Special Guest Episode: Sins of the Son - The Heinous Crimes of Hadden Clark

Are certain people simply born evil or does life sometimes have a way of warping a good soul into something unrecognizably horrible? Tonight’s story of one deranged killer, Hadden Clark, will have you asking that very question.

We’ll be joined by a special guest who worked with Clark as a corrections officer during the early days of Clark’s incarceration. To protect our guest’s identity, we’ll be referring to him as “Jim” throughout tonight’s episode. 

Have a topic suggestion? Email us at beneathyourbedpod@gmail.com

Forensic Files. “Dressed to Kill.” Season 7, Episode 25. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2610710/

Havill, Adrian. “Born Evil: A True Story of Cannibalism and Serial Murder.” December 9, 2011. https://www.amazon.com/Born-Evil-Cannibalism-Serial-Murder/dp/0312978901

Jeffrey, Karen. “Hadden Clark returned to Cape to search for graves.” Cape Code Times. January 5, 2011. 

https://www.capecodtimes.com/article/20000410/news01/304109982

Jennings, Veronica T. “Murder Suspect's 'Lifestyle is Getting Even.'” Washington Post. Sunday, November 15, 1992

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/library/dorr/dorr111592.htm

Murderpedia entry on Hadden Clark (this site contained multiple articles on him; do you think I need to list them individually?) www.murderpedia.org

Shaver, Katherine and Duggan, Paul. “Murder Charge Is Filed In '86 Case of Missing Girl Md. Suspect in Prison for '92 Slaying.” Washington Post.  September 24, 1998. 

Wilkinson, Alex.  “A Hole In The Ground.” New Yorker. September 2020. http://reprints.longform.org/a-hole-in-the-ground

Wikipedia article on Hadden Clark. www.wikipedia.org

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Are certain people born evil or does life sometimes have a way of warping a good soul into something unrecognizably horrible. Tonight's story of one deranged killer Hadden. Clark. We'll have you asking that very question. We'll be joined by a special guest who worked with Clark as a corrections officer during the early days of Clark's incarceration to protect our guests identity. We'll be referring to him as Jim throughout tonight's show Jen, Hey Jen, how are you? I'm doing really well tonight. How are you? I'm doing great. I'm really excited about tonight's episode. I am the first guest. I know the fact that we have our first guest is so exciting. Maybe we're actually becoming legitimate. I feel like that. So, so yeah. So we want to introduce our guests. Whose name is Jim and Jim? Um, we're so excited to have you here this evening.

Speaker 2: 0:54

Well, thank you for having me. I don't know how legitimate I'm going to make you, but we'll give it a shot.

Speaker 1: 0:59

Trust me anything, any little tiny bit of legitimacy. It's going to be more than what we already have. So, so we're, we're just excited. You're here. And I'm just going to go ahead and talk a bit about what we'll be discussing this evening, and then we'll, we'll talk about drinks and all of that. But so the reason we, we decided to invite Jim is because he has some really up close and personal interaction with a really, really scary figure. So we're going to be discussing the life and crimes of Hadden Clark, who may or may not be a serial killer, depending on what evidence you want to permit. And we'll talk more about that later, but he definitely killed two people in a really, really horrible way, a young woman and a young girl on really, really awful crimes. So Jim actually worked with Hatton at the Montgomery County correctional facility in Rockville, Maryland. And so has really some interesting insights, just I think working in, you know, corrections in general, but also working with a criminal, the likes of Hadden Clark. So we're going to talk about Hadden's life upbringing. We're going to talk about his crimes and then we're going to really delve in with Jim and get some insight into what it's like to work with someone like that. But before we do that, we want to talk about what we're drinking, because that's really important to us. So Jen, let's start with you. What are you drinking? I am having a coconut rum punch. Beautiful. It's such a pretty color. Thank you. It calls for coconut rum. It also has pineapple in it. It has OJ. It also has some fruit punch as well. And lemonade forgot about the lemon rum. Does it have in it altogether? It has three ounces of rum, but I doubled up. So Lord have mercy because I was going to say that's a lot of mixer, you know? So I thought, well, that's more honey, that's more fruit juice than drink in there. But I guess not with six ounces of rum in lime as well. Jim, what are you drinking? Cause we did warn you that you needed to bring something to drink.

Speaker 2: 2:51

Yes, I had nothing. So bougie or fancy is what you guys usually do. I am drinking brew from Dogfish.

Speaker 1: 2:58

Ooh, nice. We were just talking about Dogfish had the other day brew. That sounds fun. What is it? Did you say it's an IPA or

Speaker 3: 3:06

No, it's a, um, it's kind of a mixture of a need and a wood barrel aged beer kind of, um, it's hard to describe they, they, it gets its name from the miles Davis album brew and you know, they got his picture on the label.

Speaker 1: 3:20

Oh, that's so cool. If they come in like these really large bottles, right. Just for a special occasion.

Speaker 3: 3:28

That's right. And it's 9%. Wow.

Speaker 1: 3:31

Wow. Maybe not as much as gen six shots of coconut rums. It's still pretty good. We'll see how bougie I am by the end of this episode, something tells me not very bougie. Jen actually got me for Christmas. A bottle of God. We may shoe, which is this Japanese plum wine. And I ha I'm just telling Jim this. I know I told you this last time, Jen, but, um, I got super excited cause I thought it was a hundred, there was a hundred percent on the bottle and I was like, whew, this is going to be great. But it turns out it was just 14% alcohol. So it wasn't like pure green plum line. Anything

Speaker 3: 4:05

That'd be pretty rough. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:06

It's probably just as well that it wasn't, but it was good. I'm actually drinking. Um, and I'll let you come to your own conclusions about why, but I made a peach martini this evening. It is, I used two ounces of vodka about an ounce of sham, bore of course, peach nectar, I think two ounces of that. And then about a half ounce of lime juice and then garnished with raspberries. It's really good. And you're on your second, second. Yeah, I quadrupled it. In fact, like I made so much that it was overflowing my shaker, so I probably should not quite try quadrupling in the future. We'll see how you

Speaker 3: 4:38

Fare tonight. Jen's level yet. Yeah. Jenny,

Speaker 1: 4:40

You may have a lot of editing ahead of you as always. I'm sure I will. So should we just jump in? Cause I feel like we have a lot to talk about tonight and I want to make sure that we use our time. Well, since we have Jim with us and he make us sick of us when he can get off of here after, after too long and he's already been on here over an hour. So Jen, I think you're going to start us off, right? Yeah. I'm going to start us off. I'm just going to talk about, and Clark's upbringing his family because I think it's, he has a really complicated upbringing and a really interesting one at the same time and not in a good sort of way. So hadn't his full name is Hadden Irving Clark. And he was born on July 31st, 1952 in Troy New York. And he was the second of four children. And I think it's important too, to just kind of go on the birth order of his siblings because you know, they're important part of the story as well. His oldest brother was Bradfield Hadden Clark, and he was born in 1951. And then the head and Clark we're talking about tonight had an Irving Clark. He was born, as I said, July 31st, 1952. Then there was the birth of his brother Jeffrey or I guess, would it be Jeffrey or Jeff Jeffrey? We have a friend who spells her kid's name like that. And it's just Jeffrey it's G E O F F R E Y. And he was born in 1955

Speaker 4: 5:58

And then the youngest is Alison Clark and she was born in 1959. They moved a lot when they were young, they moved up to like two times a year and the oldest brother Bradfield, he also, he, all the children have problems, but Bradfield had a real bad or had a real bad problem with his temper. He angered easily. He would lash out, but he was considered, he was considered very successful at least in the beginning. So once they started to become a little bit more settled, the mom Flavio is her name. She started to suspect that her kids were troubled one as I was talking earlier with, with, uh, Bradfield angry and easily and lashing out, especially with hadn't, he had a lot of problems, like problems with balance and he would trip very easily and she ended up taking him to a number of specialists and he was so clumsy or he tripped so easily. And so frequently that as a small child, his mom's, his mom Flavio's solution to this was to put padded tape around his head. So he wouldn't get, yeah, so he wouldn't get a concussion.

Speaker 1: 7:07

I wonder if that was embarrassing for him like with other kids or maybe he was too young to really care.

Speaker 4: 7:13

I would venture to say that perhaps it was embarrassing. He was probably too young at that time. So when he was four, she sent him to this, um, yells study center where he saw doctors and different specialists and they determined that they said that he had cerebral palsy and some mild brain damage and kids were afraid of him because not only would he lash out like his brother, he would get really angry lash out. He did it far more often, but kids were afraid of him because of that. So they didn't want to play with him because he would get mad. He would physically try to hurt them or sulk when he didn't get his way. And they were just, they were really scared. So he didn't really have anybody to, to play with. There was one family in particular that the Clarks would get together with and I think have dinner and that sort of thing. But I think due to his behavior and the family was just kind of strange in general, that particular family kind of started to distance themselves from,

Speaker 1: 8:09

From the Clarks as well and really lonely for them.

Speaker 4: 8:11

Oh, it does. I mean, for all of them, it sounds like it was a terrible upbringing. So when Hadden, as he got older, the older tougher kids would make fun of him and torment him because they weren't afraid of him. He, the way he would get his revenge is that he would kidnap their pets and then he would kill them and leave them on the porch of these people that in his mind had

Speaker 1: 8:31

Wronged him. They were cats and full up in this John

Speaker 4: 8:34

Or there were all sorts of animals, I think, mostly cats and dogs, but he also evidently the father and his name is also hadn't as well. The father would take Bradfield hunting with him or Brad hunting with him, but he wouldn't take Hadden. The only thing was a little unclear is that it looked like that they not only hunted with Ben only hunted with guns, but I think they did some trapping as well. Well, hadn't learned to trap, so I don't know if he did that on his own or his father wouldn't take them if they were just using guns, but would allow him to go if they were just setting traps or hadn't just learned how to do this on his own. So he learned to trap animals and he would capture quite a few like mostly squirrels and raccoons and that sort of thing. But I got most of the information on, and Clark's upbringing from this book called born evil, true story of cannibalism and serial murder by Adrian Havel. And it was published in 2001. And this book provided the most information that I could find about his upbringing. Cause it's kind of limited. I mean, you see some things here and there, but you really don't know like what is really reliable and what isn't, what is just speculation or rumor versus, you know, actually having interviewed family members and other people. So I think this book is probably the most solid source for, for his upbringing. So anyway, he would trap these animals and according to the book, they had quote a high mortality rate and I know it was like, Oh my God. So he would keep them for a while. He would keep them up up until a month at the longest, but he would almost always kill them and dissect them. And the only one that kind of lasts for a bit was this one raccoon, I guess, that he had found in the neighborhood that had been injured. And he actually taught that raccoon to sit on his head and he would ride his bike around with this record.

Speaker 1: 10:14

I just have to say like, that's a bad sign when you're killing animals at that young age, just like th the research shows that you know, that, um, that is definitely a, an indication of some conduct disorder or antisocial stuff going on,

Speaker 4: 10:28

Even pre-research. I mean, if your kids trapping animals and on a regular basis, and then always ultimately ended up dissecting them, one would think that would be a huge red flag.

Speaker 1: 10:38

You would think, did he do it in secret?

Speaker 4: 10:40

I don't see how he could have done it in secret, because if it's known that he, this is something that he did, and he had like, kind of this menagerie of animals think sometimes he even had more than one at a time. I think the, I don't know this for sure, but it seems like they knew about it and they just let him do it. And then his brother Jeffrey was saying that hadn't, didn't seem like he had a sense of right and wrong from early on. And he used an example that once they were riding bikes together and they were trying to ride without using any hands and they were doing that. And then hadn't just reached over and grabbed his handlebars or veered into him and caused an accident. And when he asked hadn't for help, hadn't just turned around and went home. And when hadn't came in the house, he said, Oh, there's been an accident, but don't worry. The bike is okay. Who, yeah, that's just, I think how,

Speaker 1: 11:25

Like a lack of being able to identify with somebody else's pain or like lack of empathy

Speaker 4: 11:29

And the mom Flavio, she was really into, she was really active in the PTA evidently and also boy Scouts, but she also started to drink very heavily. And her husband, it seemed like he was pretty removed from at least emotionally seemed like he was pretty removed from the family. So she was taking Hadden back and forth to these doctor's appointments to therapy. And her husband just, he worked a lot. He was a chemist, very, very smart man. I, by all accounts. So him was just taking up so much time that the other Clark kids became jealous of him because they weren't getting the attention that they needed. And the sister, Alison, that she reacted to this by running away. And she was actually placed in a psychiatric hospital for a number of months and years later, she would describe when talking about her upbringing, she basically felt like she never had a family. And I don't know if the, in the, in the sixties, if that's like a thing, if you ran away from home, they would put you in a psychiatric hospital. I mean, you might know more about that. Then

Speaker 1: 12:27

My mom actually ran away from home at 15 and that would have been in, that would have been in the late fifties and social services ended up working with her and asked her like, where do you want to go? And she went to live with her, her aunt, but I don't know. I've never heard that. So, but that's, that's really interesting. It makes me wonder if like, because of the family history of all the mental health issues, that's part of why they took it out.

Speaker 4: 12:47

It seems a possibility that there could have been a lot more there even going on with her possibly. So the reason I gave the birth order of the children was because Hadden's father, he, his name was also Hadden. His oldest brother, Brad, his middle name is Hatton. So before Haddon was born, they had, we're talking about now, his parents were expecting a girl and I don't know why, I guess they just figured they just wanted one because of this long line of Haddon's, but it ended up being a boy and they were disappointed. And so disappointed that they actually had picked out a name for a girl. If they had a girl in the name the father had picked out was Kristin. So when he, when had, was born, they're disappointed because he's a guy or because he's a boy. And so the mom dressed him in pink dresses and frilly underwear until he went to elementary school. Yeah. I mean, and his father alternated from calling retard to Kristin, you know, you can talk more about that later, why that becomes an important, so hadn't his fondness of women's underwear. It continued throughout his life. One time he was mowing the neighbor's lawn and she caught him or her husband caught him. I've seen one account that she caught him. I saw another account. It was the husband that he had gotten into her room. And she caught him wearing her turn night gown. And there was also a peeping Tom incident that he was involved in and his mom took him again to see a psychologist or a psychiatrist. And they told her, don't worry. You're well,

Speaker 1: 14:13

Oh, he was around that time, Jen, he was at least 14. That's a crazy thing. I can't imagine, you know, a psychiatrist or a therapist saying that today. Like, well, don't worry about that. He'll grow out of looking in people's windows.

Speaker 4: 14:24

And I didn't see the specifics of exactly what he had done, but I guess PP in time, you just look through somebody's window. But so he was, he told the mom that, you know, that he would grow out of it. And I think too, that is kind of interesting cause his mom did try to take him to get help at it, you know, at a number of places. But something about her seems a little bit, a little bit off too. She started drinking very heavily. She became an alcoholic. The father had problems with alcohol. They fought frequently. She often blamed hadn't directly to his face of, you know, all the problems that the family was having blamed him for it. So hadn't, he actually ended up going to like a culinary Institute and it was a very prestigious one. I believe it was one in the CIA. What does that stand mean? It's not the CIA. I know what you're talking about.

Speaker 1: 15:09

Yeah. Like the culinary Institute of America, I think.

Speaker 4: 15:12

Yeah. So it was very prestigious. He didn't have a problem landing a job. In fact, he, he got a job at a restaurant in Provincetown, Massachusetts, but he didn't last very long there because of the strange things that he would do. And I think at one point he admitted to urinating into a VAT of, of potatoes or that might've been, that might've been another job he had, but he was very strange. He really creeped people out at work. He was caught, they said guzzling beef blonde that, yeah. Yes. And so he had a number of jobs going here and there, he even worked for like a cruise line and he even did ice sculptures for the Olympics in 1980 in Lake Placid. Like in that regard he was accomplished. He was really skilled at what he would do, but he just continued to have problems. So he goes into the military, into the Navy. And I think the feeling in the family was that that would kind of provide him a structure and maybe straighten him out. He didn't fare well in the Navy at all because he's in the military and he's wearing like women's underwear and that sort of thing. Oh, well, yeah, that didn't go over very well at all. So they, he ended up getting beaten up really, really badly to the point where he's in the hospital. So he was discharged honorably in 1985 after being beaten. And they had, at that time had stated, you know, he had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and that's the first time I'd seen that diagnosis for him was then based on the reading that I did and all the specialists he had seen. I didn't see anything in there about paranoid schizophrenia until, until the middle.

Speaker 1: 16:39

I want to say I have my doubts about that diagnosis. I mean, I don't know everything there is to know about having Clark, but I think that sometimes, you know, one, that's a really serious diagnosis to put on someone. And I think once you have a diagnosis, it becomes a label and it follows you. And so, you know, go to other providers, they don't know what to diagnose. And so, okay. Let me just use the previous diagnosis. So I just really wonder about that. I mean, clearly I think he was more likely to have dissociative identity disorder. You know, he did mention some stuff that that would make me make me think that, but just can certainly some episodes of psychosis, but so I don't know. Maybe he did have that. I just, I'm not, I'm not sold on it.

Speaker 4: 17:15

It sounds like he could have had a many, many things arrange of things. So with his brother, the last thing I'll add into his upbringing, his brother Bradfield, he was considered, I guess, the successful one or at least at that time, I don't know what his brother Jeffrey off the top of my head or his, his sister later went on to do, but Brad was considered to be very handsome. He excelled in school. He actually got an MBA in 1976 and he married in 1977. The marriage didn't last that long. They, they divorced like in the early eighties and by the early eighties, he was also his very, to getting this PhD in social psychology, he was, what was it called? Um, EBD, everything. But dissertation think he got his MBA, his MBA from, from rider. I'm not so sure about the PhD where he was working on that, but he had moved to California and he was hired as a software specialist. And when he was there, he met this woman, he started dating her and she ended up breaking up with him like in 1984, it doesn't sound like it was a long, long relationship. It just sounded like they dated for a while. And then she ended up breaking it off. But the interesting thing is, is that soon after she broke it off with him, coworkers were saying that he started to act really strangely and that he was really encouraging them to read this book called Grendel. Do you know what that is? Have you heard of that? It's a cult classic

Speaker 1: 18:31

Grendel. Yeah. John Gardner, I think.

Speaker 4: 18:34

Okay. Yeah. I'm not sure about who wrote it is Grendel, then it's called Grendel and it's about a half human half monster who is unusually close to his mother and enjoys eating.

Speaker 1: 18:46

That's fascinating. Old Norse mythology. Yeah. Grendel's with the retelling of Beowulf from the monster, his point of view.

Speaker 4: 18:54

Well, in 1984, he started to see another coworker. She was married and they were kind of fooling around. I mean, not like full on, but there was some kissing and that sort of thing. And she was married and the company they were working for, she and Brad were working for, it was going under. And I don't know if she had left at that point. I think she had, one of them had left. I think it was her. She had left first and Brad had invited her and her husband over for dinner and he invited her and knowing that her husband had been very busy and I think he was often out of town. So I think he was just kind of hoping that they could be alone. And he was right. Um, the coworker's name is Patricia Mac. So he has her over her husband doesn't come and sounds like they had a nice night by all accounts. He was really lamb and there've been a lot of drinking and I think he had started off with beer. Then he started drinking scotch. Then he moved on to Keanu, like Hannibal, I was going to ask you doesn't that sound like you're talking about lamb. Kianta I think they got it from, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't kind of lift that. Yep. That's crazy. So, yeah. So they having, it sounds like they were having a nice night. I think he lived like in a condo or an apartment and they went downstairs by the pool. Then they came back up to the apartment again and then they started making out and he ended up biting her nipple off. And so, yeah, and I won't go too much into it, but so he ended up doing that. Of course she screams and like slaps him and then he starts beating her up and he ends up killing her and he cuts one of her breasts off and he grills it and he eats part of it. And the, the police later came looking for her, like the next day her car was there and I think he waited another 24 hours and then he just confessed to the police and he really didn't know why he did it. And he just couldn't explain really why he did it other than, you know, he bit her and she slapped him and I guess he became angry and then he killed her. And then, but he just really didn't seem like he had really an explanation at all for like, he could provide any type of insight really into his behavior.

Speaker 1: 20:50

Or even like you had mentioned earlier, like as a kid, he was quick to anger, but so I can see if he snapped and killed her, but it's a whole other thing to like cut off a body part and eat it. Right. That takes, it's just like a whole other level of pathology. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 21:06

So that is, those are the basics of his upbringing. Again, I got most of this information or if not, all of it from the book, born evil, a true story of cannibalism and serial murder by Adrian Havel. And that's in 2001. And there's also another article I believe, published in the new Yorker. It's called a hole in the ground by Alec Wilkinson. And that's a good article too. So I am going to turn it over to you.

Speaker 1: 21:30

So, um, like Jen, I also relied on a lot on the book, born evil by Adrian Havel. And I went to a site called Murderpedia. Then I also had several articles from different newspapers. So that was, that was really helpful. Um, so what I want to do is talk about a couple of, well, really the main, the main two crimes, the crimes that were proven that Hadden Clark committed, and then we'll talk about, you know, their speculation, which he has really given rise to himself, that he may be killed a lot more people than, than the two that we know about. Um, so the first murder I want to talk about is the murder of Michelle DOR, which occurred on May 31st, 1986, by all accounts. It was a really hot day. You know, it was, I guess that's right around Memorial day when you think about it, but summer had come early. Um, so, so people were out just kind of having fun. I think it was a Saturday, but, um, don't quote me on that. Hadn't had actually been living in an upstairs room and his brother Jeff's home. And I don't know if you've got this feeling, Jen, but I definitely got the sense that Jeff was relatively normal, that he was going to be the most functional. A lot of everybody in that family, I don't know much about the daughter Alice

Speaker 4: 22:37

In the book, it talks about he had a really nasty divorce and there were allegations of child abuse. It looks like with the, perhaps with the, with the child abuse, there was some merit to that because I believe some daycare providers or something had seen him be abusive towards his kins. Okay. But it looked like that the children, their children, or Jeffrey's children were troubled as well.

Speaker 1: 23:00

Interesting that you bring that up because I read that actually the reason to hadn't he was hadn't was living at Jeff's house, but Jeff told him he had to get out. And the reason that he hadn't had to leave was he, Jeff had discovered that he was actually masturbating in front of his kids. So it sounds like there was some sexual stuff going on there. So this was, I think he had, was packing up his stuff on May 31st or he had basically gotten everything out. And this was his last day at the house. So I want to sort of cut to little Michelle door, who was only six years old. And her parents had had a really troubled marriage. They were, they had this really acrimonious, nasty divorce. Her dad's name was Carl, but they were in, they would fight in front of her. And I think that Carl, um, the dad would, would beat her mother. And so like this poor little lamb, like at six years old, you know, she had seen, seen so many awful things, but I also read that her parents, even though they hated each other, they really loved her. And so she seemed to have at least a lot of affection from them. So that weekend she was spending time with her dad, Carl, he had custody custody of her on the weekends. And because it was so hot that day, he told her, you know, I'm going to fill up your little swimming pool. And then later in the afternoon, around four o'clock, I'll take you to the public pool and we'll go swimming. So she's wearing this little pink ruffled bathing suit. And she goes out to play in her pool. And her dad, meanwhile, is inside. I think he's drinking beer and watching NASCAR. So sounds like that sounds familiar from the place I come from. That's pretty much what people do on a Saturday. So that's what he's doing. And he goes out and checks on her later and he doesn't see her, but he doesn't really get that worried. And then later around five or five 30, he's like, where is where's Michelle? You know? So he goes and looks for her. It turns out that little Michelle, she got bored playing by herself. So this kids do, she just went down the street and one of her friends was Jeff's kid a lot. His name was Eliza. So she was looking for her little friend, Eliza, but Eliza wasn't there. So Michelle runs into two Hadden Clark and I wouldn't own it back up and give like a little, just a little backstory fact, that's going to be important, Eliza. I'm not sure how old she was, but I'm assuming she was probably around Michelle's age. So anywhere between like six and eight or nine or something like that earlier that week, Eliza had called Hatton or retard. And apparently that maid had an extremely angry and I've heard that people talk about revenge as a motivation in, in both of the murders that we know that hadn't committed, both Michelle and, um, Laura, who we'll get to in a little bit. So just kind of keep that in the back of your mind. So Michelle comes up to Haddon and it's like, Oh, you know, it was Eliza there. I mean, I wanna, can she come out and play? And Haddon's like, we'll just go on in the house. She's upstairs playing with her dolls. So, um, Michelle does that and she goes upstairs. Meanwhile, Hadden, who is Jen explained, was working as a chef or a sous chef, goes to the back of his truck and he's got, and this just, both, this creeps me out so bad. He's got this big box of knives and he's got like, you know, like a meat mallet and a deboning knife and like every kind of chef knife that you can imagine. And so he, he grabs some knives and he heads upstairs and he, he murders Michelle and it's a really brutal murder. It's a stabbing. I think he slit her throat. There were just multiple injuries. So, so hadn't started cleaning up really quickly because he has to be at his job at the Chevy chase country club in 20 minutes. And he's smart enough to know. I mean, I don't think he's a stupid guy. He's smart enough to know that if he is late for work, that's going to be, that could impact an alibi or something like that. So he goes really quickly. He stuffs Michelle's body into a duffel bag and then stoves her in his truck and he goes to work and he works his entire shift with this little six year old body in the back of his truck. Now, one thing Michelle was, she was a fighter. She did not want to die. And during the attack, she bit him on his hand. And this part really gets me. So after, after work, his hand is really hurting him. And he stops after work at the VA hospital for treatment and gets his hand taken care of. Now, I don't know why in the name of God, they wouldn't have noticed that this was a bite Mark. And it, that looked like it was from a child's mouth, but apparently nobody, nobody said anything about that. After he gets his hand taken care of, he gets in his truck and he drives towards Baltimore on the old Columbia pike. And he, he digs a shallow grave in the North point branch stream Valley park. I don't know are either of you familiar with that? Like I've driven around my area, but I don't remember that part.

Speaker 2: 27:25

I used to live in Montgomery County. I don't know Columbia pike, but I don't, I don't know that part.

Speaker 1: 27:30

Yeah. That's familiar to me like the name, at least I'm sure I've driven on it at some point. So he, he, he digs this shallow grave. Um, and it's about 12 miles from where she was murdered. And before he buries her, he S he says later that he eats some of her flesh. There are some other accounts where he said he drank some of her blood, but he, he consumed some part of her. And I did read, um, and I can't say that I know where this quote comes from, but he had told someone, I think it was an investigator, a detective they'd asked him why he kills women. And this is a quote, but I can't source it. He says, I thought if I drank the blood of women, it would transform me into a woman. I wanted to become the girls and women I killed, which gives you, I think, gives you a lot of insight into what's going on in his head, even though it makes absolutely no sense. So Michelle's father Carl, he soon becomes the lead suspect because investigators always say it's like, usually it's usually the family member. So it's the father, the mother, and they they're really pressuring him hard. And you know, they're interviewing him and he ends up having a psychotic break and he starts to think that, okay, if I find my daughter, if she's dead, I'll be able to bring her back to life. And then his next conclusion is that means I must be Jesus. So he starts referring to himself as the white Messiah. I mean, this is, you can't make this stuff up. It's crazy. And he ends up confessing to his psychiatrist that he had killed his daughter. He was brought in for questioning numerous times, but from what I could find, he was never charged, but he remained, he remained a suspect until Haddon was eventually discovered to have murdered Michelle. And I'm going to get to that because this story takes a lot of twists and turns her murder would go and solve for the next 14 years. And it would take the murder of another person. Her name is Laura huddling, who was, who was not a young, well, she was a young girl, but not a child. She was 23 years old. And she had just recently, really just recently graduated from Harvard. She was considered brilliant and beautiful by her friends. She was six feet tall and blonde, and just like drop dead, gorgeous, and really, really smart. One of her friends said that she thought she was going to be president one day. Her friend thought that about her. So after college graduation, Laura comes home to live with her mother, whose name is penny. Penny's a psychotherapist. And they live in Bethesda, Maryland. Now, penny just sounded like a really nice person to me. The mom, because she hired hadn't is a gardener through this organization that placed homeless people in jobs. And she gave hadn't a lot of chances. And she, you know, is she began to trust him more. She gave him certain privileges. So she said, you know, Hey, you can come on in, in the kitchen and make coffee for yourself. Or if you need to use the bathroom, you can use the bathroom when I'm not here. Like you can come on in the house and stuff like that. And hadn't really kind of took advantage of that. So he started stealing from her, but it was stuff like jewelry, underwear, the clothes that she wore was really stuff that I think that he was just longing, he was longing to wear. And that he thought was pretty probably. So he took that stuff and then he stole some tools. And I don't, I don't really know why he did that, but penny did confront him about that and he denied it. But I think this, it anchored hadn't that he was confronted that she would think badly of him because, you know, like I said, she was a really nice person and he started to think of her almost as a mother figure. So they, you know, he almost said they got close, but it's not like, you know, she thought he was her son, but he, he did kind of think like, Oh, you're my mom. Like, you're the most reliable person in my life right now. I read that it's sad. It's just really, really sad. And it feels like it's just all the set up for this perfect tragedy to happen. So penny tells Hatton she's going off to a conference and it's a shame that she told him that. And she probably told him, so he wouldn't come, or he would know that she wouldn't be around. And I read that because he felt so close to penny and he felt like her child, when Laura came home from college, he got really jealous and he felt like Laura was kind of taking his place. So there are some theories that he decides to go after Laura to kill her because he presents her. And if you think about that, to me, that strikes me as like really childish kind of revenge. A kid might think about in a childish way, like when they're eight or nine, but you know, for an adult man to be thinking that way is just really strange. But if you think about his upbringing, you know, as you explained to us, you know, he, he was probably, I don't wanna, I don't want a psycho therapize him or anything like that. But I imagine that he, his mental age, at least emotionally was probably much younger that he was stuck in a much earlier stage of development than adulthood. So anyway, um, he goes out and he prepares for this murder and he goes to hardwood or hardware store. He goes to a hardware store and he buys rope and duct tape. And this is crazy. So he writes a check for his purchases on the memo line. He writes the word, Laura, can you believe that? It's just like, I don't even write stuff on the memo line of my checks. Now, if I'm going to commit a murder, I'm definitely not going to write anything on the memo line. Like who's organized enough to do that. First of all, and who, you know, who, who would do that? So Laura, she, I think she had had like a job or an internship or something. And so she goes to bed pretty early. Hadden takes his truck and drives to the house around midnight. And he gets the keys. He always had the keys to the house were in the shed in case he like, you know, he wanted to make coffee or go to the bathroom. So he has the keys he's able to get into, into the house. And he goes up to her bedroom and he confronts her with a gun. And the scene is just, it's awful. Like I read that he forced her to, to undress and take a bath. He makes her, it's almost like a ritualistic type thing. He makes her lay on the bed and he ties her up and does all of this stuff. And then eventually he kills her by suffocating her. And I think she was stabbed as well. So this poor woman, like she just endured, endured hours of torture. He finally, you know, it's still dark of night. So he loads her body in his truck and he goes back into the house to sleep in her bed the next morning. Um, it was, the sun is coming up. He leaves the house and he's dressed as a woman. And I should've mentioned, I think he entered the house dressed as a woman as well. And then maybe change clothes. I would be surprised if you were, did he? Okay, can you, can you say more about that, Jim?

Speaker 3: 33:32

He entered the house, wearing a wig and I think some of her clothing and kept, kept saying, call me Laura. Wow.

Speaker 1: 33:39

So he kind of w he w he was wearing the mom's clothing.

Speaker 3: 33:42

He was wearing some of her clothing that he'd stolen. I could be wrong, but I know he was definitely telling them, telling her to call him Laura Jesus. And when he started putting the duct tape on her face, her struggling made him excited. And he started duct tape in the morning. He wound up mama, find her face almost with the duct tape. And she smothered to death. That's awful. And I think his, um, she was struggling. He realized, you know what, he'd done. He tried to cut the duct tape off and he wound up cutting her throat a little bit with the scissors. And then he tried taking her earrings as a souvenir, and he couldn't get the, I think it was the right one out. So he clipped off her ear lobe with the scissors. Was she dead by that point? She had smothered to death by that point. Okay,

Speaker 1: 34:29

Great. Thank God. I mean, not that, you know, I want her to be dead, but I just, it just seems like all that torture after that, I just can't imagine being alive and feeling somebody cut your ear lobe off, you know?

Speaker 3: 34:38

Well, and he kept a souvenir from this. One of the souvenirs he kept was a bloody pillow case. And that's, that's what that's, what did it meant?

Speaker 1: 34:46

Yeah. Yeah. And we'll get to that shortly, but thank you. That's so it's, so he went into the house to commit the murder, dressed, dressed as a woman. And then the next morning he, he left. So maybe he like put on a different outfit or something,

Speaker 3: 34:57

Any brushed her Rusty's wig with her brush

Speaker 1: 35:00

God. So it's like, he really identified with Laura. Like he wanted, like, he wanted to be her. He wanted to possess her or enter into her. And in the sense that like, and then he would be the, the rightful daughter, right. He'd be the beloved kid. There's so much psychosexual stuff going on in here. It's like, it's not even funny. But, um, so a witness, there was a lady who, I think she worked as a housekeeper and she was standing out with one of the kids. Um, they were waiting at the bus stop to go to school and she saw Laura quote, Laura leaving. But of course it wasn't Laura. It was, um, it was Hatton and she just thought, Oh, Laura is leaving for her job. He must have looked pretty convincing. I mean, he's kind of a slight guy, isn't he? Can you say a little bit about what he, what he looks like Jim, because to me, he looked like not, not like a muscly guy. Like I think I could see him putting on women's clothes and kind of getting up.

Speaker 3: 35:47

He was a thin build. He was a little bit taller than me. Um, I'm five 11. So he was probably six, one ish somewhere there.

Speaker 1: 35:56

And that's interesting because Laura was six foot, which is unusual for a woman, but so he was about her height. So I think he could pass pretty well, especially if maybe if he didn't see him right up close. Anyway, he, he goes around with her body for a while in his, in his truck. So he buries her the next night off of I two 70 and I'm wonder exactly where, cause I used to drive that road. I used to go to shady Grove up in Rockville for some of my graduate classes. And so I was always on two 70, which is a of a road. Um, but I just wonder where that was. So he gets really nervous and he drives, he decides to get in his truck and drive North to new England. And along the way, he, he rented a self storage locker somewhere. I'm not sure what state this was in, but he puts the items that he stole from penny and Laura's house in there, including the bloody sheets from the murder, but the pillow case, for some reason, he ends up throwing the pillow case in a wooded area, which I presume, I don't know if you know anything about this gym. I presume it was like close to Laura's grave. Like where he buried.

Speaker 3: 36:53

No, actually he kept it as a souvenir and slept with it. And yeah, I remember he lived in a tent in the woods and I think during the time that he was murdering her, he confessed to saying something like, you know, I'm going to take you to the woods to meet the real Hadden. Oh my God. They found a fingerprint on a pillow. Hey, so I never thought she could get a fingerprint from a pillow case, but evidently they found the pillow case with her blood on it and his fingerprint. And that's what did amend on that.

Speaker 1: 37:21

That's so interesting. That was the one little thing he overlooked. I just want to ask you while we're kind of circling around this, this issue. I mean, do you really, do you think, cause you you've interacted with him. Do you think that he really did think that he was Laura in that, that this was all going on with him? Or do you think that was a ruse? That, what do you think about all that?

Speaker 3: 37:40

You know, honestly, I don't know what to think. You know, back, back then I was fairly new to corrections. This was over 20 years ago. Um, he, he was never what I would call batshit crazy, you know, sorry for

Speaker 1: 37:52

All the time on the show,

Speaker 3: 37:53

He seemed very high functioning to me, you know? Um, I I've dealt with a lot of mental health patients over the years and I mean, some of them are just way out there. He never presented any kind of psychosis. He did weird things, but he never, if you looked at him, you'd, you'd be like, yeah, there's something wrong with this guy, but you couldn't quite put your finger on it. And I think it was for me, mostly for him, it was his eyes. He just had this up look in his eyes. He is like, he was looking at you, but he wasn't

Speaker 1: 38:23

To me, when I look at his picture online, they look kind of empty, like kind of they're dark eyes. And they look to me like they're sort of bottomless pools. Like you can't really, he has blue on blue. They look Brown me. I

Speaker 3: 38:36

Remember him being a pale shade of blue, but they're, they're definitely blue. And just, it was like he was looking at you, but it was not like he was recognizing you as, um, as something that mattered to him. You know, you were just kinda there.

Speaker 4: 38:52

I could see where you think his eyes were maybe Brown or something gem because in some pictures I looked in, you could see that they are, they look very blue to me and others I'll have to look around again. Yeah. That's interesting. I mean, I think both color eyes can end up looking empty. You know, if, if you've got that look like I know Jen and I haven't experienced with one person who we won't name, but Jen was like, this person is crazy. I'm like, no, I think they're just socially awkward. Well, John was a right. Cause she always is. She can like read people much better than I can, but especially the crazy people. And it crazy when I see what you would truly like, you would look in this person's eyes and they would be like, there would be nothing there. It was so creepy, but kind of like what you're saying, gem, like if you think about the person that we're talking about, Jen, he would, he was looking at you, but he wasn't. And maybe, I don't know what's going on. Like maybe he's thinking he's just sort of paying more attention to like the stimuli in his head, you know, like what's going on in his head. I don't know.

Speaker 3: 39:44

Don't ever really remember any of the therapists talking about him. Um, you know, this was way before HIPAA. So I don't remember any of the therapists ever talk about him hearing voices or, or anything like that. And the times that I was in the mental health unit, I didn't work at very often because we had a specialized team that worked at. So I was just there to provide meal breaks. Or if somebody was on vacation, I'd get assigned there for a shifter two, but he never, he was probably one of the Tamer ones of the bunch, you know, he was fairly, fairly tame.

Speaker 4: 40:13

Did he have his own cell or did he share with somebody else? Both. Okay.

Speaker 3: 40:18

I think when we first got him, he was celled by himself, but then as we moved more acute people in there, you get assigned different levels. Level one is the absolute worst. You're self destructive. You're just gone level two. You're certain, you know, adjusting your medication three and four, get more privileges. And he was pretty much a level four almost the entire time he was there.

Speaker 4: 40:39

What kind of privileges would he get? You just got,

Speaker 3: 40:41

Well, first of all, you weren't locked in your cell 24 hours a day and come out for just a shower. Yeah. He was out, you know, the entire time of the day, you know, he got full rec room privileges. He could play checkers or cards or dominoes or whatever you wanted to do.

Speaker 4: 40:57

Okay. I don't know if this is when he was at your facility, Jim, but when, um, Adrian Havel was interviewing for this book, Adrian's a man assuming he is, but I don't, I don't know. Maybe he's Laura, I'm sorry. That was terrible joke. I actually, um, took down this paragraph, that in his book about a description of head and his state of line, at least, I guess when he would go to interview him sometimes. So this is like a paragraph and this really freaks me out. So Hafele says, um, quote, he said he is rarely in his right mind these days. You can that today, just by period at his cell, hadn't taken the sausage links that came with his breakfast tray and suspended them from dental floss in the window of a cell to age, he imagined himself, a Hunter and a campsite or winter is coming and there could be a food shortage when he is cured and dried this meat with this shriveled sausage becoming furry with mold, he will caucus head to the side as if a baby bird about to receive a warm from its mother had Molly at one of the Brown casings, snapping the brittle tubes in half with his teeth and eating as an afternoon.

Speaker 3: 42:03

I never saw anything like that. No, no.

Speaker 4: 42:07

Well, he, this guy was, well, this author is saying that he would do all sorts of interesting things with food. Like he would just take it and hide it. Like he would take, uh, a grapefruit peeling and kind of, um,

Speaker 3: 42:18

Well you see that a lot with homeless people. Um, you know, at the jail they'll stash food away. And of course, you know, when we go in, we're trying to keep the cockroaches and the ants and fruit flies down and you go in and you've got like pieces of fruit that are rotten and we go to take it from it and they get mad at ya. Cause you know how I'm gonna eat that later. It's still good. No, it's not. But then their mind, it, it, it still is. So I, you know, that kind of behavior doesn't surprise me. I see that quite a bit. Uh, and that's, and that's more of a homeless behavior than it is a, like a mental health issue behavior, I guess.

Speaker 4: 42:52

I wonder too though, like he, cause you said gentlemen, he was a kid. He used to like trap. He used to trap animals and well, but you said he never went camping with his dad. So I just wondered if that almost seems like a, besides the homeless thing, it could be something that a kid sort of imagined, you know, kids play at that. And um, but yeah, the homeless thing makes a lot of sense. Yeah. It just seems like he goes from like one weird idea to another and would, this was going on this XR that I was reading it's like in the first 15, 16 pages of the book. And um, that's when he, wherever he was staying, he had a cell mate or a guy that was beside him that he thought was,

Speaker 3: 43:31

Yeah, that's when he was in state doc. And for when he got sentenced for the, the Laura huts,

Speaker 4: 43:38

Was that after you knew him, Jim,

Speaker 3: 43:40

He had, I started in late 96 and I think he had either just left or going just before upstate, before I had gotten there. Cause I, I had heard the name and while he was up there, I guess his cellmate convinced him that he was Jesus and you'll, you'll, you'll see a lot of this kind of behavior in, in prison. If they can one guy I'll try and get somebody to tell his crimes, especially if they're in there for petty and they're doing five or six years and you can get a guy that's doing 25 or more and he's got more information that the police want, you know, they'll, they'll sniff them out and try and cut a deal. So, and the guy had like long hair and a beard, you know, he kind of looked like Jesus. So hadn't started confessing things to him and he confessed to the door murder and that's when they rearrested him and brought him back. They tried to get him to plead to the door murder, I think, uh, during the Laura Hartling trial. Cause they, they had an indication and you talked about the father having a psychotic break. What screwed the father and what made the police look so hard at him is the timelines weren't matching up. Hadn't Clark clocked in at the country club. He punched his card at two 46. Well, the father Carl was at Carl door. Oh, I guess he didn't want to seem like a bad parent. And like you said, you know, I'm drinking beer, watching NASCAR and not paying attention to my kids. So the timeline that he gave was saying that, you know, he saw her at this time and hadn't Clark punch in at two 46. There wasn't enough time for him to commit the murder and get to work. So something along those lines screwed it up. And even though, you know, they were interviewing them and they were putting the press on them and they actually slapped up a picture of Michelle door down. I knew the detective and um, they were saying, what'd you do with her? What'd you do with her? And he was puking who hadn't parked

Speaker 1: 45:29

The dad. Okay. But he would never say anything. So you were saying that you knew the, um, one of the detectives, is it Varney?

Speaker 3: 45:37

Oh, it's been so long. I used to see him in the CPU all the time. What's the CPU central processing unit. Um, basically we started a program where the police would bring us through arrestees and while they're upstairs doing the probable cause paperwork and statement of charges, we're, we're the ones handling all the booking. So we're doing the photographs or searching all that. So that helps get them back out on the street faster. And that's, that's something we,

Speaker 1: 46:03

I hadn't, he's only at like how long was he at your facility? And then I guess, is he there, like while he's awaiting trial and then he goes onto something more permanent? Is that how it works?

Speaker 3: 46:14

He'd been arrested several times. Uh, he'd been arrested for petty theft. He'd been arrested for a malicious destruction of property in a County facility in Maryland. You can only do 18 months sentenced anything more than 18 months of state doc time. However, by the time that some of these more complicated cases are, are going through and you're getting the mental evaluations and, you know, delays a trial and everything, sometimes it can be two, two and a half years before somebody finally goes to court. And he came to us around when I was there around 98 and left early 2000 late 99, early 2000. So he'd been with us for awhile, but he was already sentenced to state doc time on one murder.

Speaker 1: 46:59

And that was Laura huddling. Yeah. Cause he had pled guilty. I think the second degree murder before her body was found. And then he was sentenced to like 30 years in 1993. Yeah. And then I think after like just shortly after sentencing, he led police

Speaker 3: 47:12

Well after the Jesus thing, that's when he started leading, leading people to lead the police to the two bodies.

Speaker 1: 47:19

Can I read the G Jesus would have to accompany him sometimes. Is that true?

Speaker 3: 47:24

Uh, and he had to have, um, women's underwear in a wig and uh, they, uh, I think that was up in Connecticut.

Speaker 1: 47:30

I mean, there's something about Hatton Clark that reminds me of Norman Bates. You know, the dressing up is

Speaker 3: 47:35

Norman Bates and there's a lot of silence of the lambs in there too. Cause Buffalo bill wanted to be a woman

Speaker 1: 47:41

That's right. It was, was it a kind of gain who I never know if it's gain or GYN? I think it was, it was a gain ed gain who, um, who I think they did based on Norman Bates on, he would make skin suits out of women, um, and wear them. And Jen, can you speak to a little bit about, um, gender and yeah. You have a background a little bit and you can speak to gender transgender difference between, you know, I mean, it's hard to say. I mean, when I think about, um, from the little bit I know about Hadden Clark and I think about all of the disruptions in his development from early on, he doesn't strike me as someone who was truly transgender in, in a normal way. Of course being trans is like a real thing. And you know, some people are born or just kind of born in the bodies that don't match our gender identity. Hadn't doesn't strike me about like that so much. Um, he strikes me more like he was, it was about wish fulfillment. He was trying to be what this really important figure in his life his mother wanted him to be and he could never, you know, he can never really do that. And so it's this urge or this need, this need for maternal affection does never, it's never realized. And so he keeps, he keeps on it, it escalates and it becomes, so that's kind of my, my take on it. But you know, again, I haven't interviewed him. I haven't sat down with him. I, but he doesn't strike me as someone who is transgender and in like a normal way, if that makes sense.

Speaker 3: 49:07

I remember him having some sort of alter ego where he called himself, like lady blue, feather or lady blue fin or some like that. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:16

Kristen Brusa and that's what he went by. Christian. What's funny you say that because there is this quote I have from him. And let me just see if I can find it. I read that he told one of his doctors that he, he said, this is a quote. I think I have a split personality. I don't like to hurt people, but I do things I'm not aware of. And I think dissociative identity disorder actually makes, uh, makes a lot of sense for him that maybe he did become someone else. And then he committed these crimes. He loses a time and doesn't really know what he's done. Well, Jesus said something that was really interesting and creepy. He was saying that hadn't, I guess he wore glasses or neat. Or at that time he wore glasses or needed contacts. I'm not sure, but when he became Christian, he didn't need them because Kristen was younger. I think that's more evidence that he really did have time.

Speaker 3: 50:00

No, I don't ever recall him wearing glasses because you know, at the jail, if you, you know, we provide everything. So if he needed glasses, he he'd get the basic set of birth control glasses. Like you get in the military.

Speaker 1: 50:12

Yeah. I just wonder if he, if this was at a later time.

Speaker 3: 50:15

Well, he was getting old too. He was born in 52.

Speaker 1: 50:19

Yeah. Um, I just want to follow up or just kind of give him, well, maybe we already gave some conclusion to Michelle door's murder, but I did read, it was partly mitochondrial DNA from the blood that was on the floorboards in the room where he killed her, that also helped, you know, link him to the car.

Speaker 3: 50:35

I think, uh, once they, um, once they got away from the father being a suspect and started at zero and a hat and Clark that's when they went in and did the blood samples in the room and you were, you were talking about, you know, I hate to be graphic about it, but you were talking about the details. He basically, as soon as he went up in the room with her, he grabbed her around by the mouth and she bit him and he spun her around and slashed her across the chest and then slashed her another way. It was almost like a Zorro pattern. And I can't remember if she started to scream or not. And then he stabbed her throat. So there was a lot of blood. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 51:11

The poor little thing I did read. And I wanted to mention this, that penny, you know, Laura's mom did not believe that hadn't could possibly have done it. She said something like, Oh, well he's only a gardener. He couldn't have done that. Um, so she really trusted him. And I don't know. I mean, there's a lot, that's scary about this case, but I think, I think it was that murder of Laurel huddling maybe. Cause I can identify with a 23 year old woman. I'm a little closer to that than I am being six again. But just the idea of, you know, this person who you've kind of led into your orbit, um, a stranger, but you, you trust them. And that, that could end like that. It's just, it's like something out of a horror movie. I mean, it, it really is. I wonder, I wanted to ask you when you, when you're working with people and you know, their history, so, you know, like the horrible things they've done in, in some cases you probably know a lot about the details of what they've done. Is it hard to kind of put that together with the person who's in front of you? Because I'll just say like I've worked with in a different, in a different way, like as a therapist with some people who've committed crimes. And it's always hard for me to put, to like link that history of what a person's done with the person who's sitting, usually a mild-mannered person sitting in front of me in a chair.

Speaker 3: 52:17

So basically I'm looking at him and going, Oh no, this person never could have done that.

Speaker 1: 52:22

Do you ever feel like that? Or be like, this just doesn't, it doesn't fit somehow.

Speaker 3: 52:26

I don't, I don't think I ever have. Um, I've always been an err on the side of caution person and we always dressed, treat everybody the same way and I try not to learn people's charges, but you know, some are so famous that you just can't help it like the DC snipers and the rest of them. But for the most part, as long as you stay out of my orbit, don't cause any problems I leave you alone, you leave me alone. And I just tried to interact with them because I, you know, and some of them are pretty charming and they'll start asking, you know, you know, you, you okay, you feeling okay today or, you know, and they're gathering information on you and that's something that you gotta, you gotta realize. So I try not to interact with them personally. Although there are some guys that I've known, I call it doing life on the installment plan where they're doing 12 months here, six months there, 19 months here. And I've known them my entire career for 24 years. I've been seeing these dumb masses come in, in and out on petty all the time. So yeah, I do get to know some of them on a personal level, but they're not on that. The Hadden Clark level or the murder incorporated DC snipers or

Speaker 1: 53:33

Yeah, I'm speaking of the DC snipers. I noticed that a name that popped out to me was that, you know, when Hadden Clark finally revealed where Michelle's remains were, um, chief moose at that time, he was Montgomery County police chief made a, made a remark that, you know, this was finally able to give the family closure. And I was like, Oh, chief moves. I remember him from seeing him on TV from the DC sniper case. He seemed like such a good guy. He was a hot mess. I remember that distinctly, I guess anybody in this area, what I was telling Jim, or that I was living in Rochester, New York at the time, but it was, it was national. I mean, I was just glued to the TV about that would just like, you know, getting your gas, just like doing a dance. Like

Speaker 3: 54:12

It's funny. I, I looked like I was on soul train and getting gas cause I was constantly moving shuck and jive and ducking

Speaker 1: 54:22

Gentlemen, Jen, I wanted to ask you about, I know it was asking you to speak to someone being transgender or whatever, but if you could just also touch on like cross dressing, because I think, I think people get confused, like cross dressing necessarily being to be in transgender. Right? I mean, trans yeah. It's two different things. Does it mean you're trans if you cross for us when you're trans you're not cross-dressing because you're dressing according to the gender that you are, right. Like if I'm a trans man, like I'm dressing like a man, because I'm a man, you know, but yeah. Cross dressing is really, it's a different thing. So cross dressing used to be considered in the DSM. The, it was considered like a paraphilia. I think I don't, hopefully it's not considered that anymore. I haven't looked at my ideas. I'm five lately, but I'm sure that it's not. So cross dressing is, um, just when you enjoy wearing clothing, the opposite gender, the opposite sex. Um, so unrelated, unrelated to being trans typically. I mean, if you think about it, we want to dress in a way that, you know, that aligns with, with our gender identification. Although I, I would wear nothing but t-shirts and flannel shirts lately. So I'm not sure what that says, girl, I'm an Indigo girl. Yeah. Um, you know, just because like not leaving the house, but you know, so yeah. So when you're trans, like that's not cross-dressing. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that people take that and kind of sensationalize it, I guess is my point. And then, I mean, clearly he is mentally ill, right? That's why I don't think he's truly trans gender. I mean, there is some, and I think the cross dressing is much more about aligning with another personality or, you know, this one, this wanting to fulfill these desires of his mother that he can fulfill, um, than about anything, anything, you know, being trans. That's just my, that was just my opinion. And it seems, and this is me being a arm chair, psychologist. But when I've read the history, the family history and his history with his mom in particular, as I said, you know, his mom was like taking him to different specialists. So it's not like she wasn't taking him places. Like she would take them here. She would take them there. It was just kinda like, okay, now I'm going to take you here and now I'm going to take you there now what? Now I'm going to take you to another place now, what, but it seemed like what was absent is that he probably at no point in his life felt like he was okay or good enough.

Speaker 3: 56:36

Well, he was also getting, he was getting mixed signals to, you know, she's dressing him in a dress and calling him, Kristen, then taking them to special.

Speaker 1: 56:45

And, and I get the sense that she never saw herself as part of the problem. And years ago, like when I was first starting my career, I did family therapy in home family therapy. So glad I don't do that anymore. But, you know, I saw, I saw that kind of stuff. Not, not the same thing as Hadden Clark, but where parents were really, um, they were like driving the dysfunction in the family, but of course, like the client is supposed to be like the, the juvenile or the teenager. And it's just like, but, but they can't see that they're like all these blind spots and families where they can't see like what they're actually doing to their children or, or to each others. And I, I imagine her alcoholism covered up a lot of her insight too. So there's never a time for him or maybe with the other children as well. Like we're, it's like, well, you know, you are okay and you know, I love you and it didn't seem like, it just seemed like that was, it wasn't necessarily that she didn't take him to try to seek, you know, appropriate health. I mean, they were relatively affluent. It's just that there just didn't seem to be, you know, a lot of love or affection at all. And he feeling in that family father and I used to see this and family therapy to, you know, usually it would be the mother who was more sort of driving the treatment and getting the treatment for the kids in, in, but sometimes it would be opposite, but like, you know, the father and with Hatton's case sounds like he was just really kind of outside the orbit of the family and intimate, like mom was really alone. Cause I know, you know, we, I think women do tend, the mother tends to get blamed and the feminist part of me dislikes that. But, but I do think that like, I think the dad, um, dad was really divorced from everything going on, you know? So I mean, he, it was just, did he? Wow, I don't blame him. God. I'm like, no, seriously. I don't know. I just have to say one more thing. That's kind of outrageous. And it's like, this is like the perfect family. That is a good reminder of like, why maybe you shouldn't have kids. It's like, when I think about a family like this, I'm like, thank you, God, that I never had children. Like, not that I think my kids would have ended up like this, but it's just like the things that can go wrong in a family. I don't know. It's just, I guess, between my family therapy experience and like the story, it just really brings that out. Like there's some up families out there. Does anyone, does anyone know like what hadn't thought about his older brother, Brad killing that one?

Speaker 3: 58:59

I, I try not to interact with them on a personal level if I don't have to. And that was definitely one that I had no desire to talk to.

Speaker 1: 59:07

It'd be like, how's your brother?

Speaker 3: 59:16

Uh, no, I, I was pretty much at anytime I was in the mental health unit. I mean, it's probably not PC now, but you know, they were so medicated back then. I called it magic kingdom because it was just, they were flying high and

Speaker 1: 59:30

I was more

Speaker 3: 59:31

Of an observer than an active participant in that program.

Speaker 1: 59:35

I watched some interviews with Hadden Clark or the interrogations and he would, he would like to sing Bible songs. Cause the only place I think that he ever felt kind of accepted was in church and he would sing the song. Like he's the Potter, I'm the clay. And he's still working on me. He liked to sing that one.

Speaker 3: 59:53

Bob never saw him do that. I did see him do like some weird chanting and dancing during the world series. Uh, I think it was 98 or 99. It was, um, think it was the Yankees and the braids.

Speaker 1: 1:00:07

Well, it's amazing. You can remember that. I would have no idea.

Speaker 3: 1:00:10

Yeah, because he was like in front of the TV, like snapping his fingers and doing these hand motions and twirling around. I couldn't figure out who the he was rooting for, you know, not, and I'm sure the Yankees and the bridge could be done with that as serial killer voodoo magic to help.

Speaker 1: 1:00:27

I do clearly remember that. I wonder if he was doing any sign language because he has, they're all these drawings. If you look up Pat and Clark and art or any do an image search, all of these drawings come up that he's done. And some of them are on there, like for sale. I teased Jen that I was going to get her, that for her birthday. And she was like, please do not, Jen, don't worry, Jen. I'm not really going to get that for your birthday.

Speaker 3: 1:00:47

John Wayne Gacy painting of a clown.

Speaker 1: 1:00:49

Yeah, we did an episode on, um, Gacy. I don't know if you listened to that one or not. I've listened to every episode. Aw, thank you. Oh, we're going to have to start getting some like some little merge to send out to people who listen to us. John, some sausage links, links, Molly snap in half for your team. I don't think I can. I don't think I can ever get that image out of my mind. Oh my God. But these drawings. So going back to these drawings, like, I'm just going to give you a few because there's so many, just a few of the subjects. So they are all, they look like they're done in crayon and they look like they're done by a kid, but they look like something like it's better than what I could do. So they have some artistic merit, but like there's little girls with bunnies. There's Garfield dressed as Santa. And it says the real meaning of Christmas. And then it's got like the nativity scene up in the upper left hand corner. And Jen, there's one with Dolly Parton and she's doing, and it has the signs for, I will always love you. I almost died when I saw that she's like Dolly with her guitar. Are you kidding? Not kidding. And then so like they all look really sweet and you know, like, like an innocent child did them and then there's one and it's done in the same style, but it's not sweet. It's a drawing of a penis and it says penis and then they're like drops of semen and it says, see, so he did that one as well. So like they're absolutely, they're like crazy. So anyway, um, I'm just, I just want to talk a little bit about what everybody's opinion is about whether Hadden Clark is serial killer, because we know you told Jesus that he killed like up to a dozen other women and girls. And I really think that he, he could've, you know, I, I don't disbelieve disbelieve that, but I also think that, you know, it's hard to kind of sort out what was true for him and what wasn't. I don't think he knew what was true and what wasn't in a lot of cases. And, you know, I read something, there was one detective that said, you know, he was really hot and cold. Like he you'd kind of believe him. And then like, he'd, he'd lead you on this wild goose chase, but then there was another detective and I'm just going to see if I can find this quote. Now I know his grandparents had a place in Cape Cod and he had hidden it. He had some jewelry and things like that, that they found up there. And some of them, I guess, since he says belonged to Laura Holden lane, and they're not sure, I think where the others had come from. So, I mean, he could have just stolen from people or he could have taken them from victims. I mean, nobody knows.

Speaker 3: 1:03:09

So my answer is absolutely Phineas. Cause that bucket they found was over 200 pieces of jewelry.

Speaker 1: 1:03:16

And I mean, he did steal from churches and stuff. Like, I mean, he would like go in and he dress up in women's clothes and like steal from churches while people were in choir practice. Like Steve go through people's handbags.

Speaker 3: 1:03:26

She can't steal earrings and necklaces and stuff like that. And he had like this little silver wood nymph that he had on top of it. And he said that was his first kill his angel of death. So yeah, I, I absolutely, I believe that he, he killed more women up.

Speaker 1: 1:03:45

Well, there was a woman that was found and Jennifer, you brought this up to me a few weeks ago about him. And I was like, Oh no, no, no. I think he was too young. Then the lady of the dunes. Yeah, the lady, the lady of the dunes, or was someone that they found killed and Provincetown. Right. And that she was missing her hands and her face that's right. And he said he used her that he did kill her. And then he used her fingers for fish bait. I did read that, but who knows if that's true, the way that she was found though, evidently he, this is why people think that he might be responsible for this is because when the body was found, um, was I guess kind of laying on her stomach and her hands appeared to be buried. But what happened was that whoever did it cut off the hands and put like the arms or forearms in the sand, almost like she was doing pushups and nobody knew that detail, but he knew it. Oh, that seems pretty damning to me.

Speaker 3: 1:04:39

And I mean, overall, here's the thing. When you kill like that, you don't just kill ones in my experience over the years, just dealing with people. Most of it you've killed for a reason, you know, drug deal gone bad. Uh, someone's wronged you crime of passion. He's killed multiple times that we know of twice for petty revenge

Speaker 1: 1:05:01

And, and he's very comfortable with it. And I think he's not just comfortable with it. There seems to be an element of enjoyment. Like there's a lot, there's a lot that he does with it, right? Like he'll the cannibalism, the torture, the, he seems to kind of pre-plant sometimes he pre-plans like with huddling, he pre-planned, but, um, too much with Michelle door.

Speaker 4: 1:05:19

And I had read that, you know, of course some things he did plan and others, like you were saying were very impulsive. I mean, he's just such a, such a hard dude to figure out. And, um, along the lines of you're thinking Jen, like, I don't think he really knows what's true all the time. I think so too,

Speaker 3: 1:05:36

If you met him, you'd I think you would immediately pick there's something wrong with him, you know, he's not right, but I don't think you'd immediately jumped to serial killer. Why don't we hit him? He was more or less a model prisoner. Um, we had a directive, no female staff could be alone with them. Um, with the males staff members, very meek and mild for the most part, uh, very passive aggressive with female staff.

Speaker 4: 1:05:59

Uh, can you give me an example of how he would be passive aggressive, what he would do?

Speaker 3: 1:06:03

He's almost childish, you know, slamming down stomp and, um, snide remarks,

Speaker 4: 1:06:10

Which makes sense. Cause he has all that resentment towards his mother and he he's acting like a child. I mean, I hate to pin everything on the mom and make it sound like it's psycho, you know, like the movie psycho, but Jesus was saying that he's like he said, you know, Kristen was just awful, was a complete that personality. If indeed he, you know, had did. And then also he had another personality or claim to have another personality that was named Nicole and Nicole was uh, Kristen's daughter. Never heard that one. Wow. Did that come from Adrian? Um, Howell's book too. Yeah. Interesting. The quota was looking for earlier was um, by this guy it's from an article by Amy warden for the APB news, but she quotes a police, chief Richard Rosenthal and his quote. He says, we're dealing with a serial killer here. We don't know how many people he killed. So that's one, you know, one police detective who thinks. So I guess we have to, I would tend to think that too. What do you think Jen? Oh, I do too. I do too. I don't, as we were just saying, I don't know if he knows, you know, the full extent of his crimes or what what's true and what isn't true, but I do think he's killed other people. And I think Jim had a good point. Like, you know, he, he would still jewelry and things, but in order to, you were saying like he would do it in church. He would like dress up like a woman. And I guess when people aren't choir practice, this is just an example you gave that he would go and steal from their purses, but you don't normally keep a necklace on your purse. That's true. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:07:34

They'll keep it in their purse. You might do a ring. He may be, but I mean 200 pieces of jewelry.

Speaker 4: 1:07:41

Yeah. That's, that's crazy. So, but I also read that. He said when he gets out or if he were to get out, the first thing he would do would be to go kill his brother and his and his sister that are out because I guess one wore a wire and another maybe testified against him. God, quizzy had 70 years altogether, right. 30 for each murder and 10 for theft. He'll be, he'll be,

Speaker 3: 1:08:06

He'll be dead by the time his timer that

Speaker 4: 1:08:08

I was just going to say, um, again, I'm not a mental health professional, but I'm still not convinced that he didn't have paranoid

Speaker 1: 1:08:16

Schizophrenia and also did, but I'm sure he was just so disordered. It's hard to tease out any of that and yeah, because you know, with the whole, you know, preoccupation with revenge and he was very, also very, very paranoid person. That's true. That's true. In that I think along with like all the sort of, you know, developmental insults, he suffered as a child, you know, just like you had said earlier, Jen, like he didn't feel loved there wasn't a sense of love or belonging or being enough. And I think that's something that, um, when it's missing it could be really damaging, especially if it's on top of all these other things going on. So yeah. I, I mean, I think Hadden Clark and why I think he's so scary to me because he's really the perfect storm of a serial killer. I mean, he's, he's kind of got it all, you know, in a really, really terrible way. I mean, when you look at the picture, I looked up the picture of the victims and you know, you see Michelle Dorin, she's so cute. I mean, it made me sad that she kind of had a difficult childhood already cause her parents argued a lot and I'm just like, God, like poor little thing in her life. You know, you have, you lived six years and, and then you're brutally murdered.

Speaker 5: 1:09:28

Oh, she wanted to do was go see your friend was probably the bright point in her day.

Speaker 1: 1:09:33

I know exactly. Well, it's two, it's like just whole like how one little decision, you know how that just this cascading events are just like, I, I think too, when he, when she went to the house to ask to play with, with, uh, Eliza, is it Eliza? Eliza, Eliza. Yeah. He didn't his brother. He was telling them it was kicking them out. Basically it was only given him cause he'd been apparently jerking off in front of the kids. Yeah. So she was, she ended up, you know, being at her dad's house and then happens to go down and just that time. And I, you know, it sounds like, you know, Jim had said that if we, if we met him, we'd kind of know something was off, but you know, a six year old kid there things, I mean, I think kids can be very observant and can notice a lot, but things can also go past you. And I think kids are very trusting. They just, usually at six, you haven't had enough experience to really be leery of people. And I don't know, it's just, you know, it's like a monster in plain sight that are the monsters that you can't recognize as monsters. And that's another part of this that I think scares me because you know, there are people out there right now, walking the streets who are like that, and hadn't Clark is, was is, is creepy and disturbing as a story comms or to do a story on, I would agree with that. So we need to figure out something to toast on it. I don't feel like we should toast a hat and Clark, I think we should toast a Jim, who is our first guest firm has worked with these difficult cases.

Speaker 5: 1:11:04

Yeah. You're here. Thank you for you. I love your guys' show. I really enjoy it. Um, you're you're in my, uh, podcast feed. So to you ladies, thank you so much. Cheers everybody.

Speaker 2: 1:12:34

[inaudible].