Friends & Fellow Citizens
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Friends & Fellow Citizens
#126 Part I: A Show About Podcasting - Insight and Lessons by Two Podcasters feat. Francisco Kilgore and Sherman Tylawsky
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What goes into the process of podcasting? After nearly three years since Friends & Fellow Citizens began, this special, two-part, two-way interview episode features Sherman and fellow podcaster Francisco Kilgore, who hosts his own program "Hello Sonoma!". Both provide deeper insight into the podcast production process, including tips on how to start and maintain your own podcast!
Listen to Part 2 for more!
Check out Francisco's podcast "Hello Sonoma!"
Helpful podcast links to get started and/or learn more:
- Riverside - hgh quality audio and video recording
- Descript - editing audio, text, and video all at once
- Calendly –immensely useful scheduling tool
- Airtable - keeping track of your podcast
- Buzzsprout - podcast hosting platform
- Pat Flynn Blog about Starting a Podcast
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IMPORTANT NOTE/DISCLAIMER: All views expressed by the host are presented in his personal capacity and do not officially represent the views of any affiliated organizations. All views presented by guests are solely those of the interviewees themselves and may or may not represent the views of their affiliated organizations, the host, Friends & Fellow Citizens, and/or The George Washington Institute.
Podcasting
SPEAKER_01Patriotism, faith, national unity, education, fiscal responsibility, civility, the values that define America. Fascinating stories and talks from America-loving patriots dedicated to preserving freedom, opportunity, and justice. Welcome to the Friends and Fellow Citizens Podcast. We're going to be adding some new features to our Patreon page. So if you haven't already, make sure to check out our Patreon page down in the show notes below. I really appreciate your support. Anything that you can do to support this program, I very much am so grateful for all of your help. And if you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Friends and Fellow Citizens if you enjoy our content. You can also do that down in the show notes below. Today we're going to be doing a special interview episode. Instead of me interviewing a guest, I am going to be doing a collaborative interview episode with a good friend of mine named Francisco Kilgore, who runs his own podcast, and we thought it would be a great first-time episode, basically a podcast episode about podcasting. A lot of you have asked about the podcast process, and certainly when I go out and talk to people, it's always a topic that comes out. And so I'd like to give all of you an opportunity to hear firsthand from two podcasters to get a sense of what the podcasting process looks like, why we do what we do, and even some tips and resources on how to start your own podcast. Or if you know of anyone, you can certainly share this episode with your friends, your family, whoever might maybe interested in podcasting. We hope that this will be a good resource for all of you to use in the future. And let us know if you like to have more content on the podcasting process. I will first introduce Francisco here with his bio, and then we will cut straight into our conversation. Born and raised in Northern California, Francisco lives, works, and broadcasts from Sonoma, California. He graduated from George Washington University in Washington, DC, where he majored in anthropology, a focus which fostered a fascination with and appreciation for humanity around the world. He has lived and worked on a dude ranch in Wyoming with nonprofits in Jordan, as well as startups and schools in Brazil. Despite his international journeys, he doesn't believe you have to travel the world to meet interesting people. You can start from your own backyard. And now let's cut right into our conversation about podcasting with Francisco. All right, Francisco. Well, it is great to have this special episode to talk about podcasting. And uh Francisco, I'm gonna let you start with a bit about how you started your podcast, Hello Sonoma.
SPEAKER_00Well, my Hello Sonoma podcast journey started out uh a couple years ago with a more traditional route, which was actually having a radio show. And I still have that radio show local uh station KSVY, 91.3 FM. Uh lovely station. I got invited there to do a PSA for the free meals we were giving out during COVID for the nonprofit that I worked for. And, you know, we just got to talking before recording and after recording, as I'm sure you know, Sherman. Sometimes you have good conversations in those little time slots. And they said, you know, we have a couple of slots for some hosts if you're interested in applying. And I had had a radio show in college, and so I applied. And uh that's the corn kind of genesis of how the show really started.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. I remember meeting Francisco a couple years ago, and uh he was telling me about the radio show, and uh it was like, wow, that's amazing, you know, especially sharing about Sonoma County, and I I think it's brilliant just how and then how people like yourself really get into that space, having already familiarized yourself behind the microphone. I really came in cold. I mean, I've done speaking events before, but I was driving one time with my friend, and we were talking about podcasts, and I told him about how I was having this call of my friend from the UK, and we were talking about a podcast, and he said, you know, you should you should really have a podcast. And I was like, What? I don't think so. But yeah, I thought about it. I was okay, I'm gonna share it with this friend of mine. That's I was back in Texas finishing up my master's degree, and this was right in the middle of COVID, so we were locked down and we were on our way to Costco in Houston. At that time, that was the closest Costco to college station, and we were having a conversation. I sort of said, you know, well, I was thinking about podcasting, and my friend agreed. He said, I think it'd be great to try out this new medium, not to mention everyone is in lockdown, and this would be a great project to work on. And since I was a kid, I always loved learning about American history and wanted to apply history to the present day, applying it to civics and politics. And so I graduated virtually, of course, with the master's degree, and then the summer after I worked on the title and all the little bits, and of course, we're gonna get into some of that a little bit later. Uh, but that was really how it started. It was started from some friends thinking that was a great idea, and then it took a little while for me to think that it was a great idea. And I before we move on, I just want to say thank you so much for joining me for this. This is awesome. I've honestly, to you and to the audience, I've been thinking about this kind of episode for a very long time. I keep telling myself, I'm gonna do an episode about podcasting, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. And finally, I think this is the right time to do it, especially uh as uh this month uh marks the uh three about three years since I've done this. And so I feel like it's just about time that uh we share a little bit about since we've been doing podcasting for about the same amount of time. Why don't we uh get right into it and do do an episode? So uh Francisco, uh, what do you want to start off with in terms of of why why podcasting, especially since you were coming from the radio side? Uh let's talk about why we got into podcasting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you know what, you're right, Sherman. I totally put the cart before the horse, and I should thank you for so much for having me on this program. I kind of um, you're kind of someone who paved the way, I think, for me, in terms of this uh someone to look up to, someone to be inspired. You have done so many episodes. You should be so proud of what you've been able to do and uh your audience that you've accrued is pretty exciting, all of you out there tuning in. Um, so it's been a wonderful journey for me, and I think for both of us to be able to share in that. That's one of the best parts. Um to just have someone else that you can discuss, that you can talk shop, that you can uh uh yeah figure out what you need to be doing.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And thank you so much for the kind words, Francisco. I you know, honestly, especially when we did the interview, I have to always acknowledge that Francisco was kind enough to have me on his podcast last year, and the way that Francisco does things, ladies and gentlemen, is awesome. And it's like that's the it's the quintessential way of scheduling an interview, and especially when we're in different time zones, I was a I was in central time zone at the time when we did our recording, and so these challenges really come about, but you kind of get used to it as a podcaster. But going back to the the purpose of podcasting, the way I remember my time putting together podcasts was all about putting your voice out there, but not only that, it's also connecting with an audience, and you probably hear the word connection a lot probably in our conversation today, but that really is what it's all about. It's not just the Wi-Fi connection that you need for a podcast interview, it's also the connection that you make with the listeners. And I really wanted to do something where I can invite people and have myself do long-form content. And then podcasting for me, at least, is the way to go, is because this is something you can do when you're doing almost anything else, whether you're exercising, whether you're driving to work, whether you're waiting for the bus, or whatever it is that you're doing, uh, this can be more integrated within someone's life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the word connection because that's really what it's all about. Um, for those of you who are tuning in who are wondering who the heck I am, my my show is called Hello Sonoma, and it really was born out of this idea of connecting with the people all around me. It's a small town. A lot of people think about Sonoma as a tourist destination, the town itself. The county is a touristy place that people come to. But as a resident and uh someone who grew up there, it's just a small town feel, you know. It could be it's very similar to the small towns that I've been to all over the country. And I was curious about who those people are, who the people are who run the local grocery store or the local theater, who the people are that I've seen walking around town who are these kind of local icons. And there are not too many opportunities to connect with those people and to just talk with them and to hear their stories. So my program was born out of that curiosity about the people all around me. And I think you, Sherman, do something that's important, which is you know about the history, you know about the stuff you're talking about, you really research what you're doing, which is so important to give context for your listeners about what's happening now and how it relates to the historical context. And I try to research the people all around me to find out a little bit of their story beforehand so that we can have a deeper conversation. You know, it's kind of like when you meet someone the first time you talk about the weather or you talk about their job. And I kind of like for our interviews to be like the third or fourth or fifth conversation that you might have with someone about their ideals or their values or their biggest inspirations, their heroes. And I think that's where true connections really form.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, Francisco, I I like what you said about the research element. And without going too much into the technical areas of the research and the guest episodes, I want to jump on that point because so much of our episodes occurs before there's even the recording. You know, the researching the guest, contacting the guest. So much happens behind the scenes. I I would say there's also some time of reflection of thinking what kind of episode do we want? What kind of things can we expect from the product that we're planning? And it can kind of goes back to that why element of like, why are we doing this? Because you can't, I don't think you can make an episode without knowing why you're doing it. And I feel like what you are doing, especially with the little town of Sonoma, which I really love, people really need to visit. There's so many uh cool little historic spots. There's some great dining and shopping options there. By setting that mission, which I think you've clearly done, uh, it really brings about a new sense of purpose every time you hit the record button with a different guest or a different episode.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I definitely think even before the whole show starts, there's a certain element of research about what you want to talk about. Um, you kind of mentioned your love of history and your desire to get things started. Was there a moment where you figured out how you were going to translate that interest into a show? That's a great question.
SPEAKER_01I wanted to ensure that people can be open about history and civics. I think that's the first starting point, which is the environment that you and
Podcast Equipment and Recording Techniques
SPEAKER_01I set. I think when we do an episode, and I recall from the recording that we've done, which is when people feel comfortable, and when people know that this is a show that is not about Democrats versus Republicans or Americans versus whatever country or this or that, when you send when you break down those inherent barriers that for various reasons exist, then I think you really bring about the essence of someone and their perspectives, because then they feel like it's not just someone going, all right, here's my point of view, and uh, I'm with this team or with that group, and that's all I want to say. You know, it then then then it just becomes like, well, what's the point of having a conversation? Why can't you just record that person's perspectives? And the dynamic that I I remember you set when we had our conversation was just like I felt like we were in somewhere in Sonoma, of course. I was somewhere in Texas, uh a little different from Sonoma. Uh, but I remember us sitting down and just feeling like okay, the the best ideal scenario would be in person, but to for you to be able to set that tone, I think is so critical. And I think it speaks to the kind of podcast that you put out and why you want to connect with people. Um, and it's just it's it's a brilliant thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I also think the way that you connect with someone is not through, for better or worse, at the moment, not through like three-minute clips um that you hear and all kinds of other different media. Um and there's something powerful about just like you mentioned, this long form of being able to sit with someone. And if you're gonna sit with someone for a long time, you sure better be comfortable. Or it's a lot easier to be comfortable if the goal is to make those connections, I think.
SPEAKER_01I didn't know I was gonna put together a shopping list before I started doing podcasting. Because obviously, Francisco, you have a quality microphone and so do I. And what what's surprising maybe to some people is that the technical equipment is so essential to the podcasting element. So tell us about the equipment that you have or just what that equipment is doing to elevate your podcast.
SPEAKER_00Totally. So I think my technological philosophy is that you don't have to have quote unquote the right equipment to get started. I just recorded an episode completely on my phone uh not too long ago because I just didn't have the the right thing at the right time. Um opportunity showed up to walk in the Fourth of July parade, so I had my phone and I interviewed people. What else could I do? But once you reach, you know, once you've got stuff going, it's about improving, about getting better. And so slowly I started getting more things. The radio station lent me this microphone, which I have right now. I can't tell you what it kind it is because I'm not even sure myself. Um, but I did get some little uh uh what are they called? Wireless microphones. I got a special, I don't know if you want me to say the names of these things, a special H5, uh Zoom H5 recorder that has a little bit of capabilities. Um I'm still by no means an expert on these things. It's something that I'm learning, but I feel like I'm in phase two of the technological journey. The first technological journey phase is just get started on whatever you have if you really want to share something. The second phase is like learn and improve, where I definitely am. And the third phase is like really get insane. Uh, because there's a lot of possibilities out there, I think. And what about you, Sherman? It looks like you have a pretty cool microphone rig going on. How did you figure out what you needed and and pull the trigger on what you needed to buy?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, it came from the Pat Flynn uh channel. Uh Pat Flynn, just as a quick reference, especially for those who listen to business podcasts, he uh does a great job of telling people how they should start uh podcasts. We'll obviously link that down in the show notes below. But uh he said, okay, you know what? These are the kinds of things that you should consider purchasing. So I really went kind of went the lazy way here. I was just like, okay, well, you're telling me to get these kind of microphones, I'll get these kind of microphones. And so the setup is really just it's what's nice is that it's portable, it doesn't take up as much space as people expect. Uh, you can dismantle it and put it together quite easily and quickly. Uh, this is an Audio Technica microphone. I don't think they make this model anymore, which you know now it makes me feel old, but you know, it's you know it's something I got a few years ago. The multiple purposes of a microphone. Like I've noticed that when I do calls with this microphone, it's not to say like people will be like, oh my gosh, now this person is Superman or anything, but it's like but it the the clarity of the voice, I think, makes it more real, and for whatever reason, it just sounds more authoritative. It gives you more confidence that you're speaking with someone, and it doesn't have that sort of, as we all are probably familiar with, that sort of computer or computer mic sound, which you know that is is just you know the standard quality. Uh but you know it is what it is, and I think it's a fit phenomenal investment. And even if people are maybe not yet ready to go to podcasting, I highly recommend getting a good quality microphone. Uh I just want to say podcasting in a way has uh has given people clearer voices on on the internet in a way.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. Going from the you know, there's a famous saying on the internet for video that it looks like it was recorded on a potato. You remember in like 2008?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00We're starting to learn about the audio equivalent of that, which is like uh I don't know what that would be like like a wax cylinder or something. Um but yeah, it is great to get a to get a good microphone.
SPEAKER_01Let's look at the recording and the editing element. Uh, we're using Zencaster right now, uh, which is free to use, and they do have a couple of payment options, but and even for just a normal podcaster, I think this is a good investment. But just generally, Francisco, how how do you feel about the recording equipment that you have developed with it comes to the editing and just capturing that audio? Uh, because there's so many options out there, it probably can scare some people into thinking, oh gosh, if I start a podcast, now I have to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars into the software and the hardware and everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, there's a lot of options out there, and I by no means am the expert. As I mentioned, I'm in that phase two of constantly learning. There is a lot of technology that goes beyond the microphone, though that's clearly the most important part, probably. Um, there's, as you mentioned, the actual recording software if you're doing remote recordings, which are pretty helpful. I use a different software called Riverside, which is pretty similar. You can record audio. There's different ways to there's different programs or levels, I guess. Um, the free version, you can download all the audio files as one mono file. Um, in other words, you can't separate out the two different speakers, but you can pay more to do that, and there's different benefits. Um, so that's the recording software, the editing software. I use Adobe Audition, uh, which is a paid software. There's, of course, GarageBand if you have a Mac computer. There's Audacity is a good one. So that's another part of the technological aspect. Um, I also use a software called Descript to help edit out the ums and ahs and the hemming and howing that happens, uh, trying to go through things more quickly, especially because you know we have we all have busy, busy days. And so it's nice to be able to go through the the interview pretty quickly. What else? I mean, there's there's so many different little aspects, everything from how to manage things beforehand, how to manage who you're reaching out to, your emails, your files, what happens to the files afterwards, where you host them. So, Sherman, can maybe you can talk about a little bit about your specific setup for how you maybe you could just walk us through how an episode happens for you.
SPEAKER_01Oh, absolutely. And I want to first of all say that what you said about the technical elements, like what you're looking for and and the files and features and whatnot, it's going to vary depending on the person. But I'd say one thing to keep in mind is you want to make sure that the technical stuff that you have, the hardware and the software, ensures that your voice is clear. As possible because there is nothing worse than hearing a podcast, and the podcast audio is just god-awful. Now, you know, the sometimes, right? Sometimes it's not gonna be as clear as you want it to be because of the guest audio, right? Because not everyone has a microphone like you and me. Uh so it, but it still has to be clear, right? Like at least it has to be like a good phone call quality sort of audio. I recall trying to listen to a podcast. This someone had messaged me, a connection on LinkedIn messaged me, and he kindly asked if I could take a listen to his podcast. And he sounded like he had good content, but the audio was just not good. And you know, and this is one of the things that I try to warn people about, right? It's like make sure the audio is good because it can be the best quality in the world. But if you don't have the technology or the hardware to capture that audio, no one's gonna ever find out, you know, and so I I just kind of put it out there as in case people are struggling, like, okay, which ones are gonna be good for me in terms of the hardware and software, make sure the sound, I think it's my opinion, I think sound quality is is what you need to go for, or at least maximize. But I guess in terms of the make an episode, once you get past the research elements, all that, and when once we get to guests, I think we can probably speak more about that. But uh, when it comes to putting together an episode, the first thing you got to think of is what where are we going with this episode? Right? Like what what sort of topics do you really want to discuss? And the other element, too, especially for a guest episode, which is what are some things that I know that this guest wants to discuss? And so it's a hard line to kind of walk because maybe what you might want to prioritize might not be a priority for your guest. However, it's good to think provide a good roadmap. And so I provide my guests a an outline of some sort uh just to kind of give them an idea of what sort of topics because some of them have done a lot of different things, right? It's just hard to you know, imagine if I went to Francisca and okay, Francisca, um we're gonna do an episode. I want I want you to just talk about your entire life. Like it would just then you'd be like, Well, what part is of my life, right? What sort of areas are gonna be more interesting than others? And it would just be such a pain. So uh I try to give a roadmap, and then when we do the recording, for the interview episodes at least, I really defer so much of the audio. And I've I've improved on this a lot more, I think, ever since I started. But I've I try to make it at least 80% the guest speaking, because a lot of these I've never had other than three of the original three guests I've had,
Finding Inspiration and Setting Standards
SPEAKER_01I have not had a repeat guest. So I really consider each episode just treating it as the only time that this guest is going to be on the program. Now that might change, they might become on later or for another episode, but uh I I really sit back, and I the way I frame it is I try to just sit back, relax, and enjoy the show because it really is that opportunity for that guest to speak his or her mind. And it's really nice, I think, to see, as you probably know too, probably talking to some people who have incredible stories uh relating to Sonoma and Sonoma County, but it just sitting back, I think, is and listening and but also being that moderator, being the leader and saying, saying, okay, this is where we're going, uh, that I think is what goes into a decent uh podcast episode.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And it totally depends on what your focus is, too. If you're doing those interview shows, figuring out who your inspirations are. There's this great book that I have that you've probably um read called Steal Like an Artist by Austin Cleon. Do you know that one? I've heard of it, yeah. Uh great book about getting inspiration, being inspired. He has a couple of other books called uh like Show Your Work. There's another book called Making Ideas Happen by Scott Belski. And I think it's important for you to figure out who you want to be like. I mean, not in terms of copying, but in terms of which aspects you want to aspire to. You talked about presenting a guest with the with the challenge of talking about their entire lives. It's kind of like presenting someone with the challenge of the entire podcast space, the entire audio space, and figuring out what your focus is going to be is important. And I I think it's important to do that by being inspired. There's so many people to be inspired by. So I'm wondering, Sherman, if you have any people that inspired you in your journey, people that you looked up to, um, not necessarily that you copied, but just kind of got energy from.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I thought a lot about President George H.W. Bush when I started my podcast, because the first three guests who were on my program were all fellow Bush School students. So we were doing the same master's degree program, and I thought it would be not only a substantive reason to have them on because they have expertise in all kinds of areas of foreign policy, but I also felt there was a symbolic element to having a set of guests from a school that was started by a president who had who earned a lot of respect on both sides of the aisle. And I felt that I wanted to try to channel that energy uh and that environment throughout all my episodes. So even though people might agree or disagree with the guests, and there have been times when you know I've had a guest on, and someone says, Oh, I just didn't feel like this person was conveying these kinds of views or something, but but you you kind of you just know that throughout the time where you're creating these episodes, that you you think of the people who have set the standards of civility and of conversation. I mean, George H. W. Bush certainly knew how to converse with people. I mean, he conversed with all kinds of leaders and um people from all different and different uh walks of life, and uh even up to the time of his passing, uh, he still maintained those relationships. And so it wasn't he wasn't the
Initiating and Connecting With Podcast Guests
SPEAKER_01only figure, but I felt that because the podcast came out of this time when I was finishing my master's degree at the Bush School, I felt it was just fitting to have him as someone to look up to, especially when we know that times are very divisive now, and we know that there's a lot of work to do, to have people come together. You know, going back to that theme of connection, right? Like uh you you connect with the people who you admire, and then you connect with the people who you're having on. And uh, and I think with your with your podcasts, Francisco, I think that's exactly what you do, is because you I think you take the theme of Sonoma, right? The town of Sonoma, and you take that character, and you and through your episodes, I think it really shines through because when people from that town, they know people from that town, they've been there for years, right? You know, they know they live and breathe that town, and so having those kind of ideals, you know, of knowing what knowing your own town and knowing how the people have shaped that, I think it really comes through your podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Sherman. Yeah, I mean, um it's just important to have those those personal connections in different ways and to to be able to shine a light on them, to highlight them, to make them feel special and to make the community recognize them.
SPEAKER_01You obviously have had a lot of people on, and uh it's it's really remarkable. I just have to say, it's remarkable how people can make connections with these this long-form content. Like I don't think people really expected this. I thought maybe people thought, okay, well, long-form content, right? Well, it takes a lot longer to consume, right? And I just to kind of tie in with my question to you, I read a stat somewhere where the average time attention span, I should say, for different media was studied, and they found that for blogs it was something like one to three minutes, something like that. I'm kind of I'm kind of guessing, but you can kind of get the sense of where we're going. For YouTube videos, I think the ideal time is about six or seven minutes. After six or seven minutes, people kind of get sick and tired of watching a video. For podcasts, what's amazing is that people can consume the average consumption time of a podcast was something like 40 or 45 minutes, which is significantly longer than the kind of content that we were used to. And so with the guests now, you know, bringing that different perspective and people listening to them for so long, uh, what what's been your experience uh working with guests? Like I guess well, let's start from the more at the beginning here. Uh, how do you s initiate that process of getting them on board for the episode recording?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I think it kind of goes back to the values of the program. I mean what the program is all about. And for me, that not only is it about connection, but it's about compassion, it's about curiosity, and it's about making the guests look as good as possible. Like in other words, to show the best version of that person. So most people are pretty receptive to that kind of um conversation. It's uh while we don't shy away from challenging topics, it's not like I'm trying to um put them on the spot. And so usually I just go approaching people at the beginning, it was tough. It was tough to find guests. Uh, I had a list of probably 10 or 20 people that I thought would be interesting as a starting place, and that list has grown significantly. And at the beginning, I was just asking, you know, if you know anybody at the end of an episode that you'd be curious about, learning a little bit about their story, let me know. And the length of the episode changed, and the format of the episode changed since the beginning. Originally, since the radio hour is split up into three 20-minute segments, I thought I would have two guests in each of the two, two of the 20-minute segments, one 20-minute segment of music in between, and that would be the format. And eventually that changed completely to just one guest over the whole hour, um, which goes about 45 minutes of the guests talking to about an hour. And so um, yeah, just just telling people that they're gonna have this chance to be on the radio, to be on the community radio, I think it really helps that this is a real Sonoma-based situation, that it's gonna be on the internet afterwards as a podcast, so they can share with friends and family wherever they might be. But emphasizing that those values of compassion and curiosity and listening um really helps get people on board. How about you, Sherman? How do you get people on?
SPEAKER_01It's kind of similar to your story, and there's two things that I think we've done the same. I think I've worked quite well. The first is really coming up with an initial list, you know, especially when you're starting. I know maybe some people out there listening might be thinking of starting a podcast or know someone who wants to start podcasts. Um the amount of preparation that you have to do, I think, to start, it's not huge. It's not like it's not like you can't get through it within a few weeks or so, but you still need to have an idea, you know, like who you want to have on the program. And I think that's a great little tip that you have, which is putting out a list of people you're interested, and just know, right? Like you, you know, you want to have a wide cat, you have to cast a wide net, especially initially when you you don't have anything really to show people, just like, okay, I've got I I want to start a show. I don't have any content yet, but I'd love to have you on. So it's gonna be hard, I think, in the beginning, as you as you pointed out.
SPEAKER_00We talked about technology. One piece of technology that's way old school is a business card. I've been I started, I have another Thursday morning radio show, and I needed to get six guests every Thursday. So in total, that's seven people a week that need to come onto the program. So you can best believe now I'm totally not shy at all about handing out my business card and saying, come on, you gotta be a part of this program somehow. Um, and that is definitely a very important part of bringing people on board.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, oh yeah. Now I want a business card that you mentioned. Um and and the you know, the confidence that you put out and kind of related to that second point, which is you know, reaching out. And I know it sounds so simple, right? But if you know, if you don't reach out, you'll never know. And I can tell you that, and Francisco, you might be the same way too, but it's like there's a lot of people who very interesting people, for whatever reason, maybe because everyone's everyone's kind of piled up in emails, or they just don't have time, or they think I'm you know I'm an A, I'm an A-list guest, you know, I'm not gonna I I don't really want to speak to this person who doesn't who's not a Joe Rogan, whatever that reason is, you're always going to run into rejections or non-an or no answers. And it's a natural thing, right? You you know what I mean? Like especially when especially when I started, you know, it's like, okay, well, got my three buddies who I kind of made to uh made them come out of the podcast. Well, I mean, they want to come out, but that's a good place to start. That's right, yeah. So it's like at least you got you start with someone, right? Then you've got then you build that track record over time. And I've noticed, at least personally, I've noticed that once you build a track record, then people are like, oh, all these people have come on. I want to be a part of it. And so when you have that history, it really helps a lot. But it's tough. It's not hard. I think everyone is just afraid of rejection. I think that's what it is. I don't know what you've how you feel about that, Francisco, in terms of like how go overcoming that initials or like, oh geez, I have I have to approach you, I have to co-email people, people never heard of me, but this is how you get started. Otherwise, otherwise, people never will never have a podcast if they never approached anyone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's super true. I'm trying to remember how I did it going back. You know, uh, as you mentioned, it's all about the people that you know already. So my first 10 or 20 guests were people that I knew through my work or through my friends' works, um, who I didn't really have to do that much explaining. They we were basically friends. And then the hard part came after that. But there was something to be said about that social proof of showing, hey, I've already done 20 episodes. You can listen to one. They're on my website, they're on the podcast areas, you can see what I'm the kinds of questions I'll ask you. Um, and then reaching out via email. Yeah, it's, you know, for one one strategy that I did is I went to some Chamber of Commerce events or different events around town, um, whether they be conferences or anything, and just gather business cards or gather a program. And I have this program here of the Sonoma Chamber of Commerce, Sonoma Valley Local Fest, for example. This is very related to my audience. I just went through all the different websites, searched for them on Instagram or whatever, and just sent them a message. And 90% are not gonna respond. That's okay. The 10% that do, you can ask them, hey, if you had a good experience after the interview, uh, tell me about a couple more people. So that's how it started.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate the frankness that you know of the 90%, I think it's somewhere along that number two for me. And you you have to just I know some people are like, oh, 90%, you know, that's that's that's that's huge. But the way I I I think it would be useful for people to know is that now you value that 10% so much more. You know, if if every single person accepted, would would it really be the same sort of value, you know, of reaching out and spending all this effort to reach out to that person? Probably not. Because then you because then everyone is just kind of just a number, you know. It's like, oh well, if you if you don't want to be on the podcast, or if you can't be on podcast for whatever reason, then I've always got someone else. Well, I think when you the when you make that effort, as you you said with Francisco, with your business cards, when you make that effort and that connection uh by giving them something tangible to say, here's a way to listen to my program, here's a way to contact me, then people see that door, and they think maybe they're more likely to walk through it and be like, you know what, this this man sounds interesting. And going back to the confidence element, I mean, this this is gonna take confidence, it's gonna take this acceptance of reality saying, look, guess what? In the entire world, and not every single person on this planet is gonna want to be on the Piasaur or even like you, but that's the way it is, right? Like that is the way there's no way around it. Yeah, so uh uh yeah, you know, you know, anyway, I just say I just say that because uh it's a leap of faith, certainly in the beginning, but then you realize that people might have their own reasons, but you just keep carrying on, you keep doing what you're doing, and it doesn't, and I don't think any rejection or any guest that you couldn't have on the program, I don't think that should let you uh be be disappointed. Uh there's always someone out else out there who most likely would have been better fit for you anyway.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and going back to choosing who to have as guests, I've kind of entered into the second phase. The first phase is like, please, somebody come on my show. I need to start this and it needs to happen. Way back in 2020, you know. Yeah, it's tough. And you kind of work through it, and there's no other way to do it. It's kind of like I envision it as have you ever handed out pamphlets at some kind of public event? I have, yeah. I mean, 99% of people say no to those, but you just gotta do it. That's how you find people find out about it. And so I've entered the kind of second half of that, which is choosing who to have on. Um choosing who I'm gonna reach out to instead of just kind of spraying everywhere. And for that, I've been thinking about a lot about who haven't I had on? What kind of what kind of voices haven't I heard yet? That is if the show is supposed to represent Sonoma, um, how can I best do that? So I'm gonna interview a uh veteran soon who I haven't I hadn't interviewed a veteran before. And if we're talking about people's stories, that's important. Um, I like you, I interviewed someone who also has a podcast. That's an important part of different people's experiences. And just kind of thinking about how can I make this make sense for the audience?
The Importance of Guests in Podcasting
SPEAKER_00I'm sure that you have that experience. I mean, there's thousands and thousands, thousands of people that you could interview, but whittling it down to the people you want to reach out to is probably a process in itself.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And the process of going out and trying something new, that can also be a challenge, too, right? Because everyone wants to just keep doing the same thing, right? It's just kind of a natural tendency. But to your point about trying something new or reaching out to a new kind of guest, it's also one of the more exciting elements of podcasting because when you reach out to these people, I will tell you, I don't know, I don't know how a number right now, but a lot of times I've never even heard this person speak. I don't even know if that person has ever, you know, in terms of like a public speaking, like I've never heard of a podcast episode or a YouTube video. But I just know sometimes it's a gut feeling. Like I it's hard to say, but when you read through the bios, you read through the kind of work, and then you get a sense of what that person is about, it's a leap of faith. It really is. It's uh it's a gamble, however you want to put it. But when you reach out and you and you have some kind of evidence that's kind of backing up your gut feeling, saying, you know, I've I've got a feeling this person could really like this podcast, then it once you get past that, then you can start doing the work. And assuming that person accepts, right? Then you know that I you know how you know what the audience is looking for, and you know how to execute it. And it's uh it's it's a muscle, it really is. I I can't tell you that even when I told when I said something about the the outline or sort of roadmap that I provide, it has been refined. You know, it's uh it the general format, surprisingly, is the general format has been pretty much the same. But when it comes to the refinement of where you want these episodes to go, and with the new game. Guests, especially, I feel like it's uh it's such a reassuring thing for for the podcasters, you and me, to provide that direction. I also I think it's a leadership element when it comes to guests, especially. With solo episodes, you're kind of just doing your own thing. And I'm not saying that you're not leading anything. I'm just saying that you you can talk about whatever you want, right? You can say whatever you want and plan out however you want. When you're working with people, especially people who you've never even heard of in terms of from literally hearing of from the video or from a podcast episode, the responsibility that you have as a podcaster really ramps up. And now you're going back to what we were saying earlier, setting the tone, right? Setting those uh characteristics, setting the logistics. It's all on you. And and anything that happens, right or wrong, on the podcast is all on us. And uh it's uh and the guests I think teach me a lot, not just through the content. Uh I don't know if you'd like to share maybe a bit about what what the guests mean to you in terms of that connection element, but these guests I am so grateful for their time and energy because a lot of them don't have to do this, they don't have to go on a my podcast or even anyone's else's podcast, but they choose to do so. And for that, I'm I'm incredibly grateful for the time and energy that they give to share their opinion, especially with someone who they've never met in person. And I I just want to make that point about how much these guests really mean to us as podcasters.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. The guests are everything. I
Impact and Learning in Podcasting
SPEAKER_00feel so lucky that these many people from Sonoma and beyond have all said yes to this to this thing that's so special to me, uh, which is this program. And that it's it's even for for the audiences who listen to them, you know, you never really know who you're gonna inspire or who you're going to impact in one way or another. There's a great TED Talk of a guy who talks about having lollipop moments, and I won't share the whole story here, but essentially he was um one of the welcome people at a university. And during this welcome event, he made help two people become friends. And as he was retiring 30 years later, these two strangers appear at the door and said, The, you know, we were at one of your welcome events 30 years ago and now we're married. And uh he talks about how life is full of moments like those where you really never really know the impact that you have on the people because there often isn't a chance for that moment to be shared. And so I certainly feel grateful to all my guests for sharing their time with me and knowing that in one way or another, they're probably going to impact someone who listens and uh and inspire them going forward. So I think that's pretty special. So I have a question for you, Sherman. You've talked to a lot of people, you've created a lot of episodes. As of this recording, more than 120 episodes, which is pretty awesome. I think through that you've accrued some knowledge, you've accrued some wisdom. I'm wondering if you were talking over coffee or over breakfast, uh, some whatever your favorite breakfast is, with Sherman from 2020, who started the podcast. What would you tell him?
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's that is a brilliant question. Well, that's the question of the year for me. Well, first of all, it's gotta be over either classic, like American breakfast, or I I go for an English breakfast too.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Little international spicy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Well, I think what I would tell, I would tell the 2020 Sherman saying there is so much out there that one needs to learn learn about, but having guests on and having this podcast is going to be the start of many, many learning experiences about all these different topics. I you know it's not I I always try to imagine the podcast as a learning tool because not only are you getting information or you're allowing information to be broadcast uh on your show, but you also know that in line with the theme of civics and of connection and conversation, this is only the beginning of the kinds of interactions that you're gonna have. And so you know, treat I would tell the 2020 Sherman, treat every single interview episode not just as a standalone, as a okay, I've already covered this, so I'm done with this product, or I've I'm or I feel like I've talked enough about this. Every single I have I cannot tell you one episode where I'm like, okay, I feel like we've covered this enough. Like there's never, I don't think there's ever gonna be that, but where is the where is uh the podcast gonna go in terms of the progression of that conversation? And that's something I didn't really understand when I was starting, because a lot of times it's really just the hustle, right? It's like okay, you want to get through these podcast episodes or you want to get stuff out, but then when you reflect back and know, wow, there's still a lot of things that uh that I'm learning about or things I didn't know about. I had a I had a guest on it was it's the only episode I've had so far about this topic, but it was about agriculture policy. And I've never lived on a farm at ever. You know, but but now that I appreciate that topic so much, it's now a representation of how much more we can learn. And uh it it's hard to get that feeling when you first start, but after doing it for three years, and for you for doing it for about a couple years, uh but more even more than that, and that's not including the the time you've done with radio, the the I feel like the learning process becomes more real when you've done all these episodes in a way that you couldn't have done had in a way that you couldn't have had before you've had the podcast. Now it's like, okay, here are all the topics I've covered, but these are all the topics that I will continue to cover, right? Like you don't you didn't know that these topics, a lot of these topics were out there, but now that you know, now those become your lessons and those become ways that you connect with your audience, and not to mention that as you were kind of alluding to, those are those could be people you could run into in 30 years, and so it's it's surreal, it's surreal how long a process it is, but at the same time, I've I would do it all over again, and as you probably would, you know, if you were to start over, if you were to do it do again, I'm sure you would do it in a heartbeat. It's probably because of all those people who have had confidence in us to begin with. And also, I think it maybe just the way that we conduct ourselves and uh how the kinds of pillars that we put in our podcast, I think, attract those kinds of people to listen and to be a part of the show.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's pretty good advice for uh slightly younger Sherman.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I I I would be like, well, this breakfast is gonna be the longest breakfast ever. But uh, well, that's that's that's great, Francisco, honestly, to share about the the the story you told about that gentleman uh with people coming 30 years later being married. I mean, talk about an impact on people's lives. And what sort of moments do you remember? And I let's let's see what let's think of like maybe good and bad moments or moments that didn't work out for us. Like there's there's gotta be some times when you felt like, wow, this is such a cool moment. Then there are times we're like, is this really happening? Like really wish that we could have gone this way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, the first thing that comes to mind is I had one guest who I was really excited about, who, for whatever reason, just the technology was a real barrier. We started recording, the phone died, couldn't beck on the internet, the internet cut out. And so we ended up typically my recording sessions are about an hour and 15 minutes, like slightly longer than the full radio episode is gonna be, just talking about different things. This one ended up being, you know, three or four hours over three or four different occasions, um, which was wild. But I think there was there was something to be, and my guest was so apologetic, she's so kind, and she was so sorry that all the stuff was happening, and often offered to just not do the episode because it might be too complicated. But afterwards, once it was out there, it was she was so happy, and her friends were happy, and I had people come up to me and talk about how important that was to be able to hear her story. Um, because it was just learning about somebody in a new way that they hadn't had that opportunity to before. Um, so persevering in the face of those technical difficulties. I've had other people not be able to do, for whatever reason, not be able to record properly, but that was the most chaotic one. And uh it ended up being really great, and now we're good friends. Um, on the other side, because it's a local program for the most part, you know, I do interview people from other states, other countries, all over the world, but for the most part, it's a local program. So I've been able to do in-person Hello Sonoma parties, and those have been really special. I think maybe you might feel this way, but when you're in a small town, it feels like you know everybody. And when you go, you recognize the same people's faces, you see them whenever in the typical places that you go to. But
Meaningful Connections Made at Parties
SPEAKER_00these parties have been interesting because people will go and often not know anybody else except for me. And for all of the guests to feel that way is a pretty special occasion because they're all they all have those values, right? About compassion and curiosity. So they're all curious about each other and they end up making new friendships. So that was certainly a positive experience where people come away from these in-person gatherings and are able to say, Wow, you know, I'm so glad that I met this person. Uh, their story was really impactful, and uh I think we're gonna be friends now.
SPEAKER_01Thank you all so much for listening to part one. If you're enjoying this conversation, be sure to check out part two, which is linked in the show notes below.
