Chewing the Gristle with Greg Koch
Welcome to Season 5! Listen in on Greg Koch's conversations with his guitar-hero friends. Every episode Greg unleashes his fiendish humor and unique perspective as "one of the most famous unknown guitar players in the world", asking his often-famous musical friends the questions that we all want to know the answers to! Each episode is brought to you by Fishman and Wildwood Guitars
Chewing the Gristle with Greg Koch
Jeff McErlain - Brooklyn Blues Rock, European Tours, and Guitar Lessons
Ever wondered how blues rock guitar maestro Jeff McErlain from Brooklyn, New York, balances the dual life of performing and teaching? Join us on a soulful journey as we chat with Jeff about his thriving career, his popular teaching platform jmguitarlessons.com, and his engaging YouTube content. You'll get a glimpse into the camaraderie and shared stories that highlight our musical lives' unique challenges and joys, from the practicalities of touring to the ever-present dilemma of choosing the perfect wardrobe for video appearances.
Our conversation takes a deep dive into live music performance, where we debate the merits of traditional amplifiers versus digital equipment like the Fractal. Spontaneity and improvisation take center stage as we share personal anecdotes about balancing performance dynamics with venue restrictions. We also discuss the evolving dynamics of live gigs, the significance of sound management, and the challenges musicians face with volume control. From the benefits of in-ear monitors for hearing protection to the impact of audience feedback on our live performances, every detail is covered to give you an inside look at the life of a musician.
As the episode wraps up, we explore the transition from the traditional music business to the digital age, emphasizing the importance of adapting to industry changes and maintaining a successful online presence. Jeff shares his journey of balancing a career in teaching and performing in the bustling landscape of New York City, touching on the misconceptions about the musician's lifestyle and the financial realities of touring. Reflect on the evolution of live music, the joy of rediscovering our passion for performing, and the deep bond we share with our instruments. This heartfelt discussion underscores the importance of innovation, dedication, and the irreplaceable energy of live performances.
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At long last. Ladies and gentlemen, season five of Chewing the Gristle is indeed upon us, a convivial conversation fest between myself, gregory S Caulk, esquire and a variety of musical potentates from hither and yon, brought to you by our friends at Wildwood Guitars and our friends at Fishman Transducers, of course, both of which I've had long-standing and continuing relationships with, and I'm very grateful for their continued support in this endeavor to bring you Chewing the Dog on Gristle. We've got a bunch of fun guests, some you have heard of, some maybe not so much. It'll be a little bit of discovery and a little bit of chaos all rolled into one. Thanks for tuning in folks. Now, without any further ado, let's chew some gristle.
Greg Koch:This week on Chewing the Gristle, we have hailing from beautiful Brooklyn, new York, jeff McElhain, blues rock guitar player extraordinaire. He's out there playing that blues rock guitar like a fiend in heat. You've seen him on stage with Robin Ford. You've seen his many instructional things on the Internet, on his own website, on YouTube, on True Fire. He's a madman. Ladies and gentlemen, . This week on Chewing the Gristle. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we convene once again around the Gristle Fire. I don't even know what that is, but listen, we're Chewing the Gristle with . He's out there in beautiful Brooklyn, new York, guitar player, extraordinaire educator, extraordinaire cool cat, mutual friends of a lot of mutual friends, of a lot of mutual friends. I'm putting an extra syllable in there for some reason, but it feels good. Jeff, how the hell are you? What's happening?
Jeff McErlain:Doing damn fine, man. Good to see you.
Greg Koch:Nice to see you too. Now, what's going out there on this beautiful? What's going on out there? It's beautiful here in Wisconsin. What's it like there?
Jeff McErlain:It is beautiful in Brooklyn and it is 76 degrees and sunny, so I'm all what am I doing? Inside talking to you.
Greg Koch:Well, exactly Because we're creatures of the permanent you know this is only an audio thing because we don't. One of these days I'll actually get the do the thing where we do it on youtube as well. But you've got quite a buffet of delicious guitars behind you, and, uh, as do you. That's true, I do, actually, don't I?
Jeff McErlain:yeah I was just kind of commenting. We're both wearing black t-shirts and black hats and Well, you know what I have found?
Greg Koch:that the black t-shirt is an excellent way to disguise the bullum, if you will, the abdominal goiter which seems to fluctuate in size depending on how much road food I'm vibing in.
Jeff McErlain:I find that, like when you do a lot of YouTube videos, people don't ever comment because black t-shirts kind of like the uniform, yeah exactly. If you're not, you're thinking about different shirts. I'm like wait, I wore that one last video, so people are going to be like why is he always wearing that blue shirt? You know Exactly, it's a funny thing, yeah.
Greg Koch:Absolutely. Now you do a ton of online stuff. Tell the folks what your main things that you do online and where they can digest it.
Jeff McErlain:Oh, I appreciate that. Yeah, the main thing is jmguitarlessonscom and that's my teaching site we're at this moment. I'm going to get into a subscription soon or later. I have a kind of an inner circle, because you can't touch my inner circle. I know you know that reference right, nobody else does. You know so where I do the teaching, you know I got a lot of courses there and then I have my YouTube page, you know, and that's the, that's the main thing right now. But I got a tour coming up next month, you know, in September in Europe, so playing we're going to be over there too.
Greg Koch:Maybe we'll cross paths on the great European excursion. Oh, you froze for a minute.
Jeff McErlain:So where was I?
Greg Koch:You were talking about. We were talking about Europe, and that you're going over there and that we're going to be there as well, and hopefully our paths will cross. Where are you all going to be?
Jeff McErlain:I'm going to be primarily in the Czech Republic, which is interesting, so I didn't really realize there was that we're spending almost three weeks in the Czech Republic.
Greg Koch:Oh nice, Well, that'll be fun.
Jeff McErlain:We did a few years ago. It's been great. It's a lot of audiences are great and you know it's fun to get over there.
Greg Koch:And you're kind of going all over the place there, right, correct, we're going to, we fly into Frankfurt and then, uh, we're just North of Hamburg initially, and then we go over to Berlin and then we're just. You know, I've had the same agent, the mighty Klaus Schmidt, who I affectionately call the great German beast, and, uh, for reasons that are well, perfect anyway, but he, uh, you know, he's really good at finding something for like every day of the week. So when we go over there we don't have many days off, which is a good thing, so we're not emerging money in some hotel someplace. But by the same token, sometimes we are crisscrossing old Deutschland, like, like it's going out of style. But we have five days in France this time, which is good, because I'm sure you're aware, when you go over there it's like you'll have agents in certain regions but not agents in other places, and it's hard to break into various different places, depending on you know your connect.
Greg Koch:So this time we've, we're finally going into France. We've only done, I mean, during the fender days I do stuff in France all over the place. Uh, but with the band we've only really done, like, northern France, we go into Nancy and we do something there at a music school up there and we do a show and a workshop type of thing, uh, but this is actually a full five days of you know workshops in the afternoon, gigs in the night, wow, and so that should be good. And then after we end up in that, or in Austria a little bit, and then we end up at the Mannheim Guitar Summit oh cool. So we're doing that at the very end of the month and then we head to the UK for about 10 days and do stuff there.
Greg Koch:So I'm just working out all the details. You know how it is. It's like what guitar should I bring? Maybe I can get guitars sent over there and do some kind of a thing at the end where we give them away through a magazine or something. Or who am I going to send merch to? Because if you bring all your merch over, your stuff weighs a ton and you know, just that usual stuff.
Jeff McErlain:You know it's funny, I in the 19th in the thousands, you know Right. And what happened? You know I had a kid, as you do, you know, and I just kind of I remember coming home off the road once and my wife despised me and you know, my son was, you know, older suddenly, and you know, I was like, you know, I didn't come home with like enough money to go. Yeah, I'm going to keep on doing this, you know Right, doing this, you know. And so what's been great now is my son's 18. He starts college in like two in a week.
Greg Koch:So you know, as he's gotten older, I know what that's like.
Jeff McErlain:Oh, yeah, well, I'll find out. So he's. So I've been sticking the toe back in doing some touring again, you know, because I had I had missed that angle of and I did some touring with Rob and that kind of got me back into it and, uh, you know the kick that I needed to get into it. But I'm looking forward to this. But yeah, like we had a few dates in austria and they got canceled because the, the booking agent, obviously had some personal stuff go on, yeah, that we just found out then. So then all the dates in austria just got canceled because this guy's whole life disintegrated, right, you know. And then so you, you're like, oh, okay, so we, we picked them up, we got a good booking agent in the Czech Republic, so we just grabbed some more in the Czech Republic. So we're playing every night, which is, as you know, is uh, it's, it's got, it's great things as a player, it's awesome, right.
Greg Koch:I find that as long as you keep moving, it's okay. It's when you stop for two days, then you're like, and then it just hits that second day, yeah, your body just says remember that thing where you went, like nonstop. Well, here's a reminder that there are limitations to the request you make of your body.
Jeff McErlain:But I'm doing a whole juggling of gear like you do Like what am I going to use over there? What guitar, how do I get that there? How much merch, all that stuff.
Greg Koch:Yeah, it's just part of the thing. And then, of course, you get there and then it's without a doubt, people are like, oh, it's so loud and you're going who did you book in here? Why is this a thing? Parallel existence, man, it's crazy, yeah, and you know like sorry, no, it's all right, Go ahead. I want to hear what your perspective is.
Jeff McErlain:I even contemplated bringing like a fractal and I love the fractal stuff. I think it's great. I use it all the time for courses. It just makes life easier. I live in Brooklyn. I can't crank stuff. I I mean I could, but my neighbors would not like me, right? So I try to be a civilized human being. You know what I mean and also who wants to turn up. We can talk about those things you're talking about behind me. If you see my YouTube channel, you see all this stuff, usually like yourself. So I don't have that option. So I thought about it and I thought about it and I'm like oh, fuck that. Bring in an amp again. You know, like, because that's what it's all about. The amp is part of the instrument for guys like us.
Jeff McErlain:Like you just you know, and the Fractal, for, okay, you know, we're playing improvisatory music, right, and so that is such a huge factor, like, okay, if you're playing in a cover band and it's, you know, it's the same thing every night. Yeah, fractal killer, I know, I know there are great players who use it, but I didn't grow up that way and so you want to be able to go over the amp and go, you know, and get that thing and and I don't know about you, but for me the effects are part of the performance. Like tonight, I might want to just bend over and fuck with the feedback on the exactly, yeah, something like on a pre-programmed thing like the fractal, like I would have to plan ahead and that therefore ruins the spontaneity of the whole thing.
Greg Koch:Right, totally. Yep, absolutely.
Jeff McErlain:And it's all about the spontaneity. That's why we do it.
Greg Koch:It's that's a fact, I just find it so odd that these places in you know, they book you into the place and you're doing a sound check and they're like, oh my God, it's too loud. And you're like, okay, well, let's do a quick recap. There's. There's no one in here right now. Okay, when people get in here, it's going to be different. And then the other thing I find is too, is that they, you know, I'm sure you're the same way. It's like, you know, if we're in a small room, don't mic anything except for the vocals, and we'll be fine. But what inevitably they'll do? They'll mic everything up. And then, once we start playing, they start adding things in and they're like, oh, by the end I had it all off. Well, by then, you know, it's just, it's the sound man's part of the problem.
Jeff McErlain:So I don't want to sound like we're complaining, but I complain about it. We sound like two, like you know, you know. But I remember a gig with Robin, you know and you've played Robin, robin's loud, yeah.
Greg Koch:Robin's not afraid.
Jeff McErlain:Yeah, and the sound guy's like it's a little loud, he goes guitar's a louder instrument.
Greg Koch:Yeah.
Jeff McErlain:And he just, of course, you know it's his name's in the marquee, but you know what?
Greg Koch:I'm saying like I just love that comment. Yes, guitar is a loud instrument. Yeah, there it is.
Jeff McErlain:Yeah, absolutely, you know, we don't want it to be loud, for the sake of loud, you want it to be. You know, like compelling and you need to play to certain volumes. The dynamics actually are a thing. And right, you know, trust, like compelling and you need to play to certain volumes, the dynamics actually are a thing. And you know, trust, that you hired the right people to play. You know.
Greg Koch:And you're always going to find somebody who's going to say you guys were really loud, you know, and you're like, well, yeah, well, that's kind of what we do, you know, and I always kind of make the comparison. It's like, look, we are playing in the spirit of all the musicians we were influenced by, who I guarantee you, if they were playing in this club would be deafening, and we're nowhere near what that would have been, because we're not using 100-watt Marshalls.
Jeff McErlain:Okay, that's why that thing sits here as a nice, you know paperweight. You know Exactly.
Greg Koch:Yeah, it looks great on camera but again to your point, we're not complaining. However, you know you love to play and you're there to play music and you want to play music for people. You don't want to not have people like it. You're there so that you can do your thing for the people that want to show up and hear you do your thing, for the people that want to show up and hear you do your thing. And if people are going, oh no, you really need to rethink your entire modus operandi in order to conform to the, to the recipe of this place in Blumenstock in Deutschland.
Jeff McErlain:You know what I mean it's it's.
Greg Koch:It's kind of like hey, you know, you know who you booked, so just kind of chalk this up to. We'll do our best to kind of perform to the room within the confines of what we do, and there it is. But a lot of them can't do that. They just they get real, real uptight, real uptight about it.
Jeff McErlain:There was a very funny thing. The guys I'm touring with the keyboard player's name is Walter Fischbacher and he's originally from Austria and we've been living on in New York for 30 years. We've been playing together forever. They're moving back, he and his wife, and there was a picture of us at the 55 Bar together from 2001. I'm like, wow, okay, you know, you're going back a ways. Yeah, yeah.
Jeff McErlain:So we get to the gigs and he's you know, a keyboard player plays a lot of jazz, just a monster player. And the bass player is a bit more jazzy. And I start playing. They're like whoa, whoa, whoa. And I'm like, no, no, this isn't loud, you don't know loud, this is not loud. And I'm like let's play my tunes. It's not a jazz gig, I'm a rock. Usually, whatever you want to call what it is, we do right. And so the drummer starts playing. I'm like I, I guarantee you like I have to be with him. It's me and him. He sets the volume. You cannot play super soft when you play my music. And it was very funny.
Jeff McErlain:After a few gigs they were like, oh, you're right. And I'm like, yeah, I'm right. And at a club, like one club club, we were like, oh, wow, it's really loud. Then afterwards he was one of those nice nights he goes. I was really worried because you know you're, because you brought in an amp. And afterwards he said you know, I didn't have to touch anything, I just, I didn't do anything. Yeah, I didn't have the pa on, just except when you were speaking. I didn't have anything on except for you know the keyboard, you keyboard, you know, and I'm like, yeah, and he goes, and you guys like it was never too loud, it was, and I'm like we always call it professionals, right, you know, yeah, so it's trust that we know what we're doing. I know we sound bitchy, but it's changed. It has changed.
Greg Koch:It used to be. You can, people understood that volume was a thing, right. I find that you know, in the last five years where we've been touring extensively in the States really for the first time, I've always done, you know, certainly regional stuff for years, but most of my stuff where I was traveling all over the place was mostly clinics, band performances, but you know, kind of under the auspices of you know, if we had an anchor gig someplace, but usually when I was doing the Fender thing we'd do full band things. You know, they weren't really at clubs, right. So all my touring was in Europe. So that was kind of my thing.
Greg Koch:Oh, europe's so much better for touring because they've got an infrastructure and they give you a place to stay and you know the PAs are great and usually and give you a place to stay, and you know the pas are great and usually and they feed you and so on and so forth, and then in the states you're like, yeah, you'll get a couple anchor gigs, and then it's door gigs everywhere. Well, how do you make that work, right? Well, we figured out a way to make it work, which has been great, and what I'm realizing is is that most places don't give a shit how loud you are here, which is crazy. I mean, you show up to some place and you do your soundtrack and you're like, yeah, it's loud, but it is what it is, and you're like, yeah, thank you.
Jeff McErlain:It's a rock club or you know. Yeah sure.
Greg Koch:Exactly so. I've actually kind of got to the point where I prefer touring in the States, and part of it is because of that. You know where you're showing up and then you're playing at places that the only reason why people are coming to that club is to see you and um, and you play early, and that's pretty much the same thing in the in in Europe too, although a lot of times there'll be, you know, municipally sponsored events. You know where they got a little some dough for a music series, and so there may be some randos showing up that don't know what's going on and then the volume might be a problem. But um, over here it's. You know whoever's showing up is there to see you do your thing.
Greg Koch:And you know, occasionally we'll I'll get an email like, oh my god, you guys were so loud. You know my wife and I had to leave after a half hour and then I'll go back and I'll look at and I'm like I I can tell when I'm playing and I'm looking out at a crowd if people are holding their ears or not. You know what I mean. And if people are into it, it's going to be too loud for someone and that's beyond my control. I can't think to myself well, I got to completely rethink the way I do things, you know. I mean, we have contemplated, like you know. We've got this in-ear rig coming, and I don't want in-ears because I want a silent stage, I just want it for monitoring purposes and also for maybe protecting my ears a little bit Right, sure, sure.
Jeff McErlain:Which I was going to say, like I never leave the house without earplugs, right, like I've got tinnitus, oddly not because of my volume. It was like I remember one gig I've talked about the drummer was drunk and I'm like dude, you, you just gotta stop, like you gotta. And he just did not stop, like that was egging him on.
Jeff McErlain:You know like well not my drummer and then it was like from that night on me like you know? So, um, first I just had a hearing test. You, the woman, was like wow, your hearing is surprisingly good. I'm like because I wear earplugs all the time, I don't. I was trying to explain to the guys in the band. I'm like, well, if, why are you wearing earplugs Then why are you that loud? If you need earplugs, I'm like it's, it's, that's not how this works. Like let's have a discussion Like a cy's, not. You know, you're trying to explain Totally. Yeah, but you know where? Earplugs to a gig, which I do, I wear them in the subway in New York. Sometimes it just gets loud.
Jeff McErlain:You, know, certain stations are really loud, and I'm like, okay, you know it's funny. I sound like we're complaining, but it is, it is true. In the States, though, I have noticed the vines be less of a thing yeah, yeah, it is tough when you're playing a gig and somebody's going like this in the front, you're like okay, you shouldn't have been here anyway, because exactly, exactly, so just one funny thing on this there was one gig we had a band opening up for us, uh, in this last tour, and they were fucking loud, you know, and I said to the guys that's loud and they were like, yeah, you're totally right.
Jeff McErlain:They're like, okay, you're we now understand what's going on, like what is an interesting thing for professional musicians. We're so cat like beaten down over there to understand that for this music to be what this music is, it needs to be at a certain volume, without a doubt, where it ceases to be that music.
Greg Koch:But isn't it funny, though, when you see a band and we've all been there, I mean, I've been on stage with people where it's like I can't escape. You know what I mean? It's like it's almost threshold of pain.
Jeff McErlain:Yeah.
Greg Koch:And I think well, I play loud but it's never that Right loud but it's never that Right. A lot of that is. You know, if you're using 100-watt amps cranked that's way louder than one 50-watt amp.
Jeff McErlain:you know reaching you know exactly, you know what I mean.
Greg Koch:Yeah, yeah, I do, I do, but you know what are you going to do. Anyway, let's talk a little bit about gear, because gear is fun, always fun. Now you know what are you going to do. Anyway, let's talk a little bit about gear, because gear is fun, always fun. Now you've got some high-end doggone amps back there. Is that the Bloomfield Drive that you got there?
Jeff McErlain:I have the Bloomfield Drive, I got the Classic Reverb signature and I got the Studio signature and Eli is my very good friend.
Greg Koch:Yeah, he's a good man. He's a good man.
Jeff McErlain:So people are like how do you have three T-Rocks? I am very good friends with the owner of the company.
Greg Koch:You know what?
Jeff McErlain:I mean that definitely helps, doesn't hurt. And, man, like, I grew up being a Marshall guy, you know, I went through the whole 80s. You know JMP, 90s, 80s, 90s, jmp1, you know, with the rack stuff, right. And then you know the Marshalls, marshalls, I think. I always think that people give marshall a bad name in the sense of, like they automatically think marshall is like 800 or 2000 or like the later sounding stuff, right, and to me marshalls have one of the greatest clean tones, totally, you know, like a. So that's an old super lead that I've kind of got a bit more to a bass spec. That you know sounds amazing.
Jeff McErlain:Yes, and the T-Rocks, how this, actually, how it really started happening was I was well, you know, I was working with Robin and then I had the Marshall, which was just, it was cool, but it was a tough. Know, 100 watt marshall on a gig, yeah, and then trying to get that to work right and, um, I had, honestly, you're talking about volume, I hadn't played that loud in decades, right, you know, and it was so much. So, you know, bless them. I mean, I, you know, I, I understand it, but it got to the point I think I I could say he won't care Like I would have to angle myself. So I was nowhere in the line of his amp because I had to turn my own stage volume down, because I was too aware of what I was playing. You know what I mean.
Greg Koch:Sure, I know what you mean. Sure, I know what you mean?
Jeff McErlain:Yep, yeah, I was above the mix on stage. I'm like no, I can't do this. So, um, the two rocks really came into being much more manageable and I just love the way they sound and Eli, the master volumes on them, or you know, it's just a really well-designed, beautiful sounding amp.
Greg Koch:Um, now do you find yourself using those where you'll set them just on the brink and then use pedals from there, or do you like to do the channel switching thing?
Jeff McErlain:no, no, I never, almost never, channel switch, and most of times in new york I run it clean with pedals, right, just because you know I got the master volume on my pedal board, you know, so I can control everything at all times. Sure, absolutely. And then also I just like using some effects and the delay in front yeah, yeah, not dealing with the effects loop and effects loops are cool, but that's another cable running to the back of your amp.
Greg Koch:Exactly.
Jeff McErlain:I understand it dog.
Greg Koch:Gone it. I know I had submitted to the, you know when I had that signature amp with that company with my same last name, of which I just parted company with not too long ago. I love the amps and there was a while there when I was just using a cord right into the amp because the channel switching actually made sense, yeah, and then I just didn't use any effect because it had harmonic vibrato on it and it had really nice reverb, so I just plugged straight into it. And then after a period of time it was during COVID where I started you know you want a couple little, you know, maybe a little delay here and there, a little this, that and the next thing, and you find yourself using your overdrive.
Greg Koch:And I've always kind of said this a million times on this doggone podcast thing, but I always find that when you're recording, you know an amp, overdriven, sounds more natural than a pedal per se. But pedals feel better live, I mean, where you can just feel that incremental push when you step on that screaming shit box and it just makes the world a better place. But it's like but you know, an overdriven amp just sounds better. It's the same thing when you got a Marshall cranked it, man it's, and you turn the volume down. It sounds awesome. But sometimes you crank that volume all the way up and you just want another increment.
Jeff McErlain:You know what I mean? Sure, I do, I do.
Greg Koch:And it's the great struggle.
Jeff McErlain:A lot of my stuff. There's a lot of ambience, for lack of a better word. You know delays and reverbs and I just really like that. It sounds trio, usually reverbs and I just really like that sounds trio usually. So I try to mix up sonically what's going on and I just find, with the, the channel switching and then, like we talked about the, that four cable method, like I, I don't have the patience for it. You know what I mean.
Jeff McErlain:And some guys got that shit dialed in. I'm like you know you never. Okay, here's the main thing you never know what you're gonna encounter. So if I'm running through a good sounding clean amp, good clean platform, then I have my pedals that I really enjoy. I've worked time-tested pedals that I love and I have complete control over the whole thing. Is it as great as if the Marshall were cranked? Maybe not, but that's not going to happen, right, totally, yep. So I'd rather be happy with, like, oh, it's a little loud, okay, I'm just going to roll off my volume pedal on the board or I'm going to turn up a little bit. You know whole thing. So, uh, yeah, but um, and channel switching, you know, like I don't know, I've, I've.
Greg Koch:I've gotten away from channel switching. Yeah, there's only a few times where it feels good, and then that I just go back to, although I have been. You know, I've been using this Tone King Royalist which I really, really like, and it's got two channels, but it's kind of an interesting thing because it's like two Marshalls in one. So you've got attenuators for both channels. I set one kind of JTM 45 and I have it up around, you know, five or four ish, you know, and then I can set the second channel to be more like a plexi and just dime it and you can go between those two things. That's pretty awesome.
Greg Koch:But then again I got to deal with if I'm using a bit of delay. Then I got to have the delay way down in volume for that second channel and then for the other channel. It's barely audible. So then I just started ended up using the clean channel, but even so I set it just on the brink of breaking up and that seems to be working. So you know, as you know, it's always some damn thing, but I find that anything less than 50 watts for me with my band I just can't do it, and I used to always love 10s, but with the way my son plays drums and Toby with the organ. I need 12. I need, I need that bigger speaker to just give me a little bit more oomph. And as much as I try to kind of curtail, uh, use the attenuator every now and again to try to behave, it's like. It's like within three tunes, it's like if I want to be heard, I got to fucking crank this thing.
Jeff McErlain:And so it's like, if I want to be heard, I gotta fucking crank this thing. And so, yeah, it's like for me it's that 30, 50 watts, 40, 50 watts. I need them because you want the overhead, overhead headroom, you want that you got some place to go, because there's nothing. I had like a 20 watt marshall, sounded great. Until that one gig I was like I gotta get rid of this thing. Like, right, sounds amazing. And then you play with a band, you're're like I got no place to go. I turn up, I just get more overdriven, right, yeah, so I just need that extra freedom. You know, and I've had this conversation, I'm sure you're the same with like, you know, like, for instance, like Matt Schofield we've talked about this a bunch Like, when other people play my guitar, they're like oh man, this is really loud.
Jeff McErlain:Other people play my my guitar, they're like oh man, this is really loud. I'm like, yeah, but I never have the volume on 10. Like, I'm not, it's, it's all interactive. So if anybody sits in on my rig, they're like yeah, like, yeah, like, no, no, no, no, no, it's not the way I. You know, I'm like am I playing that loud and people like no, no, you're not, it's, it's you just know you, you learn how to do your thing, and so it's all very dynamic and nerdy yeah.
Greg Koch:And volume knobs work. You know they're there for a reason.
Jeff McErlain:And it's everything is from the volume knob, which is to me. You know what I mean. I love that, you know. And nerdy stuff. Like you know, my friend Michael just made me this guitar, this beautiful, you know beautiful, and uh, like placid bluish creature, placid blue, yeah, yeah. And I got him to finally like said don't just don't put treble bleeds on us, don't put treble bleeds in, you know, for me, right, um, because I love how when you roll back it, if you have a buffer on the ground, you know they keep you're, you're just rolling off that little bit of spank on the top end and you know, so you have all those different things just on the guitar. So when you know, jeff, back period, you know what I mean. Like it's just everything. There is minimal pedals and it's all just from the guitar, you know.
Greg Koch:Exactly Correct. Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about just, you know, because it seems to be a subject that people talk about quite a bit I mean uh, online. I, you know I gotta be honest as much as I'm sure the same way we make our living in a huge way about online things. Yeah, I'm not one to engage in a lot of uh. I mean, if someone asks me a question, I answer it, but I do not like to get involved in brouhahas online about one thing or the other. I just don't do it. I mean, even if you know, I just don't.
Greg Koch:I never feed the trolls, I just like the best thing you do with a troll is just not respond at all and they just sit there on the vine withering away into insignificance, where they belong. Absolutely sit there on the on the vine withering away into insignificance, where they belong. But but the whole idea of you know making a living as a musician you know it's uh. You know you'll have people who you know had storied careers with you know some kind of a? Uh, a famous band at some point or maybe they did, you know had various different label deals back in the day.
Greg Koch:I've had label deals. I've always made more money doing it on my own. Everything I've ever done has been a result of kind of keeping control of everything myself. Yeah, and then, you know, pivoting when necessary. But the whole thing has been how do I make the music I want to play, uh, write the music I want to release and be able to wear a t-shirt, whatever funny hat I want to wear without, and do the very least to conform to what I think people want?
Jeff McErlain:yeah yeah, well, is that a question?
Greg Koch:as opposed to, you know, doing whatever has to be done to fit into the realm of what people think needs to be done in order to be popular and then being bitter that it doesn't work out. You know what I mean. It's like I love everything I get to do. It's fun. I figure you know I'm totally grateful for just the opportunity to do anything that I can musically and make a living, because it gets to the point where you think about, as you've done it long enough and you understand how the business works, just how the world works, yeah, like you're entitled to nothing.
Jeff McErlain:Zero. I have a lot to say about all of this.
Greg Koch:All right excellent.
Jeff McErlain:Kind of a constant conversation with many of my friends. So I'm not in the music business. I look at it that way. I make my living primarily from educational stuff, so I often see that I'm in the happiness business.
Greg Koch:Yes.
Jeff McErlain:You know I have a group of people who really enjoy the courses I put out in my YouTube videos, my teaching, that I connect with and that's extremely important to me as a person and an individual that in the realm of what the world really what comes at the end of the day is that you have family and you have friends, right, you know what I mean and hopefully, your health and security, all those things that are really the most important things. So I know, you know, when you, when you're teaching or you have somebody write you an email like I, you met a total breakthrough for me and you know it's just something you kind of did off hand. I mean, I take that very seriously and I feel like, okay, you know so what's important in life? Okay, yes, I wanted to be the big rock star. I'm going to cover a guitar player. You and I are friends with some of these people, right, and some of those guys are not all that happy right now.
Greg Koch:No, indeed not.
Jeff McErlain:You know, because the pivot never happened, or they, you know all these things, whatever, not the right personality, not, you know, there's a million things. So by when I said, when I got out of the music business, was you know, same thing inside bands that just kind of never went anywhere. You're touring it and suddenly just kind of went away, or that style of music, just sort of the label folded. You know all the things. Sure, Absolutely yeah, you know all those things. And then you're like, oh, I better start doing something on my own. You know, Am I without, you know, competitive envy at times? No, of course not. You see somebody who's, like you think, kicking butt and then you talk to them and they're like how are you doing this?
Jeff McErlain:you doing you know, like, how are you know? And you're like, oh, wait a minute, what you know, right? So, um, also, I kind of came to the conclusion at one point. I mean I like touring to an extent. Then after a while I want to go home and hang out with my family and my, my dogs and my cats. You know what I mean. Like I'm a, not a home body necessarily, but you know, when I was out for like six weeks at a time, I was like okay, right, okay. Then you come home with a chunk of change and you don't have any fucking work for a while because I was in a band. You know what I mean.
Jeff McErlain:I was in a band, you know. And so, um, the natural progression of what happened was I just started. I have to say the real pivot point for me was getting involved with TrueFire when it first started. Right, like filming videos with the air conditioner to turn off in between takes and Brad, the owner, laying on a couch in front of me while we're filming this video at like 720. Right, and I had a full head of hair. You know what I mean.
Greg Koch:Yeah, I understand, like we're talking 18 years ago.
Jeff McErlain:So, um, and so I just kind of embraced the technology. I started teaching on skype and things like that as soon as it started to become viable, right and um, uh, and the same thing happened with tree fire. Uh, you know, I love the guys. You know, there's nothing. I was like I have to do this on my own, like I have to take ownership of everything that I do, because that's how I'm going to make the most money and that's how we have complete control over everything that I do. And, you know, release things on a schedule. It's way more work than you know, but I just found that I'm happy on a certain. You're always like you. You know you're always going to want something you don't have.
Jeff McErlain:I think you know right yeah, but if you like you said you, if you stop for a minute and you, I go, fuck man, I get up every morning and all I got to worry about is how I, what do I do next with the guitar? Right, right, exactly. Like, holy shit, like, I made this happen, I made this, I'm making this work. Right, you know is it? Is it the way you imagined when you were, when I was at Berkeley, you know, looking at Ingvay and the cover guitar player, eric Johnson, with the? You know, and then you know, then you, you, as you know, you're friends with all these guys and you, you know it's, you find out. Well, there's a few things. It sounds we, I'm 56. I'm not. I think we're in the same general bracket.
Jeff McErlain:Where, when we first got into it, selling records was a viable thing, right, right, like there was a music business. You know what I mean Like, and then it all kind of changed. You know so, um, so either you just you pivot and you figure it out or you don't. You know, I know it sounds kind of harsh, but and it's funny, I have friends call me like oh, you know, man, I see that you're doing well and youtube thing's growing, and you're here all over the place like so can you explain to me what you're doing? I'll explain, explain. And they're like oh, yeah, fuck that you know.
Jeff McErlain:Like, okay, well, I have a schedule of videos and I might have to get a video out each week. I want to put out a course each month at this point, or at least a masterclass. I have to plan ahead. This video is not doing well. I got to do my thumbnails I to make sure the title is right. Oh, this video is Coder Tanking. Let me try a new thumbnail. Oh, now it's going up. Now, let's you know, like there's all sorts of analytics. It's like this is not.
Greg Koch:Yeah, it's not for the faint of heart.
Jeff McErlain:No, and I've talked to friends like you can't do it half-assed like the YouTube world, like I am fortunate to be have been advised by like Rick Beato, you know, like he's a friend and just kind of sitting down with me one day at dinner in New York like Jeff, you know, and just talking honestly about finances and you know like what can be done, what can be accomplished and all that and I'm like, wow, I gotta, I gotta shit or get off the pot, right, right, right. And I was at it sounds like a name drop and not me and Grissom were walking around NAMM a few years ago before COVID and I looked at him and he looked at me and in all the panel people were YouTubers.
Greg Koch:Right.
Jeff McErlain:You know, like not players. I mean not. You know, yeah, they're YouTubers, sure, players. I mean not. You know, yeah, they're YouTubers, sure. And you're like, wow, this is not, this has changed. And I said to him, like I had that moment of clarity of like, either I commit to this or I'm going to be a dinosaur.
Greg Koch:We interrupt this regularly scheduled gristle-infested conversation to give a special shout out to our friends at Fishman Transducers, makers of the Greg Koch Signature Fluence Gristle Tone pickup set Can you dig that? And our friends at Wildwood Guitars of Louisville, colorado, bringing the heat in the shadow of the Rocky Mountains. I will say that where I've. You know I do some stuff on my YouTube channel and I've been doing it during COVID. You know I did live stuff on my YouTube channel and I've I've been doing it during COVID. You know I did live streams, uh, four times a week. Now it's two times a week, but I'm on the road a lot.
Greg Koch:So I've had my buddy Ryan who uploads, uploads um reruns if you will, and you know we're trying to build the channel up, but but all my stuff that gets the most views are on everybody else's channels, you know. And of course I've done this stuff for Wildwood for years and you know and they've got pretty good numbers out there, but they never monetize their channel because those videos were different. It wasn't about the amount of views, it was just are the guitars selling? So whether a video would get a thousand views or tens of thousands of views was really irrespective of the mission. You know what I mean.
Greg Koch:So it was kind of an interesting. But at the same token, the whole reason why people know who I am is because those Wildwood videos and you know I had. You know articles in Guitar Player Magazine, you know record deals, you know on Steve Vise this and blah, blah blah. But all these guitar magazines and don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for all blah blah, but all these guitar magazines, and don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for all that stuff. But the vast majority of why people know who I am is because I did the Wildwood videos and it's well that, and you're just an unbelievably great guitar player.
Jeff McErlain:Communicator.
Greg Koch:Well, there's that. You know that was the one thing that helped was to be able to uh, to talk and be. You know, and I will say this, I I say this to my wife, you know, when I go to, I was at, uh, this thing at Sweetwater this past week they were doing guitar fest and to your point where you have people coming up and they say you know the nicest shit, like, hey, you know, this time when you you showed this thing and that completely opened this up for me and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, and they talk to you like they're buddies as opposed to fawning over someone, like when they get around someone like Yngwie, where it's like very much royalty and subject, you know what I mean. People's whole mentality changes and it's not good. You know.
Greg Koch:I remember I sat next to, uh, I sat next to Eddie Kramer at some thing years ago at uh, uh, that Cosmo music thing up in Canada, and they would just put random people together for signing. So I'm sitting next to Eddie Kramer and he's cool. You know I'm talking, you know a little bit of Hendrix stuff, but just, you know, kind of matter of factly, you know not super fan-ish, and we sit down and these people would come up to Eddie Kramer and they'd have their Zeppelin records and their Hendrix records and their kiss records and they would start shaking and they'd get really weird and be like can you, can you sign? No, no, sign it there, sign it right here. Hey, you know.
Greg Koch:And then and be totally like kind of psychotic and then they would turn to me and they'd be like hey, greg, what's going on? I really enjoy. You know what I mean. Totally normal, what's going on? I really enjoy. You know what I mean. Totally normal. Like we were just buddies and I was like you know what, I'll take that any day of the week over, some kind of weird reverential psyops?
Jeff McErlain:Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean like I it, it. It's just I'm trying. I'm trying to put my thoughts in order here. Yes, and I appreciate like you go to NAMM. I think it was funny. I was walking the dogs in the street with my wife one day and some guy's like excuse me, are you Jeff McElhain? And I'm like, yeah, you know. He's like oh man, I love your stuff, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he was really cool. I'm like, yeah, and there wasn't weird. So my wife said happy, you know perfect. She's like did you pay that guy to say that Are we married to the same woman yeah, exactly, yeah.
Jeff McErlain:Yeah, you pay that guy to say that Cause. What do you know him? I'm like no, but I agree with you entirely. It's like you've, they've. I mean, it's a bit weird when they act like they really know you and you're like, well, I don't know you, I don't know you, Right right, right, when they start saying hey, now your daughter and your son and you're like, oh, wait a minute.
Jeff McErlain:So that's very rare that that happens. But I'm very thankful and take very seriously the whole thing. I enjoy teaching. I really do. Now you know the difference between, say, you and I is like, you're known as a player more so than I am, because you really went full hog on that. I mean one, because you know your playing speaks for itself. But you made that your priority of you. Know that.
Jeff McErlain:You know, and I sometimes look at, I wonder, you know, if we get deep thoughts with jeff mackerman, like you know, there was a lot of fear involved, like so much failure prior to that of bands not making it like you're signed or you're like you're going to. You know, virgin came to our gig. They were we're really this close and our singer just said something really fucked up on stage and they were like, okay, yeah, it's not something. Yeah, you're done right, yeah, exactly, you know like, and you're like we get to this point that they're like we got jason flom at our fucking gig. And then you go ahead and say some crazy shit, right, ruined it. Yeah, like, just boom, you know like that and sorry, we're, we're going to pass. Okay, yeah, and so it's crushing. It's crushing.
Jeff McErlain:So the teaching thing I thought for me was really like you know, this is moving, this has got legs and I enjoy it. And you know a certain degree of security that I have not had the majority of my life. And look, I love the people that I meet. I mean some of the people in the walks of life. You know, teaching being what I used to teach I don't really teach privately anymore, but you know New York City, you meet some fascinating people and then I worked in that movie with Robin Williams and taught guitar and that Like all these things that just happen through that. So these life experiences that come around are really, really amazing. Um, and then that's, you know people like why do you live in new york city? Because these things happen when you live in new york city.
Jeff McErlain:For all the downsides there's if you use location, location. Location still holds true to a large extent. Yeah, totally. But um, so I envy, like you know. I look at you or oz. These guys are out there just playing all the time and you know, like, like Oz is one of those guys. That kind of like asked me, like what I do online. He's like, yeah, I know, fuck that. Well, good for you, man, but you know, like I, perfect that's you, don't you have clarity that that's not what you want to do, totally. So I like what I do and I got a kid who's got to go to college. You know what I mean.
Greg Koch:Well, that's a fact, you know. I mean it's like people have followed me around, like this buddy of mine I grew up with and went to college together and you know, he's a musician guy but he's a school teacher and uh, teaches English but gigs all the time. And he went with me to a NAMM show one time and he was following me around. He's like oh my God, he goes, how Cause you're going nonstop? You got to do stuff nonstop when I'm home. I mean I mean again, this is not complaints, but this is just. You know, when people think it's all Jaeger and blow and whore, you know what I mean. It's like, of course it's all those things, but I know, but I mean it's like, oh my God, uh, I'm out of merch. I just realized I forgot to get. Uh, you know, I got to order those hats and oh, I haven't had books for a while. I got to order the books. Oh, that book is out. Okay, I got to get the Grissom pedals. If I don't have those pedals for the tour, that's like.
Greg Koch:You know, that's a pivotal part of how we make the dough, and so you're thinking about all that stuff, let alone. Oh my God, I got to get the hotels. I got to blah, blah, blah. Oh, and then, of course, I have four kids and a wife and want to make sure I don't, you know, shortchange that in any way, shape or form. So there's all the things that go involved in that. So it's like you know, and I quit partying, it'll be 30 years this year that I do everything right. So, although I always think it's just me, but I never post any of that stuff online because it's like it's supposed to be anonymous, right, it's like I don't want to get added on the bags Like hey, you used to be a total shit heel drunk, wild man and now you're not. So you know, different life, I guess I just said it.
Jeff McErlain:So I guess I'm not being anonymous.
Greg Koch:Congratulations. Well, thank you, but the point is that there'd be no way I could do what I was doing if I was partying None whatsoever, especially at 58. Exactly, I mean there'd be no way I could do any of those things. So I mean I enjoy everything I get to do. But if people are like, well, you know. And then, but the other thing is people assume is like, oh, you're going on the road. And then, but the other thing is, people assume is like, oh, you're going on the road. It's like, well, the only reason why he's making money is because, you know, he's probably doesn't pay his kid. And it's like, no, motherfucker, it's because I pay everybody the same. Everyone gets the same as I get.
Greg Koch:But you know, we have a lot of merch that we sell, and I have been around long enough that, even if I play on a Tuesday night and Kepsie or wherever it is, enough people will come out that, even if it's kind of a not the greatest night attendance wise, I'll make up for it at the merch table and the next night might be sold out, and then the night after that might be another. Oh my God, there's 30 people here. You know what, though? They bought $1,500 worth of merch. You know what I mean.
Greg Koch:So, between all these different things, at the end of the tour you look at your money and, like we made grownup money. You know this is money that you know, my son and Toby, I mean last year, I mean it's, you know it's, it's salary money. So, uh, of course, I got all my other things that I do on top of that, because, again, we got kids, we got houses, we got cars. Yeah, um, but it's and, and and, as, as I say, I don't take any of it for granted, I'm not. You know. Everything I get to do, I enjoy doing, and I realized that any one of those things could dry up like that. You know what I mean In a heartbeat, in a heartbeat, and so you just make yourself available to the next thing that comes along.
Greg Koch:And you know if everything would go away and it would just be like, okay, well, I guess you know we'll live on what my wife makes and I'll just kind of gig around town. Well then, so be it, teach some lessons and be done with it. You know, but it's as you know. It's like you know, when you're talking about doing those videos and cutting those things up and figuring out the algorithms and then figuring out, okay, what's another way I can explain this that's going to be new and exciting.
Greg Koch:Oh, this guy just passed away. Now be a new, new and exciting. Oh, this guy just passed away, now we can. You know this is. You know, he was an idol of mine. You know, let's do a special segment on it. You kind of always got to have the antenna on and it's not just around sitting around like well, where, where am I going to gig this weekend? And you know it, just as far as like not considering all those other ways of making an income, because it's because of all those different things that you're able to do the stuff you really want to do, am I right?
Jeff McErlain:Yeah, absolutely yeah. So I mean it's this tour, like you know, I gotta, I gotta get my CDs printed up before I could be like, oh man, I don't have enough.
Jeff McErlain:you know just the thought that you know, yeah all those things, cause I'm in and then, um, but I can, it was all the I have, excuse me courses and pre-recorded YouTube videos that I'm busting my butt to get ready to put out whilst I'm on the road. Right, so I can. Yeah, so this is not, you know. So I'm on the road and I'm still running my business. Thank God you can, you can. It's all online and lots of planning, but you know, I think it comes down to the you know, entrepreneurial people. You know who happen to play guitar. You know who happened to play guitar.
Jeff McErlain:You know, I think, uh, as I have a students have dealt a lot with people in finance. Because you're new york, you know, like, you're like, wait what? Yeah, just come on the show with me, we'll jump on the jet. You're like what? You know what I mean. Like, just like, just when you, when you see that level, you're like you're like, wow, that one percent of one percent is something I cannot even comprehend. Right, you know what I mean. Yeah, anyway, you know, one guy says like man, you know big guy at a very huge finance, you know finance group. He's like I would hire you in a second. Because you like, if you were didn't if you were into finance. If you were, it didn't, if you were into finance, if you went in that road. Cause you're just, you pivot, you look for inroads for things, you're not looking back at stuff. Okay, now, okay, that's not working anymore. So what's the next thing I got to do? To keep on working.
Jeff McErlain:I mean, I I just attributed to coming from a Scottish Catholic upbringing where, you know, I remember working on my uncle's sheep farm in Scotland as a kid and you know he just was like I had to go on his hike and I didn't want to get out of bed. He's like get out of bed, you bloody, wee pansy. You know, you know, you know, and that was politically incorrect at the moment, of course, but you know, in 1982, but it was just, and my family has always been that way. I come up from that, that upbringing of like I had to be on my deathbed before I could stay home from school, you know like. So I just kind of look at, like you said, nobody owes me anything and although you'd like it, you know anything, oh, you're really man you've been.
Greg Koch:How'd you score that gig you like?
Jeff McErlain:oh, I love, don't you love that? Oh, man, you're like. Well, it's so weird. I was in my basement playing guitar and somebody just happened to hear me when they rocked off you know what I mean, you're like exactly yeah, it's a weird one and you're like well, I, you know I do abcdefg, you know I committed busting my ass here, pal, that's how it happened exactly, and you know, and happily so, and.
Jeff McErlain:But I mean, okay, so we talk about lamenting certain things, like I get let playing go, you know, for a really long time, because this weird the downside of sometimes my mentality would be the money would come first. I mean, I got a family, so I had to make the money come first, sure. And so you get so caught up in this thing and suddenly, like I haven't made a record in ages, like and I'm not even really gigging that much what happened? So people would say like, oh, I didn't know, you do, you don't do gigs right, or anything. I'm like, no, no, and nobody called me for gigs because I just wasn't in circulation, or I just thought you did your thing and I'm like, yeah, but that doesn't mean I can't do your thing Right, right, so, yeah. So I'm sure you probably get this too, because we're known as the guy who does our thing Right, and that's okay. So it's interesting, you know, and this is where I can't thank Robin enough to have just kind of said like let's do something together. Robin enough to have just kind of said like let's do, let's do something together.
Jeff McErlain:And then it got me back into the idea of like oh man, I really like playing the guitar in front of people the most. You know that is my favorite thing to do. Next, you know that's I like doing the videos and teaching, but having a great gig there's just nothing like it, you know. And so that was cool. So it may be, and at gigs it would be. After gigs, people come up to me like, oh man, oh it's, I have all your true fire stuff. I had no idea that you could play Right, I got that a lot, you know. And then what are you going to do when you're teaching? Show off on a video.
Greg Koch:Come on, it's not about you, but I also think a little bit of it is is this compartmentalization that people have in their brains. They can't fathom that you can do many things well and that you need to do all of those things in order to put a living together. And I and I and again I find this, you know, when I'm doing gigs with the band, I mean I'll have somebody come out and they'll be uh, you know, I had your, um, you know your Hal Leonard books and that's how I or I had this particular video back in the day, and that's how I know you. But, man, I really enjoy the band, it's great. Or they might come out and you know they come from all these different places, but the thing they always say is like, man, this is no.
Greg Koch:I mean, what you do online is no comparison to live. I mean, this is completely different. It's like, well, this is what it's always been about. Everything else I've ever done has been things I've enjoyed doing. I put my all into it, but it has all been life support so that I can do this, because this is what it's always been about. I mean, and that was early on. I mean I was always about having my own band. You know, I found out pretty early on. I was. You know, I am a good sideman, I play well with others. It's just that I've just realized that I don't want to. I'm not a follower.
Jeff McErlain:Yeah, yeah, oh. And somebody says hey, can you play the record, the solo? Like the record, you're like what?
Greg Koch:Right.
Jeff McErlain:Exactly. Then I had times to I have friends who do Broadway gigs and I go, you want a trail? I'm like, oh, yeah, sure I'll check it out. And they're one, like one or two trails. You're like, fuck this, right, yeah, I got to read that from the book and then call because they all, you know it's a very tight-knit community and so I'm not going to be first call, your second call, you know I'm not. You know I'm going to be the third guy. So I have to be up on the book, right. And then I know I'm going to get the notes because I'm an improviser.
Jeff McErlain:I just came to that conclusion at some point. I grew up, my teeth were cut with a bunch of like downtown new york jazz guys on the road playing funky, medley, fusion-y shit, and solo sections were just when you cued your head. And suddenly you're like wait, wait, wait, what no solo? Or like you want me to play what's on the record? Or I got to learn, like I just have no interest, right, I'm with you. So when I came to that conclusion at one point, like, yeah, I just love improvised guitar, everything that I love the most is that, the improvisation, it's the interaction for creating something exactly um, yeah, and I'm not knocking someone, like you know.
Jeff McErlain:You see, like you know, like roger waters, I go see him every time, you know as a fanatic, and you're like, oh, it's a glorified cover band and I'm not knocking the guys who've got great guitar player, you know, sure, but they gotta play those parts it's, you're in. And even Waters said it like someone. How does it feel when you know David Gilmour not on stage and she goes? Well, I have him on stage every night. You know that guy, he plays the guitar solos.
Greg Koch:Yeah, that's, that's not it.
Jeff McErlain:And then right and so and I'm not knocking someone, sure, no, I understand what you're saying and there's a challenge. But even what I've heard, this guitar player just popped out of my head. Great guitar player, oh, the guy's doing the gig. He just said well, you know, some nights when you're playing Comfort, your Number, you're just like, yeah, how can I hit that vibrato tonight? Because you just played that same solo every night verbatim and you have to find something creative that exists in that thing.
Greg Koch:But don't you think that it's changed from when we were younger? Because remember when we'd be into a band and you'd get the record and the band was a trio or maybe a four-piece, and you know that they overdubs things. But then there had to be the live version, right, so they had to rework the song for stage and then that became its whole other thing and you'd always be, oh, I prefer the live version more. And then what has seemingly happened with the advent of legacy bands and radio kind of not embracing new music, even by those legacy bands, that they'd go out and see these bands sometimes only featuring the original sound man, you know what I mean. And they would just they want to hear those tunes as they were on the record and it just totally I have no interest in it. I just I want to hear.
Greg Koch:That's why I always loved the Allman brothers is because you knew it was. It was going to be different every night, whatever kind of came to mind they were going to do and any band that improvises. But I feel that it's it's become kind of a um, as far as like the everyday person, you know, like if they go out and see a show, for the most part, they're expecting that legacy act to not take liberties with their arrangements. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Jeff McErlain:Yeah.
Greg Koch:Yeah, and that to me is just, uh, it's a little sad.
Jeff McErlain:I don't want to get caught up in, like I think Steve Martin put it best he called it old, old fogeyism right, which which I think can be rampant on the YouTubes of the people in our generation, like you know, look, there's still great music being made out.
Jeff McErlain:Oh, no doubt. And people say like, oh, there's no good music anymore. No, you're not looking hard enough. Of course there is, I mean, a little cliche. It's more like something like Madison Cunningham. You're like I saw her live a few years ago, knowing my friends are like, oh, you got to come check her out, she's great. And I'm like, all right, this is amazing, this is great. You know what I mean. Yeah, and it's not just like great guitar playing Cause like we love guitar players, but my favorite stuff are the guys who play guitar and great tunes. Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. So I don't want to sound like old fogey, like you know that I mean there's a lot of great stuff out there. But I'm with you, I'm not interested in hearing a live cover situation too much you know. Cause it in hearing a live cover situation too much you know, because it's just, it's not what, it's not my bag, man Right.
Greg Koch:I mean, I understand it, you know, I totally get it and I understand the need it's not for us. But it's just not our thing which is fine.
Jeff McErlain:It's just not for us. And that's when people say like oh, don't you love them, like, yeah, it's great, just not for.
Greg Koch:Look, I don't need a million people into my shit, I just need enough. And as long as you have enough people into it and you get to do your thing, man, I'm happy in a pig and squalor. I don't know because we, I mean and not to get too old fogey about it but we know that more often than not, that impetus that took that person or group over the edge to make them more mainstream or whatever the case, most likely was bullshit. I mean, yes, it had to be good enough, and then back in the day, there seemed to be a lot of exceptional people that you know was able to get past the gatekeepers, but for the most part, bullshit rules the roost. Yeah, I mean that's not. I mean that's just the way it is. I mean we see it in anything from you know politics to movies, to, I mean, the way the world functions. And, and again, it's not to be. I don't, I don't get bitter about it. I'm even more grateful, knowing how things actually run, that I have it as good as I do.
Jeff McErlain:That's the way I look, I'm nodding my head in agreement, which you cannot see. Yes, yeah, I'm trying to think what I was going to say there. But that, but it's, it's. I think it's just when you get older, you know, you just cut through the bullshit more. You just see bullshit more clearly and you're not, you know, and you're like, yeah, I got time for that, right, you know people are excited about this or that and like, yeah, what's that? What? Like, you know, I don't even. Yeah, so is that? How's that going to affect me? It doesn't. It's the same thing when you flip through like instagram or some sort of thing, or like my apple app news and you're like I have no idea who this famous actor is that they're talking about. I have no idea who they are and I don't care exactly. I don't care whatsoever.
Greg Koch:Exactly correct. Yeah, I got enough stuff to worry about.
Jeff McErlain:Yeah, well, it sounds like we're. This can sound like we're complaining, but like I'm not complaining, it's. It's been great. I'm very appreciative that we the technology has provided us a way that we can are master of our own destinies in that sense, you know, if you work your ass off, you keep your your. You know, follow the trends, do what you got to do, you got to, you know and stick with it. And it sounds like you can do it. But it's a lot of fucking work.
Greg Koch:Well, no doubt about it, and but it's like one of those things where I I think I posted a little thing not too long ago, which I don't usually like to post, that kind of stuff but I did it anyway. Uh, kind of just saying hey, you know, I drove seven and a half hours set up, you know, work, the merch table, play the gig, and I loved every minute of it. You know, because when you love what you do, it's not work. I mean, there are moments where you get up and you're like, oh my God, I'm dragging ass. But to your point, you wake up and you go in your room and you're surrounded by your guitars and you're like I get paid to do this shit. I get to play and sit and make the music I want to do and people want to hear it and I have fun deconstructing it and showing them how to do it and they love that. They're so grateful for it. It's a, it's a beautiful thing.
Greg Koch:I think you know when you think, when you think back to you know I remember uttering the words when I was in high school or whatever, I'm going to be rich and famous. You know what I mean. It's like that was the goal to be rich and famous. And and then you realized you were around some other people that thought the same way, but then you realized you just loved playing so much that all that other shit didn't mean anything anymore.
Greg Koch:Yeah, you know, you're just like, well, yeah, if that happens, maybe it'll happen. And of course, you know you have delusions of. Well, if you're really really good of, can maybe sing like an angel and have a look that's undeniably attractive and can play your ass off, well then maybe you might get plucked. But if you're just someone that plays really good and writes some tunes that are right off the beaten path and so on and so forth, you're gonna have to work your ass off in order to to make a living and uh, but you know what? Again, we've somehow managed to do it, which I um again yeah, I mean, I'm, you know.
Jeff McErlain:And then there's also that philosophical question of having been around. Uh, some of those people at the 1% of the 1% Right, are they happier than me? No, no, generally speaking, they are not. I agree with you, it's never enough. Things are never enough, right. And they're looking to the guy who's got 50 billion as opposed to 5 billion and you're like, like there was some sort of video I saw that you know, like if you made $10,000 a day, it would take you how many years to make a $2 billion. Like some sort of crazy thing. Like you know, in 200 years you still wouldn't have as much money as this guy of making $10,000, whatever the you know, you understand what I'm saying. So you know, and my wife is super grounding in a sense, when we talk about this, she's like how much more? Like you know, yeah, you want to make more money, but I mean what's enough? Like not that I'm making, you know what I'm saying. Like it's living in New York City is a very different equation of how much is in something.
Jeff McErlain:Yeah, but you understand what I'm saying. It's like, you know, at some point you're like, oh, you know, things are okay, like I, you know, I, I can take some time off, I can do a tour, and I can. You know, it says, do these things, and so, yeah, I'm really grateful about it and it's cool. So you just kind of settle in and go yeah, I play guitar for a living. How I figured it out? Still trying to figure it out, but I am super happy. You know, absolutely, it's a glorious thing.
Jeff McErlain:Yeah, it's a glorious thing it just never gets old. I mean, I wake up in the morning.
Greg Koch:I'm sure you're the same way. First thing I do is get a little coffee and if my wife's getting ready for whatever, I'll be like, all right, I'll just pick up the guitar and just sit there and start playing until she comes down. And then we'll shoot the shit for a while and just sit there and play and it's like this is awesome. I mean I, that's my favorite thing to do. I don't know about you, but I don't have hobbies.
Greg Koch:It's like I've made this joke a thousand times. It's like I'm not in a dart league, I don't. I don't golf. I can't imagine dedicating three hours to a game. I just can't. I just can't imagine. I mean, I can see it and I did. I, it's not like I haven't done it. I remember one time I went up with this old buddy of mine I grew up with and he's like let's go golfing and I can't golf for shit. But I went out and uh, and I realized, oh my God, for like three hours here, no one can you know, I don't have to take any calls, I'm not expected to be anywhere else, I'm out in nature. I was like, okay, I get it, but at the same token, three hours away from what I need to do is just I can't fathom it.
Jeff McErlain:Yeah, well, this is that entrepreneurial kind of driven thing, like I talked to my friends about this, like I can't relax, like I am. You seem kind of like that guy to me too, like the brain is always maybe I'm just projecting, but you know, sunday night, saturday, saturday night I'll be hanging out. Maybe you have the dinner with my wife. And I'm like shit, I got to get the course done, I got to get this. I got to think about what. Okay, I got it. I haven't. You know, like I got it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, wake up in the morning first thing you're like well, you know, like, all right, I got to get this done, I got to get that done.
Jeff McErlain:How's this video doing? Like it's so, it's, it's weird. But, um, you know, it's funny. At one time I was at a party when we were talking about music and he's like well, do you have any hobbies? And I'm like like it was a very dismissive thing. I said then you don't understand what I do, right, because there's no, I don't see there's no room for other hobbies. Yeah, I like watching movies, I like reading books.
Greg Koch:Yeah, reading books, you know exactly, but I I like reading books, reading books you know.
Jeff McErlain:But I mean, yeah, to go out and play golf, like for hours or like what do you mean? Painting Like this is so all encompassing whether it's and happily so like so much stuff, yeah, like watch you play something. I'm like, oh, how's, I don't have that in my bag. And then suddenly you're off and running and it's an hour or two later and then you just where did?
Greg Koch:this start.
Jeff McErlain:Oh, I started this from somebody that's a Greg play. Oh, like, there was a video you had posted something on Instagram of you playing some sort of blues on a Strat and I was just watching your vibrato and I'm like, fuck, what great vibrato. Oh, thank you. But that was it. I'm like okay and I'm not. But then, but that was it, I'm like okay and I was like okay, he was doing that whole Clapton sort of thing and I find that something that I have. It's a weakness of mine. Like you know what I mean. Like you're got those bigger hands. I think there's something to do with it too, but it was so controlled. I'm like I know what I'm going to work on today.
Jeff McErlain:And then suddenly you know you just start to do your own thing. Absolutely it sends you down and you're perfectly happy and I think most of my friends, like you, know they're going to go out and have a smoke or something. I'm like I'm just going to play guitar for five minutes and then suddenly like everything sort of centers again and you just right and you're like this is the greatest gift.
Greg Koch:If I don't play guitar for a day, I am not pleasant. Oh man Right, I get a little testy. Yeah, me too. I mean as testy as I get.
Jeff McErlain:It can even be for like 10 minutes, right, I mean even just to just connect, you know, um, but yeah, it's a, it's a real I don't want to sound I, I I'm torn between being this sort of esoteric at times and being, you know, anti-theist, as you know, richard dawkins, or, or you know, uh, you know and um, this, this pragmatic scotsman in me, but, like you know, it's a real gift like I can't imagine, you know, near, I can't imagine, um, it sounds really douchey, but sometimes, sometimes, like, what do other people do, like, when you don't have the thing like what? Well, absolutely, when somebody doesn't have a thing like a passion, I'm, I, it sounds. I don't want to come off as sounding, you know, condescending, but I'm just so grateful that.
Greg Koch:Well, exactly when you get to be our age and you think about other friends of ours are like retiring, and you're like what do you mean retiring? What does that mean? What are you going to do? You're going to sit here like I'm going to play until I can't play anymore. Yeah, happily.
Jeff McErlain:Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, and so I just I just find that to be, you know, very, very fortunate. So you know, how do we go from gear into this? Actually, you asked that specific question. Oh, and the online haters I get plenty of them too, and I just look at like that's like the guy in the subway who's a jerk, you know, like there's just jerks everywhere, like they just happen to be in front of a keyboard to and I try not to post anything negative, what's it do? Just brings everybody down, exactly.
Jeff McErlain:There's so much negativity in the world, why be like Totally. It doesn't bum you out when you're like flipping through like threads or something, and it's a nice post. And I'm an animal lover, we just rescued another cat, like all this kind of stuff, and you watch something. So my, my feed is guitars and animals. It's just funny.
Greg Koch:So I'm a sucker for the animal video myself.
Jeff McErlain:Yeah, yeah. And then sometimes like, oh, you should never do that to a cat. Blah, blah, blah, blah blah, and you're like it's like somebody sticking their finger in your food. You know what.
Greg Koch:I mean. Exactly this person just find you know, I will say that it's. I'm sure you're the same way. I've been extraordinarily fortunate that, because of the nature of of what I do is not real. You know know-it-all-y, or you know kind of you know testosterone-y, as they say. Yeah, I don't know, anybody says that, but anyway, uh, it doesn't really invite.
Jeff McErlain:Is that by chef? By Rd?
Greg Koch:Exactly, it's a delicious Tasteroni, exactly Some kind of pasta dish, um. But I don't get too many, you know, overt, just haters. I mean every now and again, but I never. I mean I used to. If it was just so outlandish I might put something funny as a response, but now I just, I literally just don't do anything, cause you know and then cause a lot of times I'm sure you're the same way. It's like someone will write something You're like is this person even real? And then, and then you'll click on their ID and you'll go over and they'll have their YouTube page, will have no followers and they've and they've only commented on two things, and it's both on your channel and you're like boy. I wonder if I know this person.
Jeff McErlain:Yeah, yeah, what's? Yeah, I know.
Greg Koch:What's the modus operandi here?
Jeff McErlain:You know what I mean, I think my favorite one I got was you were the worst guitar player in the world. I'm like the worst. There's no worse. Thank you, I know it's just well. You know, I think there's a certain degree of of jealousy, you know what I mean. Or there's this they they have an image of what they think it's all about, or or something, or they think you know it's a weird, you know, or something you know.
Jeff McErlain:It's a weird, you know, people are angry all over, and I think you know, unfortunately, I think the world has become angrier, Right, and I think social media is a big part of that anger. Yeah, you know, and I think so Would. People would never say the things to you. Nobody would come up to you in a bar and say like you're the worst guitar player in the world. So the social norms, so I just try to concentrate on the positive. But those bug you. The ones that bug you the most and I've heard somebody talk about this are the ones that kind of have a grain of truth to it. You know deep down that maybe you didn't kill that thing. You know what I mean, Right, yeah, and then you're like why is this person living in cliche rent free in my brain, you know? And then you'll think about it all day and you're like I don't even know this fucking guy.
Jeff McErlain:Like who is this guy? You know, it's like the guy like I said, New York that bumps into you and is like a dick.
Greg Koch:You're like, it's been an absolute blast shooting the breeze with you chewing the gristle, as it were. We're actually going to be out in your neck of the woods. It'd be great to see we're going to be uh, I think we're at the Iridium on November 24th. It's a Sunday.
Jeff McErlain:Fuck. Okay, here's the last time you played Iridium. I was playing a gig with Matt Schofield at the Bitter End same night.
Greg Koch:Oh, you're kidding me.
Jeff McErlain:That's why I was not at your last gig, and I will be in England teaching at the end of November for guitar breaks, so I, once again, I will not One of these days we'll get it together. Yeah, it's too bad.
Greg Koch:We'll make it happen one of these days. Dog on it yeah well it was a pleasure man. An absolute pleasure talking with you. Dog on it. Yeah Well, it's a pleasure man, An absolute pleasure talking with you. It was great hearing your story a little bit more and getting inside your brain and hopefully we'll cross paths soon. Yeah, that'd be awesome, man, All right my friend, take it easy, have a good one.
Jeff McErlain:You too, Take it easy man.
Greg Koch:You got it. Bye-bye, bye. Thank you so much, folks, for tuning in. Special thank you to Wildwood Guitars of Louisville, colorado, and the mighty Fishman Transducers for making this podcast possible. If you enjoyed yourself, ladies and gentlemen, please subscribe and review so that people can get the word out that this is worth experiencing. Can you dig it? Thanks again. We'll see you soon or you'll hear me soon.
