Great Women In Fraud

Episode 12 Jerri Williams host of Retired FBI Case File Review

December 14, 2020 Kelly Paxton, CFE
Great Women In Fraud
Episode 12 Jerri Williams host of Retired FBI Case File Review
Show Notes Transcript

Jerri Williams, Retired FBI Agent, who is the podcast host of Retired FBI Case File Review, is on the show today.  We talk economic crimes, women as embezzlers, advance fee scams, her career and so much more.  This was filled with case examples, fun stories and lots of great information about the FBI.  She should be getting sponsored by the FBI for her podcast.  


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Kelly Paxton: Okay, I am so incredibly excited to have Jerry Williams on the podcast today because as I just told Jerry. She is an expander for me and an expanderis a person who has done something that you aspire to.

And Jerry Williams, who you'll get to here in just a second. She has created this multimedia empire based on her career in the FBI and I you guys are gonna love this. So Jerry, introduce yourself and talk to however long you want about like what you have done.

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Jerri Williams: Well, I'm going to give you my standard introduction, what I have on my website and what I say in my podcast. So I'm Jerry Williams. I'm a retired agent and the host of FBI retired case file review podcast and I'm on a mission. I'm on a mission to show you who the FBI is and what the FBI does through my books, my blog and my podcast case reviews with former colleagues.

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Kelly Paxton: Well, and I mean she's totally minimizing.. I'm going to have links to her stuff, but she's got books. She's got resources and one of the first things that I wanted

That I downloaded last night that I just had. It's awesome. The 20 cliches about FBI agents and I just have to say that top 20 cliches about FBI agents and I'm okay. One of them. I'm going to take issue with just in my personal experience.

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Jerri Williams: Okay, okay, but

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Kelly Paxton: I'm and I'm going to do it qualified is that agents on their own share but once management gets involved, it's all, it's a little more territorial than you make it sound out

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Jerri Williams: In my early so you're on the part you're on the cliche of FBI agents don't play well with others.

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Kelly Paxton: Yes.

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Jerri Williams: You're on that part. Oh.

Hey, we're supposed to be debunking these cliches not supporting them.

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Kelly Paxton: And I did give that caveat I said that individual agents very much are like that. But once it gets up and this is like in corporate America to once you get management involved.

Then everything goes a little bit sideways so agent by agent. Definitely. They play well with others. But then, when management gets involved. I think that's when it goes a little bit off the rails, so

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Jerri Williams: All right, I can, I can see how that could be

Your, your experience, my personal my personal experience. Okay. And then we you didn't mention this, but you're consulting for Hollywood studios.

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Kelly Paxton: Like, how cool is that

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Jerri Williams: Yeah, that's something new that happened this year and I, of course, have always had the podcast and from the very, very first episode.

I said that I was going to look into. You know what was in books TV and movies about the FBI and to kind of set the record straight. And then from that I created the

List of cliches and misconceptions and then from that, I turned it into a book FBI myths and misconceptions a manual for armchair detectives.

And from that book on the podcast I got contacted I didn't reach out to them, but I got contacted by Hollywood and

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Jerri Williams: I'm now under contract with FX network and with Warner Brothers and Bad Robot, and I'm working on.

Two TV shows about the FBI or featuring FBI agents that will be coming out, I guess, sometime in 2021

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Jerri Williams: Of course, the filming of all of this is up in the air because of covid, but I am having an absolutely fabulous time talking with the writers and helping them, you know, get the FBI right and  their scripts.

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Kelly Paxton: Well, you know, when I first found out about you and I can't even remember how because I like I love podcasts, obviously, so much so that I created a podcast.

But I can't remember exactly how I found out about you but initially I was like, because I've looked at having sponsors to do the podcast. And I was like, Is the FBI SPONSORING HER BECAUSE THEY SHOULD BE they

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Jerri Williams: Yes, yes, they should be. I'm I think I am a an audio recruiting tool.

That I think most of the FBI recruitment office would attest to also but now no sponsor.

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Kelly Paxton: Well okay day need to get on it because they're asleep at the wheel. If they don't, because

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Jerri Williams: You know why they're not sponsoring it? Because I would do it anyway.

If they know someone's gonna do something because it's their passion and their mission and they're not expecting you know the FBI to pay for that.

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Jerri Williams: I know the FBI. They're not going to pay

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Kelly Paxton: Well, and this way, you have full creative control, which I think is incredibly important.

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Kelly Paxton: Yes. So now we talked a little bit earlier about you did economic crime work. And so you are familiar with the term pink collar crime, maybe you didn't know that existed, but you also talked to a case, do you want to talk about that case with Susan Barrett

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Jerri Williams: Yeah, so I've investigated again economic crime, which is your frauds. Your Ponzi schemes, your advanced fees schemes.

Your business to business telemarketing and of course your major embezzlement and so this particular case was an embezzlement and Susan Barrett was a manager at

What at the time was called Commerce Bank, and I think they were all up and down the East Coast, but definitely in New Jersey, where I lived at the time right outside of the Philadelphia area.

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Jerri Williams: And I'm not sure how I got brought into the case, it probably was somebody from Commerce Bank reaching out to the FBI or to the US Attorney's office, but it was assigned to me.  And basically what I learned was that as the manager at the as the branch manager Susan Barrett had been had become very friendly with an elderly man who was a customer at the bank and he of course came and and had difficulty, you know, with his banking and his statements and she

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Jerri Williams: Offered to assist him. And at that point, she instead of being mailed his bank statements, she would hand deliver them.

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Jerri Williams: And when he would get his bank statements you know everything look good. I mean, he had several million dollars in the bank, and each bank statement came

The money was still there. He was making a little bit of interest on savings and and whatever he might have had and and money markets and you know different financial instruments, everything was fine and continue to be fine. It got to a point where she was so friendly with him that she became friends with the whole family.

To the point when either his daughter are probably. It was a granddaughter had a destination wedding. And one of the islands Susan Barrett was invited and she spent in the glorious weekend with the entire family just having a fabulous time

They loved Susan Barrett, and they loved her because she seemed to love their father, you know, she took care of their father then the father dies.

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Jerri Williams: And then they start looking into his account and what it says on the bank statement, the paper bank statement that Susan Barrett has delivered to their father for years is totally different than what the actual bank records and documents say

Susan Barrett has been embezzling had been embezzling money from this elderly man for years and You know, a lot of his money was gone, but was what was really bad is that when he died and she no longer had access to his accounts because now they're under his estate.

She is able to get into the daughters and his other relatives accounts and start taking money from their accounts. And so basically

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Jerri Williams: When I go into the bank and I subpoena the records. I can see the bank statements that the Father had kept on file. When he saw and I can see the actual bank statements and if you look really close, you could see that she had gone in and changed the numbers. And so she was able to, you know, because she's at the bank you know it it look real. It looked like. These were the, the real truthful bank statements, but she had altered them and he had no idea that she was taking you know his money for years. And again, the daughters, I think. The total amount came that she was charged with came to just under $900,000 but I kind of remember it being a little bit more. But I think that's what I had looked up the indictment and that's what it said. So I, I may have remembered it a higher amount, but that's that's pretty significant $900,000 that she had taken from again the Elderly. Elderly man and his daughters without their knowledge or consent.

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Kelly Paxton: Well, and she probably went to that wedding on his money.

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Jerri Williams: Oh, absolutely. She did everything on his money, what He was doing with the money. Where, where I lived. And I just, she just happened to live in my town I live. I lived in Washington Township, New Jersey. The one in the South Jersey, and she lived there too. But we're right we're just an hour away from the Jersey Shore. And she at the time. Everybody was buying up, you know, beautiful Ocean Front homes at the Jersey Shore and flipping them, you know, buying property that was a little bit rundown and and developing them and making them pretty and beautiful and then reselling them and she and her boyfriend were using his money and in order to make these purchases and to make the changes in the home and and to resell them I it looks to me that she wasn't very successful because she depended on his money, even after his initial and investment quote unquote investment enter into her flipping business but

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Jerri Williams: Think when you are an investigator of these types of cases what you see as the emotional toll that the victims have to suffer through because

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Jerri Williams: As in this situation and many pink color cases as you and I discussed before we actually started recording because we're nerds about fraud and we love this stuff. These are people that they trust it, you know, these are women that they feel are caring for them, you know, that are their friends that they set themselves up as caretakers, while at the same time they're robbing you blind.

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Kelly Paxton: Well, yeah, so like this is, you know, I have to turn pink collar crime and the people who take issue with the term are actually more women than men. And I didn't make up the term pink collar crime, it's a criminologist, who came up with the term, but we, you know, I was a special agent for customs and we arrested bad guys. We don't say bad women.

 And we think about children when you're a child or if you have children, you tell your children when you're in the store. If you get separated from me go look for the nice lady and if you see a bad guy yell and run. But I'm kind of here to break the stereotypes, not in a negative sort of way. But for business owners to understand that, you know, It isn't just bad guys that still we we spend a just billions of dollars on locks and home security systems. But in the case of this elderly man, and it's a little different than he's elderly like if he had just gotten his own mail and his own mailbox. I tell business owners all day long mailing your statements.

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Kelly Paxton: Home and they're like, what, why and I'm like, because you need to be the first one to get your statement. No one can get it.

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Kelly Paxton: And Rita Crundwell who stole $53 million. The largest municipal embezzlement.

She was the controller of Dixon, Illinois. She got the mail….She had a relative get the mail for her. That's like I don't call them red flags that pink flags flying everywhere.

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Jerri Williams: You a ding DING, DING DING DING

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Kelly Paxton: Well, and like you said that emotional toll is just

 Um, I was on a podcast yesterday and I was talking about, like, there's also victim shaming.

 And the victim shaming a fraud is really pretty bad. You will see someone who, you know, on a new story online that a business. I know a business owner, half a million dollars embezzled

The story goes on Facebook through the local newspaper and the comments are like what an idiot business owner. Now if you get your car robbed. Do people say what an idiot car owner, even if you left the door unlocked but people just they think it's never going to happen to them because they're smart it. Would you agree, your IQ has nothing to do with your embezzlement factor.

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Jerri Williams: Oh, definitely for embezzlement. Now I will tell you, I will have to admit that I occasionally do some victim shaming when it comes to other types of fraud, maybe, such as advanced fee schemes. 

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Jerri Williams: And we can talk about that later. But an embezzlement. No, you're absolutely right. It's a trust factor. And it's not just to trust because this person is nice, but they're an employee.

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Jerri Williams: And they have a responsibility that you're being that you're paying them for and you believe that your employees, you should be able to believe that your employees are doing the job that they're supposed to do.

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Jerri Williams: That's why you have employees because you can't do it all you've got to depend on other people. Now, there needs to be checks and balances and that could be other employees in your business that are checking on each other, but it is

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Jerri Williams: Definitely a situation where it's all about trust, and whether it's a very small family, you know, mom and pop

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Jerri Williams: Kind of business are a big corporation, the person that's handling your finances and handling your books is somebody that you put in that position because you believe they can be trusted.

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Kelly Paxton: Well, so this is really funny that you mentioned this, the advanced fee schemes, aka prime banknotes aka letter of credit. So you probably don't know this, but I with an agent in US Customs in New York, we did the first and probably ever only advanced fee scheme seminar two day seminar on it and it was in 1998. I remember the year because

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Kelly Paxton: I brought my son, and he was, you know, it was 1998 in New York in the World Trade Center and we put on a worldwide conference for advanced fee schemes and the highlight of my customs career was stopping and advanced fee scheme by a female attorney.

She stole $2.4 million And like you said the victim. He thought he was getting like 2% a week interest on his money and he was greedy and it was long crazy story, but I bet you did not know that I was part of the first and probably only ever advanced fee scheme conference.

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Jerri Williams: I'm so excited and happy. Advanced fee scheme game was one of the type of cases that I really enjoyed working because the in my situation it was usually a loan broker.

And the loan brokers always thought that they were the smartest people in the room. I mean, they were truly charmers they were truly con men. And you know what

They saw me come up and they're like, you know, here she is this you know this, you know, black female and you know agent and  I'll sweet talk her out of this, you know, because they're so used to You know, with the BS and knowing how to be flowery and to convince people to do things that in the back of their mind they know it's too good to be true. So it was always fun to work those type of cases, but I always felt bad for the victims, because these were always desperate people. But, and the reason that I admit to a little bit of victim shaming as because their desperation. It was like chum in the water for the for the For the loan brokers in the convent because they were so desperate there they rationalized and there's their their their sense of what's the word of they kind of lost their senses and their ability to smell something bad.

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Kelly Paxton: Yeah, if it's too good to be true it is too good to be true.

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Kelly Paxton: When you're in a point of life you're gonna lose your business in my victims wasn't anywhere going to lose his business. I mean, he was a multi multi millionaire. But, you know,

I have to say he loved law enforcement after this experience because we not only gotten his $2.4 million back. We got a house for him that she had bought with, you know, other stolen money and a car and he owned a car dealership. So, I mean,

 He IT WASN'T HE WAS greedy, but he also wanted to kind of be and maybe you've seen it. Mr. Big Shot. He was like, I've invested in this thing. And I'm getting that he wanted to be Mr. Big Shot. And I remember him waltzing into the US Attorney's office in Seattle, Washington. My Assistant United States Attorney could barely hold back his laughter. He was European and he was dressed to the nines. He had gold all over him. He was hysterical. I mean,

It was one of the funnest cases I worked. And I got to get the female lawyer disbarred and sent to prison. So that's even better.

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Jerri Williams: I will have to say because one of the things that I really stress to people when I talk about fraud is that is never the focus of an FBI economic crime or fraud investigation to get a victim's money back  and now, our focus is to gather the evidence to prove that a person has committed a crime, but I would always tell the people that I was the victims of my cases.

 We may be able to get some of your money back, we may be able to get it all of it, but most likely we're going to be able to get none of it back.

And so good for you that he was able to get his money back. And you know the proceeds of a home, but in most instances, those convent that I worked at that I investigated that money was gone. As soon as I got into their hands.

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Kelly Paxton: Well, the only reason was we were, we had a really excellent relationship with a bank and the bank held it and otherwise it would have been gone it absolutely would have been gone  and it was funny, my group supervisor. He was always, maybe you were like this, but I was always a little delayed and putting my stats into the system.

Like, I really didn't care that much about, you know, but law enforcement is governed by stats, I would always put in the forfeiture if we got it. The part about the person going to prison that didn't excite me as much as making the victim full like in that isn't the goal, but like making the victim full was just like the best.

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Jerri Williams: I was gonna say, I can't really think of a time where it happened at all for me because

The bad guy are bad girl or woman, or whoever may have been ordered to pay back you know you know for for future, but I doubt if anybody ever got it like in the Susan Barrett case that Susan Barrett pay them back almost $900,000. No, no, she did.

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Kelly Paxton: No one steals to save

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Jerri Williams: I mean, not that

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Kelly Paxton: You probably don't know this. I'm the fraud hashtag Queen and I have lots of them and hashtag.


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Kelly Paxton: No one steals to save. 

And hashtag trust is not an internal control like those are some of the most used ones because 

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Jerri Williams: I did, I did a podcast interview and I have lots of fraud episodes on my podcast, because I love fraud so much. And even though I tried to do all the violations. I do all the violations at the FBI investigate. So I've got organized crime and I got gang violence and I got serial killers and  all of it. I have it. I've done it. I've interviewed the person, but I do have a lots of fraud and there's a drop down menu at the very bottom of my website and you can actually go on and and and click on frauds and access all of those, but I recently interviewed Vic Hartman and Vic Hartman is as a an FBI agent and CPA and fraud investigator and

After all my years working this he opened my eyes to one of the motivation and I think it was. It's really partner when we talk about pink color fraud. And he was saying that a lot of times fraud occurs. And it's almost like binge eating.

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Jerri Williams: So a person feels bad about themselves has low self esteem or whatever things are just happening wrong in their life, and they start committing fraud and spending outrageous money and having this need, like, the woman that you talked about with the

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Jerri Williams: With the all the king's horses.

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Jerri Williams: That a lot of times you look at this person saying you know you stolen and embezzled all this money because you're greedy and what he said to me is, again, like binge eating. It's like a like a cycle that they feel scared and bad about themselves, because they've taken it. And so they have to take more to buy more stuff to feel better. And it's like, and I was like, wow, after all these years of doing that investigation. I never even thought of that as part of the motivation to to embezzle

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Kelly Paxton: Well, what's interesting, and you can google this is there is a drug for restless leg syndrome and it has been used as a as a defense for like gambling and embezzlement and there was a case by where I live, where the woman stole $250,000 or it was like 260 from a golf course and the golf course was owned by a wealthy family and they were friends with her.

 And what happened was, is she went on this allegedly medication for restless leg and she started gambling and therefore she started stealing.

And there's another woman, so I have felon friends that I write to women in prison.

I stay away from in writing in prison, but women and there's a woman who stole $10 million from a car dealership in Pennsylvania.

 And I wrote to her and I have these list of questions that I asked them, and is have you done this before.

 And this was her answer, I had never so much as had a parking ticket. I got sick. I got put on a medication. And she goes, I went back to work and I just started ceiling, she went she literally took her family to the Vatican to see the post Super Bowl. She had a $32,000 private lunch with Ina Garten. The Barefoot Contessa

And she said she got put on a medication, she went back to work. And she just started stealing.

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Kelly Paxton: Yeah, I do. And there's other stuff about her history that like she and there's a forensic psychologist in Oregon who's done work with these women.

 And a lot of them are clinically depressed and there's abuse in childhood. Not all of them, but there's a high amount of abuse in childhood.

And this woman Patricia Smith. She was like, I never felt loved and she wanted. She wanted to earn her family's love and she was working for this very wealthy family. They own numerous car dealerships had a stadium named after him.

And she saw them living the high life and thinking they were happy and you know what she thought money bought happiness. And that's another thing is

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Kelly Paxton: Money is a short term fix for a long term problem.

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Kelly Paxton: Like we can you know you can take money and it's going to fix your visa problem or your mortgage problem but long term, you need to get on a budget or you need to like downsize. People see money as a short term fix. And the problem is, once you steal it. You don't stop. Like you, I rarely see people who stop until they get caught.

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Jerri Williams: Yeah, and I think that is what has always been fascinating. So my entire Bureau career, other than the time that I was the spokesperson for the Philadelphia division.

 I spent investigating fraud, you know, maybe the first six months, I did bank robbery and something like that. And then I got into assigned to work fraud and work to my entire career and let us start to to wonder is what is it that they say to themselves, that makes it okay for them to still other people's money. And I think this idea of the depression.

 And stealing more and making it a cycle thing to try to feel better is an answer to that question.

 That is valid that I really didn't think about before. That doesn't mean I feel sorry for the people because of all the things that they do so that they're not detected. That's where the crime.

 A becomes an official act you know it's a real act because if the, if it was just a depression.

 Then, you know, they wouldn't be not going on vacation or never getting sick are, you know, all of that kind of stuff. They do to make sure they're not detected at that point, you know, you get a criminal act you know they're there, they're trying to evade

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Jerri Williams: Detection and consequences. But it is interesting. When you think about that person who is running up their credit card. It's really the same person. But this person is paying off the credit card with somebody else's money.

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Kelly Paxton: Well, yeah. And you know the fraud triangle you have opportunity pressure and rationalization and is accountants and auditors and Fraud Examiners we're always talking about

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Kelly Paxton: Control the opportunity if you don't give them an opportunity they can't steal and I, you know, I believe that, but I also believe rationalization a business and a business is culture and a bosses culture can really affect a rationalization, and I use this example all the time.


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Kelly Paxton: A colleague of mine goes to a business has been embezzled he thinks

She downloads the data, the business owner says, Okay, this person is in charge of this, this person is in charge of that. And then he gets to his administrative assistant and he says to my friend. He goes, don't look at anything. She does. She's too dumb to steal from me. Guess who stole Wow. Now, it doesn't make it right. But when you have that it's easier for the rationalization part my boss is a jerk. I'm going to take money from the other example I use a lot of times you get a business owner who lives out of the corporate checkbook. We call it and they take their family to a trade show in let's say I don't know the the Mediterranean.

They come back with their black American Express bill and they hand it to the accounting staff and it's like okay pay it, and the accounting staff is like, well, you took your family. So, like, how do you want me to break this down.

 And the boss is like it's none of your bleeping business just pay it that accounting staff person knows you're stealing from the government, and it might not happen right away, but eventually

It may happen when they can't even go to the Jersey Shore for the weekend because there's overdrawn 200 bucks.

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Kelly Paxton: They don't feel bad.

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Jerri Williams: Have you seen that TV movie with Hugh Jackman called Bad Education.

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Kelly Paxton: Bad Education. Oh, yes.

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Jerri Williams: Yes. Yeah, that's kind of an example you know where they're looking at this woman who works are I guess she works in administration and you know her boss is telling everybody. Don't worry about her, you know what, let's let's let's not try to bring the police into this. Let's not. And the reason we learn at giving away the movie.

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Kelly Paxton: Okay, I'm giving it away.

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Jerri Williams: Boy alert, you know, the reason that he does that is because he's taking money to he's taken more than she has. And so, yeah, it's

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Jerri Williams: Fraud, to me, is fascinating. I mean it is fascinating. And that's why, even as a crime writer all of my books, you know, everybody thinks you know we got a

 Book about an FBI agent. Well that FBI agent isn't chasing down terrorists are chasing down spies are organized crime or, you know, murders are violent crime, all of my

The bad guys and my crime series are all con men and fraudsters and doing corruption, because I'm fascinated by you know how these people operate, you know, as they operate and take other people's money.

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Kelly Paxton: Well, so the superintendent and bad education Frank Tassone was actually on a podcast. You know you and I love podcast. He was on a podcast after the movie came out and he said it all started with two Greek salads and two sodas. He came into work on Monday morning, and no one noticed. now, the more part of the story that I think is funnier or more ironic is the woman who was this sort of administrative person who's played by Allison Janney she actually out stole the superintendent. So one of my three points when I do a presentation is never underestimate a woman. So this woman.

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Kelly Paxton: Even though men generally steal more than women. Women steal more often and you I asked you not to be a leading question  who's which gender is better and embezzlement.

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Jerri Williams: And my answer is definitely women and that is because, you know, from my experience, my investigative experience. There are more trusting and when you have a situation where trust is given the trust is just, you know, I trust you, you wouldn't do anything, you know, to hurt me or steal from me, then it makes the ability to do just that, even easier and and and in some of the cases where I look at embezzlement cases where they're involved in women, as I said, with Susan Barrett

They’re caregivers. They're bringing in brownies and cakes for birthdays and you know they're going out and asking you about your kids and your grandkids and you know at Christmas time.

Maybe they're doing the Christmas shopping for the bosses. They make themselves an integral part of that person or the businesses framework where everybody believes that they are you know just You know, perfect. The perfect employee and all the while underneath all of this facade of trust, you know, fullness. They're stealing you know they're they're taking and taking and taking and nobody is wise. Enough that they don't even notice now.

00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:14.880

Kelly Paxton: Well, in the medical world in the I'm going to say traditional medical world.

 I worked out a gym at a gym where a woman whose husband is now retired ophthalmologist, and she found out what I did and she was fascinated by it and she

 I said, Well, you know, it's like the office manager. And she goes, Oh, you mean THE Doctor second wife, and she's like in the medical world. They call that office manager. The second wife.

And she is the one who goes and she buys the presence for the wife and maybe the presents for the girlfriend. So that's the other thing is that person. Is trusted with information that can

 backfire. It gets the business owner. So when the business owner confronts them if they ever catch it, they're going to say, well, you know what I might call your spouse and tell them about that little apartment, you have downtown for your, you know, whatever. And so you give them that trust and that trust can backfire when they are confronted because these are people who have never been in prison, like

00:36:09.150 --> 00:36:22.560

Kelly Paxton: You know, it's not in their world there. According to the ACFE only 4% of them have criminal histories. Now, in my experience, a lot more of them don't get prosecuted the boss just fires. Right.

00:36:22.740 --> 00:36:34.590

Jerri Williams: Oh, absolutely. You know, that definitely occurs. And again, maybe they do have something to blackmail the boss about but, at most, most of the time.

They don't call the police on the person, because they really have feelings for them, you know, maybe even, you know, as far as a work companion and work.

 Family, they love them and you know they didn't want to. I don't want to see them go to jail until they fired them, which is devastating for for everyone involved. But no, you need to go to jail.

 No, no, you need to be charged with this so that you don't have a clean record that allows you to go into another business where if you get depressed. Are you get mad at the boss, you can do it all over again.

00:37:16.590 --> 00:37:27.630

Kelly Paxton: Oh yeah, I mean, when they just get kicked to the curb and they don't get prosecuted. It's a couple of different things so that people in the business are going to go well I guess I can do that and just get fired if I get caught But then there's the Google effect and the Google effect is when they go to get the next job if there's no record, then you know it's going to happen and they become serial, sort of, you know, serial killers, which is different than I'm going to say honest people steal becauseYeah i mean I can't get out of bed in the morning. If I think that everyone's out there, stealing, I just, I don't want to live in a world where I think that and you and I have seen a lot, but I think good people make bad choices. I also think bad people make good choices. Things happen in a person's life. And who am I to judge. I just, yeah.

00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:15.900

Jerri Williams: Well, I think, I think that's an excellent point too, because you know I'm saying a lot of stuff here and I think that the judgment of the person as a person is something that even in law enforcement, you know, we can't do we can only judge their behavior and request and, you know, try to get consequences for the behavior. And I think that's why it's some

You know, it's good to talk about, you know, people being depressed and as and binge eating when you're depressed you Eat more. Eat more and binge.

embezzlement, you know, when you get depressed. You take more and you take more that that's definitely you know a way to be able to look at this

That can be very helpful when you are doing your investigation and interviewing this person and trying to find out.Everything that they did and account for, you know, being able to go in there in this non judgmental way. You know, you're a very, very bad person, you know, taking that away and just saying You know, I can see that you're hurting a lot and that you know that this is something that before you got to this this particular position. You've never done before, you know, but we're here now and you know let's sit down and talk about what happened and what you did, so excellent point.

00:39:43.020 --> 00:39:49.830

Kelly Paxton: This is so funny because I have this and this had an ex FBI boss and

 I didn an interview one time in his office and he was outside and he hears me laughing Well turns out it was this young man. He had proof on his phone that

He didn't do what he was accused of doing so we're in them, you know, we're kind of laughing and he leaves and my boss comes in ex boss comes in and he's like,

Why are you laughing. There should be no reason you're laughing You should make them cry every he took such joy of making them cry and I'm just like,

 You know what, we're all humans. You don't need to do that. And I will say I was never badge heavy like it's a term in law enforcement to be badge heavy

 As I've matured not going to say age. But as I've matured, you have more experiences in life. And I think you can come into an interview with a much bigger mindset and you get more from it. Would you agree.

00:40:49.620 --> 00:40:52.530

Jerri Williams: Oh, absolutely. I mean, the whole goal of your interview is to gather information and to gather evidence. So if you can do that by making that person feel comfortable with you and sharing alive. Then who really cares But I have to say I didn't. This wasn't my goal. And it wasn't something that I tried to do. But when I could make a grown man cry. I did probably give myself a little you know badge of badge of honor, you know, but it wasn't my goal, but it was always know if I was in an interview and you know a few tears were shed on their side. You know, it was always like, yeah.I'm bad ass. Well,

00:41:41.670 --> 00:42:01.350

Kelly Paxton: So what you just said twice I think is really interesting. You both you said interview both times. Now I listened to a lot of podcasts. I read a lot. And I'm going to go to this is great women in fraud and I think women make excellent, excellent. Investigators because we don't say interrogation.Now use interview and and I'm doing this. I'm doing a practice class for a university and I've had a bunch of young male students do my interviews.

And I just had two women, young female students do the interview and the rapport that they got right off the bat was so different. So this is what

 Yeah, there are differences between men and women. And I think women really like it goes to the caring the trusting, we can use it for good.

00:42:34.830 --> 00:42:38.730

Jerri Williams: We're absolutely, I would say, I can't, I can't think of

 A case that I investigated or an interview that I participated in that I didn't try to

00:42:47.550 --> 00:42:58.740

Jerri Williams: Not, I wouldn't even say build rapport just be real, you know, just be real. And I just did a podcast interview maybe last month.

Where I was talking to the agent and he doesn't even use the word interview. It definitely doesn't use interrogation doesn't use the word interview he uses conversation with purpose.

 And I really like that, you know, if I was still in the FBI today, you know, conducting cases. I think I would start using that just, I'm going to go have a conversation with this person.

 With the purpose of trying to get more information about this case and I'm working on and

 Yeah, I think that's exactly what I did. I just didn't know what to name it. But if you go yeah if you go into a situation. I'm going to go

 Interview this business person or this elected official or this drug dealer or this organized crime figure. I'm going to go have a conversation with them and my purpose is to

 Get as much information from them as I can. That will help me with my investigation that really sets the tone for the Communication that's going to occur between the two of you. I really, really like that.

00:44:06.930 --> 00:44:08.310

Kelly Paxton: Oh, I'm going to copy that if I

00:44:09.570 --> 00:44:16.830

Kelly Paxton: I love that. So I just want to get people to know where to reach out to you. So you've got the podcast.

00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:21.660

Jerri Williams:  you want to get all the information about my media.

 Empire is that yes, yes. Alright, so my media empire starts with the podcast FBI retired case file review and you can access that podcast, wherever you listen to your audio and

Then I also have my nonfiction books FBI myths and misconceptions a manual for armchair detectives and FBI word search puzzles fun for armchair detectives and both of those books are packed with information.

About the FBI FBI policy and procedures investigative tools and techniques you know both of them I think are fun and of course they would make great holiday gifts.

00:45:14.700 --> 00:45:15.630

Kelly Paxton: Out before the holiday.

00:45:15.690 --> 00:45:16.530

Jerri Williams: Okay, great.

00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:29.310

Jerri Williams: And then I have what I would start it my media empire, and I say that with a chuckle and that is my crime fiction. I have my Philadelphia corruption squad.

00:45:29.820 --> 00:45:49.020

Jerri Williams: Series which stars FBI female FBI agent Carrie Wheeler and it's all about her investigating fraud and corruption and conmen, but it is not your typical story. So it's gritty. It's dark. It is

00:45:49.500 --> 00:46:02.700

Jerri Williams: The first one starts out where she's investigating corruption and the Philadelphia strip club industry so it can give you an idea, and it's they're all based on on real cases that happened in the Philadelphia division.

00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:12.810

Jerri Williams: But that gives you an idea of where I go with the story and I am in the process of finishing up the third book and that trilogy. And so if you

00:46:13.170 --> 00:46:19.230

Jerri Williams: You know, like fraud and corruption say American greed type, then those books would be something that you would enjoy and hopefully you know in the near future. I'll be able to tell you about the two TV shows that I am now consulting on that, you know, are not actually part of my own media empire, but definitely in my media empire portfolio.

00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:49.290

Kelly Paxton: This is, this has been so much fun. I'm definitely having you back and I can't wait to hear because you said in the beginning, it was like you read a script in your life.

00:46:49.950 --> 00:47:04.500

Kelly Paxton: That was really good. You know, I just fascinated by that absolutely fascinated by that. So we're going to have you back. If you will be back. And I know where I'm doing some of my Christmas shopping, because this is, this is awesome. So thank you so much, Terry.

00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:16.560

Jerri Williams: Thank you, Kelly and everybody can connect with me at my website, which is Jerry 

00:47:17.700 --> 00:47:20.130

Kelly Paxton: Such a great, great, great episode.