The Practice That Works When Nothing Else Can (Oneika Mays) - Episode 223

This week's guest lives at the intersection of real life and deep inner work. Meet Oneika Mays, a meditation teacher, yoga instructor, and the author of Sit With Me, A No BS Journey to Mindfulness and Meditation. It is a book that honestly says what so much of wellness culture quietly ignores.

Meditation isn't for the calm. It's for the messy. It's a your-life-cracked open, and now what? kind of book. For nearly 15 years, Oneika has been teaching mindfulness and loving kindness. From yoga studios and hospitals to spaces, most teachers have never entered, like Rikers Island Correctional Facility. She's helped people who'd been told they didn't deserve care, discover something radical, they could be kind to themselves.

Her work centers around accessibility, compassion, and real world practice, not perfection. And her book is part memoir, part guidebook, all about showing up exactly as you are. Not more zen, not calmer, just you. And her passion for this work comes from her own experience. When her own life shattered through personal tragedy, mindfulness and yoga became part of her survival.

So unpack love and kindness with us. The no BS of meditation and why these practices are for everybody, not just for the peaceful ones. It's time for you to sit with Oneika Mays.

MORE FROM ONEIKA MAYS

• Visit oneikamays.com to find about her book, events and offerings. 
• Follow @oneikamays

Visit seekingcentercommunity.com for more with Robyn + Karen and many of the guides on Seeking Center: The Podcast. You'll get access to live weekly sessions, intuitive guidance, daily inspiration, and a space to share your journey with like-minded people who just get it.

You can also follow Seeking Center on Instagram @theseekingcenter.

Transcript

Robyn: [00:00:00] I'm Robyn Miller Brecker and I'm Karen Loenser. Welcome to Seeking Center, the podcast. Join us each week as we have the conversations and we, through the spiritual and holistic clutter for you, we'll boil it down to what you need to know now, we're all about total wellness, which to us needs building a healthy life.

Karen: On a physical, mental, and spiritual level, we'll talk to the trailblazers who'll introduce you to the practices, products, and experiences that may be just what you need to hear about to transform your life. If you're listening to this, it's no accident. Think of this as your seeking center and your place to seek your center.

Robyn: And for the best wellness and spiritual practitioners, experts, products, experiences, and inspo, visit theseekingcenter. com. Today's guest lives at the intersection of real life and deep inner work, and she's exactly the teacher so many of us think we're not ready for until we are. Oneika. Mays is a meditation teacher, yoga instructor, and the author of Sit With Me, A [00:01:00] No BS Journey to Mindfulness and Meditation. A book that honestly says what so much of wellness culture quietly ignores.

Meditation isn't for the calm, it's for the messy, it's a, your life cracked open. And now what kind of book. For nearly 15 years, Oneika has been teaching mindfulness and loving kindness. From yoga studios and hospitals to spaces, most teachers have never entered, like Rikers Island Correctional Facility, where she helped people who'd been told they didn't deserve care, discover something radical, they could be kind to themselves.

Her work centers around accessibility, compassion, and real world practice, not perfection. And her book is part memoir, part Guidebook, all about showing up exactly as you are. Not more zen, not calmer, just you. And her passion for this work comes from her own experience. When her own life shattered through personal tragedy, mindfulness and yoga became part of her survival.

Today we're unpacking [00:02:00] love and kindness. The no BS of meditation and why these practices are for everybody, not just for the peaceful ones. Let's sit with Oneika Mays. Hi, Oneika. 

Oneika: Hi. Hi. I'm so excited to see you and talk with you, Robin and Karen. 

Karen: Oh, we're so excited to have you here and hear this beautiful story that you have.

Amazingly captured. I've never first of all been so drawn to a book just by its cover alone, but the title and the subtitle sit with me and Know BS journey into mindfulness meditation. You had us at Hello right there. 

Robyn: And you say that meditation came to you the long way around.

Yes. Can you share what that journey has looked like for you? 

Oneika: Oh boy. Yes. I found yoga when I was working at Barnes and Noble and it touched me, but I wasn't ready to embrace it until I really needed it. When I had a personal tragedy and somebody who I loved died [00:03:00] unexpectedly.

And when yoga finds you, it will actually still be there for you when you need it. And so I found myself back on my yoga mat and I was in a yoga class in Manhattan. A hot yoga class where bodies are like right next to each other and a yoga teacher said to me, you can change or you can be comfortable, but you can't do both at the same time.

Robyn: Oh, so good. 

Karen: Okay. The day, 

Oneika: and I remember. Just crying and thinking, oh, okay, I'm gonna start all over. And I became a yoga teacher after that because I realized I needed to get uncomfortable and I needed to change my life. And even after I became a yoga teacher, I had a yoga bug because everybody did at that point.

I actually wrote an open letter to her and I didn't even know that she would read it. I didn't even think that she would read it, but she replied to it. And she said she remembered me and she saw the change in me. And I remember I felt so [00:04:00] seen and naked again, but that's what the practice did.

it really changed me and I was just so grateful. And then just once again, these things just kept affirming that I was on the right path. and it just showed me that. Your practice is there for you and you can't escape it, and your life needs to happen the way that it needs to happen, I need it to fall apart to come back together.

And that's what I mean that there's no BS around it. You can't fake your way around it. And sometimes life has to fall apart for it to come back together. 

Karen: did you have this epiphany moment on the yoga mat one day where it was just like, oh this is calling me, this is like a spiritual journey.

Oneika: Yeah. It's when I did this Rodney Yee VHS tape, so I'm really dating myself that I popped it in. And I remember taking a breath, just standing in my living room and I felt like the shiver and I really felt. Seen, but it scared me at the same time because I was somebody who was always really protecting herself.

I was black and grew up in a predominantly white [00:05:00] neighborhood, and I was really just discovering the fact that I was queer and not quite comfortable in my own skin, I wasn't somebody who didn't have friends. like, I was popular and had a lot of friends, but I still always felt really uncomfortable.

So to take a deep breath. And really get comfortable in myself. I still wasn't ready to embrace it, but that was a moment, right? That was a real moment for me. But I was scared, so I backed off. But it was something, And I think that's always happened on my journey. There are these moments where it's like you see yourself and you make a decision.

Am I gonna jump into it or am I gonna back off? And I think that's always still happening. it's never over, 

Robyn: And don't you feel like that's almost this whisper 

Oneika: Yes. 

Robyn: there are times you can remember those whispers, right? And I almost feel like in the case of yoga, 'cause had this happen to me as well, I think it connects us back to some other part of.

 A lifetime There's something to it because I've had a similar experience. 

Oneika: Yes. And whether it's a practice or it [00:06:00] even opens you up to be able to hear certain things. Yes, because I do remember I'm sure now that it was the night that my dad died.

 I heard a whisper, I felt pulled to watch the TV show taxi. 'cause that was something I used to watch with my parents when we were eating and I felt pulled to watch the television show. And I remember just crying. And I didn't know why I was crying, but I was just like weeping and that flute song in the beginning and I was just like, I don't know why I'm so upset.

And then I found out the next day my dad died and now I know that was him letting me know that he was gone. But again, you hear those whispers, but I think if I didn't have a practice. I wouldn't be able to hear 

Robyn: thousand of times. 

Oneika: so our practice helps us, when real life shows up, so we're ready and we're open to those moments.

And that's why I'm so grateful 'cause I didn't grow up in a religious household, so I didn't know how to listen. I'm so grateful now [00:07:00] that I'm able to Perk up when those moments pop up and I don't push them away or ignore them, because if that had happened years ago, I would've pushed that feeling away and I wouldn't have said oh, I need to pay attention right now.

Karen: We talk a lot about how there are practices or certain gateways to the spirit, and it feels like for you, the yoga practice, it wasn't like you were going to the gym or working out. This was something that was really. Connecting you to your inner spirit and allowing that part of yourself to be heard.

Probably for the first time, 

Oneika: not even for the first time, but allowing myself to embrace something that I think I had ignored. 'cause I had experiences as a kid, but I think because my mom was an atheist, so those weren't things that I was allowed to talk about.

But it was almost like permission to say no, this is real. This is. Something that you're allowed to embrace. So maybe it was a reintroduction to a part of me and it was almost like a coming out, and I've written about this, I almost had to come out spiritually [00:08:00] to my family and that was even scarier than coming out as being queer coming out and saying Hey.

I'm a spiritual person because that was more terrifying to say I believe in God than saying

 Hey, I'm dating women now was no big deal. But saying Hey, I believe in God. I was like, oh gosh, what's gonna happen? 

Robyn: That's probably not the norm for most. 

Oneika: Especially coming from a black family. 

Karen: you probably recognized that invitation, change or do nothing. 

Oneika: Yeah. 

Karen: And that is a path that's gonna take you down a very long road.

that is the daunting thing for most. How did that lead into your meditation journey? 

Oneika: I loved yoga, and yoga taught me that I was strong. 'cause I was an athlete in high school. I ran track, I played tennis. I grew up playing tennis. My parents were very physically active.

They were running in the seventies and playing tennis. And my dad taught me how to swim when I was like four. So being athletic was something I always did. So practicing yoga and [00:09:00] being really physically fit, it tapped something into me and I got a physical high from it. So I chased that, so I felt really good and then I got too high.

I chased that high of yoga, not really understanding the spiritual part of it at first. And I would feel really great and then I wouldn't, and then I thought oh, I need to go back to another yoga class, rather not understanding that. What I needed to do was understand that my life wasn't any different, but I needed to understand that I was the one who needed to respond differently to my life, so I hurt my shoulder, and then when I couldn't practice yoga physically and do Asana, I started to meditate more, and I was like, oh, I was doing it all backwards.

That's really about being still and sitting with myself and. Because I wasn't comfortable in my own skin. I used to create a lot of chaos in my life because when my life was chaotic, I knew how to fix it. So I would create drama because then I could fix it. And that's the way that I used to deal with myself.

[00:10:00] Like I knew how to do things when everything was a mess. And then when I recognized meditation could help me deal with myself, and I realized oh, it's okay if I have shame. It's okay if I have disappointment, but being still would allow me to see that and embrace myself with some tenderness.

That's what the practice was really about. That's how I found it. But I had to get hurt before I understood that, and that's when I dove really deep into meditation, and then I started to dive into the Dharma and to Buddhism. 

Robyn: I have to tell you, I think that's gonna resonate with so many people. First of all, on the yoga journey, I think a lot of people are introduced to yoga and are doing it for that high that you talked about.

And I think you said you were even taking maybe two classes a day. 

Oneika: yeah. And sometimes even more than that. Yeah, because that hot yoga class is really addictive. 'cause it feels really good. You feel so strong and powerful and sexy and you're like, I can do anything. And then it wears off and you're like, oh, let me go do it again.

And [00:11:00] then. No one really tells you. That's not the point. 

Robyn: I've had a similar experience, so I can understand that. And then when you were talking about the drama, I don't know that everybody is as self-aware, and that you can actually change it.

 that's profound And I think people are listening who. Know what you're talking about. This is for you. Yeah. 

Karen: I totally recognize with the creating the chaos around me because as women, even we're taught to be the fixers

and everyone. it is almost like a natural thing. And it's just our structures is the world we live in. But I never looked at it the way you just said it, which is how. This practice of meditation does give you that opportunity to almost step out of yourself and really see that.

 I would have to say too, I think some people are addicted to that chaos, just like they might be to the physical working out. 

Oneika: Oh, I was addicted to the drama with myself, with relationships. Like I would create some drama in my relationship so I could fix that and be like, I fixed the problem, so won't you love me again?

Look, I made this [00:12:00] problem, but then I fixed it. So wait. See I'm worthy now. And I used to even do it financially too even subconsciously paying bills late, like all of these things I used to do, create terrible situations for myself so I could fix it to create worth or purpose.

And It was this endless cycle because in that stillness, I would call it boredom, I would be bored, so I would need to do something to fill that space, not realizing there's magic. When things are mundane, it's peaceful. I should be grateful for that.

Peace. Ugh. But as women, just like you were saying, Karen, we're so used to having to fill that up with something. We're told that we should be doing something that we're not supposed to be resting. We're supposed to be doing something for other people. So when we do have moments, we fill it with something and if there's nothing to fill it with, we create a crisis to fill it with.

Robyn: big time. 

Karen: I hear that loud, clear, 

Robyn: And [00:13:00] it's a cycle that we have to break because I think we're raised by that. It's all the things, 

Karen: I was literally experiencing that yesterday.

It's just so crazy how you phrase that. 'cause I've been trying to meditate more and yesterday I was like, I'm gonna give myself five minutes away from my computer, I hardly ever take a break and I'm gonna go outside. And I'm just gonna sit there. it was 80 degrees here.

 one minute in. I'm pulling my phone, I'm doing the world. Wow. Okay. And I'm like I need to go to therapy. I am addicted. to work. I need help. 

I dunno what I would do if I had 50,000 things on my plate. I don't know what I would do. 

 So what you're saying to me, is dead on. I think so many people feel that way. They don't know how to live or fill their time when it's not really structured

Oneika: you can feel though the things that you're doing with some mindfulness.

Because some people are afraid of the silence, I would find this with especially women at Rikers Rikers was full of a lot of violence and a lot of terror, but there's also a [00:14:00] lot of quiet and boredom. And. A lot of women would meet themselves for the first time in silence 'cause they weren't taking care of their kids or they weren't busy with work and so they would meet themselves for the first time.

And sitting in that silence would be really terrifying. 'cause what am I supposed to do with myself now? And I will create chaos. I will create problems. I will argue with people. I will do all of these things. I will talk about people, I will gossip about people. And so being able to figure out how can I take a breath? How can I just say I'm okay. Or how can I look at myself and say how can I create some time for myself and say maybe I'm just gonna sit here. And maybe say kind things to myself, or if I do have to be busy, can I make that time that I'm busy and make it mindful and can I walk with some purpose?

Or can I take a shower with some purpose? Or can I eat with some purpose instead if I have to be busy? Or can I laugh with some purpose instead? If I'm gonna be doing things anyway, can I do [00:15:00] that with some intention? 

Robyn: You just mentioned Rikers.

How did you end up. Working there. 

Oneika: I volunteered for a long time and that was just through a conversation with my cousin I come from a family of people who were activists. My grandfather was a Black Panther and he was a union organizer. My grandmother was also a council person and so it was in our DNA to give back and to serve.

So I volunteered for a while and after volunteering there I was offered the opportunity to interview for this position of mindfulness. Coach and I, along with is incredible. Acupuncturist and a wellness coach. We were given the opportunity to launch a wellness program inside the women's facility, and so I was able to have my own office in a program where I worked with folks to help them treat either insomnia, anxiety, or somatic issues.

And I was employed by New York Health and Hospitals, but I worked at Rikers full time and saw up to 10 people a [00:16:00] day. And it was really pretty incredible when we launched this program and really disruptive at first. When you start anything new inside a big system like Rikers. people complained about it 'cause it was new and everybody had to get on board, the staff had to get on board, officers had to get on board.

And that's a good thing, right? Because, everybody has to acknowledge this new thing that's happening. So it was really radical. 

Robyn: And for those who don't know what Rikers. Can you 

Oneika: So Rikers Island is a jail system in New York City, and it's literally an island.

So you have to take this bridge to get to Rikers. So it's already very isolating and it's a series of 11 buildings. And right now there's probably. 7,500 people who are on the island. when I worked there full time, I worked at the women's facility, which is called the Rose M Singer Center.

 and the rest of the jails are for men right now. And there's also like a, health facility there too. And it's a really sad, terrible, violent place. there's a lot of pain there. Most [00:17:00] people probably know it from watching Law and Order. That's probably how it got very popular.

So when you hear about Rikers. It's probably from Law and Order. Kif Browder was a young man who was accused of stealing a backpack and he committed suicide on the island too, and that's when it also got very popular. There was a young woman named Lele Polanco, who was a young trans woman.

Who also died in solitary confinement there about three or four years ago. I was working the day that she died too. it's been known because a lot of people have died in custody 

Robyn: And so that's why, like for you coming in, being part of creating a wellness, 

Oneika: a wellness program was a really big deal.

And the doctors that I worked with were so incredible. It was such a gift to work with doctors who cared and who knew that this program would be really powerful because we were allowed. To do what we needed to do. I'm a Reiki practitioner, I'm a licensed massage therapist.

And you know what they said Bring all of your [00:18:00] modalities. They weren't like, you had to do it this way. They were like, we know what you can do and we want you to do the work the way that you wanna do it. And being told that I could do that was such an incredible gift. 

Karen: How did you ever make that happen?

Because it would seem to me that would be the last place that people would be receptive, 

Oneika: the doctors got a grant for this program from the wife of the mayor at the time because there was the big push for mental health. So it was a pilot program.

And so there was a lot riding on it to see if it would be successful. So there was a lot of pressure. So at first it was only for folks who had a mental health diagnosis. And if it was popular then we were gonna be allowed to keep it. But very quickly it took off and, jail is known for being very gossipy. And so women would come and then they started telling everybody like, you've gotta go down to meditation. You've gotta go get acupuncture, you have to go talk to the wellness coach. So very soon it got really [00:19:00] So they opened it up to everybody at the facility.

And then very quickly I had a waiting list. I couldn't even see all of the people that I wanted to see because it was just too po. None of us could all of us had waiting lists. 

Robyn: And what did it teach you? did you also do reiki on. 

Oneika: For people who wanted it.

Yeah. 'Cause it wasn't mandatory, it was a voluntary program. So people would sign up and I would do like an introductory session. So we would chat, I'd do an assessment and we would chat and see what's going on, tell me about how you're feeling and not just inside.

I would really ask tell me about your life before. Not just about why you're here, but how were you sleeping before? Because that's really the thing. and most people weren't sleeping well. Most people had stress and anxiety before. So we would talk about that. And then we would talk about what's going on here.

And then we would. Come up with a program for them. So it would be really individualized for each person. And some people would wanna just come down and do yoga. So some people were just getting privates with me. there was actually a couple of [00:20:00] people who recognized me, 'cause I used to practice at Giva MTI in New York City.

And there were some people, like I used to see you at jva, mti some people knew I know how expensive a private is, so can we just do private yoga? I'd be like, yeah, let's go. So it was really fascinating. every single day was really different.

I think there's assumptions about people who were in jail, aren't smart or have never done yoga before.

But there were some people who had very serious practices, like I was doing handstands with some people,

Karen: And what about the impact how do you feel about that? 

Oneika: I think there was a lot of, impact on a macro level. You'll get to the end of the book.

I don't think it was great. I think I might have caused more harm because I feel like when people feel like, oh, there's this woman and she did. Yoga and meditation. So how bad could Rikers be? Because people started hearing I was doing this and I did an interview like on New York one because they wanted to know Hey, there's yoga happening at Rikers, and I didn't want the place to look better than it [00:21:00] was.

And I started to have. Too much conflict inside my body. I was already having a problem going in because, 

I got paid a decent salary, I had a pension, I had benefits, and I was already having a problem with that. 'cause I had a dream job as a yoga teacher getting paid a full-time salary to go do this work, knowing that I was abolitionist.

And then I felt like I don't know if I can keep holding this in my body and then teaching in solitary confinement. I had this moment where I was like, what am I doing? Am I really teaching meditation inside people who can only come out for an hour a day? Wait a minute, am I only helping them to stay inside solitary confinement and make it more bearable?

 Is that harmful or is that helping? And then I started to think about, I don't know if I'm helping and if I don't know if I'm helping. Should I be doing this? And I had to have a little talk with myself, and at the end of the day, if I couldn't justify it, I didn't think I could do it anymore. [00:22:00] It didn't mean that somebody shouldn't be doing it, I just didn't think I could be doing it.

And there's an incredible woman named Brie Skylar who's doing the work now. We used to work together, volunteering and so she's doing the work now because it still has to happen, right? As long as the place exists, somebody needs to be doing it. And, I think it was a big ego to think that I was the only person who could be doing it.

And I had to leave. 

Robyn: You did it for five years, 

Oneika: Yeah. Which was too long. I should have even been doing it that long. I remember having coffee after I quit with one of the doctors and, he asked me if I thought I was there too long, and I said, I think I was there probably like a year and a half too long.

When I told myself I was gonna quit, I stayed because I didn't wanna leave, . Because the people were great and I didn't wanna leave 'cause you, you meet people, but because it's a jail. There's a difference between jail and prison. prisons for people who serve long sentences and jail, or people who are awaiting trial and people who are serving a sentence of a year or less.

 But there's phases so people are [00:23:00] only there for a period of time, so there was almost a good moment to leave. 'cause all of the people I had relationships with were relieving. So there was a good point to leave too. 

Robyn: And then also. you were explaining it, but you were picking up on energy for yourself each and every day, walking into the facility and then having to leave and make sure you're clearing how did that work in itself?

Oneika: The island itself has some really heavy energy. I think even just from the indigenous folks who are holding the, that land, just from the people who've been there. I think people who have died there that island has its own energy. And then also just from the trauma that's there, from the people who tell you the stories, you carry a lot.

And you can't hold it all. And there's no amount of energy work that I was doing that I could clear every day. And I used to bring ancestors with me somebody who I worked with gave me a practice and he would tell me to say through this field, only love may [00:24:00] enter.

And within this field, only love remains. And I would do that for myself. And I would say that and bring ancestors with me from the moment that I walked outside of my apartment until I brought myself back. And also a good friend of mine told me to bring a spirit animal with me, like a physical animal.

And I imagine like this huge dragon with like wings, who would just sweep it all away. But even that wasn't. Enough. And there is a point when I felt like there was even something who saw me, like an entity seeing me there and I felt like I had to go 

 And that I needed to leave. And I even had people when I knew that I needed to leave friends. Could sense it There were friends on the other coast who were like, you need to go. 

Robyn: That's deep. Let's just talk about the meditation in general and what people misconstrue about [00:25:00] meditation.

 when they should start and that they can't do it and all of that. let's go there. 

Oneika: So let's talk about meditation. First of all. I think meditation can be for everybody and there are days if you don't feel like you can meditate. I actually don't think you have to, and I think that's also something important to be said.

 Meditation is for everybody, and if it feels heavy when you are meditating, I think it's also important that you know that you can stop. But there are a lot of people who say I can't meditate because my mind is too cluttered. Meditation is not about emptying your mind. Meditation is about making peace with the mind that you have.

And I think that is the most important thing that people should understand. It is about making peace with your messy mind and acknowledging it. And once people understand that, I think it makes it a lot more approachable. 

Karen: And how do you define meditation? 

Oneika: I [00:26:00] define meditation as simply sitting with yourself and allowing yourself to be with whatever is happening in the moment.

 That's it, and it's about concentrating on what is happening in the moment. And mindfulness is a kind of meditation. It's different than meditation. Meditation is about concentration and concentration on a particular point, but mindfulness is about being present in the moment without judgment and not trying to fix or change anything that's going on in the moment.

 It's not trying to feel good. It's not about feeling great, it's just about this is what's happening right now. 

Robyn: It's an acknowledgement. 

Oneika: Yeah. 

Robyn: And then let's talk about meta. 

Karen: Yes. Let's do, 

Robyn: I don't think that most people have heard of it. And how was that introduced to you?

Oneika: Yes. So Metta is the poly word for loving kindness. And Polly is ancient language and metta comes from the Buddhist practice and it [00:27:00] means loving kindness. And it's another way to say love, but it's not just any kind of love. It's an unconditional kind of love.

 it's a love that starts with ourselves and it expands outward. And so we first acknowledge ourselves. And then we extend out to somebody we love and then we go to a familiar stranger or like a neutral person. And then from there we go to a difficult person or and Buddhism, we call it the enemy.

And then from there we offer this unconditional friendliness to all sentient beings. But we do it by offering phrases and we say, may you be safe, may you be happy, may you be healthy, and may you live with ease. So it's a principle and it's a way that you wanna live, but we practice it as a meditation.

 And mindfulness, you focus on the breath or you focus on an anchor. When you practice loving kindness as a meditation, you focus on the phrases. So you offer the phrases to [00:28:00] yourself as like a present or a gift, and then you offer those phrases to the loved one as a gift. And then you offer those phrases to the stranger as a gift, and then you even offer the phrases to that difficult person as a gift.

 But I think the beauty of Metta isn't so much when you those phrases. It's when you notice what gets in the way of offering those phrases, So it's not so much that loving kindness like everybody wants somebody to be well, right? That's not the big deal. The big deal is what gets in the way.

Everybody wants, your loved one to be well until you remember, like they owe you money or you know that they pissed you off and they're like, that's the problem, It's all fun and games until there's a problem. And that's why Metta, I think, is so powerful. And I personally think that Metta, especially in the Buddhist world is seen as like a throwaway practice.

 it's, it seems like it's wrapped up in toxic positivity. of course everybody wants everybody to be well, but I [00:29:00] found it to be very powerful. I think particularly, being black and queer, because I used to really hang on to this idea of, being stuck pushing back against racism and how was I going to offer.

Wishes to people who hated me, particularly around people who are racist. I was like, why would I wanna do that? '

Cause that just seems stupid. when I was first introduced to Metta, 'cause I did. did mindfulness first, and I liked mindfulness, but there seemed almost something missing.

And I did this training at this wonderful nonprofit called The Interdependence Project. And I saw this training on loving kindness and I liked my teacher. So I did that next training. And she didn't like Metta and because she didn't like Metta, but I liked her. I was like, I'm gonna do this with her 'cause she's right up my alley.

And then I realized If she can do this, I can do this. And I realized that I was holding onto the hate for myself. So if I was holding onto the hate, I wasn't hurting anybody who was racist. I was only [00:30:00] hurting myself. So I realized that I needed to let go. Not for them, but for me. And that's the whole spoiler, We do this for ourselves, we do this so we can love ourselves more, and that's the freedom. 

Robyn: I don't know a person that doesn't need to hear that. You know what I mean? Like for real, 

Karen: it's almost like that key that unlocks all of that barrier that you have between some, someone else.

And we always talk about how we are all one, and it's really hard to see that in this day and age with everything that's going on. But if you realize that one key. That anything that you hold against that other person is really harming yourself. Really, it's keeping yourself from being that place of peace.

 When you can look at it that way, everything really changes. 

Oneika: I realized that by holding onto my hate of white supremacy and of racism, it was so much of my identity, and if I let that go, who was I? 

 wow. [00:31:00] That scared me because I'm the social justice person. Who am I gonna be if I'm not that? 

Oneika: there's again, space, boredom, emptiness, and do I have to fill it with anything? Could I just let it be? 

And that scared me. So I just had to sit with that. And because I had a little bit of a practice before that, I was like what if I just leave it?

What if nothing's there? Okay what's that gonna be like? What if I fill it up with love? What if I get hurt?

 Then I can love myself and it'll be okay. It's what if? What if? What if? And then I found I was asking more questions instead of trying to fix things.

And then that became really interesting, and that also became another way to be free. And that was beautiful. Instead of being limiting.

Robyn: And if we all look at, we all came into this lifetime in whatever meat suit we're in, and with a story, [00:32:00] and then if you can come to that place of understanding and of really loving yourself on that soul level.

 That changes everything. 

Oneika: Changes everything. And then I was like, oh, it allowed me to understand that yes, I can still be connected with social justice. I don't have to attach to the anger to it, and can't I be more powerful that way? 

Karen: Wow, 

Oneika: can I be more powerful moving from love rather than from hate?

And that actually impacted me, and that became so much more powerful at Rikers because then I could see myself differently and then I could interact differently with officers because I understood that. In theory, but then that became in practice when I was in a place like Rikers because I used to have this idea, everybody at Rikers who was incarcerated was there on some, miscarriage of [00:33:00] justice.

And all of the officers and all of the staff were there to punish people. And I was the only one there who was there for the right reasons. It was so reductive but really everything is so much messier. Officers were people, there were some people who were incarcerated who were really jerks and like everything is so much messier and I didn't have to like anybody, but if I could just love everybody instead, wouldn't that just be so much simpler?

And it really was a lot simpler when I could just do it that way. And it didn't really matter if I liked anybody at all. It didn't even matter if I liked myself, if I could just love myself. It's just so much simpler. I just had to worry about unconditionally loving everybody.

Robyn: I think most people don't understand the difference between liking and loving. 

Oneika: Yes. Because liking is rooted in judgment because when we like things, we label things good and bad because if I'm good, somebody else is bad, or if I'm bad, that means somebody else is good.

And that's rooted in judgment. But if we can unconditionally love. [00:34:00] It doesn't matter if you're good or bad, and being unconditionally loving doesn't mean that you're not trying to stop harm from being caused, Sometimes I think we think that unconditionally loving something means acceptance of things, and that doesn't mean that either.

But liking things is so rooted in judgment. You are good. I'm bad. And so we label things and it's so freeing to not have to like things, and social media has really conditioned us around judgment and liking and cancel. Culture has conditioned us around liking and judgment and it's so harmful.

 it's so harmful. 

Karen: This is like one aha after another for me. I'm still caught behind about asking questions versus fix. I'm still caught back there. So this really big thinking though. That all comes back to, your own feeling and being okay within your own self and, I think most people can't even get there. 

Oneika: [00:35:00] but here's the beautiful thing. You don't even have to worry about fixing other people because if you just do this for yourself, you become this beautiful example. You only have to do yourself. You can't fix anybody else anyway. Yeah. So you don't even have to worry about anybody else.

you are the only thing that you can control. You are the only thing that you have to worry about. And I think when we're so worried about liking other people, we only do that because we're only worried that other people aren't gonna like us. So if we can worry about loving ourselves and worry about this, I don't like this part about myself and that's okay. So if I can love that part about myself, I can show up in the world fully anyway. 

Karen: So much wisdom you have gained by all of these experiences. So when you left Rikers, what did you go next? What did you do? 

Oneika: I took a lot of time off. To really process because I didn't realize that I was still holding on to so much vicarious trauma.

[00:36:00] I even remember there was a building I was living in Brooklyn at the time, and there was a building that had the same alarm system that Rikers had. And I remember walking one day and this the alarm went off and my body. Tense because I was still so hypervigilant and there was just so much that I had to unpack and I spent a lot of time.

Just unpacking that and then writing the book and then figuring out what am I gonna do next? So after writing the book I discovered oh think I wanna start telling stories. So I started telling stories. I wrote this book and then I wrote a TV pilot that I started to tell a story.

Realized that I'm pretty good at that. And so I started shopping that around and and teaching again. 'cause I had stopped teaching for a while too. So I started teaching and I'm doing lots of retreats again and getting myself back out there and who knows where things are gonna go.

Robyn: Tell us how the book came to be and you really balance it between this. [00:37:00] Memoir and also a guidebook. 

Oneika: Yeah, , I used to write little bits about what it was like volunteering inside, because I wanted people to know. About what was happening inside Rikers and I wanted people aware of the conditions inside Rikers.

So when I would volunteer, I used to tell about the class and change the names of people that I was teaching and people used to say you need to write a book about this. And not just me, the other teachers would post too, where like we would all post about our classes and then every week somebody would say, you have to write a book.

 And then, one of my best friends would say Anika, you spent 20 years working in corporate retail. Now you're teaching at Rikers, you've been telling all of these stories. it is really time for you to write a book about all of this. Your entire journey your life is so completely different than it was 20 years ago.

 And so I put it all together and and then decided that, yeah, maybe there is something here. And found myself writing this [00:38:00] book, guidebook, memoir, and teaching. 

Robyn: We cannot recommend it more And even when you see the cover, you're going to be like, oh, yep, this is my book.

 As Karen said, you had I said hello and for those listening, how can they start today? They need to get your book, but how can they start? Applying some of what we're talking about just to today, what's one thing they can do? 

Oneika: Yes. You can take one thing you're already doing and turn it into a mindful moment. So let's say you're washing the dishes. You can take the time that you're washing the dishes and turn that into a mindful moment. Put the dish soap in your hands and just pause for a second. Notice how the soap feels on your hands.

 Just take a moment. That can be the one thing that you do. Notice the texture of the soap touching your skin. Notice how the warm water feels on your hands. Notice what it feels like if you're using the dishwasher, opening the dishwasher up. How does the of the dishwasher handle [00:39:00] feel as you pull it open?

Do you notice the sound? The creaking sound as the dishwasher opens the clinking of the dishes inside the dishwasher. That's your mindful moment, is your mindful moment when you wake up in the morning and put your feet down onto the ground, or simply when you open your eyes and take a breath. We don't have to.

 Find a moment to be mindful. We can make things that we're already doing and our lives mindful, and that's how I think we start. 

Our lives are already busy, but we can turn what we're doing into mindfulness.

Robyn: I also wanna ask one other question, which is on those days that you're not feeling super.

Happy, let's say. You get news that upsets you. 

 What would be your go-to thing to do in those moments? 

Oneika: I shake, I allow myself to jump around and shake it out and move the energy out. So that is actually one thing that I do. I don't actually and I [00:40:00] learned that the hard way. Ps cause I teach what I need to learn.

I try to meditate the day after I found out my dad died. Not a good idea for me. and some people can sit with themselves. I tried to sit and do a meditation, but it was too overwhelming. It was really close to my dad. He was my hero and my mentor. Too many emotions came up. Not a great idea.

 So I had to dance and shake, so that actually was really powerful to me to dance it out and shake it out. So movement might be a thing and then I could be still. So it's having lots of tools is actually a really, having a consistent practice over time is really helpful.

So you can have things to choose from so you can know what your thing is. I like to move when there's something that's really heavy. I posted actually on Instagram just the other day because things were feeling really heavy. So I went on a walk. Is one of my favorite go-to things for a day and feeling the sun on my face.

Karen: I [00:41:00] meant to ask you this earlier. Is there a certain type of meditation practice that you use? Is it the same practice every day? Do you use music? Do you use a mantra? 

Oneika: I sit and I actually sit in my dad's meditation chair every day. He has a really big meditation chair. when he got cancer, he started to meditate in this really big chair.

No, I sit in every day. I don't use music. Sometimes I do all kinds of meditation, but I sit in stillness and I sit. In his chair. But I talked to a tree upstairs on my deck after that and I talked to the corners. The four directions is my practice. So I talked to the east, then the south, then the west, and then the north.

Karen: And do you say a mantra or do you listen to what they are saying to you? 

Oneika: I greet the ancestors and then I talk to them in every direction. But when I go to the south in particular, I actually give the the loving kindness directions when I go to the south. 

Robyn: [00:42:00] That's a great way to create the day. And you give so many different. Ways for people to practice 

Oneika: Yeah. 

Robyn: for themselves 

Oneika: sometimes you'll find your thing there's so many different ways. Because I like to sit and then I talk to my tree.

And then, or I'll walk and there's all different things that you can do and you may find. One thing works for you one day and another thing works for you another day. Music can be a really powerful meditation too. I think music that's instrumental can is probably the best way to go if you're first starting and not stuff with lyrics.

'cause lyrics can take us off and we start to wander and get caught up in a story versus music that doesn't have lyrics. 

Karen: is there a set amount of time that you feel is important 

Oneika: if you're just getting started? No I think just start small.

I think starting small so you can be consistent and you don't have to do it every day when you first get started, it's about being consistent when you first get started, I think is the important thing. If it's once a week when you first get started, then it's [00:43:00] once a week. Don't try to do things really big, I think you wanna measure success in inches rather than feet when you first started.

Robyn: It actually goes back to that idea of when you start getting addicted to yoga in the way that, it's all of a sudden if you put these expectations on yourself, but then when it becomes like a real tool. you know what I'm saying?

Oneika: Right. And then you get consistent, but it's Do it regularly, like once a week. And then when you're like, yeah, you know what, this feels good. Then you add on a little bit more. It's like when people start to talk to you about, getting more consistent with your nutrition.

It's not about taking things away, it's about adding things. So they tell you to add more greens into your diet rather than telling you to take away the foods that you like. So you start small and then you slowly build from there. 

Karen: I feel like meditation it can be so misinterpreted because I think people feel it is like getting up and brushing their teeth like it's something I should do because it's good for me.

 [00:44:00] Versus opening yourself up to the opportunity that this inner part of yourself really wants to speak and doesn't have the opportunity most times in life. And I find for me, the thing that. Gets me back there all the time. Is not that I'm building this muscle or I'm building my spiritual practice, I just really wanna listen for a minute to what the inner me wants to tell me, or what my spirit guides want to tell me, or just listen for a little bit of that inspiration that's outside of my routine and that's what draws me back.

Oneika: I think people. Encounter meditative moments more than they think. And I think it's if they can recognize when they're doing it, they will incorporate it more into their lives. There have been moments when you might have been concentrating and you are actually in a state of meditation.

You just haven't recognized it as such. So when you hear a conversation like this. And then you know what meditation can feel [00:45:00] like you're more likely to recognize it when it happens and you're like, oh, that might have been a moment of meditation. So the next time that you're on a walk and then you realize oh, I'm completely focused right now.

Oh. Is this a moment of meditation. So then you'll know when it happens again and you recognize it. And that's what I think is so powerful for people to understand. You are probably doing this, sometimes you just don't know it. And then when you know it, you can recognize it and do it more often. 

Robyn: And what we had talked about in this conversation, it helps you to hear the whispers. 

Oneika: Yes. I love the whispers. 

Robyn: And I think from this conversation, people will be really interested in understanding that metta Yes. And loving kindness and how that really is an instrument and tool that you can use for yourself and it helps others too.

 I love that. that's the energy that we can choose to put out in the world for ourselves and for each other. 

Oneika: Yes. 

Robyn: Oh my goodness, oneika, thank [00:46:00] you so much. It really has been one aha after another. 

Karen: It 

Oneika: has been such a joy. 

Karen: I wanna just say too, for everybody listening the way you write this book, the voice of your book is very powerful. Robin and I read a lot of books and what I love about yours, it's like we're sitting with you and the words that you use are just very like.

Robyn: mind the pun with me. 

Karen: Oh, I swear. I didn't realize I just said that. but that's what makes it, okay. So that's what makes the title so good. But it, you're delivering, you really deliver on that and it's such a lovely book to read.

You take us. On the journey with you, you offer what you've learned back in return. And it's just so honest and real and authentic and I think anyone who picks this book up will find it fascinating. The story of the journey that you go on should be a show in itself, And the impact that you've had, and just keep writing, keep sharing, and can't wait to see where [00:47:00] all of this takes you.

Oneika: Thank you so much you guys. This was just such a pleasure to talk to you both. 

Robyn: I want you to know that we see you, and thank you for helping us see ourselves.

Karen: Yes. Oh, that's a great way to put it. 

Robyn: That's the truth. And we are just grateful to be connected and on the journey with you.

Oneika: Thank you. 

Robyn: Everybody needs to go get. Sit with me a no BS journey to mindfulness and meditation, and you can go to Oneika may.com. That's s.com. You can check out all the book her offerings, know where to her, all the things. thank you. 

Oneika: Thank you.