Chewing the Gristle with Greg Koch
Listen in on Greg Koch's conversations with his guitar-hero friends. Every episode Greg unleashes his fiendish humor and unique perspective as "one of the most famous unknown guitar players in the world", asking his often-famous musical friends the questions that we all want to know the answers to! Each episode is brought to you by Fishman and Wildwood Guitars
Chewing the Gristle with Greg Koch
Mike Irish
What happens when two guitar virtuosos reunite after years apart? Greg Koch welcomes his former mentor Mike Irish to Chewing the Gristle for a masterclass in musical wisdom that spans far beyond technique.
Mike Irish, who taught at the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point when Greg was a student, shares his refreshingly inclusive teaching philosophy that embraced students' existing musical interests instead of forcing them into traditional jazz molds. "I really had no desire to make more Joe Passes and Pat Martinos," Irish explains. "I just wanted to take the talent that was there and nudge them in directions they might be interested in." This approach proved transformative for many students, including Koch, who found validation for his genre-blending musical vision.
The conversation explores the practical realities of sustaining a music career through what Howard Roberts called "industrial guitar" – the bread-and-butter gigs that keep musicians afloat. Both men share stories from their journeys, from Irish's innovative approach to building jazz programs by focusing on small combos rather than big bands, to Koch's revelation about the creative and financial benefits of mastering solo guitar performance.
With warmth and humor, they discuss their musical influences, from Chet Atkins to James Brown, and reflect on how technology has transformed music education. "There's really no reason to suck at this point," Koch quips about the wealth of instructional content available online today – though both agree that motivation and thousands of practice hours remain irreplaceable.
Whether you're a guitarist, music educator, or simply appreciate heartfelt conversations between passionate creators, this episode offers insights into not just how to play, but how to build a sustainable, joyful musical life. Drop in on this reunion between two masters and hear how their musical paths have woven together across decades.
Ladies and gentlemen, can you believe it? It's already time for season six of Chewing the Gristle with yours truly Greg Cox. So many delightful conversations to look forward to. We'll talk about music. Yeah, sure, but you know what else we're going to talk about Anything that comes to mind, so stay tuned. We'll talk about music. Yeah, sure, but you know what else we're gonna talk about Anything that comes to mind, so stay tuned. We got some good ones for you. Chewing the Gristle, season six.
Speaker 1:Ladies and gentlemen, this week on Chewing the Gristle, we have one of my big mentors, Mike Irish, taught me at the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point. He is a guitar playing leviathan as well as being an extraordinarily talented educator. This week, we're Chewing the Gristle with Mike Irish. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, welcome once again as we gather around the Gristle Fire for a little Chewing the Gristle with yours truly Gregory Caulker. I'm here with a mentor of mine, a great musician, a great educator and a cool cat, who I have not had a chance to speak with in quite some time. So I'm looking forward to having a convivial conversation via the inner Googles with the mighty Mike Irish. Mike, how the hell are you?
Speaker 2:I'm doing good, man, I'm still above ground, I see.
Speaker 1:Now, for those who don't know, mike was my instructor. Actually, you know, we first met when I was a junior in high school and you were up at a place called shell lake, which was a summer program uh, it was for high schoolers mostly, right, mike?
Speaker 2:yep, yep, yep and uh, when I, when I first met you, uh, uh, I remember we had to, we had to do like the uh, guitar auditions and all that stuff and this, this I think you were only six, five then and uh, and you walked in and played some stuff for me and basically my jaw dropped, you know, I just said whoa man, this guy can really play. And so, yeah, that was back at Shell Lake and you were playing a Telecaster, yes, and I think that's the week that you swapped with John Shoemaker, you are correct. And you said oh, I got to try that 335 because Mike just said hey, this Larry Carlton guy, man, you got to check him out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was so crazy. I remember you playing. Well, what was so great about it, too, is that at that time, you know, as a guitar player, so many times you interacted with quote unquote jazz people. They were dismissive of guitar players usually in general, and if you were not playing a, you know, a hollow body with flat world strings and you had the audacity to bend strings, you were a heretic. That's right, that's right. So what was so awesome about you is that you were like, hey, what you're doing is really cool. If you wanted to add this other stuff in, you should check out these guys who are kind of in that mold as well. So that was unbelievably fortuitous for myself.
Speaker 2:Well, I had good mentors. I mean, thank you for mentioning me as a mentor of yours, but I had really good mentors and in particular one, don Kiernan, up here at Michigan Tech. He had the philosophy of giving people a chance. You know, he just said, okay, and he was pretty good at recognizing talent, but give them a chance. And his idea of education was okay, take them where they're at and just nudge them maybe a direction that they might be interested in. And so when I was at Stevens Point, I really had no desire to make more Joe passes and Pat Martino's and things like that. I just wanted to take the talent that was there and just say, hey, check this out. In your case I think it was Larry Carlton, and I think I talked about Robin Ford, because Robin Ford had played with Miles Davis a little bit and I thought, well, that's kind of a neat way to, you know, satisfy the academic jazz folks with Miles Davis. And then Robin Ford, great blues player.
Speaker 1:Right, totally, absolutely. And what's been so wild about it is I've got to be pretty chummy with Robin over the years, which has just been bizarre to figure that full circle yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, after you were at school, you know, while you talked about in your, your website and things like that about George coming and having the talk with me. Yes, you know, you know every well, you come from a family of professionals, right, you know? Right, you've their doctors in the families. Your father was a lawyer, is that right?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, my dad was a lawyer and, you know, my siblings weren't, you know, like doctors or lawyers, but they were definitely professionals, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So you know, I mean I can see the concern because you know the young spawn comes forth and says I want to be a troubadour, right and right away. What flashes before your eyes is well, let's see poverty eating out of a dumpster and no grandchildren.
Speaker 1:Boy, we're in for a surprise, that's right.
Speaker 2:So anyway, after you got out of college, you know I followed you. I've been following you surreptitiously. You know you got to look behind man, I'm there somewhere. But I know you started doing some studio work in Chicago. Yes, you know, and that was before the internet and all that stuff, and I was just going. I hope enough people can hear this guy play, because if that's the case it's going to catch on. But I would imagine I don't know, did you have some like lean years in there at all?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean, you know, when I got back from from school, um, uh, you know I was in a band, uh, with that Susan Julian gal and and that was a great band and she had just got off the road with the, the Bodine's, and they had just opened up for, you know, u2 all over the world and she had management interest and all that kind of stuff. And when I play with her band I was like man, this could be it. It's the right amalgam of all the different things I'm into. And it was a great band. It was funky but it was bluesy. There was a little bit of jazz involved in there as well, so it was kind of a cool amalgam. But it was kind of my first foray into realizing how the business works or doesn't work. And so after about a year of doing that I realized this isn't for me. I got to do something else.
Speaker 1:So I was up in Minneapolis for a few months and didn't play one gig the entire time. I was up there and I knew people too, but it was just. It was the strangest, strangest thing. It was very, very clicky and and I was having, and then I got a call from somebody who said, hey, come back, let's put a band together. And and it was a guy I really looked up to this, this, this bass player, singer, guy from, from Texas who could sing great.
Speaker 1:So I came back and I did this band with him for a couple of months and we started to play all the clubs and festivals. And then he's like man, I want to move down to Nashville. I've got some songwriting interests, publishing interests. So he leaves and leaves us high and dry, and so I was left with the alternative. I've had all these gigs on my lap and I said, well, we could either just cancel them or I could put my own band together. And so I realized, right then and there, that I was just going to run my own band. Yeah, was that the Tone Controls? That was yeah.
Speaker 2:So that goes back to like 1990, late 89. Well actually 1990, right, yeah, yeah, and then.
Speaker 1:I just kind of did it from there and we would encounter various different peoples over the years that you know, whether it be the guys from Tower of Power, or one of the guys the guitar player was going to try to get us a deal, or Paul Barrere from Little Feet, or my buddy Catfish Hodge, or you know, t Lavitz, all these different people I knew. And or you know T Lavitz, all these different people I knew, and they really enjoyed the band and they would do sessions with us and gigs and so on and so forth. But there was just never anybody going. Hey, why don't you play with us over here? So I was like, maybe I'm just destined to do my own thing, yeah. And then when the Fender thing came along, that was my opportunity to kind of expand it beyond the area here. Because you know, the one thing I always ran into was, you know, the stylistic thing. You know I always liked all these different things. You know what?
Speaker 1:I mean I like blues, I, you know, and I considered that kind of being you know the nucleus of what I did. But I also enjoyed all these other different elements and wanted to add that all in there, not to talk about me because I want to talk about you. But yeah, that's kind of what happened. And then, you know, I actually was through a Fender clinic, that down in Chicago, the guy Gary Gand, who owned Gand Music, he's like man, do you do sessions? And I go well, yeah, I mean I get called here and there back in Milwaukee. He's like, well, I know a guy down here that he does sessions all the time. This guy named Terry Fryer. And you know when people say that stuff, but you know, do you ever really get a call? And literally two days later I got a call to do a session and then off off to the races. So I would go down there fairly often and do stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's like we, you know, told Kit when we're at Stevens Point. You know, steve Zenz and I had well, just short story long, no long story short.
Speaker 2:We've got plenty of time new dean there that they really needed to have. We were just going to do a jazz studies minor on the music education degree. That's what it started as. But the new dean came in from Cincinnati Conservatory and said to Don Green, the department chair at the time, and said hey, you know, you should really have a jazz program. And when I was a graduate student there, I just dreamed big man. So I wrote up a proposal to Don and it was just a project for a master's degree program and I explained exactly what they needed the personnel, they needed, the budget. I just went the whole nine yards man and I got an A on the project. So Don stuck it in his drawer somewhere and then the new dean comes in and talks to him and says oh hey, don, I think you should think about having a jazz program. And he said oh yeah, here, he whipped it on his desk and it was about a week later. The dean calls up Don and says get this guy in here, I want to talk to him, no kidding.
Speaker 2:And I brought in Steve Zenz and we went in and we sold it and he said well, we got to have some metrics. You know academia, right, right. And so some, some metrics as far as enrollment, graduation rate, retention and all that that stuff. So anyway, he basically gave us three years and so Steve and I, you know, went to work, and I was, you know. They said, well, your, your teaching load should be 12 credits. Well, I was up to 17 and I'm lucky I'm still married because it was my wife, deb, who said, you know, while I was still teaching, public school says, says, you know, you, really, you got to go to graduate school. So she had a cherry job at that time. So she put me through school and I'm forever grateful because, you know, I ended up with 35 years in the college ranks and everything. So it was, it was great. So anyway, we put it on Paul's desk and he gave us the metrics and, long story short, we brought in the three-year metrics in two years. Excellent, and the rest is history.
Speaker 2:So then we were able to bring in some other people John Rad, bob Case, you know and we got the vocal jazz thing going with Chuck Reichel and all those people, and so it was really successful. But our approach was everybody else was doing like Lawrence Conservatory and UW-Green Bay and Eau Claire and, you know, all the Midwest powers. There they were all doing big band. So you know the big band, you know we got five big bands here, but Steve and I I, since we're rhythm section guys, which is unusual for a director of jazz studies totally yeah. So we said no, no, the world doesn't, uh, you know, revolve around big bands anymore. Right, it revolves around rhythm sections. So that's what we did. We, you know, we had a ton of combos. You guys, you know, were playing in combos and stuff you split off. I think you had a what cold shot, you know, at the cabin and all those places where you said that you majored in beer, which may have been true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was a little thirsty back then, but you know I'm still here.
Speaker 2:Six, seven can consume a lot of the taste.
Speaker 1:Yeah, back in the day. Yeah, what was wild about back then was, just to your point. It's like, you know, when I was looking for a place to go, it was very, very frustrating. I remember Herb Ellis had a new kind of GIT-ish school in San Antonio. I think it was called the Southwest Guitar Conservatory, even though technically that's not really Southwest, but anyway, and I was interested in going there because I was into the blues thing and so on and so forth.
Speaker 1:And Stevie Ray had just come out, the fabulous Thunderbirds and this guy, eric Johnson, had come out, and of course everyone from Freddie King to Johnny Winter and Albert Collins all those guys were Texas guys. So I was like I need to go to Texas. And I remember talking to my parents. I was like, listen, I want to go to this place down in Texas. And they're like, well, is it an accredited place? And I didn't know what accredited meant from anything you know. And they're like, well, you know you need to get a college degree. So just, you know, pick out any UW school and um, and we'll pay for it. I'm like, awesome, of course, back then paying for college was you know what, $1,400 a year or something like that.
Speaker 1:But um, um anyway. So I remember always hearing that Eau Claire was the place to go. Yeah, that was. That was the jazz school, jazz school du jour. And uh, and so I applied, I got in, I got my roommate assignment, all of that stuff. And then somewhere over that summer, uh, prior to my freshman year, I found out that there was no electric guitar teacher up there, there was only a classical teacher. That's right, I'm not going there. And so I didn't go.
Speaker 1:And so that first semester of what would have been my freshman year I took off and let me tell you, that was when all your friends are going off to school and doing stuff and you're, you know, it was just the self-esteem peters out just a tad. And then I remembered the great experience I had with you at Shell Lake and my buddy, bill Young, was already going to school in Stevens Point, yeah. And so I was like, oh my gosh, she's teaching up at Stevens Point. So then I went up there, we visited with my dad, or like this is the place, this is the place to go. And but let me ask you this, cause I think you know, obviously music businesses it changes every minute, but you know, back then it seems like the two career paths that made the most sense for someone attending someplace like Stevens Point back then was either to go in to academia to be a teacher or back then you know what we call a lounge musician. What? Because there were.
Speaker 1:Even in Stevens Point itself there was a holiday inn where you know you would go, and was it like week or two week increments where you would literally travel all around the kind of little United States just putting together, you know, gigs at these and you would start off the night doing kind of cocktail music, jazz standards, so on and so forth, and then you would play the songs of the day and people would dance and hook up with their cougars or whatever. But that was. That was kind of the recipe back then, right yeah, yeah, and and people could work.
Speaker 2:You know, howard roberts howard roberts called that industrial guitar. I like that man, you know, and and and it's, it's putting food on the table and uh, you know, I the thing about some of the jazzers that I just, you know, I would go out on, you know the pop gigs and things like that, and you always have the saxophone player that shows up that would just go oh, you know, I got to do this. I want to do Giant Steps, I want to do Countdown, you know Right, I want to play Coltrane and you know, on break I'd say, look, ace, don't all that, I want to play, I want to play Coltrane. And you know, on break I'd say, look, ace, don't take the gig. Don't take the gig because it's stupid. It's stupid that you're here. Either you do the gig and do it right, and enjoy it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, and, and you know, some, some people, would you know, look at me and go like, well, well, you're a music slut and everything, and I go. No, I don't think so. I think I want to do whatever job I have as well as I can. Right, and that's what we were trying to get across to people at Stevens Point. We weren't telling you that, hey, this is going to be, you know, your dream gig. But you know, if you play the dinner theater at Chanhassen for two weeks, you can throw, you can put down some good cash, no doubt.
Speaker 1:No doubt about it.
Speaker 2:And then and then that can allow you to do what you want to do, right? You know West Montgomery did that. You know everybody goes. I can remember when he was recording for AMM Records. You know everybody says, well, it's a guy that just plays the octaves. You know and he had some great pop music that just you know, windy and all that. But then you go and look at the riverside recordings. Right, he was a fucking genius. Yeah, no question you can blip that out yeah, absolutely no, that's all good west said that.
Speaker 2:West said that. Okay, I'm, I'm popular. You know people are giving me crap about it, but now I can afford to. You know, do a week at the jazz gallery in Milwaukee, right, right, and things like that.
Speaker 1:So, Well, the bottom line is is that I think that there's uh, I would I was just talking about this yesterday with somebody and it's something that's crossed my mind lately is that I think there's a lot of people that look at their musical abilities as just a means to an end oh, I've done this and I've got this and so I'm entitled to that as opposed to the people like myself and yourself who just love to play and it's all about being in the moment. So, whether we're doing a teaching gig or doing a video or doing a cocktail gig or plan our own stuff, I enjoy it all in various like. It's like I talk about pizza. It's like I like all pizza. I like some better. Same thing with coffee. It's like there's not bad coffee to me.
Speaker 2:For sure, for sure. Yeah, that's the way it's gotta be, man. Um, yeah, I. I retired from Michigan tech in 2018 and somebody said to me the other day, or you know? I said well, are you still? You know? What are you? What are you going to do? Are you going to still do music? I go, are you kidding, right? So I've got a. I, you gonna still do music. I go, are you kidding, right? So I've got a. I've got a horn band. It started out as a four-piece blues band that we put a funny little story. There's a place up here called the library bar and they've had. You see, that's a great thing for a college town, right? Hey, mom and dad, I'm going to the library, brilliant marketing there we go, yeah.
Speaker 2:So anyway, they called me up in uh august and said uh, starting in september, we're having uh texas rub barbecue on uh wednesday nights. We want a blues band, can you put?
Speaker 1:one together.
Speaker 2:I'm going like holy crap. So I found, uh, I, I knew a, a good young blues player singer like Albert Collins, stevie Ray and I used a bass player and drummer that I've used forever and we put it together in like two weeks. So we played as a quartet every Wednesday through New Year's and then they said, well, okay, no more. You know when I worked with a great piano player, eddie Russ.
Speaker 1:Oh, I remember Eddie Russ yep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you remember Ed. Ed said whenever you get a gig, first thing you think of is where are you going to go after this gig ends? Right, you've got to be thinking about it right away, so anyway. So we kept the quartet together, but the guitar player said hey, man, I've always wanted to play as a blues player said, I've always wanted to play with the horn section. So I go. You came to the right guy, so that was 15 years ago, it was 2000. Oh, 17. Let's see 2008. Yeah, or whatever.
Speaker 2:My math isn't good, that's all right. Musicians can count to four Exactly, and you know, 5'8 is only three and two. So we did that. And so I've still got this band going now I love it. So we did that, and so I've still got this band going. Now I love it. And I've had a solo guitar gig, solo jazz pop things, for 23 years, nice, at this tea room, and there are three local singers that I'll back, either as just me or with a bass player, bass player and drummer. So anyway, I'm, I'm happier than a clam man.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Do you still have that old ES-175 with the single pickup?
Speaker 2:I don't, but let me tell you. Let me tell you what I've got, though. I got a 1981 Epiphone Howard Roberts, the one we made in Korea, really well made.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:That's my solo guitar workhorse Nice. But then I've got a whole bunch of stuff. I've got to show you one real quick. Yes, this is my brother-in-law is a woodworker. So I said, hey, build me a Telecaster body.
Speaker 1:Oh, look at that. Oh my God yeah.
Speaker 2:So he calls himself the Old Tortoise. So this is the Tortocaster, oh that's beautiful.
Speaker 1:What kind of wood is that?
Speaker 2:Well, let's see, we've got walnut, black, cherry, american ale, which is hard to find, and something like Babinga.
Speaker 1:Babinga, that looks glorious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the other thing is it's solid enough that it sustains forever. So, anyway, that's one of them. Yeah, anyway.
Speaker 1:Let's talk a little bit about when we were, when we were in. When we were in, uh, at school we worked out of that Dennis Sandoli book, guitar lore, which is a great book. I still reference it regularly and uh, and of course he was Pat Martino's guy and and and he was a Coltrane studied theory with this guy and all that kind of stuff. Where did you first run across that theory with this guy and all that kind of stuff? Where did you first run across that?
Speaker 2:that book and get that idea for for working out of that. There was a guy up here, uh, his name was Dennis Gorgas and Dennis was a really fine, uh, straight ahead player and everything and he had studied with Dennis in Philadelphia. He moved here. His wife was an artist but she she was able to work from home and they always wanted to like she was of Finnish descent.
Speaker 1:Which many people are up there right.
Speaker 2:You got that right. So this was like little Finland for them. So, anyway, dennis was up here and he gave lessons and he started teaching me, like Dennis's ideas and everything, and apparently took some lessons from Pat Martino too. So I had the uh, and so I I got Dennis's book and I realized that it was a good reference book. Right, I mean, there's no way you could get through that thing in a lifetime. I mean, and, and very honestly, there's some things in there that are technical curiosities. Okay, right, I mean, but they do teach you how to get around the axe.
Speaker 1:Right, no doubt.
Speaker 2:And I remember when I was talking with you one time, you know we had like lessons and stuff and you said, hey, I want to learn how to play changes, you know, and a lot of people, a lot of teachers, would say, oh, then we got to play, we got to play straight ahead jazz to do that? No, you don't, man, right, I mean just think of, just think of all the great harmony that, uh, steely dan had and weather report, you know, and all guys, and that's what I was more into. So I remember when you said about playing changes, you said, well, let's look at some Wayne Shorter like El Gaucho, I think you played that on your senior recital.
Speaker 2:I think you're right, yeah, yeah and I think you played uh uh, uh, room 335. You know stuff like that, yeah, but with with good, with changes, and I just so appreciated that a young, extremely talented, creative guy said, hey, I want to take it the next step further. I I may not play, you know, straight ahead, jazz or whatever, but I want to know how to play changes.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That all just so impressed me.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you, I mean, you were, uh, you were a great instructor in that regard, you know, and again, it was all about being, you know, not being shot down, because I mean so many times, and of course you know, you realize as you get older that you know, you, you can deflect and just realize that some people are just miserable by nature regardless as far as like wanting to talk down to people and being exclusive and all that other kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:But it was so motivating to realize that, no, it's, it's perfectly fine to have this, you know, these blurred lines of of, of idioms and so on and so forth, that that's what your vision is, you know? Yeah, and you know I got to tell you a funny story. So, speaking of Robert Ford, so he played on one of my records and I had this descending series of chords and it was one of those I love tunes that either you know you can play over the changes or you don't have to play over the chain Right, right, right and um. And so it was this series of chords where you could just be like an E major pentatonic and it's going to do like the BB King thing and it's going to sound fine over every one of those chords, right, yeah, yeah. Or you could let the good times roll and get a little fun with it and mess with it.
Speaker 1:And so I was like Robin, I just want to see what you're going to do over this tune. And he played the shit out of it, of course, right away. It was just like there was no like. Oh, let me figure this out. You know what I mean. But what I realized, what he did, which was so interesting to me, is that out of all those weird inversions I was doing, um, he immediately gravitated towards whatever strong triad there was in any of those chords and play a pentatonic off that triad Right and it sounded hip as hell.
Speaker 1:You know it was. It was, uh, it was really something that um too, is that. Oh, I lost you there for a minute. I'm sorry we got a little drop out there. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, what's going to be interesting for the listener is that you've made it your own. Then you know, because everybody's going to go up and down the pentatonic. And there's nothing wrong with that, I mean, maybe he was a soulful player man, yeah, yeah, but introducing just that other approach which really is sort of like, well, you're digging into the changes, you know, right, right, and that's why you put those changes in there. Right, it's just like saying welcome to my world, right.
Speaker 1:Exactly correct.
Speaker 2:Come in and play. It reminds me of a thing. You know. I was listening to a Herbie Mann record, oh yeah, and he had Reggie Young on there and and larry corio right. So I was listening to saying they're playing like uh, what I say, you know, or whatever, and doing this thing and reggie does his thing and you know, with uh fuzz face or whatever, and larry corio comes in and he plays, you know, just uh, like a pretty burning blues lick. Then the next phrase was like right out of charlie parker, right, but it fit, and I literally fell off my chair I said what was that?
Speaker 2:what was that? And you gotta know, man. I think I wore out the record trying to figure it out oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love those little, uh, those little amalgams of things where people kind of, you know, jump the ship and go. But lately, you know, I've really been into the idea of just randomly responding to what you just played, and it may not be lick-oriented at all, you know what I mean. They're just like musical utterances and because you know we've gotten to the point now, especially with what I mean, they're just like musical utterances and because you know we've gotten to the point now, especially with, I mean, just the amount of information I mean when we think back about when, you know, when we were younger, I mean it's like, you know, you'd read about somebody in guitar player magazine and they would mention and be like man really into this.
Speaker 1:you know like, just as an example, when I got into Albert Lee I didn't know any country guitar players. I knew Albert Lee because he played on this Clapton record and I was like, well, where did he get this stuff from?
Speaker 1:So, I read this article about Albert Lee and he's mentioning Jimmy Bryant and Hank Garland, and you know, of course, chad Atkins, who I'd heard of, but you know Jerry Reed, I'm like the truck driver from you know. But back then it's like, unless you were really, um, you know, a go-getter in terms of like sending away for exotic records or going to conventions, your run of the mill record store is not going to have anything that deep where you could actually source this stuff. So it was, you know, it was really, um, uh, a quest, quest to learn this stuff. Either you saw the person live, you knew somebody that kind of played in that style, like oh, that must be the way that so-and-so plays, because you, you know, and then you'd finally get like one record, or someone would make you a cassette but, nowadays you could.
Speaker 1:You know, I remember a couple years back I got this jango that was a a newer jango reinhard book had all these different things of the stuff that he listened to. You know you're like well, where are you going to hear those records? Well, somebody has uploaded all that stuff to YouTube. There's literally everything you are even passably interested in. You can find and figure out. If there's not someone themselves showing you their stuff, there's somebody else showing it as a breakdown. A lot of times it's wrong, but there's other people that get it right, and so I like to say there's really no reason to suck at this point. Well, exactly.
Speaker 2:There's no reason. There's no reason except motivation, right, and see, you know, you're a very talented cat man. I mean, I remember when you first walked in you played like two or three licks at Shell Lake and I go, this guy's got incredible hands. I mean, I call them athletes George Benson is an athlete on the guitar, jim Hall is not, you know, and things like that and I thought, whoa, this is, this is really cool Anyway, but people don't realize the thousands of hours you put in man, and and there are a lot of people that are still. You know, god bless her. God damn, one of the two, the, the people online that say here's the secret. Goddamn one of the two, the people online that say here's the secret. Do this and in 30 days you'll be the hot shit of the world.
Speaker 2:Right, it ain't going to work, dude. No, and you know it takes that motivation and that's what's lacking. You had it. All the great players have it. And sorry, like you said, it's all there. It's all there. Let me give you an all there. Just quick story. Okay, I got a call about a month ago to play with a choir that's doing a major new choir work. It's called Considering Matthew Shepard, and the guitar book is challenging. So I've got to play acoustic, acoustic, flat pick, bluegrass, finger picking. I've got to play electric, I've got to play some blues. I got to use a looper, go ahead. And I got to play slide. So now I'm, you know, I'm ready to, you know, crap the bed. So what do I do? I go online to Greg Koch and you've got some wonderful quick instruction about slide guitar playing, how to do it, especially the right hand, muting and everything. Boom, I'm an average slide player right now. I am not going to crap the bad man Awesome.
Speaker 1:Thank you, dude. Well, thank you, I love that story. We interrupt this regularly scheduled gristle. Well, thank you, I love that story. We interrupt this regularly scheduled gristle-infested conversation to give a special shout-out to our friends at Fishman Transducers, makers of the Greg Koch Signature Fluence Gristle Tone Pickup Set Can you dig that? And our friends at Wildwood Guitars of Louisville, colorado, bringing the heat in the shadow of the Rocky Mountains. Well, you know, it's. I mean, like I wake up in the morning and after I make coffee, which is absolutely paramount.
Speaker 2:De rigueur.
Speaker 1:I'll just sit down and grab a guitar and start playing. I just like playing. It's like you know. I tell the story about how you know not to name drop or anything but, um, when I visited, uh, I was out in the West coast and Joe Bonamassa invited me over to his place because I'd known him for years and I'd never been to his house to look at all of his guitars, right? So he's like come on over. And he goes well, what do you want to see it? And at that point I'd already seen all of his Les Pauls. I said, let me see the Telecasters, right? So we go out and he has this other building. There's kind of a little hut behind his house. That was whoever owned the house before. That had a recording studio back there.
Speaker 2:But he doesn't use it as such.
Speaker 1:He uses it to store all of his guitars. And he had a 1949 Broadcaster in there right, and so I grabbed the broadcaster and I plugged it in and it had the squishiest, most delightful sounding neck pickup and he started bringing other oh, check this one out. I was like no, I'm good with this one. Once I sat down and I just wanted to play it. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I just like to sit down and play, and I think that's the thing that maybe a lot of people don't understand. It's just, I play all day if I could, and if there's a lull, all my wife's like oh, I got to do something, and we just got done doing a bunch of errands or whatever, and she's got to do something on her computer for work, do some graphic design stuff or whatever, and she's got to do something on her computer for work. You know, do some graphic design stuff, or whatever the case may be, I'll just sit down and I'll grab my phone and I'll put on iTunes and I'll play along with records. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's I. Just it's as fun now as it was when I was, you know, 14, which makes me think maybe I've not matured at all, but I haven't either. I'll tell you that man, as I like to say, beat Jaeger and blow. There we go.
Speaker 2:That is so true. You know there's a funny story about Lenny, bro, lenny, same way he said you know he wasn't playing. I mean, he was off in his own world doing his thing. And you know, lenny, if you ever looked at his right hand he's got like nails, like you know, adam's family, right, you know, and everything. And he played, yeah, right, mostly played with just nail, you know, and anyway. So a funny story. Uh, bottom, uh, lauren Lofsky was telling me about this. She says somebody was walking along the street with Lenny in Toronto. It's winter, icy and everything, and he's walking along. He slips. He's got his guitar, he slips. Does he put his hand out to stop the fall? Nope, it was like this Face plants, face is all messed up and everything. First thing he looks at is, oh, my nails are okay man, let's talk a little bit about your info.
Speaker 1:You mentioned Lenny, bro, so you grew up. You grew up in Leona, wisconsin, and I I did. I always remember that because my parents have had a cottage up North and we all the kids have it now and it's in Krivitz, wisconsin, and so during the summers we would, especially when the kids were younger, we'd go to Camp 5. Yeah, the lumberjack camp there.
Speaker 2:And right on the steam engine.
Speaker 1:That's right. And so you grew up there. So what was your motivation to get into music and who were the first people you were listening to?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all I started. I have one sister. She's 10 years older than I, am a wonderful pianist, but now she's got arthritis, so God bless her, she can't do that anymore. So I started playing piano when I was, let's see, first grade. So I played that from first through sixth and sixth grade. You know, it was baseball, basketball. And I started playing guitar in sixth grade and so I was. My dad and my uncle and my grandfather were amateur musicians, but they were like bluegrass, you know, take it down to the levee, you know, and things like that. And my dad played guitar. He was a good tenor banjo player and he played the chromatic well, they call it mouth organ, oh yeah, harmonica and good player so. And he taught me um to, you know, like one, four or five, except he called it first change, second change, third change so he taught me all.
Speaker 2:He said, well, let's play alabama jubilee. Well, alabama jubilee has a fourth change in there too, anyway. So, uh, you say, okay, here we go. And then, uh, so I play that, and then you, and so we do these things. It was with my dad, so I mean, it was just cool, yeah, cool.
Speaker 2:So at a very young age I was ear trained. I understood basically that there are chord progressions and one, four or five. I didn't know the names of any of this stuff until I went to college, right, and I, once I got there and I realized, oh, I know all the theory, I still know the names. I learned the names and aced it out uh, so, anyway, so I did that and, um, uh, so my dad liked Chet Atkins. At the time on television there was a show that Jimmy Dean did and his guest very often was Roy Clark. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he had an instrumental album out called the Lightning Fingers of Roy Clark. Everybody had to have that because you're like, you know everything. So I, you know, we, we were digging that I would dig, uh, I would dig chat, you know right. Uh, I also was, uh, you know, digging the beatles and obviously um, you know the rock and roll, rock and roll right, songs of the day and everything, and we would do that.
Speaker 2:And so I had this mishmash and I remember my parents had like a lot of 78 records. I remember there was one thing called the Dill Pickle Rag. It was like stride piano In fact. Well, I can't't show you, but I've got the record on my wall here. Awesome, oh, it is first thing, and you know. So I did that. Uh, all right, so long, about 67. Uh, you know, leona is out in the tules, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I went to the library and the librarian had this new magazine called guitar player. Yes, yes, I thought what the hell? So I go in there and, just like you, I can't get enough of it. I'm learning all these names. Who's Joe Pass, right? Who's all this stuff you know and everything, and I just couldn't get enough. So you know that northeastern Wisconsin is homogeneously white, right? If you go out to the bars, you're going to hear country music, you're going to hear Buck Owens and you know all that and everything which is cool. I got into that and everything. But I don't know how I got. I think I found something at school, a James Brown record. Aha, something at school, a James Brown record in like 1968. And I just came apart I said that, is it that just the funk thing, you know? And I just, and so you know, and my friends would go, well, you're listening to N music, right. And I said damn right, I am man, check this out. That's how I learned the E9 chord right.
Speaker 1:So now, where were you going to school at that time?
Speaker 2:I was in high school.
Speaker 1:Oh, you were in high school, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so okay, just a quick thing. So 1967, I got into my first rock band, okay, and I was. I was a nerd but I knew chords and I could take stuff off record so I could teach the whole band. So they had to put up with Mr Nerd and my mother. God bless her heart. She was a public school teacher for many years and she just had this witchy talent of knowing what people need different students I've I saw throughout her career.
Speaker 2:So we're in rhinelander, lincoln music center. There we go, the home of the hodags, and this guy who, uh, owns lincoln music center looks like don wilson of the ventures, you know, the rhythm guitar player, hair and everything. So they said, well, we're going to just drop you off here. We had to go shopping. So they came back in. So I didn't know and I was in there, I was looking at that and I must've been staring at this 67 ivory Telecaster with a maple neck looking at it like this. I didn't know. My mother came in. She walked in, tapped me on the shoulder, says is that the one you want? I was shell shocked. I said yeah, yeah. She said okay. She went over and said take it off here, put it in the black case with the orange on the inside.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, everything. 274, 73 with tax. I know if I'd have kept that guitar. I was looking the other day. It's like, uh, I don't know, four grand now or something, but I'd be more than that 67.
Speaker 2:Yeah, probably It'd be about 10. Well, it was. It was one of the smugglers. Oh, okay, yeah, you know, I didn't know that till later anyway, so okay, I'll shorten the story 67. So during the school year I'm playing in a rock band, poverty's children, yes, and we we had, uh, we had a, we had a Chrysler station wagon, I didn't, but we were using that and everything, and every once in a while, you know, we'd have to tighten the lugs on the wheels and the lug would break off, you know, but anyway, so they called it the Jesus Chrysler. Know, but anyway, so they called it the jesus chrysler.
Speaker 1:Right, so that was that was, that was our bandwagon, uh.
Speaker 2:And so we would play. That's a great name for a band, yeah, I know, right, probably get sued, but that's all right, uh. So anyway, rock band would break up in the summertime, right? So what am I going to do? Well, because I could play chords and I could read chord changes. Some of the older musicians that played the resorts around northern Wisconsin. They said, all right, we'll take this young shit on. And so I played rhythm guitar, you know, and we'd do Don Ho, tiny Bubbles, folsom, prison Blues, all this. But I got to go to all these resorts, man, you know the Eagle Waters Resort and over to St Germain, and you know all these things. So during the year I was rock and roll, during the summer I was playing.
Speaker 1:Whatever you had to play.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and old standards, you know, I remember this one tenor player, tough love, I mean, he dug me, but he would never let me know that, you know. And he'd say what do you mean? You don't know that tune. He says learn those changes, right, you know. For next time, right, you know, or you ain't crap unless you can play Ted Atkins, right? Yeah, you know. And stuff like that.
Speaker 2:So, all right, did that. Then I went to Michigan Tech in tech. Uh, it was a forestry degree. Oh, I didn't know that you were a forestry degree. Yeah, that's see, I'm a science nerd too. So, um, anyway, so I, I did that. Uh, then I, halfway through my junior year, I was ready to skate to music school because I was having too much fun. And but my parents, just, you know, said when I went to them, I'm going like kind of shaking, uh, you know, said uh-uh. When I went to them, I'm going like kind of shaken, I'd really like to go to music school. And they, you know, and so anyway, we worked it out. They said, no, you're going to finish your degree. Then, if you want to go to music school, we can't pay for the whole thing or anything, but we'll help you as much as we can.
Speaker 1:So I said okay.
Speaker 2:So then I went to Northern Michigan, and what was really cool about that? I got through there in two and a half years. All I had to take was music.
Speaker 2:Nothing else I took one Madden Modern World course. I mean seven o'clock. Go to the music building 1030,. Come home at night I mean seven o'clock. Go to the music building 1030,. Come home at night. Practice during the day, day in, day out. Plus I was playing three days a week, three nights a week. So I did that. All right, get out of school there, Get married.
Speaker 2:My wife had a gravy gig down in central Wisconsin, so I talked down in central Wisconsin there and yeah, and so meantime, when I was going down there I started making, I realized, oh, stephen's point, it's two hours from Eau Claire, two hours from Madison, two hours from Green Bay. So I started contacting people around there. And so while I was in central Wisconsin I worked with Love of Lives over at the Carlton Okay, in the Carlton room in Green Bay, did a lot of work there and Lovell liked it because I could read. Plus, oh, here's a guitar player who can read and play and play rock and roll, so we're going to have him. So I did that, played with a lot of people and everything. But geez, I tell, tell you, doing some of those shows, driving back I'd get, I'd get home at like two in the morning, you know, and then you know, got to go to work. Uh, you know, teaching public school kiddies at eight in the morning. Oh, that's a young, young man thing you worked.
Speaker 1:We worked off some time at Purgatory.
Speaker 2:I did, I did man. So over the years I just kept doing things. The solo guitar I would like to say this If I were back teaching at Stevens Point right now, I would make it mandatory for the guitar players to learn, start to learn some solo guitar repertoire. Yeah, whatever, whatever, you know. I mean, if it's a stevie wonder tune, fine. If it's amazing grace, fine, whatever. Because that's the most employable thing out there. And I'll tell you why. Well, you already know this.
Speaker 2:But I discovered, like about 12 years ago, house parties here's the scam with the house party 90 minutes, you go there, 20 minutes, you schmooze the people, fine, play about a 40, 45 minute set that you know in their living room, and these are all rich people, and you know rich people like to have hire, you know, and things like that. And then afterwards you sell your CDs and merchandise, absolutely. Then you pack it up. Okay, that happened to be at four o'clock in the afternoon, so then you go to the next rich person house at seven, right, do the same thing, yeah, and you can do it on nights that you're not working.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:You can do it a Tuesday night, you can do it a Wednesday all these throwaway nights and you can do it and people go oh, isn't this nice. He can play time in a bottle, but in a way different from the record, Right? Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:So, okay, I had kind of a strange epiphany in that regard when it was. You know, when I was doing a lot of clinics, I would always do them with tracks, you know what I mean. I would have stuff from my records where I would take the main guitar part off and and it just was kind of soul sucking. You know we refer to it as guitar-yokey, you know what I mean. And plus, the balance was never right.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. You'd get into a place and it just sounded it just was not satisfying. And then I remember I saw, um, I mean, I was familiar with Tommy Emanuel at that point.
Speaker 1:But that was just like that was like otherworldly, you know, yes, yes. And then I saw Doyle Dykes, who's also otherworldly, but when I saw him playing, he opened up with this, just like a shuffle, you know, yeah. And he played chords, melody, bass, all at the same time, yeah, and then was able to do like an improvised thing while keeping the the comping going. I thought, damn, he's sitting here by himself destroying, and how awesome is that? So then I just made it my mission, uh, to learn how to be a self-accompanying musician. And, to your point, it was uh, you know, ever since then. That's what made all the, you know.
Speaker 1:and now when I do clinics, I don't play with tracks at all, I just I just play, you know yeah, yeah, and if I needed to, I could spend the rest of my life doing solo gigs and plus it's just fun. It's fun to be able to sit by yourself and make music yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And people. He goes and said why don't you use a looper?
Speaker 1:I go, that's soul sucking also you know you hit that thing at the wrong time.
Speaker 2:The balance is weird, oh jesus yeah yeah, and when you're playing solo you can take off in any direction you want, exactly you know. You decide oh, I'm going to do this tune, you know, or or uh, that tune. So to your other question, just quick about. So I heard Joe pass early on and I just went. Are you kidding me? But I think probably the one my entry level was Grant, green and Kenny.
Speaker 1:Burrell.
Speaker 2:I think, because I could do those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they were easier to understand.
Speaker 2:Yeah and Joe, I just didn't have the chops to do, although I can sing practically every solo off for Django you know yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I like that, I liked Lenny, and probably for the last I don't know, maybe 10 years I'm real in. Well, obviously, tommy emmanuel, right, but uh, martin taylor, oh yeah, he's great. Yeah, yeah, because martin has a real accessible way of dealing with melody and baseline and and another voice. He doesn't even call it chord melody, Right, he says and he talks. George Benson said this too. So if you're playing solo, he said you have to have motion. You can't just go chord, chord, chord. There has to be something in there that's giving you so chord ba-ba-do-do, chord, da-da-do-do. Well, you know that, yeah, and so the thing with Martin. It really opened up a lot of stuff for me. So now I'm taking those techniques I learned and it would take me another three lifetimes to get what's in my head to come out here, but I'm having a hoot.
Speaker 1:But that never ends. That's the same for one and all. Yes, yes, the quest it never ends, yeah for sure. So after you got done with Michigan Tech, you were down in central Wisconsin. You were taking some credits at Stevens Point and that's what led to this template, if you will, for a program that led to the Stevens Point.
Speaker 2:Right right, I got done with my master's degree and there were no gigs and I couldn't get back into the public school system. So a music store in Wisconsin Rapids, speltz Music, which is no longer hiring me.
Speaker 1:I still have my Speltz Music folders.
Speaker 2:There you go, dude, you know, and they hired me as educational consultant, which means that the first job you have is cleaning out the warehouse. You know, all the dusty shit. And I found, I don't know. You probably remember this. I found this old 1929 Brubank book. The last page in it is supposed to be inspirational, so it shows this little boy in knickers and this little girl and they're hand in hand. They're walking this path but there's chasms all around and they, you know, don't get off into the forest of bad habits. Yes, and this and that Right next to the Olympic temple you fall off into the swamp of jazz, the swamp of Jazz, the Swamp of Jazz.
Speaker 2:So the first fake book we had I put together at Stephen's Point was the Swamp of Jazz fake book. Oh, it's fantastic, anyway. So I had to do that for two years, but in the meantime I'm taking night courses for my graduate degree. And then, when I got done with the degree, they decided well, let's just try him as an ad hoc faculty member running a jazz band to kind of see if maybe this would work. And so I had the jazz band for one year in 82. And then I officially was appointed in 83 and was there until 91. So that's my life story.
Speaker 1:And so why, when you ended with Stevens Point, you ended up going back to Michigan Tech, right? And so what was, what was that transition like, and what was you? Were head of the jazz program there, or was it a different kind of uh?
Speaker 2:no, it was, uh, it was another. It was like a lateral move. And all my colleagues at steven's point said what the hell are you leaving a program that you've built in a music school to go to basically an engineering school that just had a fine arts program? No, no, music degree. And I said, well, I'm a graduate of there. I know that these kids are super smart. I mean, you know I couldn't get into tech now, you know. I mean, you know, with my SATs and everything and so anyway. And then, if you know about super smart kids, a lot of them sat first chair in band. They were probably in forensics, they were probably in rock and roll bands, like yourself, you know, and things like that Super talented. So I knew that and so I knew that going there I would be working with talented kids. Plus, I wouldn't have to put up with academia.
Speaker 1:Right, because that's a whole other thing.
Speaker 2:I never had a budget at UWSP. I had to go to the student government, stand in a docket with a space and then a line of kids who didn't know me from Adam and say, and who are you? And I'd say you know. Director Jess says we need this much money to go on tour. They say every damn year I had to go to those little shits. And they're just sitting there going like, yeah, yeah, you, old fart. I just, I just had that up to here. So tech said, okay, it's going to be meager, but you've got a budget, you spend it the way you want. I said I got smart kids, I got a budget.
Speaker 2:Don Kiernan had 21 years building this program. I walked in kind of put my stamp on it and everything. For me it was a no-brainer, Absolutely no-brainer, Absolutely no-brainer. And now the guy up here, a young, just a bitchin' trumpet player, Adam Meckler. He plays with Dave Coz. Okay, yeah, Dave Coz, yeah, and he played with the Horned Dogs from Prince. He was on a Stevie Wonder album, Anyway. So Adam's the guy now and we got him here and every once in a while, if he has to be out of town, he says, hey, you want to come in off the bench. Make sure your shoes are tied.
Speaker 1:Well, plus, the UP is just a beautiful place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we got to talk, maybe off camera, but you were talking about maybe coming up this way. I'd love to do it. I got a whole circuit for you and some people to talk to.
Speaker 1:Awesome, good, I'd love it. Yeah, yeah, my son's girlfriend has family up in Munising now.
Speaker 2:Oh, beautiful.
Speaker 1:And and and're buddies with Mark Farner. Oh yeah, Do you ever run into Mark Farner up?
Speaker 2:there, I ran into him once. You know, talk about the wilderness up here. You know the piano player for Little Feet, billy Payne.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Billy.
Speaker 2:Payne yeah, yeah, man, he's got a place up here about eight miles from me. Man, you're kidding me. No, no, I'm buddies with Billy. Billy's up here about eight miles from me, man You're kidding me?
Speaker 1:No, no, my buddy's a Billy and I didn't even know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he comes up here and you know everybody, it's like Billy's my neighbor, you know it's like he's just one of the guys, man, and he's such a nice cat. Yeah, he's a good dude, he is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and every once in a while he'll just step out, show up at a gig and say you know, can I play piano? Yes, you can, yes, you can. Let's talk a little bit about some of the old compatriots. So you mentioned Eddie Russ. I remember playing some of his tunes and they were always cool. Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:And so is he around anymore. Eddie passed away. He was only 61 years old, oh Jesus, he was up for a liver transplant. Ok, do you remember?
Speaker 1:you remember the baseball player.
Speaker 2:Mickey Maddow. Yeah yeah, mickey Maddow had to have a liver transplant. He could get it right F and now.
Speaker 2:Right, of course had to have a liver transplant. He could get it right effing now Right, of course and he had to wait. I had Ed up, you know. Basically he uh uh had to. You know, he had to be on medication and everything played his ass off up here, could barely get off the stage, uh, and then he passed away not too long ago or too long after that. So what I did for sabbatical one year, I found all of Eddie's tunes.
Speaker 1:Right La Serena was one of them.
Speaker 2:Right Yep and I put together a total Ed Rush fake book, and so I've got the C, B-flat, E-flat and bass clef version. If you want it, I'll send you the PDFs.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'd love it. Yeah, because those are great tunes. Yeah, man Speaking of tunes that were cool. That were just cool changes, but not like brain surgery changes some of them. They were just nice tunes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know Ed was for a while. Oscar Peterson had a music school in Toronto and Ed was one of his instructors. So, ed, every gig we played, I played with Eddie for 10 years and that's where my real jazz training came. Got it? It was called the University of Ed Russ Uh-huh, and every night I mean playing on a stage with that guy and these players, way better than myself, just kicked your ass all the time. But to listen to what he did, and every night he would play a solo piece to die for, we would be sitting in the wings all of us. Rick Leppinen, the bass player he's the bass player with Pearl Django now. Oh cool, and we would just sit there going Wow yeah.
Speaker 2:It was just fantastic, so yeah.
Speaker 1:Then there was another one, frank. Mantooth was another one, frank.
Speaker 2:Mantooth, yeah, the tooth, the tooth man, brilliant, brilliant guy. Uh, few people knew that tooth had uh like about 174 iq. Oh no, kidding, oh yeah, but he never let anybody know it and he had perfect pitch and he was just a demon. And uh, yeah, and he, yeah, and he, uh, he liked his uh, herbal combustibles. So I would.
Speaker 2:When I, when I had uh uh, I commissioned him, he would work on his commission in his uh in the morning and he had a new son at that time. Well, he called the rooster. He said I had to work. I had to work in the morning before the rooster's up. I had to work in the morning before the rooster's up. So he'd be sitting there and every once I'd be talking with him and, you know, I'd hear kind of like you know, but an incredible musician, but one of the musicians who actually could intimidate him, and not purposely was Eddie. He just came up, he would listen to Eddie and just shake his head. He said, oh my God, I don't want to follow that guy. Bless him. So yeah, Tooth.
Speaker 1:And then, of course, we got the mighty Steve Zahn, who I saw almost past summer.
Speaker 2:He's looking good, he is, he is, you know and he's doing so much great work for Shell Lake. Shell Lake is they've got a building plan and he's raising money for it and instead of you know having to be, you remember the digs there, man, don't you. Yes, oh man, oh being in those dormitories. No air conditioning.
Speaker 1:Oh, I remember.
Speaker 2:Hotter than hell. Yeah, well, they're going to get a new program. Nice, I think so. Steve's great man, he's my soul brother.
Speaker 1:He's a good man, doggone it. Yeah, crazy. Well, listen, it's been so great catching up. We haven't talked in so long. We conversed a little bit online here and there. But yeah, I'd love to come up there and do a little respite and play up there and scald some brains, yeah.
Speaker 2:Brains need scalding. They do, they do, they do. And you know, the reason people love live music up here is because all the 60s hippies and everything wanted to go north where the air was clear and a lot of those people ended up here and now they got children and grandchildren and they all I mean live music is, you know, it's killing man. That's awesome. They love it. Yeah, okay, I love it, that's my PR?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's all great seeing you. You too, man. That's awesome, I love it. Yeah, okay, that's my PR. Yeah, it's all great seeing you. You too, brother, I hope to see you in the flesh soon, say hello to your lovely wife for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you too, and take care of your son and talented daughter and everything.
Speaker 1:Yes, I shall do it. All right, my friend, have a good one, take care man. Bye-bye, take it easy, bye-bye. Well, thanks for tuning in. Ladies and gentlemen, to another episode of Chewing the Gristle. We certainly do appreciate you stopping by. Make sure you tell your friends all about us. I think they might enjoy themselves. So thanks again for tuning in and we'll see you next time.
