S6E65 | Remembering Madison (Clares) Cupps (5.24.1999 - 4.10.2026) with Kibbi Linga

Today we come together with heavy hearts but deep respect to honor the life and legacy of beloved survivor Madison Cupps, who also went by Madison Clares. Madison was a multi-generational survivor, a passionate advocate for child and animal rescue, a technology professional, and an aspiring singer-songwriter who dreamed of using her music to empower fellow survivors and create positive change.

Though Madison is no longer with us, her courage in sharing her story continues to resonate deeply. She was a survivor who lived through unfortunate events in her life—experiences that shaped her but did not define her. She spoke openly about her journey, the challenges she faced growing up in a complex family environment, and her unwavering determination to heal, seek justice, and help others. Her path was marked by profound resilience, deep faith, and a fierce commitment to protecting the vulnerable, especially children. Madison hoped her testimony would encourage other survivors to come forward, raise awareness about difficult realities many endure, and push for meaningful reforms in how systems respond to those in need.

Today, we are here to speak truth into Madison’s testimony and to honor the brave woman she was. We refuse to let her voice be silenced. Instead, we lift it up as a beacon of strength and hope. I'm honored to welcome another survivor, former podcast guest, and one of my favorite humans and friends, Kibbi Linga, who joins us to remember Madison, reflect on her impact, and shine light on the themes of survival, advocacy, and healing that we all knew through Madison. Together, we'll celebrate and share the truth about Madison’s life - through her words and ours - someone who overcame profound hardship, pursued her passions in music and technology, and worked tirelessly as a voice for the voiceless.

This episode is a tribute to Madison’s strength, her light, and the important torch she carried. We honor her by continuing the work she started - speaking truth, supporting survivors, and fighting for a world where no child has to endure what she did. Madison’s mission lives on through every voice that refuses to stay silent, every advocate who shows up, and every step we take toward justice and healing. Today, with Kibbi, we carry that torch forward and commit to finishing the fight she began with such courage.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What's up everyone? Welcome to The Imagination. I'm your host Emma, and today we come together with heavy hearts but deep respect to honor the life and legacy of beloved survivor Madison Cupps, who also went by Madison Clare's. Madison was a multi-generational survivor, a passionate advocate for child and animal rescue, a technology professional, and an aspiring singer-songwriter who dreamed of using her music to empower fellow survivors and create positive change. Though Madison is no longer with us, which is what we're going to be talking about today, her courage in sharing her story continues to resonate deeply. She was a survivor who lived through unfortunate events in her life, experiences that shaped her but did not define her. She spoke openly about her journey, the challenges she faced growing up in a complex family environment, and her unwavering determination to heal, seek justice, and help others. Her path was marked by profound resilience, deep faith, and a fierce commitment to protecting the vulnerable, especially children. Madison hoped her testimony would encourage other survivors to come forward, raise awareness about difficult realities many endure, and push for meaningful reforms and how systems respond to those in need. Today we are here to speak truth into Madison's testimony and to honor the brave woman she was. We refuse to let her voice be silenced. Instead, we lift it up as a beacon of strength and hope. I'm honored to welcome another survivor, former podcast guest, and one of my favorite humans and best friends, Kibby Linga, who joins us to remember Madison, reflect on her impact, and shine light on the themes of survival, advocacy, and healing that we all knew through Madison. Together, we'll celebrate and share the truth about Madison's life through her words and ours. Someone who overcame profound hardship, pursued her passions in music and technology, and worked tirelessly as a voice for the voiceless. This episode is a tribute to Madison's strength, her light, and the important torch she carried. We honor her by continuing the work she started, speaking truth, supporting survivors, and fighting for a world where no child has to endure what she did. Madison's mission lives on through every voice that refuses to stay silent, every advocate who shows up, and every step we take toward justice and healing. Today with Kibby, we carry that torch forward and commit to finishing the fight she began with such courage. Kibby, I'm so grateful to have you joining us today for this episode. I know Madison's story touched so many, and I know her passing has been extremely difficult. So I wanted to just start this episode by just seeing how you're holding up.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Yeah, thanks, Emma. That was a beautiful intro. Um I can't believe we're here, I guess. Um, although I did see signs with my relationship with her that could have led up to this. Like I just still like this is just so surreal to me that we're here. And um there, I there's still more for me to process that may come up in this conversation with you. But I think I appreciate I I know I really appreciate you and even myself for being here for carrying on Madison's legacy and the work that she did do and contribute to this world. Like the last thing I would want is for my friends' work to go unnoticed. So I'm I'm grateful that we're here. Although at the same time, it's surreal to me, and I really wish we weren't.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

I feel the same way. It's really important that we get together and we honor survivors who aren't here anymore. And unfortunately, this is such a regular thing in our community, whether it's directly with people that we personally know, or if it's people all around the world who, you know, for one reason or another, their lives end too soon. And it's really important that we talk about all these nuances because so many survivors, you know the the yourself how difficult it can be sometimes to get your testimony heard and to keep your accounts up online and just how much work you put into sharing and the risks that you take mentally and physically, you know, the outside world can be a really difficult place as well to, you know, be able to bear and witness what you're sharing. And I think there's always different sides to stories and to events. And there's there's certain narratives that um that some people have about Madison, you know, and then there's other ones that we personally experienced with her. And I think it's really important that all sides get shared and listened to. And I'm also really sad that we're here. I was really nervous that I wouldn't even be able to get through through that intro without um crying. And hopefully this episode we can, you know, honor her and just be able to share who she was to us and who our community knew her as. Um, and be able to just get that through and to help her work live on, you know, what she was doing was really important. And whether it was what she was doing online or just the simple ways that she touched our lives personally, um, I think it's really important that that everybody gets to know the Madison that we knew and to help her legacy live on, especially as new people are coming into the survivor community who may not have known her when she was out speaking out. So there's nobody I would have rather done this episode with than you. And before we sort of dive in, I just wanted to thank you for being such a great friend to her. I know that your friendship meant the world to her and gave her a sense of stability with somebody who could she could relate to in a world that was really harsh on her. And so I just I really appreciate you standing by her through all of that that she went through or the ups and downs, and for just being such a wonderful friend to her and her to you. I know she meant a lot to you in just the same way, but just thank you for always being there for her.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Yeah, thank you as well. I'm you were always there for her in different ways, but we were there.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

She was there for us. And one of the things I wanted to ask you, you know, it's it's always interesting how people meet, you know, especially you, Madison, we're both very public online, and there's a lot of friendships that happen behind the scenes. You might not see videos with you and Madison together or with you and other people that that you connect with, but so many of these friendships that that we make are so deep behind the scenes that never make it online, you know, the conversations and the the phone calls and the shoulders that we lean on. And so I wanted to just to talk to you about how you met Madison and what that experience was like and and how you guys even connected to begin with.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Um, well, real quick, also like when I found out, like I had thoughts going in my head, like, oh, this was a digital friend, like it couldn't, like I kind of downplayed it, minimized it a little bit. And it was just so much farther than the truth. Like a digital friend, like I after I started reflecting, I'm like, wow, this is like the friend that my inner child like always wanted. Like Madison and I shared our stories for different reasons. She shared her story to save her younger brother. I shared my story because it was a childhood dream. I knew it would help me heal, and I wanted to spread awareness. And so as a child, like I knew I was gonna share my story and I knew I would need support. And like Madison was that person. Like we went to each other about all of the turmoil and emotional discomfort that came along with sharing our stories. And I met her about six months after I started sharing my story. I had just gone to Arizona to speak on Alex Clark's podcast, which ended up not being the best experience for me. But regardless, like I get home and all of a sudden I meet Madison. And I think that was just such great timing for me because I had done that podcast and I needed the support. And it was like God just gave me that support at the right time, and I could be there for her as well. And so she reached out to me um first. And I think I have. She's still the bravest person I've ever met. I I don't think I could be as strong as she was. And it's unfortunate because a lot of people frame her as delusional or you know, this is a result of an LSD trip, and like that just hasn't been my experience with her. I've actually experienced quite the opposite. Like I've been able to connect with another friend, like on a soul level, on an understanding level, like feeling truly seen or heard and supported. And yeah, I don't know. I just I want to show how big her heart was and how she always put others first. And she loved so deeply. Like if she loved you, she loved you, and that goes to show with her brother Kyle, like she loves deeply.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Yes, and we've talked about that a little bit through our preparation for this podcast. How Madison would occasionally vent, and obviously she had a lot of reasons to share her hardships, but really Madison was always the first one to uplift. She never wanted to talk about herself, she always wanted to uplift and encourage other people, and she really cared about being a light for other people and helping other people feel seen. And one of the things that I was reflecting on in preparation for this was even during my interviews with her, even during reading introductions for her or personal conversations or prep work that we we, you know, I'd talk to her before we'd interview or before we hit record. And any compliment that you gave Madison, she was so taken aback by it, like she had never heard a compliment before. And that always really touched me how warm she was to everybody else and how humble she was as a person. She, you know, really took those things in and took them to heart and was such a grateful and loving spirit in that way. And she was completely coherent, you know, and and it's very sad to me that there are those narratives that are going around online. Um, that maybe we should talk just a little bit about, you know, some of the things that that are being said about her and like our own perspectives on how we saw her. Because for me, you know, and and I feel like anybody can look at any of the interviews that we did or her videos. I feel like you can listen to Madison. It would just take 15 to 30 seconds to see that she's very sane. She is not psychotic, she's not going into different mental illness states and uh seeming that she is unstable. She was always very together, especially, you know, saying all these really hard things and dropping these names, like very composed doing it. She was never to me somebody that came off as unstable. And I was actually very surprised when she would say, you know, I'm working on my healing, I still have a long way to go. And it's like, oh my gosh, but look how far you've come. Like you're amazing how composed you are, and like how um intellectually and and with ease and comfort, you know, talk about these really hard things. Wouldn't you say that was your experience as well?

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And and something that's coming to my mind right now is I've heard a few things like, oh, she's look at the way her music has gotten towards the end. She's loony or like crazy because of the way she expresses herself. But when I personally looked at her music and what she was posting on social media, the way I looked at it was she was expressing herself. She's been repressed for so many years. And I get it, and I respected that. I I think she wore like a lot of makeup, um, she was producing make music, and somebody could easily look at that and be like, oh, she's crazy. And um yeah, I I I always respected it because to be honest, in my personal recovery in 2020, 21-ish, I was super duper expressive. And when people would look at me, they'd be like, I think they were probably like, that girl's crazy. But I needed to go through a very expressive stage in my healing and recovery. And I don't know, I guess I just wanted to point that out. It came to my mind, but I think she was just expressing herself as she should, because that's a huge part of healing from from mind control, because mind control, we can't be ourselves, we don't have the gift of choice. So I was proud of her for that. And I I just want to say that because I think some people look at it and they're like, that's crazy, but it's like actually not expressing yourself is a beautiful, beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

100%. And one thing I want to bring up on the screen, um, just for people who maybe don't know Madison, um, I want to show the first email that I ever received from her before I podcasted with her. And just to introduce her a little bit more, um, we'll be talking about some of her story too. And and hopefully I can show some of these videos that I have that show a little bit more of who she was, and you guys can see her online. Um, but I'd like to share an email correspondence. This was how I first met Madison. Um, I don't, I forget how she found my podcast. She doesn't say that in here, and I forget what that conversation was with her and if I asked her. Um, but she had reached out to me via email, and I'm gonna add this to the stage. I think this is the right one. And this was on July 29th, 2024. And so for context, we're in May of 2026, so this was almost two years ago that I first met Madison, and she said, Hi Emma, thanks for your time. My real name is Madison Cupps. My father, Brian Cups, started Cyberslice along with Steve Green, Tim Glass, and Steve Jobs. Cyberslice was a platform they designed back in the 90s, which allowed you to order pizza online. Pizza, in quotes, was code word for little girls and so on. They used this platform to traffic children for the elites. My father sold the business to food.com when the dark web was created, it put him out of business. He lost his biggest customer, Bill Gates. He used to threaten to sell me to Hillary Clinton if I told anyone what he was doing to me. He said I was lucky that he was only assaulting me and that she would cut my vagina and turn it into a witch's nose and sacrifice me. I have reported my father for child trafficking and sexually assaulted me to the FBI. Unfortunately, due to his CIA connections, nothing has happened. He has had my witnesses assassinated, so I knew the safest thing for me to do was to go to the media. I gained some support on TikTok, but my account has been suspended and they are doing everything they can to take my voice away from me. And then I'm gonna find part two. Here's part two of the email. I am well aware of monarch programming. My father has a monarch butterfly tattoo on his right shoulder and a Freemason tattoo. My little brother is 12 years old and has not been removed from the home. I fight to raise awareness every day for him because I would like to get custody of him. I'm also a singer-songwriter and I'm working with a producer to release music that exposes my father. 100% of my royalties will go to a foundation that I will start called The Bridge, which is meant to bridge the gap between child trafficking and authorities. Since we all know the government in Hollywood is involved, I believe it's time we the people take matters into our own hands. And then it was signed by her at the bottom. And I think how Kibby was saying some testimonies can be really hard to take in because they expose names, they expose companies, they expose abuse and corruption in places that we wouldn't think to look for it ourselves. And I think initially some people could look at Madison's story if you're just getting a little clip of it or seeing some of what she was posting on TikTok, which I'll show in a little bit, um, and say, oh my goodness, this is this is incredible, you know, almost unbelievable. But when you look at all the research that she poured behind this, one of the things about Madison that I don't think people really realize, um, which again goes against some of the allegations made against her that she was in a state of psychosis or she was dealing with disabling mental illness, such as like schizophrenia. Um, Madison was a deep researcher and very thorough. And she never came online and said anything that she didn't have photo evidence for, that she didn't have an article online to show about it, that she didn't have some sort of connection that she could also post in addition to her words. And there was actually so much that she left out of her testimony online. So if you think what she was saying was a lot, um, there's so much she didn't share because she was worried that that would be too much to not have the research to back it up. And we'll show some photos and stuff that um that corroborate what she was saying, but a lot of what she says is and has been corroborated if you listen to survivor testimonies. For example, the word pizza came up in the Epstein files. I don't know how, I mean, hundreds of times, I forget how many hundreds of times, but that was proven to be something that, you know, wasn't a conspiracy. The government released evidence showing that this is a word that the quote-unquote elites use. Um, it's not just a conspiracy. The carving of the genitals or mutilation, that's something that that has happened to many survivors in these abuses, whether it was a threat or actually happened. Kathy O'Brien is an example of that. She actually had Baphomet carved into her vagina by one of her abusers, which is horrific to think about. But these are real things that these people do in these in these cult systems. So if you actually look into some of these things that she's saying, there's so much evidence corroborated around her testimony through other survivor testimonies, through through documentation that shows a clear connection that this isn't, you know, just random things that that are that are being testified. They all actually connect, and this is part of a bigger picture that actually really makes sense if you look at it. Um, and so I wanted to share that because when I read her testimony, I knew right away I could pick up certain things that I'm like, there's no way she couldn't know some of this stuff if she wasn't somebody who actually went through something, you know, even right down to Freemason and Monarch. And I have photos. I'll show you guys photos of those tattoos and um of the iconography that um she was able to capture in in photographs um showing these things. And so there's lots of correlations that her that her testimony has that historically and present day corroborates perfectly with with hundreds of other survivors. So I just wanted to add that as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

And I remember a big reason for her like sharing in the first place was because she had like hope in humanity that somebody, some lawyer, somebody could like come forward and help her. And she has a lot more evidence than me. And her story hit. Millions of people, but nobody could help her. And I I always just wonder like, how did that feel? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

And here's one of the articles that we showed in my first interview with her. So she one of her allegations is that my father started a company called Cyberslice, and Steve Jobs was a partner in the company and was actually the first person to order the pizza online through the Cyberslice website, which in 1996 this was a really big breakthrough. The internet was sort of just coming online. And you know, before that, you couldn't order pizza online. So this was, at least as far as I know, I'm pretty sure this was the very, very first company from what she said that allowed that. So here's an article shows Steve Jobs, and then here is her father, online ordering pioneer Brian Cups, ready to return to the pizza industry, as co-founder of Cyberslice Brian Cups. So she had evidence, and these articles are still online. You guys can find them. So this isn't hearsay. Um, this is true. This is part of her father's resume and Steve Jobs. So um that connection can be made simply with a little Google search. And she really did. She just like what Kibby said, you know, she was so excited to get help. She was sure with everything that she was alleging that somebody would step up and be a a witness to it and step up and want to contribute to her fight. And it was a very, very disappointing thing when she was very active going to different journalists and approaching big podcasts and creating TikToks. A lot of her TikToks actually went viral too. Madison got her account shut down so many. I don't think I know anybody that's had their account shut down as much as Madison. I know, but she really did go through a lot of effort to do outreach.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

And then after she got off the internet, her personal life was crumbling. So there's a lot to this.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Let me bring this up. So this was one of Madison's TikToks that she made, and she she was always so cute, you know, and and like I said, like well researched. Like it wasn't a lot of times like just her talking. She had very interactive videos and showed um showed her proofs. And so here's kind of like what I what I had just showed you guys, but in her own words. It was very difficult for her to do. She cared so deeply about her little brother and was so scared of him experiencing the same thing she was alleging she experienced and wanted so bad to get custody of her brother.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Mm-hmm. And the post that was just played, I mean, it's kind of hard to like read it all, but I think one of it was about witnesses that were she alleged that were assassined. And I mean, who does that? Like, who talks about that? Who who goes? I'd be afraid to do that. Um, and that was all in love with her for her brother. Exactly a hard story to believe, like it, but you know, people did believe her because she was articulate and she made sense.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Absolutely. And one of the things that she had mentioned in her email to me was her father's tattoos and affiliations with things like Freemasonry and monarch. And so I want to bring up just a couple photos that she sent. We showed these, I can't remember if it was our first or second interview. Um, but here is a photo with a monarch butterfly behind her father. And um you can sort of see he has a family crest tattoo here, and then above that, a Freemason one, and I think one of these photos. So if you look here, there's Madison and her father. And so if you look, what is that? A giant Freemason tattoo, just like she said, and she had photo evidence to back up everything that she claimed. And you'll have people say not all Freemasons are involved in bad things, and that is 100% true. However, there's a very consistent patterning with survivors of having parental figures or grandparents that are involved in Freemasonry at the highest levels, 33 degrees or above. And and by above, um, from what I understand, there actually are hidden degrees within Freemasonry, but also outside Freemasonry. Once you're a 33rd degree, you can go on to being a shriner and entering other secret societies that are considered um in the hierarchy of secret societies above Freemasonry. So her father could have been involved with other things, potentially too at that level, but at that level is where many survivors allege and testify that the corruption lies. It's not just, you know, the everyday regular dude just going to a Freemason lodge to go, you know, meet different brothers and have the social hour here and there or do good for the community. This is at the very highest level. So this is not a bash against Freemasons. This is her testimony of saying my father was a 33rd degree, you know, very corroborating um testimony to other survivors who that is this that's the same degree or higher that that the relative that abused them had. Um, here is a monarch tattoo. And one thing Madison actually didn't know when she sent me this was if you look, you can see on his opposite arm he has another Freemason tattoo here. So he actually had a Freemason tattoo on both arms, and she didn't even realize that she had just sent me this pointing out the monarch tattoo on his arm, which we know monarch and k Ultra programming. Again, kind of a weird thing. You could say, well, it's just a butterfly, and and of course it could just be that, but for one, kind of a weird thing for a man to get, and two, you know, there's tons of butterflies in the world. The fact that you know the monarch is one that was chosen, that a 33rd degree Freemason put on his body, it just it kind of goes along with what she was saying and with what we've seen with other survivor testimonies. So I just wanted to show that. And then also, if people still didn't believe for whatever reason, you know, a lot of Freemasons don't come out publicly. Um, this is actually from Brian's website where he has different things that he's been involved with, and it also says Brian is a master mason for the Masonic Order, holding a lifetime position as the historian and librarian, and was the worshipful master for the Santa Cruz San Lorenzo Masonic Lodge in oh my gosh, I can't see 2000 something. But he puts it himself, he's he has this as part of his website online that is still active. This was just taken a few days ago. So he actually states this about himself and the Master Mason, worshipful master, these are the highest levels of Freemasonry. It is exactly what Madison was testifying.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

And he doesn't even try to hide it, which I I I kind of understand because if what she's alleging is true, then like it's almost like they're fearless of getting caught.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

And speaking of that, I want to show this also. Madison sent me this um around the time I think of our first might have the date on here, but she sent this from her her father's Facebook where her father put a post, I want to be a part of the generation that ends human trafficking. Do you? And she was just so disgusted that this was on his page. And so, you know, a lot of a lot of corruption hides behind a pretty front cover that the public sees, right? And so, you know, of course, we're we're speculating and we're going off allegations, but again, that sort of fits the bill of um the front cover, you know, what people want us to see versus what's happening. And he actually was public about that too, which was interesting. While his daughter was making claims that he was trafficking her, he's posting this.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Right. And that's uh from what I've observed, a very common cover is to advocate against child trafficking, and the average eye would look at that and be like, that person would never traffic children, that person wouldn't do wrong because they're advocating, but it's just not reality. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

And so um, one of the things that Kibby and I were talking about was Madison's passion for music, and you know, that evolved during the last few years, especially in the last year, at the type of music that she was putting out. But at the time I met Madison, and I believe you as well, Kibbi, around the time that you met her, you know, Madison's dream was creating music for survivors with survivor themes where she could express and whistleblow and also give hope to survivors and create sort of themes and um anthems for survivors that that went through you know horrible abuses, like she alleged she did. The unfortunate thing is um last, I believe it was September, I got a message from Madison, and this will lead in her into her music, but she had said something along the lines of, hey, can you please take down my interviews or put them on private? I'm being doxxed and harassed, and I want my story off the internet so I can take time to heal, and you know, it's just too much for me right now. And so, of course, I did everybody that had interviewed Madison took down their content. She ended up taking down all of her content that she created herself that shared anything about her testimony, and her music was one of those things that she took off. Um, however, I was able to find an album cover of one of her, one of her Spotify albums that she had. I think it was the last one that she made before she took it off, and it was called America, Land of the Trafficked. And she was really excited about this one, and we actually did a podcast um on this and shared um, you know, kind of the meaning behind it and what she hoped it would it would give to people. And so you also see like her vulnerability in testifying through music, hoping that it would give others a voice and help others feel seen. And so just like the amount of selflessness that she had, you know, to put herself out there at the expense of herself, at the expense of knowing she could be retaliated on or bullied, and she was, you know, um, or disbelieved or discredited or targeted or have her accounts pulled down, all of that happened to her. And she still showed up online and tried to give hope to other people and you know to help save her brother. And then here was the Mary's Bridge was the organization she wanted to start and was really passionate about, which she also walked away from at that time because she, for one reason or another, whether it was stress or something else, or targeting, or whatever it was that that just really got to her, um, she stepped away from all of this. But this was something that she had sent me that I uh I loved. I thought that was really cute. Um, and then I had, is it there? No. I'll oh, I'll read this. This is really sweet. She wrote this about herself on X, um, and she took down her X account too, because it's just kind of like a volatile platform. I think she felt more comfortable on Instagram, and so she kind of kept there, but she did have an ex account for a while. But she wrote this on February 28th, 2025. She said, It takes me a while to process things. Today I just realized how remarkable it is that I released music that I wrote about overcoming child trafficking by my own father. I am my own hero and I couldn't have done it without God's help. I've been singing since I was five years old, but only started writing music two years ago. In just two years, God has helped me to write some amazing songs and grow as a singer. It's one thing for others to recognize talent and strength in you, but it's a whole other thing to recognize it in yourself. I'm going to have a website for Mary's Bridge up soon, and if you feel called to make a donation, it will go towards supporting traffic children. My prayers and goal is that Mary's Bridge will one day eventually stop the abuse that comes from foster homes. I will also be using 100% of my own royalties to support Mary's Bridge. And so I just I was these little moments where you saw her really step into her own power and like you saw those moments of confidence, like that lit me up so much because I saw the trim, the traumatized child, you know, that that she felt like she wasn't in the beginning of disclosure. And like when I met her, she was a little bit more reserved and like, like I said, so humble when you give her a compliment, she almost like couldn't accept it and would like sort of get shy and just so grateful that somebody thought these things of her. And so seeing like that milestone was just like a really special moment for me. And I remember I screenshotted that because I was like, this is so amazing that she's she's feeling the things that other people see and feel about her, that she's a hero and she's worthy and she's talented. And you know, it's we'll talk a little bit about sort of how her mental health went from there, in a sense. You can sort of see how like volatile speaking out is like the highs and lows, you have such high expectations, and then when you go month after month of like putting yourself out there and risking everything, it's not easy, it like eats eats away at you. And so I want to I want to talk about that as well. Um, I don't know if you want to show some of the messages that she had written you, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Yeah, pull up whatever I sent you, something. And on that, like I feel, I mean, I can't speak for Madison, but I just feel like a lot of it was she was giving so much. I mean, she wasn't getting paid, she was giving so much and not getting anything in return. And I also know that it was starting to affect her personal life, especially professionally, which I totally I totally understand. I use a pseudoname myself, and that was big, that was very hard for her because then people in her personal and professional life could easily look her up. And I I just wanted to say that that that was very difficult for her.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

And I'll bring up right before I bring up your messages, just to show that what what you're saying is 100% true and she felt that way. Here's a message she texted me. I asked her how she's doing. Yes, I'm okay. I'm heartbroken and so disappointed in humanity. It's hard to have hope and trust anyone. I trust you and love you. All these people tell me they can help, but I don't see any results. I feel like I risk my own life to come forward. And for what? I know there's a bigger picture to all this. I just get in these hopeless moments where I don't see it. And then she says, to be clear, I'm not suicidal if my FBI agent is reading this. LOL. But you can sort of see, like she did feel that way. She was really excited to come forward, had so much hope and like trust and humanity, and like wanted to come out kicking and screaming. She had a knowing that people would help her, and then was met with just such disappointment.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Yeah, I had many conversations with her about regretting sharing our story. Like, what for us, like or for her, like what good did it really bring? It's kind of hard to see when you're so vulnerable in front of so many people. And like, like I said, it wasn't for a job, it wasn't, it was simply a passion project, or to help give back to this world, or in her case, her brother and the world.

unknown 39:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

And here's we'll go through some of the messages that she sent you. This is the second one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Yeah, we would talk a lot about our families. Our both of our families would say that we're on LSD, we're on drugs, that's why we're having the memories that we have. Um, and I and she's right. Um she researched, like you said, and she said drugs don't cause these kind of delusions about family. I mean, like what drug, and I'm not well versed in substances or drugs, but like what drug does, like, you know, the side effect is to come up with these detailed memories about your childhood, which just so happens to match many other people who grew up in the occult or the network. Like, what drug is that? Like, I'm genuinely wondering. I don't I don't know of any substance. And um I always think like a good mental health lawyer would be beneficial in these um cases, hopefully someday soon. Um she said there's no evidence that supports that drugs cause delusions about family. And um supposedly they said that you would have to be doing LSD hundreds, if not thousands of times to have a severe, a severe case like that. And even if doing LSD hundreds or thousands of times, I mean, I don't know much about LSD at all, but like why why family delusions or childhood delusions? Why not present day like teenager, adulthood, future tripping? Like, why are we if if ritual abuse and all this child trafficking didn't happen, why are so many people collectively having like these similar memories? Um, I think there's another text. Is there a part two for this or no? Oh, well, let's just go through these. This was her talking about pizzagate, I think, um, which is something I'm not very familiar with, but I absolutely heard about it when it came out. And she said her father locked her up in an asylum and wasn't allowed out until she took her statement back. So until she said, I'm delusional or I'm the problem, then she was allowed out. So when I see her family alleging that she was so sick and stuff, like what I see is somebody telling me she wasn't allowed to leave the asylum unless she was like, I'm the problem. It's me. And um, I don't know what picture this was, but so that's I think how the original Pizzagate conspiracy theory was formed was that she was in the asylums or the mental health hospitals saying that this was happening, and then in order for her to get out, she had to say she was the problem, it it's not true, she's delusional. But because the word had spread so much, my understanding, I think it's on the next page. Like her father claims that he was part of the CIA and that her father, she alleged, um, got someone to do it for him to kind of put out that Pizzagate theory so that people would look at it and be like, oh, that's crazy. People are crazy. It's just another QAnon thing, even though it was before QAnon, I think. But like, you know, like, oh, that's just crazy. Like it was planted in society so that we people could just be like, oh, that's crazy. Um and she said, she yes, because I heard him talking about it with my mom. He thought she had told me about Hillary Clinton, and he was screaming at her, saying, 'Do you know what this will do to us?' And it just goes to show like how detailed she was, I guess, in her public allegations. Like, she didn't pull back, she didn't like she wasn't like up and down about it. It was consistent. So um she kind of explained her father's behavior. He locked himself in the bedroom the next day. Again, this was like after Madison was in the asylum or mental health facility saying that this stuff happened and then had to say that she was the problem in order to get out. So then evidently, shortly after, her father like locked himself in his bedroom and was on a work call. And then the next day all of a sudden, Pizzagate was a conspiracy theory. And he didn't want it tracked to him, so he released it because. Madison was talking about it and then locked her in a psych ward. Um, and then doctor and then her father told doctors that she was reading stuff on the internet. And I think that's a question that comes up a lot. Like, well, what about the doctors? Like, why would they just automatically side with the parents? And I think it just, I don't know, but I could assume or guess that, like, you know, maybe perhaps the parent said something to steer the doctors in a certain direction. And in this case, according to Madison, the doctor, the her father told the doctors, oh, she's reading something on the internet. That's the reason for her saying this. And as a doctor who assumably has some type of confirmation bias because they don't want to believe that what she's saying is true. I'm assuming it would be easy for them to just believe that. Like, oh yeah, she's just reading stuff on the internet. And um, yeah, it's just I so she explained Pizzagate to me a little bit. I don't totally fully understand that situation, but what I do understand is that she was put into an asylum or mental health facility, and the only way for her to get out was to say that she was the problem, that she was making it up, that she was delusional. And that's unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

It's yeah. One of the things she shared and alleged on my podcast also, and I don't have, I'll show you guys the police report in a little bit from Madison, but she had said her twin also came forward and alleged abuse as well, and was a little bit easier to sway to take back her statement. So I don't believe her sister got thrown in a psych ward, but her sister also was pressured to, from what Madison says, take back and retract her statement as well. Um, but she actually had another family member, her own twin, from Madison's allegations and from her testimony said she came forward and with Madison alongside her, and they both testified. And her sister took back her testimony and her statement, and I think Madison was more reluctant and resistant to. And that was what happened was she got thrown in an asylum until she did, um, which is extremely sad. You just hear about that over and over and over and over again in these you know testimonies, and then it's used against them later on. They can, instead of saying that you know, the parent did it to force a behavior, it's all of a sudden, well, you were in a mental home before. You remember that? Madison is crazy, you know. They use that against you later on and and they can prove it, you know, they can pull out the the statements that show that you're in an asylum and and show people and use it as blackmail against you when you know it was it was used as blackmail against the survivor who was placed in there, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Right. Like she tells us right here like the only way she could get out of the asylum was to say that she was crazy. And as a 14, 15, 16-year-old girl, I would do the same thing. 100%. And then they it's used against her for life, all the way up to her obituary.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Yes, a hundred percent. And going back to you, one of the first messages that you had read was about the LSD and Madison's research with that, and the family narrative that is alleged is that at 17 years old, Madison used LSD. And I don't know whether it was a bad trip or what happened, but they're saying it caused a psychosis one way or another, and she's never been the same since. Um, even her twin after Madison's death had said something about in her memorial post about Madison, something about I lost my sister at 17. You know, my sister died at 17 from psychosis, and that's the that's the narrative that they're saying. And so it is, it's very bizarre. I've never I've heard of so many people having bad trips, even survivors who have used psychedelics to even as a healing method, that it doesn't always go right. But again, like what person have you ever met? I've never met a single person that came out of a trip and had memories of being abused by their father and trafficked by their father.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Right, right, right, and then for it to last for years upon years, she was almost 27. That would be almost 10 years after her LSD trip. That I've never heard of that, and it's also astonishing to me how friends of the family, and I don't I don't want to judge them, I'm just simply saying it's like astonishing to me that they're so quick to believe that an LSD trip from 10 years ago caused all this.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

And if that's the case and her twin did not take LSD, how did her twin come forth with the same information? That doesn't make sense to me either. And again, I don't know if that police report, this is all allegation, but that was part of Madison's testimony, and so I it it needs to be mentioned, you know, how did that happen where both of them had the same memories if Madison was the only one in psychosis, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:35

And I we still don't know if LSD even has the capability of of doing that, like exactly, and so I'll move to this next one. I Madison had so much faith, and like that's why it was easy for me to connect to her because our solutions in life were very similar. Do the footwork, trust God, pray, but we were also very both aware of the enemy, and I personally just I feel like the enemy got to her more than 50 percent, and that's why she is where she is, but her faith is meeting her and her faith, even though the enemy enemy seemingly got her and took over, was such a gift for me. Um it was a it was a breath of fresh air. I could connect with her, relate with her very easily. Also, religious abuse was a huge part of my upbringing. I don't know if I included a screenshot in here, but Jesus and Christianity was such a trigger for me. It still is, but she introduced me to Jesus. And I can never like, I mean, that will be with me forever. That and I now have a relationship with Jesus. It may look different than other people's, but like the the fact that I was able to trust her enough, and I I'm just I'm forever grateful because what scarred me the most, she was able to give a lending hand and be there for me and just help me form a relationship with the number my number one trigger, what scarred me the most, and her faith in God is something I'll never forget, even though the enemy was able to take over in the end for whatever reason. But I her faith is just so beautiful to me.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

I always loved that too. On podcasts I did with her, she always would bring scripture and bring faith into it in God, and I think a lot of people really connected with her because of how faithful she was and how it guided her.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

This was just like the friend my inner child always wanted. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I come back from doing uh an interview, a podcast that I don't want to say I regret, but like it was very, very difficult for me. And like to see a text message, I just wanted to check in on you because the culture that Alex Clark reposted her interview with you, that was actually February of this year, so a few months ago. And yeah, I just like where'd she come from? You know what I mean? Like, she was the support I really needed after going through something like that, and I think that's how we were for each other. Like we could just support each other in these areas that probably both of our inner children like always wanted. I remember thinking as a child, who's gonna be my friend when I'm sharing, talking about my mom and all that, and she absolutely like fulfilled that role and beyond.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

So I just I was gonna say, with you both being public, people see what they see online and just assume that everything's good. It's great, you're doing all these interviews, and it just seems like it's all positive. And to have somebody witness and be able to ask you about some of the vulnerabilities that come with that, and to not just assume is it is a gift because it can be so difficult to share online, even though it looks all glitzy and glamoury when you're talking about these really hard things. That's sort of the opposite of how it feels at times. And I think it's really beautiful that you guys were able to have that empathy to see that and to check in with each other on things that you know most people in public probably wouldn't have even thought of to question.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

Right, right. And but we understood each other in that way. I mean, I I feel like both of us shared our story as a way to like mend ourselves from the past, mend ourselves from guilt that we probably both had to, like we had to do everything we could to mend ourselves, and yeah, and this was just like I think this was about a two months before she passed. She was having ups and downs, and this was one of her ups, like recognizing that like you we can have fun in life, and I think that's a journey we've both been on since sharing our story is learning now how to like build a personal life and have fun, and um so she was making progress, I feel, in some areas, obviously not all, or you know, the enemy got her in other areas, but she was making she was having starting to have fun, starting to go out with some friends and just be in the moment. And um she kind of expressed that to me a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

So and that's so amazing that she felt safe enough to share that with you because she she didn't let people onto these struggles very much. You know, I think her her passing or even the thought of her having mental health issues is shocking to people who only saw her online because she seemed so confident and you know, she didn't express a lot of the hardships that she went through and like the vulnerabilities that it created. And I'm really grateful that she had you to express that with um because I I think it fell on deaf ears for a lot of people who couldn't see between the lines that hey, nobody's helping this girl, she's doing everything she can, she's risking her life for her brother and for the sake of others who don't have a voice. And nobody's asking her how she's doing, nobody's trying to help, you know. But you were able to do that for her and to be that for her and to to be like a a pillar in so much instability that she was having. And I think that probably really helped influence her to go make these other choices that she that led to better health for her and into these moments of joy and excitement.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

Yeah, totally, and then there's this one. This was March 30th, so she passed away on April 10th. And I was talking about justice, and she said, It's okay, I understand. I'm right there with you. Not having justice is agony. I think of the quote all the time, give me justice or give me death. And I didn't really think about it much at the time, but then after I heard the news, I reread that text, and I I personally don't say that in my head all the time, but I just imagined her saying that in her head all the time, give me justice or give me death. And that sounds like a really lonely place to be, a really interesting but difficult place to be. And I don't think she was lying, you know. Like I think that's how she truly felt, and I think that she said that in her head a lot, and it makes me sad, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

I don't think people realize too that the decision to go public is almost it's a life or death. Like you're doing it, hope for a result, knowing that if the result doesn't come, there could be a severe consequence one way or another. Um, whether that's you know, your home being targeted or or you know, some losing your car, like vandala being vandalized, you know, having people come after you or target you, bullying online. Like there's just, I mean, the the list is endless, but that's that's why you all do it for a result, you know, even if that's just helping one person on the other side of the screen. And that was Madison's motive was justice, you know, not just for herself, but for her brother. And so reading that too, like it makes me just kind of sink back in my chair and consider that because I feel like that was Madison at her core. You know, she would she'd she'd rather, you know, take a bullet than watch somebody suffer. And um, she lived her life that way to put herself in a position of of being fired at to protect others.

SPEAKER_00 59:07

Yeah, absolutely. This was, I guess, now 10 days before she passed away, and she was still having breakthroughs with God. She left me a voice note, I didn't keep it, but it was something about a heartbreak that she's been struggling with for over a year, and it was just filled with spiritual triumph and awareness, and um yeah, I I guess I show that because she I believe she had faith until she passed. I just feel like the enemy got the bigger part of her, and you know, she stopped sharing her story in 2025. She reached out to you in September of 2025, and she lost her job in D like around Christmas. And I would say like the beginning of this year, so for the past five months-ish, she has been expressing really depressed thoughts, suicidal thoughts, um, losing hope comp thoughts, and but her faith was still there. So it it gives me some sense of comfort that I strongly believe that she passed with faith. But I'm also like, I'm not gonna lie, like I personally saw the signs, and whether she was programmed to do something like that, I don't know. But like I slowly, I personally saw the signs, I didn't think it would happen. Um, and we would discuss it every time the the thought came up and you know, end with it not being a good idea, but it's heartbreaking to reflect back and to see the signs, but it's also heartwarming to know that she never lost faith because even when she would express her depression or her thoughts, there was never a phone call that I had with her that she didn't mention God or faith or Jesus or you know, but I just think the enemy got a hold of her to a point where the pain was too much.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

And I want to just mention and expand on a part that you brought up of possibly being programmed. Um, Madison has alluded to going through more of a systematic and organized type of abuse system, but because she didn't have a lot of memories, this wasn't a focus of what she talked about on interviews. She talked about what was familiar to her, what she had remembered. And for those of you who listen to Survivor Testimonies, that usually begins in the family with incest, and then to some of the, and I hate like ranking abuses because it's all just so horrific, but with some of the more localized things, and um it's sort of the memories sort of come in layers, and Madison had really remembered a lot about um and testified allegations of incest and trafficking, and she sort of stuck with that, even though she has alluded in interviews that um one of the things she testified in my first or second interview with her was she remembered a hypnotist coming over, but she doesn't remember what happened. Um, and throughout this, she had mentioned to me um many times that she had little bits and pieces of other memories she wasn't comfortable talking about that seemed more extreme and along the lines of different abuses that uh mind control and um RamCoa survivors go through. But because she didn't have the full memory, she didn't have the research, she didn't have the receipts like she did a lot of this other stuff, she did not talk about that. So, unfortunately, so much of what she went through also went to the grave with her, which breaks my heart. You know, this happens so much to survivors. Like I wish, I wish somebody knew just that she was able to be witnessed by somebody. I don't know if she ever was. I hope she maybe had somebody that she was able to like talk talk about some of that darker stuff with, but she did mention it to me. And um going back to being programmed, um, one of the things that I try to talk about a lot on this podcast is self-harm or self-deletion programming, which a lot of survivors have, and um, if they're not aware of it, can be activated to self-harm. And so again, there's we we may never fully know what happened in this event, you know, but there's a lot of different things that could have happened, and that that has crossed my mind also. Um, if there was a chance she could have been triggered through her programming, you know, that she didn't fully have the awareness of at the at that time yet. Um, but either way, you know, whether it was programming or whether it was through the trauma that she remembered and was fully conscious of, you know, seeing sort of that spiral, like it's so sad to think, you know, reading some of those messages earlier about how proud of herself she was, you just see how the battle, no matter how confident somebody seems online, the battle is always being fought in the background, you know, and and sometimes the the darkness is very consuming. Um, and so I'm I'm grateful she had you to express that to Kibbi, because I'm sure you know it takes a lot to share that with somebody. And I know she didn't talk about that online, she probably didn't express that to many people, but it probably in some way helped helped her cope with things, knowing that she could at least express and not be judged by telling you those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:37

Yeah, and I think from everything I know about Madison and everything she's alleged, I'm not one to believe that she committed suicide because she had did an LSD trip 10 years ago and then had delusions about her family. And then those delusions made her really depressed, so she committed suicide. I'm not one to believe that. Whether it be her just being really depressed and then it happening that way or something more sophisticated. Like I've heard of a few names like frequency. I don't know. Like there's different, like what you're talking about where they program survivors to slowly get in the state of mind of committing suicide, or even like an even more gray area. Like to me, she was seemingly based off of what she said, very scapegoated. Like, you're the problem, it's your fault, you're the problem, it's you're the problem. And hearing that enough and enough, if I was scapegoated myself, like, yeah, I'm not surprised suicidal or depressive thoughts emerged from that because it's exhausting when people project their own stuff on to you. So I it could be any of the above, but I think the bottom line for me at least is like, I don't believe that an LSD trip from 10 years ago is what made her make this decision.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:08

100%. And you know, I think one of the things to contemplate too, whether you believe Madison's testimony or not, I think there needs to also be the conversation of how would a healthy parent deal with a daughter that had a if this is true and Madison had a psychotic break, throwing your daughter into an asylum to get her to take back a confession, if it's just a delusion, how is how is that a healthy way to deal with a daughter going through the hardest time of her life or going online and saying she's a schizophrenic and abandoning her and not talking to her and kicking her out of the family? Like what kind of a parent does that? So whether or not you believe Madison, I think that you know, we have to also look at the behaviors of everybody and think about how could somebody do that if they're the healthy ones and they're the ones that are, you know, on the right side and and they have all the right information. You know, if I had a daughter, which I don't, like I couldn't imagine if she was schizophrenic or having a psychotic break to just leave her suffering or to throw her in in asylum, you know, that like breaks my heart. You know, it seems like there was unhealthy behavior from um the people also who are making the allegations against Madison, you know, and uh we'll see, we'll look at her obituary soon. Um, but there was very strong opinions too on Madison support online, um, contributing to her delusions. Um and that is something that that the family is saying also that it's us that's to blame, people like Kibby and I who actually got to know her and embraced her and listened to her and witnessed her, you know, we were there for her in a healthy way and let her be who she was and didn't call her schizophrenic and didn't think that of her. Like that would have never even crossed my mind that Madison would be any of those things. Um, but it's also really sad how if if what the other side is saying is true, you know, she was treated horribly in her worst, in her worst time and in a breakdown of of psychosis and schizophrenia, she was completely abandoned by her family for that, which is really sad also, you know, if what they're saying is true. But I think my own opinion, Madison was was one of the most articulate, brilliant, smart, researched, and um careful people I had ever met with how she chose to share her testimony. And she, like I said, never said anything she she couldn't be sure of or show something of. And she was very sound in everything that she said. There was never a moment of, oh my gosh, this girl sounds psychotic, or she seems like she's going through a mental, uh a disabling mental disorder right now, you know. And I think if anybody listens to her, they would feel the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:13

Mm-hmm. Totally. And um, I know after reading the obituary that you'll bring up soon, I my first reaction was like, if like what you were saying, like if I had a daughter in the same circumstance, like I personally would not be on the internet creating a narrative or managing a narrative. I would be in therapy seven days a week asking, where did I go wrong? Like, what did I do? What could I have done better? What happened? Like, I would want to get my unanswered questions um answered. That's just me. And and another thing about um her death and reading the obituary and seeing the way her family is acting about it and responding to it, and then seeing the people in her family's life respond to it. And this is kind of like out, I'm steering a little bit, but it made me realize that when it comes to this deep controversial issue of ritual abuse, child trafficking, and everything that's on your podcast, like there's two types of people generally. Like the type that believes this and knows that this goes on, and then there's a type that points a finger at all of us and says that we're crazy, we're delusional. And I don't know, like if I I think the way I stand, at least for myself, is the way I look at it is like the other side that like believes, like that that doesn't believe this kind of stuff. Like to me, it's like they're just in denial and it's it's eye-opening to me. It's like we're like kind of at a spiritual war, I feel like, because there's two sides that swear that they're true, and the other is basically delusional or crazy. Um, and it's like a spiritual war. Although I would like to argue that I think a lot of times the side we're on, we're called delusional or crazy. And at least for me, I I like to say that the other side is just the side that I'm not on. I don't want to say they're delusional or crazy, but I do believe they're in denial. But I also believe denial is a form of insanity. But to keep it simple, it just her passing has shown me how much of a spiritual war we are in collectively.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:44

And from my own perspective, being somebody who has dealt with many family members, reach out on behalf of survivors that testify on my podcast because family do not want somebody in the family alleging them of abuse. Um, I have I go through this so much, I don't broadcast it online, but um, I will say, very, very consistent. I don't think I've had one time in all six years I've podcasted the dozens and dozens of family members that have reached out to me trying to dissuade me from believing the survivor on my podcast. It is always schizophrenia and psychosis, always, and drugs and bipolar. It's always those four things that they blame the survivor for um for having. And so it's also, you know, a pattern in my mind of, you know, this seems very playbooky that Madison just happened to also have schizophrenia and have a psychotic break and be on drugs, you know, because that's what every other parent alleges the same thing of how their child is coming up with ritual abuse allegations. It's never that maybe it's true or maybe they actually did go through abuse, it's always blamed on a mental disorder or on drugs. And so I I think that's really interesting too that you know we know God can create and Satan copies. And so to me, again, going back to the spiritual war, you know, and you said it yourself and some of the things that we've been looking at, the devils and the details, you know, and I see that often in patterns that I can pick out through doing this, that maybe somebody who's only dealt with it once might not see. But when you've come across the same things dozens and dozens of times, you pick up on these little details that actually add up to a lot and say a lot more, you know, and meets the eye. So I just thought that's interesting and I wanted to share that too.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:44

Yeah, over-explaining yourself is a sign of trauma, a sign of covering guilt, at least from what I've learned. Um, and when I saw that obituary, it why so much? Why is this a tiny novel? Um like, and it wasn't, yeah, we'll we'll get there.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:07

And I'm gonna I'm gonna bring that up in just a minute. One thing I did, I wanted to show this side of Madison that cared about her brother. She made lots of videos about Kyle, and um, this was the only one that I could find online, but she did advocate for him so fiercely, and so I wanted to just play this video that she am I able to see if I can.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:33

In the home. He lives in a Kyle Trafficker's home. My parents, Autumn and Brian Cupps. His name is Kyle Cup. He's 13 years old, he was being groomed on TikTok when I left to dance in his underwear. My dad was also grooming him to be a pedo, drugging me, assaulting me in front of him, and then saying when I woke up, saying that it was aliens that did that to me, that turned my underwear on inside out. Um I had to peed myself that my underwear was on inside out. He was 21 years old. He says it was alien, my father said this to me. Does the same thing to my twin sister who still does? She actually came forward first in 2013 and said he had assaulted us as kids at the age of four to seven years old. So this kid is not safe in his home. He will never be safe in his home. We need to save Kyle, save Kyle because he's 13 years old, he lives in Las Vegas. I have been working my ass off for the last three and a half years to get custody of him. And I even made a police report three and a half years ago. Of course, nothing happened. Even now that I have evidence that nothing has happened. Save Kyle. I'm calling.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:49

And so I want to show, let me pause this. I want to show the police report also. And you heard Madison say there exactly what I was saying earlier about um her own sister testifying um with her. And so I'm gonna look real quick for this, but you can see the passion, like she was so urgent to help her brother. It was her driving force, it kept her up at night. It was so consuming for her to contend that he could be getting abuse in any type of way, even if it wasn't the same as her, just being around people that she was terrified of. It ate her away. It was a genuine reaction, it was not schizophrenia or psychosis, it was a trauma response that she was having that was eating her alive.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:42

Um, yeah, because could you imagine? She she leaves her house for three and a half years, she's healing, like she's spending all this three and a half years just focusing on healing because I don't think she wanted to share her story before that, which is smart. And then she shares her story, fighting her ass off, and nobody steps up to help, or it just doesn't bring her justice. Like I'd be depressed too, and then lose my job, and then you know, have people in personal life being able to see this online. Like, that's a lot, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:21

100%. And I'm gonna blink bring up the police report in just a second. I want to bring this up. She had actually made okay. Here we go. Madison had actually made extensive lists. I actually have a couple of those, but I wanted to show. So this is one of her tweets. It's actually amazing to me that you guys continue to cry about the deep state when I've literally given you names like the Clintons, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, McDonald's, Apple, De Como, Kraft, Warner Brothers, who were all complicit in the child trafficking blackmail ring with food.com. The Warner Brothers, aka Warner Music, is the handler to many celebrities. My father, Brian Cups, was co-founder and claims to be CIA, but you guys will never admit that the CIA Massad is responsible for this, blah, blah, blah. Um, but she would make she called out every single name possible that that she was able to tie into this and like always brought the receipts to it. Um, but she had like so many big names and big companies that surrounded this ring that she was whistleblowing, and it it was very, very shocking. You know, the of course we believed her, um, but to have somebody come out and say all these names was, I mean, really amazing. Most survivors don't ever don't ever say a name, you know. And it's like how you said, like, give me justice or give me death. Like Madison was just no holds bar, like I'm going for this, you know, I'm saying everything. I don't care. I need my brother to be to be safe. Um, but she did, she she named everything. She had extensive lists that she was posting on X of every single celebrity, politician, company involved with this, um, and had receipts for all of it, which was incredible. Incredibly, incredibly brave.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:06

Yeah, and that's what that's her bravery that I it just makes her the bravest person I know. Her bravery I would never be able, I could I couldn't couldn't even name my mom's name, although that was basically to protect myself. But I if I was involved or remembered memories with the elites and stuff, like I could not do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:31

And people will say, like, you know, if that's the case, like, and she's saying all of this, like she's gonna get sued. Madison wanted to be sued. I don't know if like people know that. Like, she made videos, like she wanted her parents to take her to court, she was like begging to go to court. That doesn't happen with somebody who's just like making stuff up or like not serious about it, you know. Like, she she wanted that was like what she wanted. She wanted to go to court so she could get her custody of her brother. And so, like, she was she was incredibly brave for saying all this stuff, knowing she would be met with adversity, knowing that people wouldn't want to believe it, knowing that she was naming names and and people that were extra in companies that were extremely high in society, not just like little, you know, unknown businesses or people, these are like you know, top of the top of a lot of different um institutions and in society, and she did it all, she did not hold back whatsoever. And I will always commend her for that. I was so in awe of her doing that, you know, knowing the danger of that it was putting her in.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:38

Yeah, and that goes back to show how like deeply she loved, yeah, like she didn't do that for attention, she didn't do that to help her healing, she didn't do it for money, she did it because she loved her brother. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:53

And so I'm gonna bring up her police report. We'll go through this and then we'll bring up her obituary and leap through that. Um, but she had filed a police report to the IC3 and had the receipts from it. She showed the unredacted version on my podcast and many podcasts, and even on her um own social media. But for respect for her siblings and things like that, I I took it upon myself to just redact some of the information on here. Um, but I'll read through just the disclosure part that she shared. Um, because she, like I said, she has receipts, everything she said she did. She has a receipt for. So her complaint was from the age of four to seven years old, me and my twin sister were repeatedly molested by my father, Brian Cups, at our home in California. He would force me and my twin sister to have sex with each other and to kiss each other. He allowed his business partners to touch us too. He would record us on a video camera and sold child pornography online. My mother found child pornography on his computer, but did nothing about it. She told her best friend at the time, who later told me about it. Brian Cupps claims that he worked for the CIA as an assassin, and that's why he had to look at child porn. He tells my whole family this, including my sisters. They are the only family to believe him and work to protect him. And so she did. She filed this and she had the receipt for it, um, which again is pretty incredible. And there wasn't really anything, um, no disclosures written on this, but she wrote witnesses and other victims and submitted it. Um, she she wrote her dad's name and put his address that he was residing at at the time. Um, this was to the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department that she filed this one to. And then this one here was to the Internet Crime Complaint Center, um, the IC3, like how I was saying. But she documented everything and made sure that she didn't talk about anything unless she could prove that she actually did something or researched it and wasn't just saying it from her own memory, which was again very, very brave of her to show actual documentation and to share some of these like vulnerable things that she was doing. A lot of survivors don't have documentation, and if they do, it can be very private and also very vulnerable to share these things. And Madison, again, it was she was just all in with her disclosure, and so should we bring the obituary up and go through that?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:39

Yeah, why not?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:44

Man, this this one really upset me.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:48

Um, yeah, and and honestly, like I didn't see an obituary until the internet found out, which makes me wonder why what was the motive for writing it? Like, why wasn't it done earlier? Was it to control a narrative? Like, and then also her family said there's not gonna be a memorial for her, or her sister did in a Facebook post because they thought it would be performative, but now in the obituary, they're like, Oh, yeah, we're gonna have a memorial. Okay, when where where and when? Because I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:24

Um, and I could go back on the homepage for this, but one of the interesting things I noticed was there's kind of a homepage for this funeral home with obituaries listed, and every photo is of somebody, it's like a beautiful headshot of them, like their best photo. Yeah, yeah. And not that Madison wasn't fun and that this doesn't capture her personality, but like as a final photo for like everybody else to see, like that is not the photo I would have personally I saw and had like so many beautiful photos of Madison that like I I love and cherish that I have and that I've seen. And like this one's really fun and it's cute, and like it expresses their personality, but to me, and as you'll see, kind of like as we read through this, it sort of just seems like another way to gaslight the narrative of like Madison's just this psychotic schizo who does drugs, and like, look at look at my daughter, you know. Like, this is the best picture we have of her, and like that kind of upset me seeing that. Did you feel that way too?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:25

Yeah, I wanted to see a picture of her smiling. Like, well, I don't know, I I don't understand it. It was it was just to me, I'm like, I don't understand this. Like, why this picture?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:37

Right. Of all the, and she even her sister, you know, on Facebook had posted like a ton of really cute and beautiful photos of like her and Madison together, you know. And and even though I didn't like the post that she wrote, like the photos she had accompanied with it were very touching, and like I was shocked that of all the photos that they have of of all these kids, this is the one that they chose for Madison. I yeah, it just made me really sad. Um, do you should we read through this whole thing? Do you want to read it or do you want me to read it?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:16

Um, yeah, I'll start. I it might be a breather, it might be like five pages, not like let me look. Okay, it's not I think we can handle it, yeah. Yeah, okay. Uh Madison Taylor Cops 26 passed away on April 10th, uh, 2026 in a residence in Reno, Nevada. She was born in on May 24th, 1999, um, in California to Autumn and Bryan. Madison entered the world as a preemie with twin to twin transfusion syndrome, a fighter from her very first breath, a spirit that stayed with her throughout her short life. Madison, nicknamed Madison Shine and Sunny, grew up in Santa Cruz, California, where her love for the beach and redwoods took root and made her a vibrant free spirit, as well as gave her a deep appreciation for nature. A true creative soul, Madison found joy in art, writing, hula hooping, cooking, and music. She loved to sing and aspired to have a career in music influenced by her favorites, Lana Del Rey, Chapel Roan, and 21 Pilots. She released several songs under the stage name Madison Claire's that will live on to immortalize her. She was also an incredibly talented artist with a passion that extended into the world of tattoos. She proudly wore many tattoos, including a few she regretted and was in the process of removing, and she considered becoming a tattoo artist. Madison had an impressive green thumb and could ironically bring anything to life. She loved iced coffee, elephants, memes, fashion, the show The Office, and making people laugh. She had a witty and dark sense of humor, a beautiful smile, and a contagious laugh. And I just want to stop. And I just like my opinion on this is like that's very beautiful. Like that is like honoring Madison and who she was as a person. But then it was to me a little bit too much for an obituary. Like, what is this leading up to? Is kind of like how I was feeling like while reading it. Like, yes, this is beautiful, but like the obituaries I've seen like do honor in that way, but not to that detail. So like I remember the first time I read it, I was like, so what is this leading up to? Like, what is next? And so I'll just continue. From an early age, Madison displayed an uncommon intellect and an enduring love for the game of chess. Madison's parents loved to recount the story of when Madison played chess with her kindergarten teacher for the first time and beat him. He was dumbfounded because he had been on the chess team in college and she was five years old. In second and third grade class grade, she was afforded the incredible opportunity to be trained by a chess master. So she was very intelligent, like no questions asked. Um, Madison, and here's where things got a little bit uncomfortable for me. Madison had a strong faith in God from the time she was a small child, although she did not attend a specific church. She was baptized at a church in Reno, Nevada in 2023. She was a member of Jobs Daughters in Santa Cruz when she was a child. Madison was a lesbian and proud member of the LGBTQ community and had dreams of becoming a wife and mother in her future. She adored her family, especially her little brother Kyle and his big squeeze hugs. She shared a special bond with her black cat, Obsidian, who brought her comfort and companionship. And there, um, I just personally wonder why bring up her sexuality in an obituary. I haven't seen that before. Um typically, Madison made some bad decisions when she was a young teenager, and they would prove to be irreversible. And that's where I'm like, where's the proof? But um she suffered from a drug-induced psychotic break when she was 17. And though her doctor said that Madison said the Madison everyone knew and loved would be gone, she was a fighter and the medications worked. Unfortunately, Madison did not like the side effects of the antipsychotic medications and refused to take them or try a different one. She spiraled into mania, schizophrenia, and no. I think that's an illness where you don't, I can't say it, but I think that's one where you don't think anything's wrong with you. Yes. And she never recovered, which devastatingly resulted in her taking her own life. The truth is that mental illness murdered Madison. That stood out to me because why go out of your way to tell us the truth if the truth is obvious? And so to me, I'm like, I don't know if that's really the full truth. And then her family does not want to sugarcoat the tragedy and is hoping that every one person can be spared or make different choices due to her life's cautionary tale. At the end, and and this is like to me, I'm like, is this a tribute? Is this honoring Madison's life or is this warning other? Like it's kind of for me, steering away from the purpose of an obituary, which is to honor somebody's life. Now it's becoming a a warning for other people, like she's helping people by this uh by being a cautionary tale. It just the math isn't mathing for me. Um, and then to go on at the end, Madison only had a few close friends who are genuine and an unfortunate internet following who validated her delusions and wouldn't help her get help as they tried to capitalize on her sickness and now her death. She's so I guess we're delusional, Emma, too. And um, she severed ties with most of the people who cared about her and knew her in real life, her family, her friends, and co-workers. I don't know, she didn't sever a tie with me. No, me neither. Um, part of me, like, if they did have a memorial, I wonder, like, you know, if us who if some of us would show up to Las Vegas and if her family is afraid of that. Like, I don't know. My mind is just wandering at this point. I'll gone. Madison is survived by her parents, Brian and Autumn, her twin sister, and her two brothers, including Kyle, and then two other sisters, three other sisters. She was survived by her grandparents. This part of the obituary seems normal to me. Um, you know, just who she was survived by. And then Maddison's family is crushed and heartbroken, but realize God answered the their prayers for her remarkable mind to be restored. And this, as a religious abuse survivor, it just got under my skin a little bit. Like, oh, now we're bringing spirituality into the narrative. And her death is an answered prayer from God, really. Um, just not the way they thought. As Madison is home and whole with Jesus in a glorified body with a renewed soul. Not that God caused her death, but that he uses for good what was meant for evil. And it's like she could have been restored on planet Earth if she wasn't betrayed and people believed her and people helped her. She didn't have to pass away for that. And so it was a little irking to me and got under my skin to bring the spiritual rationalization into her passing. And that's just very familiar to me as well, to bring spiritual or religious rationalization into someone, someone's unfortunate events, in this case, her passing. And then her Madison's earthly body has been cremated, and a celebration of life will be held at a later time. So after all that, we get no specifics on her memorial, um, which was previously said would not happen. So I'm a little confused by that, but her family would like to thank Sonoma Funeral Home for taking care of her and are especially grateful to the Armstrong family for their incredible generosity and support. If you would like to contribute to Madison's funeral home expenses, you may Venmo. So in in here, they're asking for money, and I don't know much about cremate cremation, but I do understand that it's relative, it's not like a super big charge. And I don't see them getting a big gravestone for her. So I I I don't know how much it this is costing for them, but the audacity to ask for money while pointing fingers at other people for capitalizing on her is just another thing that cost in my it crossed my mind. Rest easy, Madison. You are forever loved. After reading all that, like it's hard for me to believe that last sentence that you know they really did love her.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:14

Oh I like this makes me want to cry so much. Like it is so horrible how they wrote this, like it just does not do her justice that that's like what they wanted people to remember her by, you know, like she was just amazing, and trying to glorify her by saying her death was like a blessing in disguise and can be used to save lives. You know, like that to me is like a satanic inversion. That's like what I get from that's like what some of the families will tell me is that like Satan is using me to do bad for like helping survivors, you know, and it's like he is that's interesting because in my opinion, abusing a child is pretty satanic. I don't think letting a child who grows into an adult speak about their abuse is satanic, but okay. You know, it's like they use like these weird inversions where like it almost sounds normal to read, but whenever you actually like read it over a few times, like there's something very wrong with it. And I felt this way reading reading this, you know, in so many ways. And like I couldn't sleep a whole night. I would like the night that I read this at night, I saw it at night late, and I was like, oh look, and it started off like pretty good. So I was reading it and I was and I started to question it. I'm like, that's weird. Like they have all these weird narratives online, but they're saying all these really nice things about her, and I was like kind of on edge, but I was like happy that they put some of that stuff at the beginning because I felt the same way. I looked at the photo that they put and I was like, that's a weird photo for an obituary, but like okay, maybe they just want to share like a fun side of Madison and like they're gonna be nice about her finally. And once it got down to these like these other paragraphs that you just read for us, I just could not believe that, like you said, like this is how long did that just take us to read this whole thing? Like, I've never seen an obituary like this before. And I looked at some of the others on the site just because they have a ton of obituaries, and most of them are just like maybe as long as like this part right here. Just like a few sentences, like really honoring them, talking about you know, the type of person they were. They're gonna be remembered in their community, they were involved with this, this, and this. They're you know, they're um they're survived by these people, they're gonna have a funeral here, you know. I couldn't believe like the detail that they put into this was like, like you said, this does not feel right, it seems overcommunicated. And why would they do that for a psychotic daughter that apparently cut them off? You know, and if if if we're the delusional ones supporting her and they're the sane ones that loved her, where were they to help her? Why is she gone? If we're the ones responsible, why did they where were they? Like, if they're the ones close to her, shouldn't they have been the ones to be able to help? Like, I just have so many questions reading this that just make me so like emotional and sad.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:27

Like, like we said, that the devil is in the details, and I remember when you sent me this in text, I was with friends, and I'm like, Oh, an obituary, I can step aside because it won't be that long, it'll be respectful, and I can handle this. I step aside and I'm like, What is this? Had to read it the next morning, and I remember talking to you, my mouth was just dropped open. Like, what is this? And um I I kind of like researched it a little bit from a behavioral science standpoint. Let me see if there's yeah, let's talk about some of that. I think overall, like, yeah, go on.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:12

No, just saying, I'd love to share a little bit about that because you had sent me a few things that you um had researched, and I was like, wow, that makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:22

Yeah. Um I found is the the quote mental illness murdered her. According to behavioral science, this shifts the cause away from a relationship's environment or context and places it entirely on illness. In psychology or behavioral science, it's called external attribution. It can reduce feelings of responsibility or complexity, which makes sense. And then there was narrative control, it prevent presents a very structured storyline, which I've never seen in an obituary. I want to see it when I look at obituaries, like I often want, I want the whole story, but they never give it in obituaries in respect for the deceased. But in this obituary, that like there was narrative control with the structured timeline, early life, turning point, decline, outcome, labels like schizophrenia, her believing nothing's wrong with her, etc. And this can be a way people try to make some sense of something chaotic by creating a uh a clear controlled narrative. And I'm, you know, I don't necessarily think that her family is walking around their days and they know that everything happened that Madison has alleged. If what Madison has alleged is true, I believe her family is in denial and they genuinely believe that it didn't happen because I also believe the quote that all evil believes that they're doing good. And so, like it would, you know, if they are in denial and her allegations are true, it would make sense that they want to control the narrative without them actually being self-aware that this really did happen, what she's alleging, if it did happen. And then the moral frame framing and cautionary tale, like the obituary explicitly explicitly says that her story is meant to warn others rather than honor her, and it shifts the obituary to more of a tribute to a lesson, which can feel like impersonal or reductive. It's not for Madison, it's for narrative control, is my understanding, and then in like framing people from in-group and out-group, like the people from the internet or out-group, but kind of like using that as a weapon by saying the real people cared about her, the people that knew her in real life, and like just basically dismissing the existence of the people that knew her digitally or online, and it and according to this, it creates a clear divide of who is right versus wrong, which can protect a family's perspective. And and there's uh a lot more, unfortunately. Behavioral science is a very, very interesting thing to me when it comes to these types of families and the way they behave. I've seen it with my family, I clearly see it. This is just my opinion about her family and the way that they're acting after her passing.

unknown 1:44:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:56

One of the things that I'm experiencing now that I have been sharing, because here's the thing like when Madison passed, nobody knew. Kibby texted me and was like, Hey, have you heard from Madison? Like, I'm super worried, you know, I'm did something happen. We're looking online, and then we Kibby ended up finding a disclosure from a family member that she had indeed passed. But that was it. It was a Facebook post, and there wasn't an obituary out at out at the time. And again, this is May 2nd.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:32

Two weeks after.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:33

Two weeks after. This is May 1st today that Kibbi and I yes, Kibby and I are recording today on May 2nd. She passed on April 10th, and it took two weeks. We like just found out like a week, a week and a half ago about this. I'd have to go look at when we were texting, but and then the obituary came out after Kibby and I started talking online. Kibby made a really nice post on Instagram about Madison. I still have yet to make one on there. I've had um I've had more emotional like expressiveness to be able to go on Twitter with how it's laid out as venting and sort of like expressing on Twitter because that's been like a way for me that hasn't been overwhelming to figure out how to do it. But one of the things that is happening to me is I've discovered her mother has a Twitter account, and one of the interesting things that she's doing is she's coming onto my post and saying, You didn't know Madison in real life. And I sent her messages, like, yes, I did. Like she I knew her personally. I've interviewed her, I've talked with her, and she put unquote, you didn't know her in quote unquote real life. You didn't know her before her psychosis. That those these are the messages that her family is telling me. So whenever you just said that, I was like, that is so true. They're dividing. I didn't, I can't know Madison like how they did, because I never physically stood in front of her, looked her in the eye, and had a conversation with her. Anyone who does that, even if it's just at the grocery store, hey, how are you doing? Great. That person supposedly knows Madison better than I do, even though I've spent hours and hours with her. I know a lot about her life, you as well, Kibby. But we don't know her as well as somebody who physically stands in front of her. Like we are pushed to the side and supporting her delusions.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:25

Right. But the reality is we're all on earth, and as long as we're on earth, we know her in real life.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:32

Yes, a hundred percent. But I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting. And then um one of the messages she had written me is blaming me if I didn't, I if it's because of people like me why she's not here because I didn't try to get her help. Instead, I'm spreading misinformation, and it's like, oh, I'm it's my fault, you know, that this occurred. There's no responsibility anywhere else. It's just me and the other people who actually supported her and were there for her. We didn't get her the help that she needed, we supported her going through the hardest time of her life, and it's our fault. It's just really wild, like go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:15

It is wild. It's like, could you imagine somebody, whether it be a job, which my this is a passion project for you, is my understanding, but whether it be a passion project or a job, could you imagine somebody putting in so much of their heart and their effort and their time into helping people feed their delusions? Like, I haven't even heard of that. Like, like that is I haven't heard of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:46

I haven't either. And then to think, you know, when somebody's going through a really hard time, like I couldn't imagine again, if I had a daughter who was going through a hard time and met somebody like you, Kibby, who was there for her, delusional or not, was there for her to listen to her, to witness her, to let her vent, to be a sounding board for her, to be somebody she could call. Regardless of the outcome of what happened to my daughter, whether she got through her hard time or didn't. I could never imagine treating a person who was there for them in their time of need, like how we're being treated. That, oh, you're just an internet person. Like you should have got her help. I would be like thanking you, like, thank you so much for being there for my daughter. She quote unquote had schizophrenia and like needed, she needed somebody and you were there for her. Like, thank you. You know, like again, if if what her parents are saying is true, you know, like I couldn't imagine somebody going through a mental illness in their eyes from what they're saying, they believe, and then opposing the people who stepped up to be there for them while they were going through that hard time.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:57

Right. Like, if I had a daughter who Had let's just give her mom the benefit of the doubt, too. Like, if if I had a daughter who took LSD and then came up with all these allegations that I did all this crazy stuff, and then eventually my daughter committed suicide, I wouldn't be writing an obituary like that. I would be grieving. I would I just I don't understand. Like I would have questions that I would want answered, I would need support, I would not be behind a keyboard fighting people and overexplaining myself in an obituary. That's just me though. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:47

I think a lot of people who have stuck with us through this episode will relate to that. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing. And Madison wasn't my daughter, but she she was somebody I loved and cared about, you know, and I could never if she if I personally had known her to actually be suffering a mental disorder, I could never go online and make make a victim story about myself being a again, like a victim towards what she went through, and that it's a blessing that she's not here in any type of way, and that that can be used for good. Like it is a tragedy, and like I just can't, I'm having trouble. Like, you know, they say walk a mile on people's shoes, and like I really try to do that, but I just there's not a single situation where if somebody isn't here anymore that I would be that I would feel comfortable saying those things about them after they're gone, you know, it's just so sad. Like I wouldn't even I I couldn't even like say that about somebody that I don't like. Like to black like you honor people and like you want people to see the good that you saw. And I just can't relate to like those paragraphs that you read about her that just sounded made her seem like such a unstable, not with it, and like you know, a person that didn't deserve to be here, basically, that it's better off this way. Like, that's really how that message felt is like thank goodness she's in the loving hands of God and her mind is whole.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:23

You know, it just it like hits me in the heart, and it's you know, it's very unfortunate, like how much and how often this type of behavior happens in these situations with you know, abuse victims going through either a death or a uh a disclosure about the family that they you know are were born into. But it's it's just very common, these just same responses that just don't feel right, you know, and I just I can't make sense of it. It's like it really hurts me. I'd love to like, you know, I'd love to get perspective on what other people think. And I know like we're sharing some opinions, but like ultimately we that was what we wanted to do was like share our heart and what we know of Madison and like where we're at with it, but we also showed tons of evidence through Madison and what she has shared. We've shared text messages, her videos online, we've shared her music aspirations, her disclosures, her police reports, things that she was posting online, photo evidence of the of things she has said in her testimony. You know, like we tried to keep this this episode true to who Madison was, which was some opinion and mostly fact, you know, and and I would love to know what other people think after hearing all of this and like seeing what we've presented. What what do you think? I'd love to know what what do all of you think on the other side of of all this? Is is the obituary something that you know we're sort of overthinking because we're really sad right now. Is there things that you guys can like pick out or or opinions, or maybe there is somebody watching who is more of like you know, a therapist or somebody on the behavioral side who has studied that? I'd be really curious just what listeners kind of take away from this and having heard Madison's testimony. If you have, um I just aired part one on this channel recently, and she has three interviews she's done with me. I'm gonna attempt to put them all up. Um, two of them got terminated on my last channel, and so I am very nervous to put them up on YouTube, but regardless, they'll be up on other platforms and I'll make announcements if they're not on my physical channel. But I would love if you guys went and just heard Madison, like, you know, don't don't take it from us. Like, go actually listen to her on my on my interviews, go listen to the other interviews she's done if they're up on the internet. You know, I'd love to know just you know what you guys think, and you know, I'd love to to get any feedback from people. Um, because it's it's felt like very confusing for people like Kibby and I going through this like emotional roller coaster and like you know, the emotions that it's bringing up is like some anger, sadness, you know, confusion, and um just things we can't really understand. And I don't know if you want to add anything to that, Kibbi, but I know for me it's been like a very difficult, this has been like one of the more difficult losses I've had to contend with because the closeness that you and I have both shared with her, but also like the reactions that we're that we're seeing.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:32

Yeah. Yeah. I still have processing to do. I didn't know how much of a character she was in my life until she passed because our relationship was digital, but it was consistent, it was reliable, it was supportive, it was what my inner child wanted. And yeah, I I encourage people to listen to her. I I her story, in my opinion, deserves to be heard. I I still want her to get justice. Um and like Emma said, like these are just our opinions on this episode. And uh yeah, I encourage people to listen to her and to form your own because I personally wouldn't listen to that obituary or the stuff her her family is saying right off the bat. I think Madison's been betrayed enough and she's owed a little bit more, and she's done for this world something that I don't know of anyone else who could have done what she's done. Um and I'm devastated beyond belief that it went unnoticed that her big heart and her bravery and how good of a person she was went unnoticed. And it's not fair. It's it's not as a survivor myself, building my own personal life after all the trauma and after sharing my story. As grateful as I am, it breaks my heart to pieces that Madison doesn't get to experience that. She deserved that, she deserved her dreams of finding a partner and forming a family and moving on past all this and being in the moment where she was the happiest. She deserves all that and more. And it was taken away from her because of betrayal and not being understood. And I we're I do believe we're in a spiritual war, especially regarding this topic. And when are we going to stop calling people crazy and just shut shut the fuck up and listen and then form our own opinions? I mean, that is how critical thinking works. And she deserved a normal life. She deserved a life after trauma. And I think that's one of the things that hurts me the most. She deserved it more than like anyone. I mean, from what she did. I I I don't to me at least, she has helped humanity so much. And it's unfortunate she's taken a lot of her work down, but I I I I mean, I'm just I'm still speechless. She deserved a life after everything she's gone through. So yeah, I just I encourage people to get to know her to the best of their ability because she's a very, very, very, very special person with a heart just that I don't I don't want to cry. I don't know if I'll ever be able to meet a heart like that, just so big and loves so deeply and is so brave. And even after betrayal, kept going and going and going until the enemy got too much of her.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:30

That was beautifully said, and I couldn't agree more with you. You know, it it torments me now. Like, I don't want to cry either, but you know, she was so young, and like I mean, I I'm like 15 years older than her almost, and I felt so on par with her, like emotionally and mentally. She didn't feel she had like this youth to her, of course. Like, you know, she she wasn't just like some you know lame adult. I'm not saying that, I'm not saying that about myself either, but she just had this like wisdom, like this old soul about her, where she could relate to anybody and like she cared so deeply about like relating to everybody and to like having compassion for everybody, no matter if you were her age or older, you know, and and to me it really is a shame that she took a lot of the stuff off the internet, even though I understand why she did, you know, it's it's sad that it's not there for other people to get to know her now. Like she erased herself off the internet, and now she's you know erased from this physical realm that we're in too. And so, and there's no way to get that back. We just have the few interviews and the few videos that remain of her, you know, and and to see her creative side on her Instagram that is still up, at least for right now. Um, you know, and and I definitely encourage you guys to do that too. And and as much as like we're talking about Madison here, and she deserves this whole episode, you know, this is a real problem in this community. And one of the things that's like been happening at a parallel time of Madison's death, and by the time this interview comes up, you know, on is aired, I don't know if it'll be like front page news anymore, but there's all these missing scientists that are like making front page news like online, and everybody's like all up in arms and covering it on like these big podcasts. And why don't we do that for survivors? You know, Madison gets that obituary is like the only recognition she gets. You know, like where's the headline for her and like everything she did? And so, like, that's also why it's important because survivors don't get that, you know, survivors don't they're gone and forgotten about, and the families bury what happened, they bury the truth about them, and and that's it. And then there's usually a cover story to what happened to them, and I'm not saying that's in Madison's case, but I'm saying there's a lot of foul play that's covered up with words like suicide or mental health, um, you know, when that's not actually accurate to what happened, even if potentially that was the outcome, you know, nobody does something like take their own life for no reason. And so even that story, you know, the fact that we're not concerned that allegedly all these survivors that are in our community are taking their own lives or dying, you know, so young. Like, why isn't this like a public outcry? There's so many in our community that go through this, and all over the world, these are just people that we know. You know, I've had multiple survivors that I know die every year, and that's just in my circle. You know, there's so many more that I don't know, and it's like this is a pandemic that's just happening behind the scenes that that never get headlined, that never get an acknowledgement. Their lives and their impact that they made are just buried. And so that was another reason why it's important to do this because that's not what Madison deserved, and that's not what any survivor deserves. And like, we have to be their voice. We can't just let their testimony fall on deaf ears and to be buried with them in the grave. Like, we have to we have to acknowledge the impact and like honor their bravery, what they risk to come forward at the extent of retaliation or even their own mental health, you know. And and Madison was one of the bravest people I've ever met. And I think if you guys take Kippy's advice and go dive into her interviews and try to find whatever you can about her, you'll see how brave she is for yourself and feel that same honor for her that we do. And so I just wanted to say that because it's it's it bothers me seeing all these other people get acknowledged for the tragedies that happened to them. But Madison is worthy of one one crappy obituary that does not acknowledge anything about who she was by the end of it, and so I appreciate you, Kibby, for contributing to this conversation. We both have relationships with her, and they were both very different, and they were both very beautiful, and they they both deserve to be, you know, heard because Madison was such an amazing person, and we both saw different sides of who she was. And I'm really grateful that you came on here with me today and and helped tell her testimony and help share who she was to you and for you, because you guys did have a very special relationship, and that also deserves to be acknowledged.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:32

Yeah, thank you, and thank you for talking and having this conversation. And just to piggyback real quick on that, I think like there's some Netflix documentaries with like, you know, cults and stuff, but the people have been prosecuted, they've gone through the court of law, and it's just astonishing to me how much recognition those survivors get versus the the survivors that don't get justice, and that's what Madison's passing reminds me of. It's like just one small but huge factor about the justice and the court of law system that can make or break everything. I mean, the it's just astonishing the difference between justice and no justice. And Madison was a case as most of us are of no justice, and she didn't she didn't deserve that.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:26

Amen. And I know that we weren't interviewing you, but I'd love to share you're here today, and you're somebody that is here to help share, and and you're spreading the good word and doing great work online whenever you get time to do it. And I would I would love for people to go support you too, Kibby, in the work that you do. So if you want to share, or if you're able to share where you're at online, I'd love for people to go connect with you and uplift you and you know, offer you words of of console, or even if they have memories of Madison that they want to share, I would love if people like just reached out to you and you know were able to be a witness and to help comfort you during this time too.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:08

Yeah. Um well, I'm on social media, Kibby Linga on most platforms, although I haven't been active much because I've been building my personal life and life after all this trauma, and it's a beautiful, beautiful journey. I'm going through a beautiful journey right now, and it makes me sad that Madison is not going through the same journey.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:34

Yeah, me too. And for you and for every survivor that is here, that's why it's so important that like we just try to help as much as we can and support. And you know, it's it's a damn shame the lack of courage with people like lawyers and you know, people that actually have the authority to help, how they don't, you know, and but we have to be the advocates for that. We have to be the ones that speak out and help be a voice. And KB, you're just doing an amazing job of that. And I'm really grateful that you're on a wonderful path for yourself and you're able to experience the things that so many haven't been able to who aren't here with us today, and that you get to honor that journey for them and be an inspiration for people who still are here who will end up going through what you're going through, but who are having a hard time now. You give a lot of people the inspiration and courage to keep going in their own journey. And I know that you did that for Madison as hard as her life was, and so I honor you too, and and just thank you again for everything that you shared today and just for being you. I'm really grateful that we got to have this conversation today.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:39

Yeah, me too. I'm so grateful we could like honor Madison in a different lens than that obituary and and whatnot, and we can always revisit this conversation. Like, there's so much about Madison.

unknown 2:07:56

I know.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:56

So agreed. And so, you guys, we'd love to hear from you in the comments if you guys have any feedback or insights yourself. Go support Kibi. I'm gonna have all her information down below. And just thank all you guys for caring. I know a lot of you on the other side of the screen may not have had a personal relationship with Madison, but I do know a lot of you did follow her. I've seen that in my comments, and I just thank all of you for loving on her and for following her and supporting her and watching her content, for believing her. You know, that's been really heartwarming for me, even reposting her interviews again, seeing everybody in the comments just, you know, it's so supportive and uh and and also so consoling for her not being here anymore and just seeing like what a loss it is. And so I just really appreciate all of you on the other side of the screen. So, with that being said, thank you guys so much for listening. God bless you all, and we will see you next time.