David Wood has written an awesome book to help you become the leader and human that people want to follow.
No matter who you are or what you do, you are most loveable when you are transparent! And it’s now more than ever that our world needs more vulnerability, transparency, and connection. Both in our personal relationships and in the corporate world.
Whether you’re struggling with the challenges of an intimate relationship or the demands of high-level leadership, The Mouse in The Room is a succinct yet powerful guide to fostering more connection, influence, and understanding with partners, friends, family, and teams.
we welcome david wood to the show we're oh so excited to have yeah david on today how you doing david man i was doing great already and now that i've met you i'm doing even better that's so usual what people say when they beat i'm me excited what's that that's what i usually give people meet me like we i was so excited that i met you yes so i'm going to give you an easy question to kind of dive you in here tell us some give what's the best advice you've ever received i don't count as advice but one of the most amazing things that has oh changed my life is the worst thing that can happen to you a thought interesting and i didn't know that you know i lived my whole life as if the external reality is everything if i get more money if i do this if i get the house if i yes do whatever i'll be happy i didn't realize that what was causing my unhappiness was my beliefs thinking i didn't realize that that's actually my entire world and so that led to a hole yeah new way of life that i'm still developing what which do you is for ever unhappy what am i thinking what am i believing is that actually true the work of byron katie o that's amazing that's great so for the millions listening at home tell us something about yourself that most people don't know millions all right something most people don't know um i'm a real nut i'm a nude man sometimes i grab an envelope and work oh out the probability of of something happening using oh combinatorial probability and yeah i love data oh i love spread sheets and data manipulation oh i think it's why one of the things that helps with my coaching is that people come to me and there are hundred puzzle pieces and they're overwhelmed because they're inside it yeah i can see all the pieces and like well let's chunk it down get rid of that get rid of that get rid of that kay bring that up here a and what if you did this first this second this third we create plan yeah m miner that's one thing not everybody knows about me i used to be an actuary and when people who know what that is find that out they're like really you ye have a personality oh you know you know the joke is yes that oh an actuary is someone who didn't have the personality to become oh an accountant oh um so there that's so cool so you wrote a book but i'm always curious as for writers who were people that were major influences in your life oh byron katie paul low doesn't teach any more um m institutions like landmark education huge influence on me human awareness institute david data and the more house find them at lafe at more house dot com um those will be the big the big influences my life and then there are friends friends who are powerful people their own right and just being their friend is i'm sure is influenced me in many ways that's so cool so let's talk about your new book the mouse in the room tell us what led you to write it and little bit about the book thank you and i'm so excited to be on this show i know nothing about racism um you know the extent of discrimination against me is getting called names in school because of red hair that's it and then once i left school that stopped that's that's all i got so i know nothing about racism and i'm assuming you know a lot about it the what i know about is communication and tough conversations and how to thank this is what the book is about how to know yourself like what is actually going on in me and then share yourself with another so that they get it like oh that's your world okay well here's my world over here and you get each other's world instead of me presenting a front to the world which is what we normally do i'll show you the shiny bits i'll show you what i think won't get me in trouble and you show me the same and we're actors in a play this book and i'll mention the title in a second is about taking off the mask in every relationship that matters and i want people who are motivated towards reconciliation whether it's reconciliation with an ex wife or a kid that doesn't talk to you reconciliation with an issue having with your boss or on a global scale reconciliation for races in whole groups and communities i want this book in their hands so that people can use the tools because if you don't artfully name your experience so you just you just jump in with blame and anger if you don't artfully name it you could create a train we don't want to do that so the book is called mouse in the room because the elephant isn't alone the reason i call it that is because one day someone came into a course that i was teaching and said you've just got to name the thing like hello yeah good morning what are you saying you've just got to name the thing you've got to name the thing like what the hell you're talking about she said whatever is in the room yeah whatever experiencing yeah it might be a feeling of disappointment my betrayal or desire you have a toleration or maybe you suspect some things going on with the other person but you're yes not saying anything you've just got to name the thing because when you name it there's power the naming yeah of it and there's a chance to come into deep connection and i said you should write a book you should write a book called name that thing right and a year went by two years went by and and she hadn't done it and i kept coming a up for me the power of ah this one concept and then i thought what do we have in society that's close to this concept i thought about the elephant in the oh room you see it i see it no one saying anything well that's messed up and a you should stop ignoring the elephant in the room you should definitely address it but many animals in yeah the room are much more subtle call them mice m these are you this is your experience that the other person may have no idea about so yeah it can't be an elephant it could be a very big mouse sure it could be huge for you but maybe they've got yeah no clue so these are mice and the book is written to help people discover their mice and then decide if it's a mouse worth naming and then if you do decide to name it disarm the other person so that they're well set to receive mouse and this is the three this is d process or mouse naming and three d in the book discover side and then this um and i think this could be amazing for any is reconciliation i have used it to reconcile m i called i called someone who bullied me in high school and i hated him for twenty years and through coaching and encouragement and courage i called him twenty years after yeah high school and i use the process in this book and he went from a jerk to a friend that in that one phone call wow and then when i went home a couple of years later i to my home town he was there in the pub and normally we would have ignored each other he invited me to sit at his table and then invited me to come back to his house with a few friends and i was so scared what he'd think of me when i called him with with this this process and he said to me quietly at one a m outside having beers i don't think i ever would have had the courage make the call that you did that meant the world to me because i did care about his opinion and we used to be friends um m so again i have no no background or frame of reference for reconciliation when it comes to racism and i'm so interested in it i'm interested in like how can these tools support people who do know about it and who do care deeply about it and want to affect change i'm so excited for that you know i think what you said in the beginning of this is how how it begins its with communication and to have the courage to have the conversation you had with the person who bullied you is what's not happening in racial reconciliation we aren't having those difficult conversations about how i feel about what you may have said about me or how you treated me and so we do is we bury those things deep inside of us and we never deal with like you just talk about in your book we never deal with the mouse in the room even though it's a huge elephant that we don't deal with a little mice that contribute to big problem in the room as well right okay so that helped me because that gives me a frame of reference that i can connect with so let's talk about this arm because you said people know they're bearing these feelings and it's true of course we bury them because as a kid we learned if we got angry we got in trouble if we were sad crying we've probably got in trouble if you're anything like my childhood oh my parents did an amazing ah job because i think i am an amazing human being end they never asked me david how are you feeling work under the zoo now at night how do you feel about that you're angry totally make sense say more about that do you want to hit a pillow i'd be angry too in fact i'm a bit upset that we're not going to the zoo and that i can't take you i didn't have that experience so we and also i can only imagine if you a person color by pack is the term these days right yeah by i don't know you know i'm a white yeah guy right i'm like the epitome of privilege but if you i can only imagine m if you share your feelings with somebody that might be damn awkward you tell me about how that you feel discriminated against maybe i jump into defending myself right or maybe i attack you for something a i'm just trying to relate it to like my own sure experience so we've all squashed so we down both this stuff as and it's got to be even harder to share those things about racial inequality and so talk about disarming ah in the book one of the first things that i would do if i had something very difficult that i wanted to share with someone is i would ask for consent i oh huge instead of just launching into it hey i want to let you know that when you did this at work this the other day i didn't ay didn't feel good and i want something else no we're not going to launch into that as for probably consent not ask consent let's use a working example you know i feel like i let's suppose you give me an example that involves racism at work that could be very personal for someone so and very awkward to bring up so sure my personal experience is i have been in a conversation with people who said you can never ah serve a white okay congregation because they're not ready to receive a black pastor now fantastic now that's a that's a hard conversation to dig into and say why do you feel that way yes great receiver oh a black paste love it so well don't love that it happened i love that we have it as an example right classic right i'm imagining you know women are also dealing with this left right and sent a look they're just not ready for a woman in this in this yes role oh so it's got universal application so let's start with let's consent hey i like to talk to you about what you said last week i've been thinking about it and i want to explore it with you a little bit i got some thoughts and i got some some feelings about it and like to enroll you in an idea so i want to make a pitch as well oh when's a good time yea so we set i it up you can also include your why i think it could be an amazing conversation i think we could come out of it with a clear idea of ah what's going to serve yes the congregation and i think m i would feel way more empowered oh so that's why i'd like to have the okay conversation and you could also slip in i if you're nervous about it and a little nervous about m it because it's so close to my heart yeah and i care about the outcome and i want to have it because of this this upside that i've just mentioned so sharing your wires huge when you're asking for consent picker time they may not be a good time to walk into their office right now and do it get the consent for the for the meeting or the call or whatever it is and then once you have it okay it's your chance to share it a huge fan of i statements so you know when so you said that i did have feelings i felt upset i felt i'd been feeling angry feeling like oh here's another example i'm making this up right yeah top my head sure here's another example of me being tolled no because of my colour so i just want you to know you don't have to fix that i don't need to be saved i'm just telling you i had some feelings yeah come up and and you might pause and say you know i just want to check if there's anything you want to say in reaction to that and you don't have to fix it or save me i just wanted to let you know i might pause and see what what i get back and then i'd be looking to enroll the person and roll them in a possibility and say look in many ways you're right anyway you know this is going to cause some waves some people are going to be hell no not doing that oh i'm going to leave the congregation other people might be m wow this is an example of coming together an inclusion my and modeling kind of behavior we want to see in our religion and in our church i got to tell you keith i'm inspired just hearing those words yeah i agree i'm making this up like we're kind of role playing but then i'd be looking like to enroll the person in what might be possible so and have an open conversation and make oh my pitch for why this is good i could i could go on for thirty minutes pitching why this would be great for a yeah white congregation to have a black minister and inciting examples of all the different people in history that you know it's like we're not ready we're not ready we're not ready for for a black person to get on the butt on that school bus we're not a ready to share water fountains we're m not ready for a black now jumping over huge chunk of history we're yeah not ready for a black president not ready for a woman president we're not fucketing ready i don't know if i can swear on this oh but i'm getting a little i'm getting a little angry oh i'm feeling some anger in my body now just as i'm kind of m no tapping into this and i'm going to pause for breath ye and give you a chance to respond you know that's great because i think something you said about that conversation is really important i remember doing this when i did marriage counseling and i would always tell couples use eye statements because you statements are accusatory and you statements i always told them yeah you're going t start a fight with those when you say you always like you and always and you add those together yes our you're starting a fight so when you start with the business how i feel it does disarm the situation it also brings the tip down the room and the conversation you know you're not attacking some he you're giving him a chance to kind of get a sense of this is how this does happen personally felt to me and i want to give you a chance to kind of respond to how my feelings are you don't have to like you i like that too i ask you to solve it because i think that's the biggest part of the race problem right now is people are looking for this and else to solve the problem yeah and the accusatory yeah statements feed into that yeah if you look if you wanted to share your feelings i with me about racism i've probably got a whole bunch of mice that are going to come up in response to this you know guilt should be doing more feeling powerless like can i change something and this is let's step out of this they had huge his topic for a second just yes go to a micro topic if your girl friend comes to you or your wife sharing feelings for a man in particular we feel like we've got to fix that ship yeah i'm a solution guy there's a wonderful oh video on you tube you just search for nail in the head and yes there's a woman with a nail in her head and she's like yah i've got this splitting headache and the guy is like you've got a nail in your head h she's like you always do that o oh always try and fix things but if we just put yeah i just need you to listen to me so you know we often try and fix and it's awkward when people share their feelings in any capacity so you can head that off at the pass by saying you don't need to fix it and you can even coach them a little bit what i'd like actually just is just yes for you to listen you just give me a couple of minutes to get it out and then i'll check for impact and see if you've got anything to say but if you just just give me some space then i know oh that's what's wanted you've given me something to do and then yes if you're using statements and not blaming me it's going to be a lot easier for me to get your world you might even say i just want you to get my world a little bit just so i can feel sure seen and known how many times would that come up in conversation in the world i just want you to hear this so i can feel seen and known those are magic magic words and i want to bring that into the lexicon bring that into our culture i want to name a mouse with you m just to be seen and known don't have to fix it i just want you to get yeah my world a little bit magic can come out of that you know of your mouse is one of my favorite was a one mirror the mirror mouse because oh yeah i think especially in the race situation if people could just see it from the other person's perspective i think we would have a lot more conversation versus the accusations that flow from it or or the sense of guilt i think that idea of if i could just see myself in your situation i think it's so much more powerful to be able to be pathetic and sympathetic to causes that people are trying to bring up yeah well it's an advance tip in the book because i try to keep it very simple like boom boom boom boom and then if you want extra a and i think an advance tip is and you can ask yourself let's take that that person who told you that the congregation is not ready for a black pastor or minister if you can ask yourself this question it might be very hard to ask yourself this because you're so triggered with your own stuff know that happens for me i'm like i want to just launch in with my mice you can ask yourself right what kind what kind of person would say this what kind of person would do that that's access to step into their shoes for a second okay he or she might be scared about criticism might be scared about having people upset with them might be scared about losing some of the congregation and how might that be this is gold so that then when you come to them you could be more open to i think i can get why you would say that let's look at the negative stuff that could happen so i really get that you did that with me and i get to be really heard and understood and all my concerns yes i'm so much more likely to hear m a proposal or something else because you get my world as if you don't address that you're just launching in with your mice yes which is fine oh to start that way but if you just launch in with that i might feel like you don't oh get it right so yeah it's an advance tip to get the other person's mice as well but the book focuses on you start with knowing yourself and then sharing yourself in an artful way and magic happens i love for this going i have a question about this though for an organization how can naming your mouth improve the overall health of the organization thank you well let's talk about what happens in the average company what happens is you go to work you try not to get in trouble you present good front you want people to see all the shiny stuff so that they promote you pay you more and include you in the good projects and we just we want approval the problem is that that leads to feeling disconnected and isolated and you may not even know it because it's so normal now and everyone else is feeling it when you get moments if you've had those moments of really connecting with someone maybe you find out something about their life and you're like who me too um m connection happens we crave connection we crave connection and by not naming our mice at work we're just the thing is it's hard for me to enunciate the problems at the right enunciate no i think i got right the i think got the wrong word it's hard for me to lay out all the problems because they seem so normal it's just it's just whatever your the you've got at work right now yeah in terms of culture i want you to imagine yeah what it would be like if people m really got you if they saw more of you and if you felt real more known and accepted and appreciated what would that feel like at work and what can happen for the organization when everyone's feeling like that less gossip less complaint gossip is the cancer of organizations oh if people can actually artfully name their mice to the person who can make a difference about it no need to go and complain and gossip that's a massive cultural shift oh how much complaint is happening in your organization and how much of it going to the partner or to the therapist or to another right co worker instead of the person that they could really address it with ah like i would complain about the bully at school i think i'm going to go m and call him up hell no yeah i didn't have this book so reading this book having your team and your company reading this book is going to have people become oh the leaders oh that others would want to follow because they will be if they've got a toleration they'll be naming it hey this thing isn't quite working for me can we shift it don't you want that from your staff if they've got sure a desire i want to be more involved in this or you know i wish you would stop doing that which bugs me wouldn't you want them we're speaking that the problem is they've been shut down for so long what needs to happen isn't unraveling that and that can happen over time and it'll happen a lot quicker if the team has these tools you alone can do it you a can read the book and just start mass naming and modeling good havior and that can have a ripple effect throughout your company and your life but if you have other people also with this concept in their mouth naming then the culture can shift so much more quickly to one of inclusion to one of confidence to one of authenticity and transparency and appreciation now at yeah the bottom line you make more money make more money my teams will thrive and you'll be around happier people that's the bottom line i gave a long answer but that's the bottom line that's great so as a team how do you use this book as a team i'm making a note because i think there is such an important topic about how will the company benefit yeah how will this impact the team or how can be used i would have the team read the book get copies for all of you i mean you know check out the book first make sure it's as good as i say it is um m and then m we're actually going to have a special i think you're going to you're going to release this on launch day so if you're getting this on launch day the kendal version is going o be ninety nine cents by fifteen copies by twenty five copies by a hundred copies you can then go in and gift as as kindle books and little period in your staffs kindle or your kids or your or your partner your family your your co workers boss when i did landmark education the landmark form changed my life i had a whole new language a little awkward for the people around me because they're like what the hell just happened it could yeah be like this with the book and that's fine you can do it alone but i went and got my family and closest friends to go and do the forum fastest way to transform them ven do the form now we've got a common language oh my god what it changed with me and my mother me and my brother i even sent some clients to go and do this then we'll be on fire did i answer you yet a question about how teams can no you did it was wait great let me go a little deeper so once they've got the book you might find yea that in a meeting you might create that we're going to start with a run of appreciation mice okay who did something good what would you like to be acknowledged for let's have some appreciation mice okay um m any any any wants any desires something not working that we want to change do a round of that you if you're the manager and if you're if you're part of the team you can manage up and still make this happen but you can enroll people and why what if we were more transparent here's a great question what's one thing that we could do that could make these meetings a safer place for you to actually be honest actually say what's not working or what you really want or to be seen and known what's one thing we could do that might make it safer so that your team is starting to think about that you can bring up the concept of mouse naming i'm reading this book it's about naming my like being more transparent and i want to bring that into our meeting that's a mouse because you got a desire i want to bring this into the meeting because i wanted to feel closer i want this to feel i want it to be even more deeply connected and i want this to be a place you love to come to work so how can we do that and then you can bring in some ideas from the book yeah as well but you can build it into your meetings so that it's systematized is well i'm going to buy this book on monday because i can share it with all my staff i really appreciate we had this conversation oh thank you oh i thanks love hearing that i love this is you my baby my baby mouse and yeah i just got my i got my copy two days ago and it was so amazing to hold it in my hand it's very easy read too it's a hundred and seven pages which is almost the same size as who moved my cheese very easy read you can start mouse naming before you put the book down and then let me know how it goes that's that's what i want great so i want to ask a question i was like to ask the question my guests what do you want your i legacy ask to a be way and then i do have to go i'm loving talking to you and we could go yeah for five more hours yeah but ask away and then i do need to jump so we'll leave it with this question what do you want your legacy to be oh ah people have more permission he and the tool the mouse naming in three d process more permission and the tool be themselves in every relationship that matters that's great i i can love that if i can increase that by by one per cent say five per cent in the world and i would be a very happy man that's great so one more time tell me what i can find your book starting on the thirteenth oh i will and i have a desire mouse that i'm going to share so find the book at mouse in the room dot com it can't be easy than that there's no t in front of it mouse in the room dot yeah com there'll be a link to amazon and it'll tell you how a to get the cool bonuses that we're offering to promote the launch and my desire if you if you believe in this concept so and you want to help start a mouse naming revolution and shift the world culture here's how you can make some noise set your alarm for noon pacific it's ideal you might be hearing this after then that's fine noon pacific june thirteen monday which is today if you're getting it on the day comes out and by fifteen to twenty five kendal copies it'll be nine nine cents so it'll cost you twenty five bucks maximum yes yeah and then once you've read the book yeah go back a couple of days later leave a five star review if you think it deserves it and then you can also go and gift it in the back end on amazon to your friends and also you know once you've bought it go and share in social media that you bought it just put mouse in the room dot com on social meet hey this is a cool concept for the world i'm just getting the book go and get your copy that would really help us make some noise for this we're concentrating the efforts on june thirteen but any time you hear this envy you may not get the kindle special but go and get the book share it on social media share it with your friends share it with your team let's get the world naming mice that's great thanks so much david for being on i really appreciate blessings on your book thank you i thank you oh cool there we go