Chewing the Gristle with Greg Koch
Listen in on Greg Koch's conversations with his guitar-hero friends. Every episode Greg unleashes his fiendish humor and unique perspective as "one of the most famous unknown guitar players in the world", asking his often-famous musical friends the questions that we all want to know the answers to! Each episode is brought to you by Fishman and Wildwood Guitars
Chewing the Gristle with Greg Koch
From Luthier’s Bench To Blazing Solos - Seth Lee Jones
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We trace how a wrecked Tele neck and a stack of MI lessons led Seth Lee Jones to a singular slide-and-bender voice, anchored by years at the repair bench. Tulsa’s lineage, reclaimed wood builds, factory reality, and the myth of “expensive equals better” all get a fearless airing. Come and feast!
Opening, Sponsor, Guest Intro
SPEAKER_00Folks, welcome to Chewing the Gristle, the podcast with yours truly, Gregory S. Cock Esquire, also known as Gregory Cockery in some circles. It's brought to you by our friends at Fishman, Fishman Transducers, if you will, and it features just random conversations with various guitar and music friends. Just kind of shooting the breeze or chewing the gristle, if you will. June to my road work, we're gonna stay away from seasons, but we're gonna drop these as they become available. We appreciate you tuning in these years. We're gonna keep on doing this as long as we can, folks. If you're enjoying them, we're enjoying them. Can you dig it? Let's chew the gristle. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we've gathered yet around the gristle fire for another installment of Chewing the Gristle. This week we have the amazing Seth Le Jones from Tulsa, Oklahoma. He is an amazing slide guitar player, telemanipulator, and luthier. And his videos online will scald your brain. This week on Chewing the Gristle, Sethley Jones. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, once again we've gathered around the gristle fire for some convivial guitar talk, music talk, human talk. That's right. And today the special guest, Seth Lee Jones, guitar presta digitator, wizard, if you will, from beautiful Tulsa, Oklahoma, wielding the telecaster with a it's got some devices on it, slide crazy sounds. I dig it all. We've had a chance to jam together a bit and to hang together a little bit down there in Tulsa. I thought it'd be fun to have him join us here on the old Gristle Hour. The Gristle Hour. I don't know if that's what it's called. Seth, how the hell are you? Excellent. It's good to see you. What's happening down there in Tulsa?
SPEAKER_02Oh, not a whole lot. Just fixing Martins and picking on guitars, you know.
SPEAKER_00Now we should discuss this that you are a luthier extraordinaire. Give us a little idea of what kind of stuff you're working on. I mean, I see some of these glorious creations you you make for people. How much of your time is spent building guitars for folks versus repairing guitars, et cetera, et cetera?
SPEAKER_02Oh, majority of what I do is repair. Uh I ought to send Martin and Gibson a Christmas card. I fix a lot of Martins and Gibsons, mainly old ones. Um and that's what I went to school for. I went to Musicians Institute to the Luthier program there about 20 years ago that I did. And uh I worked for uh Caruthers guitars and Asken guitars and uh uh Neil Moser very briefly, and uh I worked for Ron Thorne for a little bit before he was doing the custom shop. And uh I worked for a guy who made classical guitars. I just really dived into it about 20 years ago, and I've been doing it ever since. So uh most of what I do is repair, and most of it is vintage and and high-end stuff. I build probably 18 or 20 instruments a year from scratch. I used to teach the subject down at Tulsa Wood Arts here, and um, but yeah, most of it's repair. Uh I get uh it's kind of a 60-40 split, really, you know.
SPEAKER_00Not to throw anybody under the bus, but you kind of uh you alluded to it that you should send Gibson and and Martin uh a Christmas car. I mean again, not to throw anybody under the bus, but when you have these uh legacy companies, especially at this day and age, and they're pumping out so many guitars, uh do you find that uh a lot of these entities leave it up to people on the local front to really kind of dial them in a little bit more? Because I notice, like, at least you know, like with Reverend, I mean, they can't afford the hubris, right? I mean, that's that stuff's gotta come into you, it's gotta be intonated, playing great, and so on and so forth, because they don't have, you know, 60, 70 years or more than that of uh of legacy to draw from. Uh, do you find that that to be to be the case? Uh I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I kind of feel like it depends on what time of year they're shipping those things. Uh yeah, yeah, true. They're they're really fragile in the sense that they're affected by humidity and heat. Uh, what I find, especially with Martins, is they're they're typically set up for their target demographic, which is bluegrass guys, which prefer a higher action. So when I got into a store, they really need to be moved down to like normal people heights so that people can play in more comfortably. Uh but yeah, I mean, there is an element of acceptable range that things are sent out on. Uh, and I've done consulting for manufacturing companies before, and that's kind of the that's a known uh uh necessary evil. It's high enough where all the notes ring out and they can dial it the rest of the way in when it gets there.
Factory Setups, QC, And Retail Tweaks
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's what I figured. Because I I because when I do those videos for Wildwood, man, I I'll tell you what, I get them right out of the box. And there's some days where I'm thinking, oh my god, this this is uh, you know, this is an$8,000 guitar. It should it should come playing me, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, I mean, I've had one particular instance where we got one out of the case that was a signature model that was going for the artist, and I won't throw the company who did it under the bus, but it was a very expensive guitar, and this thing came out of the case, and one of the frets was smushed into the binding without the tang cut off. So you see the T shape going through the binding, oh holy shit, guys.
SPEAKER_00Uh you sent this to the guy that has his name on the headstock. Right, right. And and you know, again, not you know, we're not throwing these companies under the bus. It's just that when you're making that much stuff, it's like, as you said, there's an acceptable range. And I think that a lot of them have the mentality of let's get it in that acceptable range. And by the time it meets the end user, I know like from Wildwood's point of view, they ask the end user, you know, how do you want it set up? And they've got guys on staff that set those things up, and by the time they get to the person, they're like, Well, this is fabulous. This is unbelievable. But when I get them out of the key, is then I have to wrestle them into submish, it's uh it's a little more difficult, but that's all right. Sweetwater's got a guy on on track, don't they? Don't don't they they've got a setup department, don't they? They do indeed. They got a couple guys that are great. Uh a couple three guys, actually. Awesome. And uh what's kind of funny, one of the guys there is they they refer to him as old Greg, but he's actually younger than me. So every time I'm out there, it's like you're no longer old.
SPEAKER_01Look at that kitty cat!
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00What are you doing? If I don't grab her, she'll be on the keyboard. Yeah, which kind is that without the hair on it? What's what's the name of them?
SPEAKER_02She's a Sphinx cat. Sphinx? Yeah. So me and the wife are real allergic, so I'm not allergic to this mongrel.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's interesting because I'm usually very allergic to cats too, and I heard that bengles are hyperallergenic, and sure enough, we have Bengal cats, and I don't I don't freak out from them, which is good. Stuff you can feed them now, too, that makes them less that's crazy. Go on, you so let's talk about your playing. It's savage, it's glorious, and I'm so glad to see that so many people online are coming around to your your your powerful playing and so on and so forth. So tell us a little bit about how you developed your style and what were your influences. And I know that you, you know, we talked when I was out in Tulsa that you went to MI for Luthery, but there was a lot of those open sessions that you were able to go in on and learn some stuff from some cats. So uh tell us your journey as far as uh musical influences and so on.
Bender Telly Origin And Open D
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, just starting with the MI deal, those those open counseling sessions, they encouraged you to go to the main building uh because our campus was a little separate. And I attended the open counseling with uh uh Scott Henderson and Carl Verheyen. And that was one of those deals where you'd sit in a room with a bunch of guys and you would just listen to them talk, and they had a guitar, but you didn't have one. Uh, but it was still really valuable information that I got to learn, uh, especially from from Carl, because I went to more of his sweep schedule-wise lined up because I I kept a full-time 40-hour job while I was going. Um yeah, the the whole bender telly thing was a complete accident. Uh when I got out of Luthier School, I wanted to build myself a fancy telecaster and uh I did. And I made the neck in Venice Beach where I worked. I worked for Brothers Guitars and I lived in the valley where it's very dramatic. So that neck, uh, I I fucked it up on accident uh because I you know was new at the game. And when I got it home, it was so badly backbowed, even after a couple of heat sets, I couldn't get the thing to sit flat uh for me to play it standard. Uh so I had played lap steel since I was a kid, and I had these giant lap steel strings, and I was like, ah, screw it, I'll just put these lap steel strings on it and play it until I have time to make another Nick. Well, when I did that, I tuned it to Open D and I pushed down on those levers that I had put on it, and it went from a one-chord to a four-chord, and the light bulb turned on. It was like, oh, this is cool. This is like a pedal steel with France. So I never set out to make an open D tuned bender equipped guitar. I had gotten uh there was a Brad Paisley article that came out in 2006 in Guitar Player Magazine, where he was talking about his rig and the McVeigh bender. And I wanted to get one of those McVeigh benders, but I didn't have those kind of pockets back then. Uh so the hip shop bender was like 150 bucks on eBay. I got one of those and then fucked up the neck. Uh so at the same time, I got that Sonny Landrith record, Grant Street. And I was, you know, stuck in the car three hours a day because you know, the valley to Venice is round trip about three hours, at least it was 20 years ago. Um so I had a lot of time to listen to those two records. Um, and it kind of developed out of that as this happy accident, uh uh an unaffordability of something, uh, and then getting these two records that were just you know mind-blowing to me. You know, hearing vendors and hearing all that behind the slide stuff that Sonny does, uh, it just kind of started there and snowballed into what it is today. And uh I think I got really the most practical on-the-job training using the bender. Uh, when I moved back to Tulsa from LA, I uh played for uh about seven years in a country band. And it was like traditional country, you know, like pre-1965, uh a lot of non-tetal steel, and uh and I from there got into uh like Lloyd Green and uh uh you know things like that. Yeah, that's kind of where it started. I I fucked something up.
SPEAKER_00That's always the mother of invention.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, talk a little bit about the Tulsa music scene because I mean, of course, we know about you know JJ Cale and Leon Russell and and um of course the the uh Clapton's background uh uh of Carl Radel and those cats. Um but you know there's you know Tommy Crook, you know, great guitar player, yeah, mind-boggling, but there's just a very high level. Uh Speedy West, I think he was from Tulsa, right? Um there's just really a strong musical lineage down there. Talk talk a little bit about that and how that affected you growing up.
Tulsa’s Musical Lineage
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and Eldon Chamblin, Speedy West, uh Barney Kessel, uh, you know, talk about uh guys like Carl Radel were from here and uh uh you know around Tulsa, and you know, um Jesse F. Davis was from Oklahoma. There's just always been quite a bit, yeah. There's been quite a bit of uh music here, just uh kind of we're on the halfway point. If you're going to Chicago to Texas or from Texas to Nashville, we were kind of like a stopping point along Route 66. Uh so inadvertently we became a hub. There was actually a fender distribution hub here. So uh it was still is not uncommon to find uh uh fender instruments that have you know stayed in people's garages or attics or closets that are you know, some odd duck of distribution days when they were here in Tulsa. Yeah. So there's just always kind of been a halfway point. If you were back in those days, people didn't just jump on airplanes, you know, a lot of people just drove, you know.
SPEAKER_00When you were in high school there, would you say that there were um, I suppose you wouldn't know what to compare it to, but did there seem like there was a lot of musicians of of a particular aptitude, or was it you know not any more than anybody else, kind of our age-ish?
SPEAKER_02Well, I don't know. I I kind of have a blank spot there because I didn't go to high school here. I moved away in 2000, moved to to Los Angeles. I was there for 11 years.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02But I did take lessons here in in the early nine uh early and mid-90s, and and there's always been you know professional grade musicians. And in fact, I uh when I moved back, I I met this fella named Tori Ruffin, who's played for Morris Day in the Time for ages. And uh his reasoning for living here was because it was never more than a three-hour flight from anywhere he had to be for the band, you know. So it kind of works out the the living's cheap and you're not far away from anything, and uh you know it's a decent place to be for that.
SPEAKER_00I can relate to that. That's why I stayed in Milwaukee. Same, same rationale. So talk about what you're doing these days. I mean, obviously, you're posting a lot of stuff online, but there's some great footage of you and the band playing at the the VFW post and elsewhere, and uh you just seem to have a nice little groove going with all your various different exploits. What's kind of what's next for you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um this week I'm I'm flying out to LA. We're gonna do uh I've got an interview with Dweezel Zappa on his uh podcast, and I'm gonna do some videos for Ernie Ball screens. I got my hat off.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh Tone King Amps, of course. Uh then uh we're gonna take a walk through the NAM uh show, probably on uh the setup day for uh you know, just doing some glad handing with you know vendors and exhibitors and uh then uh come back to town and uh get to be uh in the vicinity of you. That's correct. We're gonna try to do that.
SPEAKER_00That's gonna be fun. I'm looking forward.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the big room downstairs at the VFW. So that'll be great. I like that room. Excellent. Well, that would be fun.
SPEAKER_00We had fun last time I was in town when you sat in. That was a blast.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. That'll be it right. We'll do it again. Uh maybe you can get in on some of the action with my guys.
SPEAKER_00I like it. I'm all for it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that's that's all I got going. What kind of stuff you've been listening to these days?
SPEAKER_02Man, I cannot get away from Kings X Records. I've been listening to that stuff since the early 90s, since I was a little kid, and I fucking love King's X, man.
SPEAKER_01Excellent.
Current Projects And Touring Plans
SPEAKER_02I still go back to that, and it's kind of a weird thing to hear from a guy who plays mostly country and blues. Like Doug Pennick is like my favorite singer ever. Nice. And and man, if you listen hard enough, you can hear some of that Ty Tabor stuff in there, uh, particularly with vibrato in the middle strings. Like, I just love the sound and like the the chorus sound that he would use that uh he had those old like elite strats that I don't even know what he was using. He was using those Yamaha amps for a long time, but uh yeah, I'm just stuck on that sound. And I always go back to that Grant Street record. But yeah, I I kind of do this thing where I'll I'll get to you know uh Ear Candy or or uh uh Mr. Bulbous, and then I'll just start over and I'll go back to Out of Silent Planet. Uh yeah, I've been going back through that stuff again.
SPEAKER_00Uh so I I I what I find interesting is that I I'm kind of the same way too. I like to I listen to a lot of the same stuff over and over and over again just because I love it. I'll I'll get on a uh on a kick and and just you know listen, I'll hyper focus on a person and that might be somebody from the past and just listen to that as opposed to like I'm not really in. I mean, if I see something new online, I'll be into it and and so on and so forth. But I'm I it it's it's just so weird how we tend to you know focus on the stuff that got us to where we are and continue to get inspiration from that. So yeah, so but I I mean other people are just constantly buying new music and and tr and listening to new things and so on and so forth. And uh it can be a little overwhelming.
SPEAKER_02Oh man, there's a there's a band, I believe they're out of Scotland. This these guys called High Fade. You seen that? No, oh my god, High Fade. High Fade. I gotta check it out. Oh, dude, it's like a Scottish funk band, and that guitar player, like there's like some video I saw where where he just on dead clean, like hardly any verb at all, just rips this guitar solo with all of these like arpeggiated stuff, and just I mean, just tore my head off. But the whole band is really, really good, and and it's a trio. Uh and man, what a what a funky nightmare. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00Do they just sometimes do some stuff outside where they're playing outside?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's some some outdoor videos I've seen, but uh I think they just did a uh a Europe run, and but yeah, high fade. Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01Shag it out, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Just like high BPM, like blow your socks right off.
Influences From King’s X To High Fade
SPEAKER_00Sh it out. Shag it out, yeah, man. So talk about some of the other influences and stuff you've you've liked to listen to in the past when you were growing up. Were you uh, I mean you you uh you mentioned um King's X. What other stuff did you like to listen to?
SPEAKER_02Man, they started me on piano when I was a little kid and um they made me learn all the dead white composers. And I I feel like that's good for you. Um I later did take classical guitar, but uh I really wanted to to learn Ray Charles tunes. And my piano teacher, God rest her, she was like in her 90s or something. She didn't know any Ray Charles tunes. So, but you know, we got the boogie woogie book out and went through that. But yeah, I've always been a huge Ray Charles fan, and I later uh learned how to do some of his music in Open D as well as standard. Uh and transcribing that stuff, uh, I had to get a bit of help to do that. It's a fair amount of work trying to get the right chords, the chords that Ray played in that tuning. Uh they're gettable. You just kind of have to make some adjustments to get there. But yeah, Ray Charles all the way, man. Like, I've got that birth of soul record that is in the constant rotation. Yeah, yeah. And the country covers one, oh my god, that one was huge. Um, and little Jimmy Dickens, oddly enough, like he had some really killer guitar players throughout there. There's one that I cover called Bird of Paradise, and I've never been able to get the actual sound on the record, but on the record, there's this echoplex sound that's just like tumbling down this echoplex sound. May the bird of paradise fly up your nose. And uh I love that guy's music. It's it's always fun to play to uh with that bender too, because you you get a lot of like major diatonic and like you know, stacking uh little uh chord stabs of you know thirds and and fifths that are really fun and and that's easy to get to, and it's it's a joy to play. Um that stuff is is um it's it's like a prerequisite, I feel like, for playing uh a non-pedal uh slide. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Now, have you ever had a chance to hang out with Sonny at all or meet him?
SPEAKER_02Man, I got to open for him in Eureka Springs a couple years ago. And uh uh he was such a sweet man. Uh uh really, really impressive to watch him do that stuff and not even break a sweat. I sweat like a Baptist preacher when I play. And that man played notes I didn't know existed and never, never a uh a drop of sweat. I couldn't believe it. And it was really uh a bit unnerving because he was like staged right uh through my whole set. It's kind of like reciting scripture in front of the Pope or something, you know. Really kind of made me nervous. I had to ignore him, you know. But uh, but yeah, he was a really sweet guy, uh uh fantastic performance, too. It was really interesting, and I I had like all this grandeur ideal, like, oh man, I'm gonna get to see that that Stratocaster he plays with, you know, the he's got the trilogy bridge on his, and he showed it to me. And uh like I'm a luthier, I build fine things, man. Like I saw that and was like, wow, what a piece of shit. He makes it sound so good. And and you could say the same thing about my guitar. My guitar has probably needed frets for the last eight years, and I just I just turned the game knob up and I can't hear it. Uh but yeah, it was amazing to see his action was was fairly high compared to mine.
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Ray Charles, Country Cuts, And Slide Harmony
SPEAKER_02Uh and the trilogy bridge was was was not very beautifully installed. Uh and it was like a nineties standard rat that had at one point been Roland equipped and they just yanked all the Roland stuff and left the holes and it was like, yeah, this is fine. Okay. But I mean, the truth is it's in the hands, and that's I've always believed that. And that dude could play a bucket with you know rubber bands on it and still sound like Sunny Landers, you know. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00It's a funny thing. I mean, you know, a lot of what we have to do as musicians, as guitar players these days, is predicated on getting people to buy gear, you know. Um, but as we know, it's all you don't need if for the actual creation of music, you don't need to have you know um these extraordinarily expensive items in order to get the sounds. And a lot of the people that you know, as you just referenced, you know, a guy like Sonny Lance. Of course, his amps are not cheap. The ones he likes to use are not, you know, whether he's used a pair of uh of rented deluxes.
SPEAKER_02Oh, there you go. And it still sounded good. Yeah, yeah. I had brought my my vintage uh uh super and a tone king, and I was like, hey, if you want to use these, you can because I knew where those amps had come from. And I was like, I don't know what shape those are gonna be in. He's like, I'm good, and he still sounded awesome. It was freakish. Yeah, well, there you there you go.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it's uh it's it's uh didn't he have a double? He's got a dumbbell, and then he was using some kind of other little thing uh that was dumble-esque.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I saw him at the Guthrie Green one time, and he brought this little fly head that was a dumbbell base, and he just rented a pair of of twin reverbs and disconnected the whips and plugged that thing into it. Yeah, it was awesome. Yeah, crazy.
SPEAKER_00Bless him. Yeah, I first saw him well, I heard about him when he played with John Hyatt back in the day. Yeah, yeah, that's the stuff. And then there was a really cool Austin City limits with him playing, and then I got I haven't seen that. Yeah, with him playing with John Hyatt. Oh, okay. Well, I'll still I haven't seen that either. Absolutely. You know, he played the Firebird a lot um in a in a strat, as I recall. Uh, but yeah, that was spellbinding. Because, you know, in that in that stretch of time there in the late 80s, early 90s, you know, you had that uh great John Hyatt record um Bring the Family with Ry Cooter and Keltner and Nick Lowe. And of course that became Little Village, and they put that record out, and that was awesome. Jim Keltner? Oh, with Jim Keltner, yeah. And then he was an Oklahoma guy, wasn't he? Uh I think he was, as a matter of fact. And there was the other guy, uh uh Karstein. That was a yeah. OP's Wonderful Warriors. But then, of course, the John Hyatt record came out. Um, was it is it Bring the Family or no head um the one where it's just the the profile of his head. That was the first record he did with with Sonny, and that thing was just infested with delicious.
SPEAKER_02Sonny is on a Tulsa sampler from I think the late 70s or early 80s that was recorded at church studio. Yeah, and there's like two or three songs that Sonny did on that Tulsa Sampler vinyl, and every now and then somebody will post it around here, they'll find one at like a flea market or something. It's real good, I've heard it. He does like uh like blues attack or something like that, or uh Trouble at Home, I don't remember, but it was all really good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he's a bad man and continues to be a bad one.
SPEAKER_02A bad man! Yeah, I don't understand the two compressors. That was something I saw that he did, and I I guess Lowell George did that too.
Meeting Sonny Landreth And Gear Reality
SPEAKER_00I've never tried it. Yeah, uh when I met Paul Barrera, and you know, of course, having him having played with Lowell and he had to kind of take over for Lowell's parts after Lowell went, they were big compressor guys. Um and they uh they'd have like as you said two of them, and I don't know what they were doing. Although Paul just ended up using one of those boss compressor sustainer pedals. I think he may have had two of them. Um but uh yeah, it's that real squished sound, but it it it does a thing without without mess with that this year for science. Yes, yeah, and I guess Lowell used to bring a rack, a rack compressor of some sort on the road with his dumbbell. And um of course Joe Bonamasa has that dumbbell now that he had. It's really cool. It's got the cigarette burns on it and whatnot.
SPEAKER_02And it's yeah, I didn't see it. I I actually got to uh chat with Joe backstage. He was through Tulsa and he does a lot of business with a friend of mine that owns Guitar House at Tulsa. Yeah, and he invited me along to to go hang out. I got to see some of those dumbles. He didn't have that one with him when he came through, but he he had like three of them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, I mean, I get it. You got the money, you're in a position where you're playing all the time, let the let the good times roll. I I you know, and I suppose if we were all in that situation, you'd be like, Yeah, I'll I'll take a dumbbell.
SPEAKER_02But to me, it's just I mean, as a person who works on these things, man, like most of the time when I see guitars that are you know six-figure guitars or you know, above 10k, they're normally owned by people who don't play very much or can hardly play, and they've got deep pockets and they like nice things. That's normally who owns that stuff, and it normally lives in a case or somewhere where it can be a conversation piece. So I really appreciate the fact that he gets that stuff out and uses it. Yeah, absolutely. No doubt about it. It's what it was made for.
SPEAKER_00That's a fact, yeah. You know, it's and the thing is about any of that gear, which I I I know you know, it's like um not all of them were great, but when you play one that's really great, and it's almost better not knowing, you know what I mean? Because you're like, hey, I play my what I play, and it's cool and all, and then you'll play something that's magical, that is old, and you're like, oh my god, and it's just like unobtainum, you know, as you said, like an old Les Paul. It's like no one who's not independently wealthy is gonna have one, yeah. Unless unless, well, it's you know, you could take you know a mortgage out, the mortgage type payment and just pay it off, but yeah, the vast majority of people who can really play aren't gonna be gigging with an old Les Paul. Yep. Yep. But when you play that and you realize, oh yeah, there's something. It's almost better better not knowing. Yeah. So have you if when you've played these old things, have you has that influenced the way that you make guitars and thinking, now that I've played X, Y, and Z, I you know, I've I've played the really good ones, I've played the not so good ones, and then you will try to apply that, of course, to what you're doing now. And and how close do you get, in your opinion?
Dumbles, Holy Grails, And Practical Gear
SPEAKER_02Well, you can get really close. You can get offensively close if you if you have the time. Um, I have taken spec measurements of every cool one that I've ever seen. Um, I have a big stack of of detailed spec measurements down to like how much gauze each uh magnet has, you know, like a goss reading. I've got a buddy of mine that builds slot car motors, and and he loans me this this meter, and we take really, really accurate measurements of of uh the magnets, their direction, and and uh how much uh of a charge they have, and then you know, of course the coil readings, and uh I'll go through and spec out the pots and see where the cap's sitting. Um but yeah, I I have documented every good one I've ever handled and and meticulously kept records of that. And I I do get pretty dang close. Uh, there's some things I don't want to repeat. Um, in most cases, particularly with old fingers, which is is the style of build that I do. Uh most of the old ones, the neck and body, don't fit very well. There's a lot of just discrepancy in that fitment. Uh, and in most cases, the heels are undersized. So there's things you don't want to reproduce, but you know, grade and orientation, weight, um, you know, the output of your coils, uh, how much uh magnet pull you've got, and then, you know, as much and as close as you can get to the material, uh, which depending on what you're asking about, is can be difficult. You know, there's there's things that you really can't get anymore, and there's things that you have to get from other places. Uh I'll do reclaimed wood. Um uh I've done restoration pretty much all my life. I I was doing a bit of furniture restoration with my parents when I was a kid, so I know what to look at when I'm looking at old furniture. So I've actually found old furniture that was made of Brazilian rosewood or good old maple and cut that up and used it to build instruments. Uh so it's out there, you just gotta look for it. And every time they're knocking down an old house in my neighborhood, because my neighborhood's real old, all these houses were built in the teens. Every time they knock one down, I'm over there digging through the rubble pile trying to find something, you know. I don't let anything go to waste. But but yeah, there's there's an element of it you can get really close, and and I don't make my own pickups anymore, but there's some guys out there that that are doing really, really fine work. Um, I like the the whiz pickups. Um, he makes a really great PAF. And then uh Sayoko Kuabarro has been making some coils for me. For um uh I had her do a rewind on some vintage sets, and she did such a great job, but I had her make some for this uh this telly that I just produced uh out of an old steel. So speaking of reclaimed, I had uh a buddy of mine bring me a triple neck steel from 1954, Fender. And on the back of it, it said tear it up, Garrett. And it belonged to Bobby Garrett. So Bobby Garrett played for Ernest Tubbs, Hank Thompson, Ray Price, George Jones. I mean, he played for a lot of the greats from about you know 58 to 63 or so. And he had a lot of steals, so I did check around to make sure I wasn't cutting up something that somebody really wanted. Uh, but I took that triple neck steel and spent a couple of days resawing it up and making a black guard telecaster body out of it, and I saved 90% of that finish. And I kept on the back where it says tear it up, Garrett, I kept that. Uh the Seoku Kurobar uh did the coils for that, and uh my buddy Mark Grant up in in uh Northern California stamped me a really beautiful uh repop plate for it. And I went through a lot of trouble to make that thing cool. And I've got pictures of that on the Instagram, and yeah, it was like three days of work just to get to the body blank stage because I had to be so careful. And when I was done, there was like a fist-sized piece of wood left over. It was white knuckles because you get one shot, you know. I only had one of them. Uh but that's probably the coolest reclaim job I've done ever, you know. Uh that's in my my personal arsenal. I was like, I'm keeping this, this one ain't for sale.
SPEAKER_00Well, how crazy do you go on on relicing guitars that you make? I mean, it depends on what they want.
SPEAKER_02Because these are all made to order. I make so few of them that I don't ever have any extra sock laying around. So if they want it to look like it sank with the Titanic, I'll do it.
SPEAKER_00Um there's a whole lot of things. Did you ever do something where they'll bring you an old guitar and say, make me another one of these?
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yes, I have had that happen. And you know, for good reason too. It's like they don't want to take the one on the road that's worth a bunch of money, so we'll make them, you know, something that's close as we can get, you know. And I totally get that. Uh I've got some stuff I would prefer not to drag around if I was gonna stick it under an airplane. Uh, because I I don't have the the uh the pockets to buy it a seat like Joe does. Exactly correct. But nor do I have anything that's worth that much to merit that kind of behavior.
Chasing Vintage Specs And Reclaimed Builds
SPEAKER_00Maybe I'll bring my 53 telly down. This this when I come down to Tulsa and you can spec it out, and maybe we'll I'd be lighted, man. That'd be that'd be a cool thing. That'd be uh that'd be good, Cliff. I love it. I mean, the only thing that's weird about it is is the the neck pickup is a little wimpy, but God, it sounds good. Yeah. And and I it it's one of these weird things where it's a spray over. There's like a little, you know, it's been refredded and but I love it. I've you know, it's if it was if it was totally straight, I couldn't afford it. You know what I mean? Yeah, I could barely afford it as it was, but I got rid of a lot of stuff to get it about you know 13 years ago or so, and uh, but now I wouldn't be able to afford it, you know. I know they're insane now.
SPEAKER_02Uh man, and being a 53, what's the weight like on it? It's really light. Really? Yeah. Because some of those early ones are are kind of boat anchors.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they can be, but this one, this one's pretty light.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and uh Drew had a broadcaster, he may still have it. He had a broadcaster I saw in the vault that was like, I mean, I guess as a broadcaster, that'd be a 50, right? Uh uh yeah, or 49, yeah. Oh god, and it was it was like Les Paul territory, how heavy it was. And the neck was so weird. It was just massive, like a U-shape, just really split in half.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for the trip. That's so crazy.
SPEAKER_02And I like a big neck. I mean, the one on mine's big. It's I think I'm 990 at the first fret or something like that, almost an inch. But this thing like a big neck, too.
SPEAKER_00It's it's changed over the years a little bit. Um, I just kind of like whatever neck now. Um, so it's but I think the largest neck I've ever played on a telly was you ever played Bill Kirchin's telly? Yeah. If you ever get a chance, Bill Kirchin comes through town. Let's check out that guitar. I think it's someone in New York who makes it out of reclaimed wood.
SPEAKER_02Oh, right. I read about that. It's uh it's got like a Douglas fir neck on it or something, right? I'll tell you what, that neck is massive. Wow. It is I think they have to be to maintain their rigidity because they're making it out of some conifer species, it's some old pine. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But it's cool. You know, I find that it, you know, I I always preferred bigger necks. And then as I got older, um, you know, I've never had any hand problems uh in terms of carpal tunnel or any of that kind of stuff. Uh, but I find that when I play a bigger neck now, because the necks on my reverends are not are not huge. And and even on my, you know, the 55 uh Wildwood 10 telly that I have, the neck's a little bigger, but it's not massive. But if I play a real bigger neck, I I I will get a little discomfort when I'm you know stammering around the neck. So I I've kind of just come to the conclusion that maybe at this point stick to the smaller profile. Why cause pain? Have you been good with hands? Do you have any problem with uh any of this kind of thing?
SPEAKER_02I can't hold a pick anymore. Uh I've ruined this knuckle from all the fretwork, and uh I can't hang on to a pick anymore, so I use a thumb pick. Oh, there you go. So, what I did to get around it though is I cut that thumb pick so short it just barely sticks out past my thumb. Got it. And I I hold it like I did my Jazz 3s. Uh and it kind of ended up being a double-edged sword in a good way, because if you look at the way my bender works, it's shaped like the cup of your hand. And when you're rolling in with your palm to push down the F sharp and the and the A lever, um, it would be almost impossible to pick that that uh cord, uh that uh triad with with a normal pick. Because I've got my thumb free of the action of pushing those down, I can still hit those and walk. Uh without doing that, I I don't think I would be able to achieve near the speed that I can get with it. Uh so it's actually worked out in my favor.
SPEAKER_00I have noticed that I I have a uh one of my um bristlemasters is outfitted with I can't remember the spacing it, but the French guy that makes the dual lever bridges. There you go. Yeah, and and I've got uh those on on that, but that's the same thing. I can't use it when I if I pulled a pick. I gotta be finger picking. So I can see where having a thumb pick would alleviate that problem. Totally. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Plus, I think, you know, I I always I always like to say that if I could, if I was starting over from scratch, you know, I'd start with a thumb pick because I mean, just you know, the amount of, you know, when you take your first finger out of commission because it's holding the pick, you've kind of lost your best ally. Sure. Sure. And did Chet use a thumb pick? Chet did, yeah. Chet and Jerry Reed and and uh Merle Travis and all those cats. And so and you know Lenny Bro. And Lenny Bro as well, yeah. Really? Okay, that makes sense. All those frightening sons of bitches, they all used a a thumb pick.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Lenny Brough documentary is terrifying. Watching his harp stuff. Oh my god. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.
Relics, Road Copies, And Player Needs
Necks, Ergonomics, And Playability
SPEAKER_00I've never been able to do that effectively. I I could do it a bit, but not just crazy like and Tommy Emmanuel, of course, has taken that stuff and and it has uh grabbing. Yeah. I'll never forget the first first time I saw Tommy Emanuel play. We were on this uh Fender Bill uh at a NAM show in probably 1996 or something like that, somewhere in there, seven. And um, we're playing uh no, Tommy Emanuel plays first because he's the acoustic act. Then we play, then the Hellicasters play, then um I think it was Steve Warner or something like that, and Nokie Edwards and so on and so forth. But here I am, you know, I'm I'm nervous as hell because it's kind of like we're debuting. You know what I mean? No one's really heard of us. And Tommy Manuel's out there, and I'm watching this closed circuit TV. It was at the Wild Horse Saloon in Nashville. I'm watching this closed circuit TV and I'm looking at this guy, and he's doing one of these cascading harmonic things. And then off to my left, I look, and Jerry Donning is to my left, and and John Jorgensen's to my right, and I'm just like, oh my, you know, it's just one of those things you're like, I would think I'm gonna poop my pants. I think I pooped a little, Seth. I think I pooped. But then, you know, you just got to do your thing. And that's uh, and that's really what it comes down to. It's like, you know, because everyone likes to uh not everyone, but uh online, you know, they always like to think that guitar playing is some kind of competition. And there's literally, it's like no one can outdo you. You just have to, and I can't, you know, no one can outdo someone else. So you just be yourself and make the music that you want to make, and it doesn't really matter uh in one way, shape, or form. But that's that's difficult for people to um to digest sometimes who want to make it into an athletic competition of some sort. Yeah, exactly. We're over here throwing discots like exactly. It's not the it's not the Olympics of guitar. That's one of the weird things and I've talked about this a million times on this podcast. People are like, oh, here it goes again. Here it goes again, talking about the internet. But you know, the internet is like the best and the worst thing that's happened to guitar playing and music in general, and and life in general, let's just be honest. But to me, it's it's the golden era golden era of playing guitar because you all those different things that I mean, I know you know what I'm talking about when you were a kid. You're like, man, you hear about these different names of people, like so and so, you know, you read someone in Guitar Player Magazine and they'll mention, or if you're in an open session with Carl Verhein, he starts rattling off names, and you're like, where am I gonna find these records? You know, you had you had to do homework, and now you I just someone asks the question, I go, consult the Oracle. All you gotta do is grab your phone and go, and there it is. Everything you ever wanted to know about this person, probably videos of they themselves showing how to play this shit in the whole nine yards. So that part is awesome. And then, of course, the other part of it is that we have the ability to reach your own fan base without having the of course, you still gotta weed through the algorithm and all that kind of sweet shit. But at the same token, you know, you can find ways to directively, directively, sorry, directly communicate with your fan base without having to go through some kind of gatekeeper, and that's awesome. Uh, you know, but in the other token, it's like there's a lot of bullshit that's being thrown out there. And I think also it's it it um it kind of numbs people to the glory of it. You know what I mean? I mean, there's nothing like being in the room where it's happening, and if you're seeing it online, it's glorious and it's a cool thing, but it's not the same. And I don't know. What are your thoughts on all this internet skullduggery?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like you wouldn't believe how much like comment section mediation I have to do about the stupidest shit. Oh my God. My favorite one, uh, I was actually on vacation in Ireland. It was really funny. Is first thing in the morning, I read this whole like back and forth between these two guys that were complaining. About the way I had trimmed my beard for a video. What the why does that even matter, guys? Like, oh no. I'm just like, out you go. And you know, like the the main thing with with it is like don't take the bait. Like, I get a lot of of hate for how dirty my guitar is. And I'm a very damn the man kind of way of thinking. And I'm just like, well, now I'm definitely not gonna clean it. Go polish your Silver Sky PRS. I mean, right. Like, but yeah, I have to delete a lot of comments of people who are just either rude or inappropriate, or you get like a life story at some point in the comment section that has nothing to do with whatever the video was about. It's like dang, man. Uh, but it's just what it is. Uh, the upside of it is that I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Uh, I don't get a whole lot of gigs here. In town, it's difficult for me to fill uh a room, even even a small bar, because I don't play country music or red dirt. That's just not what I do. Uh so to reach people, most of the records that I have sold, uh, and it's not been a crazy amount, but what I have sold, most of it doesn't get sold here in Tulsa. Uh, people that show up to my gigs in Tulsa are generally people I know. You know what I mean? Instead of being able to reach the entire planet uh with this device that's in my phone. Like I'm gonna uh I'm going to Spain in May to do a little run around there. Uh and on my way back, I'm gonna be on that pedal show. That all happened because of the internet stick in my pocket. Exactly. You know, it didn't happen because either of those guys saw me at a bar in Tulsa, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Right, right, right.
Thumb Picks, Benders, And Technique
SPEAKER_02This doesn't happen. So yeah, a lot of the the really cool opportunities that I've gotten have been because I have maintained a social media presence. Uh uh Ella, I got to play with uh Derek Trucks last year. That was um had everything to do with having a social media presence. Uh they wouldn't have known to call me had I not maintained this since it came out, you know. Uh and it's been uh for two purposes. If you can uh imagine that you know a guy that that uh uh does what I do would want to go out and do product testing and and try to get work that way. So that's what I see it as. And I go out and play guitar, they're like, well, hey, he plays pretty good, he might know how to fix one. Well, it turns out I do. So that's kind of how I it's a 50-50 split online for my uh what I post is uh it's gonna be building and repair and then playing. Uh and people have really responded to that well over the years. That's how I pay my electric bill.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and it's a glorious thing without question. Yeah, and you answered a great question there, too, is uh how do you deal with the the the comment section? I I've gotten to the point where you know I don't respond to negative shit at all. And um uh and you and you can't you can't take the bait. And and I'm convinced, I don't know if if if you've come to the same, because I I'm sure sometimes you get a comment, you're like, this can't be real, right? And then and then you click on it, and sure enough, it's like someone with like one subscriber and as it hasn't posted anything. And you're like, is this just bots that that they want to instigate in or I mean, not that there are genuine people that just don't like what you do. I mean, there's those people too, right? But usually um, you know, a lot of the times it just seems to be rage bait. People just either are desperate for attention to get some kind of interaction, or it just seems to be random things that just pop up that are meant to engage. And uh luckily, I I mean, I I do not engage, as you just said. It's it's the best thing not to do to just even take the bait at all.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's like, man, I got fret jobs to do, neck sets to pull, and I got stuff to do, man. I'm gonna be getting involved in that. I mean, it's just you could eat an entire lifetime looking at that stuff. And it's like, I get in and get out, man. I'm like, I'm here to here you go, see you later. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. There's a handful of people I I go after to look at their content because I enjoy it. I like your your content is is always upbeat and enjoyable and informative. And uh it's really I'm uh very purposeful with the time I spend online anymore because man, it can eat your day.
SPEAKER_00There's always no doubt about it. Yeah, and and I like your attitude and and and and the same thing I do. It's like I turn the camera on, I'll play something, we're done. And then I load it up and get on with my day. And um, you know, it I mean, there are people that curate that stuff to the max, and they're really scientific about um you know, getting the most out of each uh post that they do, and when they post it, and how they post it, and and yeah, I've been following your son's been kind of explaining uh the ins and outs of that. Yes, yes, and it's been and he's been doing a really good job. It's been very effective, especially for promoting the gigs and uh for increasing the mailing list and all that kind of stuff. So that's been fantastic. That's more of like streamlining, you know, how to get uh how to use the internet to get people to support your music. You know, I guess what I was talking about before is like people who are really their whole gig is monetizing their posts. You know what I mean? And and I get it, and it's awesome because you can live anywhere and do it. And some of these people have made a fuck ton of money doing it.
Social Media: Blessing And Burden
SPEAKER_02I know. That's all people that have the same kind of cat as me, and they're just they're smoking me like financially, just making just exploiting this poor cat. The adventures of cat. I know, right? They got merch for the cat, and you know, I guess it pays for all the cat's vet bills, so it's just at least you're yeah, yeah. There's that. How long is this at? This freeloader, she's uh three or four or something like that. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the second one I've had. Uh they're they're really a great animal. They're they're they're closer to dogs, the behavior of them. They're they're really funny. Uh it's not like a normal cat. Uh, and you do have to wash them. The the most common question I get is do I have to shave her? And I think that's a really silly question to ask because have you ever imagined trying to shave a cat?
SPEAKER_00Oh no, that would be uh how about uh wet food? Are they are they eating wet food? Do you have to wake up in the middle of the morning and feed these beasts?
SPEAKER_02I I give them uh it's a it's a 50-50 uh uh deal again. Uh it's uh I give her a little wet and a little dry. And uh that kind of makes it easier on me because that the last one I only did wet. That stuff's gross. So gross. Uh I got the stuff now. I add water to, it's it's less smelly, it's it's a much better deal.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, our cats are doing a thing now where they're getting more persnickety about the food. They've always been persnickety about food, but then we found this one brand that they'll eat, and we get these different types of the same brand. And now they'll just and then they wake us up at 4 a.m. to get fed. Yeah. And so my wife and I take turns, you know, oh, it's your cat day tomorrow. Fuck. And uh, and I'll get up and I'll go down. And the boy cat's always mewing. He's always like, mew, mew. Where the girl cat, she'll just like sit on the on my wife's dresser and just like throw shit off. That's she doesn't really mew. She just like, you know, do that, or or shook over by the lampshade or the uh the window shade, just like going, so get up and we'll feed them. And usually that's it. You just take one can, one half, and one half, the other one, and they'll sit and they'll start eating, and they'll leave me alone, I'll go back to bed. But then sometimes I'll put the food down and they'll just go, no, that's I don't want that. And then you're like, now what? It's 4 a.m. I told my wife, I go, listen, we no longer live in a home, we live in a cat restaurant, and I've had it. Yeah, we're we're staffed. Exactly. I know people are listening to this right now. What the fuck are we talking about with cats? But if you have cats, you know. And I don't know if you are you allergic to dogs? I'm really allergic to dogs.
SPEAKER_02Uh um, I mean, I probably am. I have one. Uh, she's a riot. I I went to get the mail one day and came back with a very sick puppy. And she's a 70-pound monster, but she's a ball of love. Uh, she she's just uh really, really friendly, loves little kids and loves that little cat. And but yeah, she's a she's a mess. Big ol' pit bull. Strong as a kids. Just ridiculous. Yeah. I got a whole mess of tricks I can get her to do. I mean, she's basically a circus fan.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Well, listen, my friend, thanks so much for spending some time with us today. It was awesome to talk with you as usual. I'm looking forward to seeing you down in Tulsa. Uh, hopefully this will come out before then, but I don't know for sure. One one never knows. That is already coming up on what do we got here? I think it's the 23rd, isn't it? It is the 23rd. Yeah, we're headed down. We're in Chicago tomorrow. And then we're in Madison, Wisconsin, and then we're in St. Louis, and then we're how far is Lawrence, Kansas from Tulsa?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I mean, it's not terrible, but it is a it's a drive. Yeah, we're there the day before, so okay.
SPEAKER_00So I'll have Toby and I'll have Dylan along as usual, and we'll be rocking and rolling. But I'll bring my uh I'll bring my old telly along.
Monetization, Cats, And Real Life
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I got it, I got a crusty old one from 66 that I'll bring out for you to see. It belonged to a fellow named Mike Bruce that played with uh uh Bob Seeger's original outfit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh my drummer's father was in that uh Dave Tegard senior. And he he did uh at least one tour with uh Bobby Blue Bland with that guitar. Oh, nice.
SPEAKER_00I'm a 66. So there we go. There you go. And I'm Krusty. Yeah, that's right. But you I forgot that uh Bob Seeger's band was originally okay. Wasn't Carl Radel? Were they in the original of one of the uh Bob Seeger bands? I can't remember. Oh, I don't know. I don't know if it was Carl or not. No, Carl, yeah, because he went right from uh Delaney and Bonnie to uh to Derek and the Domino's and then to Clapton, probably.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Man, they've got a bunch of Carl's basses and some of his road cases down at Guitar House at Tulsa on display. Really neat to see that stuff. They've got JJ Kale's baseman down there. What's that? Got the weird like 60s Tolex with the little squiggles in it. Kind of looks like you know Gretch Tolex or something.
SPEAKER_00Uh hopefully that place is gonna be open on uh on that uh maybe on that Saturday before we head to the gig's on Friday. Yeah, on the Saturday before we head to Nashville. I think uh maybe we'll we should go over there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they open at 11. That'd be awesome. Yeah, this is a neat spot, man. He's got a like crazy lap steel collection, too, all around the top of the the walls there. Drew's a really interesting cat. He he has curated some very interesting pieces. Uh and not all of it is like you know, Carl Radel stuff is in there. He's got some weird builds in there that are you know in the glass cases that are just freaky.
SPEAKER_00What do you hear from uh the Tommy Crook camp anymore? Do you know Tommy?
SPEAKER_02I don't know Tommy. Uh I think he sits in with um uh Shelby Iker has a trio thing that they do sometimes at the Jazz Depot and then uh another place that I think is a restaurant. Tommy doesn't play as much as he used to. He's gotta be he's gotta be 75 at least or more.
Local Legends, Shops, And Gear Stories
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I don't know, he might be 80 now. I mean if I'd come into town, I'd see him at some Thai restaurant. Yeah, Atlanta Thai. That place is great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good joint. Yeah, I'll just never forget the first time I came there. Uh the defender rep at the time was a guy by the name of Jim King. Do you ever meet Jim King? This is going back a ways. And um, and I may have done a clinic. I I forgot where it was in Tulsa where I did a clinic, but we we stopped by a place earlier in the day. This is probably 2001, by the way. I we stopped at a place um earlier in the day to look around that I wasn't doing the clinic at. And I'd come in and everyone's like, You're gonna go take him to see Tommy Crook. I'm like, what the fuck? What's who's Tommy Crook? And then Jim, man, he's a guy who used to play with Chad Egg. Chad Egg and said he was, you know, uh hot shit when he was on the Johnny Carson show, and yada, I'm like, oh, cool. Okay, that sounds great. And then we get to the next place and um where I'm doing the clinic, and they're like, you know, Tommy Crook's playing tonight at the Thai restaurant. I'm like, again with the Tommy Crook. Okay, we're going already. And then I do the clinic, and one of the first questions I get, any questions out there? Yeah, have you heard of Tommy Crook? I'm like, for the love of Christ, yes, we're gonna go see him. So then um we go to this Thai restaurant, and uh we walk in, and I'm like, what is this place? And we sit kind of in the lounge area, and all of a sudden I look up on stage and there's this bass player who's got like a Fender like music man uh bass, one of the old student model basses, and he had kind of a big gut, and he's sitting down with his, you know, playing the bass, and then there's Tommy Crook, he had this, you know, like early 70s, 335, uh going through a uh PV KB 400 amp or whatever it was, and he had a little drum machine that was going through the other channel of the of the PV, and then there was some gal singing, and then he would set up the drum beat, and all of a sudden they'd break into some kind of lounge jam and uh girl from Ivanema or something like that, and then the gal would sing and it was like lounge, and then it came time for the guitar solo, and he would, and it was like it was like that Django knife to your throat thing, you know what I mean? And then by the time the set was done, I was like, oh my god, this what have I just witnessed? This is insane. And so he came over to the table that we were at uh because he knew Jim, and I looked up at him and I was like, Tommy, that was amazing. I go, Do you have any CDs or tapes or anything? Meaning of his own, right? And he goes, Well, I got Ernest Tub tape in the car. You can't have that one, though. That told me everything I needed to know of why I hadn't heard of Tommy Carr.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, from what I understand about him, he didn't really have any desire to like, you know, go tour or make a whole shitload of records. He just, you know, wanted to raise a family and you know, stay.
SPEAKER_00There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that at all. The joy of playing is the thing, all the other stuff is just stuff you need to do so that you can play and be left alone. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Totally weird. All right, my friend. Take it easy. We'll uh hopefully we'll get some tacos when I'm in town again. That place is pretty good. Oh, yeah. We'll do round two.
SPEAKER_02I think I'm gonna go for the pork belly again. All right, my friend.
SPEAKER_00All right, take care. See you soon. Thanks again. Bye-bye. Thanks once again to our friends at Fishman and to all you for checking out our show, which we call Chewing the Gristle. We're gonna keep on, keeping on. See you soon.
