In this episode, Matt & Jenn answer a listener's question about shifting roles roles in the pursuer/responder dynamic. But first, a few important announcements:
Please support these companies that support Intimate Covenant:
To send your comments, questions and suggestions, go to our website: www.intimatecovenant.com/podcast and click on the button: “Contact the Podcast” for an ANONYMOUS submission form. Or, send an email: podcast@intimatecovenant.com
Thanks for sharing, rating, reviewing and subscribing!
Cherishing,
Matt & Jenn
PS — If you have been blessed by the message of this podcast, we would deeply appreciate your support by donating to our mission of spreading God’s plan for intimate marriage and holy sexuality.
Join us at Patreon: www.patreon.com/intimatecovenant
Consider a one-time gift: www.intimatecovenant.com/donate
www.intimatecovenant.com
Intimate Covenant | Matt & Jenn Schmidt
In this episode, Matt & Jenn answer a listener's question about shifting roles roles in the pursuer/responder dynamic. But first, a few important announcements:
Please support these companies that support Intimate Covenant:
To send your comments, questions and suggestions, go to our website: www.intimatecovenant.com/podcast and click on the button: “Contact the Podcast” for an ANONYMOUS submission form. Or, send an email: podcast@intimatecovenant.com
Thanks for sharing, rating, reviewing and subscribing!
Cherishing,
Matt & Jenn
PS — If you have been blessed by the message of this podcast, we would deeply appreciate your support by donating to our mission of spreading God’s plan for intimate marriage and holy sexuality.
Join us at Patreon: www.patreon.com/intimatecovenant
Consider a one-time gift: www.intimatecovenant.com/donate
www.intimatecovenant.com
Intimate Covenant | Matt & Jenn Schmidt
Hey, Jen, wanna talk about the perfect Valentine's Day gift.
Speaker 2:We are not doing another sex toys episode.
Speaker 1:Great. Actually, today we're going to discuss the theme of the 2024 annual marriage retreat. Registration opens on Valentine's Day and we want to answer a listener's question related to our theme this year Desire, let's do it. Welcome to the Intimate Covenant podcast, where we believe the Bible and Great Married sex both belong on your kitchen table. That's right. We're talking about holy, covenant-bound intimate relationships with hot sex.
Speaker 2:We're Matt and Jen, founders of Intimate Covenant. We offer biblical teaching and resources to help married couples achieve a fuller relationship and an extraordinary sex life. For more information, visit our website, IntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1:Welcome, friends.
Speaker 2:Welcome. Thanks for joining us so glad to have you.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Intimate Covenant podcast and we have a few important and fun announcements to make.
Speaker 2:That's right. We're going to start with our official name for the Daily Check-In on episode 154. We went through what our Daily Check-In is. You guys that are regular listeners have heard us talk about this before and you heard us say we think the name Daily Check-In is quite boring.
Speaker 1:And it is boring, and so that's why we asked you, our creative audience, to come up with a better name for us, and we had-. And you did, you did. We had lots of great suggestions and we had lots of you voting on social media and email and we have narrowed it down to one final winner.
Speaker 2:That's right, you all picked the name for the Daily Check-In will now be Covenant Conversations.
Speaker 1:Covenant Conversations, so we love that name. That's how we're going to refer to it from now on and probably be releasing some resources to go along with that, now that we have a nice new, official, cool, sexy name for the Daily Check-In Covenant Conversations, and we're so happy that this name was submitted by our contest winner, who is our good friend Lamar Schrey.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Lamar. Thank you, Lamar. We think it's a perfect name and we hope all of you guys agree. And again, thanks for sending the submission, thanks for playing along, thanks for voting. That was fun.
Speaker 1:So we're going to send some cool merch to Lamar for her submission and, yeah, we appreciate it. And again, thank you to all of you for participating in that or sending in your votes, and we just really appreciate it. Covenant Conversations I like it.
Speaker 2:I like it. We also want to share some coming marriage days that we're going to be doing. Coming up very soon, we're going to be heading to Austin, Texas, just down the road, for a marriage day there Last weekend in February. This event actually is a private event.
Speaker 1:It is.
Speaker 2:We're completely sponsored by a private individual, but if you're in the Austin area and you really want to come, contact us for more information and we will make sure that you get the detail of that.
Speaker 1:We'll see if some seats are available. So the other place we're going shortly after Austin is to Tampa.
Speaker 2:Yes, we're heading back out to Tampa again. That'll be on Saturday, march 2nd, from 9 to 4. So if you're in the Tampa area, we would love to have you join us again. We'll be presenting all new information.
Speaker 1:New material stuff we haven't presented in Tampa before that event again March 2nd. We would sure love to see their registration for that event just opened, and you can find out more about that at IntimateCovenantcom slash Tampa, fittingly enough.
Speaker 2:Well, matt, this episode is dropping on February 12th, two days before Valentine's Day, and in the Intimate Covenant world, valentine's Day is a big deal, because Valentine's Day equals registration opening for our annual marriage retreat, that's right.
Speaker 1:Registration opens February 14th. That is Valentine's Day. Hopefully everybody is familiar with that and if you're a Patreon subscriber, you already know this because you've already been informed that you have access to early registration. So we're happy for our Patreon members to take advantage of that. If you're a Patreon member, you have a guaranteed spot.
Speaker 2:If you want to come, we will make sure that you get to come Love our Patreon members and the monthly support that they provide for the Intimate Covenant podcast and Intimate Covenant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everything that we could do, everything.
Speaker 2:Intimate Covenant. So that's our way of thanking Patreon subscribers. We do expect this retreat to sell out again, and so we just love giving the perk to Patreon subscribers of registering early, yeah make sure you get in.
Speaker 1:So we do also want to announce at this time our theme. We have decided on a theme for the retreat, and that theme is desire, yes, desire. So, as we're wording it, we want to ignite the emotional and physical passion in your marriage, and that will be the purpose and the theme for the retreat this year. Our plan is to really confront the challenges to maintaining closeness in marriage, and then we want to try to offer some biblical principles and along with our own personal experience, so that couples can help overcome those obstacles that so commonly get in the way of maintaining and igniting intimacy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the title of this year's theme desire.
Speaker 1:I loved the way you say that.
Speaker 2:Oh, did you? Did you appreciate that? Well, it might make some of you wonder if our material is just going to be solely focused on sex. We recognize that for some of you, you might be thinking well, that would be amazing. The other of you are thinking I am not coming just for that reason we get it. So we just wanted to assure. I mean, last year's theme was covenant stories, right, and that felt like a nice safe title.
Speaker 1:Kind of tame.
Speaker 2:Kind of tame, but we wanted to. When we landed on the name desire, we love it because we really think it's gonna capture what all we're gonna do with the retreat. But we recognize that might scare some people away, and so we want to assure you that we, while we are going to be discussing how we can increase our desire for physical intimacy, that will not be the only thing that we're talking about. We will take part in discussions that deal with all realms of intimacy, not just talking about sex.
Speaker 2:We plan to explore how we can increase desire for intimacy in all areas of our marriage.
Speaker 1:Right, absolutely. So. While we're talking about physical intimacy, certainly and that's really where the podcast is kind of landed in terms of what we tend to focus on with the marriage relationship, that's not what our live events are typically about.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Nobody, not even us, want to sit and talk about sex for six straight hours a day. So, and more importantly, that's really not the point anyway, even with our podcast, as we're gonna talk about even today, where we kind of come at this through the lens of sexual intimacy, but we're really trying to talk about the entire relationship and that's what we're gonna talk about. So, most importantly, what we hope to spur in the process of the fullness of that weekend is to start the conversations that are needed between you and your spouse so that you guys can build and co-create this intimacy in all of the areas of your marriage. Right, Not just sexual intimacy, but all the realms of your marriage.
Speaker 2:Right and within that, we're gonna dig in deeper to this idea of a pursuer responder dynamic, and that's something our regular listeners are quite familiar with. We've used that language for a while now. But I think what we would like to focus on is how we can better define our individual roles and how I, as an individual, contribute to this dynamic in my relationship and how I can maximize the part that I play in creating oneness, whether I'm a pursuer or a responder.
Speaker 1:Right, and again, that's kind of something we hit on kind of every time we have an event. But as you and I kind of considered what we wanted to really cover this time, we really thought we really wanted to make that a more important focus and really dig into some of the nuances of this whole pursuer responder dynamic. So we have some fresh ideas, we have some new directions that we kind of want to take this, and so we're really excited to flesh that out over the next few months, while we're put together.
Speaker 2:I think for us, one reason that we're so drawn to this pursuer responder language is because that was a huge paradigm shift within our marriage when we were able to take our relationship and put it within that lens. It really helped us better understand our roles and, frankly, every time that we talk about the pursuer responder, we get a lot of feedback from it, because we know it resonates with you all as well.
Speaker 2:So we really thought well, let's take that and turn it into an entire retreat. But don't worry, if you've listened to us for a long time, if you've been around from the very beginning, like you were just saying, I think we've got some new, fresh approach to it. So, even if you've heard everything we've ever said about pursuer responder, our prayer is that you will be able to walk away from the retreat having learned something more.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and that's a little bit about what this episode is about is kind of digging into some of the nuance, so maybe you'll get a little foretaste. Maybe that's the point of this episode there you go.
Speaker 2:It's like a foreplay episode for the retreat Matt.
Speaker 1:Wow, I see what you did there. Are you impressed? See what you did there.
Speaker 2:So we're going to offer practical and realistic advice for reigniting passionate romance in all realms of your relationship, and that means spiritually, mentally, emotionally and sexually, because-.
Speaker 1:Yes, even your spiritual relationship should be passionate and romantic.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And maybe that's part of what we'll explore when we get to the retreat time.
Speaker 2:So we'll have some fresh ideas and new directions that we want to take it, and our goal every year is to present something that will be relevant and challenging for everyone that attends. Whether you've come to every single retreat we've ever put, out there. This will be our seventh-.
Speaker 1:Seventh annual. Matt. Seventh annual.
Speaker 2:I knew we would keep going this long. Or if maybe you've never come to any of them, whether you've listened to all of our podcast episodes or this is your very first one, whether you've been married a month, a year, a decade, lots of decades. Whatever it is, we endeavor to put together a retreat that is relevant to all.
Speaker 1:And refreshing, and refreshing. So if all that sounds exciting to you, get online. You can find more information about the retreat and you can register at intimatecovenantcom. Slash retreat.
Speaker 2:All right. So, in light of our opening of registration for the annual retreat, like you said just a minute ago, we wanted to cover a topic that's related to the general theme that we'll be covering at the retreat. So we received this email from a listener, from a wife, and I'm gonna read it and then we'll kind of dive into it a little bit. Can't wait. She says hello, I've listened to all your episodes.
Speaker 1:Whoa.
Speaker 2:Yay.
Speaker 1:Have you listened to all of our episodes? I may.
Speaker 2:She goes on to say thank you for all that you do. You've helped my marriage and myself in many ways. However, lately I seem to be having more and more questions about the pursuer-responder relationship for sexual and emotional intimacy. Let's start first with my confusion over the sexual pursuer-responder dynamic. I can really see how helpful it is, but what I cannot see is how my love and I fit into these roles consistently.
Speaker 2:For us, these roles seem to change from week to week or even day to day, for a variety of reasons. Number one the natural monthly changes in my hormones, since my body hasn't gotten the memo that we're not having any more kids. I love how she praises that. And number two, changes in stress levels to do with life, kids, work, family, the usual. And then, number three, sometimes just diet and exercise changes. Her question is is it normal that we flip-flop these roles so often? Well, I guess it doesn't matter because it's normal for us. So I would love some clarity and guidance on how to better navigate these ever-changing roles so we can grow in our sexual intimacy, like who initiates if we both are pursuing so many great questions? I love how she lays out her email and she herself lists some of the reasons she thinks that things might change their pursuer responder dynamic.
Speaker 1:Clearly she's thought about this.
Speaker 2:She has. I love how she just flat-out says well, it doesn't matter if it's normal for everybody else.
Speaker 1:It's normal for us.
Speaker 2:So the basis of her email is okay. If this is our normal, what do we do about it?
Speaker 1:Right, right. So she's listening to every single episode. Let me just say, if you, as a listener, have listened to every single episode, we want to hear from you. Send us an email and we're going to send you something special. Send us an email at feedback at intimate covenant dot com, or a podcast at intimate covenant dot com.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we love hearing from you guys in that way. So, thank you for listening.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening, for sure, and so, because you've listened every episode, we owe you a response to your questions, and so we're happy to do so.
Speaker 2:That's right. So she is familiar with the pursuer responder dynamic and she's asking us to dig into some of the nuances of it. But, matt, maybe somebody's listening. Who's thinking? What are you guys talking about?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think it's worth reviewing at least, or maybe laying out just the basic concepts of what are we even talking about with this pursuer responder thing? And so the simple way to explain this is that in every aspect of your marriage there is a pursuer and a responder. Okay, so specifically, we usually talk about this in with respect to there being a sexual pursuer and responder and an emotional pursuer and responder, and you may be the pursuer in one aspect of your relationship and the responder in another aspect of your relationship, but in every realm of intimacy and every realm of your relationship there is a pursuer and a responder. So, briefly defining, then the pursuer is the one who assumes the role of initiating that's type of connection. So if I'm the sexual pursuer, I am the one who most commonly or most often is the one who's going to initiate sexual connection, and that's because sexual connection to the sexual pursuer is something that is highly valued.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, they put a lot of value on that realm of intimacy, and so they, by nature, then, are the one who is seeking connection first and foremost.
Speaker 1:So they're typically the one who is going to initiate that type of intimacy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So then the responder is the one who is burdened to either accept or reject those bids for connection. Often that, their way of connecting is not necessarily through that realm of intimacy, and so it is upon them whether to respond positively or negatively to the pursuer, as they're initiating.
Speaker 1:Sure, and to be clear, it's not always a black and white issue, and that's kind of what we're going to flesh out as we kind of answer this question a little bit more, and it's something that often will can change in the course of the relationship. Again, as this listener is pointing out, and as we're going to flesh out as we kind of endeavor through this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm excited to go through this one because I think you know, like we said at the beginning, like the pursuer responder, just that mindset, understanding that dynamic was super helpful for us as we better understood our roles. And because we think it, we know from hearing from all of you all that it's helpful for you too. We revert back to that, we use that a lot, but we don't often get the chance to really dig into the nuances.
Speaker 1:There are always nuances.
Speaker 2:It's not as black and white as sometimes. I think we have presented it for most for every couple, I should say that way. So there, there is definitely different ways this plays out in different marriages. So her question of are we normal? Well, yes, it actually is normal for the pursuer and responder roles to change.
Speaker 1:Sure, and sometimes that change happens over a long period of time and sometimes, as this listener is pointing out, it's something that changes with some frequency and the reason for the change is the shift of importance in each realm of connection for each individual. So it may be due to your individual shift in focus, in other words, for whatever reasons, for, for example, if she's using the example of sexual intimacy, so we'll go with that realm, but this happens in every other realm of intimacy. But, for example, in her case, because of changing circumstances, her shift in focus waxes and wanes in terms of her sexual desire, and so or it could be that your spouse is also changing in their level of desire or interest or focus on that same particular realm of intimacy. So if your focus is going up or your partner's focus is going down, then that's potentially going to flip-flop the difference in your desire, the discrepancy in your desires.
Speaker 2:Right. So there might be times where you feel like you are more taking on that pursuer role and other times you feel much more of a responder in that realm of intimacy. I think if the roles don't entirely reverse in your relationship, then it's almost inevitable that the gap in your levels of desire will change significantly one way or another. Yeah sure.
Speaker 1:I mean the difference in your desires for whatever that realm of intimacy is going to be, if they're not reversing, in other words, if you're not reversing roles entirely, there are going to be times in your relationship where you're going to be assuming, sometimes more of a pursuer role, or less of a pursuer role, or more of a responder role, less of a responder role. So it's going to change, even if it never flips.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You are at least going to have sometimes where you're going to be displaying more of those behaviors, or not.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean human nature is where there are going to be times when we are seeking a stronger connection than others, whether that's in a pursuing kind of way or a responding kind of way. So let's go through some reasons why your roles may change. You know what would cause someone to go from feeling like I'm a pursuer to now, maybe, I'm a responder.
Speaker 1:Well, I think I mean in this listener with her question answers this to some extent. I mean she talks about things like hormones.
Speaker 2:She gets like one, two and three. I'm a conical.
Speaker 1:Hormones, stress and you know hormones in particular. That can be a plus or a minus depending on which hormones we're talking about. But hormones are going to change just naturally with age, with health problems or even just normal health. With a woman's normal cycle that's going to change her hormones and her sexual desire levels. For some women that's a very dramatic change from week to week. Others it's less impactful.
Speaker 2:But that definitely can change your desire for sexual connection. It can become more or less based on where your hormone levels are.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and there are certainly medications that you may be taking or have been prescribed that will also impact your hormones and or impact your libido in other ways. So, yeah, there's lots of things that can change your sexual desire and your desire for sexual connection to make that increased or decreased, and including health issues, I mean lots of things that can change that. Of course, the biggest probably libido influencer for most people, especially for women, is stress and the stress, the way that you are processing stress in your life. She talks about quote kids, work, family, the usual yeah, I mean that's life, right?
Speaker 1:Life brings us stress, and the way that we are processing that, the way that we're able to handle it and how much of it is we're dealing with at a time will certainly affect our sexual desire.
Speaker 2:Well, and the age. I mean, if you are a family, a wife, mom especially that have little children, that will greatly influence your sexual desire compared to when your children get older, because, frankly, they just require so much more physical demand, which influences everything, and so definitely those are different ways that can, and that's obviously not an exhaustive list, but different things can cause you to desire sexual connection more or less, and the same is true for emotional connection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we don't think about this as much when we talk about this desire gap between a pursuer and a responder. But emotional connection can wax and wane. Your desire for emotional connection can wax and wane, and one reason for that I mean kids are the problem for every aspect of marriage. So why wouldn't they affect your emotional connection? But if you're getting emotional fulfillment simply from raising kids and being around kids all the time, then it would certainly. That certainly can take its toll on your marriage If the emotional fulfillment you're getting from your kids becomes a substitute or the connection that you should be seeking with your spouse.
Speaker 2:Right and the kids aren't the only way that you can substitute that. I mean you could be substituting your need for or desire for emotional connection with your spouse, with friends. You know, if you have allowed your friendships to have stronger priority in your life than your relationship with your spouse, you're gonna fill naturally then a sense of fulfillment from those relationships that will affect the kind of connection you're looking for from your spouse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So you know again the other. I guess the other side of this is sometimes you may lose a little bit of that desire for initiating emotional connection, because the emotional connection that you're getting is perhaps healthier or more satisfying.
Speaker 2:That's a good point, like it may be that you know at one point of your relationship you were really seeking and maybe seeking in an unhealthy way a connection, maybe because you felt a sense of scarcity. Maybe you felt a sense of you know I have to grab on to all that I can get. If your relationship has gotten healthier, it's actually gonna end up feeling like I'm not seeking that as much because you're naturally you're just at that point. You're more filled by your connection and so there may be less dependency on your spouse that you were trying to use to soothe anxiety.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, a mental health professional would call that moving from a situation of codependency to more of a secure attachment style, but we're not gonna get too geeked out on that kind of language Now. That said, your roles may change. Your levels of desire for these kinds of connections may change, and there are some reasons why those roles will change, like we've talked about. But I think something to really, I guess, first emphasize is most of the time, this is not really a problem, and I guess I want to make sure this listener understands it. It's not necessarily a problem that your roles are changing from time to time, or even frequently, and this is especially true in a couple that is relatively closely matched in terms of their relative desire for whatever this particular type of intimacy might be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we tend to kind of think of this as, like you know, a pursuer and responder are far apart and almost opposite one another.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's-.
Speaker 2:And it can certainly be that. But there can also be relationships in which both partners have almost a similar or same amount of pursuit of desire, in both responsive and pursuing desire.
Speaker 1:Yeah, opposites attract, yes, but it doesn't mean you have to be opposite in every single realm of your life. And so it is perfectly feasible and reasonable to recognize that there are some couples. When they get together, at least at some point in their life, their sexual desire may be close to equal, or their emotional desire may be close to equal, and if that's the case, it doesn't take much of a change in either individual for those roles to sometimes reverse themselves, as one person is gaining or losing more or less interest in that particular type of intimacy.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean most couples. The gap between pursuer and responder roles is significant enough that one spouse tends to just assume that sexual responder role and the other will assume the sexual pursuer role for the vast majority of their lives together, maybe all of their life together, right.
Speaker 2:Right, and that might be the same. It's true, can be true for emotional relationship. But while this stereotype is the norm, maybe it's certainly not unusual for a couple to be just closely matched in their desire for sexual or emotional intimacy, and so that may be the case for this listener, and maybe it's just a matter of saying, okay, and I think she was kind of getting there right Like, are we normal? Well, it doesn't matter, because it's normal for us.
Speaker 1:Sure, and how do?
Speaker 2:we do this the best.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if it's working for them and I think that's maybe where we're getting to if it's working for them, then there may not be anything that requires repair. So I guess what I'm getting at is labeling yourself or labeling your spouse necessarily as a pursuer or a responder In my mind is far less important than just noticing or acknowledging whether or not there is healthy, frequent pursuit and response in the relationship as a whole.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean as long as, as a couple, someone is making bids for connection and the other is responding to those bids for connection, then it really makes no difference who was doing which or how often.
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 2:So we don't ever want these names, the titles, if you will, of pursuer and responder, to get in the way.
Speaker 1:Right. I mean we use the pursuer and responder labels to kind of help identify that there are two sides to every connection and somebody has to be playing the role of the initiator and someone has to be playing the role of the responder. But to me it's not that important who's doing what, as long as it's happening. So if you're an emotional pursuer one day and you're an emotional responder on another day, no problem, Just keep making those bids and just keep listening for those bids and playing your role in the dynamic as it's happening. Just recognize the importance that there are both sides of the equation and both sides have to be working for there to be healthy, positive interaction and building of intimacy.
Speaker 2:Right. And another reason that roles may change is that one or both of you begin to appreciate and even leverage the fact that all realms of intimacy in your marriage are connected. Yes, and this has very much been the story of our marriage.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I mean, for example, the more that our relationship has matured, I have learned that, even though my nature makes me an emotional responder, that's just kind of naturally who I am and how I'm built as an emotional responder. I am now, though, much more willing and much more eager to initiate emotional connections Right, and I think that's probably for a couple of reasons. One I've come to appreciate and enjoy emotional connection. I love it more, and I appreciate the value of the closeness that is built from intimate conversations and being vulnerable, and so I've become more comfortable with emotional vulnerability. So, therefore, I'm less likely to withdraw, and in fact, I'm even more likely to sometimes initiate a deep conversation on my own. Now, that probably has to do with a couple of reasons, at least a couple.
Speaker 1:One reason I can think of, though, is that one reason I'm more comfortable with that part of the relationship is because I have grown to trust the security of our relationship, so the outcome of those conversations is less in doubt, so I'm more comfortable, so I'm able to put myself out there and be more vulnerable, and I've also done some personal work in trying to grow and expand my own emotional capacity, so I've taken on some responsibility myself to grow myself in that realm of relationships in general and specifically in my marriage. And then, secondly, I've also learned that, even though I'm a sexual pursuer, it's the deep emotional connection that makes sex better. So I've recognized that a genuine investment and a sincere pursuit in the emotional relationship is actually an investment also in the sexual relationship, because they're inseparable. So, as I've learned that if I, if I put myself out there emotionally, it benefits me sexually, and so if I'm a sexual pursuer, that's a win-win for me.
Speaker 2:Right, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:I'm just sitting here listening to you say all that and thinking how far we've come. Oh man Because this is certainly not where we were 20 years ago.
Speaker 1:And that's why we're sharing, because we hope that this Exactly we are walking this journey, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:So, and you know, I, as a sexual responder, and most sexual responders in a healthy marriage, will also have this same arc of growth with respect to their sexual relationship. And so for me, as a sexual responder, when I learned to trust our relationship and I began truly valuing the benefit of a thriving sexual relationship for both of us, right, I gained a just a greater and deeper appreciation for our sex life as a whole, which also played into me having a stronger sexual desire.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And while I will never likely become the primary sexual pursuer in our marriage, I've grown more comfortable in sharing some of that pursuer role, just from the standpoint of learning to even initiate sexual connection myself, right Because I see the beauty of the role that our sexual, our physical intimacy plays in our whole relationship.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And, just like you're saying, you recognize how much deeper a sexual relationship is when there's an emotional connection. Vice versa, if I want to have a deep and real emotional connection with you, I know that a sexual connection plays a huge part of that, just like spiritual connection plays a big part of that. Right, it's just this learning that all of it works together. And when you learn to appreciate that, when both of you start learning to appreciate that, it takes the pressure off. And so what may seem like I'm not pursuing as strongly, I'm not having to respond as strongly, it might just be that there's less pressure from one or both of you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Well. So that's our vulnerable bit in the episode, so you'll never know how this all happens with the details. But we do think it's important to give you a little bit of glimpse, kind of how this at least works in a general sense, because I think you'll find that same kind of growth in your own relationship, or at least we want that to be something that you can pursue in your relationship.
Speaker 2:Right. So it's not always an important sign if your roles are changing. It's not necessarily a marker of anything problematic in your relationship. It may just represent natural or harmless variations or cycles. But, sometimes it is an important indicator.
Speaker 1:There are some reasons to at least be aware that it could be something problematic in your relationship if these roles are changing. And, most importantly, I think it's a problem if it means that one of you is just simply withdrawing your investment from the relationship. If one of you was a pursuer and suddenly you're not, and that's because you've withdrawn your pursuit, because you just don't care anymore, or you just stop responding because you just are checking out or just getting lazy, perhaps then the other of you is going to be left to take on that role of pursuit in all the realms of intimacy and, generally speaking, if that becomes the case, that can be a really important sign that something is unhealthy in your relationship.
Speaker 2:Right and that one spouse stops pursuing because of constant rejection. It's no longer worth it to them to be vulnerable in their pursuit because it just hurts too much and ultimately what that might lead to is them finding fulfillment elsewhere, and I mean emotionally or sexually. If you're constantly shut down and criticized and told you know you're too much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're too much by your spouse, then at some point most people will stop trying, and so that may be that you know that pursuer is just feeling a sense of constant rejection, and it could be that sometimes a spouse stops responding because they feel like they can never do it good enough. There's just a sense of failure I give and then my pursuer asks for more like that. It's whatever.
Speaker 1:They're never satisfied. They're never content.
Speaker 2:Yes, Right and ultimately that might be driving a responder to look for fulfillment elsewhere, themselves, emotionally and sexually. And so you do have to pay close attention to what might be feeding into this dynamic.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and there are lots of scenarios and we would never try to name them all where a role change could signal a serious problem in the relationship, but they all boil down, I think, to one important factor and that is that one spouse, in these situations where it's where it could indicate something dangerous to the relationship, it's when one spouse or both spouses stop responding, when there is pursuit without response, on whatever side of that you might be on, if there's pursuit without response, that is a big, huge red flag with strobe lights and fireworks. That is a huge red flag.
Speaker 2:It's time to get some help.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think, summing it all up, it's less important who fulfills each role in the pursuer responder dynamic, as long as there is frequent and healthy pursuit and response. So what that means for all of us is that we each have a responsibility to initiate bids for connection and be eager to respond when our spouse is reaching out. Keep reaching out.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And keep listening and paying attention to our spouse, as they're reaching out to us as well. Precisely Well said All right, Matt, give us our wrap up.
Speaker 1:First of all, plan to join us for the seventh annual marriage retreat in Houston Texas. It is September 19th through the 21st. Registration opens on Valentine's Day. Happy Valentine's Day everybody. Secondly, a shift in the roles of pursuers and responders is common in all relationships. Sometimes these role changes signal something detrimental to the relationship. Often they simply represent typical patterns of growth or seasonal shifts in the relationship. In a healthy marriage, labeling who is the pursuer and who is the responder is far less important than making sure that there is frequent and healthy pursuit and response in all realms of your intimacy.
Speaker 2:Now it's time to grab your spouse in your Bible and head to your kitchen table to have the conversation about how the roles of pursuing and responding have played out in your marriage. Which role do you most often see yourself in? Most importantly, do you make connection in all realms of intimacy a priority and if not, what needs to change?
Speaker 1:We want to hear your feedback. Certainly want to hear your feedback on this episode. We would love to hear your questions, your concerns. What did we leave out? What did we forget? Contribute to the conversation by emailing us podcast at intimate covenant dot com, or submit an anonymous feedback form or questions by going to our website intimate covenant dot com slash podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing, rating and sharing the podcast. We're truly humbled by all your encouragement and your support. Thanks, especially to our Patreon subscribers for coming alongside us in a very real way. We love you. If the message of intimate covenant has blessed your marriage, we would love to have you join us. Subscribe at patreon dot com. Slash intimate covenant.
Speaker 1:Until next time, keep striving and don't settle.