Series 5, Episode 1: Bringing music into everyday practice with artist Lucy Drever

In the first episode of the 5th Season of the Starcatchers' podcast, we're joined by musician Lucy Drever, who shares simple, accessible ways to explore music and sound with young children. Drawing on her experience of leading inclusive community projects, she offers practical ideas on how to adapt to the children and the environment you work in.

She also dives into the importance of tackling adult fears around music and exploring how musical experiences can support connection, communication and support children with additional support needs.

Transcript

Amy Hall Gibson  00:00 

Welcome to the Creative Skills podcast. I've got the lovely Lucy Drever, a presenter and workshop leader, who has joined our Creative Skills programme. Lucy, would you like to share with us a bit about your practice and what you've been doing with Starcatchers? 

Lucy Drever  00:42 

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. So I guess my practice really stems from the idea of being child led and having sort of child voice at the centre of it. And as you said, I'm a presenter and workshop leader. But I don't just work in early years. I work in all school age groups. I work in additional support needs settings, work in prisons, work in hospitals. And I think the thread that runs throughout is just participant voice at the centre. And I think in early years, that's just such a playful and joyful place to be. And with Starcatchers, I've been really lucky to become part of their Creative Skills team and working with amazing teachers thinking about ways to increase their confidence to get music, which can be a terrifying thing, to get music into their setting and to use music as a tool of sort of connecting with the children that they're working with, using it for tricky moments in the day, using it for joyful moments in the day, and just having conversations about what it can look like, instead of a sit down for 45 minutes and sing eight songs in a very kind of standard way, I guess so. Yeah, it's fun, and it keeps me on my toes. 

Amy Hall Gibson  02:08 

Absolutely. I think anyone who worked the early years is kept on their toes. Yeah, but yeah, that's a really important point to bring up is that, you know, you were saying, sort of like, it's not just early years you work with there's, there's a thread that goes through all your work, which is the participation participant’s voice. But I'm really interested in how sort of your kind of other experiences add to that kind of perspective, and I think your experiences as well, it'll sort of influence your work within the early years, because I think sometimes it can feel quite siloed. And in some ways that is a positive because there's an expertise, but in other ways it can actually it can be a disadvantage if you just think, oh no, it must just be this. What do you pull from your other sort of experiences, like your hospital work, that kind of thing, to bring into your early years? Work that you do? 

Lucy Drever  03:16 

I think there's a large part of what I do about reacting to what's in front of me, and particularly when you're working in very vulnerable settings with logistically things completely out of your control, or having to make very last minute changes. I think as a workshop leader, you're just really exercising that muscle of changing in the moment to whatever's going on in the room. And for me, that's one of the key things about early years practice is kind of having all these starting points, but really reacting to what's in front of you. I also think for me, a large part of my early years work is actually working with adults. That's working with the caregivers, the Guardians, the parents, and a large part, is actually making them feel comfortable. Because I think people come sometimes into for instance, if I'm doing Tunes for Tots with BBC, Scottish Symphony Orchestra. I'll be working with about four or five musicians leading a kind of creative play session which is based around five or six pieces and maybe three songs. A large part of the job is actually making the adults in the room feel comfortable, because they all have very clear expectations, and sometimes quite negative expectations, of what they're going to be expected to do in the music education setting, and that there's a right or a wrong, and actually, so much of my work is making them feel okay to be playful, and that if we are, I was leading a session at the weekend with London Symphony Orchestra. And we were sailing down the River Thames, and it was like, so what kind of do we see in the river? One we one just shouted out a lion, and you could just see their guardian's face, like, Oh no, that's not the right answer. And I was just like, That is perfect. And just got the 200 people in the workshop sort of roaring like a lion. And so I think kind of working with adults in the other strands of my work is actually really helpful to be like, what do adults need? And how can enabling their playfulness actually be the key to then their wee one can be super playful, but also then they can go home and realise that there's not a right or wrong, or we don't just have to shake the shaker to the pulse of the music. We can really just create something like, I think in art, we're really used to this idea of, like, mark making and it being a bit messy and a bit just like, that's so cool that you used all these different colours, and I'm not quite sure that we're there yet with music. Yeah, you know? 

Amy Hall Gibson  06:09 

Yeah! I think, I think you've just, for me, you've just hit a light bulb moment for me, when you said about the fact that, you know, there is this kind of fear around delivery of music, and there's, and I think it's that fear of getting it wrong, because, you know, there's this expectation that music should sound a certain way, and therefore, if It doesn't sound that, you know, that beautiful way, then we're getting it wrong. But actually, we need to experiment. Or there are ways in which you can still make music sound beautiful, but it's not done in the way that it's expected. And I think, I think we certainly my experience whenever I've sort of been in a setting, and the music instruments are usually up really high. You know, they are kind of like, nope, that makes a lot of noise. The environment they're already in is overwhelming, you know, and that additional level of stimulation for the adults is too much. Erm, I think it's that fear of, oh, if we get this out, it's gonna be chaos, and it's got to be comfortable for everyone who is in that environment. So you're right about the adult. And yeah, there is that moment absolutely of, you know, the caregiver being like, no, no, I oh no, all eyes on me, and that's not what people are comfortable with. So yeah, and I was really interested in sort of how you were using music where you said around, it's not just a sit down structured, you know, it's this, I don't know, 10, 15, 20 minute plot where we sit down and we do this. I was really interested in it you were saying about using it for those tricky moments during the day, and equally, the joyful moments during the day as well. And I wondered if there was any sort of antidote, any story that you could kind of share around how music could support those tricky moments during the day, or equally, those joyful moments, you know, for, particularly for people who, who maybe aren't as comfortable with maybe just, you know, bursting out into song or or picking up an instrument. 

Lucy Drever  08:26 

Yeah, there's, there's a couple of things that sort of really stick out as anecdotes over the last wee while. I think the first one is one of the nurseries I was working with really noticed a problem when it came to wee ones being brought in on time, and so they decided to start like a singing group in the morning. And obviously the wee ones kind of two and three, they can't be telling their adults, like, get me there on time. But they just found that actually, through engaging the adults with a cup of tea and a bit of a sing song, it just got people there a bit more on time, and I think in the actual setting itself, I have found quite a lot of early years practitioners that I've worked with have, before the wee one has come into their setting, have put on the little questionnaires, what do you listen to at home? Not, what does the little one listen to at home? What do you as a family listen to at home? And so that, when there is that, I don't know, kind of moment where maybe a distraction is needed or something else is needed, they have this playlist and this resource that they can just put on the song that actually the family dance to around the kitchen, you know, and kind of making connections of, we can create this feeling in this education setting where you are. And so that's kind of a couple of anecdotes that have really stuck out where music can be a very useful thing. And, you know, like, I don't know, maybe it's just the past couple of weeks that we've had with all the rain, but like music and wet play and actually being inspired by the rain and playing with water. And kind of embracing the weather, rather than it being like, oh, we can't go outside, you know? 

Amy Hall Gibson  10:41 

Teah, I think that's really important especially in Scotland, you know, like, you say it's, yeah, there's that old saying of, there's no such thing as bad weather, it's bad clothing. But equally, there's that thing of not being inspired. You know how there's that grey weather, you're like oh it's raining again? And I think that's a really, really great perspective about if you know, because we know in so many of our settings that there's massive outdoor opportunity. And you know, some practitioners might be thinking, you know, I feel like I've been outdoors for years, and you know, I'm maybe hitting a wall, either I don't know what else to do, but actually using music or thinking of it through that lens, I think that's really inspiring. And you've just, again, another light bulb moment for me is just thinking, oh yeah, how is it different? Because if it's raining, you're not relying on your electrical speaker, because you can't take that out. But there's so much music that you can use that isn't relying on that. But it's not just about the sound. There's rhythm, there's beat, you know, there's all these different things that you can do that still falls under the umbrella of music, pardon the pun, umbrella. But yeah, I think that's really exciting, that there's, you know, this element of using music and looking at the weather like for me, I haven't, sort of, maybe that's just me, but I haven't put those two together. So that's, that's a really nice moment. And also, I know that there are some children who don't, don't want to be outside, because it's cold and it's wet, so how do, how can we encourage them to have a joyful experience outside? 

Lucy Drever  12:32 

Yeah, and I it really makes me think of one colleague who really hates it when people describe music as noise, and much prefers the word sound. And I think, you know, if we pair it right back, music is essentially sound, and it's about enabling people to listen. Like music really is about listening, and it's about listening to what's going on around you, and being aware of what's going on around you. And the whole idea of being like sound detectives, or finding all the different sounds, listening for quiet sounds, thinking what are loud sounds? It might seem like a very simple activity, but like, dynamics, louds and quiets in music are some of the most advanced kind of listening skills that you can have. And if we're just sort of embedding that from the very beginning with the sounds going on us, on around us, I think that's just sort of building a toolbox for essentially, like, music can be part of your life, you know. 

Amy Hall Gibson  13:37 

And not something to fear. Because I know, again, just even myself, I don't, I wouldn't ever class myself as a singer. However, like you just said, there's dynamics you can think about. So it's about, you know, changing the volume, and we want, we want our wee ones to have that freedom and explore their voice through sound. And the adults in the room are really their biggest supporters, but also the biggest role models. So if an adult doesn't feel comfortable doing it, it's it's going to rub off on the child. They're not they're going to think, oh, this isn't, this isn't something we do because it doesn't feel comfortable. But if they have the opposite experience, then there's a whole joyful musical element happening that maybe, maybe even unintentional. It's just because it's enjoyed. And I like that idea of thinking about, what music are you listening to at home? Like, you know, we often talk about transitional objects, where it's an object from home that comes to support the wee one, but actually, maybe there's a sound that can absolutely fill that, that sort of a that area that the wee one really needs, you know! I remember years and years ago, and you'll, you'll probably remember this as well. There was a study done around babies and in the womb, and the parents have been listening to, well, I think, they've been watching Neighbours, the Australian soap, and they did a test where they played the the theme tune to the wee ones when they, you know, when they were born, and there was a reduction in stress. And it was to do with the fact that the mum had been watching Neighbours and were chill when they were watching it during pregnancy, and that had, that had fed through to when the wee ones were born, you know, they've not come into contact with Neighbours other than the sound. So I think that just backs up again about say, what are you listening to at home? And even if, you know, people are sort of saying, well, we don't really listen to music, per say, but could be, could even be, you know, sounds on the telly, what shows? Oh, we love this, so we love that. And, yeah, we're using those theme tunes to create that safe space, which completely works. 

Lucy Drever  16:07 

yeah, absolutely. And just that study on the Neighbours theme tune, there's now studies being done on the effects of playing the baby white noise to get it to sleep and stuff, and the results haven't been published yet. I've got a colleague who is taking part in the study. I think it's through Goldsmiths, a university in London, and I'm really interested to hear, yeah, the results of that, because I think it is really a thing now to play the we won white noise to get them to sleep, whereas before it might have just been like, actually sleep during a really busy household and the hoovering and blah, blah, blah, blah, but kind of what that does to their hearing, and what that does to their being able to identify sounds.  

Amy Hall Gibson  16:55 

I really liked when you said about being an muscle that you exercise when you were, you know, talking about music. It's that same thing with creativity, isn't it? If you if you're not using it, then it's like, you know, a colleague of mine spoke about it before. If you're not, if you're not using that muscle, whether it be, you know, your biceps or a muscle in the brain, it's sore, it's challenging, it's tiring, and I think that it's absolutely the same when it comes to music and creativity, that you know we we ones use it all the time because they're exploring their world, but as we get older, we don't use it as much, and then Therefore, that's when the barrier comes up. So I really like the part that, you know, when you mentioned that there, and you also mentioned, as well, about 200 people in an audience, and you had them, you know, you had them calling out different things when you were going down the Thames. I actually had the privilege of of seeing you on stage in front of, I reckon it was more than 200 we were in the Usher Hall in Edinburgh, and you were introducing, I think it was the Philharmonic Orchestra, and it was a family day, so there was all ages. And I Lucy, I was just in awe of you, because you, even though you're on this stage, and there's so many of us, and you didn't make it feel like that. It felt like we were in a small workshop. We were in a small space, because I felt like you were speaking to me as but obviously you're speaking to everybody. But not only did you do that, you, you know again, you, you managed to get us to do things which is just incredible. And, I mean, I think that's something that's very unique to you, Lucy, but thinking about, you know, a practitioner in a room full of like 90 children, what kind of what would be your top tips to kind of share, to kind of capture that engagement, because you really did. I mean, obviously it's a different environment. We were in a theatre, you know, and there was obviously a big, wide age range, but I do think there are definitely crossovers in there of how you can engage, you know, ahead of them. And it was an actually tied into the musical experience we were about to have as well. So yeah, just any kind of things that you share, that that you could share with us, around engaging that many people. 

Lucy Drever  19:29 

Firstly, thank you very much. That's really kind of you to say. I think something I think a lot about is people being comfortable with their own voices. And I do lots of training for professional, particularly instrumental musicians, and people are just not comfortable with their voice. They're just not comfortable in trying to get attention in a room. And then what happens is, because people are not putting breath behind it, they're not putting like kind of really. Intention behind it. People don't stop, and they kind of carry on with what they're doing. And I just think that actually, when I am going to concerts or where I'm watching something with a presenter, I sort of love as an audience member to be held like I love kind of someone just telling me what's going to happen next, and sort of having that moment where I can, like, wriggle about, get out some energy, and then I sort of know what's happening next. And so I think I don't know if it's a cultural thing, I don't know if it's a gender thing, but I think there's a lot of shame in taking up space with your voice. And I think the first thing I would always encourage people to do is you have to genuinely have some confidence and power behind your voice. Because actually, and maybe this is going off on a tangent, but I really strongly believe that if I'm modelling taking up space with my voice, that's essentially saying to you, this is what you can do. You can take up space with your voice, and you deserve to be heard. And then I think the second thing is giving people time to listen it. It takes people time to stop what they're doing or to change from what you have just said to them, what's happening next. And I often think that makes people feel like, oh, people are not listening to me. So I'm just, I'm just going to disappear. And it's like, no, they are listening. It just takes a little bit of time, so I guess not, to get discouraged. And then the third thing that I always say, which maybe is like the most boring thing ever, but you have to be prepared. You have to kind of know what's happening next. And that's not saying that you can not react to what's in front of you, but you sort of have to know where you're going, and that's done through really boring things, like in my job as a presenter, it's through memorising. It's through listening to the music. It's the thinking about all the different scenarios, so that when someone does call out in an audience of 2000 I can react it, but still carry on. Yeah, you know, and again, kind of holding space. And for practitioners, you know, running big groups, again, it's that muscle of taking up space, of like holding others in the space of being as prepared as possible. And like anything, it's practice. You know, it's putting yourself in the situation. But I do think the most successful workshops that I lead, or the most successful concerts are the ones where I feel like the musicians are behind me, or where I feel like the other workshop leaders right beside me, or the support musicians right beside me and with the orchestra that you saw me with, phillimonia, I've worked with them for a long time, and they're an amazing orchestra who tour all over the world. But as individuals, I know that they're invested in what they're doing. So it feels like we're all starting from quite a genuine place.  

Amy Hall Gibson  23:23 

We talk about a lot in early years about that slowing down, slow pedagogy, but actually that that also means giving time to for the wee ones to listen to us as well. So you know, it's just reminding ourselves that we need to give time, but we need time for each other as well. And I think I heard somewhere some, I mean, probably totally nonsense, but it's in my head that as little ones take up to 10 seconds to kind of actually process what's been said to them. So, you know, there is this gap that that as adults, we don't have that gap, because obviously we've learned, you know, we've made those synapses in our brain. And you know, like you, you practice, like you were saying, You've prepared for what comes next, whereas we want, they don't have that experience, or they haven't had that so they take a little bit longer to process and and, like you said, a bit, there's this kind of shame around having a bit of silence, this awkwardness. And I feel like, since, you know, since we all moved to online as well, like there's even more of that kind of like, oh my goodness, there's the silence, and it's because you're not in the room, so you're not hearing, you know, what you would kind of usually hear and you feel like that silence must be filled but I think what you're saying there is about saying, No, we need to give people time. It's not that they're they're not choosing to to actively go out of their way to ignore you. They possibly are so engaged in. In an experience, in an activity that they really aren't listening, you know? And it's it's not it's not on you, and it's about you having that confidence to see, ah, the reason that they're not responding is because this is happening so it comes into that prepared to what's next. How can I pull them away from something that they're really enjoying, because we need to do something and practice. Yeah, absolutely, we work with students. And I think actually, you might be working with some of our students coming up soon, and I think that that's a real learning curve for them, because they have placement. But there's maybe not this understanding that you need to practice. You do need to practice. It's not the same as when you're, you know, an actor, for instance, like, you know, you were mentioned about memorising lines, that kind of thing, and some, I think careers, it's an absolute given. It's a norm. We need to practice. You know, doctors practice, surgeons practice, you know, but I think in other careers, it's kind of like, no, no, you just go to work. You just do it. What's not seen as a practice, as in, I've rehearsed this, I've tried this out, and I think maybe if that was to change that shift, think maybe we would see a shift in people confident, and maybe in how people believed in their self, you know, because I do think that, you know, we're all capable, and I think that practitioners are amazing at what they do, but they just maybe don't have that kind of Self belief in their own ability. 

Lucy Drever  26:40 

Yeah, absolutely. And I, I feel very lucky to work with, you know, practitioners who just have a level of curiosity and creativity with the young people that I just find so inspiring. And I always find that I learned so much. But one of the things, particularly with music, that I see when people are leading musical moments, or possibly musical moments with kind of a bigger, bigger group, is that, because people are not quite sure, for instance, of the song that they're going to be teaching, yeah, instead of the introduction being just starting off singing, and then, because it's a new Sound world, people will pay attention to you. Instead of that, it becomes Okay, everyone you have to be quiet. Everyone has to be quiet. Now we're going to learn a song about the rain, and the rain is falling down. And so what's going to happen is, I'm going to sing a little bit, and then you're going to and it's just like, you know, anyone would slightly lose focus for that sort of introduction, whereas you mentioned that lovely idea of like in early years, we really have to slow down. And I totally agree, but I think the slowing down also allows us, in some moments, to really just speed up. And I think sometimes with musical introductions, people have such a nervousness about getting started with the musical activity that it actually then becomes like a managing the room. Everyone has to be silent before it starts. Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah. And I totally understand that. And I probably did that for years and again, you know, it's just back to this word of practice, you start to be able to kind of really read the room. But that's the thing with practitioners. They know they're real ones inside out, you know. And I always start sessions with that like, you are the experts. 

Amy Hall Gibson  28:34 

They really are. 

Lucy Drever  28:36 

They really are. 

Amy Hall Gibson  28:37 

Yeah, you know, you'd mentioned about work in kind of other areas, and I'm really interested in the prison work that you've been doing, and I just wondered if you could maybe share with us a little bit about what that looked like, because I think you were working with families as well. So just obviously, and it's quite a unique sort of environment. Obviously, there's a lot of, I imagine, a lot of kind of feelings and emotions, or, you know, lots of things happening in that space. And I just wondered if you could share a wee bit about that. 

Lucy Drever  29:18 

Yeah, definitely. So one of the roles I have is as an associate artist of the BBC, Scottish Symphony Orchestra. And when I started working with them, probably about eight years ago, they kind of asked what strands they should be working on in terms of their learning team. And I feel that early years is a really important thing for the orchestra to be doing. I think school work in particular, working in additional support needs settings is really important. But also thinking what other classical music organisations in Scotland are doing. And I felt those were two areas that were kind of. Was not as well catered for. And then the third strand was criminal justice. And I've been working in English prisons for quite a long time with the Irene Taylor Trust, which is a charity. And one of the projects that we did was working with dads to write a pantomime for their little ones at Christmas time. It was a two week project, and it was honestly a life changing project, because just seeing kind of dads do the acting, do the singing, do the playing in the band, do all the writing of the music and the script, it was just phenomenal. But then seeing their wee ones reaction of what dad could do, but also having a moment where that family unit could just create some memories that were just theirs. And like, in a relatively like, I guess, more usual experience that other families might have, yeah. And so that really stuck with me. And so when the opportunity came up with BBC Scottish, I was really keen that we start to think about criminal justice work. And Jess Thorpe, who's an amazing drama practitioner working in prisons, and she does a lot of family work in prisons through theatre. 

She suggested that we work with HMP Low Moss for various reasons, but one of them was that they have a partnership with Early Years Scotland, so they have a base in the prison. And so we decided to take in our Tunes for Tots sessions to the prison. So Tunes for Tots is really sort of catered for zero to five. And the intention was that these would be through visiting hours. But obviously, families don't just have little ones who are zero to five, and actually, with the zero year old, there might be a 14 year old, or there might be a couple of eight year olds or, you know, so we very quickly didn't make it early years specific, but what we did with early years Scotland is in the visiting centre. And I didn't describe this as radical, but then it was through having a mentor session with Jess that she was like, No, this is radical, but one of the things I said that we had to do was to, like, move the tables in the visiting centre so the tables are tables with chairs that you can't move. Okay, and once you sit in these seats, you're not really allowed to move. So that's quite a difficult thing for a two year old to do. So I just We were so lucky, and the staff at the prison were absolutely amazing, and they said, let's try it. So we moved all the tables. And then Early Years Scotland kind of gave us some resource that we could kind of create little islands for each family, and then brought in our four or five musicians, and then just led, like a musical making session. But the feedback that we got from dads and granddads was just kind of overwhelming, actually, in that like, you know, it gave them the opportunity, for the first time, to during the star moment of the session, for the little one to lie on dad's chest for the first time, or to hear music with their partner, and they hadn't heard live music together in, you know, however long. And that the one of my favourite moments was we brought in an amazing percussionist, Callum Huggin, and he brought in his vibraphone, and then one of the dads was teaching their son a tune on the vibraphone. And then we took that project and then asked the dads and the granddads to co create a session for their children. So we did a Disney theme, and there's an amazing art department. So we did kind of lots of art and music in mark making and trying to make it accessible for basically every young person in the room, whether they were zero, we had like a wee one join us that was four days old, to whether they were like 15 and and using music as a way for family bonding and for dad or granddad not to feel self conscious about how to engage with their child. Because I think one of the things that people maybe take for granted is the space to kind of walk away from your child, and the space to kind of start to read their reactions and know what's going on. And obviously the men that we were working with didn't have that. And so kind of creating non failure options where dad could be dad and granddad could be granddad,  and that was a really important thing, and we're actually going back into the prison on Saturday to do a family concert, so hopefully we'll see some of the families that we've been working with and some of the wee ones that we met when they were days old, and now will be kind of two or three, which is wild. 

Amy Hall Gibson  35:29 

That's incredible. And I think what's really key there is what you just said about non failure. Because obviously the environment in which you were in there's, you know, the outside pressures, you know, like, like you just said, you know about dad, not have, you know, haven't had child on chest, you know. But I think even if we remove that kind of prison aspect, I think that's happening in daily life for lots of reasons. We've got single parents, we've got parents who, you know, work away for lots of reasons. And we've also just got caregivers and parents who just aren't confident or sure what to do or how to interact. And I think it's those non failure moments that are really, really important. And like you said, having space to be able to walk away from your wee one. And I know that a lot of earlier settings really try to support families by having those plane three sessions or, you know, invite parents in. And I think that if you're going to have, you know, have a space where we can have families in, you know, it goes back to what you said at the beginning, but making sure the adult is comfortable. And that equals non failure, say, experiences, but it's non failure for the wee one too, because we don't want them to then become frustrated because they're adults not doing, you know, whatever they think or or you know they feel they can't do whatever's been asked of them. But also through that, you were talking a lot about voice, voice of the wee one. You were absolutely, sort of teaching the adults in the room wee ones have a voice, and this is how they're showing you it. So give them the space that they're asking for, or, you know, you were doing it in such a held way, such a supportive way, that no one would feel like they were feeling or doing something wrong, which I think is a thread that I'm hearing is through your work as well. And you know, you started off sort of saying about there's no right or wrong, and you know about holding the space and so, yeah, I think there's definitely a thread of of, like, making sure that people don't feel that they fail in a music session with yourself, which is really powerful. 

Lucy Drever  37:53 

Yeah, and I really, really strongly believe it. And I think particularly with music education, when it is sort of a right and wrong a scale sounds a particular way, or we've really made it into an exam centric thing that helps people to get into university or shows increased intelligence, and I just think that it can actually give you so much more than that. And I really believe it's an amazing tool to sort of be heard and to build community and togetherness and to experience the present moment. And I really hope that in kind of whatever I'm presenting or whatever I'm workshop leading, that's how that's how people feel. Because I I sometimes think, particularly, you know, all my work is in the classical music industry, and I think particularly with classical music, it can be quite exclusive, and it can have these weird rules, and it can just have these weird expectations attached to it. But actually, you know, we we really need to let go of that idea that the only thing that babies can listen to is Amadeus Mozart or JS Bach. And then, like, actually, some of my favourite sessions are the kind of weird and wacky or slightly difficult music where, you know, I once used Dimitri Shostakovich, some of his music he was writing his music under a Russian dictator. And, you know, his music is so powerful, but we attached it to a shark. And I remember one of the producers being like, I think this might be too scary, and the little ones loved it. And again, it's just sort of, there's not a right or a wrong thing to play, yeah, a wee one. It goes back to your kind of Neighbors theme tune. Like, actually, again, it's kind of just showing people that you can create all these, like, really magical atmospheres with so much different music, you know? 

Amy Hall Gibson  40:07 

Yeah, absolutely. And, like, obviously, using the classical music and, and, yeah, I do think there is this kind of societal fear of being like, I don't understand it, or I don't, I don't, I don't know, I don't. Oh no, there's too many rules, you know. So then again, our youngest people aren't being exposed to it, you know. Or, like you said, it's exclusive, so only some are getting getting exposed to it, yeah, but not everyone, but it is there for everyone. And you were chatting a bit about the additional support need work that you've done as well, and I just wondered if you could sort of share a little bit around that work that you've been doing as well. 

Lucy Drever  40:52 

Yeah. So that's mostly been again, through BBC Scottish and we focus on three additional support needs, setting senior school settings in Glasgow. And again, it's like through relationships. I think we've been working in the three settings for about five years. Maybe that. I think we started off with a project that was maybe, like, some musicians playing some music, and then us, kind of like singing a couple of songs, and now it's just so lovely. The teachers can be like, actually, we need this. We want to do a bit of composition. Or we have a young person who's really into this. Or, you know now quite often we'll be working with the young people that maybe teachers were a little bit apprehensive about us working with to start off with, and I totally understand why. Like, I think they've had really bad experiences with visitors going in, but then to be able to build that trust up, and then just have 45 minutes with a group to write a piece of music about, you know, like a piece of video game music. Something I've been using lots is Laura Shigihara's Grass Walk from Plants vs Zombies, and I'd never heard of Plants vs Zombies, but it's a big deal, and people love the piece of music. And then so to be able to write our own sort of alien or our own kind of plant that we might find in this video game just is a really beautiful thing. And the young people playing instruments, or, you know, we take in lots of different materials and textures as well. So there's lots of different ways in and kind of back to what you're saying. We just, we just really want to honour and make space for every voice in the room, you know. And that's just going to look different every day in every workshop. And I think that's one of the joys of the job. 

Amy Hall Gibson  42:52 

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think as well, there you were saying about the trust and relationship, because you've been there for five years, and it's that comes back to that confidence of the teachers being able to be like, Do you know what I feel comfortable saying, actually, this is what we need now. Yeah, you know, I think that's the case for any setting that you're going to work in, and that's half the battle, really, isn't it? About building that trust and then so that you can really meet the needs. Because, again, we said this earlier, they're the experts in the room. They know their children and as external visitors going in, we rely on that expertise in order to meet the needs of everyone in the room. Obviously, you know, like we can react to what we see absolutely, you know, we've got experience that we can bring with us, but we only know what we know, you know, yeah, and we at Starcatchers, we, you know, we don't tend to deliver things without the experts in the room, which is the wee ones and and the big ones, you know, the caregivers, the adults, but also the wee ones are experts in the room too, and we're responding to what they're telling us. You know, often, you know our first session, you know, like you say, you'll have these ideas where you you you're taking in sensory materials because, because you're coming with an experience, but you're also coming with that open mindedness of saying this will allow us to sort of see what they want to tell us, both adult and child.  

Amy Hall Gibson  44:46 

Thank you so much. It's been so interesting and fascinating. I mean, I could talk to you for a lot longer. I'm not sure everyone would want to listen to us that length of time. I'd listen to it again. But thank you so much for joining, joining me on this podcast. It's been absolutely amazing. 

Lucy Drever  45:09 

No thank you so much for having me. It's been such a lovely chat. 

Amy Hall Gibson  45:14 

Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode of The Starcatchers podcast. You can find the transcript for this episode and the accompanying resources at starcatchers.org.uk. Music from this episode is from Starcatchers Production Hup!, full credits in the show notes. This podcast is part of Starcatchers early years development programmes, training and resources for the Early Learning, childcare workforce in Scotland, funded by the Scottish Government. To find out more, please head to the Starcatchers website or follow us on social media @starcatchersuk.