Chewing the Gristle with Greg Koch
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Chewing the Gristle with Greg Koch
From Jingles To Judd Apatow - Lyle Workman Talks Shop and Guitars
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We sit down with guitarist and composer Lyle Workman to trace the real-life path from Bay Area bands to major film soundtracks and global stages. We talk craft, money, gear, and the unlikely chain of moments that turns a working player into the go-to sound behind hit movies and tours.
FEAST!
Welcome, Sponsor, Meet Lyle
SPEAKER_01Folks, welcome to Chewing the Gristle, the podcast with yours truly, Gregory S. Cock Esquire, also known as Gregory Cockery in some circles. It's brought to you by our friends at Fishman, Fishman Transducers, if you will, and it features just random conversations with various guitar and music friends. Just kind of shooting the breeze or chewing the gristle, if you will. Tune in my road work. We're gonna stay away from seasons, but we're gonna drop these as they become available. We appreciate you tuning in these years. We're gonna keep on doing this as long as we can, folks. If you're enjoying them, we're enjoying them. Can you dig it? Let's chew the gristle. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, once again, we are doing that crazy chewing the gristle thing today with an amazing guitarist and artist in general, Lyle Workman. You've heard him on everything from the soundtracks that he did for 40-year-old Virgin and Superbad. You've seen him on stage with Sting and Sarah McLaughlin, just a brilliant musician. Today, we are chewing the gristle with Lyle Workman. Come on, y'all. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, the time is gum. The time is gum. And it's so delicious and chewable. We have gathered around the gristle fire for another convivial conversation. This time with a legend. This guy is, you know, when I'm surveying his body of work, I'm a little intimidated to the point of feeling like an idiot. And then I totally screwed up on trying to get this dog on thing started today, folks. It's it's a humiliating day for Dre. But all I'm going to say is I'm here with Lyle Workman. You've heard him on countless recordings, soundtracks, but just a magnificent guitar player and cool cat. Thanks so much for taking time today to hang with us live.
SPEAKER_02I am so honored to speak with you because I am an awe of you. And I have been for so long. So it's so nice to talk to you. We spoke briefly at a NAM show, sometime I'm just gonna say, estimate in between sometime around in between three or fifty years, somewhere in that time space. We had spoken briefly, and that was it.
SPEAKER_01Well, let's talk about any we can talk about whatever we want, doggone it. This is just a impromptu uh jaw about.
SPEAKER_02I don't think jaw about is even a thing, but it is not I think that should be a good that's a title for a record right there.
Bourgeois Tag And Early Breaks
SPEAKER_01But you know, I was hanging with our mutual buddy uh Woody Mankowski the other day, and he mentioned, I was like, I've got to get Lyle on this podcast so we can shoot the breeze. And and I remember encountering you at that NAM show a few years back, and then just seeing some and hearing some amazing playing online, and then doing the deep dive. It's just like, do you ever sleep? I mean, what what the hell's going on, Lyle? You're you've you've created such a huge body of work. And um, and then what freaked me out is the whole bourgeois tag thing. It's like I I heard that song and I'm like, I totally know that song. And so so describe for us like what got you started doing what you do in terms of were you always an LA guy? Were you you were from somewhere out in California in Sacramento and then moved to LA?
SPEAKER_02What where does it starts in San Jose, California? And uh I it's kind of funny when when I tell people San Jose, it it's usually kind of a conversation stopper. I don't know what it is, like, oh, where are you from? San Jose, like it's crickets. Um, so so then I started saying, Well, I'm from the uh San Francisco Bay Area, like, oh that's the response that gets. But anyway, uh San Jose, and then um played in bands, you know, high school, stuff like that, and then joined uh Brent Bourgeois and Larry Tag for their group, Bourgeois Tag. They were based in Sacramento, and so uh in the mid-80s, I know going back, I relocated to Sacramento to be in the band. We did two records on Island. Um the last one was produced by Todd Rundgren, which was amazing. And uh yeah, we had that single that I'd wrote written with uh Brent Boujoy, the the central one of the central songwriters, and it was called I Don't Mind It All, and that was a bit of a hit. We we did the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. Yes, I think. Oh, you did? Oh my gosh. Yes, yeah, it was pretty wild. Uh you know what was interesting is is seeing the remember the Alpo dog commercials that they used that Ed used to do? Yes. Well, uh I saw why the dogs were so ravenous for the food because they would do a few takes and the trainer would put his hand down the dog's throat to make them throw up the food. Yeah. So every time the food was put down, the dog was like, oh. You know, it wouldn't uh you know reject the food, the ALPO. But yeah, that was pretty wild even doing that. So how many years ago was he? That was 19, I believe '88.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, I totally remember. Yeah, it was uh it. I mean, it was like I was like, oh my god, I totally remember. And that's a pretty fine little acoustic part on that doggone song. That is that is not to be trifled with.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was uh it was a one kind of a departure from the sound of our band because we were more about sort of funk, funk pop kind of thing. Um right, but I had this little ditty that put down on a on a cassette for Brent. You know, some other ideas that I thought more more suited for the band, but I put down this little thing and hummed a melody, and he goes, I like that one. And I said, All right. Um, and that's what so it ended up being the single, and then that got us on. We did, you know, like I said, tonight show with Johnny Carson. We did uh American Bandstand with Dick Clark, which was wild. Yeah, uh, we did Top of the Pops at that time. They had one here, but and we did the A Top of the Pops in England, and I think I remember that show was Was Not Was. Remember that band? Yeah, oh yeah, exactly. They were on that show, and what else we did? A show called The Wogan Show, which was a big kind of like Johnny Carson type track uh show in in England, and then sort of the equivalent in Germany and some other places. So it was pretty, pretty fun time.
SPEAKER_01So prior to that, what what was your your training like as uh coming up as a music? Did you go to school for music or you just kind of self-taught? What what kind of led you to?
SPEAKER_02Well, mostly self-taught. I I had gone to um a community college in Saratoga uh and just for two years and just took music classes. You know, I decided I'm not gonna I I wasn't really looking for a degree, but I just wanted to study music and had a really good teacher, a jazz improvisational teacher there. And then I studied harmony and composition and stuff like that for two years. But that's all I did. I didn't do any any of the academic stuff, so that never got me a degree. And then the band I was in started working a lot, so I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna uh it looks like I'm working.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's kind of I remember saying to my dad, he's like, You gotta get your degree. I go, listen, the degree would be in jazz guitar performance, and I don't think at some point they go, you know, you play good and all, but can I see your degree?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we've never we've never had to produce a degree for any any job we've ever done, you know. What's your job? Yeah, but uh yeah, so that's that's kind of what happened, and and things just sort of took off from there.
SPEAKER_01So once you hooked up with kind of Todd Rundgren, was that kind of like the next lung in the record?
SPEAKER_02Exactly. So he had produced our our second record, and he asked our band to be his backup band for a record he was doing. And as a matter of fact, it was after uh one of the sessions with Todd. Now, these sessions were were pretty interesting because they were all everything was done in the studio live, so there were no overdubs. We would just record. We'd go to the studio, we would learn uh a song, we would rehearse it, and then we'd record you know several takes, and we do that with I think maybe three songs, and we did it a series of days that were comprised that record. But during one the night before one of the sessions with Todd, our band Boujoy Tag broke up. So it was a little odd. You know, I I we showed up to the at the session and and I was the first one there, and I said, Todd, if you if you notice any weird vibes today, it's it's because we broke up last night. Yeah. And uh that might cause a little disturbance in the source for a while. But it was okay. You know, it was time, you know. It was fine, it was it was fine for me, particularly because you know, with bourgeois tag, I I was a bit like the George Harrison, you know, I I'd have m one song on a record kind of thing, and I just felt like there was a lot more in me. So I was ready to move on and do different things. And so what happened is uh three of us from Bourgeois Tag stayed with Todd for another few years. We did a couple years of of uh we had two records and and some touring during those time during that time. And that was just really exciting because you know, Todd Rungood, what can you say, you know? Right.
SPEAKER_01So any that point in time, did you ever get to fondle the other cream?
SPEAKER_02I'll have to send you a picture. I have a picture uh of me holding the guitar, and we were in Japan, and someone had made a a replica of that guitar and given it to Todd. So we did we played that, we played those guitars on one song. I can't remember what it was, but he let me play the one. And uh you know, it was okay.
SPEAKER_01It wasn't it was okay, you know. Right, it probably is it just was what he used at the time, and that was it, you know.
SPEAKER_02I didn't think it was a very special guitar. I mean, it it felt the the neck had you know, the whole thing was painted, you know, hand painted, but you can kind of feel it in the back of the neck, you know, the paint. It's kind of uneven and stuff, so it was a little odd. But yeah, I was just happy to hold it, man. I mean, look at the history that thing had. It was incredible.
Guitar Influences From Beatles To Jazz
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's crazy. There's there were some epic jams played on that guitar for sure. So speaking of what kind of stuff were you when you first came up? What was the stuff you were listening to and kind of inspired you? And where where were your kind of sights set on what did you want to do musically, or were you just kind of an open book like I like this, I like that.
SPEAKER_02Let's see what yeah, I think it's it's it's well, it's it's I'm sure like you, it's everything that influenced us during those formative years. You know, for me for me, it starts with the Beatles. You know, everything started with the Beatles. Um and as I was learning how to play guitar, you know, teaching myself Beatles songs and listening to stuff on the radio, now we're talking, you know, mid late 60s stuff. You know, that's that's how far back I go. Um and so in terms of guitar, you know, George Harrison, you know, and then and then like Creedus Clearwater Revival and stuff that was on the radio, but the big turning point for me was uh someone's parents, someone's parent took me and some of my friends to see the Woodstock movie. And so prior to that time, I thought a good guitar lead player was uh John Fogarty or George Harrison. You know, maybe maybe Purple Haze was, I'm sure Purple Haze was on the radio, but I I didn't hear it for some reason. So and I'm getting pretty good. You know, I've got a good ear. I'm not I'm not taking lessons or anything, but I can play some Beatles songs pretty well, you know. And uh so you go to that movie and oh my gosh, Hendrix. And I what and you know, Alvin Lee, I'm I'm going home ten years after uh Pete Townsend. Uh, you know, it's I didn't didn't know that the instrument that I was playing was capable of that. And I just remember being stunned by the whole thing. You know, I I left the theater and I was just I couldn't even speak. So then I got the record, the Woodstock record, and put it on my turntable and 16 speed, learned how to play. I'm going home, taught myself that, learned different stuff from that record. And that sort of brought me into the into the into the rock world and of where there was more, you know, uh um uh heroic or whatever you want to call it, more mu masculine, muscular guitar playing. I did I was completely transfixed. You know, Hendrix was this definitely the one, you know. That was that was right, absolutely, you know, just boy, you know, what can you say about that guy?
SPEAKER_01And also uh on I just was thinking because I I scoured that Woodstock, I had it on uh later on I'd have it on VHS tape. I'd just go over and over and over it. But the other one, too. I mean all the things you mentioned, but also the the the soul sacrifice cars. Absolutely thing on there was another one.
SPEAKER_02It's like yeah, man, all that stuff. And and uh I remember learning licks. There's on the record, it wasn't in the movie, what was uh uh Paul Butterfill's blues band with Buzzy Feedman. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I learned that he does a uh like an incredible uh solo. And I remember meeting him like decades later, and I played him the lick. I go, I stole this from you, and he goes, I don't remember that. I went, Oh, I do, I still remember it. But yeah, that was a really monumental uh you know jump from where I was as a you know beginning guitar player novice to really starting to play. And and in fact, this led to in high school, senior year, uh a friend of mine wrote in my yearbook, Lyle, you are truly the best guitarist in the district. Excellent. I was like, wow, that's a lot of high schools in this area. So anyway, you know, the best guitarist in the district. Wow. District wide. But yeah, it was yeah, again, it was all it's about Hendrickson's. And then around uh not too many years later, after that, I was still in high school, I was staying up to watch in concert. Remember that show in concert? Don Rock or Don Kirchner's Rock? Don Kirchner's Rock concert. And that was and I saw on the TV guide it was gonna be Johnny Winter, who was I was really into Johnny Winter because another record that was absolutely destroyed me was Ed Winter White Trash Roadwork with Rick Derringer. That solo on Tobacco Road, man. Come on. Yep. So so I so I was way into Johnny Winter, Rick Derringer. And Mavish knew who was gonna be on that night as well. So that was another that was the next big jump. Like, what? What's this guy? He's got his hair is short. What the hell's what that's what's that about? He's wearing you know, he's got the white you know, guru outfit, and he's got the double neck. And was another one one of those moments where I just what what's happening? What that guitar can do that. So then I got got me into the whole fusion world, which led to you know, Mohavishnu and and uh Focus, John Ackerman was huge for you know focus, pocus, and and all those records. And eventually from the fusion, you know, yeah, yes, and Genesis, progressive rock, and then well, why are these guys talking about the jazz guys? You know, what's that all about? So then then you discover you know, Wes Montgomery and Charlie Christian and Django Reinhardt was another big big guy I got into. So it's all you know, it's the music of the day that leads you to the stuff that inspired that music. And so yeah, I'm sure a lot of this is right in line with what you're doing. Absolutely.
Moving To LA With Frank Black
SPEAKER_01Music to my ears. So when did you end up? So after you get done with bourgeois tag and you're and you're hanging out with Todd Rundgren, at one point are you in LA kind of establishing a foothold there?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, so Todd Rundgren, so now going back to 19, the early 1990s, uh, after the Todd thing was over. I my I guess the next biggest gig I did was with this uh songwriter, Charles Thompson, known as Frank Black or Black Francis from the Pixies. And so he uh I started playing with him, and and that led to about five years of touring and records. And he was based in LA, and I was living in Marin County at the time, but I just wasn't doing anything in Marin Marin County other than being in his band and touring. So my wife and I moved down to Los Angeles in 1996, and so that's that's what brought me to LA. And uh, you know, the greatest thing ever, because it led to all kinds of opportunities, meeting more musicians and uh event the studio work and eventually soundtrack work and film scoring. I'm kind of condensing everything very quickly in one sentence, but that's the thumbnail.
From Commercials To Film Scoring
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's crazy the amount of stuff that you've done in that regard. So how did I'm sure it's like anything. It's like you know, you're you're hanging out one day with one guy's hey, you ever done this? And next thing you know, you're you're you're doing something you didn't originally plan. I mean, was was like the whole soundtrack thing. I mean, I'm sure it was something you would like, oh, that'd be cool, but was it something you kind of were thinking, like, one day I'd like to do that, or was it just kind of the ladder.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I'd never had any and designs on being a a film composer. But what had happened is one of the things I was doing when I when I first moved down to LA is I met this musician um who uh was writing music for commercials, and he worked, he was doing stuff for an agency, and so they they had me as a uh this is a as a session musician coming in and playing on their jingles, but they knew that I'd written a song, I had written that song I don't mind at all. And so, well, you write music. Would you like to try to write write music for some of these commercials? You know, an agency would would get awarded the a job to like Nike or Reebok or something, and then the agency would have three or four guys within that agency to demo stuff up and in the hopes of getting the the job. And so I'd done that and and got some of those jobs. So I did a a uh Nike ad and I did a like a Cadillac thing and some few other things. So that was my first experience of writing music to pitcher. And uh then the next step was I would worked with a producer, uh uh a Bay Area producer, Matt Wallace, who had who did Faith No More, you know, their big record, and he he lived in LA.
SPEAKER_01I met I did a thing with Matt with uh with uh Willie Porter, he's gonna be amazing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he's he's he's amazing. He's great, great guy, hilarious. And so um he hired me to uh as be to be a session player for uh a band that needed a guitar player, and one of the the central songwriters of that band was really good friends with John John Favreau and Vince Vaughn. They asked their buddy to to score an independent film, and I had worked with this this this musician. I brought him in to do some stuff with me for some of these jingles because he was really good at programming drums and stuff like that that I didn't really do. So when they asked him to do their movie, he thought, well, maybe I should pair with someone that's got some other skills that's a little bit more outside of or could be in addition to what he did. So he asked me to do it, and so that was my first movie score. And it was a movie called Maid. It was after uh Swingers was was John's first one. And then the next one's called Maid. So I'd done one movie, so I had that under my belt. And uh a few years after that, I had been working with a film composer, again as a session musician, and he called me one day and he said that uh his wife, who was an executive at Universal Pictures, she called, she called her husband and said, Ed, uh Ed Shermer is the composer's name, and said, uh Harry here, uh vice president of music, needs some guitar work for a personal project. And so Ed put me in touch with this with this uh executive at Universal Pictures. Next thing I know, the guys in my studio they basically do him a favor. But knowing that he was going to be here, I put a CD together in advance of some of the uh stuff I'd done in jingles and some instrumental music I'd written. Um because that by by then I'd already done written made a few instrumental records. So I just kind of piled together, compiled some music and put it on a CD and sent it off with this guy. And he he called me back, goes, Man, I really like what you what you do, and I've got this movie. Would you like to uh uh uh submit some additional music? And so I did that. And that was a movie called Kicking and Screaming with uh um Will Farrell and Will Farrell.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a soccer movie, and and Mike, yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02And Robert Duvall, who just um unfortunately just passed away. So I got my music in that, but one of the producers was Judd Apatow. And so right around that time, Judd signed a directorial deal with uh Universal, and uh the uh Universal executive jambied me for this for his movie, and and uh I got a couple scenes, I demoed them, and I got the job, and and that first movie was 40 year old virgin. So that movie was two weeks number one. And like everyone's like, Well, who's this guy? You know, who's the wild workman? Because I didn't have an agent at all. And I actually tried to get an agent after made that move, but no one would speak to me. But after 40-year-old virgin, after I signed that deal with them to do that, every agency in uh Los Angeles wanted to sign. Of course, because they're working out. Exactly. They they they wanted their cut. And so that that I did that movie, and that was followed up by Super Bad, which was also two weeks number one. So I basically jumped a lot of steps to be in that world. And that that launched my career as a film composer.
SPEAKER_01Well, if you don't mind talking about a little bit of the about the business side of that whole thing, because you know, I remember, you know, back in the day, you know, the jingle thing was great because you'd get like a session fee, but then you'd get residuals uh every time it played. And if it was a national commercial, I mean it could be it could be some juicy currency. And so I would imagine with movies, is it is it like a lot of times when you're breaking in, is it a work-for-hire thing, or is there always kind of a back end thing, or does it it always kind of fluctuate?
SPEAKER_02Um it's it there's always black back end, and luckily for me, I got in in a timeline that was really good to be a converser because it was it was all basically fee deals where you get a chunk of money. Uh you know, in the case of um For You Virgin, you know, it was a it was a big movie with a$20 million budget and a very healthy fee deal. Like I could not believe the amount of money I was making, and it was just m money just for my fee, and then they paid for everything else, all the expenses, studio.
SPEAKER_01So that's so that was just like here's some dough, and then we'll pay to make it all as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that that's kind of gone away for the most part. Most nowadays it's just here's a chunk of money, you have to pay for everything. Uh you know, unless you're Danny Elfman or you know John Williams or they have I'm sure they still get fee deals. But um, but yeah, there's always back end, you know, you they take publishing, but you you get your writers. And uh and uh for movies that are big you know, it's it's anytime it's on TV or it's it's you get you get money for that. So I st you get some ass based on the success of of them all you know, all the movies combined that I've done have made over a billion dollars at the box office. You know, and so it's it's still they're still playing on on HBO and all those streaming networks. So I I still uh still good a good chunk of my income is still residuals, I have to say. You know, so that's that's been really good and has really it based really changed our lives completely, you know, that that world. Um and I and I still do it, you know, it's not like it used to be. I don't have this the same amount of work, but um there was a good 10 years of of not only movies but movie and TV, and uh to where I had uh you know assistance and even a couple people helping out with some of the writing, you know, because it was just too much work. If you never say no, you never turn it down because you're too busy. You find out a way to do it, you know, figure out a way to do it. Right. Even if you have to bring in help.
SPEAKER_01Well, let's talk out, if you don't mind, a little bit about your session stuff. As a session guitarist, you know, I've talked to a few people about this, about you know, there's the sessions where they hire you because, you know, they want there's there's a lot of different stuff that has to be site read with greater plum. And then there's other types there they hire you because they do they just want you to paint colors and the charts are very, you know, you know, the name of the chord and and and a couple of hash marks for the for the 4-4 time. Maybe some kicks are are are um are transcribed, maybe uh a line here and there. For the vast majority of your session work, were you like a unbelievable sight reader, or was it more you were a color guy brought in to add parts to things that were just kind of sketched off?
SPEAKER_02Or was that a bit about the last thing you said 90% of the time, because these are these are records and people just want want me to participate on the record, and and we're not dealing with people writing dots on pages generally. But I did study, you know, when I went to school, I studied how to I learned how to read uh music. So I do read and and I do would do dates with film composers that would have the dots on the page, and and I would usually just say, can I see it in advance, please? Because I want to because I'm I can read, but I'm not super fast at it. So I would make sure that I could do it and and and at at a certain point uh I was getting more of that work, but I didn't really enjoy it because it was too much, too much. I mean, to do a a a uh a date with an orchestra and dots on a page, I just I I wasn't really enjoying that that much. So I would just say, yeah, maybe you know, just give me the music in advance, or if you don't can't do that, then just hire someone else. So that I did more of that work back in the day, but not not really any anymore. Every now and again I'll I'll get I'll I'll get that.
SPEAKER_01But um I just I just was thinking of a story. I remember um uh did you ever hang out with uh Paul Barrera at all from little feed? Okay. Well, yeah I got to be friendly with him, and you know, just we'd I'd sit in with the band every now and again. He was he was a good he was a good buddy. Anyway, so he was telling me about it's like, yeah, every now and again I'd get hired to do sessions, and me and Fred Tackett would go and do sessions, and he was I couldn't write any music at all. And we'd get to a part, he'd get to a part in the chart where it said tacit, and I thought they just misspelled Tackett, and that was where he was oh, that's hilarious.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god. Wow.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, I you know it's always interesting because I I don't know about you when you were younger, but you know, especially the music school types, you know, the teachers would be like, your sight reading has if you're going to be a musician, your sight reading has to be so good that when you go into a session, you know, they're not gonna play it once through to make sure you can play it, they're gonna play it once through to make sure the notes on the page are written correctly. And you're like, oh my god, if I ever get a session, I'm gonna be shitting in my bands. And then I remember going in and just like, yeah, it wasn't quite that. Yeah, exactly. Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, if I think for us, we wanted to, I wanted to be in bands. I wanted to play, you know, in a band, I wanted to play my guitar. And I that wasn't really exactly, you know, learning how to read dots on the page wasn't a prerequisite for that, you know. I mean, all the people we listened to, they weren't reasoning, they weren't doing that. So we I right, but uh you know, but nowadays I do tell people if you want a career in music, you better learn how to read. Because uh it's just so hard to to make a living as a musician. So you you know, you you gotta do your own thing, or uh if you want to get money every week, you to do your own thing or or work with film composers, the guys who are doing music for TV or jingles. You know, that's you can do that. And the guys that you know, the few in LA that work all the time are you know the handful of guys that that are George Deering's and Andrew Sinnewick is in the younger generation, he's an amazing guitar player. Who you do you know Andrew Sinniwick by any chance? Oh, I don't have to turn you on to him. He's he's amazing, and he's he's a great reader and and and does a lot of that kind of work. So he stays busy because he because he can read his ass off, but he's a wicked player too, so you know that's he's got it all. But uh awesome. Yeah, so you know, I I tell people you want to be be an artist, or but if if you're really if really not that kind of person, then if you just want to provide a service as a guitar player, it really helps to learn how to read.
Home Studio Evolution And Gear Choices
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Uh how about your your studio chops when you first started doing all this stuff? Were you were you hip to all that stuff? You had to learn on the fly? Do you do a lot of that stuff on your own?
SPEAKER_02Uh ever since I was young, um I had a little tape recorder. So if it was a little real to real, just recording myself playing guitar or uh trying to learn things, I always had some sort of form of technology. And so that that just kept growing from a little real to real mono thing to uh what was the first thing I I got? Uh trying to remember now. Some oh, I had a uh TAC for uh 3340 real to real. Remember those? It had you wait for it, wait for it. Sound on sound. Yeah, sound on sound. So you could record on one track, and then you had four tracks, and you can overdub. And so I had one of those when I was, I don't know, 18 years old or something. And so, and it just got more involved because I like to record myself. I like to write little instrumental things, and that led to uh an eight-track, that led to a 16-track, that led to ADAS, that led to DA88s, that led to uh eventually to Pro Tools. So I've always had I've always been a way had a way to record myself, which has been great because I've wanted to record my own stuff. Um and that's that's basically it was all out of need, you know. I had to need the need for it. It wasn't never, it was never I have to learn how to do this. It was how do I get to record my own music? Well, I guess I've get better get a tape recorder. Right, right. And as my needs expanded, uh, so did the gear sure.
SPEAKER_01And are you obsessed with it, like always on mic quest and you know what I mean? Always getting the new discombobulator and so on.
SPEAKER_02Not anymore. No, no, it's just because after a while that just tires you out and just it it just robs you of all your expenses. Right. Any money you have is just gonna go to a mic. It's I uh you know, maybe 10 years ago. I up to 10 years ago, I was looking at stuff, but I I don't mess with it anymore. I I have enough stuff to do all the things I would ever want to do in music.
SPEAKER_01It's fun to get to that point where like I really don't need any of the stuff to do the thing I really want to do, which is just to make music, not to be plagued by I need this next thing. Of course, with guitars, though, that's always an issue because you may go for a little drought for a while, but then there's gonna be something that's gonna trip your trigger. Like right now, there's this 1959 uh telecaster, it's a it's a refin that I I'm obsessed with. So after we get done with our little interview, I'm going to be uh robbing Peter to pay Paul to get that thing. But I remember I saw a thing with you with your 63 strat, and it freaked me out because I had a guitar exactly like that. And there's even a there was even a decal. And when you were playing, I was like, oh my god, is that my old guitar? Because there was literally a decal in the same place. But mine was uh a gal who was um she instead of a cowgirl, it was it was uh uh it's like an um a snow vixen. She was kind of but it was the same, it's the same color, the stickers in the same spot. But I sold that guitar, and so when I saw that, I was like, oh my god, I think that's my guitar. And then I saw the sticker better. I'm like, that's weird because it's a it's a similar sticker, but it's a it's a gal like dressed up in winter regalia and she's kind of uh leaning back, but it's in the same exact place. It's crazy, same type of sticker.
SPEAKER_02Was it the same color though? Sonicson.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's like a sonic blue. It was a real big so is mine, but it was yeah, where where is it?
SPEAKER_02Uh you want to see it up close? Okay, yeah, it's around here somewhere. I'll be right back.
SPEAKER_01Matter of fact, maybe I can find here she be. Can you see it? Yeah. That is so weird. It's literally the it's it's this the the stickers from the same company, but it's just instead of a cowgirl, it's uh it's like a snow lexicon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this yeah, this was exactly how I bought it. I bought it. It was a little vintage store in Campbell, California. I was on tour with Beck at the time. This is uh nine, this is I say the year 2000.
SPEAKER_03The year 2000, year 2000.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's uh Refan 63. And uh I fell in love with it. It was actually in a can uh underneath a glass case. Um and it wasn't for sale, and I I talked the guy into it because I played him and oh, I have to have this guitar, and I remember it was expensive. I thought it was expensive at that time, it w it was, it was like three thousand dollars. Right, yeah, can you imagine it's all there, um except the refin and the decal. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. I sp I'm supposed it's been re-re-fretted at some point.
SPEAKER_02No, no, yeah. The frets are kind of low, but I've just learned to live with it. Yeah, awesome. It's a great sounding guitar.
SPEAKER_01Is that still your your main your main weapon of destruction?
SPEAKER_02No, uh more of a teleplayer these days. Uh yeah. Yeah, I had uh Fender approached me. They wanted to build me a custom telecaster. And uh that's that's this guy right here, which is uh it's a beautiful thin line, but it's got the contours of a strat. It's got the the belly uh cut and the arm contour. Uh they made me two of them, which blew my mind. And so one of them after the fact uh put in a Vega trim. And these are DC90 Lawler pickups, which are really great. They're quiet and they're they sound amazing. They're quiet more quiet than humbuckings, at least the ones humbuckers I have. Nice. And so the other the other thin line I have is uh the ones that the one that they made of the two. It just has the the standard wide-range humbuckers in it.
SPEAKER_01I see you've got a veritable plethora of juicy tube amplification bike uh devices back there. I see a Tone King Imperial, I see a Marshall, I see some divided by 13s. I have a comment uh Concord over that, which is an amazing amp.
SPEAKER_02And you know, the funny thing though, Greg, is that the last couple tours I I've done, well, one was with Sarah McLaughlin and uh another one was uh Frank Black. These are over the last couple years, both were 30-year anniversary record tours, right? Uh Sarah's, I did not participate in 30 years ago, but the Frank Black one I did play on. And for both tours, I I went direct, man. Tonex. Yeah, in-ears, tonex with uh Amalgam audio uh captures, tone, tone uh amp captures. And with the Tone King Imperial X, exactly. That's exactly the capture I used for both those those tours. So I was so intrigued with the sound of the capture that I went and got the amp. I found a used one. But I wanted to ask you about the the Royalists, because I know that's what you Yes, is that what you're playing these days live? That is, that's what I gig with. Yeah, I gotta check it out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's more it's more of a marshall thing than uh the Imperial course is more like uh like a deluxe reverb souped up. Whereas the the Royalist, um, you know, it's two-channel and it's got attenuated supporting. Exactly. And uh so I when I'm gigging live, I I use it kind of on the GTM 45-ish setting, and I keep the the the master down kind of low, so it's just starting to give a little bit, and then I goose it with the pedals. But by the same token, if I'm in the studio, I'll crank that some bitch up and it sounds glorious. I mean, it would it'd it'd be a cool amp if I wasn't using pedals and and I just wanted to go out to a gig and kind of go back and forth between like a clean sound or a lead sound, or even just kind of setting it on the lead sound and just turning the volume down like you did with old Marshalls and having it's it's good for all of the above at any volume. And it at 40 watts, I mean the Imperial for me with my band, especially with my son and with Toby, you know, we're we're playing at pretty loud volumes, and the the Imperial is just not enough. So the Royalist, you know, even though it's 40 watts, it's a loud 40 watts.
SPEAKER_02So it it does. Okay.
SPEAKER_01And so you are using the game, you're using the lead channel for your solo stuff, and just I get no, actually, when I when I get when I in the studio I will, but when I play live, I just use the amp clean and kick it with the ball.
SPEAKER_02But why is that? Because you've got those two channels and the attenuators.
SPEAKER_01Is there well it does it I I like to use a little bit of delay. Oh, okay. It just I and it doesn't have an effects loop, but I never I never was into messing around with effects loops anyway. So um I just you know, and I've messed with it both ways, but so I've just found for consistency's sake, I just set it kind of cleaning and kicking over with the pedals, and I don't have to worry about all that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02You know the power station? Are you familiar with the power station? I don't know if you can see it. The the Fryet Power Station. Oh, well, that's an incredible device. I don't see if it's unplugged, I can show it to you. Yeah, I'm gonna show it to you. So this this handy device right here, it's so basically this you plug your amp, you know, the the amp out that would normally go to the speaker into this thing, right? And then the speak out of this thing, you go to the speaker. So this is like it this is in between the amp and the speaker, and it's got an effects loop. So basically you're getting all the distortion from your amp, and then you've got an effects loop in this thing. So you put all your delays and all that fun stuff that you wouldn't want to put the and then it's got some other controls, it's got a volume, it's got a presence, a depth control for for it's got a couple of the tonal uh things that you can adjust. Uh and so you can get the loudest martial that you have at any at any level, and then you can have an effects in it. It's it's a brilliant device, man. I I really recommend it because it brings a lot more flexibility. Two amps that are aren't really necessarily that flexible. That's a good thing to check out for you know if you ever wanted to explore, because then you could again be as loud as you want with any amp, and have your effects have your effects whatever wherever you want it.
SPEAKER_01Love it. So you've you've got so many different records out under your own name, but you've got a brand new one out, or at least 2025. Uh, I forget that it's already 2026, and it's called Rhythm and Leeds Guitar.
Meta Library Music And 257 Songs
SPEAKER_02What's the funny story about that? It's kind of a goofy name for for a uh a record, but that the picture on the on the cover, you know, the the whatever, one by one inch, not even that, if you look on it online, is uh a picture of me and my friends playing guitar in front of one of my friends' house. I grew up kind of a uh lower middle class kind of scenario, and all my friends were were Mexicans, you know, and so we played Beat songs, and this is a picture of of my friends, you know, Pedro and and Jesse and Fernando and me, this white kid with red hair. And you know, people asked me, so do you play, you know what, remember, do you play guitar? Oh, do you play rhythm or lead? I play rhythm and leads. So I so I not just one lead. I could play keep on shoogling, the solo of that, Proud Mary. I can name, I could probably name maybe five or ten solos I can do. Leads. So yeah, rhythm and leads guitar. That was a bit of a tongue in cheek title. Uh and now about all those records in about 10 years ago, some friends of mine um who had hired me to do some sound alikes for their company. Their company was called Wave Group Sound, and they provided sound alike for uh a game called Karaoke Karaoke Revolution. And Guitar Hero and uh rock band. And so when they first started, it was all about doing sound aliks. And then eventually they were uh like these big these could be big video game companies got so much money that they were just licensed masters, so that part of their job went away. But they were doing this company Rave Group, we were they were doing um sound design stuff for like when you turn a turn on a speaker, jawbone, or one of those uh Bluetooth speakers were so they would they did a lot of that kind of stuff too. So after um after that, they whole company got uh bought out by or absorbed into Facebook or or Meta as it's called now. And so my my my two friends started uh what they call the Facebook Sound Collection, which is essentially just library music for anyone that's on Instagram or Facebook could use uh all these songs for free charge. So they had me, uh they hired me to be one of the content creators, and so between that time and now I have written 257 songs. Good luck. Yeah, and the great thing about it is it's interesting to talk about because when I when I say it's library music, people get the idea of that, oh, it's it's like elevator music or on hold music or whatever it is, right? Right. But they um Will Littlejohn, he's the of the of the the the couples, Will and Leslie. Will was in a band that opened up for bourgeois tag, so he was he's been familiar with my work all along. And so he goes, I know you can do lots of different things, Lyle. So just do whatever you do. There's all kinds of people on Instagram and Facebook. It that they don't have to be hit singles, they could be anything you want, all instrumental. Right. And in 2020, this they said uh Meadow Facebook, we're gonna let all our content creators, if they want, you can release this music uh on all the streamers. So in 2020, I released 18 records of curated material from those from that 200 odd songs. Sure. And so a lot of those records that you see uh you will see on Apple Music or Spotify, it's all from that program. But okay, uh including the rhythm and leads, all that stuff was was written for that program. But if you listen to it, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't sound like library music by any by any music. It really is kind of a cheat. So it's been a really amazing uh way. It's like uh basically having a uh a patron of the arts just saying, I really like what you do. We're just gonna give you money to do what you do, and you know, over 10 years' time, you know, or eight around that amount of time. So it's been fantastic having that program, you know, on top of everything else I was doing. So that that really explains the prolific nature of having this, these, these jobs kind of collide all together at the same time.
SPEAKER_01Love it. So what kind of what does a day look like for you this day these days? I mean, what kind of what's your day-to-day kind of uh life as a musician these days?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh one thing that I had never done up until fairly recently is I've never done basically what you're doing, or a lot of people do, which is go out and play their own music. So it's it's my work is is generally been in service of other people as a side man, a composer, whatever. But I have all this music that I've written. Like, well, why why how come I'm not out playing this music? So I've just embraced that recently, and and I have uh doing a show at the baked potato on uh in March and another one at another place in San Fe group, uh San Pedro. Um in the same month. So I'm just doing that. That's kind of what I'm doing now. The the scoring has slowed down quite a bit for me, and session work is is less too. So I still do it from time to time, but now I'm just concentrating on just doing what I do, which has been really rewarding, you know, playing playing my own music. Yeah, absolutely. It's a beautiful yeah, I mean you're you're doing it, man. You've been doing it for a long time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, it's uh well, it's been a lot of fun with this thing with my song basically, you know. Incredible.
SPEAKER_01And um it's uh it's just uh it's just a lot of fun, as you said. When you get to play your own music and you know, and people come out and they want to hear it, and you know, you don't have to worry about um, you know, oh uh what are we gonna have to play tonight in order to go over? You know, we just play our shit. Okay, yeah, it's beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Do you ever do any double built double build scenarios with your band in another band? Or absolutely, yeah. Well, if you need if you need an opener, man, I'm all here. I'm I'm here for you.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that'd be awesome. Man, that would be incredible. Now, how'd you meet our buddy Woody? Were you doing a session with him? Or did you think that's what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_02I met Woody threw uh there's a guy in town. His nickname is Scroat. His real name is I love it already. He's kind of a musical pipe piper. He puts together these uh uh sort of tribute concerts, and so he put together a David Bowie tribute thing, and with a bunch of local musicians, and Woody was one of one of those people. And and uh We did uh a Peter Gabriel tribute, um that I that I yeah, I I I spoke to Screw. I said, can we do like a Peter Gabriel one? Because we'd done a Bert Backerack, Bert Backerak one, and we did a uh what was the other one? Uh can't remember. It was a few of them, but I wanted to do a David Bowie, uh uh sorry, uh Peter Gabriel one and he said I gotta know this guy named Woody. I said, Let's bring him in. And he freaking floored me, man. He just yeah, he he came on the skig and he just knew all the words, he knew everything. And and in fact, I've we recorded one of our shows and I've mixed mixed them and made videos, and they're online. It's called Celebrating or Saluting Peter Gabriel. And so there's there's several songs, maybe five or six songs with Woody. We had one song with Colin Hay from Minute Work singer track and oh yeah, uh a couple other people. But yeah, Woody is just uh what can I say, man? He's just uh he's amazing musician and incredibly human being, and and uh what a singer and player, and just yeah, so he told me his whole his whole history with you. That's so amazing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. We go back quite a ways. That's great. To when we were we're mad. So crazy. It's a crazy small world.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what it's like the music community. Yeah, you end up beating maybe not everyone, but close to it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So, I mean, are there are there musicians you'd like to work with that you haven't yet? Is there are some things, Brewing, with some collaborations that uh uh are kind of fulfilling some dreams that you've had in terms of working with some folks, anything like that, Brewing?
The Sting Audition And Live 8
SPEAKER_02Uh well I would just certainly people I would like to work with. I would love to to do anything for Peter Gabriel. Yeah, just to me he's like the the the gold standard. I mean, I I got my for me it was for the longest time, it was Peter Gabriel and Sting. And luckily I've got to do one of those. It's that tour of the Sting in in uh 2000. And how was that? Oh incredible. In fact, the whole that whole story was pretty wild because I had I went to Guitar Center and I ran into Josh Freese, the drummer. And so Josh said, Hey man, I you never guess what I'm gonna be doing because I'm I'm gonna be playing with Sting. Oh my god. Yeah, to me the police was was huge. In fact, I was in a three-piece band, uh, and we did a lot of police songs, you know, when I was 20 years old, 19. Yeah, so much. So great. And so he he and I said, What tell me about the band? Because it's it's really cool. It's actually gonna be a four-piece band. Like it's kind of like the police with another guitar player with an extra guitar player. And I went, oh, and I went, oh, and you know how much I love the police. He goes, Yeah, I know I know, I know, I know. You'd love to do this gig. And and so, and I said that that was kind of the end. I go, well, great. So he went off and did uh uh some touring with Sting in that four-piece uh setup, and he and he called me one day. He goes, Lyle, do you have some some you have some time to talk? I went, shut up. Because if somehow I just I just had a feeling that's why he was calling me. Right. And sure enough, he said, Yeah, we're just looking at getting a different guitar player. And uh, you know, I I know that you're you'd be into it, and and and as a matter of fact, I already gave your number to Sting's manager, and she's probably gonna be calling you and just you know, while we're on the phone, I call waiting, and I see a 212 number. I went, oh shit, that's probably her. So she talked to me and said, Would Sting would like to hear you play? And we're gonna be in New York. Would could you come out and play? You know, do a like a you know, an audition. And she said, when it was, and now at that exact time, I was working on 40-year-old virgin and we were getting towards the end. So deadlines were looming. And I was like, Right, oh, okay, well, uh, yeah, I'll I'll have to check with my current situation to see if I can go to New York for a a day or two to do this. So I got the okay, which was cool, and um went to do the audition, which was pretty wild. It was at SIR, and they'd sent me uh uh a couple songs to learn and and in preparation for the audition. It was uh message in a bottle, uh like something like driven to tears. I mean, stuff I knew that I even played, you know, uh many, many, many years ago. So we played four or you know, four or five songs, and uh it was pretty funny because we it went pretty well, and I thought it went great. And and Sting said, Well, you want to play? What would you like to play? And I said, anything. I'm somewhat familiar with your catalog. And he laughed, and so we played a few more police songs and a couple sing songs, sting songs that I actually knew. And uh I I I it's okay. Well, Sting said we sat down because we got a couple other people, and it was you know in fairness. We love we love what you did, but fairness, I have to see some of these other people we have scheduled. And I said, That's no fucking good. I like that. So I was kind of on cloud nine, and I'm just like, I got I want this, I wanted it so bad because again, it's he's the top of the heap for me, you know, in terms of playing pop music. Oh, absolutely. And uh so um, in fact, that night I went out, went uh met with a friend of mine, and we went to go see Oz Noy play. So that was the first time meeting Oz and getting my mind blown over that monster of a player. So as the next day, the plane is taxing into the runway at LAX, and I open up my phone and I see a voice message from 212. I'm like, oh my gosh, I just couldn't wait to to call, to call the number. So as it's still taxing, I'm I call and it's the manager, and and she says, Sting is wondering whether you would be able to play this show. It's gonna be called Live Uh 8, which is kind of like a live aid, but for for that time, you know, it was 2004. And I said, Well, yes, yes, of course, of course. What what what's what would be this the time scenario? She says, Well, it'd probably take about a week because between rehearsals and the doing the show, and I'm thinking, oh my God. This is right when I'm finishing this movie. Right. Director's not gonna let me go for a week in them, you know, as we're approaching the runway. And I'm thought, and I'm just like, I couldn't barely sleep that night because I knew I was gonna see Judd and uh Judd Apatow the next morning. Um and so I go in there and I'm talking to the music supervisor and the music uh and the film editor, and I explain the situation. I said, Well, congratulations, but I don't think so, Lyle. I mean, we've got this, we've got a uh an audience preview coming up. And so Judd walks in and says, Hey Lyle, how'd it go? And I went, well, it went really well. And in fact, he told them the whole story, and they want me to be gone for this this time, and and he goes, Well, uh, I I got I'd really love to do it if it's any possible way, you know, without hurting this thing. And so he looks at the colander and he goes, Yeah, we'll make it work. Anyway, so for this first cue, I'm thinking, you know, and so he goes right into business, and I'm just exploding inside because I'm thinking he's not gonna let me do this, because basically, from the from from what the music editor and and and uh film editor said, right that I don't think so. And so I was just on freaking cloud nine, you know. So that and that, and I'm doing the show, and you know, backstage, and there's Paul McCartney, and there's uh Elton John walks up to me and talking to his good bass player, and uh you know the Who sitting on the side of the stage watching the Who play. Yeah, so it was just one of the most exciting times of my life. Yeah, it was great. So I And so how long did you do that? Two years, it's mostly a major tour and some one-offs. Um so yeah, very exciting time.
SPEAKER_01That's uh that's not small. Yeah, that's a huge movie.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a movie that while we then the tour I did with Sting during that summer was after was right when the movie came out, and it was you know, two weeks number one, like I mentioned, and you know, he's toasting me. Congratulations. And I'm like, wow, how did I get here? You know. I I'm just I'm just kidding, I'm just a kid from San Jose. Crickets. San Jose, that was a Freddie King song. A Freddie King song, was it? Um, Dion Warwick one.
Closing Thanks
SPEAKER_01Do you know the way to San Jose? Yes. Yes, indeed. Well, listen, my friend, thanks so much for taking some time to talk. This has been absolutely fascinating. I'm so glad we got a chance to to hang, albeit vertical.
SPEAKER_02I feel like I have a bunch of questions to ask you, but maybe we'll just have to do that separately. Or I mean, I'm just I'm really I'm just so blown away over your over your musicianship and your and your playing and your your singing and everything. Oh, it really is so much. I saw you at a NAM show, I don't know, 10 to 50 years ago. And you were so you were so amazing on the guitar, and of course, your humor is just you know, I've just geeked out over so many of your your videos and and uh yeah, so it really is a delight and honor to speak with you. Um it's a pleasure, totally.
SPEAKER_01Well, likewise, my friend. And hopefully when I'm out in California next time, I don't know when that is. I'm I'm due for a trip out there, and uh we'll see what happens towards the end of the year. Hopefully, I'll find my way out there. But um in the meantime, the road calls elsewhere. The gristle missile will be loaded up and we'll be dropping.
SPEAKER_02I've got to come and see you play when you play in the area, or even if it's San Diego. I'm I'd I'm I'd drive a few hours to see you.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Well, I'll keep you. Thank you, Greg. All right, my friend, take it easy. I'll I'll keep you uh prize too as to when this airs and probably a few weeks. Excellent. I'm in road to Google. Bye-bye, thank you. Thanks once again to our friends at Fishman and to all you for checking out our show, which we call Chewing the Gristle. We're gonna keep on, keeping on. See you soon.
