In this episode, Matt & Jenn discuss the negative impacts of pornography use -- even if it occurred before you were married. We also address the unmarried about how to deal with the challenges of finding out that your potential spouse has a porn problem.
Previous episodes about the problems of pornography:
The Intimate Covenant Podcast is sponsored by:
Open Door Financial Advisors
www.opendoorfa.com
Where finances meet faith and family.
Please support these companies that support Intimate Covenant:
To send your comments, questions and suggestions, go to our website: www.intimatecovenant.com/podcast and click on the button: “Contact the Podcast” for an ANONYMOUS submission form. Or, send an email: podcast@intimatecovenant.com
Thanks for sharing, rating, reviewing and subscribing!
Cherishing,
Matt & Jenn
PS — If you have been blessed by the message of this podcast, we would deeply appreciate your support by donating to our mission of spreading God’s plan for intimate marriage and holy sexuality.
Join us at Patreon: www.patreon.com/intimatecovenant
Consider a one-time gift: www.intimatecovenant.com/donate
www.intimatecovenant.com
Intimate Covenant | Matt & Jenn Schmidt
In this episode, Matt & Jenn discuss the negative impacts of pornography use -- even if it occurred before you were married. We also address the unmarried about how to deal with the challenges of finding out that your potential spouse has a porn problem.
Previous episodes about the problems of pornography:
The Intimate Covenant Podcast is sponsored by:
Open Door Financial Advisors
www.opendoorfa.com
Where finances meet faith and family.
Please support these companies that support Intimate Covenant:
To send your comments, questions and suggestions, go to our website: www.intimatecovenant.com/podcast and click on the button: “Contact the Podcast” for an ANONYMOUS submission form. Or, send an email: podcast@intimatecovenant.com
Thanks for sharing, rating, reviewing and subscribing!
Cherishing,
Matt & Jenn
PS — If you have been blessed by the message of this podcast, we would deeply appreciate your support by donating to our mission of spreading God’s plan for intimate marriage and holy sexuality.
Join us at Patreon: www.patreon.com/intimatecovenant
Consider a one-time gift: www.intimatecovenant.com/donate
www.intimatecovenant.com
Intimate Covenant | Matt & Jenn Schmidt
Hey, jen want to talk about the devastating effects of pornography on marriage.
Speaker 2:There's no punchline here.
Speaker 1:You're right, porn is no laughing matter and that's why this episode is about dealing with pornography in your marriage. Even if the porn started before you were married, let's do it. Welcome to the Intimate Covenant podcast, where we believe the Bible and Great Married sex both belong on your kitchen table. That's right. We're talking about holy covenant-bound intimate relationships with hot sex.
Speaker 2:We're Matt and Jen, founders of Intimate Covenant. We offer biblical teaching and resources to help married couples achieve a fuller relationship and an extraordinary sex life. For more information, visit our website, IntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1:Welcome, friends.
Speaker 2:Welcome.
Speaker 1:So good to have you along with us again.
Speaker 2:That's right. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Intimate Covenant podcast.
Speaker 1:Before we get into the episode, we are so happy to be back from Seattle.
Speaker 2:It was gorgeous in the Seattle area. Not really sure why anybody lives in Houston Texas when there are places like that in the country.
Speaker 1:The truth. The truth Much less hot there than it is here in the middle of the summer in.
Speaker 2:Texas. There's good people here in the Houston area.
Speaker 1:There are good people and we do have good friends here and certainly we're grateful to be back with our church family and our friends here in the Houston area. But we do have a little bit of a more serious topic, more serious episode today, not something that we like to talk about and not something that the church, unfortunately, has talked about, in my opinion, not talked about enough. We are talking about pornography and, in particular, addressing a couple of questions that came from our email and other messaging about pornography, specifically pornography use before marriage.
Speaker 2:Right, we've done a couple episodes already about pornography, but the difference in both of these questions is that they both came from individuals who are not married and wanting to know some different things about pornography usage before marriage and how to handle that moving forward.
Speaker 1:That's a little bit different angle than what we've talked about in the past, but certainly some of the previous things that we've talked about certainly apply. But having just come back from Seattle, we do want to also acknowledge that in just a couple of weeks we will be in the St Louis area.
Speaker 2:That's right. Have our next marriage day coming up and in that one, while we're out in St Louis area, we're going to get to do a singles event, Right.
Speaker 1:If you're not married, come join us in St Louis.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:You can find the details about that at intimatecovenantcom. If you would like to join us for the marriage day and if you'd like to join us for the Kingdom Singles event, you can find out more about that intimatecovenantcom S T L singles.
Speaker 2:Right, and so, while it's not our usual practice to target singles with our podcast episodes, as we've been contacted now twice at least by unmarried folks with similar questions about pornography we really decided to leave the norm and devote this episode to this audience of single individuals and to the topic of pornography use. Obviously, it is a big topic, it's a deep topic, it's a heavy topic, like you already said.
Speaker 1:And it's a widespread problem which is probably underestimated the number of folks who are dealing with bondage to pornography. But we do expect that this episode, even though we're targeting unmarried folks, that this episode is going to be helpful, I think, for any marriage where pornography has been an influence, and even if it's not an influence in your marriage right now, if you have children or plan to have children, there are, I think, some important things to gain and learn from what we're going to talk about today. Obviously, this topic is way bigger than just a single episode and that's why we've done previous episodes. In fact, some additional relevant episodes would include. Some of this came up in the topics of a Q&A in episode 113. We talk about a little bit in episode 91, episode 62, and I'll list all of those in there.
Speaker 2:You could certainly do a search of previous episodes and find this topic relevant, but we'll put that in the show notes if there's some other information that you'd like to glean from some of our previous episodes Right, but I think, matt, you bring up a good point, that one of the main reasons that this is such a hot topic and it is like you said it is not talked about and we're not doing a good enough job of talking about it in our homes. We're not necessarily doing a good enough job of talking about this in our churches, and so that's unsurprisingly. Then we are getting lots of questions from couples who are looking towards marriage and realizing porn has already had devastating effects within their relationship, and what do they do about?
Speaker 2:it so if you're a married person and you have children or you have influence over young people, listen to this episode and hopefully let's open up this conversation in a much more richer and deeper and taller way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would say from a statistical standpoint, if you are married, there is a high probability that pornography is influencing your marriage or has influenced your marriage. I mean, we need to acknowledge that this is a real problem and that's probably where this starts. I don't think, and maybe that's starting to change in the church and communities are starting to wake up to the fact that this is a big problem. I would reference just one study, although there are multiple, but one study in particular that was done by the Barna Group in 2014 basically showed that the rates of use of pornography among Christians and non-Christians is almost identical, and so, statistically speaking, you can be sure that at least, at least and this is probably a conservative estimate, but at least half of the men in your congregation, whether they are old or young, married, unmarried half the men sitting in your pews on Sunday are accessing pornography during the rest of the week, and that includes preachers and other leaders in the church.
Speaker 2:That should shock us all and that's sad and that is clearly such a huge problem. And yet, if it's such a huge problem, why aren't we as vocal as we should be?
Speaker 1:about it, and I would say that it's also, I think, important here to acknowledge that pornography is not just a problem for boys and young men.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Right.
Speaker 1:And this same study demonstrated that at least 30% of young women are accessing pornography regularly.
Speaker 2:Well, and this study is almost 10 years old, I would say that that number is very conservative.
Speaker 1:There are lots of other studies From the work that I have done with teen girls.
Speaker 2:mamas of teen girls, you better be asking your teen daughter not have you seen pornography? When did you see pornography and what's your battle plan for pornography? Do not be fooled into thinking, oh well, that's not a problem for teen girls, that's not a problem for young ladies. It absolutely is.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I would also. I think the other point to emphasize here, as we kind of introduce this topic, is that we have a limited definition of what pornography means.
Speaker 2:That's very true.
Speaker 1:I think, therefore, we are also in some sense complacent about what we expose ourselves to and what we allow our kids to be exposed to in terms of sexually inappropriate content and the harmful messaging about sex that is in most of our media, social media, tv movies, whatever it is. There is a ton of bad messaging about sex that all of us are being exposed to.
Speaker 2:That's just as damaging, right.
Speaker 2:I mean I think our typical, like the way that we defined pornography is like graphic pictures or clips or movies that are made specifically for the purpose of sexually stimulating us. Right, but don't overlook the fact that there are many popular and widely accessible TV shows and movies and books even that are sexually explicit and contain otherwise inappropriate content. I mean the things if you just casually scroll on Netflix, the things that you are seeing as an option for your young person to watch on Netflix, as an option for us to watch on Netflix is just as much pornographic as some special website that you pay money for.
Speaker 1:So while society may not necessarily call it quote pornography, that kind of content is equally immoral. It is equally harmful to your sexuality and to your children's sexuality. So it doesn't have to be rated R or TVMA to be promoting inaccurate, immoral and harmful ideas about sexuality. The truth is, all of us are being influenced by pornography and this pornographic culture, as it were. Because listen, I mean, if you have access to the technology that is necessary to be listening to this podcast, if you are hearing our voices now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, If you're watching us on our YouTube channel.
Speaker 1:If you're watching us on YouTube you are absolutely being influenced by ideas about sex that stem from a pornography-soaked culture.
Speaker 2:Right and I think that's a good point to make, and maybe we'll get into that a little bit more. You might be sitting there and thinking, yeah, but I don't watch pornography. I've never watched pornography, so this really isn't as relevant to me. But even if that's the truth, the fact is we are all living in a culture that is highly, highly influenced by pornography, and we're raising children in that culture, so we absolutely have to do a better job and have a more robust conversation about this 100%.
Speaker 1:Now a disclaimer is necessary here. It is a contentious statement among the academics who to refer to a so-called pornography addiction or a so-called sex addiction, since in a academic sense the pathology and the treatments for sexual compulsive behaviors and pornography addictions are not necessarily the same in all cases. Just recognize we may say pornography addiction, don't send hate mail because we're not using academically appropriate terms. Recognize that we are using that term accommodatively to refer to porn that is frequent and habitual and compulsive in use or is otherwise harmful to individuals' morality and living in a righteous way, and also harmful to your relationships.
Speaker 2:And also, as we're stating, disclaimers. Our primary purpose with this episode is to point people to resources designed to help people overcome this bondage to porn. But we're not trying to put ourselves out there as the qualified people. We're starting the conversation. It's not our purpose to say we're the experts. I hope you all know by now. It's not our purpose to ever say we're the experts. But we want to help marriages and we certainly identify that pornography use before and during marriage has profound negative effects and we see couple after couple. We're, just because of what we've chosen to do, we're able to meet so many of you all and we hear the stories all the time of how pornography is devastating marriages, has devastated marriages, and just so many people who their marriage may not be devastated necessarily by pornography, but they're just struggling to know how do we deal with it? How do we deal with it if it was a part of our past? How do we deal with it moving forward? We just have to have more resources out there.
Speaker 1:So we're going to try to provide some resources, some guidance in that process. If you are in bondage, you're welcome to send us an email and ask where to go from here. We're probably not going to give you an answer, other than we want to try to point you towards some resources that can be helpful, and we'll try to mention some of those along the way.
Speaker 2:Right, but first, how about some great advice for couples both before and marriage, and that might be get your finances in order, right?
Speaker 1:Great advice we want to point you, whether you are married or not, to get your finances in order and help keep them in order, and we know someone who can help you do that at Open Door Financial Advisors. Derek Finley at Open Door Financial Advisors has been a great friend to us and a great source for this show, and he is there, and they are there to help solve financial problems, to help you build a future that is centered around your values and your dreams. So, whatever your financial problems are, whether you're just getting started, whether you have lots of wealth, whether you have a little money, whether you're old, whether you're young, whether you're married, whether you're not, open Door Financial Advisors can help you get that done and get it done in a way that is consistent with, and mindful of, your eternal purpose and your faith.
Speaker 1:And so that's Derek's been a great friend to us and a great help to us. We would certainly recommend him.
Speaker 2:Open Door Financial Advisors. Where finances meet faith and family Opendoorfacom.
Speaker 1:So we had two emails that as, as Jen mentioned, really kind of centered around the same kind of question. So we wanted to share those emails with you to kind of give you some perspective on where we are coming from as we attempt to try to answer the question and attempt to try to move forward with that.
Speaker 2:So all right. So those emails read and we've kind of taken some excerpt, excerpt, excerpt that word from from these emails, but they read hello, I don't usually do this kind of thing, but I was listening to your podcast on pornography. My boyfriend and I are about to get married and, prior to us, stating he was addicted to porn, he has assured me he has stopped and has not participated in it since months prior to us starting to date. Yet I realized as I was listening to your podcast that I have spent our dating time almost in denial that he struggled with that, because it makes me feel like I'm just going to be a sex object to him. We've talked about that in the past and he's told me that he that isn't how he sees me and not how he wants me to feel or see our intimate moments after we get married. But I'm not sure how to address this with him, as I know me telling him I still feel like that will hurt him and cause him to feel guilt for his past prior to us even meeting.
Speaker 2:And then another email that we received read last night my boyfriend told me that he struggled with porn for many years. He's been hiding it for the past three years that we've been together. He became a Christian about a year after we started dating, so there have been a lot of habits that he had to break, and I've been so proud of him. This is just one that he hasn't been able to shake. He told me that he can't do it alone and needs help. I know that he's struggling and I need to be there for him, but I feel so betrayed and scared. I just don't know what to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can certainly sense the pain and I think a common theme in these questions is that there was porn use. These folks are not married, but the porn use even before these people met is influencing the relationship and now and there is fear of that causing problems in marriage in the future and so those are kind of the things that we want to address with this episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, both of these young women are acknowledging like obviously this is a problem that has been a part of his life well before me, but it is a problem that affects me Right. And, but they're also both expressing. I don't want to heap guilt upon him, but I also don't know how to deal with the fact that I feel shame at this Sure.
Speaker 1:even though it's I am hurt, right, even though it's his problem, it is affecting me as the potential spouse. And what do we? How do we handle that? What do we do about that?
Speaker 2:And I just really appreciate both of these young women reaching out to us. You know, we know in one case this couple was referred to us by a married couple that listens to this podcast and our supporters of intimate covenant, and thank you all for that. We don't say that enough, but thank you for recommending us even to those that aren't married yet. It's very humbling to know that you're. You are sensing that this has something that you didn't have before you got married and maybe you want you want couples to have that and we're thankful and that you trust us, that that is definitely and well most of our episodes, we would say, are meant for those living in covenant marriages.
Speaker 2:It is humbling to know that that you know so many of you are wanting to share this with those that are heading into marriage, because that's important, so thank you for that. You know. As always, if you have questions for the podcast, please, please, reach out to us. You can visit our website, intimate covenantcom slash podcast. Click the contact the podcast button If you would like to submit an anonymous question, or you can always just email us at feedback at intimate covenantcom.
Speaker 1:Yes. So thanks for listening, thanks for referring, thanks for recommending the podcast. So let's get to maybe the root of this question, and that is is porn use, even porn use before marriage, even porn use before your relationship? Is that a red flag for a premarital couple, for an example, for, in other words, a couple that is not married yet, that if my fiance or my boyfriend or girlfriend has a history of porn use, is that a red flag? And let me just be simple in the answer, and that is yes, yes, absolutely yes. That is a red flag.
Speaker 2:Is it a deal breaker? Not necessarily right. You know. We certainly would never want to encourage a couple to hide porn usage because they're afraid that our advice is going to be well. That automatically means you know you have to break up with this person. But right?
Speaker 1:I'm not. We're not. Let's be clear from the outset. We're not saying that you should just break up with this person. It does mean that you should put a pause on everything, especially your commitments, and we'll maybe get more into that later. But it is definitely something that must be dealt with because if it is ignored, if it is dismissed, if it is otherwise just downplayed, there will be profound consequences in your relationship later on.
Speaker 2:And I think this is where we've done a lot of damage for young couples, to be honest, because I think we have had a general attitude of just don't talk about it, just look the other way. We know, yeah, most, most young people are being exposed to porn, but you know, as long as once they get married it'll be fine.
Speaker 1:It'll be fine. Yes, we've taught our young people that all of your sex problems go away when you get married.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so we act like yeah, we know, the reality is most young people have been exposed in some form or fashion to porn, but it's just really not that big a deal. And again, we're not experts. But we are here to tell you. We have now been in contact with enough young marriages and old marriages to say it is a tremendous deal and we're not doing anybody any favors by minimizing it, yeah, and marriage does not fix your porn problem.
Speaker 1:Marriage doesn't fix your sexual desire problem, your lust problem. It doesn't fix your heart problem. So stop trying to convince yourself or convince others that getting married is going to solve all of your sexual immorality that you're dealing with before marriage, because it doesn't.
Speaker 2:Or that porn isn't really that big a deal. It is, and we'll get into maybe some of the reasons why that is in a minute. But here's the thing Before you get married, you have really a whole lot more influence and leverage than after, and so that means that you have to deal with this now.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Before you're married is when you can have the biggest impact on whether this behavior is going to change or not. Right? Because, again, your purpose when you're dating is to seek clarity, and you must seek that clarity. You must know, you must find out who this person is and what their character is before you get married, and if you don't do so, you don't do your due diligence. If you don't investigate, if you don't push and ask the hard questions, you're going to find out too late about who this person really is.
Speaker 2:Well, that maybe gets to a whole other topic. Side note, if you have us come, do the singles kingdom talk that we've been able to do multiple times. This is where we get into deep about this. But your purpose in dating is actually not to immerse yourself into all the romantic feelings possible and have all the fun that you can potentially have with this person. When we make that the purpose of marriage I mean the purpose of dating guess what we're setting these couples up for getting married before they really have the clarity about one another that they should have.
Speaker 1:You need to be using your time wisely in dating and use your time to carefully judge the character of this individual Right, because if there's unhealthy or toxic or abusive or otherwise dangerous or detrimental behaviors or bad attitudes, poor attitudes, if those become manifest while you are dating, you need to get out. You need to not bind yourself or join yourself in covenant to this person who has these kinds of unhealthy behaviors and attitudes Right. It is not your responsibility to fix this person, no matter how deeply you may feel committed. If you're not covenantly bound, it's not your job to fix them.
Speaker 2:Well, it's never your job to fix them. That's Jesus Christ, because you can't fix them. Yeah, that's his job.
Speaker 1:You should not feel obligated to stay with this person who has problems Now. You can certainly stick around and be a help and a support as a friend, but don't bind yourself to someone where you know that they already have serious character flaws Right Now. How does then previous exposure to porn, even if it happened before marriage? How does that change someone's perspective? What is the damage that is done? Why is this such a big deal?
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that's a great place to go, because this gets to the heart of how we think well, it's just really not that big a deal. Or yeah, we know it's bad, but I mean, is it really that bad? It is a terrible, terrible lie to believe that you can use porn without there being any consequences. We have to stop believing that lie. We have to stop supporting that lie. We have to stop spreading that lie.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I mean pornography use, particularly repeated, particularly using pornography as a means of self-gratification. That all shifts and shapes a person's mindset about sex towards a self-centered view of sex. Therefore it is a misuse of the gift of sexuality and that misuse and altered priorities, all of that changes how I view sex and all of that changes how I engage with sex. Moving forward, because sex and sexual desire and again this is maybe a whole other conversation, but the purpose of sex in a relationship, the purpose of sexual desire as it's given to us, is designed by God to draw me out of myself and toward another person. It's designed to join me to another person and make us one. Porn subverts that design and it short circuits that process and it teaches a porn user that sex is just simply for my own satisfaction.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It is a complete misuse of sexual desire. Sexual desire is created by God. It is a beautiful thing, whether or not you ever experience sexual pleasure in a covenant marriage. We are all created with sexual desire, but every desire in this life is meant to point us towards the ultimate fulfillment in God it is all. Desire is always about the fulfillment that God provides for us. The same is true with sexual desire. It is really about another. But when we choose to use porn and make our sexual desire all about ourselves, all about the selfish fulfillment, then guess what? That is totally shaping how you view your sexual desire. If one day you do get married, you then are entering into your covenant with a completely wrong view of what sexual desire is all about.
Speaker 1:Often, when that's the case, then we try to translate that into a new marriage with two people, but we are approaching sex entirely differently and we're not getting the connection, the purpose of sex, we're not getting the depth of connection that is possible and really is intended.
Speaker 2:Right and it's encouraging one-sided sex. But it also is setting up really unrealistic expectations. I mean, porn sells because it has features of perfect bodies, it features extreme acts, it's always it's pushing these boundaries in a very unreal way and it, frankly, is even showing unrealistic libidos and it is training your mind to think that is norm.
Speaker 1:Instead of developing and co-creating what is normal in your relationship. People are coming into relationships with unrealistic expectations and they're not trying to grow into what it could be between the two of them. They are trying to recreate what they think they are expected because of the pornography-soaked culture that we live in and from the books and the movies and the TV shows and the pornography. We come into relationship with all of these pre-existing expectations that are unrealistic and unhealthy.
Speaker 2:And I think another place that porn causes a lot of damage is that, frankly, porn eliminates the chance of rejection. If it's just you and a screen, nobody is telling you no, therefore-.
Speaker 1:And if you don't like what you see, you just click on the next.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so, therefore, the user becomes then inclined to pursue sex in extremely unhealthy ways, and so you then see an individual who has a very weak sense of pursuit, or you see an individual that also has a very entitled pursuit, because, again, it's not about learning the relationship, which sex was always meant to happen within a relationship, it's about just my own selfish gratification, and I can do that in whatever way I demand happen, and I don't have to worry about another person telling me no or another person having a different opinion. Those are the bad habits and things that are set up with porn that then make a covenant marriage very difficult.
Speaker 1:And the effects. Not only the effects on the relationship are profound, but the effects even on the individual are profound and they resemble in many cases the effects of other addictive, dangerous behaviors similar to drug addiction or alcohol addiction or gambling addiction or whatever it might be. Drug addictions result in poor relationships. In fact, lots of studies suggest that where there is frequent porn use, that there is a 300% increased risk of divorce in that relationship.
Speaker 2:Do y'all hear that If there was any other problem in our church that was causing a 300% increased risk of divorce whether or not you're a churchgoer or not don't you think we would be fighting this? Why are we not fighting this problem?
Speaker 1:I don't understand. But besides poor relationships, it causes individuals. There's study after study to show that those who have compulsive porn use or frequent porn use have decreased productivity at work. These people also decline in their social relationships and their social engagements and they also even make poor financial decisions. So it doesn't just affect relationships, it affects the individual, which then of course in turn further diminishes those relationships. So it has profound effects individually and relationally. So even if you're not married, even if you're not dating someone, there are dangers to porn use and negative effects.
Speaker 2:This is just the tip of the iceberg. We didn't want this whole episode to be about effects of porn on an individual and on a relationship. We're going to move on from there. But I will tell you, if you dig in deep, I mean, it is just profound. The negative, negative effects on a person's even their brain chemistry is changed. So it's a big deal and if you're someone who has been caught up in porn, at this point you might be feeling pretty low, right.
Speaker 1:And this is not meant to shame you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it's not. So I think where we can next go with this is how do we provide help? How do we provide help for those that are dealing with porn habits that started before their marriage?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say specifically relationships where either you are not married yet and there has been porn use, or maybe you are married and the porn started well before you were married, which is, for most cases, that's how it starts. I mean, the average exposure of pornography for young men is like 12 or 13. So it's happening earlier and earlier and for most people, especially young people, even in your 20s or 30s, the pornography started when you were 15 or 16, sometimes earlier. So the first thing is, I would say, if you are dealing with pornography, if it is something that is still a regular occurrence in your life by regular I mean daily, weekly, monthly, or you have periods where you're using it regularly for a few months and then you stop for a few months that's all considered regular, frequent porn use.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we hear regular porn users and we think, oh, they're accessing it multiple times a day. No, I mean, those people are out there, but it's also those that are accessing it periods of time and then not, but then they end up going back to it.
Speaker 1:But right, it's the same thing. Where you do it, you feel bad, you stop for a minute and then you are back into it. And I would say, if that is your case and that is the case for most people who are still under bondage to pornography you have to get help. And because I will tell you that accountability is the key to changing your life, if you want something to change, if you want a behavior to change in your life, there has to be some accountability there, and so that means you've got to find an accountability partner who is not your spouse, not your fiance, not your boyfriend or girlfriend.
Speaker 2:Maybe not even your best friend, who's also dealing with the same thing. That may not be very helpful to you.
Speaker 1:Well, for young people. Yes, I would say that this needs to be someone who is older, someone who, preferably, has already overcome the pornography addiction, who's already overcome that bondage and can give you good, solid advice, and who is not afraid to ask you the hard questions, because your spouse sometimes, or your boyfriend or girlfriend sometimes, doesn't want to know the answer and you're not going to be willing to often tell them the truth. There's too much on the line if you tell them the truth, and so you're not going to tell them the truth in every case.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, and on the flip side of that, like you were just saying, don't put that pressure on your fiance or on your boyfriend or girlfriend, because again, they don't want to hear the answer, so they're maybe not willing to ask the question. You need someone in your life willing to ask the question. And I will just say right here I know that this is the step where so many people go oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Not only do you want me to own up to this, but then you want me to tell somebody and have them ask me, and then I'm supposed to tell them yes or no. Have I looked at pornography in the last week? You know that feels vulnerable.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes it is. Yes, it should be uncomfortable. It will be uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:But you need that pressure in order to break this bondage. Do not believe that you can do this on your own. If you could do this on your own, you probably already would have. You need the addition of the pressure and the accountability from someone else. It's about relationship. Be vulnerable enough to choose better for yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and your spouse or your fiance, your boyfriend, girlfriend. They don't need to be your accountability partner because they're going to be dealing with their own stuff. From this level of betrayal, finding out that you have this problem is going to be a bombshell. In many cases it's going to be hurtful. In some cases there's going to be some grief and they don't need to deal with their own grief and your problem. So don't put that on them. Find someone who will be willing to hold you accountable. There are lots of groups that are willing to do this. Your church, hopefully, has a program and some people there who already know how to do this and can, who can, help you do this. Maybe so I hope so, but unfortunately probably not. Many churches, maybe most churches, particularly conservative churches, don't have the kinds of resources necessary or set up or established to help young people deal with this profoundly prevalent problem.
Speaker 2:I mean again. It blows my mind to know that we have something happening within our pews that is causing so much damage and yet we are silently allowing it to happen. Satan is winning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean in this realm he is winning. So find a group. We talk about the Conquer series. We've talked about that in some previous episodes. That's one that we can recommend because I have some personal experience with it.
Speaker 1:But there are lots of others available. If you just do an internet search for porn recovery groups in your area maybe faith-based pornography recovery groups you'll find lots of hits. If you live anywhere close to other people, you'll find lots of options to attend, and I will say that in-person groups or one-on-one counseling with a professional or licensed counselor is going to be best. Those aren't the only options, but those are probably the best options because it helps build relationships and it helps build in that accountability that you're going to need in that group. But you've got to get some help and along the same lines, I would say, in addition to those groups, you may find that doing some individual counseling with a licensed counselor, even if it's not specifically for the pornography, doing some individual counseling, can help you learn to reframe your sexuality as a whole, Learn to explore why you are drawn to porn in the first place.
Speaker 1:Why is this the coping mechanism that I have chosen? What is it that I am trying to cope with. What are the triggers that are making porn use more appealing to me? Are there emotional or spiritual wounds? Are there other things that need to be healed? So find some more healthy coping mechanisms, and an individual counselor or licensed therapist can help you do that, if that's your problem.
Speaker 2:Right. So that's kind of the advice for those who are in bondage to porn. But what about some advice for someone who's a potential spouse or even a current spouse?
Speaker 1:That's who wrote the email Of a user.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right. Our two emails came from two young women who are considering marrying men who have had this bondage problem. So I think the first piece of advice is that you have to insist on a solid plan to move forward, and this is going to help provide you the security and the reassurance that you need. And so that starts with first insisting on accountability outside of you. Yes, you can't just let it sit at.
Speaker 1:Well, he said he was going to pray more about it and read the Bible more. Or he said he's doing better. I mean he said he's done with it.
Speaker 2:You may have had a moment where he did admit or she let's be very clear with our language.
Speaker 2:you may have had a moment where your fiance or your boyfriend girlfriend admitted to you and it was a heartfelt, deep moment and you cried together. And then you were terrified the next week to ask did anything happen? And often that's about where it lasts. And if it does come up again, your boyfriend or girlfriend may say things like I'm doing better, it was good to be able to admit it to you, but I'm just going to do better. That's all well and good and I don't doubt the sincerity, but I will tell you that's not enough.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:You have to insist on accountability, and if you see resistance to accountability and by accountability again I mean drawing in an outside accountability partner, that is not you If you see resistance to accountability, please know that that is a huge red flag.
Speaker 1:Yes, unwillingness to involve others in your marriage is unhealthy, it is unwise and it is unbiblical.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Because if they're not willing to get help with this problem, what else will they insist on hiding when you are married? What other problems are they going to refuse to get help with down the road? And I think those are important considerations, because without this outside help, you're going to be isolated from the resources and isolated from the relationships that you're going to need in your marriage.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Insist on transparency and insist on accountability.
Speaker 2:Right, and are they willing to disclose everything? And it may not be appropriate for them to disclose everything to you, but are they willing to disclose everything to a therapist or a spiritual mentor or an accountability partner? Again, insist on that. They need to have a place where they are willing to be completely vulnerable and transparent.
Speaker 1:And if you're not married, there are certain things they should not be sharing with you.
Speaker 2:Right, absolutely I think we do need to be very careful, because hopefully we do have unmarried people listening to this episode. It is not appropriate for you all to discuss completely your sexual experiences at this point, but there needs to be someone else that is involved in helping this individual. And so, again, the question is are there other places of hiding, deceit, lying and withholding that is going to be a part of their life, or is a part of their life, or might be a part of your marriage?
Speaker 1:Again, are there other places where they just are not willing to share, not willing to be transparent with you, that would certainly be a red flag. If it's not because pornography is its own issue, but if that is bleeding over into other areas, that is a bigger issue. So our advice take it or leave it. But our advice, specifically in dealing with this personally and in dealing with the number of couples that have come to us with this kind of problem, our advice is do not marry someone that hasn't been cleaned from porn use for at least six months.
Speaker 2:I know that feels drastic, but you know it's radical living right.
Speaker 1:And this is a big deal and could have really potentially bad consequences for you and for your marriage moving forward, so if you're not already engaged and this is revealed to you do not get engaged.
Speaker 2:If you are already engaged, don't make a single other commitment until you have assured that your fiance is working on this problem.
Speaker 1:And by working again. That's transparency, accountability and getting the help.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Don't place any more deposits on venues. Don't send out save the dates, don't send out announcements or invitations. Don't buy a dress whatever it is. Don't make any more commitments until you know that they are headed in the right path and that they are on a path again, at least six months. You just need to know, because one or two months or a few weeks is not enough to know that they are willing to do what it takes to deal with this issue.
Speaker 2:Well, it's frankly, and again this gets into, like all the things that are happening within the brain, which we just didn't have time to cover, but just know that one or two weeks is not enough for those pathways to change.
Speaker 1:One or two months is not enough.
Speaker 2:You don't want to enter into marriage with someone whose neuropathways aren't properly wired to have sex with you, because then it's going to affect the sexual union that God intended to be a beautiful gift for you.
Speaker 2:And so you know, you just need to step back from the process a little bit and be willing to delay your plans. I hope that we have convinced you that it's worth it and that you know you need to pay attention to this problem. And if you're already married, you need to seek help and you must insist on accountability, even if that porn use happened before you were married. It's know that it is worth digging into a little bit with a counselor who can help both of you process this in a helpful and meaningful way, because you have to deal with it. You can't just pretend like oh, it happened, I don't, you know, but we'll just leave that in the past and it hasn't affected me.
Speaker 1:It's not going to affect us. That's just simply not true. But especially if the porn use is current or recent, you definitely, as a spouse, need to insist on accountability and insist on transparency.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So again, depending on the level of trauma, the level of betrayal, depending on your history, again you might want to consider individuals counseling, perhaps even couples counseling to work through those specific and even general challenges that you might have in the relationship. So again, I think we've made our point clear. This is something you have to deal with, even if it's happened before you were married. If you're not married yet, you absolutely should be dealing with this and address this and deal with it. Now, if you're a parent, if you're a preacher, if you're a pastor, if you're a mentor, if you have any influence, if you do premarital counseling, whatever it is, you must address this topic.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean parents. We have to be having regular conversations about sex and pornography. We've heard it said before and you've heard us say it these conversations should be 1,001 minute conversations. You must be talking with your teenagers, with your young people. Do not avoid this conversation.
Speaker 1:And I think that's true even for premarital counselors. Even if you're a preacher who's doing premarital counseling, you have to address this topic. You're not doing them any favors by feeling too awkward or too uncomfortable to address this topic. You have to address it, and if you're looking for premarital counseling, you should be looking for premarital counseling. By the way, if you're looking for premarital counseling, start early. Consider doing some counseling even before the engagement, before you've made any of these commitments.
Speaker 2:I wish we called it pre-engagement counseling.
Speaker 1:And honestly, we think that that's probably more valuable than the counseling that people get a week or two before the wedding when they're not paying attention to anything. But before you've made the commitment to be engaged to someone, you need to know and you need to have some really important conversations, and those conversations should be guided by someone who is wise enough to help you make those decisions and assess your relationship in general. Right, we get this, so Again it's another, whole other topic, whole other down the road, but we have to invest in this.
Speaker 2:Right. We get this so backwards because we spend so much time planning that wedding day and if you spent more time looking for a dress than you did even in your premarital counseling, you might have your priorities backwards. So just consider that.
Speaker 1:And you might have to pay for it. To get quality, comprehensive premarital counseling, that's a good one. You may have to pay for it, even if it doesn't come free from your preacher who's doing the wedding. You may have to pay for it because, look, if your cake costs more than your counseling, you might have your priorities backwards. That's all I'm going to say about that. That's another possibility and you need to ask specifically if sexual topics are going to be covered.
Speaker 2:Yes, listen, y'all. You can contact Open Door after you get back from your honeymoon. You can handle the finances. Please be talking about sexual topics in premarital counseling, and if your premarital counselor is not willing to talk much about sex, go find another one. And again, this really should all be pre-engagement before there's even a ring on it. There's some pretty serious conversations that should be happening there. We would say a whole lot more.
Speaker 1:There is a lot more to say.
Speaker 2:But I think we're out of time Again. Invite us to do a Kingdom Singles event in your area where we can get into this and way more topics about how we can best help our singles better understand their sexuality, avoid pitfalls like pornography and just better know what is sexual desire. What did God intend for me to do with this if I never get married? Many, many more topics like that.
Speaker 1:So we would love to discuss that with the unmarried folks in your neighborhood.
Speaker 2:Yeah, invite us to do that. All right, Matt, give us a wrap up.
Speaker 1:Pornography is a negative influence in society and may manifest terrible consequences, even if a spouse used pornography before they were married, prior to getting married, this issue must be addressed in conversation and in counseling. Don't get married unless you are assured that your future spouse has dealt with past bondage to pornography. And those of us with influence in the lives of singles need to be a resource to help prepare them to avoid the dangers of pornography and to be a resource to help young people deal with the potentially devastating consequences on their future marriages.
Speaker 2:Now it's time to grab your spouse and your Bible and head to your kitchen table to have a conversation about pornography. Has pornography been a negative influence in your marriage in the past or present? How can you help younger couples overcome the same obstacle?
Speaker 1:We would love to hear your feedback. Contact us by emailing podcast at intimatecovenantcom or to submit anonymous feedback and questions go to intimatecovenantcom slash podcast. Thanks again to Derek and Open Door Financial Advisors for sponsoring the podcast. Open Door can be contacted at OpenDoorFAcom.
Speaker 2:Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing, rating and sharing the podcast. We're truly humbled by your encouragement and your support. Thanks especially to our Patreon subscribers for coming alongside us in a very real way. We love you. If you would like to join Intimate Covenant by supporting the podcast and our greater mission to share God's plan for intimate marriage with holy sexuality, subscribe at patreoncom. Slash intimate covenant.
Speaker 1:Until next time, keep striving and don't settle.