Thanks for sharing, rating, reviewing and subscribing!
Cherishing, Matt & Jenn
PS — If you have been blessed by the message of this podcast, we would deeply appreciate your support by donating to our mission of spreading God’s plan for intimate marriage and holy sexuality.
Thanks for sharing, rating, reviewing and subscribing!
Cherishing, Matt & Jenn
PS — If you have been blessed by the message of this podcast, we would deeply appreciate your support by donating to our mission of spreading God’s plan for intimate marriage and holy sexuality.
Hey, jen wanna talk about keeping secrets from our spouses. I'll never tell Great. Today we're tackling some questions from our new friends in Austin Texas, including whether or not it's okay to keep a secret from your spouse. Let's do it. Welcome to the Intimate Covenant podcast, where we believe the Bible and Great Married Sex both belong on your kitchen table. That's right. We're talking about holy covenant-bound intimate relationships with hot sex.
Jenn:
We are Madden Jen, founders of Intimate Covenant. We offer biblical teaching and resources to help married couples achieve a fuller relationship and an extraordinary sex life. For more information, visit our website, IntimateCovenantcom.
Matt:
Welcome, friends.
Jenn:
Welcome. Thanks for joining us on the Intimate Covenant podcast.
Matt:
So glad to have you along with us. That's right, we are just returning from a fabulous trip to Austin, texas.
Jenn:
Yep, we got to spend the weekend there and Austin had a wonderful marriage day on Saturday with our new friends in the. Austin Texas area. That was great. It's right down the road from us, so we enjoyed getting to go there and then getting to come home easily.
Matt:
Yes, no airplanes involved, no TSA security. That's right, not for this trip.
Jenn:
However, we're barely going to unpack the bags because this coming weekend we're heading to Tampa to do a marriage date in Tampa, Florida.
Matt:
Yes, Tampa. If you're in the area, in the general Florida or Tampa area, we would certainly love to see you. There is still room to register for that event. Go to IntimateCovenantcom and we'll get you on the list and get you there and hopefully be able to see you and hug your neck as well.
Jenn:
That's right. It's easy season for us.
Matt:
Yes, it is, but we're super excited about that upcoming event. We're excited and just really energized from the time that we spent in Austin. We love it. Lots of good things happening. We did also want to mention which we just completely slipped my mind and failed to mention this last time. We did an interview not that long ago with another podcast. Yes, we were interviewed by the podcast Upon their Shoulders. That is a podcast with Jake Smith and Nick Weaver.
Jenn:
I love the name of their podcast Upon their.
Matt:
Shoulders, very thoughtful, and these are two very thoughtful young men. We met these two gentlemen when we were in St Louis for a marriage day this past summer, got to know them a little bit and we're just very impressed by these two young men, but also impressed by the fact that they have this great podcast. You really should check it out. These are two young men who are just simply seeking wisdom and counsel from older or maybe we'll just call it more experienced Christians.
Matt:
Matt, we fit that category we are both older and more experienced than these young men. But, that said, very impressed with their podcast, also very impressed with their mission. But their goal with this podcast is just to simply interview more experienced Christians and gain wisdom and pass that on to the masses. So very, very well done. Podcast.
Jenn:
Yeah, we loved it. We had a lovely conversation with Jake and Nick and it was really neat because both of their wives joined them for this interview, which I think they had said that they had never really done that. So who knows, maybe their lovely wives will get to be a part of it, or maybe they don't want to do it again, I'm with you.
Jenn:
No, we got to spend some time also with Katie and Lena, and so it's just perfect. We covered many topics. It really kind of went all over the board, but many topics, including how to prioritize your marriage, especially in the time when you're raising little guys, which those two couples are smack in the middle of that, and how to develop healthy marriage habits and even how to educate your children about sex.
Jenn:
So, really good topics. It was a great interview. One of the neat things they do with their podcast is they actually publish two versions. Interesting. Yes, so it's a neat kind of format so you can check out the extended full interview, which was right at an hour long, a little bit over an hour, yes. But then they also edit it down. So if you need the, what's it called, the condensed version, the Reader's Digest version and no, you're sounding old now. Reader's Digest TLDR.
Matt:
That's it. I knew it started with a T and it was a bunch of letters.
Jenn:
If you want that version, you can check that out as well. So search for upon their shoulders podcast and give them a listen.
Matt:
They've got a lot of neat episodes out there, Highly recommended. The other thing we wanted to remind you about is retreat registration opened up on Valentine's Day and in just two short weeks we are right at half of our maximum capacity.
Jenn:
How crazy is that? So if you are, first of all, if you're a regular and you come to the retreat regularly and you haven't signed up yet, you're about to miss out, You're about to lose your spot to some of our new folks. No, but if this is something you guys you would like to participate in, this fall in September, September 19th through the 21st this year just know you can't think about it for too long.
Matt:
Yeah, we don't want you to miss this. We don't want anybody to miss it really, but we certainly don't want anybody to miss it that really wants to be there yeah.
Jenn:
It requires a $200 deposit to hold your spot, and then the rest is due later in August. So you got plenty of time to save your pennies. If you need to.
Matt:
You have time to pay off but yeah, get your registration in so that we can put you on the list and save your spot. We don't want you to miss it. We'd love for you to be there. Without much further ado, we do want to share with you this week our Q&A session from our fabulous marriage day in Austin.
Jenn:
These couples had some great questions?
Matt:
They sure did, and unfortunately we just don't have time in one episode to share all of the questions that we answered, but you are going to get an excerpt from that. There's I don't know five or six questions that we have narrowed down, including some things about how to prevent our children from growing up with sexual shame. We talked about me time, as it were. Is it okay to schedule some me time in our marriage? How to deal with past relationships, as in if our spouse has a past relationship, including a sexual relationship, how do we manage that? How do we deal with that? We also talked about a spouse who might be not necessarily fully inclined towards sex, how to maybe change that dynamic a little bit. And then, is it a sin to say no to sex? That was another question we spent some time on that we want to share our response with. And then finally, as we alluded to in the opener, is it?
Matt:
okay to keep a secret from my spouse.
Jenn:
Yeah, so great questions, some good questions and we hope that you'll enjoy those answers and we'll see you on the other side All right next question what are some ways we can help prevent our children from feeling shame about sex and marriage, to stop the feeling we were raised with? And then there was another question about kids and I'm going to link these two together. Let me find it.
Matt:
What language or physical gestures are okay in front of children? Is that what you're thinking? So kind of? Two connected questions about children, and here's my short answer is this is not a parenting class. Next question, just kidding. That said, we can't talk entirely about parenting and interestingly enough, we're preparing some material on kind of better how to talk to your kids about sex in a helpful way that doesn't create all of the shameful barriers that many of us grew up with.
Jenn:
So, first, how do we prevent our children from feeling shame about sex and marriage? Well, it first starts with you have to stop feeling shame about your sexuality. So it first starts with you perhaps redefining and better understanding God's purpose for sex within marriage. I mean again, god created sex, god loves sex. He has a beautiful plan for sex within marriage, because it is meant to be a spiritual coming together as much, if not more, than a physical and emotional coming together. So he had a beautiful plan, and so it first starts with reeducating ourselves. But then I think it's also learning how to embrace God's plan and show our children the beauty of God's plan. I mean, satan is talking loudly about sex, isn't he? Why are we allowing that? We should be talking louder to our children. So you have to believe that sex is beautiful in marriage and then you have to start proclaiming that in your homes.
Matt:
I mean, my challenge to you is your kids should know that you have a great sex life Now. They don't need to know the details of when and where and how. Well, they probably know where Sometimes.
Jenn:
The tagline in our podcast is how do I say? My brain just went blank.
Matt:
Where the Bible and great sex both belong in the kitchen table.
Jenn:
To which, when our children learned of that tagline, they were like what, just kidding?
Matt:
Now they won't be in the dining room. But seriously, your kids should know that you have a great sex life.
Jenn:
If that alone makes you uncomfortable, there's your place to start considering. Why do I feel shame at that thought?
Matt:
What better gift can you give to your kids than to demonstrate for them something that is fulfilling and godly and holy and a beautiful gift? What better gift can you pass on to your kids than to show them exactly what they should want? Do you not want for your kids a beautiful, meaningful, connected sexual and marriage relationship? Is that not what you want for your children? Why do we hide it from them? Why do we act like it's shameful? We teach kids that sex is so dirty and so dangerous that you have to save it for the one that you love, and that makes no sense to me. It's beautiful. So how does this happen? This does not happen with one single awkward conversation when they turn 12 or 13 years old.
Jenn:
Do not have the talk with your kids. Instead, as one author put it, you should be having 1,001 minute conversations over the course of your kids life. Now, the beauty of that is, if you mess up one of those 1,000 conversations, it's okay, I'm not going to remember. So yeah, some of us grew up with a lot of silence and a lot of shame, cloaking sex, and so we don't really know what to say Well, you don't have to say it perfectly, just start talking. Yes, no matter how old, your kids are Start talking.
Matt:
Silence is the currency of shame. If you never talk about it, then what should they assume about it? That I shouldn't talk about it either? I should be ashamed of it as well.
Matt:
What teaching your kids about sex starts from the moment that they have language, maybe before teaching them about who they are, what parts do they have, what parts do they not have?
Matt:
Giving them actual, real names, not stupid pet names for pee, pee and potty and hoo, hoo and whatever we say. Give them actual names for what they are and what they have, and that allows them to have language. Then, to have conversations with you, you must be the expert of sex in your household. You must be the resource that your kids come to for answers. Who else do you want talking to them about sex? Who else do you trust to give them holy information about sex? Because if they don't trust you because you haven't given them answers their whole lives, they will find someone else to give them answers their friends at school, the internet, their teachers at school everybody else is more than happy to give them advice on sex and relationships, and the only way they learn to trust you is if you are willing to give them real answers and grapple with the difficult questions within you have to be the expert.
Jenn:
So what language or physical gestures are okay in front of your children? Well it's okay to make your kids a little uncomfortable. I'll tell you that I mean that's why you have them right. They're causing you a lot of pain. You might as well make them squirm occasionally. You need to see enough physical connection between the two of you to know that a physical aspect of your marriage exists and that it is sacred between the two of you.
Matt:
This next question is is it okay for me time in a successful marriage? Maybe we could word it more specifically do extraordinary lovers have me time? I think the answer to that is yes. It is, in fact, vitally important for each of you to be your own person. That way, you can bring something that is even more extraordinary to the relationship.
Matt:
That said it's very easy and quick to justify selfishness as being me time or mental health. Me taking a mental health break sometimes just is an excuse to be selfish. I'm not accusing anybody of anything, I'm just saying that is. Beware. Yeah, sometimes where that goes.
Jenn:
So think about what is my motivation for seeking me time. It is absolutely okay to want something that helps you let go of the stress, detach from stress of everyday life, but be careful that you're not seeking something that keeps you from connecting with your spouse.
Matt:
Is this me time ultimately resulting in better connection with my spouse or worse? If I'm going hunting every weekend for three straight months or if I'm playing golf every time I have time off, is that really benefiting my relationship? Maybe, if your spouse is a terrible person and you can't stay and be around them, maybe that's good for you to be along, but I don't think that's the situation for any of you.
Jenn:
We encourage you to find ways that we can connect together, even in things that I'm not so interested in but my spouse is interested in. For instance, nat loves the birds and the bees.
Jenn:
You're not surprised, but I feel like actual literal birds and bees we have a beehive in our backyard, and we have a thousand bird feeders, because this is something that's interested in Left. To my own devices, I would not necessarily care about these things. I have learned, though, to be interested in what he is interested in, and vice versa, and so I think that's an important thing to look for ways that you can connect together, even when it's something that you're not inclined to necessarily pursue yourself.
Matt:
Yeah, but is it okay to do something on your own? I mean, one of the best things for a young mom with 100 kids is to give her a break for an hour or a day or a weekend, but if it's something that is required every day or every weekend or every month and you're not willing to be a content and happy spouse without it, maybe it's bordering on something that is more selfish.
Jenn:
How does it deal with past relationships interfering with current one, as in constantly comparing oneself to another?
Matt:
Virtually all of us bring baggage into our marriage, some of us more than others, and I don't mean just sexual baggage, although that obviously is a really important factor. All of us bring baggage into our relationships and sometimes that baggage is the emotional and spiritual and sexual experiences that we have with someone who is not our spouse. Now I would even suggest that there is baggage that you bring into your relationship even from how you may have mishandled your relationship prior to when you were married to the same person. But specifically in this question, it went away Specifically with this question how do you deal with your spouse's past emotional and sexual history with someone that is not you? That's a reality that is often a reality in our relationships.
Matt:
I think the I don't want to call it a secret, but a really important way to help deal with that is to co-create something that is unique to you, co-create something that is far better than what your spouse could have ever had with someone else. That takes time, that takes effort, that takes making and building multiple experiences together, but ultimately that is something that is going to outlast and outshine and outlive anything your spouse could have had before and focus in on and concentrate on the fact that, ultimately, your spouse is here with you in this moment, and don't let their past overshadow what you have the opportunity to create today. Now, if you or your spouse have a sexual past, that is always going to be a shadow in your current relationship, but it doesn't have to be something that lingers and is this overwhelming presence?
Jenn:
You can redeem that.
Matt:
Again, yes, and that's the perfect use of that word you can buy it back. You can redeem it for something that is far more valuable, far more precious, far more impactful in what you have today. But you've got to be willing to, and sometimes it's about having a conversation. Having that conversation is so difficult Because sometimes it even feels a little bit like a betrayal and in some sense it is. But getting past that is going to require acknowledgement of what is there and what it means to both of you, and then establishing ways that you're going to build something that's bigger and better than what you might have had before. Co-create something that outshines you. If I am disinclined towards sex and my spouse feels guilty for initiating, or vice versa, what can we do to improve our time spent on sexual intimacy?
Jenn:
This question hits home because I could have been the one asking this question ten years ago in our marriage. Ten years ago, I could have taken or leavened sex. Sure, the occasional date night, the occasional weekend was great, but in general, on a Tuesday night, where was my sexual desire? Long gone. I wasn't interested and I thought well right, marriage is where sex goes to die. I mean, what do I do? I will tell you that I had to learn that the truth of the answer was it's had to start with me. It had to start with me saying why am I disinclined towards sex? And yeah, hormones could play a part in that. Little kids are playing a part in that.
Matt:
There's a lot of stress exhaustion, yeah, all of those things that play a part in that.
Jenn:
But ultimately the real answer lay within me. First it wasn't what he could do to make my sexual desire and arousal all of a sudden relight. It had to first start with me leaning into why don't I want sex anymore? And challenging whether or not that was okay. I had settled that sex wasn't really all that important and somehow that I had convinced myself that that was okay. But then I had to learn I saw the results of that in my marriage that we weren't where I would want us to be.
Matt:
And sometimes you become disinclined towards sex because the sex that you're having is just not worth having. Like, if I'm getting nothing out of it, if I'm getting no connection, if I'm just a body, if I'm just perceived that way or that's sometimes that's how I am perceiving myself is just a body, then of course I'm disinclined because it's not worth having.
Matt:
Why would I want? Why? How can I learn to desire something that's terrible? I mean, that's a hard ask. So sometimes that means you've got to speak up and have a voice in what you're co-creating and recognize that the sex that you're having is not worth having because you don't feel connected or you're not having or you're not getting pleasure.
Jenn:
It has nothing to do with what's happening in the bedroom and everything to do with what's not happening outside of the bedroom. Yes, maybe you're disinclined towards sex because you have no emotional connection to one another anymore, and so I know. The question is what can we do to improve our time spent on sexual intimacy? But first it starts with what can you do to change? Don't settle for being disinclined towards sex. Don't stay there, don't settle.
Matt:
But if you're willing to view the purpose of sex as connection, then there's an opportunity for everybody to get what they need every time, no matter how it all plays out in the specifics, or even what happens or doesn't happen. There's always an opportunity for connection if you're both looking for it.
Jenn:
So maybe my body won't respond to this in a way that I would love for my body to respond. Okay, that might be true, but that doesn't mean that I can't feel connected to my beloved. One day, your bodies will wear out, but you can still have connected sex if you both see the true purpose and value of sex.
Matt:
I think one of the most important pieces of advice for someone who is struggling to desire sex is to find one thing about a sexual encounter that you can look forward to. What is one thing and sometimes it's just what is one place where I can feel connected. What is one smell? I just look forward to smelling my spouse's hair, or I just look forward to feeling them against my skin, or I just look forward to.
Jenn:
I like the way their eyes look.
Matt:
I love.
Jenn:
Yes, I like the way this feels. Find I like the way the voice sounds, find one thing that you like and then learn to think on and dwell on and anticipate that I can't wait for this one thing, whatever it is. Now I say a lot of us who have had periods of feeling disinclined towards sex is because we put are putting zero effort into being inclined towards sex. So what changed things for me is I started yes, I relearned what sex was really all about, but I also started forcing myself and being intentional about thinking about sex.
Jenn:
My brain didn't immediately just think about sex, and so I had to do the work of first starting the conversation in my own head, forcing myself to name what is something that I like about this, forcing myself to picture what would a great experience with one another look like, and then letting my mind start the work of inclining my body towards it, because a woman's greatest and biggest sex organ is her brain, and if you've not engaged your brain, the rest of your body isn't very likely to follow. So do you want to speak real quickly to the spouse that might feel guilty for initiating?
Matt:
So if you are a sexual pursuer and your spouse is either intentionally or unintentionally not catching your bids and you are feeling rejected, or you're just a nice guy who recognizes that there is a lot on your spouse's plate raising kids or being pregnant, or there's hundreds of reasons why your spouse may be disinclined Then you know it. You know when your spouse is just not into it. Trust me Spouses that are not into it, your spouse knows when they're not into it.
Matt:
Just like you know when they're not paying attention to what you're saying, just like you know they're not hearing the questions that you're asking. You know that they aren't paying attention to you when you ask them to take out the trash. You know when your spouse isn't into it, whatever it is. Whatever it is, when you know your spouse is not into it, does that make you motivated to ask again? No, it doesn't. Even when they say yes, but they're not into it, you're going to feel bad about asking again. So my advice is stop accepting mercy sex. By mercy sex I mean the kind of sex where one or both of you is just not into it. Stop accepting it and confront it. Say, hey, I noticed you're not really into it.
Matt:
Maybe sometimes in the moment, like hey, I know you're not into it, I get it. Maybe this day is not the right time. Maybe you said yes because you feel sorry for me, but that's not the kind of connection that I'm looking for. Let's find another way to connect, either in this moment or next time or whatever it is. Let's find another way to connect. Maybe that's emotionally, maybe that's praying together, maybe that's cuddling, maybe that's another kind of physical intimacy, maybe that's something else, maybe it's this kind of sex that just doesn't require as much physical effort for her or him. Maybe it's finding other ways to connect. But don't stop initiating connection. But you've got to co-create something that is worth having Both of you can enjoy, where both of you can connect.
Jenn:
Is it a sin when saying no to sex due to the demands of the day?
Matt:
First of all, say no or declining a bid for sex one time on one day does not violate 1st Corinthians 7. That says do not deprive one another. Let me just be clear about that. You are not being deprived of sex if your spouse says I can't do it tonight. Let's be very clear about that. That said, I would encourage you as much as it is within your power, to never say no. Sometimes, though, that looks like I'm not saying no, but I am saying it'll be better if we wait till tomorrow.
Jenn:
So here's what I can offer you tonight, but tomorrow, here's what I could offer, and then you two together have a choice. This is the level of connection I have available in my physical body tonight, but tomorrow night or Friday night, after we get a babysitter and we put forth some effort to create a lot of alone time together, this is the level, and so sometimes it's worth the wait. Sometimes later is the answer. Yes, that will work best for us, but sometimes it's I really need, I want a place of connection with us tonight, and so you connect on the Tuesday night level of connection. But you also know the Friday night level of connection is coming later. It's about seeing each other and being willing to connect with one another.
Jenn:
Here to go, matt referred to mercy sex. We define that as one of you just showing up as a body. Stop just showing up as a body. Why is it is not doing your wifely duty. You don't keep your husband from straying by giving him sex. That is not connected sex. That is not what God had in mind. First of all, it's your husband's job to keep himself pure, not yours. But it is your job to seek regular connection with your beloved. That looks different on different nights, doesn't it? So sometimes it's not that you're saying no, it's that you're saying later, or that you're saying this is the level tonight, the later it could be this. Now, if your later keeps becoming later, later, later, later, then you need to lean into what's happening there.
Matt:
And I think this is where for sexual pursuers. This is why it's so important for you to be very explicit about initiating. Just asking your wife to have sex with you is not a very good question, unless you're very clear about what your expectations are, because that might mean I want to have sex with you by hanging from the chandeliers, upside down and backwards for six hours until the dawn. Or it might mean I just want to connect with you in a very quick and easy way. But I really need some kind of connection tonight, and I'm not expecting fireworks, I'm just expecting connection. Aren't those two different questions?
Matt:
But we, as pursuers sometimes use the same words to ask those two questions. No wonder our wife says no or our spouse says no because they don't know what they're agreeing to. So be explicit about what your expectations are. Like you know, honey, I just want to be together tonight, whatever that looks like, or sometimes I'm really looking forward to something really extravagant. Is tonight the best night for that, or should I set my expectations for sometime else? Be clear about your initiation and both of you will benefit All right, these next two questions I think go together.
Jenn:
Maybe they only go together in my brain.
Matt:
No, they definitely do.
Jenn:
Is it okay to keep a secret from your spouse? And then should men avoid sharing personal struggles with their wives to maintain respect and love, seeking support from a sound brotherhood group instead.
Matt:
Good questions. Unless it's a surprise birthday gift, I would say it's probably never a good idea to keep a secret from your spouse. If you are keeping secrets from your spouse, you are not one, and that, to me, is the most fundamental definition of marriage, all the way back in Genesis 2. That God joined them together as one, one flesh. Even specifically, if you're keeping secrets from your spouse, you're not one, and I get it, and I used to fall into this the same way. Oh, my wife is so busy and she's so overwhelmed and I'm dealing with all these other things and I don't want to burden her with anything else. That is, that's garbage. You don't want to burden her because you don't want to deal with the shame of confronting your own weaknesses. Your wife is a big girl. She is a grown up person. She is more than capable of dealing with your problems and hers.
Jenn:
How can she be your helpmate if you're not letting her be your helpmate? Isn't that what she's called to? To be your sustainer beside? How can she do that if you're denying her that the access to who you really are, what it is you really struggle with?
Matt:
Now, is there value in having a trusted brotherhood that can support you and hold you accountable? Absolutely. There's a way in which a man can hold another man accountable that your wife is incapable of doing. I get that, but if your brotherhood knows more about you than your wife does, you're married to the wrong person. You're not protecting your wife by withholding secrets from her. You're shielding her out of your life and you are being selfishly unmanly by not admitting and dealing with your weaknesses and having her help. You hold you accountable. All right, sermon over Janice. Thanks again for joining us. We would love to have your feedback on this episode, on these questions in particular. Did we get them right? Do you have some suggestions or feedback? We would love to hear from you. You can contact us by emailing us at podcast at intimate covenant dot com, or to submit an anonymous feedback or question. Go to intimate covenant dot com, slash podcast and click the button Contact the podcast for an anonymous submission form.
Jenn:
Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing, rating and sharing the podcast. We're truly humbled by all your encouragement and support. Thanks especially to our Patreon subscribers for coming alongside us in a very real way. If intimate covenant has blessed you and your marriage, we'd love to have you join us too. Subscribe at patreoncom. Slash intimate covenant.
Matt:
So next time, as always, keep striving and don't settle.