for whatever it is. And there is nothing worse than feeling stuck and there's no opportunity for anything to be different.   

Karen: And I think part of what you said resonates too, because it is a balancing act, isn't it, Amy? So from a psychological perspective, what do you consider, like normal fear or healthy fear in a way? And when does it become something that needs more support than that? 

Amy: Yeah, I think that's a great question and a great differentiation that I'll make when your anxiety, depression, whatever it is, mood, however you wanna define it, starts [00:10:00] interfering with your everyday functioning. So if you are so paralyzed by. What's happening in the world that you literally can't get to work or you get to work and you cannot stop thinking about everything that's happening in the world.

Everything that's bad in the world. So you can't focus on your job. Obviously if you can't get outta bed in the morning, if you can't really conduct your everyday activities that you normally are used to doing, that's when we really wanna think about. There's something more going on here with you than just what I call everyday anxiety. We are all gonna have everyday anxiety, the goal in life is not to diminish anxiety completely. It's to use your anxiety or whatever it is, your depression, your sadness. If you're feeling the world is really heavy right now and you're feeling really down and sad about that and it's not paralyzing to you, how can you use that?

As an opportunity to do something [00:11:00] different, to change things, to make a difference to, like we talked about, go out in the world, do something different with this feeling that you feel. But if it becomes so paralyzing to you that you literally can't function in your everyday life, then that's when we really have deeper problems.

And I think we have over pathologized. So many ways, a lot of our feelings that we no longer recognize that some of these feelings and experiences are normal reactions to life circumstances, right? If someone you love dies, we would expect that there is a period of deep grief, sadness, and maybe even some depression.

That's not something that necessarily needs to be medicated, needs to be shoved down. What we want is for that to be processed and worked through so you aren't running from these feelings, but recognizing yes, there, there are situational depressions because of a situation I have. I'm reacting in a way that makes [00:12:00] perfect sense.  

And we really wanna look more deeply at Okay. Is this within the realm of what most people would, how most people would respond to this situation? 

Robyn: That's a really good example. And I would say for where we are right now, right? Things I. In our world feel more uncertain than they have in our lifetimes, I'd say.

, so , for instance, our financial market right now is on a complete rollercoaster, right? And so if you are someone who gets really anxious about money, what would be the. In quotes, normal response to what you're seeing.

And then what would then indicate, you might need some other help. 

Amy: I think if you are someone that is checking the market every, you're literally watching the ticker, right? Yeah. You can't step away from it. you're not sleeping because of it, if your appetite is impacted because of it.

If you can't peel [00:13:00] yourself away from it to do anything else, then we're bordering on problematic. And I'm not talking about for one day Exactly. I think that this has only been a week. That's right. How do you feel 

Karen: about denial? Can that. Be also like a protection mechanism that people, it's almost like the opposite of the anxiety that maybe some people go into that because from a woo perspective, some people could say, oh, we're just looking at, through rose colored glasses, or we're just living in the present moment.

We're not thinking about the future. how do you balance wanting to stay positive, and not being in total denial of the experience. 

Amy: So trying to debate how clinical you want me to get here. So denial is a defense mechanism. So we have psychological defense mechanisms that span a range oftentimes based on your early childhood experiences, how what we call primitive, so more primitive defenses.

. But tend to be associated , with [00:14:00] deeper pathology. Denial can be very healthy in certain circumstances. Like our mind only will allow us to take in what? We can process, This is why a lot of people repressed trauma because their mind can't possibly process all of that.

And so what the mind does is it either represses it completely so you don't have a memory of it. Or you can only recall certain bits and pieces of it that you can process so that it doesn't completely overwhelm your system and shut you down so that you're dysfunctional, basically. And I think when we're thinking about, in this world that we're living in.

 I would wanna look holistically, like how much is this person completely out there in la land? where they're like, oh, nothing's wrong, everything's wonderful. There's no issues. Or are they saying there's nothing I can do about the situa. There's nothing that I'm gonna do [00:15:00] today that's gonna make a difference in the stock market, right?

Am I gonna pull my money out? Am I gonna put more money in? Those are questions to ask your financial advisor or to, research or whatever. But it's really about. Are people saying look in this exact moment, there's nothing I'm gonna do, so I'm not gonna get caught up in the frenzy of it all.

Yeah, that's not denial. That's a realistic response. To the circumstance, if you're bearing your head in the sand and saying, everything's wonderful. Yeah. and there are people who do think everything's wonderful right now, and that's, just a matter of perspective. Yeah. Like for some people they think this is the greatest thing and for others they think is the worst thing. And the reality is, I heard, I think it was Scott I'm gonna mispronounce his name. He's a professor Gallen, Callenburg or something who said, things are never as bad as you think they are.

And they're never as good as you think they're. And I think that's really wise. It's like we, we can get so [00:16:00] thrown into the soup. It is literally a soup of anxiety and fear right now. Yeah. Yeah. if you wanna talk energy, right? If you're swimming in that energetic.

Experience all the time, then you're gonna feel that. 

Karen: , and in the question. I think for me, just in thinking about my own way of reacting to things, I do get anxious, but I think sometimes at times what I do is I just try to look away from the situation because.

Of the fear, and then I get into that it's not actually denial, but it's almost stepping back because I don't want to look in that mirror and I don't wanna see what it has to teach me. So it's finding that balance of Yeah. know there is something for me to know if I'm feeling the fear, but also not going too far into it, and yet at the same time not stepping back so far that I don't take a moment to try to feel it.

So it's really. It's a really difficult balance to find your footing in this. 

Amy: Yeah, and when we think about emotional regulation or [00:17:00] dysregulation, these are skills that. Many of us never really learned. And so what kids are learning it now in school, right? They have like social emotional learning and that's what we're trying to teach people is how to regulate their emotions.

So actually, Karen, what you're doing in some ways is really healthy. It's, can I look at this enough that I feel it, but not too much that it completely overwhelms me. 

All: Yeah. 

Amy: And that's each person has to know themselves and know Where that sort of balance is for them and where the scales could potentially get tipped because you don't wanna tip into that place because that's really when we see an increase in mental health symptoms.

And symptoms are literally, I say this all the time when I'm talking to people, symptoms. As we know them in the DSM, what's that mean? What's DSM? The DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Health Disorders. Okay. So it's this big giant book that a lot of people [00:18:00] get together and they say when someone has anxiety, they meet five of these nine criteria.

I couldn't even recite it right now, but it's do they have a consistent, like if it's depression, do they have a consistent feeling for two weeks or more of these things? Yeah, less appetite, difficulty engaging in activities. Maybe a. Feeling of disconnection from loved ones or people, and so it's a list.  

What that is to me is really a way for people to communicate around what they're feeling. But it doesn't really describe to me specifically why that situation is so impactful to you, Karen, and maybe not to Robyn. Why are you responding in that way? But Robyn is responding differently.

And that's where the work happens okay, let's better understand. Karen, why is what's happening in the market so triggering to you, but Robyn's okay with it. And then we can go deeper [00:19:00] into maybe, Karen, your family had a really difficult relationship with money and you knew what it was like to lose everything.

Or growing up, you never had financial stability and for the first time in your life you feel like you have financial stability and this is really sending you into a potential tailspin around. Oh my God, this could all be taken from me. And meanwhile, Robyn comes at it with, she has been saving for a long time.

Her family were, they were excellent savers. They didn't have risky investments. She maybe never had that up and down with money, but always trusted that money would. Be there for her. So you're gonna have very different reactions to the same situation.

Yeah. And that's where the work happens, is oh, let's better understand this. So it's not so much that Robyn might be in denial about it. She's not in denial. She's coming at it from a much different inner world experience than you are. 

All: [00:20:00] Yeah. And 

Amy: then that's where the work can really happen in terms of unraveling and Unpacking what's going on for each of us and why some people are, feeling oh my God, my life is over. And other people are like, it's gonna be okay. I'm gonna ride this out. I'm just taking this as an example, and I trust that the markets are gonna come back and everything's gonna be okay.

Robyn: Yeah. And I think it goes back also to what we talked about at the top of this conversation, which. Is we don't really acknowledge that we don't have control in almost anything. The only thing we have control of is how we react. That is the only thing we, how do we react in any given situation.

And I think to your point, we are being thrown in this soup of anxiety and fear on a level that most of us have never felt. Partly because of technology, And the fact that from an energetic perspective, [00:21:00] even if you decide not to turn your television or your laptop on in terms of watching something in the news, It's just in the energetic air, so you're gonna feel it, 

Amy: right? Even if you're out, like we were just on spring break, I was on a train. The people in the train car, one car over, I heard talking about what was happening in the States. Now I was in Europe and I wanted to wear earmuffs and be like, no, I'm on vacation.

I don't wanna think about it. I have done what I need to do to protect myself. But Robyn to your point, you go to. Dinner you, even if you are not talking about it, other people. That's right. Exactly. It's just out there. It's out there. And so energetically, again, this is like the soup that everybody is swimming in right now.

And it's like a ping pong game. All those energies are playing off of each other and. It's a lot. I always describe this experience for myself when I knew I could never do this again. I volunteered to do school tours once at my [00:22:00] kids' elementary school for the incoming students or the \ , potential incoming parents, right?

So these are all parents who are hyper anxious about where their kid is gonna go to preschool. And I left that meeting and I said to myself, I can never do this again. Because the anxiety was so high and I was just it was like this is too much for me and I manage people's feelings all day long.

And 

Robyn: clinical psychologist, I love it, 

Amy: but I manage it one-on-one. And I often know this happened to me at my retreat too. I know what I'm dealing with. Yeah, like I know my patience. Feelings, anxieties. I know how they manifest. I know how I feel them in my body to then be able to help them better understand them, so I know how to use my body as a tool and my mind as a tool in a one-on-one situation.

And this is why it's so important for everybody to understand this, because everybody's going out [00:23:00] into these spaces where the energy is intense right now. It's heightened anxiety, it's fear, it's sadness, There's so much fear, right? It's existential questions every group seems they're to be having like these existential crises of like, how are we gonna continue to exist in this world?

So these are really big scary things that can potentially happen and we need to take a step back and recognize my point in telling that story about the anxiety is. Recognizing what is mine and what is someone else's. That's 

Robyn: right. 

Amy: Because so often energetically things get confused and I think when people are doing their own, both psychological work, but also energetic work to recognize, and in that situation that I just talked about, it was easy for me to separate.

My anxiety from there is because I had zero reason to be anxious about anything. My kids were in school, like this wasn't [00:24:00] stirring up anything for me in that exact moment around whether my kids were gonna be in school or not be in school. So I was able to say, okay, this is not mine. I don't need to hold this because I'm not working with these people.

I don't need to hold this for anybody. And can really separate, and then that again is an opportunity for me to then go back and say, okay, now thinking about Why did I get so stirred up by everybody else's anxiety in this situation, even though it wasn't mine? Is there an opportunity to more deeply understand what that stirred up for me?

Karen: Yeah. Yeah. That stepping back is so important because I very often that empath. And I think in a lot of us tend, we take on the emotions and the energy of the people that we're with, and then all of a sudden we're like, oh, maybe I should be worried about that. Maybe this is something for me to be concerned about.

Why am I not worried about this? And rather than stepping back and going, is that really [00:25:00] mine? Is that really how I feel? Or is that just their worry? So it's learning how to balance that. and then using some of our spiritual tools, like our intuition, like being present with ourselves, like looking within and really doing that inventory so we really know ourselves first before we that 

Robyn: so how can we start to look at some of these examples and triggers? As an invitation to looking in, how does somebody do that?   

Amy: I think, Karen, you just addressed this, first noticing, and I think our bodies are great tools at noticing, They notice before our mind is going to kick into gear with the fear, anxiety, racing thoughts, whatever it is. However, it presents our bodies are going to manifest often. What we're feeling. So if you have body awareness, you can start to use that as your first tool. So I'm a huge jaw clincher, so am I [00:26:00] feeling like tightness in my jaw, in my hips?  

Okay energetically am I either tuning into, picking up on what's mine, what's someone else's, and how can I begin To process that, to think about it. Maybe it's journaling, maybe it's moving your body to release some of this emotion. And I think you both are providing people with such incredible access to amazing different tools.

And that's really what in the course that I teach and what you all are doing is to give people. An array of potential tools that they can use and then find the tools that work for them to help. Again, I'm all about downregulating your system because when you're in this state of fight, flight, freeze that we can't do anything in that.

State because our literal mind is just about surviving. And when we're just about [00:27:00] surviving, everything else shuts down. I don't know, for me, like when I get anxious, I can't eat, I can't sleep. There's a reason for that because your other systems can't work appropriately because you're literally like, I just need to save my life.

Robyn: It's true. You really do get frozen.   

Amy: so your entire body moves into a protective space that is all about keeping you alive. So in that sense, let's say 

Robyn: at that point you recognize I'm in this state of feeling like I just need to survive. I really can't move.

I'm not even allowing myself to feel at that point. Do you scream into a pillow? Do do you cry? I think those are the things for each person that they have to figure out. Like allowing the energy to move through you. And that may mean. In this case, you're crying for an hour.

Let it out. And then do something more productive. I don't know. For me it is writing down what is it that [00:28:00] is making me so upset and then I might reach out to a friend, or I, obviously in our case, we have a lot of practitioners that I very much trust that I can reach out and say, how do I move through this?

What can I do? Or in case of let's say, it's something with finances, you might reach out to somebody and say, what do I do so that I can feel a little more stable, a little more. Secure and comfortable with this right?

 Information usually is power, right? So if I understand I have this and this could happen, but this is where I'm at. So you take back control in your own way. And that's all anyone can do, right? So anyway, the point is in bringing that up, you need to figure out how do you get unfrozen, 

Amy: And that's why I can say all the potentials of what can be done, but ultimately each person who's listening needs to find for them. And this is so important because I think that, and I used to be this way too in my clinical work, it was like there is only [00:29:00] one way to do this and it's this way.

That's not true. There are so many different ways people can heal. That's what you're providing people here. And so if I'm not a journaler, I don't love to journal. So if someone says to me, the way to get out of this is you need to journal. I'm gonna be like, yeah, no, that doesn't resonate with me. if they say to me, by walking in nature, by putting your feet in the ground by, I live in the city by getting out of the city, walking by the lake, that's gonna balance your ions and your electromagnetic field.

That resonates with me. That works for me. If someone says, go do yoga, that works for me. And so it's just so important for people to find what works for them, what moves the energy for them.  

For some people it's. Laying on the floor, Karen does that. 

Karen: does that. I feel I love to lay on the grass if possible, but I do. I'll pick the floor. The other thing I'll often do, because sometimes you're in a meeting, sometimes you're in a place where you don't even wanna be seen getting anxious.

[00:30:00] I always tell people the breath is the best way to do it. Just breathe deep and Breathe it out as much as you can. And drink a lot of water because there's something about the ions in the water that's always calming. And this woman who used to do something called hin, which is it's like a reiki practice on my son, taught me to hold my thumb.  

in the muscles of your thumb and the nerve endings of your thumb, there's something very soothing and calming because it's almost like you got yourself and you can sit in a meeting and do that, 

the breathing and just drinking a little bit of extra water and holding that thumb, it just makes me conscious of my anxiousness it's okay. 

We're okay right now. the pendulum always tends to go to the worst case scenario, when we're in this kind of energy. And it's always helpful to look back on your life experience and go you know what?

90% of the time everything worked out just fine. And so the odds are it's going to be okay 

Amy: and Oftentimes, my therapist said this to me years ago, don't borrow worry. And I [00:31:00] just resonated with me and I use it all the time with my patients now. It's don't take on what's not yours.

'cause to your point, the thing that you think is gonna happen is often not the thing that does, but the thing you couldn't have even imagined would happen is the thing that happens. 

And you're not gonna respond any differently if you spent all this time worrying about it.

And it happens versus it just happens. And I get and I know that's really hard for people who are worriers to wrap their mind around because there is a belief system in the worry that if I worry enough either . There's magical thinking around that. If I worry enough, then in some way it will either A, prevent it from happening, or B, when it does happen, won't be as bad as I intended, as I think it will feel. And also we have to remember our feelings do not last forever really. Emotions are energy in motion, and they tend to last at most 90 seconds at [00:32:00] most. 

Robyn: I'm so glad you brought up the worry and what you just said about emotions, because I have the last, I don't know, 15 or 20 years thought about. Someone said to me, worry is the most wasted emotion, and I come from. A mother who still to this day is the biggest worrier on the planet.

And I think it's for the reasons you said. I think in her mind she thought she was helping both protect herself and my sister and I by just continuing to worry when it does absolutely nothing. And so it's one of those things that I very much am conscious of. I catch myself when I'm in that place of it's really not gonna do anything. And to your point about. Emotions. Being energy in motion. It makes me very much go back to my time spent with Eckhart Tolle and then even since that time, rereading his books and listening to the podcasts because there's so much about.

The way that we [00:33:00] process our emotions and the thoughts versus feelings 

Amy: And that's, where meditation can be really useful as a practice. And because what it allows you to do is to put space between your thoughts and how you respond to your thoughts.

So you're able to step back and observe them and not get swept up in the waves of them. 

Robyn: That's such Untethered Soul. Oh my God. I was literally, I was gonna say two books that if you're listening right now, everybody should read is A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle, an Untethered Soul by Michael Singer. So I'm so glad you like, oh gosh, 

Karen: it's the whole, yeah, because the Michael Singer book in particular really helped me because it has you imagine emotion, worry, all of it as a river. Yeah. And you actually getting out of the river and watching the river go by, rather than being in the river and. That's always something I try to remind myself too.

It's okay, I don't have to be in the river. I can [00:34:00] be watching the river and watch it go by. And that's a feeling of both relief and empowerment because you're not being literally swept away by all those emotions. 

Amy: And the river is insane when you can step back and watch it. Yeah, we're 

Karen: always trying to go in the wrong direction.

Like we're trying to fight the river 

Amy: and there's sticks in the river and rocks in the, , when you step back and you can watch your thoughts, it's almost comical. Because you're like, oh my God, like what is happening in this mind of mind? It's fascinating to me when you step back and watch, because you cannot get over one, how rapid it moves, and two, when it does move, what is in there?

What is going on?   

Karen: Yeah. And is that we are not our thoughts. Exactly. Big. It took me forever to get that, and I still grapple with it because you do, you feel so connected to them. But if you can, I have it actually written here on my [00:35:00] desk, so I remind myself of that all the time.

It's okay, that's not really me. That's not me. I don't have to own those. I don't have to embrace those. I don't have to make them part of my mantra every day. Ooh, that is a huge help as well. 

Amy: And even in how we define any sort of mental health. I am anxious. You are feeling anxious, right?

I'm depressed. You're feeling depressed, but you are not that It is 

Robyn: key. and to what we're all saying, right? The way that I think the three of us think about things. We are a soul living in this body, having this experience in this lifetime. So therefore. We are not our thoughts, right?

We are our soul and we can observe those thoughts. And we are a personality, We have a personality within this body, but if you can start to look at things on that level, it does help to then deal with the fear. It does. It does. When we start to look at things that way, it does make things a bit more manageable.  

Amy: And then if we [00:36:00] think about from the perspective of the soul. Soul contracts, we each chose to be here at this time for our soul to grow. So why did we choose to reincarnate in this space and time to be in this zeitgeist in this world right now? That's right. What is our soul working on?

That can show up. Personality form, right? Like maybe you do have to work through issues of feeling like you're enough and that you're worthy. And so when the stock market does this, what the stock market's doing, that is really a soul lesson. and the presentation of anxiety becomes, or the symptoms that you're experiencing that look like anxiety are the call of your soul.

You must pay attention to otherwise, see you back here. 

Robyn: to your point, one of the things too that we're always doing is we're doing our own touching base with spirit in general. To get [00:37:00] downloads for everybody and. We chose to be here, we're equipped to be here.

We actually are strong enough to be here if you can look at it that way. And yes, we chose to be here right at this moment to deal with and to evolve hopefully, where we are. Yes. And that's where certain aspects of spirituality. And certain modalities, like past life regression, if having an energy practitioner who specializes in looking where you might have past life trauma or even trauma from, early in this lifetime is still stuck and it is coming up in ways now when there is this overabundance of fear all around, it's triggering even more, right?

So if you can have, and look at and talk to trusted. Practitioners that might be able to help you take a look and in a past life experience, the three of us have had. You can actually see it for yourself. I know in my own life I have [00:38:00] abandonment issues that span lifetimes, and so when certain things trigger in this lifetime, I recognize in it.

And it doesn't mean that by recognizing it just goes away like this is something I have to continue to work on in this lifetime and probably beyond, but at least I'm aware of it. I can understand and where it comes from and I can. Cope with it a little bit better 

Amy: each time, but maybe you are breaking when we talk about transgenerational.

Patterns. That's right. Or patterns, your soul carries with you over the course of lifetimes. Maybe there's an opportunity then not to repeat that pattern. That's so true. And in knowing that you have these issues, you don't what we call in the psychological space, enact them in areas of your life.

Let's say when Jeff leaves, he goes on a business trip and you don't hear from him for a day. Someone with abandonment issues that aren't worked through might call him incessantly. And in calling him [00:39:00] incessantly, they are saying, I don't trust you.

All: And 

Amy: then in saying, I don't trust you. Over time, perhaps the relationship dissolves. It doesn't work because in you trying to manage your own issues of abandonment. You then basically fulfill this prophecy, which pushes him away from you because you make him feel like you don't trust him. And then it leads to all other kinds of problems.

And so you can say I know these, I have these abandonment issues and that's why I do all of these things. Or you can say, I know I have these abandonment issues. maybe there are things that Jeff can do to help me. Yeah. He can check in with me. That's right. He can, do things like that.

But if he doesn't, my first assumption isn't he's leaving me. And then you can work through that in this life. It doesn't mean that sometimes when he leaves and you don't hear from him, that feeling doesn't still come up. But how you respond to it is different. And that's how we break these patterns of Oh, true soul, pro soul [00:40:00] contracts or intergenerational trauma.  

you contracted with him perhaps to work through this and if he responds differently or you respond differently, right? This is where I believe we have free will. you can either heal that part of yourself or you continue to create those patterns. And this is why a soul contract with someone is so important is because you can have an opportunity to work together to heal different parts of yourselves.

But you have to be aware of those parts of yourselves. Yeah. In order to heal them, and so that you're not just responding. Out of that fear of abandonment. 

Robyn: Yeah. And in my case, my abandonment is someone's just gonna die on me. So it's more that than that they're gonna willingly leave.

Do you know what I mean? And that spans in all relationships. I just think someone can just die on me in, someone did. 

Karen: Exactly. So that's, yeah. But I think that's also a really good example Robyn too, because of how our life experiences. Can give us opportunities to see that isn't the case.

Yeah. [00:41:00] Correct. You have had someone die in you, but you've had many people who have not. 

Robyn: That's right. 

Karen: So it's a really good grounding on all the fear that you have really, because. Again, that 90% of the time it's not gonna be as bad as you think it's going to be.

it's easy for the pendulum to swing that way because of the fear. And so if we can step out of the river and not go to that extreme of thinking, oh he's gonna walk out the door and be run over by, a truck. It's true. Whereas it's like he's gonna leave, but he's gonna come back because he always does.

It's that opportunity to make the choice. It's just getting ourselves to get to that place where we can be that a little bit more logical in that experience of, most of the time it is okay. Most of the time it is just fine. Yeah. 

Amy: But I think it, also speaks to when we have such a abrupt trauma How in that moment rewires our whole brain. It 

Robyn: does. It does, and honestly, I'm so grateful to these conversations, to all the [00:42:00] practices over the last 15, 20 years that I've adopted into my life and the work that I've been doing, because it has changed my life to my, it has rewired it again.

And I still continue to have to work on it, but I think it's an example of how something like that can reverberate in our everyday world and how everything in our world right now may be triggering these other elements for people in their own lives that are very personal, right?  

And before we go, there's one more question I wanted to get to, which is. How can intuition play into how we process fear and anxiety? I think that's something that the three of us talk about all the time is our own intuition.

, we know, we're very intuitive and so is everybody else. If you're willing to really. Be aware of it. So how does that play into what's going on today? 

Amy: I think the first thing people have to be able to do is distinguish intuition from fear. That is key.

Because how do you do that? Yeah. [00:43:00] How do 

Robyn: you do that? 

Amy: for me, intuition feels instant and the minute a feeling gets connected to it, I know it's no longer intuition, it's my fear or whatever it is. So it's literally it's like, could be like a split second download that just feels like I know.  

But then once any feeling or fear or anything else is connected to it, I'm now out of intuition and into my mental. Space. So is intuition ever fear?

\ no I feel like intuition is just knowing that doesn't mean that what you know might not be scary. That's true. But in that minute of knowing, it shouldn't have emotion attached to it. Gotcha. It just is. That's helpful. That's how I. Experience it. 

But the, it literally can change in the course of a second.

Yes. So you have to be able to know yourself enough to know, wait, I heard that and now my body's clamping down, or I'm clinching my jaw, or whatever it is. [00:44:00] And then it doesn't mean what you heard wasn't an intuitive hit. It just moved into a space of oh no. Now what? 

Karen: It's if you walk into a room and it's, and you know somebody's been talking about you.  

I know they're talking and then the, oh, what were they saying? 

Robyn: Yeah. You start to get self-conscious. That's when it moves. 

I think that actually.

Robyn: Is really important for us to be talking about and almost ending on today because we know there's gonna be more conversations that we're gonna have around how to cope with uncertainty and how to bridge spirituality and psychology. 

Amy: Yeah, and I think, it is just like Laura Day who does a lot of intuitive.

She's like very clear, there is zero feeling attached to intuition. Zero. It's true.   

Robyn: I dunno about you. Like I do like on a daily basis, get certain hits for me. It comes in like almost a whisper. And it will say, call this person. And there's no emotion attached to it. And I don't know where it comes from or read this thing or remember to tell Jeff that I can't, it comes out of [00:45:00] nowhere.

And it sounds insane, 

Amy: And there's no emotion attached to it. you're not like the minute you slip into, oh my God, where do I need to call this person? Why do I need to call them? Is something wrong? That doesn't mean what you got wasn't an intuitive hit. It just means now you are applying all your own personality history early childhood stuff, whatever it is.

And for you Robyn it might be, oh my God, did something happen to this person? Why do I have to call them? 

Robyn: That's right. 

Amy: And then you're slipping into fear. So I think You made the point beautifully. It's just this boom split second of knowing no emotion.

The minute there's emotion attached to it, feelings attached to it, fear attached to it, you've moved away from that intuitive and 

Karen: it might give you an action to actually take to help you, right? Oh, for sure. I should call my brother and ask him take a look at my portfolio, or, maybe I should go and get that little mole checked on.

Robyn: For me, I would say 90% of the time they're reminders to me [00:46:00] like, yeah I'll be getting in bed and I'll have sent an email or done something or scheduled something to be posted, let's say, and I'll get this like right before, make sure you checked this like out of nowhere. And then I go and check and I'm like, oh, I didn't do XY.

Yeah. I look at them as like little reminders. That is 90% of the time is what they are. And like the most positive, they always help me. They almost always almost help me, but they don't have emotion to it. it is very, it's like a knowing. Yeah.

 It is a knowing . I love that. This was chock full people. 

Amy: Yeah. And I feel like we didn't even scratch the surface. No, 

Karen: there's so much more. I love the practical you brought Amy. It's so helpful. It's the day-to-day need to know,   

Robyn: Yeah. And really helping us all better understand.

Fear and then how to cope with it. And we all feel really passionate about combining spirituality with psychology. And [00:47:00] we so look forward to more of these conversations to navigate the world that we're living in. And also just navigate our own personal lives. Yeah. And our own soul evolvement.

That is what we're here to do. And so grateful that we get to do this together. 

Amy: Me too. I always love these conversations, so thank you. Great. So thank you for providing this platform and for having me be a part of it. 

Robyn: Thank you. And for everyone listening, check out Amy's podcast if you haven't, life, death, and the space between. You can also visit her website, Dr. Amy Robbins. That's R-O-B-B-I-N s.com. She has. Tons of offerings on her site and let us know too if you have any questions or feedback for us.

We wanna hear them and we'll be back together at some point very soon. 

Amy: Thanks ladies. Thank you.