433 Negotiating Without Games: The Four Levers That Create Trust and Higher Deal Value With Todd Caponi

Negotiation and sales are often treated as tactical skills. Something leaders do at the end of the process, armed with tricks, pressure, and leverage. In this conversation, Todd Caponi makes the case that this mindset is outdated—and increasingly damaging for leaders operating in a world of transparency, information abundance, and long-term accountability.

Todd draws on his experience as a former Chief Revenue Officer, his deep study of the history of sales and negotiation, and his latest book, Four Levers Negotiating: The Simple, Counterintuitive Way to Higher Deal Values and Lasting Trust, to challenge conventional wisdom about how deals actually get done. His core argument is simple but provocative: people don’t make decisions because they’re convinced. They decide when they can predict outcomes. And most leadership behaviors unintentionally undermine that predictability.

The conversation explores why traditional negotiation tactics—holding cards close, creating artificial urgency, treating the deal as the finish line—erode trust precisely when it matters most. Todd explains how many of these practices emerged from a very different economic era and why they fail in today’s interconnected, reputation-driven environment.

At the center of the discussion is Todd’s Four Levers framework, which reframes negotiation as a leadership system rather than a personality trait. Instead of games and pressure, the framework focuses on transparency, trade-offs, and shared understanding—creating better decisions for both sides and reducing internal friction across leadership teams.

This episode is not about becoming a better negotiator in the traditional sense. It’s about how leaders create trust, predictability, and long-term value—whether they are working with customers, boards, partners, or their own leadership teams.

Actionable Takeaways

• You’ll learn why leaders don’t win decisions by persuading harder—but by helping others predict outcomes more clearly.
• Hear how treating the deal as an “early milestone,” rather than the finish line, changes how leaders approach trust and accountability.
• Discover why many pricing and negotiation conflicts inside organizations have less to do with money and more to do with unclear decision logic.
• Learn how Todd’s Four Levers framework creates flexibility without sacrificing consistency or trust.
• Hear why fake urgency and short-term pressure often backfire, even when they appear to work in the moment.
• Explore how transparency speeds up the right decisions while quickly ending the wrong ones.
• Understand why predictability is an undervalued leadership asset—and how it affects forecasting, resourcing, and alignment.
• Learn how sharing constraints, rather than hiding them, can turn resistance into partnership.

Connect with Todd Caponi

Todd Caponi Website

Todd Caponi LinkedIn

Four Levers Negotiating: The Simple, Counterintuitive Way to Higher Deal Values and Lasting Trust 

Connect with Mahan Tavakoli:

Mahan Tavakoli Website 

Mahan Tavakoli on LinkedIn 

Partnering Leadership Website

Transcript

***DISCLAIMER: Please note that the following AI-generated transcript may not be 100% accurate and could contain misspellings or errors.***

Mahan Tavakoli: . [00:00:00] Todd Caponi, welcome to Partnering Leadership. I am thrilled to have you in this conversation with me.

Todd Caponi: Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it too.

Mahan Tavakoli: Todd can't wait to learn more about for levers, negotiating the simple, counterintuitive way to higher deal values and lasting trust. Before we get to that, Todd, we'd love to know a little bit more about you, whereabouts you grew up, and how your upbringing helped contribute to who you've become.

Todd Caponi: Yeah, it's funny. I grew up in a household where my father was always in sales and sales leadership. It was back in the time when it was the two martini lunches and that sort of thing. I don't know. My dad always had such a great mood on and seemed to really enjoy what he did.

But back then, this is the 1990s, 1980s, sales still didn't have that positive connotation. But I remember I went to Indiana University, I was studying marketing, and I remember a woman came in from the local newspaper, the [00:01:00] Indiana Daily student, so the university newspaper, and she was like, Hey, we're hiring salespeople to sell ads.

And I was thinking I should get a job. I don't wanna work at Taco Bell or something like, I'm gonna go apply for that, and I got it. And as much as I was not like sales oriented at the time, I found that I was inspired by it. Like I enjoyed going out and talking to people and meeting people and building relationships.

As I graduated from college, I got into sales because it's like by default it was not on purpose. I found over time though, that I loved the relationship part of it. But the rest of it just didn't feel right to me. The things that leaders were driving me to do 50 calls a day and, oh, you've got 101 fever today, rub some dirt in it, get to work, right?

Like that. That whole thing. You mentioned the new book, four Levers. Negotiating, like Negotiating always felt gross to me. Cold calling people felt [00:02:00] gross to me, but I'd always had a bit of a bent towards a couple of things. Number one is. I've always found it interesting, the decision in behavioral science of how we as human beings just engage and prioritize and then trigger purchase decisions that if we use it for good, not evil, we can apply to so much.

And I also got into this kind of passion for leadership and helping other people see the light now. I know you're gonna ask me about this. I know most people are only listening and not watching, but behind me, in my office, I've built a bit of a museum to the history of the sales profession. So there's books, magazines, old phones.

It smells a little bit like the corner of your grandmother's basement in here. But I've also developed a real passion for the history of the sales profession. Of which there's some elements of it that they got right, that we get wrong today, and I'm [00:03:00] really trying to bring a lot of that to the world of sales as well.

Mahan Tavakoli: That's why both your book really resonated with me and the message that you're sharing, Todd, in that. I've also spent most of my career in sales and understand the need for us to sell our ideas. Even for the CEOs of the most effective organizations, it is in dealing with external stakeholders, their board, their team members, they need to consistently sell. However, there is this negative association with that word sales, or when you talk about negotiation, same thing. People almost feel slimy. They don't wanna go into negotiation.

Todd Caponi: Right.

Mahan Tavakoli: that you are a student of the history of sales and negotiation, why is that?

Todd Caponi: I'll tell you this. So in my last role, I was the Chief Revenue officer of a company based in Chicago called Power [00:04:00] Reviews. And while your listeners may have never heard of them, you've probably used the technology and not realized it, meaning by power reviews. We were in the review space for retailers and brands.

So you're buying a pair of Crocs on crocs.com or a sweater on Vineyard Vines. You look at the product, you scroll down, there was reviews. That was us. We are the engine behind the collect and display of those reviews here. Here's what happened, and I guess this is even more of an origin story.

Because there was a research study that we did with Northwestern University just looking at buyer behavior when a website is acting as a salesperson. All right? So I thought, what does that have to do with human to human or B2B type selling? But it literally, the research caused me to a lunatic, quit my job and write a book.

I, it was my first book called The Transparency Sale. I think my high school English teachers probably still laughing at the thought that I've written anything coherent. But the, here's the research that came out of [00:05:00] it. Number one, no surprise, we all read reviews today when we're buying something we've never bought before.

That matters, right? So no surprise there. But here's the two data points that changed my life. I know that sounds really nerdy, but number one is. For all the listeners out there when you're reading reviews, you go to a website, you're reading the reviews. Do you go to the negative reviews first? Do you skip the fives and go to the fours, threes, twos and ones first.

Almost all of us do. Doesn't make you weird. It makes you human. And then the last data point is on a five star scale, when a product has an average review score between a four two and a four five, that's actually optimal for purchase conversion. In other words. A product that has negative reviews right under, it sells faster and more often than a product that has nothing but perfect five star reviews.

And so I looked at that and thought, alright, [00:06:00] wait, I've got a whole team here that we've been driving in teaching to sell as though we're a five. Like we're awesome. Our competitors suck, right? And are we actually doing a disservice to our customers? And then to your question. Are we actually repelling our customers, making them go, duh.

Because at a subconscious level, we all know that perfection doesn't exist, and there's a reason why we go to the negative first. Now I looked at that and thought, does that apply to human or B2B selling? We started trying it and by trying it, I mean being honest and being transparent and sharing with potential customers first.

What we give up to be great at our core. Hey, in your circumstance, you might not love this, but if you're cool with it, you're gonna love this. And suddenly our sales cycle sped up. Our win rates went up. We were working on the opportunities. We should be winning more firmly. We were [00:07:00] losing the opportunities that we're gonna lose anyway faster, and we differentiated in the way that we sold, which.

Turned us into Chicago's fastest growing tech company from 2014 to 2017, and I was like, wait, honesty and transparency. It feels good. Like we should be doing it, but as it turns out, it sells better too. And so to put a bow on your question, there is my favorite sales quote of all time. It's from 1922. It's from a guy named Arthur Dunn in his book, scientific Selling and Advertising.

And here's the quote. So you're reading the book and there's regular pages, and then you turn the page, there's one sentence on the page. That's it. The rest of the page is white. And here's the sentence, if the truth won't sell it, don't sell it. It's just like such a simple thought in the 1920s, 1910s, that we are there to be truth tellers.

We are there to provide a service. [00:08:00] Which is to help our customers predict not to convince them, and that led to my first book and that applies all the way down to negotiating as well.

Mahan Tavakoli: Todd, what you're saying makes so much sense. However, it runs to a lot of what is written and talked about with respect to sales. I wanted to throw out a couple of. Relevant points on the leadership element that connect as well to that. One is, I'm sure you're familiar with the pratfall effect, even with leaders, we don't like perfection.

We like leaders that are competent, but we can see Transparency some of their flaws. I love the story of the Starbucks logo where initially they had a purely symmetrical face to the woman that is on the cup. People didn't like that as [00:09:00] much. So they test it and now one of the eyes, if you look at it closely, is a tiny bit off center. So what you are saying makes a lot of sense that transparency, that authenticity helps us relate better, is better for sales, better for negotiating. Why is it that we've been told most of our lives and there's so much literature out there, not science-based, telling us to hold our cards close to our chest

When it comes whether to sales or negotiations.

Todd Caponi: It's amazing to me when you look at, so 1890s, you had an industrial revolution going on. You had companies that were starting to hire their own salespeople for the first time ever, and train them, give them variable compensation plans, give 'em quotas. There were sales kickoffs. And the basis for the sales profession was one word.

Service. The word [00:10:00] service. I've got a book here and you can't see it. I know. 'cause most of you're listening. But I'm holding a book from 1911 and it's from my favorite philosopher on sales, a guy named Arthur Sheldon. So another Arthur. Book is called The Art of Selling, and he's got a line in here as he was the guy that really laid the foundation for the sales profession.

It was him and a guy named John Patterson from NCR, but Arthur Sheldon's quote in this book is true Salesmanship is the science of service. Grasp that thought firmly and never let go. So you had a profession that was founded on this idea that salespeople were not there to pound and convince Salespeople were there to help customers make great decisions and achieve outcomes they may have never thought possible.

Alright, so we get into the 1920s, the early 1920s there was a dep depression that nobody [00:11:00] talks about. So you got the Great Depression late 1920s, early 1920s, it's called the Forgotten Depression of the early 1920s. And suddenly manufacturers, they didn't stop manufacturing. So there's tons of inventory, but people stopped buying.

And so suddenly we got into this, Hey, sales isn't about service. Sales is about getting rid of this inventory 'cause. Machines that aren't machining cost a lot of money. Go clear, and so high pressure sales. Sales became gross in the 1910s. You had sales being taught in every major university, 1910s, and in high schools.

There were high schools teaching sales. In 1916, big sales conference. The first of its kind happened in Detroit, Michigan called the World Sales Congress, the keynote speaker. Was then sitting President Woodrow Wilson, and it wasn't 'cause he happened to be in town, it was like, oh, come by. No. He had a specific message for the salespeople of the world or of the country specifically, that [00:12:00] this was our chance.

And the motto of that entire conference was one word service. And so that's like the origination of the profession was to help customers achieve optimal outcomes. And be a guide, be a navigator. But we lost that through the 1920s, the depression, 10 years of high pressure sales, world War ii, you've suddenly generationed out service.

The people that were practicing service were retired, are gone. So all of a sudden, sales from the 1940s to however long became this high pressure, gross force. Our job is to convince, I believe, two things I. Number one, we don't buy when we're convinced. We buy when we can predict, right? We are prediction machines.

That's why we go to the negative reviews first. That's why we don't believe perfection. That's why we need it to trigger purchase decisions. That's number one. But number two is [00:13:00] there's so much talk about, oh, the world is changed and customers have access to so much more information. Like we hear that every single day.

I would argue that. Sales, that traditional opinion or the kind of approach that you talked about that have always been inherent to the way that we thought was based on an era when the sale was the peak of the relationship. That like 1990s you sell something you lie a little, you exaggerate a little, what are they gonna do?

A letter call an 800 number. Today, the proliferation of information on everything we do by an experience means. You have to tell the truth, right? You can't get away with it, and sale is no longer the peak. It's merely an early milestone to having customers that not only buy, but they stay, they buy more, they advocate, they post about it, they tell they, they take you with them to their next company.

I, I just think the world has changed and transparency has to be the way and. [00:14:00] That old school method, it worked in an era when it could work. I just don't think it's sustainable.

Mahan Tavakoli: saw a lot of relevance to what you're talking about. even internal interactions in organizations in

Todd Caponi: Yes.

Mahan Tavakoli: in negotiating. Because while the sale was presented inaccurately, I agree with you as something that was one and done, and you could be transparent in the ongoing relationships in the organization or with funders or with clients . , The kind of mindset you're talking about, whether in sales or negotiations, becomes even more important.

Todd Caponi: Yeah. You know the old phrase that like, Hey, you gotta play the long game, right? The long game wins the long game. Of course it does. It was funny, I was in over in Amsterdam doing a keynote a few months ago, and I stood in the square. I don't know if [00:15:00] you've been to the Amsterdam there, but in the square.

And I was looking around and, I think it was 1601 in Amsterdam, right off the square was the first stock exchange, right? The first stock exchange happened there, and I just, I took a little selfie by it, which is stupid, but I did it. But it really struck me that, hey. For all the leaders that are listening here, we have been taught that short term wins because we've got investors that we have to satisfy.

We've got, forecasting that we have to hit, and as a result, we get so focused on the short term that long term thinking becomes a worry about that next quarter, next year, because that next quarter, next year, I might not have a job if I don't do this right now. And I argue that. In this world again, of this proliferation of information and AI exposing everything, every, like if you could use Google, you can use chat GP like your buyers are not stupid.

I believe the long game wins the long [00:16:00] game, but if you do it right, the long game helps you win the short game because even if you qualify out of an opportunity because you're not the right fed, because you might think that there's a better alternative for that customer in that instance than you, and you make that referral.

That comes back to you three, four times. The opposite of that is if you jam home a deal that you weren't the right fit, even if they don't know before they signed, they're gonna know after they signed. And guess what? Your inbound line, your inbound leads, the referrals. You're gonna lose 5, 10, 2000 deals that you never knew existed because they're not calling you.

I believe that in this era. The long game has to be the prevalent strategy of every organization. It wins the long game, but it wins the short game too. I think you'll be out of a job faster playing short term, focused versus thinking long term and being truly transparent with your customers.

Mahan Tavakoli: It is a great mindset to have, [00:17:00] whether with customers or relationships inside the organization. In your book you focus on negotiation as part of the.

Todd Caponi: Yes.

Mahan Tavakoli: now. of us, when we hear negotiation, we start thinking tips, tricks, tools.

, I work with a lot of CEOs and leadership teams, and in many instances the leadership team members have to work on a budget that they. Then present to the rest of the leadership team, so there is a level of and there's a level of negotiations, and in many instances people are looking for the tips and tricks that are going to convince other people.

But . You say tips and tricks won't do it in negotiation and in convincing others.

Todd Caponi: Yeah, I just, when I first got promoted into revenue leadership, it was a bunch of years ago, and I had always been taught that negotiation requires a different personality than selling. [00:18:00] That always felt terrible to me, like selling and sales with your customers that are supposed to be around forever that you're supposed to have a relationship with, you're supposed to care about 'em.

So we do that. We build the relationship, we build trust all the way to the goal line. We're focused on their outcomes and then they say yes, I want to buy from you. And then I was always taught that, alright, that trigger your, yes. It tells me subconsciously, it's time for me to start lying to you. I'm not gonna tell you what a good deal is.

I know I was focused on your outcomes, but now I'm gonna focus on my outcomes. And I learned everything I know about negotiating from former FBI not hostage negotiators. Like what? Like that was crazy to me that I believe that stuff has its place. I, there's a very popular book that I think is fantastic.

It's behavioral science, it's FBI intrigue. It's awesome. But in this world where again, the deal is [00:19:00] no longer the peak of the relationship, it's a merely an early milestone. I just don't believe that. Eroding trust and becoming selfish right at the goal line is a sustainable approach. I also don't believe, again, talking to transparency, this idea that every single one of your customers is paying a different amount based on how well or poorly you negotiated it.

I don't understand how that's sustainable. The peer connections are growing and growing. There's a book from 1904 that I was just reading here called The Tails of the Road, and there's an article right here that talks about a guy who would negotiate with each customer based on how mean they were to him.

If they were really mean, he would discount more. If they were really nice to him, he'd take 'em to the cleaners. And what happened? Those customers talked. Suddenly nobody wanted to buy from him anymore, and that's 1904. [00:20:00] What year is it like the ability for customers to connect has never been greater and it's growing?

AI is exposing pricing models at such a massive rate that I think there's an opportunity for us to provide a sound basis for the way that we deliver and propose our pricing or commercial terms, whatever it is. And then provide flexibility. That's why the book's called Four Levers Negotiating. 'cause there's four things that drive your business that you can push and pull to provide that flexibility.

But to get value and create consistency across your customer base. I just think, again, I'm totally biased, right? I wrote a book on it, of course, but I just don't think it's sustainable, this old way, changing personalities and everybody's paying a different amount. 'cause you had a good day.

Mahan Tavakoli: . Now, you also mentioned the four levers. Would love for you to explain the four levers and how they relate to negotiating.

Todd Caponi: Yeah, so I'll tell you a quick little story. As I had gotten promoted into [00:21:00] sales and revenue leadership, one of my sales reps that worked on my team was working on a really big deal. Now, what I teach here applies to big or small deals, applies to everything, and it should be consistent. But he was working on this deal.

The customer said, Hey, we're ready. But we need to talk about the pricing and the terms. And so my rep called me and was like, Todd, help. I'm like, all so I get on a plane, head down to Houston, me my rep, and then I'm thinking I'm gonna meet with this one person at this company. I walk in and they brought their whole procurement team and there was at least one person drooling.

Girl, let's go. Like one of those. This was going and I was terrible at it. I've just always been horrible at that kind of situation. So I'm sweating, like I'm anxious oh crap. Oh, these people are about to completely boat race me outta this room. And I'm a newly appointed SVP of sales first time.

My rep's gonna go this guy is weak, right? So I had double [00:22:00] pressure. I accidentally spilled my card's face up on the table, actually on a whiteboard behind them, where I had just had a conversation with my CFOA couple of days earlier, and it was fresh on my mind. But there's essentially four things that drive every for-profit business and drives every for-profit business's pricing model, or so it should.

And those four things are number one. Volume or how much stuff the customer's buying from you, right? Product, technology, services, location, hours, whatever. It's, you want the customer to commit to the largest amount of volume possible. Large, better, short, like smaller, not as good. Number two is the timing of cash, or in other words, how fast they pay.

You want customers to pay you faster, not slower. Who knew? We like money. Number three is. The length of commitment are how long they commit to your products, technology, and services. Longer, better, shorter, not as good. And number four is [00:23:00] predictability or the timing of the deal, meaning you as a leader, you've got a responsibility to help your investors predict.

You've got, forecast the business. You've gotta make investments so that you can resource the deals that you're doing. You need to make sure you've got people available. So that predictability of timing is really valuable. So what ended up happening is I shared that I said, Hey listen our pricing model and our whole organization are based on these four things.

How much you buy, how fast you pay, how long you commit, when you sign. That's what the pricing's based on hope That's helpful. And they're like, fascinating. Don't care. We need a 30% discount. I'm like, alright, why we had a little human to human conversation, but then I took 'em through it and I was like these are the four things we're willing to pay you for in the form of discount or concession.

Commit to more stuff that helps us valuable. We'll pay you in the form of a discount. Pay us faster, commit to a longer term, help [00:24:00] us predict our business. It's mutually aligned around it. It became this cards face up instead of customer vendor. It was a bunch of us sitting around a table. Trading cards back and forth, they got it because their business is run on the same four levers as ours.

We walked out of the room with a three year deal. They paid for the whole three years up front so they could get a discount. Super valuable to us. We didn't have to go get a series B, and they helped us predict we hit our quarter and it helped us invest and make sure the resources are ready so that they could hit the ground running too.

It's a simple concept. Internalize those four levers, communicate them. When you talk about pricing, when you propose it, negotiation becomes so much easier and it becomes that consistent sound basis. Our pricing is based on something, it's not made up and you gotta come after me.

Mahan Tavakoli: That level of transparency is very different than the way a lot of us approach negotiating, whether it is with customers or [00:25:00] internally within departments or within teams in the organization.

Todd Caponi: That's exactly right. There's a quote from one of these books from 1927 that's again, the twenties when things had shifted and they got a little gross, and the quote was essentially never share the price until the customer thinks it's more. That makes me like, no, like that's insane.

We, I was taught many times that hey, don't even talk about pricing until you get to the executive buyer, or whatever it is. No, your price should, unless you're a startup, unless it's a new offering, brand new offering, and it you haven't established any market value for your solutions, your price should be your price.

With the flexibility of the four levers. Share it with everybody. Share it with the person that gets coffee for the janitor, like it doesn't matter. Your price should be your price transparently. And again, to this idea that there's so much movement. Like when I talked about my origin story, my dad, he worked for the same company for 42 years.

Who does that anymore? Nobody. [00:26:00] So your customers are taking you with them to their next company. And it's funny that when you share these levers the right way and consistently they remember them. I've got a story of a customer that went to another one and I went to another company called me.

I was a CRO at the time and was like, Hey, Todd Hey, I'm at this new company. We love you guys. We wanna bring you in. What can you do for me? And I'm like, how long have you known me? And he is is it the levers again? And I was like, yeah, it's the levers. And so I took him through it. And again, he was able to use them to negotiate his own price in a way that was really valuable and consistent with our entire customer base.

That's the power of this. It's transparent. It establishes confidence in your pricing model to everybody you communicate it to, and it's highly consistent that you don't have to worry about, oh, I hope they don't talk about pricing at that event they're at because they're gonna find out that he got a better deal than it like, no.

Now it's consistent across all of those areas, and at its [00:27:00] core, it's really easy for your sales organization, your client success organization, your account management organ, anybody who's talking price. Loses that anxiety that they feel when they suddenly have to go, is this gonna be okay? Of course, that's the price, and either it's not, or it is.

And again, there's flexibility. If there's things you wanna pay us for, we're willing to reciprocate.

Mahan Tavakoli: One of the things I wanna understand a little bit better, Todd, is and how human heuristics play a role in that. I'm sure you're familiar with, for example, what Kahneman had, talked about , which is an anchoring bias. We have. I was at a. Fundraiser recently a gala for an organization here in Greater Washington. they started out with a paddle raise of people giving $10,000. Person next to me said, these people have been seated they know ahead of time they're gonna [00:28:00] give $10,000 because when they give the $10,000, then more people are willing to give 5,000. And when they get to a thousand, a lot more paddles go up, so on and so forth. So there is a human heuristic that plays into that. However, that's not transparency.

Todd Caponi: Okay.

Mahan Tavakoli: if they were being really transparent, they would say, you know what, these two $10,000 people, they're already on our board. They already have committed 10,000 bucks and we don't really need all of you to give us 5,000.

We just need, I don't know, 20, at a thousand and 50 at a hundred dollars. Does transparency play a role when on the other end you have human heuristics gets us to commit at different levels financially and otherwise?

Todd Caponi: I'm always an advocate of everything that is the opposite of either what I call word art [00:29:00] or trickery. That gets people to empty their wallet faster than other ways. What it reminds me of is, I was recently in New York and there, there's a restaurant in New York called Elle.

I don't know if you've heard of it, but they're known for their cheeseburgers. And the cheeseburgers, though, they're each between 34 and $38. So that's an expensive cheeseburger. But the restaurant's packed and there's people like cheeseburger throw bacon. I'm like, what up? And they're going crazy for this stuff.

Now, can you imagine if they hid that price? And then said it's $36 for your burger. People would freak out. What do they do the minute you walk in? They give you a menu. It's 34 to $38. It is cards face up. Now. They've never, I would assume had anybody say, Hey I was down the street. There's a place, it's a restaurant.

It's called mc, McDonald's. I can get a cheeseburger. I can get, they give you fries and a drink with it for [00:30:00] $8 and 50 cents. Why am I paying $34? That's never happened in the history of Bel. Now the point being that when we talk about heuristics and anchoring, I, I work with a few large clients that are higher end price versus many ankle biter competitors that are coming in cheap.

There's tons of cheap alternatives. I've guided them to, hey, in the first conversation. As a part of transparency to be able to share with the customer, Hey, listen, before we get too deep into this, your pricing's probably gonna be between X and Y. And if that's gonna be way off of what you even are able to con let's talk about that now versus later.

Because I believe if you're talking about a seven figure solution to a four figure or five figure buyer, one of you's in the wrong conversation anyway. But to your point, now you've set that expect expectation. At the end of the cycle, they're not going, Hey, I found somebody that's $80. No, that's not happening anymore.

Because you set that [00:31:00] expectation and you gave the opportunity to qualify in or qualify out at the beginning. I would also argue the term sticker shock. Has never been associated with anything good in the history of humankind, right? So lay that out there. Win fast, but . Second place to winning fast is losing fast.

I think that's your opportunity to set that anchor.

Mahan Tavakoli: And I imagine that's also why. I, you are not a big advocate for artificial deadlines and

Todd Caponi: Yes.

Mahan Tavakoli: like that in negotiating.

Todd Caponi: Absolutely like the fake expiring discounts. I always joke that if you ever shop at Kohl's, the retailer and you pay full price, we can't be friends, right? Because there's always a discount. They just go to their website. There's old page, like you're discounts, click on it, right?

When I talk through the fourth levers, that fourth lever, I call the timing of the deal. And my flip on that and my perspective on that is. What are you paying for [00:32:00] now? Fake expiring. Discount is trying to create some artificial motivation to get somebody to buy on your timeline, even if they have no means to buy on your timeline and.

We've all been taught as buyers that, hey, if you're offering it now then it also means that if I don't buy on time, but then I wait some more, you'll probably offer it again. Like that price is probably the price I'm going to pay whenever I buy. When I talk about the timing of the deal and that fourth lever, what I'm saying is this, there's tremendous value in our ability to predict our business.

Like your business, you've got forecast, you've gotta make investments, you've got a resource. If you're willing to help us predict if we can mutually align around the timing of this, and I'll be your guide through this, here's the things we're gonna do together, but if you can stick to it, that's something I'm willing to pay you for.

I'll pay you in the form of said concession or discount to help us predict. That becomes a [00:33:00] completely different conversation versus the fake, Hey, like this quarter, only 10% no, stop it. It's me. I'm paying for something. What am I paying for? I'm paying for predictability, not jamming a deal in unnaturally, which will end up costing me later anyway.

Because even if they don't buy, that's gonna be the price in their mind going forward. You've re-anchor them the minute you've thrown a fake expiring discount out there.

Mahan Tavakoli: When we think about our own purchase behavior, that makes sense. However, the practices in a lot of organizations align with that. So what you're saying is common sense when we think about how we view brands, how we view services, products, salespeople. But a lot of practices in organizations don't fully align with what. Makes sense that you're talking about. Now would love for you to shed some thoughts on outside of dealing with external stakeholders and [00:34:00] clients, how these apply within the organization.

Todd Caponi: Yeah. It's funny that the four levers are really designed for business to business type transactions Now. It's funny though. I'll tell you a quick story here that might relate. , So I'm not one of those like fancy car guys. I buy like an old Ford. And so a few years ago I was gonna buy a Ford Explorer, and I was looking for slightly used ones, right?

Because the minute you buy a new one off the lot it, or you know the story there. So I went online, I just googled. What are the three best ways to get the best deal when buying a used car? And so I got all these ideas back, but there was three common things that came up. The number one was don't tell them how you intend to pay until you've negotiated the price of the car.

So if you're gonna write a check, if you're gonna finance through them, if you're gonna lease, wait. Number two is if you've got a trade in, don't tell them about that until you've negotiated the [00:35:00] price of the car. And then number three is. There's something wrong with your tradein for goodness sake.

Don't tell them that. Let them find it. And so I looked at these three things and there was a few Ford Explorers that kind of matched what I was looking for at different dealers. But I went into the first one and I was like, Hey, I'm gonna have some fun with this, but I have a theory that this is actually gonna help me.

I did the opposite of all three within the first 10 minutes of talking to my salesperson. So I walk in. I'm like, Hey, I'm interested in this car, and they assign a rep, his name was Frankie. We go into his office and I said, Hey, Frankie, first of all, I've got, here's my check. Like I'm I'm like I've got financing worked out.

Number two is, that Jeep Grand Cherokee in the parking lot? That's mine. I'm intend to trade that in. Do you see the smoke swirling behind it in the parking lot? This is no joke. The there was the check engine light was not only on, but it was flashing, [00:36:00] which I've later learned means the car's about to burst into flames.

And so it was funny. I shared all of that in the first five minutes. Frankie. Within the next 10 minutes shared his story of challenges with A DHD, his relationship issues with his father. He talked about issues that he's got with his job and how much he dislikes it. I did use it for a little evil, I gotta admit.

I did ask him, Hey. How do car salespeople get paid? Like I've never understood the whole model. He pulled his compensation plan off of his credenza, gives it to me, and as we're talking, I'm reading his actual compensation plan. Now, it's funny that, I ended up buying the car from him and I got a deal that paid him the lease he could possibly make on a car.

So again, I did use it for little evil, but the point being is transparency always begets transparency. You would be so shocked when you share unexpected honesty the way that [00:37:00] reciprocates back to you. So I would argue that in any instance where you're trying to influence somebody to do something different, whether it's an internal negotiation, whether it's a purchase, whether it's negotiating a deal, that when we lead with transparency and we are cards face up in our approach, you will sense and the conversation will completely change.

You don't put yourself at a disadvantage. I'm telling you over and over again, people can't help but reciprocate that transparency and that collaboration and you'll find, so whatever the instances is, whatever the negotiation is, when you can go in and go, Hey, here's what I'm dealing with and here's the part that sucks, right?

And here's what I'm trying to get at. And being able to share that cards face up. I think you'll quickly find resolution, speed up and relationships will build.

Mahan Tavakoli: I love that on so many levels. Todd and I have to tell you, dozens of years of working with [00:38:00] top CEOs and leadership teams and hundreds of conversations for this podcast, that is also one of the best ways for a leader to deal with and interact with their team members. is a different mindset. However, with that level of transparency, people are willing to bend over backwards for their leaders.

Todd Caponi: Exactly.

Mahan Tavakoli: I think it is outstanding way to approach sales. It is a beautiful mindset for negotiating, and it is exactly the right approach for leadership as well.

Todd Caponi: Thank you. Yeah, my first book is called The Transparency Sale. My second one is the Transparent Sales Leader. And that's just, it's not just about transparency. It's actually a framework for revenue leadership on a bed of transparency. And then the new book that just came out, it's four levers negotiating that kind of takes you [00:39:00] deep into that part of it.

But yeah, that's always been my mindset. And again, it goes back to this idea that being transparent and being honest, it feels good. Like I think most human beings feel that way. I would argue it sells better. It retains better. It grows better, it leads better. It negotiates better. It just, it's got so much power to it that why wouldn't we?

I, that's stop with the, Hey, that's the way my father used to do it. No, I think there's an opportunity for us to just think clearly about the world. The proliferation of information, the rise of ai, I think now is the time more than at any other era in our humanity where we've got to start embracing this.

Mahan Tavakoli: It is the time for us to become more human again. Love that. . So for the audience to both find out about your book and follow your work, where would you send them to?

Todd Caponi: Yeah, I think Todd caponi.com is a good place to start. It's got all [00:40:00] kinds of stuff there. You can follow or connect with me on LinkedIn. I do share a bunch of my. Nonsense there. As a side note, we talked a little bit of history. My hobby is the history of sales. I've got a podcast called the Sales History Podcast, where I just find a topic, I dig deep into it, and then I share for , 14 to 20 minutes an episode.

Just the lessons through that lens. There's so much historical context there. So if you're looking for another, listen, once you get done with your podcast, of course, it's called the Sales History Podcast.

If you want to go check that out as well.

Mahan Tavakoli: I really appreciate you and your insights. Todd, thank you so much for the conversation, Todd. Caponi.

Todd Caponi: Thanks for having me. This is a blast.