In this episode, Matt & Jenn respond to a listener’s question about struggling to recover from an infrequent and unhealthy sexual relationship.
ALSO, please vote on social media or by email to rename our Daily Check-In Exercise. Here's the finalists:
ANNOUNCING: Tampa Marriage Day, March 2
register here: https://intimatecovenant.com/tampa
Please support these companies that support Intimate Covenant:
To send your comments, questions and suggestions, go to our website: www.intimatecovenant.com/podcast and click on the button: “Contact the Podcast” for an ANONYMOUS submission form. Or, send an email: podcast@intimatecovenant.com
Thanks for sharing, rating, reviewing and subscribing!
Cherishing,
Matt & Jenn
PS — If you have been blessed by the message of this podcast, we would deeply appreciate your support by donating to our mission of spreading God’s plan for intimate marriage and holy sexuality.
Join us at Patreon: www.patreon.com/intimatecovenant
Consider a one-time gift: www.intimatecovenant.com/donate
www.intimatecovenant.com
Intimate Covenant | Matt & Jenn Schmidt
In this episode, Matt & Jenn respond to a listener’s question about struggling to recover from an infrequent and unhealthy sexual relationship.
ALSO, please vote on social media or by email to rename our Daily Check-In Exercise. Here's the finalists:
ANNOUNCING: Tampa Marriage Day, March 2
register here: https://intimatecovenant.com/tampa
Please support these companies that support Intimate Covenant:
To send your comments, questions and suggestions, go to our website: www.intimatecovenant.com/podcast and click on the button: “Contact the Podcast” for an ANONYMOUS submission form. Or, send an email: podcast@intimatecovenant.com
Thanks for sharing, rating, reviewing and subscribing!
Cherishing,
Matt & Jenn
PS — If you have been blessed by the message of this podcast, we would deeply appreciate your support by donating to our mission of spreading God’s plan for intimate marriage and holy sexuality.
Join us at Patreon: www.patreon.com/intimatecovenant
Consider a one-time gift: www.intimatecovenant.com/donate
www.intimatecovenant.com
Intimate Covenant | Matt & Jenn Schmidt
Hey, jen wanna talk about recovering from a sexless marriage.
Speaker 2:This topic is dead.
Speaker 1:Great. Today we're gonna respond to a listener's question about struggling to recover from an infrequent and unhealthy sexual relationship. Let's do it. Welcome to the Intimate Covenant podcast, where we believe the Bible and Great Married Sex both belong on your kitchen table. That's right. We're talking about holy covenant-bound intimate relationships with hot sex.
Speaker 2:We're Matt and Jen, founders of Intimate Covenant. We offer biblical teaching and resources to help married couples achieve a fuller relationship and an extraordinary sex life. For more information, visit our website, IntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1:Welcome, friends.
Speaker 2:Welcome. Thanks for joining us on the Intimate Covenant podcast.
Speaker 1:Here we are again, and we're gonna be talking about sexless marriage. But before we get to that, we had a couple of important announcements.
Speaker 2:Yes, this announcement is very important.
Speaker 1:I mean crucial. So if you've been following along the last couple of episodes, we have been trying to come up with a creative name for our daily check-in exercise.
Speaker 2:Yes, we covered daily check-in. We've mentioned it multiple times in the podcast and at every live event we've ever done. We did a whole episode about daily check-in a couple episodes back, but we've said over and over we hate the name daily check-in.
Speaker 1:That's just kind of what it came to be called, but we certainly think that there's something more creative out there. We just were stuck on what to call it.
Speaker 2:And you guys are creative. We heard a lot of you. Thank you so much to everybody who took the time to think up a name and send it into us. We love that.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you. We appreciate all the input and for all the encouragement that you also have passed along in doing so. So we have three finalists.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're narrowing it down for you we couldn't really decide on just one of these, of the dozens, literally, of suggestions that we got. We've narrowed it down to three and we want your input on what you think the best name is. You're going to have a couple ways to vote, so we're going to probably put up some social media polls next week or so. So certainly vote on the social media polls.
Speaker 2:If you're not following us on social media, you can find us at Intimate Covenant on Instagram and Facebook. We're there, we're there both. We have a dig, but we're there.
Speaker 1:Vote on the social media polls or just send us an email and let us know which name you think works best, and we would certainly love to hear from you. We're going to decide on this. Hopefully, by our next episode We'll have a big launch, a relaunch, the reveal of the name.
Speaker 2:It'll be so exciting. What email address do?
Speaker 1:they send out. Send it to podcast at intimatecovenantcom.
Speaker 2:There you go. Okay, so the top three.
Speaker 1:Top three. Do we have a drum roll? I don't. I need to program that.
Speaker 2:I mean it would be so much more exciting. But here we go. Top three Covenant Conversations Nice, I like it. Uses a little bit of our name, gets the idea across Great, okay, second, one Connection Point Also good.
Speaker 1:I like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really focusing on the connection that could be happening in the in this daily check-in conversation, all right, and then the last one little bit of a quirk to it is Quickie Connection. It's a kind of fun little layoff.
Speaker 1:I just I love that too. All of this, all three of these are great you could say hey, honey, you want to, let's.
Speaker 2:It's time for our Quickie.
Speaker 1:Time for our daily Quickie, little wink, little little nod.
Speaker 2:Okay, those are our top three Covenant Conversations Connection Point and Quickie Connection. So which one could you see yourself saying, you know, to your spouse, reminding one another, hey, it's time for for that conversation, daily conversation, that we're going to have to better connect us to one another. What do you think?
Speaker 1:Love. It All right, so vote on vote. Send us your email. Vote on social media. We'd love to hear from you and and want to. We want to know what you think and let's, let's, get something that works for everybody.
Speaker 2:That's right, all right. The other big announcement we have is we are coming to Tampa again.
Speaker 1:There we go, tampa, tampa Marriage Day. We will be there March 2nd.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Saturday March 2nd.
Speaker 1:Second, all day from nine to four. We are going to be talking about redeeming your intimate covenant. This is one, one of our favorite topics, one of our favorite themes Good material.
Speaker 2:We've never presented this material at Tampa, so if you've come to our previous Tampa Marriage Days, this will be all new material, new stuff.
Speaker 1:We would love to see you there If you're in Tampa or the surrounding area. You can find some more details and registration at intimate covenantcom. Slash Tampa fitting in. We hope you can join us.
Speaker 2:All right, okay, so getting into today's episode, nat. Today's episode is in response to a recent email question. It's from an anonymous wife. Just some details about her. It seems like she's in her late 20s and she's been married for a little more than five years. So little context there. So here was her email question.
Speaker 2:Hello, I've been listening for a while and your podcast has been helpful to me to redefine marriage and see it in the way God wants us to Thank you for your hard work and sacrifices to make this happen. I'm writing in because I feel a little stuck in the way of progress at the moment. Since the beginning of our marriage, we have struggled to have sex consistently and on a regular basis. Some years we have probably had it less than once per month, but lately we have been working on improving that. Recently my husband made a comment out of frustration that I am so picky. This hurts because I have been really trying hard to be open to doing things his way, and when I tell him there is something I can't do, I tell him that after a lot of thought. I know women are different than men when it comes to sex, but I'm afraid that I could use that as an excuse. How do I know if I am being too picky and creating problems?
Speaker 1:First of all, let's just back up and say we appreciate her willingness to look in the mirror and try to assess her role in the dynamic in the relationship that has led to this unhealthy and infrequent sexual relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so easy to point our fingers at our spouse and to lay blame on them and there probably is blame on her husband's part but I so appreciate the fact that she is coming at this from the standpoint of I don't want to go there. Just how do I help fix this? How do I fix my part of this? She's expressing that recently they together have been trying to improve it, and so it seems like that has really caused her to do a lot of introspection and trying hard to figure out what part she plays. So I just really appreciate her willingness and their willingness. That is the essence of keep striving, don't settle Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Well done to this emailer. You're on the right track.
Speaker 1:Yes, as long as you both are interested in trying to make it better and genuinely want what is best for each other, then there is always real, substantial hope for your relationship moving forward. We've been married for five or six years, and so you certainly have a lifetime left, really. I mean, look at us, we've been married for 26 years, so you got a lot more time left to get this right and to struggle with each other in this process.
Speaker 2:So who knows who you need. I have to wonder what would our email like this be at our five, six year market, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I mean, all sounded very similar, so anybody who has been married for any length of time has had periods and stages in your marriage where you're struggling, whether it's with sex or with anything else. So thank you for writing in, thank you for listening. You know that, of course, also is a huge compliment to us, and thank you for trusting us with this question.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So, speaking of trying to improve, yes. I want to ask everyone out there did you reach your financial goals this past year?
Speaker 2:Well, we're segueing into a little plug for our sponsor here, that's just a quick aside. Your financial goals. Are you afraid that next year will look a lot like last year?
Speaker 1:Or maybe you're, maybe you're feeling hopeful for the new year, but you just don't have a solid plan to really make your family's financial goals happen. Does your financial future feel uncertain? Does it feel scary? Well, obviously, if you've been listening for any period of time, you know that there is a lot that we want you to know. Our friend Derek Finley at Open Door Financial Advisors Derek can help you, regardless of where your situation is. If you have $5 million or you have $5 in your bank account, derek Finley wants to help you solidify your financial future.
Speaker 2:The best thing. I mean, you just made me think about this, matt. Derek is like a no judgment kind of guy and I love that. So often, I mean, we ask all these questions that were all emotion based, because money and finances are so deeply ingrained with, for so many of us, emotions, and Derek is so so a lot of us are ashamed or afraid to confront really. But Derek is not going to judge you, derek is not going to get on to you. He's just there to help.
Speaker 1:He's so awesome at that. He just wants what's best for you and he's going to educate you as well as give you solid expert advice that fits your individual circumstance. It's not a cookie cutter approach. Obviously, he's going to do a good job for you, so find Derek opendoorfacom where finances meet faith and family.
Speaker 2:All right Now to the main point of this episode. But let's first start by making an important point that's kind of a sub point of this full episode, and that is early struggles with sex and relationship should not be ignored. We enter into marriage so many of us thinking sex should just be natural, it should just happen and that's what we're supposed to be doing, got approved. Nobody ever talks about it, so surely it'll just all work out, and it often, most of the time, doesn't. But for some of us then there's so much shame that gets attached to those early struggles and it's real easy to just ignore that. Maybe you don't know who to talk to, where to turn, how to get help, but when you ignore those early struggles with sex and relationship it can very quickly devolve into something that is very toxic.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I mean. This email is a perfect point. She admits that they had struggles from the beginning in their relationship and that devolved into a relationship where they're having sex less than once per month for years.
Speaker 2:And they've only been married for a little over five years.
Speaker 1:So that really speaks to the point that these issues quickly get out of hand.
Speaker 1:And the problem is and this is Satan's game here that a lot of times it's shame, from wherever that may be coming from.
Speaker 1:Shame initiates that devolve, it initiates the conflict, it initiates the apprehension, but then it's shame that wants us to just try to ignore it, continue to ignore it, continue to let it devolve, let it just fester without addressing it, without looking at it. You know face to face, and so you know, some important conversations early in their marriage, maybe even before they were married, some important conversations could have saved years, literally in this case, years of pain, frustration and the heaping on of this needless shame. So again, not the main point of this episode, but I think it is an important point that is worth reiterating, especially for those of you that may be still young in your marriage, that if there are issues, if there is conflict, if there is a devolving of your relationship, then that needs to be addressed early, yes, early do not think that this, that somehow you'll just magically figure this out without any conversation, without any hard work, and you've got to address that right, right.
Speaker 2:So the details of why they struggled with sex in their early marriage are probably important to best understand their current conflict and then her internal turmoil. And obviously we don't have all of those details. You know, the questions to ask is is there a place where there has been past betrayal within their marriage? Are there other prior traumas that have happened to one or both of them, you know? Are there other sources of sexual shame?
Speaker 1:yeah, there's a lot of reasons why this could be going on and obviously we, like you said, we don't have all of those details.
Speaker 1:But I think we can make some safe assumptions and I'll admit these are assumptions to a great extent. But we can make some assumptions about their relationship and I want to be clear that the assumptions that we make about their relationship are not that we're casting blame. It's just the likely reality of their relationship dynamic and it got that way for probably good reasons. They each probably have good reasons for why they're acting and reacting the way that they are. I doubt very seriously that they are reacting the way that they're reacting because they just purely want to make each other miserable, right, you know. So that's an assumption that we're making, of course, but I think that's a safe assumption and we want to help them in in doing this. We want to help them reframe the dynamic. We want to see where they are and then reframe that dynamic and help them consider that maybe there are some different strategies right to try to address this ongoing conflict that's in their marriage.
Speaker 1:So I think one of the important assumptions that has to be acknowledged is that his sexual initiation strategies are feel are pressuring to her. They feel pressuring right to her. Now, again, maybe they should feel pressuring because maybe she needs to feel a little bit of tension in order to help her grow a little bit. Maybe, that said, his techniques or his ways of expressing his needs perhaps could use some refinement right to help her feel more secure. So we're going to talk about that right.
Speaker 2:It seems also that she controls the sexual frequency and variety based on her own narrow comfort level, which she probably resents. I mean, so many responders resent being the gatekeeper and yet that is the position that they hold, that they are the ones controlling. You know what doesn't doesn't happen and when it doesn't doesn't happen, and you know it sounds like she is admitted to.
Speaker 1:I have a narrow comfort level and therefore what we do has to fit right within my comfort level yeah, there's that term picky, and we're gonna probably talk about that a little bit more later, but that that's it. So you know. Again, there is her. She is the gatekeeper. She may appreciate that on some level, but on another level she resents that right sounds like and that's like that's where her internal dialogue is occurring. Am I? Am I being too picky? Am I causing or creating this problem?
Speaker 2:right. And so then it seems like there's frustration on his part. He's feeling rejected, yeah, due to her narrow boundaries, and that might just be his perception. She may not be actively trying to reject him, but that hit her narrow comfort level, feels like a rejection to him, which is causing, then build up, a frustration and maybe even then a build up of you know what, never mind, I don't even want it. Yeah, you know, a retreating on his part.
Speaker 1:That might be how he handles that feeling of rejection and and obviously she is in a place of needing to and wanting to reassess her boundaries yeah, I think it's safe to assume that from from this email that she wants to know, should I be rethinking where I'm drawing some of my lines and where or why am I comfortable or uncomfortable in certain circumstances?
Speaker 1:right so I guess let me first say, does any of this sound familiar? I mean, this is these kinds of this circumstance, these relational dynamics, are common, maybe ubiquitous, among married couples. This is the challenge. This is where you, when you put two people together who will inevitably have different levels and degrees of comfortability with sex and different levels of desire for either frequency or variety of sex, there's going to be this place of conflict. So I think that what we? We're not here just to try to solve their problems, because I think, when we look at this particular set of circumstances, this is applicable to, I think, every marriage absolutely.
Speaker 2:And again, I think if we were to have been the ones writing the email in our fifth six year of marriage, there would have been a lot of common elements well, absolutely you know maybe we say that to say to all of you who feel some connection to this there's so much hope, you know there's.
Speaker 1:There's a lot to be gained so I think, because this is such a ubiquitous problem, one one place where we could start with this is, I think, for every marriage, for every pursuer responder dynamic, there is a fundamental truth that must be true in your relationship if we're going to begin to get momentum out of this pressure and withdraw our kind of scenario. Because I think, regardless of what the underlying problems are in the relationship, whatever the specific details of the relationship are, the fundamental criteria for a wife to want to have more sex or for a wife to want to have different sex is that the wife must have the expectation that there is going to be sex worth having.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. If that sex, if the sex being offered, is not pleasurable, if it's not emotionally satisfying, then it's going to be hard to want to have sex. That sex has to be something that she wants. But she has to first start by wanting to have sex.
Speaker 1:It's nearly impossible to be motivated towards something that has very little benefit to you.
Speaker 2:Right If she's not feeling motivated again because it's not pleasurable, it's not emotionally satisfying, it's not free of shame.
Speaker 1:Or perhaps it is causing pain, or maybe not just that it's not all that fun it's like doing your homework but maybe it actually is causing more pain and suffering, whether that's emotional or physical or spiritual pain. If it's a source of pain, then there's going to be very little motivation, maybe no motivation. Perhaps the only motivation of the sex that they're having is actually to motivate her away from sex.
Speaker 2:Right Right. In order for her to want to have sex, she must be having sex worth having, which means she needs to feel emotionally, spiritually and physically safe within their sexual union.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. The sex that they're having must be mutually pleasurable, both emotionally and physically pleasurable. For the wife to be motivated towards that kind of sex, the sex that they have then ultimately must leave her feeling more closely bonded to the relationship.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:If those things aren't happening, then you're going to be spinning your wheels, so to speak, in terms of trying to get yourself or your spouse to be drawn towards doing it more or doing it differently.
Speaker 2:Right. Just putting your bodies together more frequently will not solve this problem. It is not just a matter of white-knuckling yourself into having more sex.
Speaker 1:Yes, I've certainly seen or heard advice or read advice from books, that if you just have more sex, then that will help to resolve some of the relational problems. I don't think that's true. If you keep having bad sex, it's going to make the problem worse, not better.
Speaker 2:Right, right. Both spouses have responsibility to meet these criteria. To meet that criteria of having emotionally, spiritually, physically safe sex, pleasurable sex, emotionally and physically, and sex that leaves you feeling closely bonded to one another, that has to be on the part of both of them.
Speaker 1:I think that's an important point, because when we say that she must be emotionally and spiritually and physically safe, people will hear that and think, well, that's all on the husband, that's the husband's fault. And so she's going to come back from reading or hearing our response and say, well, yeah, I was right, it is my husband's fault. That's not what we're saying. When I say that the sex must be mutually pleasurable, then what people hear is, oh, the husband's doing a bad job, he should do more foreplay and that will fix this problem. That's not necessarily true, because if she doesn't want to be there, then no matter what he does, she's not going to be able to enjoy it. This is on both of them to co-create I think that's an important term here. Underline that in your transcripts. Co-create they must both be engaged and invested in co-creating a sexual experience that will be mutually pleasurable, that will be mutually emotionally bonding.
Speaker 2:Right, right, I think. More on the mutual responsibility in a minute, but first I want to unpack a particular phrase that she mentioned in her email. It says recently my husband made a comment out of frustration that I am so picky. This hurts because I've been trying really hard to be open to doing things his way. When I tell him there is something I can't do, I tell him that after a lot of thought. I know women are different than men when it comes to sex, but I'm afraid that I could use that as an excuse. How do I know if I am being too picky and creating problems? I want to unpack that idea of too picky Her words. Her husband has described her as being too picky. What does that mean to be too picky?
Speaker 1:Is it true? Right, I think that maybe that is true. Sometimes the question reveals the answer in a lot of these cases, a lot of times what we find in our experience when we talk to couples. But what does that mean? To be too picky? I think that is a good question, is it true? I don't know that we can answer that, because clearly we don't have enough details to answer that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I do want to maybe go follow this conversation a little bit further and help her maybe answer this question for herself. Maybe, just as importantly, you as a listener also need to go down this road. Am I being too picky in some of these situations?
Speaker 2:I think, in order to try and flesh out what does that mean to be too picky? What really is behind that is that she's saying no to something. That's where he's deeming this as a place that she is too picky. The question to ask is what's the reason for saying no? Maybe some possible answers? Again, we don't know her, we don't know you, but we want you to dig into. Why do I say no to something? Here's some places where it could possibly be coming from. Are you saying no because of spiritual shame, whether that's appropriate or not? Is your no coming from a place of your own poor body image and you just can't put yourself in that vulnerable of a position because of how you feel about your actual body? Does that act leave you feeling too vulnerable, too exposed?
Speaker 1:Why is that? Is it because of your own internal past and maybe past traumas? Or because the way that your husband treats you do you feel too vulnerable to reveal yourself to your husband?
Speaker 2:At all, sexually let alone in one particular act?
Speaker 2:is there physical pain involved in what it is that's being asked of you, or do you just in general have physical pain with a lot of sexual acts that you've never dug into, never been willing to really figure that out? I think a lot of reasons why a woman feels an initial sense of no Towards a husband's request is oftentimes there is a suspicion of his motives. What I did, I wouldn't have thought that up. So where did he get that idea? Where has he seen this before Interesting? Has he wanted to do this, you know? So just trying to figure out his motives, sure Is it that you feel emotionally detached in all of your marriage, in all of your relationship, and because there's not a strong emotional attachment to one another, you're unable to then kind of get outside your comfort zone when it comes to a physical act or Position or whatever it may be, you know, is there maybe a fear of not being Adequate?
Speaker 2:so when it's something you've never done before, you can definitely feel a sense of I'm not gonna do that right? Do you think there's a right way to do that?
Speaker 1:and I'm Inexperienced, I won't know the right way to do that and I will leave him feeling Disappointed sure and so I don't think I'm enough to be able to do that I think a lot of folks struggle with insecurities on various levels and for various reasons, but some of us are just naturally feel more insecure with the unknown, and so Well, and that can be, it just a fear of the unknown, and we naturally revert to know Simply because it's unknown. Yes, right that have a whole podcast all by myself.
Speaker 1:About that sometimes. That, yeah, I mean that for some of us, the unknown is a place for adventure and that sounds fun. For others, if it's unknown, that's like the default is no. If I don't know, if I can't predict the outcome, the answer is no.
Speaker 2:So you yourself have to lean into why am I saying no, you know, and only she can answer that question, and that answer is probably layered. It's probably not. Oh, yes, that's the one answer. It's probably layered with complexities and it's gonna be tied into the general relationship dynamic. Absolutely this is not just a sex problem.
Speaker 1:This is all about the relationship and I think that's one important point here. This is not a sex problem. There's no such thing as dealing with just a sexual problem in your relationship, because it bleeds over and it is influenced by All of the complexities of your relational dynamic. How are the two of you communicating together? Are you communicating? Do you have an open communication in your relationship, or is there this overwhelming sense of pressure or fear, or dominance, or avoidance?
Speaker 2:You know all those different factors that play in and so that kind of leads into this next you know place that I would push into is just, is there conversation, right?
Speaker 2:So she says, you know, when he asked for something, I tell him there is something I can't do. I tell him that after a lot of thought and If I was in that same room with this wife I'd wrap my arms around her and give her a great big old hug and say that's not a good enough, because what you're saying to me in that sentence is that was all a decision you made inside your own head. I tell them after a lot of thought, meaning you didn't involve him in a conversation about this. So does she just get to consider it and act or reject on the invitation based on her own Self-determined criteria and preferences? If so, you're not building a relationship, yeah, you're just making your own decisions. That does not mean that there's not a valid reason to say no, not right now. That particular act I'm not comfortable with. However, you should only be reaching that conclusion after some conversation together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree with you. I mean what I'm hearing and, again, this may not be actually what's happening in a relationship. We are not sitting on the couch beside them, we're probably over simplifying this a little bit, but again, I think, for the sake of the conversation that we're having here is, what I'm hearing is that he's proposing something like hey, babe, we should try xyz and his method of proposal and she's like well, I got it, I got to think about this, I don't know, and she's hearing this even outside, probably, of the context of the bedroom, so there's not even any, you know, sexual energy to help kind of formulate this.
Speaker 1:She's hearing this out of context. Then she's making a decision after a lot of thought, which I think is we appreciate that she's the bowl she isn't just react, just reacting with no one, then never thinking about it again.
Speaker 2:Sure, maybe it's not, it Maybe it's not an immediate no.
Speaker 1:She's willing to least consider it, but then she's like well, I thought about it. No, I don't think this is for me.
Speaker 2:Rather than I think what we're proposing is, there needs to be a conversation right, because what you want to know is that, to every decision that you make as a couple in regards to your sexual Relationship, that that is a we decision.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, it has to be that, so his voice matters and this is what, this is what we mean by co-creating. It's not just like, okay, you get, you get a vote, and I get a vote, and then, because I said no, then that the end of discussion, you know.
Speaker 2:Move on to the next Agenda item so the question to ask her is you know, have you really thought about it from his standpoint, and is he able or willing to explain his desires? Maybe he Isn't willing. Maybe he's just proposing an act in the moment, but isn't actually wanting to have a conversation about it. If so, that's a place to to push back a little bit.
Speaker 1:This needs to be a conversation, so he must be willing to explain what's behind his design if you can't explain why, then it's just not important enough for conversation, probably, and he shouldn't be getting his feelings hurt if it's if he can't explain why this would be important to him.
Speaker 2:But also, is she willing or able to hear his express, to express his desire? So has he? You know, has there been rejection on on in any level of the conversation, part of this? And if so, that's a place that needs some mending. And you know, as you were going through that little scenario, a kind of threw it out there there. But how's he presenting this proposition? Right, it's, the timing matters greatly. If she is a classic responder, then most likely she does not necessarily want the very first time she's ever heard about this to be 30 seconds before he wants her to do this.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:That said, you did bring up like okay, but sometimes it's good to present it in a moment where there is some anticipation, some arousal already built up. We're way more likely to say yes when we're already in a place of arousal. So that means what multiple conversations should be had you need to be having the conversations completely outside, where you're defining what isn't isn't okay right now and that can always change. Be willing to change, obviously within the realms of what God has said yes to.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So you need to have those conversations at, you know, date night, but then you also need to be open to conversing even in those moments. But it's lots and lots of conversations, it's not just one.
Speaker 1:And I would just add you know how he handles that rejection will say a lot about what his motives are. How he handles that rejection will say a lot about whether she's even willing to consider it in an objective way.
Speaker 2:Right. Is he looking for connection or is he looking just to check the next you know hot new thing off of his list?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and really, I think you know in a big part of what we're saying is that this the conflict about sexual frequency, the conflicts about sexual variety absolutely are going to require an ongoing conversation between the two of them and it also requires a commitment from each of them to have as much connecting sex that is sex worth having. It's going to require that commitment from each of them to have as much connecting sex as necessary to continue to promote the oneness that is required in the relationship.
Speaker 2:Right. And so she, you know, in her email, tells us that almost from the very beginning, she recognizes they've not been having enough sex and she says sometimes, you know, as little as once a month. Well, you know, people always want to know how much sex should we have? How are we normal, which we actually did a podcast episode I think it's episode 50 right around there Are we normal? But that's the question we all have how much sex should we be having? Well, we're here to tell you that, according to the experts who study marriage relationships, once a month is not enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in fact, once a month would be determined as a sexless marriage, and you think?
Speaker 2:that we're having sex. It's not that it's never there, but once a month is actually falls within the realms that experts call sexless, because once a month is not connecting sex, correct.
Speaker 1:Correct. So this conversation requires that each of you must be able and have the opportunity to express their feelings. So not only do you need to have the opportunity, but you also need to be willing and eager to express your feelings, your honest, transparent, vulnerable, true feelings about what this relationship looks like to you.
Speaker 2:But then I think the other part of that is being willing to hear and sit in your spouse's perspective. That takes a lot. For some of us it takes a lot to just start explaining why we feel the way we feel, digging into that, but it's a whole another ball game when we really force ourselves to sit in the perspective of my spouse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this conversation is not a competition about whose feelings are more valid. This is a conversation about trying to understand my spouse's feelings. So that means I'm going to express my feelings in an honest and transparent way, but I'm also going to stop and sit and really dig deep to try to understand what my spouse is feeling in this moment.
Speaker 2:And within that, I think that the heart of that mat is service to one another, and each of you need to be committed to serving the other. So where does this start for this couple that wrote in? Well, it starts by recommitting yourselves to service to one another. That's where it all begins. It is not that I'm here to get my way and be happy. It is that I am here to serve you, my beloved.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and they each must be willing to hold their spouse accountable and to be held accountable Whatever it is that is harmful behavior in this relationship, whether I'm the one who's perpetuating that, whether my spouse is the one that's perpetuating that. We each need to be willing to say look, sometimes I don't see what I'm doing and I need you to hold me accountable when I'm approaching this in an unhealthy way. Right, and then be willing to be honest with myself. When I'm doing this, then I need to back up and behave in a way that's going to be more productive and more beneficial to the relationship.
Speaker 2:Right, and you know, sex is hard work, and so it could be that this couple has just settled into this place of it's too hard, and they both are choosing to not have the uncomfortable conversations, even moments, of choosing sex, and so you need to start holding each other accountable towards even the amount of sex that you're having. You know, this isn't about trying harder to do things his way or for her to not be picky. It's an ongoing conversation about co-creating a sexual relationship that is beneficial for both of you. This is a we problem.
Speaker 1:Right, it's not about yeah, it's not about doing things his way or doing things my way. It's about doing things our way and finding out what works best for our relationship. And I think along those lines, and maybe where this gets a little bit more practical and hits a little bit, maybe closer to home for this wife, is that there are some important questions that she needs to be able to answer in order to have this conversation.
Speaker 2:Yes, and, and, frankly, every wife needs to challenge herself to answer these questions, and that is can I describe a sexual encounter that would be worth having? So, for her, what is her ideal scenario? It is so we're not just talking about an act.
Speaker 1:We're talking about the entire sexual encounter.
Speaker 2:And what does the relationship feel like? That in order to lead me into that sexual encounter? It is so easy for women to just not think about sex, but if, if you want to fix this, it begins in your own mind, and that is making yourself be vulnerable enough to think about sex. So you have to start wanting to have sex. So what would it look like? What is your ideal scenario? And then, is there some room for expansion? Within that scenario, what would be required for you to begin to feel comfortable with expanding your boundaries? Now, obviously, there are boundaries put firmly in place by God, and that is the two of you, no third parties, and you're better in your head. We like to say you know it is sex that is not painful emotionally or physically, it is.
Speaker 1:you know all about sex that's mutually, mutually pleasurable and connecting. Those are the hard and fast. You know, those are the boundaries.
Speaker 2:But we're not asking her to expand outside of those boundaries, but within those. There's a great big old box of what we can do together as a couple within the boundaries God has put in place. Our challenge to all of us is how do we expand that Just a little bit more? How do you get outside your comfort zone when, especially, you have a spouse that has a bigger comfort zone than you? How do you serve your spouse in that way? So what would be required for you to feel comfortable? Expanding your boundaries?
Speaker 1:and I'm guessing that what will make her feel more comfortable in her sexuality has very little to do with what's going to happen in the bedroom, but this is probably going to be something that will occur in their relational dynamic in general and maybe even her understanding of sex?
Speaker 2:has she grown up with a very ultra conservative mindset from the standpoint of she thinks that there is just specific acts we would I mean, we've had a million episodes sure, sure the challenge, that thought.
Speaker 2:But you know, ask, ask yourself, as a wife, what is required of my husband and what is it that I want from my husband, and can I Express this in a way that motivates him versus Rejecting him? That's a huge, huge point. Yeah, you never want to express what it is You're asking your spouse to do in a way that Rejects, in a way that harms. How about we look at this as in a way that motivates?
Speaker 1:Yes, right, right. And then I think she's got to ask some questions of herself. What's going to be required of me in order to be able to Be more comfortable, to find more pleasure in our sexual relationship? What's going to be required of me to Maybe think about expanding my narrow boundaries? Is she going to be willing to do what it takes to lean into that vulnerability, to lean into that fear, and find some ways to expand their relationship In a way that is still mutually beneficial To both of them?
Speaker 2:and asking all these questions may bring up more questions.
Speaker 1:Yes, it will.
Speaker 2:Don't be afraid of that, but just also recognize that if there are big blocks here, then therapy might be very helpful, whether that's individual therapy and or couples therapy, and we would encourage that. If this is a place where the two of you one or both of you have big blocks Against having a healthy relation, that is preventing you or having a healthy yes.
Speaker 1:Of course, these conversations just kind of end up going in circles, uh-huh. That's where a good therapist can help see where those blocks are in your In you personally and in the relationship and can help you work through those blocks to get to a place where your Conversation can progress and therefore your growth and your relationship can progress right.
Speaker 2:All right, I think we answered her question. Let us know if you have more thoughts about it, but for now, matt, give us our wrap up.
Speaker 1:Struggles with sex in a marriage must not be ignored. Intervention and difficult conversations can save literally years of suffering and shame and even save the marriage itself. The fundamental criteria for a wife to want more sex or to want different sex is that the wife must have the expectation of sex worth having. And finally, the conflict of sexual frequency and or sexual variety Requires an ongoing conversation and a commitment from each to have as much Connecting sex as necessary to promote oneness in the relationship.
Speaker 2:Now it's time to grab yours Vals in your Bible and head to your kitchen table to have the conversation about Co-creating your sexual relationship. What are you going to do to have sex that is worth having?
Speaker 1:We'd love to hear your feedback. Certainly there is something that we left undone with this episode and we would love to hear what you think about it and how we could express and how we could cover this topic Maybe more thoroughly. Contact us by emailing the podcast at podcast at intimate covenant comm, or go to the website intimate covenant comm slash podcast and you will find a form to submit an anonymous feedback submission. Thanks again to Derek and open door financial advisors for sponsoring the podcast. Contact open door at Opendoorfacom where finances meet faith and family.
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Speaker 1:Love it until next time. Keep striving and don't settle.