Bonus: Big Cat Trade with Vanessa Amoroso

The global big cat trade encompasses both legal and illegal networks, with South Africa standing as the world's largest exporter of big cats including both live animals and parts. Vanessa Amoroso from Four Paws International explains how captive breeding facilities create a "conveyor belt of cubs" that fuels tourism attractions while obscuring the darker reality of what happens to these animals. Together Claudia and Vanessa discuss how loopholes in CITES allows for the large-scale legal breeding and trade of big cats, which also has numerous slippages into the illegal trade of the animals and exacerbates their exploitation. 

Date Recorded: 5 August 2024

Vanessa Amoroso has been employed at FOUR PAWS / VIER PFOTEN International since September 2021 and has worked within the animal welfare sector for thirteen years. She holds a BSc in Environmental Biology and a PGCert in International Animal Welfare, Ethics and Law. Vanessa currently oversees the design and delivery of the commercial big cat trade campaign in South Africa and European trade of Tigers. She also heads up the wildlife trade component of the Pandemics and Animal Welfare campaign. 

Featured: 

• Dethroned directed by Will Foster-Grundy
• Help for Big Cats by Four Paws
• Big Cat Reporting Tool by Four Paws
• CITES – Convention on the International Trade of Endangered Species. 

The Animal Turn is part of the  iROAR, an Animals Podcasting Network and can also be found on A.P.P.L.E, LinkedIn, Blue Sky, and Instagram

Thank you to Animals in Philosophy, Politics, Law and Ethics (A.P.P.L.E) for sponsoring this podcast; Gordon Clarke (Instagram: @_con_sol_) for the bed music, Jeremy John for the logo, Rebecca Shen for her design work. This episode was edited and produced by the host Claudia Towne Hirtenfelder. 

A.P.P.L.E
Animals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Chapters

• 0:41 Introduction to the Big Cat Trade Crisis
• 10:11 South Africa's Role as Largest Big Cat Exporter
• 19:27 Understanding CITES and Legal Loopholes
• 28:14 The Dark Reality of Big Cat Breeding Facilities
• 35:17 Wildlife Tourism and Public Awareness
• 42:12 Future Solutions and Conservation Efforts

Transcript

Vanessa Amoroso : 0:01

This is another iRaw podcast. Oh, billions, billions of US dollars at least, and you know almost every species, and we're living in a world now where we're talking about the biodiversity crisis as much as the climate crisis, and captivity on this scale isn't the solution. We really should be looking after these animals in the wild and making sure that people see them in the wild rather than see them in captivity, because it really is kind of a false conservation lie.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 0:41

Hello everyone, welcome back to the Animal Turn. Last November so that's November 2024, a good friend of mine here in Vienna, ellie English, approached me and said hey, do I want to go to the screening of a film that's coming out called Dethroned? It's all about the trade of big cats. And I, of course, said yes. I've never been to the screening or the premiere of a film in my life, so it was very exciting to go and, of course, one that's showcasing and talking about such an important topic. I was very much open and interested, so we went along and we watched Dethroned, which is a marvel to watch. The cinematography done by Aaron Gagoski and Will Foster Grundy is outstanding. It's beautifully done. And what I really appreciate about the story is it kind of shows the complexity of big cat trade. Without focusing on a specific species and without necessarily giving you a kind of neat or clean answer to what's going on. It really does grapple with some of the complexity and the messiness of how the trade of animals operates. So I, needless to say, I very much enjoyed watching the film and afterwards, when everybody was kind of mingling around and eating snacks and talking to one another, I looked over and I saw Vanessa kind of crouching down on a stool getting some snacks into her face. It had been a very busy day and Vanessa had appeared in the film as one of the experts and actually one of the instigators of the film and she is an expert on the big cat trade. So while she was busy eating, I approached her and I said Hi, I'm the host of a podcast known as the Animal Turn. Would you mind being on my show? And she was gracious and delightful and said yes, she would. And a few months later, we spoke. And now, even a few months later, we spoke. And now, even a few months later, the episode is finally ready to be aired. Things have, of course, been quite busy with releasing of the season focused on animals and health, which went down really well, but now there's a spot of time to release some of this bonus content.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 2:36

In today's episode, we speak all about the big cat trade. That includes the ways in which it operates in illegal networks, but also, importantly, what facilitates and makes it possible to trade big cats legally. Now, vanessa Amorosa has been employed at Four Paws International since September 2021 and has worked within the animal welfare sector for 13 years. She holds a BSc in environmental biology and a PG certification in international animal welfare ethics and law. Vanessa currently oversees the design and the delivery of the commercial big cat trade campaign in South Africa and the European trade of tigers. She also heads up the wildlife trade components of the pandemics and animal welfare campaign. So she is extremely knowledgeable about the big cat trade. She's not only someone who sat behind desks thinking about laws and policies with regards to the trade of animals like lions and tigers, but she's also gone to the places that display and show them and seen first-hand accounts of the ways in which these animals are treated. So it was a very interesting conversation.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 3:40

I enjoyed speaking to Vanessa and I hope you also get something from this episode, learning a little bit more about the big cat trade.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 3:55

Hi, vanessa, welcome to the Animal Tone podcast. Hi there, thanks for having me. It's so great that you're here because I randomly approached you at the premiere of Dethroned here in Vienna, which was a really fascinating film. So I'm delighted to have you here today to talk more about the big cat trade, because some of the things I learned from that film I knew about, but a lot of it was quite surprising and new and one of the key things you mentioned during the Q&A after that was just how important it is to look at the legal trade of wildcats A lot of people focus on, well, not wildcats, but the legal trade of big cats, and how a lot of people tend to focus on the illegal trade. Well, I'm getting tongue-tied. So I'm excited to talk to you a bit more about big cat trade today, because I know fairly little about it. Big cat trade today because I know fairly little about it. But maybe we could start thinking about how you got involved in looking at and thinking about big cats.

Vanessa Amoroso : 4:52

Yeah well, I mean, I, like many people out there, I love big cats. Um, you know, they astound me, they're so beautiful, um, and then when you learn that there are so many in captivity in really like squaloring, like in situations that they really shouldn't be, you kind of get jumped up to do something about it. Not a lot of people know that South Africa, for instance, has 10,000 lions, that's approximately, and over 600 tigers in captivity alone, and that's astounding, right, it's very shocking yeah, I mean, I'm from south africa and we're we take a lot of pride in our our big five right lions.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 5:30

Of course, several lions and leopards are in the the big five. A lot of tourists come to see the big five and, um, I think many of us are aware that there's canned lion hunting in the country, but I think very few of us kind of problematize the. You know there's there's all of these cub attractions and opportunities to touch animals and uh yeah, there's just a lot of animals, and particularly big cats, being used in these kind of petting and tourist functions.

Vanessa Amoroso : 6:00

But what I didn't realize and you mentioned this in Dethroned that South Africa is one of the biggest exporters of big cats in the world it is the biggest exporter of big cats and that's live animals and parts as well, and the parts really shouldn't be happening according to CITES. But there is a CITES loophole where, especially for tigers, when you think that their appendix won and they should have the most protection ever, there's all these measures, especially in Asia, to introduce them and have them increase the wild population, and then you see them on the flip side, traded in such large numbers. It just doesn't quite add up.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 6:42

So you emerged you somehow. How did you become aware of this and spark an interest in joining four paws?

Vanessa Amoroso : 6:51

Yeah, I mean, I've always been interested in wildlife. I've always been an animal person from the get-go, since a little baby. So it really is a dream come true to be able to work for animals. And yeah, this is a really interesting part of my career where I get to learn about big cats and see how they traded around the world. And yeah, we focus mainly on the situation in Europe and South Africa and Asia, but we're about to focus on a bit more, a few more countries as well, so it's really about piecing together the puzzle of big cats.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 7:27

Were you always focused on cats or, prior to joining Four Paws, you were looking at other wildlife?

Vanessa Amoroso : 7:34

Other wildlife. I guess I was more looking into exotic pets as well. We looked at otter trade, the trade of snakes, and Africanrican gray parrots, tortoises, that kind of thing. You know, the kind of furry and not so furry animals you keep in the home and kind of uncovering the trade of those animals because it's just as illicit, you know.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 7:59

So yeah, the wildlife trade is is such a big conundrum it's not easy to fix how, how big is this like when we're talking about the trade of wildlife, the legal trade of wildlife? How, how big an industry are we talking about?

Vanessa Amoroso : 8:15

oh, billions, billions of of us dollars at least, um, and you know almost every species, and we're living in a world now where we're talking about the biodiversity crisis as much as the climate crisis, and captivity on this scale isn't the solution. We really should be looking after these animals in the wild and making sure that people see them in the wild rather than see them in captivity, because it really is kind of a false conservation lie as kind of a false conservation lie.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 8:46

And I think there's something that happens when, you know, I'm working at a kindergarten now and I didn't go with, but they went on a zoo trip last week. And I think something happens when you see these animals in captivity, especially at this young age of four or five, it just becomes like oh, this is where these animals belong, this is how we interact with a bear or a giraffe or an elephant. They are in zoos, in captivity, and it's remarkable. You know, I used to love the zoo as a young kid. But something happens.

Vanessa Amoroso : 9:18

It normalizes, I think these animals being in those kinds of spaces, yeah, mean, as children you have a very fast and fascination with animals. Right, we learn about them from day one, um, but you know, like you say, going to see them in the zoo or perhaps having interactions with them, it has that. It kind of puts that acceptance of this is okay and this is the legal trade, as you say. So, um, you know, it says, oh, if it's legal it's fine. But actually at four paws we kind of try and say is it okay? Are those animals okay? Do we know where those animals come from? Where are they going?

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 9:55

as well, often people would be surprised yeah, so so it's not just like um an ad giraffe is being bought from a sanctuary somewhere and lives out their life at one zoo. They could actually end up at multiple institutions over the course of their life well.

Vanessa Amoroso : 10:10

Also, sanctuaries would never sell their animals. Most of the time they're bred. Um, yeah, and especially like the situation in south africa, where you have these thousands of animals and this massive cub petting industry, where people go there, they take their children or they want that selfie for their instagram and they say, look, here's me with a tiger, or feeding a lion, cub or something, and, um, and nobody knows actually what happens to those animals. What happens to those animals is actually very shocking, because they, first of all, they never go to the wild. Um, as you might think, as you might think that you're spending your money and it's helping conservation it doesn't. It goes into the pockets of a very few people. And then those animals, when they are too big to be cuddled, um, you know, they either go straight back into the intensive breeding cycle to produce more cubs, or they're shot in canned hunting, or they're killed for their bones and then traded for traditional medicines.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 11:08

So that's the kind of link that we need people to start making rather than just stop at oh, this is a cute cub and I'm taking a photo yeah, I know Aaron Gagoski was one in the film and I saw him give a lecture at a tourism conference a couple of years ago and I remember one of the things saying if you can take a picture with it or selfie with it, don't do it like you're. You're. It's not good because you have to think about what is required to get a large animal if you're taking a photo with an adult capable of sitting still while you're having a photo with them, and two when you're in a pen. I mean, I went to uh again, I grew up in Johannesburg and just outside of the city there's a what's it called the lion, the lion, it's the lion, something or other and, um, they had a whole pen of just cubs and you know, you walk in and it's literally like a petting zoo, like like you would if you were to see guinea pigs in a petting zoo.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 12:05

You walk around and it's literally like a petting zoo, like you would if you were to see guinea pigs in a petting zoo. You walk around and there's just cubs lying all over the floor, tourists walking around and picking up cubs as though they're completely non-discriminate. They're not really thinking about what the animals are going through, taking pictures and then they leave or they go outside and they have an ostrich or buffalo steak at the restaurant and they completely don't think about the implications of that animal. But like you say, if you think about lions in the wild, they grow up in communal settings where there's a whole host of adults around to look after them. They aren't rarely alone at that age where they can barely open their eyes. It's pretty remarkable when you stop and think whoa, what, what is happening here, when you've got a whole bunch of cubs just lying on the floor.

Vanessa Amoroso : 12:48

It's bizarre, exactly, and nobody says, oh, where's the mother? And actually, if you, if you do ask where the mother is, you're often told all these, these cubs were abandoned. But that's quite a high turnover of abandoned cubs, right? Doesn't. Also doesn't make sense. But in terms of, you know what it takes to make a big cat, you know, be so docile or or tame, right?

Vanessa Amoroso : 13:11

Um, remember there was that expose a few years ago of the of the drugging of tigers in thailand with the monks. You know that that's a regular thing. Um, and then when I saw, especially when I went, went to Thailand to film the Thailand leg of the film, I saw, you know, animals chained tiny short chains, all day in the heat, with no water, and cubs are kind of like, they have this stick and I guess they beat them with the stick until they are completely in submission when they're young, and then so when they're old, they see the stick and they're like OK, not gonna, I'm unhappy in this situation, but I'm not gonna complain. Um, that's what it takes to to be an apex predator, right, so you can take your photo with them well, and you mentioned sightings earlier again.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 13:57

So so here we've been speaking in many ways about and I guess there's a blurring of the legal and illegal trades but the lions that you see in zoos, the tigers and animals that you see in places like the lion park or, you know, tiger what are often sold as sanctuaries and I think maybe this is why I said sanctuaries earlier people are often told that they're sanctuaries but they're not. Especially if you're able to take photos and the autonomy of the animal is not really respected in any way, that's generally a good indicator that it's not a sanctuary. But you mentioned CITES earlier. So what if this is all happening and it's so prolific? What is CITES? Well, firstly, can you tell us what CITES is and then can you tell us, well, what is CITES actually doing for for big cats?

Vanessa Amoroso : 14:44

well, that's a big question, but first of all I just want to um say about the sanctuaries thing. So the sanctuaries and the way to say understand where is a good sanctuary, a true sanctuary and where is not a, you know, a good sanctuary is that they never allow breeding, they don't allow trade and they don't allow interactions and they, you know it's kind of species appropriate care for the rest of the animals lives, which is something that we provide at our sanctuaries. Now, cites is a convention of international trade of endangered species. So I don't want to knock CITES, because also it's some sometimes the best thing we have, unfortunately. But it does allow trade of endangered species, which to me is a bit of an oxymoron, like if something's endangered you shouldn't trade it, you should like kind of leave it be so. It can, you know, bring back the populations by itself, naturally.

Vanessa Amoroso : 15:38

But CITES, for the good, for the most part, all of the countries, most of the countries, are signed up to it. So they, they do abide by certain rules, and, and for tigers especially, is that they shouldn't allow commercial trade of tigers. But unfortunately the loophole is that if they are bred in captivity, then that facility needs to be licensed or registered by CITES, so then they can understand the permitting and understand the numbers. But it's hard to kind of coordinate so many countries' efforts, and so mistakes do happen and those loopholes are exploited.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 16:21

So, if I understand you correctly, you can trade in an animal like a lion or tiger as long as that animal has been bred and born in captivity. So you're not allowed to capture a wild tiger in a jungle in India and then trade that wild tiger, but you are if you just so happen to like. That's also the question how do you happen to have a breeding pair of tigers in your backyard? If you happen to have some tigers pair of tigers in your backyard and if you happen to have some tigers that can breed and they bear young, you're allowed to trade. And I mean that just seems odd on on many levels because you look at various industries. I mean even look at pet dogs. The second you have breeding facilities. Things go wrong. The second breeding is a motive. I mean this sounds like a motive almost in the society's regulation that if they breed and there happens to be young you can trade. Or I mean I know we're speaking in simple terms now maybe I'm being too critical.

Vanessa Amoroso : 17:18

Well, I mean, I think if tigers are worth a lot of money, right, so if you are allowed to breed, then people can be tempted by profit, and that's what we're seeing. And then we see like irregular records or no records, maintenance that kind of thing, and and that's where tigers go missing and those tigers often end up as traditional medicine.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 17:41

How much do people pay to buy a tiger? Like what are the?

Vanessa Amoroso : 17:46

costs. I mean that really can change depending on where you are and whether it's an illegal trade or illegal trade. But you know, tigers can go from like anything from 5,000 euros to 22,000 euros, depending on coloring or, you know, breeding stock, that kind of thing.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 18:13

Wow, I mean it almost. It doesn't seem. I know it sounds like a lot of money, but it really doesn't seem like that much money. Maybe I don't I mean, I don't have 5,000 euros in my bank account, let alone but it just seems like nothing for for an animal's life and I guess they would bring in a fair amount of profit.

Vanessa Amoroso : 18:30

So if you buy a tiger for five thousand and they're able to breed and give you another tiger and you're able to use them in a petting circumstance, you can generate quite a bit of money from this animal yeah, and unfortunately for big cats, um, you know, they can be bred um quite intensively as well, because when, um, when you, the mother has the cubs, if you take the cubs away, she will then automatically go back into eusterus, which means that she can mate again. So this is why we have the conveyor belt of cubs, because they're taken straight away from a very, very young age and, as you know, like in the wild, they would stay, stay with the pride or with their mothers for like two to three years until they reach maturity. So we're seeing these very immature cubs, um, no, only, no only human contact, really. So of course, they'd never be released into the wild.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 19:18

They don't have the skills to to survive there so that means that there's a proliferation of this trade. Because if the rule of sight he says that if these animals breed in captivity and they can be traded and you've got an increasing population of big cats in captivity in comparison to wild cats, that suggests to me that the population of captive cats is going to continue to grow even as the population of wild cats declines.

Vanessa Amoroso : 19:47

Exactly, and you know we use CITES to move animals and you should be able to move animals to zoos, to sanctuaries, that kind of thing. But then we also have the commercial trade that can be used as a code to to move these animals and what we're seeing is that you know what we have seen evidence of of um, big cats being moved from south africa to, say, vietnam under the purpose code zoo, when they they should have used commercial trade, because commercial trade maybe has a little bit more scrutiny, but they use zoo, no scrutiny, and they end up at a farm in vietnam and then disappear and it's well known that they will import live animals to then breed them there.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 20:30

What do you mean when you say no scrutiny Like? What does that mean?

Vanessa Amoroso : 20:33

Well, because the facilities need to be registered and in order to move these animals, they usually have to have an import and an export permit. So if you put the reason code for trading as commercial trade, somebody is more likely in the office going to be like oh, what's actually happening here?

Vanessa Amoroso : 20:52

But if it's, a zoo they just think oh, it's trade between zoos, it's fine, you know. There's less scrutiny, there's less kind of critical attention given to animals moving between zoos than if it's for some other purpose, where they might be funneled into a medical stream of making money or whatever it is. This is something that we would like to look at going forward as well, working at CITES, because we do go there every time there's an event and things. So I think we do need to kind of reform what revise first and then reform the codes that are used.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 21:27

So how are these animals even being moved? And again, so primarily speaking now I suppose, in the legal realm. But let's say someone is trading, they've put down the zoo code and we know, once the animal reaches its destination they could just happen to disappear because the lack, there's a bit of lack of tracking. Tracking that's happening, but how are animals getting from, say, south africa to vietnam? Are they being flown?

Vanessa Amoroso : 21:52

yeah, they're being flown. Yeah, but the thing is, once you have the, the papers, it's, it's deemed legal and it's fine, right. But, um, if nobody's really checking the papers or keeping an eye on, oh, we've exported a couple thousand lions and tigers to Vietnam and doesn't raise any concerns. You know, that's the kind of stuff that we're seeing over the years. Are there people in?

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 22:14

South Africa, fighting against this, trying to combat the the trade.

Vanessa Amoroso : 22:19

Yeah, yeah, there are people in South Africa and NGOs and the population of South Africa. I think a big part of our work is making sure that South Africans know exactly what's happening in their country because, like you said, very proud of their wildlife and would hate to see it exploited in this way. So we definitely want to mobilize South Africans to, you know, sign our petition really, and then speak to their MPs. I know there's a new government now, so the the work is to kind of begin again to make sure that the new government is sympathetic to our cause and can do something about it.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 22:54

Okay, so let's switch a little bit to how this is connected. So we've got this huge trade of animals legally, whether it's for zoos or for research and societies. Unfortunately, despite all of its good work does provide a loophole for this kind of movement of big cats. How is this then connected to or different to, the illegal trade of these animals?

Vanessa Amoroso : 23:17

Yeah, I mean the illegal trade I guess would have begun with the tigers and poaching tigers from the wild for traditional medicines and things like that, and until the, I think, the 1970s, when most of the big cats were listed to Appendix 1 because there were so few of them. So the illegal trade is continuing to take animals from the wild, which is what we see in for jaguars in peru and south america. Those are poachers who are understanding or still understand. Now you know these animals are still profitable. There is still a huge demand from asia, so we will do what we can to get some money so so it's.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 23:59

It's primarily hunting. It's same going into the same streams. It's going into medicine, it's going into tourism. These animals are being traded for pet keeping, for a whole host of things that are very similar to the legal trade of animals. It's just more a matter of how the animals are obtained. That's different.

Vanessa Amoroso : 24:22

But there are also illegal happenings, even in Europe. People will dispose of their ex-circus tiger, you know, and they're supposed to dispose of them in a proper way, where you know, incinerate them so they don't become profitable. But a few years ago we exposed in the Czech Republic a very big trader who was trading with Vietnamese. So yeah, I mean it really is happening everywhere. Wherever there are tigers, you kind of have to ask why are they there, what are they being used for, and is somebody making a bit of extra money?

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 24:51

Why would it be important to stop the trade of dead animal parts? Someone might say in that scenario that you painted there. Someone might say, okay, well, the tiger experience being in the, the zoo or the circus. They had an awful life. Um, we should have stopped this long before that happened. But now they're dead. So what is the harm in trading their, their dead tissues and bones? Um, why do those have to be incinerated?

Vanessa Amoroso : 25:18

well, ultimately these tigers are alive to have them dead. So that's a big problem there. But ultimately I think we need to stop the demand for these products. So well, luxury products like furs and teeth, jewelry but then most of it is for traditional medicine, so like tinctures and potions. Tiger bone wine is very popular in, um, you know, kind of the elite circles of of asian culture. So with that is where this, this is. This is how it all connects right. So there's a supply and demand, um, so, yeah, that's really important to kind of stem, because if people continue to have no regard for these animals, either alive, as a cub or as a traditional medicine, then how are we supposed to fix the problem of wild populations of tigers bouncing back right, which so many people are working so hard on?

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 26:15

Yeah, and I imagine it's also a matter of respect, right? Like I could say that to my husband. I've lived a good life with my husband, but when he he dies, I'm going to trade his bones to someone else. It just seems something seems a bit odd there in um. You know, trying to preserve and respect another species while at the same time trading and moving their body parts seems counterintuitive, and I think there's this kind of tension that's always at play where we're trying to hold animals both as commodities in our mind and as beings that we need to respect. But when you look at it, having both of those at the same time is very problematic, because the one will always undercut the other, right? So you've mentioned now lions, tigers, jaguars, and that makes me think. When you talk about big cats I didn't know this, but I read it now before the interview that how you define a big cat is whether it's a cat who roars. Is that true, uh?

Vanessa Amoroso : 27:11

no, I wouldn't necessarily. Well, they all make kind of different sounds. I mean how we, how we say, when we work on big cats, it's the panthera genus and those are the five big cats, um, but but certainly other cats like cheetah, um, you know, find themselves in exactly the same situations exploitative situations for the pet trade, and we're seeing that cheetahs are also starting to be used for their bones as well, which is very, very worrying because it's gone from tigers to lions to now cheetahs and jaguars. And like, where does it end?

Vanessa Amoroso : 27:46

is south africa, also a big um cheetah trader uh, I wouldn't be sure of the numbers, but I know that namibia is, and I know that most of the trade goes to the horn of africa and then towards the middle east wow that seems to be the trade route, and so almost no, no, wild animals have not left exploited, right, they're all exploited at some point.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 28:07

Yeah, and how are these farms? So these are legal farms that are breeding lines in South Africa and I know you said you saw some of the big cats in Thailand when you were doing work for the film. How do these breeding facilities they, what do they look like? Because, on the one hand, what you saw in Thailand was public facing and you said it was pretty terrible the conditions that the cats were being kept in. Do you have any idea what the breeding facilities look like when they're breeding these large animals? What, what does that look like?

Vanessa Amoroso : 28:42

yeah, I've been to facilities in Thailand now and I've been to facilities in South Africa, and these have been public facing facilities. But, for sure, when you're there you kind of see the adult animals or the cubs separately. You never see them together, which for me indicates that there's always a part of the facility that's not for public eyes and that's where the intensity happens. That's where you have that conveyor belt and the mating and things like that. So, yeah, it's kind of a bit of a dark underbelly.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 29:18

And are there larger numbers? So the lion population is declining right? Do you know what the current wild population for lions is?

Vanessa Amoroso : 29:33

For wild lions now. I remember that there were about 30,000 a couple of years ago and now there's about 20,000 wild lions in the world, and in South Africa alone there are 10 000 in captivity and just over 3 000 um in the wild in south africa. So, yeah, I mean, all wild animals seem to be in decline because of the biodiversity crisis that we're seeing.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 30:00

Um, but then yeah, if, if things aren't left in check, then then we'll only see captive populations explode I mean, of course, that was a stat that was put forward and when tiger king became really popular was and people were quite shocked the idea that there are more tigers in people's basements, you know, in ontario or in the us. Then there are tigers in the wild, because I think everyone walks around saying, oh well, I well, I need to help the tigers, I'm going to give money towards these conservation efforts, but at the same time, you've got more of these animals in people's basements and being kept as pets and, based on what you're saying now, it sounds like it's similar things happening both with tigers and, more and more, perhaps, with cheetahs as well.

Vanessa Amoroso : 30:42

Yeah, I mean, big cats are seen as a status animal and what's really interesting is the US Big Cat Public Safety Act. It came about through years and years of campaigning I think 20 years of campaigning at least animal welfare or conservation, if you, if you, if you hear it back, it's public safety and it only came about because of these big cats, tigers, that were kept in basements and then you'd have emergency responders being called out refusing to attend to the emergency because there is a big cat. So it's actually about human safety rather than the safety of animals. So I mean, that's an interesting tactic and maybe that's something that we need to look at more, you know, to get legislators to understand it's actually a situation not for the animals, but for the humans as well what, for you, has been the most surprising and startling thing you've learned while engaging with big cat trade or so many.

Vanessa Amoroso : 31:47

But I think, um, yeah, do you know what? I think it's funny because you and I were animal lovers, um, and we would go to this facility like this and see these other animal lovers, you know, really enjoying themselves and maybe not seeing through, like not seeing the suffering, and then going home and saying how great they had, a great time they had.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 32:13

I think that's hard to swallow sometimes yeah, I, I agree, and I mean I think it's a.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 32:19

It's an interesting part of my journey was actually my husband got into an argument with someone on Facebook that said you can't eat meat and love animals and he was like fuck that you can, and got into a big debate with them and, of course, then he got inundated with a whole bunch of people sending him posts about facts with regards to how animals are farmed and traded, et cetera, et cetera, and that led us on a very interesting journey in our house in terms of how we changed our practices.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 32:47

But I still maintain that it's false, because I think you can love animals and do really awful things with them, and sometimes I actually think it is our love. The idea that love isn't also problematic and can't lead to obsessions is, yeah, I think we need to check our love and our curiosity a bit, because part of this desire to like, touch tigers and be near lions is because we, we love them and we're fascinated by them and we, we're, we think they're incredible, but somehow our consumption is the most important thing in the equation. We, we don't really have respect for them.

Vanessa Amoroso : 33:26

Yeah, we put ourselves first and ultimately, love isn't enough for these animals.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 33:33

So what do you think should be done next? What is the when combating the legal and illegal trade of big cats?

Vanessa Amoroso : 33:40

Yeah, I mean, it's such a complex issue, but I think the most important thing is, you know the NGOs, um, you know we're working on the legislative side. We really need people to play their part as well. So, you know, be a bit more clued up on as to can you spot a true sanctuary, are you making the right touristic decisions, that kind of thing? Um, so we have a guide on our website called Travel Kind, which will help you on your holidays. You know, hopefully not spend your money to exploitative activities, but yeah, it's never ending. But you know, I do feel like there is hope and we are getting there because, ultimately, the situation's coming along since even a few years what kind of legislative changes are you proposing?

Vanessa Amoroso : 34:27

yeah, I mean, in south africa, we want to see the industry shut down and in 2021, the south african government at the time they did say that they want to phase out, um, the industry. So you know, that's huge, it is massive, it is absolutely massive. So, yes, they have kind kind of said that they would do that. We are waiting to figure out how. So the ask of us was that they do it Now. We're asking that they do it and they do it in a timely manner, rather than say we'll do it and we'll do it in 20 years, because, ultimately, those animals are still suffering. So there are some facilities that have put their names forward to kind of transition and as four paws.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 35:07

you know, we're sanctuary leaders, so we would like to help them and help them come to a better model that helps animals rather than just profits from them big cats and help the facilities that they currently have with captive animals to transition away from breeding and trading those animals to instead creating a sanctuary model so that the animals who currently exist can live as good a life as what is is possibly available to them exactly in south africa as the biggest exporter in the world.

Vanessa Amoroso : 35:43

You know, I think if we can do it here, we can do it anywhere. We we, along with other organizations uh published a roadmap. It's a roadmap to close tiger facilities of concern. So this is kind of a step-by-step analysis and a guide for facility owners to to understand how to transition and to stop what they're doing and do something better. So there is information out there and we do want to help. You know, we, we actually want to work in collaboration to help the animals rather than, you know, just bash, bash people and change the law and end it.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 36:15

We want to have a sustainable solution to these things yeah, of course, and I mean there's a lot of, like you said, it's a whole industry. There's jobs, there's people that would, and if you're not looking at the jobs and the money that's involved, people are not going to listen if you're not giving a feasible way to step outside, away and away from these industries. But that's really interesting. So it sounds like the key actions are one, at the individual level, to motivate people to think more about the types of ways in which they interact with animals and to recognize that they're part of a bigger thing. Two, to target actual state legislation and get states to phase out particular industries, target specific facilities and I'm guessing here also at the international level you mentioned earlier, to get revisions to documents like CITES so that they're not actually allowing and then facilitating this trade.

Vanessa Amoroso : 37:08

Exactly A multi-pronged approach for a very complex subject. And this is just for one animal species or like a couple of animal species. Can you imagine doing it for all wildlife and tackling the wildlife trade? It's a big job.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 37:22

Yeah, but I think this gets to what you were saying earlier about really tackling, because I mean, I know there is a challenge with the single issue campaign is that people focus on the single issue and they say, okay, well, now we've done this, we've achieved something, which is good, you have achieved something. And for the animals in that group, this is life-changing literally life-changing for them and prevents a lot of future harm being done to that species. But of course, there's a broader philosophical and social battle that needs to be fought about our mindset with regards to animals being something and things that are commodities to be bought and sold. I think until people really grapple with that themselves and fully accept it and it's a hard thing to accept, right, we all still slip into these loopholes still in our minds but I think until we really find that kind of respect dynamic, it's going to, like you said, it's going to continue to be really hard work, but I think more people are starting to have these conversations. As you said, there's reason to be hopeful, right.

Vanessa Amoroso : 38:21

I think so and I think like, if you think of, you know, lions and tigers and leopards they are some of the most iconic animals that we have Now. Can you really imagine a world without them, where we've consumed all the ones in the wild and we've consumed all the ones in captivity, and you know, that's not a world I want to live in. So I think that you know, with dethroned as well, it kind of puts that under the microscope and and hopefully people will learn a little bit more uh of what happens behind the scenes and really understand.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 38:49

okay, they can't be ignorant to it afterwards, right, that's the whole point, and if we can't get people to mobilize around lions and tigers and dolphins and whales, and who are arguably charismatic species, you know what? What hope are there is there for pangolins, who are the most trafficked animal, uh, in in the world? Or see it like sea otters that you were mentioning earlier. There are numerous animals that are being traded, who are invisible often in these discourses, uh, that we're talking about here. Let me give you an opportunity now. When, when, when, I told you that we'd be talking about the big cat trade, was there anything in particular that you said? Well, I have to make sure that people know about this. Is there anything that you want to make sure listeners are aware of when it comes to the big cat trade?

Vanessa Amoroso : 39:35

yeah, I think for listeners. Just please be aware. I know it can be so tempting to have that um tiger or that lion little cub in your arms or as a selfie, but please do consider the animal's life and you know after know that you know that's a moment in time for you, but that's a lifetime for them and even that lifetime is cut short and comes to a horrific end.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 40:01

So please be aware and and try and do your part, and by telling other people too and what about folks that are scholars, academics, um, animal studies, folks that are interested in researching and thinking about our social and economic relationships with animals? What work could we be doing to to think about the big cat trade like? What are the? What are the gaps in knowledge when it comes to this?

Vanessa Amoroso : 40:26

yeah, that's interesting, um, but I think, like we, we try and do welfare studies to kind of prove that the welfare of animals is better in sanctuaries than in in captivity, other kind of kinds of captivity. So, you know, really pushing for the sanctuary model to be adopted a bit more regularly. I think it would be interesting to do a full economic study around the world of big cat trade, which is something we'd like to look into. But yeah, I think all the voices really matter in this situation because we're really dealing with an iconic species and we're at a critical point now where what we decide will will be the future for these big cats. Do you at?

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 41:10

four paws work with uh scholars or academics. So let's say there is a phd student out there or a postdoc who's currently working on something related to tigers or lions or jaguars and they're generating really interesting information and data. Is that something you guys would be interested in learning more about?

Vanessa Amoroso : 41:27

Yeah, yeah, please do reach out, and we're always interested in the work that you're doing, and we have our science unit as well that can assist. There is a paper. Yeah, we're always talking to scientists, so actually, yeah, just reach out.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 41:41

Perfect, so I believe you have a quote ready for us. I know you said you're pretty excited to do this.

Vanessa Amoroso : 41:49

Yeah, yeah. So in the movie it has like a kind of start scene and an end scene and it's one quote that's been split into two but it's only three lines. So the movie starts with writing, kind of a bit like on a scene of sky, and it says in the eyes of a lion, one sees the wisdom of kings. When a king falls, his kingdom trembles. And then the movie starts which is.

Vanessa Amoroso : 42:19

I love the movie. When the movie is finished it says when, when a king falls, his kingdom trembles peace, steadies the throne. Uh, and I and I like that. I've never seen that quote before. It's like okay. So I did a little google search and I was like where is it from? And I did some more digging and it's actually written by the director of the film and he actually wrote about 100 different derivatives of the words until he landed on those.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 42:53

Wow.

Vanessa Amoroso : 42:54

And I just think it's beautiful because it sums up the film. What?

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 42:58

was nice about the film and it was quite interesting was how it wasn't focused on a specific cat species but really tried to highlight the trade as being problematic and how, no matter the species you're looking at, there's kind of these same mechanisms at play. Um, you know that are happening. But something that I think is interesting about that quote that we haven't really spoken about here is it says you know, peace can prevail, and that makes me think about human wildlife conflict, because, of course, these animals are not only under pressure from trading them, but there's things like habitat loss and leopards are increasingly in urban areas and this is having a huge impact on their populations in India, for example. Have you worked on human wildlife conflict as well?

Vanessa Amoroso : 43:46

We don't specifically work on that because we concentrate on the captivity angle, but I know others that do and I know that it's a big problem, as you say. You know humans are kind of encroaching on wild habitats and of course then there's always going to be some kind of conflict and where humans are always put first right. So but I think in the film what we try and showcase is that there are also communities that do live in harmony with the leopards and big cats, where people aren't harmed by them. So it does show that the solution is already out there. Um, but maybe a bit more onus needs to be put on living in harmony rather than living in conflict.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 44:33

yeah, I hear you and you were the big driver behind getting this film inspired and made and done right. This, this all came about because you you sent an email. Maybe you can tell us that story.

Vanessa Amoroso : 44:44

Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know I was the kid that loved Sundays in front of the TV watching nature documentaries and David Attenborough and Shark Week was my week. I loved it. So I've always been inspired of how film and TV can can reach young minds. So the film really was a dream come true and I had worked with Aaron before on shorter pieces. But I realized when I first joined 4Paws that we were.

Vanessa Amoroso : 45:12

We knew exactly what we were doing and asking for with the legislative change, but I was like we're missing this big mobilization moment. Right, so when people know about what's happening to big cats, they, they would be spurred into action. And you know, through research, we, we see, we see that you know it's not just happening in south africa, in europe, in asia, it's everywhere that big cats are and then everywhere that they're kept as pets as well, which is most places, um. So I really wanted to. You know there hadn't been a big cat trade movie as such, and Tiger King kind of was all about the scandal of people and nothing was said about the abuse of the animals. So the idea kind of was generated at that time. So, yeah, I sent an email to Aaron you know he's a decorated photojournalist making a name for himself, and I just thought I want to do this with him. And then we were fortunate enough to get Taramata on board as well.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 46:14

Yeah, an incredible, incredible film and the cinematography is outstanding and it is in a very different genre to Tiger King.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 46:20

Right, tiger King was trying to sell, I think, something salacious and outlandish and it was very illuminating and I think it did a lot of work to highlighting some of the problems of the trade, even if they weren't explicit about it.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 46:34

I think people were shocked to see some of these conditions. But again, I think something the film does really well is it kind of doesn't give you any neat conclusions. It doesn't say this is what should be done or this no-transcript, and a lot of people have to be involved to make this work, and that, for me, was the real big takeaway here is that it's a pretty sophisticated network illicitly and legally and to combat this is going to require a sophisticated network too. Right, like you said, a multi-pronged approach in response. So really really incredible, incredible work and thank you for all of the work you do. Right now, near the end, maybe you could tell us a little bit about 4Paws. I've had someone on the show from 4Paws before, but 4Paws some of the work you do, and if folks are interested in getting more involved as individuals, is there a way?

Vanessa Amoroso : 47:48

they can do so through 4Paws. We can't do what we do without our supporters. So, yeah, if you're interested in supporting us we're an international charity working for animal welfare around the world. So if you want to search 4Paws, then you'll be direct to our website and you can get more information about us. But we basically have something for everyone.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 48:09

We work on wildlife, we work on pandemics and trying to end those farm animal issues and then companion animal issues as well yeah, it's a massive, massive organization and since working moving to austria, it's interesting because I mean, I'm south african and I knew very little about four paws when I was in south africa, um, and to be fair, I wasn't in the animal studies world or anything then either. But since moving to austria, the amount of work you guys do for consciousness raising is really quite remarkable. The number of posters up around the city that are saying things about pigs or things about cats or whatever it is. There's foxes I've been seeing a lot of foxes lately. There's a lot of knowledge mobilization and kind of making these issues visible in public space, which is quite interesting, because I don't think I've ever been to a place where I've seen as many posters for animal welfare and animal rights issues in the public space. So it's really quite remarkable. So congratulations to your communications team.

Vanessa Amoroso : 49:15

Thank you, thank you. I see it like you know, we're trying to give a voice to the voiceless Right and you know our vision is hopefully like a world where people see or respect animals with empathy and understanding, right. So you know, hopefully that's a lovely world to live in. So that's what we're striving for.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 49:35

Okay. Well, what are you currently working on now? Are you still working on the big cat trade?

Vanessa Amoroso : 49:40

Yes, yes, yeah, for the foreseeable future and we've got a nice big new strategy from next year which will see us work in a few more new areas of geographical areas. We also are working towards the online screening, so there will be one in October so hopefully people can see the film there. And yeah, like lots of society's work, coming up next year is a big conference of parties, so we will be there waving the flag for big cats.

Claudia Hirtenfelder: 50:07

Great. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for telling us a little bit about the big cat trade and good luck with all of the changes and, hopefully, the many, many screenings of Dethroned, which was really great to watch, and I encourage everyone to go ahead and watch it when it's available. All right, thank you. Thank you so much, so much, for joining me on the show. Thank you, thanks so much. Thank you to vanessa marosa for being a wonderful guest. Thank you also to animals in philosophy, politics and law and ethics. Apple for sponsoring this podcast, to jeremy john for the logo and gordon clark for the bed music. This episode was produced and edited by myself. This is the Animal Turn with me, claudia Hüttenfelder.

Vanessa Amoroso : 51:25

This is another iRaw podcast.