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Cherishing, Matt & Jenn
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Thanks for sharing, rating, reviewing and subscribing!
Cherishing, Matt & Jenn
PS — If you have been blessed by the message of this podcast, we would deeply appreciate your support by donating to our mission of spreading God’s plan for intimate marriage and holy sexuality.
Hey, jen wanna talk about sex during times of conflict.
Speaker 2:
Uh, I'm not fighting about this right now. Great.
Speaker 1:
Today on the podcast, we're sharing segments from a recent live Q&A session, including how do we maintain sexual connection while we're fighting? Let's do it. Welcome to the Intimate Covenant podcast, where we believe the Bible and Great Married Sex both belong on your kitchen table. That's right. We're talking about holy covenant-bound intimate relationships with hot sex.
Speaker 2:
We are Matt and Jen, founders of Intimate Covenant. We offer biblical teaching and resources to help married couples achieve a fuller relationship and an extraordinary sex life. For more information, visit our website, IntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1:
Welcome, friends.
Speaker 2:
Welcome. Thanks for joining us again on the Intimate Covenant podcast.
Speaker 1:
So glad to have you along with us. The show would not be the same without you. Thanks for listening. We sure love you for listening. Before we get into today's episode, we just wanted to remind everyone that registration for the annual marriage retreat is ongoing.
Speaker 2:
Mm-hmm, it is live. It has been since February 14th and we are already halfway filled, which is super exciting. Most importantly for all of you listening that are not registered, you need to know that our early bird pricing ends on Friday, march 15th, which is just a few days after we release this podcast.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that's true. You just have a couple of days left if you want to take advantage of special savings. Save your spot and save a little bit of money by registering early. Just to remind everybody, you don't have to pay the full registration fee upfront. You can save your spot with just a $200 deposit.
Speaker 2:
So lock your spot and lock you into the early bird pricing. Yes correct.
Speaker 1:
So register early, get a little bit of savings and save your spot. Like Jen said, space is limited and we are filling up faster than maybe ever before, faster than ever.
Speaker 2:
So it's already shaping up to be the best one yet.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely. And just to remind everybody that the annual retreat happens in the Woodlands, texas, which is just north of Houston, beautiful area, beautiful venue. Go to the website intimatecovenantcom slash retreat to get a lot more details, including find that registration form and get signed up. But that retreat, this retreat, the retreat happens September 19th and through the 21st this year. That's right, we certainly would hate for you to miss it. We sure love seeing everybody there every year.
Speaker 2:
That's right. So, Matt we just got back from our Tampa Marriage Day Love this event because this is a repetitive event for us now Speaking of an annual retreat.
Speaker 1:
This is also becoming an annual event for us. It is Springtime in Tampa just seems to equal intimate covenant marriage day.
Speaker 2:
We are liking that. So this was our third consecutive year. So you know, if you do something three times in a row, I mean it's a thing right, it's a custom I think it's a thing we love it. We love spending time with you couples in Tampa. We had a great, great number of couples that were able to join us, and so it was a great day.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely, and we need to give a shout out to our lovely hosts, matt and Laura Richmond. If you're listening, I'm sure you're listening. Thank you for making this day such a special day for us and the entire weekend. Thank you also to Andy and Vicki Koontz for opening up their tiny home for us.
Speaker 2:
I love it. If you know anything about me, you have to know that I am. I am a lover of tiny homes. I just think they're the coolest thing ever, and so it's so much fun to get to stay in the tiny home when we're in Tampa.
Speaker 1:
Truly so. Gracious hosts in in lots of ways and lots of other folks. We had a great opportunity to spend some time with some other really great folks there. Just enjoyed our time immensely, came back refreshed and exhausted after our flights got delayed and we ended up in a hotel overnight and we weren't expecting it.
Speaker 1:
It was a little bit of a fun return home, but missed a day of work because of flight issues, but nevertheless well worth the trip. We had a great time and so we want to share with this episode. We want to share some questions, some segments from the Q and A session. A great Q and A session, really thoughtful questions, as always from our audiences, and so we want to share some segments from those questions, including, as you heard in the intro, how to connect sexually even when you're experiencing periods of conflict. Had another question about how to learn contentment when I desire a certain sex act but my spouse doesn't.
Speaker 2:
Right. And then we had a question about how do we encourage spiritual growth and accountability in one another, how to avoid complacency when things seem good.
Speaker 1:
That was a neat take on on that question the whole keep striving attitude, which I appreciate that attitude and then finally, how to navigate different preferences for sexual frequency Maybe one of the most common questions that we get, but hopefully you'll appreciate our take on this answer in this episode, so we're looking forward to sharing this with you. Hope you enjoy this episode. As always, if you have a question, you can reach us at podcast at intimate covenantcom. You can email us there or go to the website intimate covenantcom slash podcast and click on the button to submit an anonymous question to us as well. Enjoy the show.
Speaker 2:
How to connect sexually with your spouse when you are in conflict and emotionally don't feel like it.
Speaker 1:
That's tough For some folks. Makeup sex is pretty hot and passionate, but I'm not suggesting that you start fights in order to have great sex, because that doesn't work for most of us.
Speaker 1:
Clearly, it is challenging to even feel like you want to emotionally connect with someone who is the source of your emotional turmoil. That is a no brainer, because sex requires emotional vulnerability and physical vulnerability and every sense. To engage fully in a sexual relationship, you are going to have to put yourself in a position where you are even more vulnerable. That happens best when you feel safe, and obviously, if someone is responsible for hurting you, you're not going to feel very safe with them, even just emotionally. So I get it. That is clearly a challenge. I think part of the answer here is that it is going to require.
Speaker 1:
Sometimes, the best thing you can do is just be upfront and face the fact that there is tension and conflict between you. Sometimes you have to say honey, look, I understand things are not where we want them to be. I do want to assure you, though, that I love you, that I want what is best for us, that we are going to get through this, but we can't resolve all of this tonight or even in one night, or even in three weeks of discussions, but I acknowledge that this is between us, but right now would be a good opportunity for us to connect, and I promise that we are going to address.
Speaker 1:
I am acknowledging to you that we are going to address this and I am fully committed to addressing this Is it possible for us to move closer in some other way so that we can feel like connecting in every way? So that means that I'm going to. You can't just say, okay, time out on the fight, let's go have sex and then we'll resume fighting later. That's clearly not going to happen.
Speaker 1:
What that means, though, is if I'm wanting, if I'm going to be the pursuer in this case and I'm going to initiate sexual connection even in the midst of conflict and tension, I'm going to have to be willing to create a space that is safe for my spouse to do so. I'm going to have to create a space where there is some other connection that is occurring maybe lots of other connection that is occurring in lots of other ways for my spouse to feel comfortable enough to be able to come to a place where she or he can also find connection in that experience.
Speaker 2:
I think it's all about learning the art of pause. When we talk about embracing conflict, this is kind of counterintuitive. It's against this idea of resolving conflict. You're not going to resolve conflict. The majority of what you have conflict about are not moral issues. There is not a right and a wrong. It is two people who view something differently. You have placed different expectations. You have different expectations. There's different values that you place on whatever the conflict is about. You may never resolve that, meaning. You may never have the same opinion about that source of conflict. So embracing conflict means that you approach that conflict not again, not from the desire of I want to win, but what can I learn about my spouse within this conflict?
Speaker 2:
There may not be time at 6 PM on Tuesday evening to learn everything there is to learn about your spouse within that conflict. Right, sometimes it's. You know what. We're surrounded by little people right now. We're surrounded by the chaos of our schedules in our everyday life. We need to pause so that we can create a time where we can dive into this in a safer place with one another, meaning by that we both feel like we can more accurately emotionally express how we're feeling about this. So it's called. You know, it's this idea of learning how to press pause on that. But you're not pressing pause on everything, right? Stop the idea of because we don't see eye to eye on one thing now. We pass each other in the hallway without you know, like we're strangers passing in the hallway. Oh, excuse me, you know.
Speaker 1:
Some of us are waiting for everything in our relationship to be right before we can have sex again.
Speaker 2:
And that's never going to happen.
Speaker 1:
Sorry to tell you. You're never going to be in a place where everything is exactly right. It's never going to be perfect.
Speaker 2:
So learn to pause sometimes the conversations. But if you're the one to call the pause, you better be the one to call the unpause. In other words, assure your spouse that you will talk about this with them, you are committed to discussing this and hearing from them and within that, see the beauty of the connection that comes through our sexual union. That can give you the strength from which then you can better deal with that place where you're having conflict. Again, sex isn't the icing, it's the eggs in the cake batter right, it's holding it all together as an integral part of your marriage. So sometimes the healing how do we face that conflict comes from the connection that we share through that sexual union.
Speaker 1:
And if you're both coming to sex for the purpose of connection, then sometimes that in itself can become a building block to reach a better understanding of each other. It can build enough closeness that now you're willing and able to get on the same team rather than fighting against each other. Now you can actually both fight against the problem. It becomes a we problem instead of a you versus me problem, and that is I think part of the power of the sexual relationship.
Speaker 2:
It is a place and it can actually be an escape If everything in your life is terrible.
Speaker 1:
Find something that's worth looking forward to and co-create something that is worth doing that is mutually beneficial to each of you. That would be my challenge to you. ["the.
Speaker 2:
What if I won a specific sex act but my spouse doesn't? And no matter how hard I try, I can't be happy without it. How can I learn to sacrifice and be content".
Speaker 1:
The specific wording of this question is interesting, I think, specifically this piece about I can't be happy without it. That kind of language suggests to me that I'm still seeking the wrong thing, that my attachment to whatever this outcome is is perhaps unhealthy and unfounded and certainly not beneficial for my relationship. Again this comes back to. I think perhaps it's a big paradigm shift for some of us, and it certainly was for me in the beginning, that the enjoyment that I'm going to get from the sexual relationship is not about any specific thing, but the enjoyment, the pleasure from sex is ultimately going to come from the connection that is created. And I think a big part of this is coming back to this idea of gratitude and praise. Contentment is found in gratitude. Contentment is found in giving acknowledgement for what I have and for what has been provided to me. And if I stop focusing on what I don't have and I learn to focus on what I do have, that is an entire shift in my well-being, that's an entire shift in where I'm headed. That's a complete shift in, then, what my goals are. If I'm constantly looking at what is, if I'm constantly looking at what I have instead of what I don't have, then I can finally learn to be content. So I would take issue with the fact that it's that you have done all you can do to be happy without this If I'm being.
Speaker 1:
I don't know who asked this question, so I'm not trying to be critical. I understand where you're coming from. I've been there. I've definitely been the pursuer who can't be satisfied because my spouse if they would my thought was, if they would only do this, then everything would be so much better. And you know what. Sometimes we actually did this and you know what. It didn't really change anything, because my contentment will never come from what I get. My contentment comes from acknowledging and recognizing what I already have. And if I stop looking at what I want and start focusing on what my spouse is already giving me, not just sexually but in every way, then I mean that is a life-changing moment that really changes everything. So it has to start with gratitude and praise. I think that's gratitude in particular.
Speaker 2:
Well, and I think we have to both. You have to have the understanding that we all have preferences Within this big box of what God has allowed. Again, no third party's in your better, in your head. Pleasure, and it's for the purpose of pleasure and connection. It does not involve pain. Okay, we've got check mark, all of those. There's our box.
Speaker 2:
Well, that's a big box, but guess what? Your spouse has a circle of preference and you have a circle of preference, and those circles aren't exactly the same. They're never going to line up the same. Your goal is to you know the Venn diagram like move the circles close to one another and have some good areas of overlap. When Matt talks about gratitude, be grateful for the beautiful areas of overlap, because if your focus is mutual pleasure and connection, those areas of overlap is where you're best going to find it. Now, does that mean that circles can't grow and expand? Yes, they can and they should. I mean I guess I would also the flip side of this question if this was perhaps your spouse that could ask this question.
Speaker 2:
I think it's OK for me to press into you and say why? Why is that one act? A definite hard no? You might have a very valid reason, and I'm not challenging you that you don't have a valid reason, but you better be able to define your reason and make sure that why you are holding fast to that reason is a valid reason. You know, oftentimes especially sexual responders we like to claim our preferences as God's laws. That's not necessarily the case, and so learn to lean into. Why is it a no? And could it perhaps be that that's a no right now? That asked me again in three months. Is it something I could grow into?
Speaker 1:
At the very least be willing to engage the conversation, even if it comes up every three months.
Speaker 2:
And be willing to hear why that might mean something to your pursuer. So it's never about the act, it's about what does it mean. What does it mean to me? Therefore, I'm saying no, what does it mean to you? And therefore the reason why you're asking? Because if we can have a conversation about what it means, it may be that we could come together in another place where that meaning is able to be addressed in another way.
Speaker 1:
How do you intentionally invest and avoid complacency in our marriage during times of peace Again, and I'm sure that I sound like I'm being critical when I answer these questions sometimes and I don't really mean it that way. So I hope it's not taken that way. But again, I'm not going to say that I'm going to be in a position where it's not taken that way. But again, my thought process, and maybe it's just because I enjoy living a very chaotic and out of control life at least I seem to because I keep making the same choices that lead to chaos and out of control in my life. But peace is not the goal, and when there are times of peace, sometimes that should be a signal to me about any growing happening.
Speaker 1:
Now is it nice to have a weekend off once in a while and take a break, of course, and should there perhaps be phases and times in our life that are more peaceful than others? Yes, and if you have found some peace in your life I'm not trying to spoil that. I frankly don't really know what that looks like exactly. Maybe that's my own fault, but I would suggest that when there are times of peace, that is perhaps a signal to me that I need to find somewhere new, to grow. So interrupt that peace with some growth, and sometimes that means read a book, invest in someone else, start a project, do something to find a place where I can serve. Use, perhaps, the gift. If you have peace in your life, use that gift to be a place of service for other people and if you can leverage your marriage to help others.
Speaker 1:
Even more power to you. That is an opportunity that you should not let pass by. But I don't know how you avoid complacency other than, as I constantly remind myself at the end of every podcast episode keep striving and don't settle. Don't settle for the happy little life that we have created. That's not the goal, that's not the purpose, that is not, in many cases, not the best use of the gifts that I have been given. So don't settle for wherever you are. Good enough is not good enough.
Speaker 2:
Well and I think this goes back to what we were saying in, some of the sessions find places to be curious. So how do we avoid complacency? Well, we keep being curious about one another. If you have been blessed to be married for a number of years, do not make the mistake of thinking you already know your beloved. You know we were. We have been married almost 27 years now. On our 25th anniversary, we took this incredible trip together, and part of our trip we were at this beautiful resort in the Caribbean and we took the sunset cruise. I mean you picture like the best romantic movie and we were living it.
Speaker 1:
It was amazing. We were sailing on Academaran at sunset, at sunset with beauty, and there was a rainbow that suddenly appeared over the mountains Along the shoreline, right literally over the resort where we were staying. It was. You could not make this. It was amazing.
Speaker 2:
But we shared that sail. It wasn't a private sail, so there you go, you can verse the bubble there. We had to share it with other couples but ironically, on that cruise was three other couples that were all newlywed. They were all celebrating their honeymoon. They were there on their honeymoon and it blew their minds that we were celebrating our 25th anniversary. And you know we had some conversation with them, but we also tried to enjoy the moment. Just the two of us and one couple actually took our picture undenounced to us and then gave it to us. It wasn't creepy, don't worry.
Speaker 2:
And then said I want you to have this picture because I captured this moment between the two of you and they were expressing awe at the way that we were relating to one another. What we noticed was the comfortableness between us versus what they were experiencing. There was all sorts of tension between them because they didn't know one another. But our comfortableness comes not just because we know one another, but because we keep knowing one another. We keep asking the questions and I will tell you that even on that trip we had conversations we had never had before and we learned things about one another that were different than what we thought we knew, because it was a different answer at 25 years than it was at year one, at year two, at year 10. So you avoid complacency when you keep being curious about one another, when you keep seeking one another.
Speaker 1:
I can't answer that any better. Did I get it Beautiful? What if my spouse wants daily sex and I'm happy with weekly or monthly sex? How do we find a path that doesn't upset one or both of us? Well, you can't.
Speaker 1:
I mean this is the root of, frankly, 95% of the questions that we get how can I get what I want without making my spouse upset? Or how can I get my spouse to do this without making them upset? And the truth is you can't. Now does that mean we just throw up our hands and give up? Of course not. But if you're trying to come to an agreement without conflict, then you're asking for something that is impossible. So the first step is you're going to have to lean into the uncomfortability of this conversation and probably because you're asking the question, you already are. So, again, I don't mean criticism when I suggest this, but what if and this is not an unusual question I mean no, this is probably the heart of most sexual conflict is about frequency.
Speaker 1:
One of you wants sex more frequently than the other and, frankly, it's not even about who you married, because no matter who you married, there would be a difference in the desire for frequency. If you married someone else, they might want more than you. If you married someone else, they might want less than you, but it will never be exactly the same. So how do we deal with that?
Speaker 2:
And that's not your goal. We think that's our goal to want sex exactly the same, in the exact same ways at the exact same time. That's actually not your goal.
Speaker 1:
And if you want some studies, I could cite several studies that tell you exactly what the number is for happily married couples, the frequency with which they have sex. I'm intentionally not going to share that with you.
Speaker 2:
That is the question everybody wants us to answer. Just tell me how many times we should be having sex.
Speaker 1:
Because, frankly, the studies don't answer that question. How frequently should I be having sex with my spouse? The study does not answer that question. It only looks at a great big population. It doesn't say anything about you and your spouse. But here, I think, is the answer, which is not an answer, it's a challenge more.
Speaker 1:
The answer is you need to be having as much sex not more and not less as much sex as is required to maintain the maximum level of connection in your marriage. For some of you, that's going to be more than you would ideally choose on your own. For other of you, that's going to be a lot less than what you would ideally choose on your own. But you have to co-create something that is maximizing the connection in your marriage and I don't know what that is for you and I'm not, frankly, interested in having that conversation with you and your spouse, unless you really need some help, maybe guiding the conversation.
Speaker 1:
But I really don't want to know and I don't know what the answer is. I don't know what it means to you, I don't know what the level of frequency, more or less. I don't know what that means to you, and only you can share that with your spouse, only you can tell them why it would be better to have more or less. Only you can determine where is the maximum amount of connection occurring, because, look, there is in fact. I know it's hard for pursuers to believe there is in fact a level of frequency that is too much to build connection. If you were asked to have sex every hour for the rest of your lives, would it be meaningful? After the first day or two it would be a chore. So have some sympathy for your spouse who maybe, if I'm asking them over and over and all the time I'm asking to engage in sex with them, that ultimately becomes meaningless to them.
Speaker 1:
Do you want to have sex with someone who doesn't care? Do you really? If you do, you don't understand the sexual relationship. I hope all of you want to have sex with someone who is actually engaged. Nobody wants mercy sex, just a body. Nobody wants to have sex with just a body. If you do, you need some help and you need to better understand what the point is. So find a frequency between the two of you. Work out a frequency that maximizes that. That's going to change, sometimes weekly, depending on what is happening in your life.
Speaker 2:
Right. Unfortunately, there is no magic number that, for the rest of your marriage, will be the number, because it's all about the season of life that you're in. It may be all about what week in the month you are in, so it's a continual conversation that needs to be happening.
Speaker 1:
And yeah, so if you have a desire for sex, then express that to your spouse in an explicit and meaningful way and offer some connection, find ways to connect and then make that happen in your relationship. Did I avoid the question altogether? Good enough.
Speaker 2:
How do you discuss spiritual growth with your spouse without being offensive? Ie quote have you prayed about it, without sounding like I'm questioning their faith? To how do we hold each other spiritually accountable? If we're committed to being spiritually intimate with one another, then that necessitates a knowledge of where we need to grow, where we're failing and where we need to grow spiritually. How do you do that in a way that respects one another? Sometimes it looks a lot more like not. Have you prayed about it, but will you join me in prayer? I'd like, together, for us to pray about this struggle. And do you be vulnerable with your struggle and with what you know your spouse is struggling with?
Speaker 1:
To be clear, it's actually okay for you to question their faith husbands or wives. I don't know why you would avoid that. Sometimes my faith needs to be questioned and I'm grateful to have a spouse who's willing to hold me accountable in that way. I hope you would be too.
Speaker 2:
Ultimately, that's what we're meant to be. We are intimate allies with one another. You better be fighting for your spouse's soul, so that may mean a very uncomfortable conversation.
Speaker 1:
I would not be the kind of man that I am without that kind of accountability in our relationship and I still fall very short. But just imagine how worthless I would be without that level of accountability.
Speaker 1:
So yes, I am grateful that she has questioned my faith and my devotion and my spirituality at times and again, but is there a way to say that? Maybe that's a little more seasoned with salt? Of course and that's what I should be looking for there's a way to say that that makes it a we problem and not a you problem. Like Janet gave the example, what can I be praying for? Where are you struggling spiritually? Those are kinds of questions that are a lot less accusatory and a lot less likely not impossible, but less likely to evoke a defensive response. Thanks, as always, for listening. That's all the time we have for questions in this episode, but we would love to hear your feedback. What did we get right? What did we get wrong? What do you have to add to the conversation? We'd love to hear your feedback. You can contact us by emailing the podcast at podcast at intimate covenantcom, or you can submit anonymous feedback or questions by going to our website intimate covenantcom slash podcast and click the button contact the podcast for an anonymous submission form.
Speaker 2:
Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing, rating and sharing the podcast. We are truly humbled by all your encouragement and your support. Thanks especially to our Patreon subscribers for coming alongside us in a very real way. If intimate covenant has blessed your marriage, we'd love to have you join us too. Subscribe at patreoncom. Slash intimate covenant.