Beneath Your Bed Podcast
Beneath Your Bed Podcast
The Human Monster of Halloween
Halloween has its pantheon of monsters – ghouls, ghosts, werewolves, and vampires, to name a few. But what about the monsters who live among us? Sure, sometimes evil arrives wearing a grotesque mask – but, other times, it can appear downright mundane. Whatever shape evil takes, those who dare to trust often never see it coming. Tonight, we’ll share two tales of when innocence and evil meet.
I'm Jenna Sullivan and I'm Jen Lee. And we'd like to welcome you to beneath your bed, a podcast where we drag out all those fears that lurk beneath our beds from the paranormal to true crime, to the simply strange along the way, we'll be drinking cocktails and sharing stories from our Appalachian upbringings. Halloween has its Pantheon of monsters goals, ghosts, werewolves, and vampires to name a few. But what about the monsters who live among us? Sure. Sometimes evil arrives wearing a grotesque mask, but other times it can appear downright mundane, whatever shape evil takes. Those who dare to trust often never see it coming. Jen. Hey Jen, how are you doing tonight? I am doing okay. How are you? I'm doing great. I'm looking forward to Halloween. So am I, I love Halloween. It's probably, well, I mean, I like Christmas, but Halloween is right up there for me. I love it. Christmas is my favorite as you know, but I do love Halloween too. I don't get any trick-or-treaters but still love it. What are you planning to do on Halloween night? Um, we're not going to do anything. We're just gonna sit here and wait for no one to show up t o, to eat our candy. Wait for the ghostly. R appings on your window. W hen y ou're a window pane, we, you know, we give the good out, like, you know, re ceive p eanut butter cups. I guess that's probably not the greatest thing to g ive out. Some people have peanut allergies. Now le t m e t hink about it. So maybe it's not so good, but basically the chocolate and not the stuff that you would get some times w here we w ould trick or treat. Yeah. Well the worst was like the l ion's club candy. Do you remember that people would buy like five pound bags from the l ions club? And it was like these, some were orange and some were black. It was like this really nasty taffy. And I think that was, that was up there with like some of the worst what's the li on's c lub only have no idea what that's I do n't k n ow. I think they're active everywhere, but it's kind of, I think it's men ki nd o f l i ked t he, I li ked t he elk lodge, like the elk lodge. Yeah. And I think th eir p articular charity is they ra ised m oney for the blind. So I think they just sit around and get loaded like they do at the Elk s lo dge. Like I did, like I did this weekend. Yeah. You shut it down this weekend. So I'm not going to be drinking tonight, boys and girls. Um, yeah, I am off the hooch for the foreseeable future. It's going to, I was, yeah, I was not, well, I was not, well, I didn't realize she did the shots of vodka. He did. I just, the champagne, I sort of surreptitiously poured them into my champagne glass and I downed it and it was raspberry and it was like, Oh my God, it's like a raspberry that's on fire going down. My gullet is bad. I'm paying for it. Now. It happens to the best of us. It does. It does. But you controlled yourself pretty well. Cause we, I think we don't get to see each other that often. So when we do, it's like, I think I, I don't know. I guess I thought like I had to really tie one on or something.
Speaker 2:We were doing this from afar again. We were out on your front porch. So we were social distance. Yep. Tonight I'm having, what's called a headless horseman. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I'd never heard of it before, but you know, I've been searching for new cocktails all the time. Try to change it up here. So it has vodka. She probably don't want to hear that Angostura bitters and ginger rail with a it's garnished with a it's garnished with an orange, orange slice
Speaker 1:orange J eanette. Well, that would kind of look like the pumpkin head on K nickerbocker cream, right? Or a quad core.
Speaker 2:What is it from the nightmare before Christmas? Jack Love
Speaker 1:Jack Skellington. You know, I just saw that movie. U m, I saw most of it maybe about a week or two ago. It is ch arming.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm speaking of movies I saw, I actually saw, or we saw barrette
Speaker 1:For the weekend. We saw it too.
Speaker 2:It's crazy. I don't even know what to say about it. It's hard to even watch, but you can't turn away
Speaker 1:Glee and you feel a little guilty in parts. Like there were parts where I feel like, Oh my God, I, as a moral person, I can't laugh at it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think the, the part that I like the best, which I'm ashamed to admit is when they went to the debutante ball.
Speaker 1:That was my favorite part too. It was so wrong.
Speaker 2:It was so wrong. I don't know when. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So anyway, well it's going to be a good weekend. Halloween is coming up and yeah, I'm looking forward to just like watching scary movies and eating lots of sugar, all that good stuff. So tonight to get everybody in the mood for Halloween, we are going to be telling a Halloween theme story, or at least a story that's set right around here.
Speaker 2:It's a story about monsters, but human monsters. Exactly.
Speaker 1:So with that, let's get started. So this takes place in the seventies, the decade of our conceptions, I guess, and the heyday of our childhoods. Although I feel like the eighties was the heyday of my childhood too, but the year is 1974 and it's Halloween night. So if you can remember back when you were a kid, I can remember this really vividly, you know, you suffer through the school day, all day, just like longing for the bell to ring. So you can go home like gobble down your dinner and then put on your costume and get the hell out of that house and, you know, get as much candy as possible. And I feel like there, there was an electric energy. You pass the same houses and trees and cars and stuff every day. But it was different on Halloween night. It just felt different. You're right.
Speaker 2:You are so right. You know, you could be out legitimately with your parents' permission.
Speaker 1:Like even by the time we were kids, at least younger kids, like I would say most of the, of the seventies, I feel like they're kind of worn a lot of tricks left in Halloween. I remember my, my mom, she was like, you know, you will not go out without supervision. She probably did that till I was 16, but you know, she had to go with me. She had to know whose house we were going to. I don't know if your parents were like that, but they were, mine were like really protective. And I think that was kind of a theme in the seventies where kids earlier, like in earlier decades, it would be kind of a free for all. But by the time we were kids, like, I feel like that was changing.
Speaker 2:I think you're right. My parents let me, when I got to be a little bit older to go out with my neighbors, my friends. But other than that, before that, no, there's no way they would allow that. And we were only allowed to go. We didn't have a block. It was actually the shape of a horseshoe. So we were
Speaker 1:Like, so that was the only place you could go. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was just kind of lazy trick-or-treating and probably my parents were like, get the outta here. I don't want to go. I know my dad certainly wanted no part of it.
Speaker 1:So I mean, it's interesting. It must've been a chore, I guess, for parents, but you know, they worked all day and they come home and their kids are like raring to go, but it was just so magical as a child. I just have the fondest memories of it
Speaker 2:When my daughter, when she was maybe around two and we put the kids in strollers, I mean i n the cool moms and we would actually meet at another mom's house for drinks. And then we put our drinks in a container and then we put it on, y ou k now, one of th ose r eally big, u h, b aby strollers or di fferent t h at y ou could run with one of those. So we would walk around like that, like a jog. I don't think all of us
Speaker 1:Or something. I think if I had been a mother, I would want to hang with you guys. You guys sound like you were cool
Speaker 2:To think of ourselves as the cool moms, but maybe it was really, uh, an addiction issue. But anyway,
Speaker 1:Alcoholic, mumps, think back in the, um, in the seventies, I, I don't know exactly when this, this rumor started, but you started hearing stories of candy being tampered with. And I vividly recall my mom and my aunt, my grandmother, who was, so over-protective talking about that, like, don't accept an Apple. It could have a razorblade in it.
Speaker 2:The Apple one, the Apple was like the most pervasive, sinister story.
Speaker 1:is going to give an Apple, like if I got an Apple, I'd be like, I don't want this. I m ean, I don't want fruit. You got t he w rong kid. I mean, I can remember getting those little packs of raisins and thinking, what the hell is t his?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So anyway, I just feel like with a razor blade story with the apples, it also later on, you know, apply to just regular candy as well. Cause we had to pour ours out on the floor and we had to go through it. Our parents had to look through it before
Speaker 1:Same here. Absolutely. I remember once finding this piece of hard candy, um, it was like bread, I guess it was cherry or something. And it had like a big black spot in it. And my mom was like, you know, you can not keep that. And I'm like, well, it's a piece of hard candy. I don't really want that anyway. It's LSD if only. So yeah. But you know, that was, that was definitely a thing in the seventies. And I think people were very wary. I mean, they were even some places I know would like x-ray the kids candy to make sure there were no pins or razorblades or something like that. But you know, if you've never heard of that. Yeah. It actually, I can remember them offering that service, um, or hearing about it at some point. I mean, you know, I think the seventies were kind of a, a dark era anyway. I mean, there's a lot of political unrest and economic struggle and just uncertainty, you know, factories were closing and I mean, people were just, yeah, they were struggling. I mean, it kind of reminds me of 2020 in a way. I was going to say unlike today. Yeah. But so I think we can all imagine Halloween nights of your, in what it was like. And so if you take yourself back to 1974, we have two kids that I'm going to talk about. Their names were Tim and Elizabeth O'Brien and they were, they were just so excited. They couldn't go out, couldn't wait to go out and hit the streets and get as much candy as possible. So they lived in a suburban Houston, Texas neighborhood. And you know, the adults were worried about all of these d angers, but kids, that was the last thing on their mind. They just wanted to have fun. Um, so this family, the O'Brians, the parents were, um, Ronald and they mean O'Brien Damien is an odd name. I think. So the parents kind of like you, the group of cool moms, they decided they were gonna meet up with another S another set of parents. This was a guy, a man, and a woman and their two children, I think also a boy and a girl. And so they went over to their house for dinner and drinks. So I guess they were even doing this in the seventies, J en. U m, and they had drinks and then they were all g oing t o take the kids out. The family, they were hanging out with their last name was B ates. I can't remember their children's names. So the O'Bryan kids, Elizabeth was little, she was only five and Tim was eight. And both of them, this is so cute. They were both wearing planet of the apes costumes. It was a really kind of a nasty night. Although to me, those were always the best kinds of Halloween nights, where it was kind of drizzly and cold and you know, it just very atmospheric. So it was that kind of night. And everybody else, all the other adults, they got sick of being out in the rain. So they're like, you know, we just want to go home early, but I'm Ronald. O'Brien the dad of the two kids I'm talking about. He was like, you know, I'll, I'll hang out with them. I'll just continue taking the kids around so they can finish their tour of the neighborhood. So he was a really nice guy, you know, he was family man, like I said, and he was deacon at his local church. That means nothing to me. Well, it doesn't m eet either. And it was a Baptist church. Joan, I hate to God, hate to make it worse for you. So towards the end of the evening, um, the kids were kind of going to their final houses and they went up to this one house and it was dark. But you know how it was like, when you were a kid, I remember like, I'd give it a try. Anyway. If my mom would let me and, you know, see if anybody was home. Well, nobody was so they knocked and knocked and nobody came to the door. So they were like, O h, screw this. We only have so much time left. We're g onna run over to the next house. So their dad stayed behind. U m, and he thought, well, I'm just going to see. So he knocks and he comes back and he meets up with the kids a few minutes later and he has this tremendous treat. It's like the best thing they've gotten all evening. He has five giant pixie sticks, which is like pirate, l oot. I feel like it's v ery k id. You remember those things? Oh yeah. I still love them. You can still get t hem. Can you get the giant ones? I mean, I've seen the little ones, but these w ere those really long ones. And l ike, like kind of like t hose, you would go on like a sugar go into a sugar coma when you ate one of those. But it was
Speaker 2:A huge one. Y eah.
Speaker 1:I mean, those were kind of hard to come by it. I think I maybe had those a couple of times in my life, but they were amazing. So, so he got this great treat and there were five of them. So he gave one each of the kids who were trick or treating, t hey were the four kids he gave, he gave them each one of the big pixie sticks. And then he took the other one home. And so when they got home, they were, you know, they were still getting tri ck-or-treaters th emselves. And Ronald gave a trick or treater that he actually knew from church this little, 10 year old boy named Whitney parkers. And I don't know if your parents did this with you, but the O'Brians, they would let their kids pick out one candy to eat before bed. I think I ate more than one. I don't think my mom could control when it came to like eating. I think we,
Speaker 2:I have more than one, but yeah, I think there was a limit set like the first night. And then after that, y eah,
Speaker 1:It was like a free for all. I think that's true. And I remember even packing s ome up and like taking it to school the next day and trading it with people. And so the kids pick o ut their candy and I'm not sure what Elizabeth, the little one chose, but Tim, I mean, this he's a smart kid. He chose the pixie stick. That's totally what I wo uld h a ve c hosen to b e cause t hose things were delicious. So his little hands, like, you know, he's only wha t, w hat did I say? Eight years old? Um, so, you know, manual dexterity probably wasn't all that it should be. Um, so he co uldn't get it op en. Um, so his dad helped him, but um, he opened it. He ate the pixie stick, but he told his dad he' s li ke, dad, it tastes bitter. So Ronald ran. Yeah. And he got him some Kool-Aid and said here, you know, Was hington ta ke a drink of this, wash it down. And so we did. And then a few minutes later, the report was that Tim cried out to his dad and said, daddy, daddy, my stomach hurts. So they call an ambulance and you know, they put Tim in the ambulance, rushed him to the hospital, but he dies before he even makes it to the hospital. Now it's so sad, isn't it? It's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking. Um, and I think like, I don't know, you can kind of relate to it. Cause we were kids around that time too. This is somebody that could have, we could have played with or, you know, so the police, they called the police. Um, because by this time they suspect something, you know, there's some kind of foul play a kid doesn't just drop, drop dead after eating a piece of candy. So the police are like rushing around the neighborhood, trying to figure out how much of this candy is there. Who got it, you know, all of this. So they come, they determined. Um, Elizabeth, I think I mentioned she already, she had picked a different kind of candy. So she had not eaten her pixie stick, they to the Bates, his house, which is, you know, the family they were trick or treating with. And thankfully, no one there had eaten the candy, but mrs. Bates said, she'd been really tempted to steal any one of the pixie sticks from her kids. You know ho w I've never been a parent, but I'm sure I would be filtering candy off of them if I were. So you know how that is. So anyway, the police go to Whitney Parker's house and they tell his parents what, you know, what's happened in his mother becomes so frantic ca use l i ke s he's going around to e verywhere trying to find this pi xie s tick and she can't find it. So they go upstairs to Whitney's room and they, they opened the door and he's asleep with the pixie stick clutched in his hand. Oh my God. I know isn't that that's just wild to me. So like Tim, he couldn't open it on his own. And it turns out the reason that these kids were having a hard time opening the candy is that it had been cut. And u m, like the top had been cut open and then tampered with, and then kind of folded over and stapled. When you think somebody would have noticed that. I feel like as a kid, but maybe, you know, who knows? I wouldn't notice that as an adult. Yeah. I probably wouldn't but I don't know. It's hard to say. So in the end it turns out that, u m, Tim was the only person to die in an autopsy revealed that he had ingested enough potassium, cyanide to kill two or three adults, which is just crazy. It's just like that poor little boy. So the dad, because remember it was the dad who went to that, went to the house and it was dark. And, but he got the neighbors to, to open up and they given him a pixie stick. So the police, you know, wanted to work with him to like try to find out where this was. And he said he couldn't quite remember, which seemed a little strange because they'd only gone down two streets. You know, they kind of stayed where they knew it was safe and they knew people. So then he said, no, I'm remembering something. I'm remembering something. U m, all I can remember is like a hairy arm reaching out of the door. Maybe, maybe J en, I know you're reading my mind. So police c anvas the neighborhood and they go all around. I s it turns out nobody on the route that the kids had taken had given out any of these giant pixie sticks, which is a little curious. So soon enough it's, it's the little boy's funeral Tim's funeral. And, um, you know, I already mentioned Ronald was a deacon in the church. Um, he also, I think sang, he was in the choir. Um, I don't know if he was choir director, but he's saying, so he's saying this him, he took a him and I can't remember which one it was, but he basically replaced like all the G S, like the places where Jesus was mentioned and changed it to his son's name. So it was like, Tim does this, or Tim does that. I guess some people there a nd found it really moving, but there were some other people who just felt like something was not quite right. It was just a little off. And so one of, one of those people was Jim Bates, the guy that from the other family that they were trick or treating with. And he noticed, um, that, that Ronald, when he was in the, I guess when he was in the church that he ran like right smack into his son's casket and he didn't blink an eye, it was almost like he didn't even notice the casket was there. He was just oblivious to it. So Jim found that strange. Um, I don't know if I would've found that strange, I would think, well somebody's so grief-stricken that they're not even aware of their surroundings, but he just got an odd feeling. Isn't it turns out Jim was not the only one who had some, some odd feelings. So literally the morning after Tim passed away, his dad called his insurance agent and he told him about his son's death and asked to cash out the policy right away. And he had taken out a policy on both children. U m, his wife would later say she didn't know about either, you know, that he had a policy in either kid, but it gets worse because he had taken out another policy. I think, I think on both kids, just a couple of days before Halloween. So, you know, it's looking pretty bad if you dig a little deeper, you know, beneath this nice guy veneer, Ronald O'Brien's life was not actually going all that well. So yeah, so the family had moved to this suburban Houston neighborhood, but it wasn't a nice neighborhood. Like they had moved from. So they had owned a house and I can't remember the names of these neighborhoods, but they'd owned a house and he had lost a job. I think he went through something like 21 jobs in 10 years, which, Oh my gosh, that's a lot, especially for them because you know, at that time you got a job and you held on to it. Exactly. And you would have a pension and, but it was not like that for him. And I don't know why he couldn't hold a job, but he couldn't. And so he was always in between work and he owed something like a hundred,$100,000 worth of debt. Um, which in the seventies, you know, like the early seventies, that's a lot of money. Yeah. That was really uncommon too. Yeah. That's, that's really true. It wasn't common to have that much debt. And so the family lost their house, um, to foreclosure. And so they had moved to this other neighborhood and it's kind of poignant because when they went trick or treating with the other family, the Bates is the Bates is actually, um, I think they, they still lived in the nice neighborhoods. So they came over or they had gone to their house and they came back somewhere. I forget exactly where they trick or treated. Maybe it was in the Bates, his neighborhood, you know, it was like they were seeing their old friends, but they had kind of come down on the world. So there's more talk around the town and others, other people start to say, you know, that Ronald has actually talked to them about how to get potassium cyanide. I mean, back in the day, this was 74. So I don't think he'd be Googling it. He wouldn't be looking it up on a computer, but he had gone to this chemical supply shop and he told the guy that he wanted a lethal dose, but he wanted the cheapest price. I know isn't that insane. And so the guys that I know, like the, I guess the smallest amount he could sell him was five pounds. And he's like, no, that's too much like that. Maybe he didn't. And I kind of wondered what his thinking was. Did he think like I can't hide five pounds of potassium cyanide or, or maybe he was just a cheapskate and didn't want to pay for five pounds and I'm not even really sure what people buy cyanide for. I mean, I don't know if you can go to the home Depot and ask for cyanide, potassium, cyanide, like, do you, what do you use it for? But anyway,
Speaker 2:I don't know. Yeah. I have no idea. Like if you could get it or for some reason, I want to say that, I want to think that you can, but maybe not, maybe they're poisoning people up through the eighties with Sinai. Maybe you can't get it now. It seems like antifreeze was like the popular thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I mean, I, and I've heard, and this is morbid, but the cyanide poisoning is one of the most horrible deaths. Like, so the day after, u m, the day after Tim's funeral, Ronald is charged with murder. U m, he's arrested, he's, u h, charged with actually with murder and attempted murder and he pleads innocent. He said I had absolutely nothing to do with this. He got some lawyers and their whole defense kind of revolved around the dangers of Halloween, like stranger danger, mysterious, dangerous strangers, you know, all the threats that were out there. So their premise was that there was some unknown or, you know, uncaught killer on the jury didn't buy it. So they deliberated for all of 45 minutes. And on June 3rd, 1975, really just a few months, the j udicial system moved quickly back then, u m, he was found guilty and he was also sentenced to death. Did he actually get death? Well, his story, I mean, his story is not a happy one. U m, apparently he was, a nd this is a quote, absolutely friendless in jail that people just hated him. You know, we, we've all heard about how people are really in jail or can be really hard on people who harm children. And I think that was the feeling about him. So I mean, his execution, u m, w a s delayed multiple times, you know, went through appeals and things like that. And I think we're used to that happening today too. It takes a long time to go from a sentence to an actual execution, but there was one state district judge who ordered his, he wanted his execution to happen on October 31st. And he offered to personally drive him there. Now tha t did not stand. So he was not executed at that time, but he did finally die or was killed by lethal injection in March, 1984. And he was only 39 years old, you know, think about when he was. So that was 84. The crime happened 10 years earlier. So he had been 29 30 when he killed his son. Like wha t a waste of your life.
Speaker 2:And I wonder like if his wife, if I doubt if she was ever interviewed, you know, years later,
Speaker 1:She actually was. Um, and I don't have a lot of information about that, but I have a little bit. So as for Ronald, um, he maintained that he was innocent til the end. He never, he never copped to the crime, but um, his wife, they need, uh, she said, you know, I mentioned before she said she had no idea that he had any insurance policies on the kids. Um, so the, and there was no evidence to suggest that she was involved. And so that's heartbreaking to imagine losing your child like that, but to think that your spouse is the one, u m, D anny did divorce Ronald right after his conviction. And I, I read that she later remarried. I've really been thinking about Elizabeth, you know, the little five-year-old and what her life was like in the wake of that, you know, I mean, she was old enough to remember
Speaker 2:Did Dany like stand by him during the trial.
Speaker 1:She did, but it sounded very lukewarm to me. I didn't have a ton of information on that, but it sounded like she was kind of going through the motions of standing by him, but was kind of ready. I think I read that. She said she wanted to believe him, but like in her heart of hearts, she knew, you know, that it was, he was lying and that, so, um, what I'm going to end with just, it just sends shivers down my spine. So in an interview that was published, um, by Damian, she recollected that she remembered her, her husband talking to her about the Bible story of Abraham and Isaac. Do you re I know neither one of us are super churchy, but I know that story. You probably know it too.
Speaker 2:Is that the one where God a sked him to sacrifice his son? Exactly. I was g onna say, I'm, I'm all too familiar with that one. And that was th e s tory. I thought he h ad shared it with you where I was late to Bible study school or Bible school. And when I came in, like they were all coloring pictures. And when yo u're a kid everyone's chosen the best already by then. And you know, you got what you got and I got stuck with, u m, I got stuck with a, was it Abraham? The father? Yes. I got stuck with the one Abraham. He has a son on top of this mountain and he has his kn ife raised up in the air. Like he's getting ready to plunge it into a sun. A nd that's a picture. They gave you a c o l or. I you not. Yes, that was the picture I got.
Speaker 1:What's a little seven year old or eight year old Jen. Think of that.
Speaker 2:I was just completely, I was stunned by it because I, I was like, this is horrible. What father would do this and who the would w ant t o, you know, c ould want to color that? And I didn't even finish coloring it. And I think I s cratched it all out. I think I even u sed, I think he even used like a red crayon, you know, for the blood or whatever. Wow. Yeah. H e
Speaker 1:Probably got some extra gold stars for that little detail,
Speaker 2:But isn't that like that's, to me is an adult that's on believable. That is, that's what happens when you're late to B ibles.
Speaker 1:So creepy. Um, I have a bar Sunday school. I have a Sunday school story to tell you, but I should leave it for another time. Um, although I desperately want to tell you, but I also please share. Well, all right. I feel like I'm missing the appropriate solemnity of the ending of my story, but telling the stupid story. But I remember, I don't know if I've ever, I don't think I've ever told you this. So I, in Sunday school and I had actually, this was my, my brief time of faith. I had prayed that I would be the only kid to show up because I had a really burning question that I wanted to ask, but I was afraid to ask it because I was afraid people would laugh at me. So I don't know, I must've been six or seven. Maybe
Speaker 2:I thought you were gonna, he started with a six and I thought you were going to say 16,
Speaker 1:1663. So, so I show up and lo and behold a miracle had occurred because I was the only kid in Sunday school. And I can't remember the name of my Sunday school teacher, but she was this very sweet lady, you know? And so I, I work up the courage to ask my question and I think I wait almost till the end. And I'm like, I'm going to miss my chance. I better ask it. So I asked her and I'm like, so the Abraham that I've been hearing about is he the same Abraham because Abraham Lincoln and I don't remember what she said, but, um, but she said, no, dear. I mean, I think something like, no, dear, you know, they're different. Um, and to her credit, she did not laugh at me, but I often wonder like what she, what she said later, my daughter,
Speaker 2:She was young. She asked me she was really young. She asked me in the car. Um, if it was, she said, was it George Washington? Or was it Jesus, I cut down the cherry tree.
Speaker 1:So cute. But that's the innocence of kids. Right. You know, and I feel like this story that we're telling, it's a horrible story and at the heart of it, what makes it, so, ah, I don't know, this, the story really, I think hit me because it has all that nostalgia of Halloween and what it's like to be a kid and to be innocent and to have that innocence. And, but at the heart of it is something so evil, you know? And, and that's, that's what this story is. And, and just going back to the Abraham story, um, Damian had said that she, she remembered, uh, Ronald telling her, you know, I often think about that story of Abraham preparing to sacrifice Isaac and I, and my wonder, what Abraham felt in that moment. So that's the story, you know, and it's really, you know, I'm curious what you think of it. I found it incredibly sad. Um,
Speaker 2:When I was listening to this, it really made me appreciate having a good dad and, you know, the importance of having good parents, a good father. So, absolutely. Yeah. So let's, um, let's toast. We can raise your glass of water and I'll raise my, a headless horseman and let's let's toast to having great dads. That's right. Here's here's to our dads, to dads. Thank you to everyone who listens. The best thing you can do to help us grow is to like review and subscribe on iTunes and even better yet tweet about us or post about us on Facebook. Tell your friends if you think they would like us and have a good night,
Speaker 3:[inaudible].