Chewing the Gristle with Greg Koch
Listen in on Greg Koch's conversations with his guitar-hero friends. Every episode Greg unleashes his fiendish humor and unique perspective as "one of the most famous unknown guitar players in the world", asking his often-famous musical friends the questions that we all want to know the answers to! Each episode is brought to you by Fishman and Wildwood Guitars
Chewing the Gristle with Greg Koch
From Mississippi Bars To Rice University: Chapman Welch On Guitar, Grit, And Growth
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We swap stories with Chapman Welch about building reactive music systems at Rice University and burning through Tele licks onstage. Chapman details his journey tracing a path from Mississippi studios and lessons with the almight Johnny Sandlin to slanging licks at bluegrass contests. We chat about Danny Gatton and Roy Buchanan, compare jam-bands with the Allman Brothers, and talk about how to make art, make rent, and keep your right hand honest.
FEAST
Opening Banter And Guest Intro
SPEAKER_03Folks, welcome to Chewing the Gristle, the podcast with yours truly, Gregory S. Cock Esquire, also known as Gregory Cockery in some circles. It's brought to you by our friends at Fishman, Fishman Transducers, if you will, and it features just random conversations with various guitar and music friends, just kind of shooting the breeze or chewing the gristle, if you will. Tune to my road work, we're gonna stay away from seasons, but we're gonna drop these as they become available. We appreciate you tuning in these years. We're gonna keep on doing this as long as we can, folks. If you're enjoying them, we're enjoying them. Can you dig it? Let's chew the gristle. This week on Chewing the Gristle, more fun to be had, another Telecaster Manipulator Extraordinaire! You've seen his videos online and the amazing Chapman Welch, who's also a professor at Rice University, but he's a flat-picking, telecaster-wielding instructor and player extraordinaire. And a hell of a nice fella. This week on Chewing the Gristle, we have Chapman Welch. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, the time has come once again for us to gather around the gristle fire for Chewing the Gristle. This week we have Chapman Welch coming in from beautiful Houston, Texas, as I understand it. And Chapman is a guitar-wielding potentate of the highest order. I've been checking out his content online, and he's just a treasure trove of tele tricks and actually not just tricks. I don't want to make that sound derogatory. Telly knowledge as well as bluegrass, ferocity, just an excellent player and educator. Just great content. And I thought it'd be fun to get together and shoot the breeze or chew the gristle, if you will. So, Chapman, welcome. Hey, Greg. Thanks for having me, man. It's great to be here. Well, pleasure. So tell me a little bit. So you're teaching at Rice University down there. So what do you all do down there?
SPEAKER_01Well, Rice is a like a classical conservatory. It's like up with like Curtis and Juilliard kind of vibe, you know. And um I teach interactive electronic music and like uh really weird stuff. Okay, like like uh how to turn, like basically I I'm teaching an undergrad course now and they make pieces. They write, how's the sound? Is it okay? Am I too loud?
SPEAKER_03No, you're all good.
SPEAKER_01Okay, groovy, man. Sorry. Um basically they write these pieces using software that they create that then controls like input, and we have like a 20 system, 20 speaker sound system, 20.2, and you know, just crazy stuff. And yeah, so it's it's like absolutely a strange path about how I got here. But yeah, definitely. So I teach I teach this really crazy uh kind of art music to children. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's fun, man. It's fun. Um and like what I would describe with Max Msp, I don't know if you've ever heard of that stuff. You can um it's a program, uh, they use an Ableton now. Ableton actually bought it, but uh what you can do is like make your own software, make your own plugins, make your own stuff. But like for what I do with you can do like really cool things that effects can't do. So like uh I can make it where every time you played a G, it has delay on it. Or every time every time you play a gel G, there's a 20% chance there's effects on it. And then it gets more likely to so you can just be playing and things will happen. It's like it's basically like little auxins. But I've had students make like meat smokers with this program too, where it's like if you can do any damn thing you want to, man, it's crazy. Yeah. So so that's what we're that's what we're doing here. Um, but man, it's a circuitous path that got me to uh this place.
SPEAKER_03Enlighten us. What's what's been happening? How'd you get there?
SPEAKER_01Uh man, I grew up in a little town in Mississippi called Corinth, Mississippi, real close to Memphis, real close to Tupelo, real co close to Muscle Shoals. And uh my brother, about 17 years older than me, uh was uh tried to make it in in country music and had uh you know some top 100 kind of billboard kind of stuff, did made it, made it, did some things, you know, and he worked with a fellow you knew, uh Johnny Sandlin.
SPEAKER_02Johnny Sandlin, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Max MSP, Ableton, And Wild Systems
Mississippi Roots And Johnny Sandlin
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and so Johnny, I have to say, it's like there's I have a classical side to my plan and like a like just rock and roll kind of side. And Johnny is like the main person for that rock and roll side that he he like he was my mentor. I learned tons from him, and you know, I can't, you know, sad he's gone, but uh I learned so much from him, and um anyway. My brother made a record with Johnny and they redid Ramblin' Man and had like a yeah, dude, and uh it had like a uh uh sorry, um what's the dude's name? Why am I zoning on like one of the gods of Dobro player extraordinaire, the greatest one of all time? Uh Jerry Douglas. Yeah, of course. Sorry, dude. It's like, yeah, Jerry Douglas, Jerry Douglas and like Sam Bush were all on that record, and and it's Jerry Douglas's break is amazing. Anyway, so I grew up with that kind of thing and uh doing classical piano and as well. And uh I had a little rock band, 15 years old. There was a little recording studio in my town in this dude's basement. We went and recorded a demo, and uh yeah, my wife, she's my wife now. Imagine that her guitar player married the singer, but yeah, we did. So uh, but uh how's that never happens, but uh so so uh but anyway at the time we're just kids, you know, 15 and 14. I've been playing in bars since I was a child because of that. My brother took it to Johnny, our little EP, and Johnny's like, that's pretty good, man. Let's and so we started recording with Johnny, you know, when I was like 16 years old, you know, 17. At Duct tape music, man. Oh my gosh. Uh yeah. And so, you know, Johnny was like the dude who introduced me to the blues. Like, I really didn't know Elmore James or any of that stuff until I was hanging out with him, and he was like, I was listening to like the sugar cubes and uh 10,000 Maniacs and REM, and he was like, he was like, that ain't gonna cut it. He got it. You know what I mean? He was not happy with my choices. So uh so he was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, dude. And so uh so we you know, I made several records with him and um or made two records with him and uh just learned so much. And you know, it's funny, Greg. I when you start there, you think that's how life is gonna stay. You know, you're like, oh well, this is this is how it is. Because it's like I would go in there and there'd be like, you know, there's this guy he always had named Bunky Anderson. I don't know if you remember Bunky, but Bunky was like Bunky was like a uh, I think he had been like the manager for Leonard Skinner or something, you know.
SPEAKER_03And um was it Bunky Odom?
SPEAKER_01No, no, it was Anderson. Man, was it was it Odom? Man, it's been a million years ago. But yeah, dude, so like we recorded it was funny, man. He Johnny, the first demo, he he brought us in. We had like six songs, and uh three of them he didn't like, three of them he liked. So the three of them he didn't like, he let our drummer and bass player play on. And then for the three he he liked, he he fired our bass player and drummer and got like this guy named Brian, and you know, these kids' little kid egos, they were we were it was it was a bad scene, but um he hired this drummer named Brian Owings. I don't know if you know him, but he played with the he played with Dilbert McClinton and now plays with uh like Emily Lou Harris, I think, but uh amazing drummer brought him in, he played great. Uh and then he had David Hood come and play the bass on it. And so it's funny, you know, having this bass player, like I didn't know the gravity of what that meant, you know, and I was like 16, 17. I was like, man, that's really cool. Um now, you know, but uh I heard it, oh, this legendary bassist is coming in to play on your record. I'm like, okay, it's great. I wasn't there for the session, Johnny was just doing it. I come back and I'm like, what's this guy gonna play? It's gonna be amazing. I can't wait to hear what he's playing. And he played exactly what our bass player played. He just played it in time, he didn't play one note. He didn't play one note different. I've handed God. And I I learned I learned a lesson that day. I was like, I was like, you know, uh people don't call you into it. It's not to like rethink it, it's to fix it, you know what I mean? Make it sound better. So that was a good lesson, just being like, wow. But you know, with all those guys, it had Jimmy Herring was uh they they were he was doing those records, the aquarium rescue unit records. And well, I met Johnny was through T Lavitts from the Dixie Drags. Oh, really?
SPEAKER_03And um Tho was playing with widespread, correct, at that time, and and uh T played on my first record back in 1992, it came out in '93. And he goes, You should send it to Johnny. And Johnny was very um, you know, he was very complimentary and and actually tried to hook me up with Bunky Odom because at that time he was putting a band together for Derek Trucks, and they were looking for another guitar player, and so that never ended up happening, but I remember as a result, but then we always wanted to record down there, and then we eventually did.
SPEAKER_02Oh, really? You did go down to duct tape?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we uh a record of mine called Four Days in the South was done at Duct Tape, and one of my favorite, and do you know Jeremy Stevens, his second, the engineer guy that he would use? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Young guy. Yeah, and um, and we recorded some stuff, and Johnny liked, of course, the bluesier stuff, but I had this this one tune that was particularly maniacal and um uh had some kind of volume swell sync thing, and it was a pretty heavy riff. And so he's like, Jeremy, you do this one. So he's hanging out in the and he's hanging out in the house, and Jeremy's doing the session with us, and we we decide to break for lunch. So we go to uh Gibson's barbecue, as I recall, and um we came back and there's a note from Johnny. Johnny said, Greg, was listening to that last song, Satan called. He said, Good job. Oh man.
SPEAKER_02Johnny, I'll take that. Johnny, man.
SPEAKER_01So many things he said, you know, that just I mean, he taught me how to record records, you know, and so it's like I learned how how how they made those records, how they made old school stuff, you know. And I don't remember if you remember he had that really old like burst uh strat in there and that was uh like I used that on a tune, yeah. Yeah, dude, that thing was amazing, you know. But anyway, so like yeah, man. Uh Johnny good Viberlux in there as well, as I recall. Yeah. He, you know, that so yeah, I just remember thinking that's how it was gonna be. You know, I'd be with these guys, you know, it's like that's how my life is gonna be. But we did another record with Johnny, and actually uh Jimmy Hall played uh played some harmonica on it, and uh yeah, anyway, so it's just like you think, oh man, this is how life's gonna be forever, but then you know, it's not how it was, man. So I ended up so we toured and toured and toured, man. But uh, you know, almost made it, didn't quite make it, you know.
SPEAKER_03You're a youngster, you're playing around, you're hanging out with the likes of Johnny Sandlin and the gang. Your older brother's got this thing happening. At one point, do you say I gotta go to school and and maybe I was about 28.
Studio Lessons With Session Legends
SPEAKER_01Uh I'd been on the road and I dropped out of school, and I was in this little town called Startville, Mississippi. It's where uh Mississippi State is. And um yeah, it just we had, you know, we had all the things. We had, you know, mental health issues in the band, we had people die, we had all sorts of horrible stuff. You know, just the story of a lot of bands. And um, it just, you know, almost, almost, not quite, didn't quite make it, you know. Um what kind of a band was it, if you don't mind me asking? It's a band called Law of Nature. And if you look at it online, it's still there, even though the record, some of the stuff we did with Johnny, we did like three tunes. Our most popular tune, Noise in the hallway, uh is uh is uh me at like 17 playing some playing that strat uh and uh yeah, dude, and playing organ. Man, I was playing organ on this thing, and I'm a piano player too. So uh uh we were playing the organ. He was like, Oh, what are you gonna play? And I started playing it, you know, because I had this interesting idea in mind. He was like, Oh, okay. And then he hit go. I started playing. He stopped the tape, he was like, I thought you were kidding.
SPEAKER_02He was like, Don't play that, just play the chords. I said, Okay, dude.
Band Years, Near Misses, And Burnout
SPEAKER_01I'd written this really weird counter melody to like the thing, and he was like, No, don't do that. That's that's wrong. Yeah, dude. So, yeah, but uh, but it I don't know, man. I we were on the road a bunch, we were playing like 200 dates a year at that point, you know, just like some ridiculous all over the place? Usually just the southeast. We'd come out to uh Texas or Oklahoma or you know, do things like that, but it was mainly just southeast, relentless. And we were uh with this guy, uh these people call like split nickel, and they did like you know, Sister Hazel, if you remember that band from the from the 90s, and um and anyway, uh and this other band called Jupiter Coyote that you probably have never heard of. But uh they were uh they were a making Georgia band, but they did well. But anyway, uh you know, just teaching somebody the same songs I had taught six other bass players since the time I was 15, you know, it's like at a certain point I'm just looking around going, man, I it's sitting for me. And it uh and it I just wanted to figure out another avenue. So uh had my my piano teacher actually was at Mississippi State. I I took I I got really serious in piano when I was like 12 and I started taking lessons from a professor, you know. And I really this guy named Joel Harrison, he really got me to to understand what it takes to get good at something, you know, to really buckle down. And like classical music gives you that um it doesn't teach you how to improvise ever, but it it teaches you how to refine technique, you know, and how to think about it and get it going. So man, I just I I had to go back, but he told me uh Joel told me about a guy named Mark Applebaum who teaches at Stanford now, but he's a crazy dude. If you look him up on the internet, you know, he has a crazy like TED Talk that he did. And Mark was teaching there, and I Mark was like, Man, you should you should be a composer because I'd written a lot of music, and he was like, Okay, why not? And so that's what I started working towards. He taught me jazz piano too, but uh so I started learning that and uh yeah man, then I went to North Texas for uh for composition. I got in there and uh I was buddies with all the guitar players because I started meeting them, you know. And what year is this abroad? Uh 2001. So like I graduated high school in like '92, dropped out of college in like '94, and then went back to school in like 2001, you know. So um that's basically we were still touring when we're in Starville. I went back to school earlier, but it's neither here nor there. Uh, a lot of guitar players there, though. I mean, uh, and just one of the guys who was working, I worked at this place called SIMI, the Center for Experimental Music and Intermedia. Yeah, dude. And so I went there and one of the guys there was the one o'clock guitar player there. So he was like, you know, King Shit of Fuck Mountain there for like everybody. And I started learning some jazz from him, and we just hit it off, and still a good friend of mine. And all these other great players were there, like Snarky Puppy, with all those people were there. Yeah, Mark, yeah, yeah. Mark was was uh well, he wasn't there. I I knew a um uh like Mike League was there, the bass player, and uh and a guy Brad Williams was uh there. He plays with um like Britney Howard and does a bunch of stuff, and uh just a bunch of great players. So I started meeting them and you know didn't really get into like I never even met an old Johnston until after I'd long graduated, you know, and uh yeah man, um so I didn't really do the jazz thing, I just did music composition and learned a bunch of really avant-garde stuff, you know. And uh then, but I never quit playing and I actually used guitar playing for my uh I I made it kind of like a focal point of my composition. I actually my uh master's thesis was about Danny Gatton. And it's this crazy piece that anybody heard it, they'd be like, this can't have anything to do with Danny Gatton, but it has like everything, it's all these chicken picking techniques and like stuff that he did, but it's like you know, crazy shit, man. Yeah, yeah, dude. But yeah, dude, so then um I don't know, I started doing bluegrass a lot. I grew up, my brother played bluegrass, so I knew that stuff, but I decided about 12 years ago, I'm sorry, I'm just rambling, Greg. I mean this is what you're here for. I hear I understand, but you know what I mean. It's like I I teach all day, and it's like I uh my job is to talk, but after a while I'm like, am I still talking? Jesus Christ, how'd that have? Yeah, so uh so uh about I guess about 10, 12 years ago, I heard Jake Workman. I don't know if you know Jake Workman, uh bluegrass player. That sounds familiar. The baddest fucking right hand on the planet. I I put him against anybody, man. Uh just insanity, dude. You gotta just check him out. If you put in Jake Workman, Rawhide 200 BPM, and it's like he's playing 400, you know, basically. Um and just crushes. He's like the uh the best right hand in bluegrass, without any doubt, I can say that. Uh and so I heard him play with Ricky Skags one night, and I was like, holy shit, what is that? I want to learn, I want to get my right hand better. Thought I had a good right hand until I heard him, and then I was like, what? So about 10 years ago, I decided, man, I'm gonna get my bluegrass down. And uh I reached out to Jake and we I took a bunch of lessons and we became friends, and he got me ready. I started going to like the national flat picking championship to try to see what I did. And I made the finals a couple of times, and I mean, winning those things, it's like you know, I felt like I won it every time I played, but you know, but it's always it's always judges, you know. And I play weird, man. I don't play like the regular bluegrass guys, you know. But anyway, so I started doing that, really working on the bluegrass and got in that world and then started meeting people and then started playing gigs. I decided, hey, I'm gonna go back gig again. Like 2019, December 2019 is a good time to start. Yeah, right, dude. So uh, but since then I've just been gigging and doing the social media thing, and that was really more of a a uh like an exercise in not being worried about what you're putting out there and not being worried because I feel like um people everybody's so judgmental online, and as soon as you put something out there, it's really you know a personal thing that you're doing. And uh and I'd get like I don't in a studio, I don't have red light syndrome, but you put that mic and that camera and that video in front of oh shit, what am I doing? I oh man, what are they gonna think? I'm just thinking about what everybody else is thinking, you know? And uh I decided, you know, I'm gonna try to beat that and try to get past that. And so I did, you know, and it uh And then the other thing, Greg, this is my main thing, you know. My whole life I wanted everybody to think, oh, he's a great guitar player. I want him to, I want people to think I'm a good guitar player, you know. Uh and if I put it out there as me trying to show you how good I was, that's one thing. But if I put it out as, hey, here's something for you guys to use, everybody was like, oh man, that's really helpful. And by the way, you can really play that thing. You know, which is so you got you get the thing you want by giving away, you know. So it's kind of a Buddhist way of trying to think about the the world, you know.
SPEAKER_03Well, I I I've said it many times as far as you know, I have the same attitude. It's like anytime I'm thinking, oh, I should really do this and this and this because it'll advance. It's like anytime I do anything that is more helpful to other people, shit goes well. Right. If it's ever just about me, it's just not so much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, dude. I mean, isn't that in that crazy? It's I mean, it it's very true, but we live in this whole it's you know, social media by definition is about me, because it's like it's it's me on the thing. But you know, if you just try to but still people are mean. I don't know if you get that too. People are still mean, even though yeah, dude. That always I always like it. The meaner it is, I like it the more, you know.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, I don't mind if it's mean as long as it's funny. You know what I mean? If it's not funny, then fuck off. You know, I have no time for it. Yeah, I don't but uh you know, every now and again you'll get one where like, okay, all right, I see you. That's good. But a lot of times, you know, what's interesting is I don't respond to anything, I barely respond to anything anymore just because you know, I just don't have time. And if I re- I mean, and then I see other people who are so diligent and they comment, you know, they talk to every individual. It's like if someone asks a question that's hey, Greg, you know this, and I'll be like, okay, well, I if it hasn't already been answered up above, which happens a lot, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01I'm sure you've had it where you've said everything about the post necessary, and then it's like kind of pickups are those, Joe Barnes by God, and it's like forever, forever. I've been telling you, but fuck it. I'll tell it again, you know.
Back To School And Composition Path
SPEAKER_03Exactly. So that kind of stuff, but but for the most part, if it's if it's really mean, and unless it's something where I'll just be like, just for the fun of it, I'm gonna I'm gonna engage. But then I always regret that as well. So I don't even I don't even respond anymore. And those people just go away. Yeah, they do just are gone. It's just hate bait.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, dude, they do want you to bite. Uh I had one guy tell me, you're fat, old, and and miserable. And I was like, I am not miserable, you know what I mean? Because it's it's like, brother, you you're gonna hope you get old one day, man. I mean, it's like you wish, mutant.
SPEAKER_03Yes, indeed, man. Well, the thing I think is interesting too. I don't know if you've if you've felt this, but I think people are meaner on Facebook than they are on Instagram. Instagram seems to be nicer, you know what I mean? You'll get occasional some an outliner, but man, Facebook, and I'm not entirely convinced that a lion's share of the people who talk shit are aren't bots. Yes. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01It's like they want engagement. Yeah, absolutely. And uh absolutely that that yeah, Facebook is worse, you know. Uh face for for like anger posts, and like normally, man, I will check and see if they say something mean, I check to make sure they don't live down the street from me or something, you know. Like you, I just see are they in my town? And then I always see if they can play. On Facebook, I've been doing this just to abuse myself. I'll see what they do, and I will respond to their mean comment with something about what they do. Like this guy was a distributor for Heims, and I kept writing it's like that thing may only get you so far. And I'm but like, may, you know, it's like the kind of and just to just to see if he notices. I can think of 57 reasons that's untrue, you know. It's like it's the little things that are amusing to me, man.
SPEAKER_03I don't know. Well, you gotta do it. You gotta you gotta stay sane.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, you know, I first I would just tell you, man, it's like um I really appreciate you having me. And you know, I'm actually coming, I'm gonna come to your show on January in. I think you're coming to Houston again.
SPEAKER_03We're playing at a place called the Bad Astronaut.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. There's a guitar player in town, uh Kelly Doyle. I don't know if you know. I do know who that is. Yeah, he's great. Yeah, Kelly is a good buddy of mine, and so we're gonna come, we're gonna definitely come here.
SPEAKER_03I'm home down, bring your air, plex. Oh, yeah, is you guys get it loud? We're a little boisterous. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's uh although have you been to this place? I've never been to this place yet. I've never been. Kelly and I were talking, neither one of us have ever been. He said it's like an indie kind of hip hip place, you know.
SPEAKER_03Last time we were there, we played at the Continental Club, and it was great. We had a good crowd. It must not have been available. We got this our our our new agent agent. It's well, he's our he's an agent that I've had for a while, but for he went off to WME, which is his big, you know, would this endeavor, which is all the the the big boys, and um and then he came back around and he's like, hey, I've gotten a promotion here and we're gonna bring you on board. So we we got this you know big time agency, except for the fact that you know, when I suppose his other days are preoccupied with booking, you know, five hundred thousand dollar acts as opposed to you know booking up, but he's been doing a great job, but a lot of times these gigs come in kind of uh short notice. So this one was only booked like maybe a month ago or two months ago, maybe six weeks. And uh, so I would imagine that that mitigates which places are available. But yeah, we played the Continental Club there last time. That was cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was out of town or I would have come, you know, because yeah, would have liked to have checked it out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, isn't the mighty orc from down there as well? Well, you know him too, yeah. I've never met him, but he used to be booked by the same guy that books us in Europe, and I've heard his stuff, I thought he was great.
Bluegrass Obsession And Championships
SPEAKER_01Yeah, dude, he's down here, and uh I play gigs with like his drummer. Uh of course now I'm forgetting even people I know. Believe me, I'm the same way. Just like I couldn't think of Bob Lanzetti earlier from yeah, so I I I knew him a little bit, you know. Anyway, so now 10 minutes from now I'll I'll remember this. Chris R done Chris Rdwan. He's uh he's he's orcs uh drummer, and I play with with him uh some. But yeah, so it's like dude, I gig around town. I played this gig with I don't know if you ever saw Hedwig in the Angry Inch, that crazy show. It was a Broadway show, but it's like it's a crazy, crazy kind of uh yeah, it's a crazy movie. Anyway, I played with that dude the other other night. So I kind of just take what kind of comes through as I'm still teaching. But as I get older, it's sort of like that. I don't know that you know the story about like the Mexican fisherman who is funny, he gets he gets the greatest tuna, and the businessman comes down there and he's like, Man, we could make a ton of money with this. It's like, what's your day like? It's like, well, you know, I catch the fish, I you know, go play with my friends, and then you know, I make love to my wife, and then I start it all over again. And and he's like, Okay, well, we'll do this, and then 30 years from now, you can come back down here, you know, sit on the beach all day, catch tuna, make love to your wife. You know, it's like the it's like so it's like I feel like after this whole thing, now I'm just a I was talking to my buddy uh Kevin Patton, who's uh guitar player saying the one o'clock guy at North Texas, and it's like after all this, he went into academia and now we're back to playing gigs again. We're like, you know, we're just old guitar players, man. It's like we tried to gussy it up, but it's like we're just I love the guitar, man. There's nothing better than it, you know.
SPEAKER_03It's still my favorite thing to do with my clothes on, as I like to say, you know.
SPEAKER_01You do the shit out of it, man. You you're phrasing. I I I was listening to some of you, I've heard your records before, but I was listening to one of your records yesterday, and I was like, this is just the most bonkers phrasing, like in a good way. I don't mean that, you know, like it's it's like, do what now?
SPEAKER_02Like, what the hell did he just say?
SPEAKER_01You know, it's like it's I I mean that in a in a positive, I mean that in a positive way. I appreciate it. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know, it was an interesting thing for me because I never toured with the band all that much in in the States. You know, most of the stuff I had done all over the place was doing, you know, because I had young kids. I got I had four kids, I still have four kids, but um, you know, my youngest one is 22 and out of the house now. But, you know, for years, I, you know, I did the Fender thing, you know, I did the Hal Leonard thing. I wasn't working for any of these, but I was like a clinician for these people. And so I would do like gigs, clinics, whatnot. I'd travel around and I'd always put out records. Um, but I never really had an agent in the States. That was the hardest thing. It's like I'd get record deals, and you're thinking, oh, I got a record deal now. Now I'll get an agent. And they're like, you don't give a shit. It was just it was very, very difficult. And then in Europe, it kind of worked out. I got a record company over there and we'd go over there and tour. Uh, but in the states, it was a big conundrum until finally I was during, it was during COVID. Um actually I think it was just prior to COVID. I was doing a live stream and people were chiming in, like, hey, how come you don't come to Poughkeepsie? How don't you how come you don't come to you know Atlanta? How come you're not coming to Sacramento? I was like, listen, I don't have an agent. And so a guy was watching who was an agent, who's still my agent, the guy at WME, and he started the whole thing. So then we started playing, and so what it's long story short, long story seemed like they're going on for an eternity here, but um, I've been able to have an agency in the States to do what I've always just wanted to do, which is have my own band, play my own music, and travel around and do my thing.
SPEAKER_01And your son's in the band, right?
SPEAKER_03And so he so he plays drums, he's like the marketing savant now. He's really good at at putting together all the ad campaigns and he's in charge of the mailing list, all that kind of stuff. But you know, it's it's a strange thing to have him as a drummer because when I was when I was younger, I was like, man, if I could just find a drummer that that understood the funk and the jazz stuff, but could shuffle like a demon and understood why Keith Moon and John Bonham and Ginger Baker were so badass. And he's that, yeah, dude. All on his own, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh so that's just a blast. So I uh speaking to your comment of just you just want to play gigs and make enough money to get paid. I don't uh as I always say, I don't need a million, I just need enough. So as long as you get enough people coming out to support what you're doing, I'm good. You know, if it elevates to anything more than that, hey, fantastic. But if it doesn't, and I can still maintain what I'm doing until I can't do it anymore. Let the good times roll.
SPEAKER_01I hear you, man. I hear you, dude. And you know, it's like for me, I'm like, man, I'm in the last like third of my life, you know. It's like that you start really when I hit 50, I was like, okay, what do I want to do?
SPEAKER_03And how old are you now, if you don't mind me asking? 52. You're young, and I just turned 59.
Social Media, Teaching Mindset, And Hate
SPEAKER_01Oh man, well, that ain't that's pretty damn close to 52 there, Greg. So it's like, you know, I don't know, you know, there might be a tour in my life left. I don't know. It's just like, you know, I don't have any kids, and so my wife and I we're just like, we can do anything, but then I sit and do the same thing. I teach every year, you know. I I love teaching. These kids are amazing, they they really keep you on your toes. They're little geniuses, you know. Rice is also a really good academic school, so the uh kids are really smart. Oh god. And the musicians are gonna ask you that. The musicians are are ridiculous. I mean, they are like some of the best on the planet in classical music. They couldn't they couldn't play a blues if if it was the end of the world. If you know, if they could stop the destruction of the planet, we'd all be dead. You know what I mean? It's like so so if that happens around here, they better call me or or another guy I work with that can play. But but uh yeah, dude, it's like so they're not improvisers, but they're there's something else that um is really interesting, you know. It's like that classical thing is like just striving for the same thing. They're all trying to get to the same spot with the same thing, and it has this lineage, and so there's some amazing stuff to that too. But I heard somebody say this there's no um there's no amateur classical musicians. I never heard, I've never heard, and I've it's true, it's like you don't see like kind of a throw-together uh string quartet down at the down at the concert hall, you know. It's like I got my buddies together, we're playing some hiding, you know. It's like, no, it doesn't work like that. And uh so there's that mentality. These kids are like try they're little ninjas and they're trying to be paid and like you know, go down that path. And it's a it's something I it's it's a hard, it's a hard path for them. It's like really complicated, but anyway.
SPEAKER_03How much money are you gonna make? And and it's not always about that. Sometimes you just want to be great at something because you want to be great at it, and then you'll figure out the monetization part afterwards. But by the same token, you have to be somewhat cognizant of the fact that food is good, rent is good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, dude. Absolutely, man. And you know, I had um like my dad, you know, he he was an old school dude. He they're kind of the ones, in a way, who pressured me out of rock and roll in a way. They were very supportive, super supportive. I can't say that really that they press me out of it, but I felt this pressure of like, so what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? And it's just still playing, still touring. I was doing that, and it was just I felt that pressure. So I was like, man, I'm gonna go learn this stuff. And I I I appreciate that I really pushed music, what I could learn about the esoteric side of music as about as far as I could do it, you know. It doesn't help you play blues, it doesn't help you play guitar, it doesn't help, but like if you've if I had to make like a crazy scale that it if I had to write for an orchestra, if I had to, I know how to do that, you know. Um and so I appreciate that. But um, but yeah, man, um dude, it it was it was just one of those things I felt kind of uh pressured out of it, you know. And these kids are under so much pressure. I don't know, man. I I kind of lost my the impetus of this thought uh towards the but it um but it pushes like these kids are like there's like three jobs open a year and they're all fighting for it.
SPEAKER_03That's what I was gonna ask you. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, man, and you know, and um that job pays really good though. You know, it does. It's like you know, if they get the gig, like starting pay in orchestra is pretty good, you know, you're making six figures a lot of times, you know. But you're the one of the few gets it, and there's tons of guys. There's this dude, he went, he got a master's degree at Juilliard, he got a master's degree here, and now he's a cop in Aspen. You know what I mean? But he had been to Aspen because he's a classical musician. He was like, Well, you've got to be a cop somewhere. Let's let's do it now. You know, it's like it's not gonna your chances are you're not gonna be like cracking heads much there, you know, or it's gonna be pretty pretty easy. But I remember telling my dad when I finally got, he was like, How much money do you make when you get a doctorate in composition, music composition? I was like, Well, if I'm lucky, I'll get this gig and I'll make whatever it was at the time, 60 grand a year or whatever. And he was like, What the hell are you doing this for? He was like, This is the dumbest idea I've ever heard, you know, because he was a doctor. He was like, You should make money, you know, it's that different mindset. And I think that we all can happiness is more important. There's not enough money to make you happy, you know what I mean? There is not enough money in whatever you're doing that'll make you happy. So uh I love what I do, man. I love I love playing the guitar, I still do it, you know, I still get out there, do gigs. I I I want to keep doing that and making content and also at some point, I got like I said, I got another tour in me at some point. But uh but uh yeah, it's tough, man.
SPEAKER_03I know all these about the that whole audition thing because I feel like if you're a classical musician going for one of these, you know, and they're rapidly diminishing these opportunities because money for the arts is obviously you know bollocks because of well, you know, yeah, uh that people go in and they'll like say, Oh prepare these things, and sometimes these musicians will come in and they'll pay like a few bars and they'll say, Thank you, and then off you off you go.
Touring Realities And Agents
SPEAKER_01Students, uh, you know, my students they're usually not in class due to the fact that they're on an audition, you know. And so um I teach grad students too, and they're the ones who are, you know, getting the gigs at this point, you know. And usually doctorates in music, they don't get them because it's like it's sort of master degrees terminal for a uh for a um a player, you know, trying to get a gig. And so this is different than like a place like North Texas, which is more jazz and a lot of classical music, but it's not the classical level that this place is. Uh there's thousands of students at at U of H, I mean pardon me, at uh UNT, but here there's like 200, you know, so it's very elite, these kids. Um but what he told me was he went on audition and they didn't hire anybody. Because they have like here, this is the other thing. This is this would piss me off, dude. It's like they'll have these um auditions and it'll be like assistant principal of the Cleveland Philharmonic or whatever you mean, Cleveland Orchestra rather. And um they uh if they don't have a candidate that they think nobody wins and they just keep the job going. And if you don't have experience, let's say it's like a a higher up, like if it's like a administrative version of the string quartet, like in other words, you're a principal player, so that means like you know, you're kind of like chief on these people, you know, the people sitting in a lower chair than you or whatever. And um if you don't have experience, so there's a student who uh at the Houston uh symphony who basically the first four seats are are open because they can't hire anybody because you gotta have experience to get it. She was the best, they hired her, uh, but they hired her and put her down in the lower seats, you know. So she got a gig out of it. But most of the time, this guy traveled to, I don't even know where he traveled, I didn't even ask. Oh, to Cleveland, it was Cleveland. And uh not only did he not get the gig, nobody got the gig. So they all to travel there. And so that's how that shit works, man. It's crazy, dude. Um it's it's hardcore, man. And um they have to they have to play these excerpts. So it's like all these excerpts that are written out uh from the classical literature, from these things they played their whole life from like this Beethoven symphony or this, you know, thing that they they have to have it prepared. And like you said, they'll be like next. It's blind auditions, they put it, it's behind a screen and they just go and play the thing and you hope you do okay. And I would hate it. And and playing the same thing over and over again. It's it's a you know, to each his own. To me, that would drive me insane. I was a pianist, I thought I'd play piano, you know, but uh sitting in a practice room for eight hours a day was not for me, man. I was like, I'm gonna write this stuff. It's like the difference between writing it and playing classical music is like the difference between being the dentist and the patient to me. It's like I I don't I don't wanna I don't want to uh I don't want to get on stage and have to like play that hard stuff. I want to like be able to flow and ebb and flow and do my thing, you know? I'm with you. Yeah, man.
SPEAKER_03Well if we could regress, not regress, but maybe sidetrack into tele talk. Um how did you get turned on to Danny Gatton? And um how was your how's your thoughts of the whole? I mean, again, it it's it's never a competition, but it but I'm just interested in the two flavors that there's some overlap of Roy Bekan. And and Danny Gatton.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_03And there's definitely and and I I love them both. Yes. But um just curious as to how you discovered those individuals and how it affected you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, man. Well, chicken picking stuff. I had that uh new Nashville cats, that Marco Connor record. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Depressing that that that tune with Brent Mason playing that Jesus.
Houston Scene And Gig Stories
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I heard that and I was like, I want to know how, how, how. So Johnny, uh, I was there. I was like, I need to learn how to play this country stuff. And I wish I could remember this cat's name. Uh, but Johnny said, hey, I know a guy, he just uh quit working sessions in Nashville and he's living in Muscle Shoals. And hey, you go take a lesson from I took my tape recorder over there and he taught me Don Dick taught me all like the Buck Owens kind of you know, the Don Rich stuff. And and I walked in, I was like thinking, I'm a badass. I'd like, you know, I'm recording with Johnny. I'm this badass guitar. And he sits down there, I'm like, and I just leave going, I'm the worst guitar player that has ever played one, you know. And so you know how it is, man. It's just getting that to where it's automatic, to where you can just do that stuff and just really shred on it. So that's how I got into it at first. But Mason was the one I wanted to be, you know, because he's the one I heard on those things. And then I heard Danny Gatton, and I was like, oh my God, I don't even know how I came across Danny Gatton, maybe in a guitar player magazine. I don't know, you know, something showed up and I uh heard his playing, and I just was immediately like, you know, I loved the fireworks, but I also loved how like my wife says she's a singer, and uh, you know, she was like he sings with the guitar, and he really does. You know, he it it's it's not just chop affair, it is chop affair, but it's like he's telling a story too, you know. He really gets musical. Yeah, dude, he gets it, you know. Leviathan Yeah, he gets it across the finish line every time, you know. And um, yeah, dude. And so for him, I just you know, I got those those videos. I took hardly very hardly any guitar lessons in my life, you know. It was mainly just learning from videos and just from playing with people. I mean, like, you know, you meet Jimmy Herring, he blew up my Soldano one night. He wouldn't remember this, but he he he blew up my Soldano and uh he had to drive around with me for looking for a new fuse, and we couldn't get the vans out. And like uh I went to a friend of mine who's a great guitar player. I was like, hey, you want to drive me and Jimmy Herring around to look for fuses? He's like, Yes, yes, I did. And the whole time he was getting peppered with questions about how do you do that lick on the you know what's uh yeah, I'm sure he was like trying to jump out of that car, man. But uh anyway, but he blew up, he blew up my Soldano and it it didn't work right ever again. But I finally got it fixed, it finally did it. But uh so for Roy Buchanan, I came to him late, you know. Uh I I was really a Danny Gatton person. People were talking about Roy Buchanan, I was like, okay, but uh Roy Buchanan, man, is just it's a a very different thing from Gatton to me. It's like the opp like almost the fireworks are there, but it's just such a different way of approaching the guitar, man, you know? And uh like that double bend thing you're talking about, like bending up and down. I saw you talking about that. Yeah, that thing is like a uh, you know, of just a Roy became like when you hear him play, it's it's similar to like I think about sometimes about like when I heard your record yesterday. It's just like it's just these spit spit out these things, and it's just like, whoa, that was it was really a statement, and like what is that thing? And it's like it takes time to like dissect it and digest it. It's not something, it's not a uh his his playing, I think, is uh more inscrutable than Danny Gatton. Like I can't figure out him as easily as Danny. Not to say Danny Gatton's, it's not it's not about ease, it's just like I get through with the Danny Gatton, like it starts here, it ended here, and this crazy stuff happened in between. But with Roy Buchanan, it's more like it's kind of impossible to imitate, you know. It's just like, what is this?
SPEAKER_03It's kinda uh like that Jeff Beck thing, you know, where it's like they do some of the same things, but then they do none of the same things.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then uh that's the beauty of all these guys is just how uh well Jeff Beck, I'd say, you know, fortunately not enough stuff for Roy Buchanan to say this, but uh just how it changed all the time and how they were always looking and always searching for that next thing rather than kind of sit resting on their guitar laurels and kind of playing the same stuff. And for me, man, it's just I get bored playing the same stuff over and over. I want to learn new stuff. I gotta new, I gotta learn new stuff. I gotta. And man, uh speaking of it, at some point I'm gonna put out a record because I haven't put out a I've put out rock and roll records since I've lived in in Houston, but like a guitar record. The world needs yet another guitar record, right? So at some point I'm gonna I've been working on some stuff. I will eventually put something out again, but I've been really fascinated with like just going back and getting better myself because I didn't like I said, I didn't get a degree in guitar, so it's like filling in gaps of knowledge that I felt like weren't weren't were there in my brain, but not in my fingers, you know. Yeah, man. But yeah, Gattin is is tops for me as far as like just uh a guy to aspire to as far as like just pick up the guitar and play some nonsense. There's nobody who could who can compete, man.
SPEAKER_03It's like vocabulary of right. I think the stuff that's the most frightening to me is is when he's playing with um uh the Pattel Steel guy. Um yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Why it's see once again, why can't we think of it uh redneck jazz stuff? Um yeah, exactly. Um it's gonna kill me. It's uh Buddy Emmons, of course.
Academia, Classical Excellence, And Careers
SPEAKER_03Buddy Emmons, thank you. Because Buddy Emmons was a super freak. And then you so then he's pushing, he's pushing Danny, and that stuff, man, it is insane. But I got I guess for me, it it's I love Danny. I learned a lot of stuff from Danny. I did get a chance to meet with meet him, and we played a gig together, and we got in touch, and and uh that was pretty awesome. And we were actually gonna do a tour uh when he was gonna come through the Midwest, we're gonna do some shows with him, but then uh he canceled those gigs and what happened happened, which is horrible. But um you know that I think I probably listened to more Roy uh just because of that spooky musical shaman thing, you know what I mean, as opposed to Danny was more literate, you know what I mean? I think he was a more literate uh jazz knowledge-having guitar player. I mean, Roy knew definitely some and could navigate some changes. Did you ever meet Roy Buchanan or did you never did meet Roy? So um I remember a buddy of mine, and I I still say this all the time, we're gonna scald some brains. But uh Roy, a buddy of mine saw Roe Buchanan. Uh he had a summer job in Nashville. Um, we were going to school up in rural Wisconsin, and uh he came back, because I saw Ruby Cannon at this little club. He came out and he just went up to the microphone and he said, We're gonna rock your brain. And ever since then, I've used that and permutated it. We're gonna scald your brains. But I thought that was cool. We're gonna rock your brain. I love it. Bring it, yeah, dude. Absolutely, man. But I will say Danny Live, it was I you know, at that particular, this is probably 90 what 91, 92, the where this transpired. And uh it was a triple bill. It was my band, which was doing very well in the area at the time, and and um then Danny played, and then Mick Taylor was a triple bill, it's pretty cool. And um Taylor ended up using my my super reverb. That's another story, but uh blow it up, did he? No, he did not. He enjoyed it. I go, How'd you like the super? He's like, Oh, it was fantastic. And I said, I said, where are you guys headed next? What am I gonna use in? He looked at me like I just asked him his underwear size, and he goes, I don't know. It was like it was like that for tough though. It was awesome. But uh, but Danny was cool as the day as long. But anyway, he did the show, and at that particular time, we had done a lot, we had opened up for a lot of the different um guitar guys of the day. I Steve Morris and um oh, we we did some great shows with Lonnie Mac. I got to know Lonnie and play with Lonnie. That was a blast. Uh, but a lot of the more medley guys, too, Shredder guys as well. Uh, but of all the kind of instrumental guitar stuff at that time, Danny had the best concept of entertainment. It's like as as awesome as he was as uh obviously as a virtuoso, he understood how to entertain. And and the arrangements and everything he did, it just it it rocked. It was awesome. Yeah, I really it was inspired levels.
SPEAKER_01That's the thing, man. It's like, you know, I I played a lot of gigs, and it's like you gotta you gotta do something, man. You can't just, you know, it's can't be like just I'm gonna sit here and stare at my feet, and that's a lot of what guitar play that's kind of what I get paid to do now, you know. It's like somebody singing up there doing his thing, and I'm just going, uh, you know, padding it out and doing, but but if you're playing in a band, like you're saying, like something where it's like your name's on the marquee. I mean, it's like you gotta bring it indeed, man. It's funny, you know. You said Steve Morris, it made me think of another Johnny story, like I said, he was so fundamental in my life. But uh he was talking to uh Steve. I called him up one day and he was like, I was like, what are you doing? It's like me and Steve Morris are having lunch, and I was like, I was just blown away because I love Steve Morris. I was like, holy shit. And I I kept going on and on to finally he was like, You want his autograph? And I was like, Yeah, I'll take his, I'll take his. So next time I saw Johnny, he was like, Here's your he just was fucking with me so hard.
SPEAKER_02He's like, Here's your autograph for you. He just like I don't know, he ever scoped, he always say a scope, too.
SPEAKER_01You know that's like you're a scotch off. It was a scotch flat, you know. Anyway, dude. Yeah, man. Yeah, dude. Those Ann Sandlin meals were epic. Yeah, she Anne's great, man. Ann and you know, he had I I never knew his daughters really, you know, uh, because they were a little older than me. But Ann, Ann's great. You know, I remember her when we first started coming there. After a while, she'd come and she'd look at me, she'd say, You look like you can carry the equipment now, you know. You do like before she was saying you y'all are such scrawny children. It's like, you know, she's like you failed out. You look like you could carry that shit.
SPEAKER_03Uh it's like funny was that one day we went out for lunch at at Bob Gibson's. She was mad because she was making dinner, and she thought she was gonna make all this food and we weren't gonna eat, so she was pissed. And I looked at her and I go, Don't you worry about a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, you know, it at six, seven, and you know, I I can put it away, especially back then when I didn't have to worry about as much um pushback, shall we say, yeah, yeah, yeah. Forces of metabolism. I failed, man. Yeah, I had no problem cleaning house for for Anne. I devoured the food, which was all good. But yeah, dude. Those meals were were epic. But I remember one time we were recording down there, um Duane's daughter Galadriel, was there because she was working on her book and she was staying at the house. And so she'd hang out for the session. So I'd be doing guitar overdubs, and there'd be Galadriel Allman, you know, just curled up on the couch in the studio there reading the book. And I was like, And she she looks like Dwayne, you know, red hair, you know, there's a I never met her be you could definitely tell she's Duane Allman's daughter, but yeah, huge Allman Brothers fan. So it's kind of like, this is wild hanging out with Johnny Sandlin at a studio, yeah. It's just like woo, it was pretty wild. Yeah, dude.
SPEAKER_01It's like every time it just like I'm not much of a slide player, but I would play slide every now and then on just like some kind of backing thing. Every time I put on that slide, I'd be like, this is not good. You know what I mean? Because I'm like, I know one thing, it's not gonna happen. I'm not gonna impress Johnny with my slide playing today. Yeah, that's definitely not happening. It's funny though, man. Like uh, you're talking about like, you know, that like worried about it. It's like it was either, it might have been Bunky Odom, but it would, but I think it was, I think his last name was Anderson. But he had all those old guitars, you know, there. And uh like he had like I'd come in, they'd be like, you know, old 335s, old. We played, I'd never played on a on a Harvard, on a Fender Harvard sort. And that's that's the Steve Proper amp, right? Yeah, that thing was amazing, dude. And um he had those, he had all that shit, you know. Anyway, and I started overdubbing, you know, doing my solos, and um he was sitting there and he's like, I tell you one thing about yourself, and I was like, What? He's like, you've had every major appliance, you've had every major utility in your house cut off. And I was like, How'd you know that? He said, I've known a lot of good guitar players.
Auditions, Orchestras, And Harsh Realities
SPEAKER_02I was like, I was like, I that's both a compliment and like a I had to have like an existential crisis there too, you know, because it's like, dude, you know me so well because I had had everything cut off, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, dude. Yeah, man.
SPEAKER_01Dude, what a character he was. Bless his heart. Yeah, man. Those guys, that's that's a dying breed, man. You know, that's like well, no question about it.
SPEAKER_03I mean, well, as we were discussing, we're we're aging, and so those guys, I mean, yes, all those guys now. I mean, I I look at just the other day, you know, Keith Richards and Jimmy Page are like 80, you know, 82 and 83, and I'm like, first of all, how is that possible? Yeah, yeah, right. But all those guys, I mean Bob Weir dying recently, you know. That was insane. Yeah, I mean, you know, and I I I I posted a little thing. I mean, I just couldn't be disingenuous. I was never a huge Grateful Dead fan. I enjoyed aspect. I was just discussing this with a buddy of mine this morning who came over. It's like, you know, but anyways, I wanted to post something nice, you know, about the fact that, you know, I was a I was um, you know, I respected them and I respected their fans, and I even respected more that he seemed like he was such a cool guy. But he seemed forever young. He was always working out and yeah, right, you know, all that kind of stuff. But yeah, yeah, that was a shocker to me. Yeah, yeah. Uh but I was describing because yesterday I was driving home and there's a really cool public um uh actually it's a it's a college radio station in town here called uh 91.7 WMSE. And they play just whatever the people want to play, they play it. So on one particular day or yesterday when I was driving, uh, they started playing some live dead stuff. And I'm like, and I always try to give it the college try. You know what I mean? I'm like, I'm gonna listen to this. And as I'm listening to it, I'm like, what? And then and all of a sudden there'll be like this Jerry will do something. You're like, that is really cool. You know, Jerry will play some cool stuff. I always love the tone. Yes, and then and then they go into this other brand, and then the vocals start, and you're just like, Can you try just a little harder? I mean, you know, and then it goes and then it segues into something else, and there's this really cool little segue that really sounds cool. And I'm thinking, you know, it's like little tidbits of brilliance in this soggy loaf.
SPEAKER_01Yes, indeed. Yeah, man. I you know, the the dead was never my friends were way into it, but I was never into it. But uh I've played a million bluegrass, you know, is tied into that. You know, you got like you know, olden in the way and all those bands that had like Jerry Garcia in it. So I know the bluegrass side of it and like the pizza tapes. I don't know if you ever heard those, you know, the uh that's a really cool thing, man. You might dig that. Uh it's it's it's uh Grisman, David Grisman, um uh Tony Rice and uh Jerry Garcia. Okay and the store the story is yeah, that's a badass, and it's just them hanging out. And the story is that Grisman had the tape sitting on his stuff, and somebody delivered a pizza and stole it and made made copies of it, and it was distributed, it was kind of underground, and then he eventually just released it all eventually.
SPEAKER_03Interesting.
SPEAKER_01That's the story tapes, the pizza tapes, and so yeah, it's it's it's pretty great, man. It's like you know, Jerry Garcia is not in his best voice, but just the two of those together, like you know. But like you said, I was never into it. Like, you know, people I play I play guitar with this dude in town named Corey Quinn, and he'll he'll he's a big dead fan, so he'll say, Let's play Mama Tried. And I'm like, Okay, let's play Mama Tried, but let's do the dead version of Mama. And I'm like, what is that? And it's like it's got a six minor, it's got all sorts of stuff. You're like, it's got stops and punches. It's like, what the fuck is this, man? I don't even know. You know, the chords are everything, yeah. So so I'm always like, wait a second, are we doing it the real way or the dead way?
SPEAKER_03You know, dead way, but that's the thing about I mean, like, you'll listen to something, and all of a sudden there'll be like these really cool chord changes, like, well, what is this? This is cool. I like, but in in that same arrangement will be some stuff where you're like, What? It's just it's just such a head scratcher to me. But yeah, man, I appreciate it, and I I love the fact that they lasted as long as they did, and people just love them, and it's a huge part of uh culture. I get all of that, but I guess I'm um I just wouldn't categorize myself as a fan. I just couldn't be disingenuous and go, I was a huge dead fan and R.I.P. Bob. I was just like, Yeah, I appreciate you, but you know, RIP love.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, man. It's yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, the widespread stuff Johnny did of that, you know, and widespread has that has that similar crowd, you know, that the the jam band thing. Um and I'm not I I was definitely head first in the jam band stuff just because that was what was happening when I was out there on the touring, but uh but I don't know, man. As I get older, I I I like the jam, but I like less of the mono uh mono key kind of just noodling forever, you know.
SPEAKER_03It's just like there was there was a although there were some overlapping similarities, there's a big difference between the Allman Brothers band and the Grateful Dead. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Like the Allman Brothers is like an orchestra well placed, and everything is kind of like has its part, and there's there's improv, but there's really set things, and it's you know, and it, yeah, dude, it's definitely more for me too, you know. Whereas the dead was sort of like, well, we've done this thing a hundred times, it's gonna be different tonight, too. And maybe maybe there'll be magic in it, or maybe it'll just be terrible. And there's some some terrible dead, you know. Uh, but I think they would be okay with that, you know. I think that's sort of the point of it, is that's all well and good.
Why Art Over Money And Life Choices
SPEAKER_03And if people love it, let the good times roll. I just I feel it, man. I know what you're saying, dude. Yeah, man. I do know.
SPEAKER_01I do know, I do know exactly. Uh where you're like, brother, I don't need this anymore, man. But I've had to learn a lot of that stuff from like students or like in bluegrass fans, they'll like, I don't know. They all learn like this uh slit knot, you know, that's the art. They are they all learn. So it's funny, like the bluegrass cats in Nashville, they used to say, You know any grateful dead? They'll just play Slitknot for you, and that'll be like they're proof.
SPEAKER_00I know it all, but they don't know any of it here. Anyway, they know that they know the hardest thing they ever did. Yeah, but.
SPEAKER_03Listen, my friend, thanks so much for spending uh an hour with us today. It was an absolute pleasure. And uh I look forward to hopefully seeing you in a couple weeks here.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, Greg. Thank you so much for having me, man. And uh just really uh honored to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm honored that you came on, and uh we'll hopefully see you very soon.
SPEAKER_03Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01Take care, brother.
SPEAKER_03Bye-bye. Thanks once again to our friends at Fishman, and to all you for checking out our show, which we call Chewing the Gristle. We're gonna keep them on, keeping them on. See you soon.
