Great Women In Fraud

Episode 39 Rev. and Attorney Jeff Grant, White Collar Week

July 06, 2021 Kelly Paxton, CFE Episode 39
Great Women In Fraud
Episode 39 Rev. and Attorney Jeff Grant, White Collar Week
Show Notes Transcript

Welcome back after a wonderful holiday weekend!  Today we have a Great Dude in Fraud.  Jeff Grant is a true story of an unexpected life.  From being a lawyer to going to prison for SBA fraud related to 9/11 and now getting back his law license.  


I think you will find this episode fascinating on many levels.  Jeff’s podcast, White Collar Week, and his support group has become such a community for people that never thought this could happen to them.


Please take a listen and let me know your thoughts.  As Jeff says,” It’s the isolation that destroys us. The solution is in community.” Spot on.  


Have a great week.  


https://www.linkedin.com/in/revjeffgrant/

https://twitter.com/revjeffgrant

https://prisonist.org/

https://prisonist.org/podcasts/



Welcome back after a holiday weekend. Today we have Jeff Grant, A Great Dude in Fraud. His story is interesting on many different levels because he has been a lawyer, incarcerated, minister and now a lawyer again. I met him online due to his work with the White Collar Week and prisonist.org. If you think you or your client are too small a fish for the government to go after he is case one for that not being the truth.  Let’s get going.



00:00:02.429 --> 00:00:19.080
Kelly Paxton: We are so lucky to have Jeff Grant here today, and you know he is a great dude in fraud, not a great woman in fraud but we're not we're equal opportunity here, so we are going to quickly start today with our speed round Jeff and are you ready with your buzzer.



00:00:19.230 --> 00:00:21.000
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I am ready for your speed round Kelly.



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Kelly Paxton: MAC or PC.



00:00:25.050 --> 00:00:26.580
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I am MAC.



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Kelly Paxton: Okay, we are six for six.



00:00:29.940 --> 00:00:32.490
Kelly Paxton: That means let's go buy more Apple stock.



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Kelly Paxton: Who makes better embezzlers women or men?



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I would say that women are better but men are much more prolific.



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Kelly Paxton: Okay, oh wait yeah you're right in there, too, and then the final speed round question.



00:00:57.000 --> 00:01:02.550
Kelly Paxton: Is a crook, or a cop, that you would love to have dinner with, and they can be alive or dead.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I would say.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Richard Nixon.



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Kelly Paxton: ooh that is an interesting one.



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Kelly Paxton: yeah and can you tell me why.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: yeah because I think that it would be really interesting to find out why someone who's reached the pinnacle of power, still have to self sabotage.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Because I find self sabotage so much.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: involved in people's stories and you would think that there would be a time when you'd stop doing that in your life, but maybe not.



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Kelly Paxton: yeah.



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Kelly Paxton: that's a good one, I like that one definitely definitely like that one so we've jumped right into the speed round, but Jeff why don't you give us your and I call it the Eiffel Tower.



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Kelly Paxton: Things to Abby Ellin Eiffel Tower elevator speech.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Sure um I'm a white collar criminal, who has recently had his law license reinstated so that's My big news.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: How did I go from being a very successful lawyer with offices in New York, having 20 people work for me to the depths of drug addiction and despair criminality.



00:02:28.170 --> 00:02:44.490
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Mostly was through prescription to opioids prescription opioids which I took for 10 years other mental health challenges I had that I was probably self medicating for specifically bipolar disorder.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And then.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I kept making bad decision after bad decision, driven by insanity.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: of drugs until I.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: commingled client funds in my law firm in trying to save myself, I took out a disaster loan post 911 SBA loan



00:03:09.540 --> 00:03:19.440
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And light on the application said I had an office close to ground zero when I didn't. And active absolute insanity because I would have gotten the money anyway.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And then, in July of 2002 I resigned my law license in that night tried to kill myself with an overdose of opioids, and that is that's Chapter one.



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Kelly Paxton: wow yeah but let's your Chapter two, because I know it gets better.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: It does get better um Chapter two was I went to rehab in recovery.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Had a drink or a drug it'll be in this august will be 19 years started on the road to recovery went to recovery meetings, two, three, sometimes four times a day.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: In 2004 I was arrested in connection with the.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: With the false information I gave on that loan took another two years to play into get sentence that reported to prison in.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: In April of 2006 I served it Allenwood at Allenwood low security correctional institution until.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: June of 2007 so that was almost 14 months three years of federal probation.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: During probation I decided, I wanted to go to seminary I applied to Union Theological Seminary in Manhattan they built themselves as the preeminent urban seminary in the world and that's probably true.



00:04:51.780 --> 00:04:55.260
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: The fact that they accepted me is crazy because.



00:04:57.270 --> 00:05:06.210
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I was a felon who had served time at that point, but they took a chance on me. I came out  and I started working in churches and then with my wife Lynn Springer.



00:05:06.870 --> 00:05:09.450
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: We founded the world's first Ministry.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: To support white collar criminals and their families did that, for a few years and went on a speaking tour of conferences and guest preached in churches in our magazine articles and TV TV spots and.



00:05:23.340 --> 00:05:30.390
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: because everybody loves a good white collar story, and certainly mine was unfolding as we went at that point.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: In.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Family re- entry a large Connecticut criminal justice nonprofit not white collar I'm serving on the board, they asked me to become their.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Their executive director and CEO so I was the first person in the country, who hasve been incarcerated for white collar crime to be made the.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: head of a major criminal justice organization did that, for a couple of years, while I helped them straighten their finances around.



00:05:58.710 --> 00:06:14.520
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: came out and was doing the ministry again for white collar criminals and their families, full time until May 5 of this year, which was about four weeks ago when the appellate division of the State of New York reinstated my law license, so I am a lawyer again.



00:06:15.660 --> 00:06:17.250
Kelly Paxton: CINCO de Mayo.



00:06:17.520 --> 00:06:19.650
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: CINCO de Mayo, it was a good to Maya.



00:06:20.220 --> 00:06:21.840
Kelly Paxton: But you didn't have a Margarita.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Margarita not even close, I think I had sushi.



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Kelly Paxton: I know you had reached out to me before it was public and I was just so happy for you.



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Kelly Paxton: And you know my whole story, and I have issues with lawyers and.



00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:55.170
Kelly Paxton: I think that you getting to be a lawyer, again, is so incredibly important for not only you, but your clients, but people.



00:06:55.980 --> 00:07:08.220
Kelly Paxton: Unfortunately, will kind of really only want to pay for the lawyer part of it, and I think it's only fair that you are paid for your expertise, because no one has your expertise.



00:07:09.510 --> 00:07:30.270
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: it's kind of weird Kelly, that I am almost alone as a, you know as a as a class of person who committed a white collar crime got my license back, but I was general counsel to some major real estate companies so I've been counseling.



00:07:31.530 --> 00:07:37.920
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Closely held and family owned businesses and their owners, for almost 40 years now, in one way or another.



00:07:38.400 --> 00:07:54.090
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So that skill set along with running a law firm and re entry and recovery in ministry and running criminal justice nonprofit I'm putting that, all together, I hope, and having the lived experience obviously have.



00:07:55.500 --> 00:08:00.150
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: been through the system and been to prison, hopefully, what it gives me is this kind of



00:08:01.320 --> 00:08:10.830
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: empathy and skill set combined where I can really offer a difference to people who are going through.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: These issues and, by the way, also for.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Our professional partners, because I know that you know you and I have talked about this before.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: there's so many components in representing people and putting on a proper presentation and whether that be forensics investigation forensic accounting.



00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:50.280
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: mitigation experts psychiatric reports drug and alcohol reports, putting it all together in a proper presentation it can't be done unless the resources are.



00:08:51.300 --> 00:09:10.230
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: are fairly divided in a way, and allocated in a way, where all of those things can be can be presented in in some ways the lawyer, the lawyer is not a subject matter expert I happen to be because of my experience but.



00:09:11.430 --> 00:09:26.730
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: most cases the lawyer is the person who presents the evidence offers the evidence in a cohesive way, but if you don't have the evidence, if you don't have the experts, if you haven't invested in in that then.



00:09:27.090 --> 00:09:31.710
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: it's just the lawyer and his clients saying so, and without support.



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Kelly Paxton: Oh yeah preach on that one because I kind of equate it to the lawyer is the coach.



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Kelly Paxton: Or maybe the general manager.



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Kelly Paxton: And you know it's so important to have that I mean.



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Kelly Paxton: So funny I just got a referral for a case, the other day and it's a small embezzlement and a lawyer referred it to me, and it was in a group message.



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Kelly Paxton: And all of a sudden another lawyer pops up and says, well, I do that stuff all the time, so I googled the lawyer, of course.



00:10:04.050 --> 00:10:27.720
Kelly Paxton: And it's like he's an estate and tax planning lawyer like I'm sorry embezzlement is not his specialty like it was like Okay, no not yeah so um that's hard, because people I mean working with clients I've had clients who you know.



00:10:28.740 --> 00:10:41.070
Kelly Paxton: They get the lawyer and they think the lawyer can do it all, and they can't you have to you have to have the subject matter, experts and you know that.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: yeah you also have to frankly, you have to make sure that you're with the right lawyer and it's it's hard to know that when you're in trauma.



00:10:51.030 --> 00:11:01.860
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So someone gets arrested and they start to panic and I know because I was one of them, but I've at this point, worked with over 500 people who've who've been through it.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: As a minister and, as a lawyer and.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: They reach out immediately for help and just want the pain to go away.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So they call their brother in law they call their corporate lawyer, they call their doctor they call, whoever they call someone who's been through it before.



00:11:20.910 --> 00:11:27.060
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And everyone says the same thing to him oh you got to call this lawyer he's unbelievable he's the best because, for some reason, people have this.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: attachment to wanting to give out referrals and information, and so the person who's been arrested runs to the lawyers office and the lawyer.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And they have no idea if it's the right lawyer, they don't even know that.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: They don't need to retain a lawyer forever at that point what they need is just to get through the basics, maybe through arraignment you know they don't necessarily need to make a permanent decision, but in too many cases, what happens is is that they.



00:11:58.140 --> 00:12:00.810
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: they're looking for a savior and here's someone who can stop the.



00:12:00.810 --> 00:12:02.760
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: pain and.



00:12:04.020 --> 00:12:16.260
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So they invest a large amount of money in that situation right away, and it could take them months, sometimes even years to kind of back off and say wait a second you know I wouldn't have surgery.



00:12:16.770 --> 00:12:29.550
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: With with a doctor without getting a second opinion like what's going on here, but people want the pain to stop and they don't know that no matter what they do, no matter what the circumstances are no matter what they're.



00:12:29.580 --> 00:12:43.170
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: told that pain is not going to stop anytime soon in fact it's probably going to get worse and they're just too much trauma to understand it, and so, hopefully, what I'm offering is.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Not just a sympathetic and empathetic year, but I want to actually.



00:12:52.410 --> 00:13:05.010
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: help people, by becoming their private general counsel help them navigate these waters and hire the right professionals and sometimes What that means is is that we're vetting multiple.



00:13:06.030 --> 00:13:15.210
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Criminal Defense lawyers, because we're trying to find the right fit we're trying to right not not just right in terms of background, but also the right fit in terms of.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: of chemistry, because it takes a team and we've done that a little bit in the ministry probably more than a little bit, but now, as you say.



00:13:28.560 --> 00:13:37.170
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: There there's a certain authority with with lawyers who are advocating, on behalf of clients even to other lawyers.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So I'm really excited about that and that that started as I think I told you, before we even got on the air that this has been like shot, out of a cannon there's so much latent demand and also I've spent 10 or 15 years.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: of goodwill really not charging people you know just doing.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: doing good works, and so the phone calls are just.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: texting Twitter.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: tweets and everything are just coming in, by like crazy and I feel blessed to be able to help people.



00:14:14.310 --> 00:14:25.650
Kelly Paxton: I am so happy for you, because that you have to have that sort of person and it's really hard when I mean the people who are white collar criminals.



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Kelly Paxton: Generally, and you know, I think that this is a true statement they haven't dealt with the law enforcement system they.



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Kelly Paxton: Their world have come crashing down, whereas you if you get someone who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, or who had a family that was in and out of jail or prison that's normal for them, but when you get someone who is it that you know height of their profession or just you know.



00:14:52.230 --> 00:15:06.300
Kelly Paxton: The Community looks up to him or her as a success and their world is now you know the higher you up the harder, the fall and so that trauma is.



00:15:07.920 --> 00:15:14.700
Kelly Paxton: Even much more, and you know I don't want to lessen it for the people who you know didn't reach the pinnacle like that.



00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:24.840
Kelly Paxton: Because it's still traumatic but they see their associates around them and they're like well yeah you know I'm going to get three hots and a Cot, it will be okay i'll be out in a year or two.



00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:44.730
Kelly Paxton: But these are people who you know, some of them may have their names on buildings and and in their kids or you know, and so, for them to make the front page of the Wall Street Journal, or you know the local newspaper it's it's it's a different type of trauma, would you agree.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: yeah it's a different type of trauma and what happens to is the view they're used to relying upon a set of skills and personality attributes that's made them very successful you know they're usually charismatic.



00:16:05.880 --> 00:16:08.640
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: At the least some of them narcissistic.



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Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: But they're very, very smart accomplish usually good good to great schools, a lot of business contacts, they know how to think out of the box or they know how to take disparate facts or issues and put them together in ways that nobody else can think of, which is how they're making money.



00:16:33.690 --> 00:16:39.750
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: When they're making it legally arm and so you can understand why.



00:16:41.070 --> 00:16:56.520
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: They think they can think themselves out of the problem that there's actually an intellectual way to go through this problem and what they they don't understand, yet, but they will is that it's more like.



00:16:56.790 --> 00:16:58.230
Kelly Paxton: Boarding a plane to.



00:16:58.230 --> 00:16:58.980
Manchuria.



00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:05.670
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And you get off the plane dimension area, it does make a difference, how smart, you are how accomplished anything when you get off the plane.



00:17:06.450 --> 00:17:14.160
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: You don't speak the language you don't have any of their money in your pocket you don't know how you don't want you don't know what their culture is about.



00:17:14.850 --> 00:17:34.530
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And anything you do could wind up getting used against you, you need you need a tour guide, you need someone to pick you up at the airport and and and navigate for you, and yet here you have people who really want to rely upon the very set of.



00:17:35.700 --> 00:17:52.260
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: attributes that got them into trouble in the first place, and these are a lot of them are corporate guys but they're lawyers and doctors and everything else, but at least you know, one of the core corporate one one would be that you would never charge.



00:17:53.520 --> 00:18:01.530
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: The people in a corporation who created the problem you would never charged them with solving the problem you bring in a new team you'd bring in fresh eyes.



00:18:02.250 --> 00:18:11.490
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: But here are people who have created their own problems sometimes there are outside influences that are beyond their control but generally they've created their own problems.



00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:18.480
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And they're trying to solve their own problems and the very first thing they're trying to do is they're trying to find.



00:18:19.020 --> 00:18:32.190
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Not the basics for the team, not the they're trying to find the trying to find the the mvp quarterback right out of the gate as if they can even figure who, that is, and there's a lot of issues that relate to it.



00:18:33.360 --> 00:18:44.070
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So I think in answering your question, yes there's a lot of trauma but there's reliance upon on things that are not going to serve them, not in this situation, and they just don't know it.



00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:49.080
Kelly Paxton: yeah that's a good way of putting it so um do you want billions.



00:18:49.530 --> 00:18:49.860
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Because.



00:18:50.340 --> 00:18:51.240
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I love billions.



00:18:51.330 --> 00:18:51.960
Kelly Paxton: As of today.



00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.250
Kelly Paxton: Are you team check road or are you team Bobby axelrod.



00:18:56.910 --> 00:19:01.050
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: This is so interesting because I'm really team wags.



00:19:02.910 --> 00:19:04.830
Kelly Paxton: Oh, my gosh team wag.



00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:14.010
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I'm really team wags, because the truth is, is that to do what I do well, you have to be a great number two.



00:19:15.390 --> 00:19:24.660
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: You have to really be able to understand, create a plan execute the plan and then remember who is the boss.



00:19:25.950 --> 00:19:26.580
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So.



00:19:28.320 --> 00:19:31.950
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Without wags Bobby axelrod can't do what he does.



00:19:32.970 --> 00:19:38.400
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And it's up it's a partnership it's arrangement I'm.



00:19:39.630 --> 00:19:41.340
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: that's why I'm that's why I've always been.



00:19:42.360 --> 00:19:42.930
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: and



00:19:43.260 --> 00:19:50.820
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Interesting yeah and and I know that I think that what chuck chuck's problem is, you know the.



00:19:52.290 --> 00:20:07.260
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: The chuck roads problem is that he doesn't have a good number two he doesn't have a number two at all, really, and I think bobby's strongest the strongest part about Bobby is that he knows he needs that number two.



00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:08.880
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: and



00:20:09.150 --> 00:20:13.860
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: He wouldn't navigate as smart, as he is he wouldn't try to navigate the water without number two.



00:20:13.860 --> 00:20:33.300
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: strapped to his leg so I'm that's kind of a pitch it's kind of a recommendation, you know, like it's it's it's piranha infested water out there, why wouldn't you have why wouldn't, you have the biggest best shark you can get who's protecting you from the from the predators.



00:20:36.840 --> 00:20:40.410
Kelly Paxton: Well that's interesting because tucking does try to get a number two, but he.



00:20:40.410 --> 00:20:41.520
Kelly Paxton: can't keep a number to.



00:20:43.500 --> 00:20:46.650
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Keep the I mean there's no there's no loyalty.



00:20:48.750 --> 00:20:55.620
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: yeah because I just think the interesting you Bobby has more loyalty to his number two then chuck does that's part of the paradox.



00:20:57.570 --> 00:21:03.060
Kelly Paxton: yeah yeah that's I have not thought of it that way, but I liked the team wax.



00:21:03.270 --> 00:21:06.720
Kelly Paxton: And I think that, even though he's kind of a horrific character.



00:21:09.810 --> 00:21:14.220
Kelly Paxton: he's so funny so I'm waiting I'm looking for to start back up again.



00:21:14.370 --> 00:21:16.950
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And I've met him in person actually the.



00:21:17.190 --> 00:21:27.780
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: know that at least one of the show runners but maybe both of the show runners for that show live in Greenwich David levine lives in Greenwich in fact his.



00:21:28.890 --> 00:21:29.430
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: His.



00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:42.390
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Child or children went to Greenwich country day with my step daughter, and so we were invited to the billions initial premiere.



00:21:43.080 --> 00:21:53.670
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: At the performing arts Center cruncher grads country day, and so the show runners were there, and some of the actors were there, and so I guess, this was this may have been.



00:21:54.840 --> 00:21:56.100
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: This may have been after.



00:21:56.610 --> 00:22:02.070
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: After season, one I just can't remember because I knew, because I knew the character wax at that point, so I got so I got to talk to David.



00:22:03.150 --> 00:22:08.250
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: quite a bit about about his character, it was fantastic and he was great he was great.



00:22:09.210 --> 00:22:14.460
Kelly Paxton: Well, and I'm just I'm not sure I'm trying to Google it that my computer is just something's wrong today.



00:22:16.110 --> 00:22:25.140
Kelly Paxton: Oh yeah so he went to Gonzaga college high school and tufts university, I thought he had been out in Oregon for a bit, but I might be confused.



00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:29.190
Kelly Paxton: huh so, but he did grow up in Washington.



00:22:29.370 --> 00:22:33.840
Kelly Paxton: uh huh yeah so um oh that's so funny small small world.


00:22:34.050 --> 00:22:40.440
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: yeah I told you my wife is from Washington State there I know we discussed this once my.



00:22:41.820 --> 00:22:44.040
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: My wife's family is from.



00:22:45.300 --> 00:22:53.250
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Eastern Washington spokane area my wife is actually my wife was actually born in in Moscow Idaho.



00:22:53.970 --> 00:22:55.350
Kelly Paxton: Oh OK.



00:22:55.500 --> 00:23:02.850
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And then, and then with her nuclear family they they live I'm puget sound.



00:23:03.810 --> 00:23:04.890
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Oh, oh yeah.



00:23:05.070 --> 00:23:05.760
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: yeah so I'm.



00:23:06.900 --> 00:23:09.300
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Until about high school, he was a washingtonian.



00:23:09.990 --> 00:23:16.350
Kelly Paxton: Okay, oh small world again so he was actually born in DC so I got that wrong but.



00:23:17.370 --> 00:23:32.550
Kelly Paxton: uh yeah billions in Okay, I wrote this at the beginning, when you were talking about your you know what led you to federal prison, and you can agree or disagree with me, but I was a federal agent and.



00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:35.880
Kelly Paxton: That you were low hanging fruit.



00:23:37.350 --> 00:23:43.140
Kelly Paxton: I mean, he didn't do a huge scam What would you consider yourself low hanging fruit.



00:23:43.470 --> 00:23:45.690
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I was the lowest hanging fruit, you could get.



00:23:46.950 --> 00:24:03.390
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Just just like SBA PPP ideal alone fraud now will be the lowest hanging fruit for years it's very, very easy to detect very easy to investigate very easy to prosecute.



00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:15.120
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: it's you can't get more low hanging fruit that I was, I mean the the the issue back then, I think, was not that.



00:24:17.010 --> 00:24:21.780
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I was being prosecuted for SBA loan fraud, I mean that was my problem but.



00:24:23.100 --> 00:24:32.400
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: It was that it was 911 related so it was a huge national emergency or national.



00:24:33.540 --> 00:24:38.130
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: problem that I had taken advantage of and.



00:24:39.360 --> 00:24:47.340
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So there was no way that I was going to get any real leniency at the time, you know, there was just too close I was sentence, the.



00:24:48.750 --> 00:24:51.690
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: orion I played a couple of years after it.



00:24:52.770 --> 00:24:53.310
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And when I.



00:24:54.330 --> 00:24:58.980
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: When I turned myself into the federal marshals I did it down in Manhattan Manhattan is still a.



00:25:00.210 --> 00:25:01.830
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: militarized zone, you know with.



00:25:02.010 --> 00:25:03.150
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: checkpoints and.



00:25:03.150 --> 00:25:05.610
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: mirrors under cars barriers.



00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:17.580
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: submachine guns and armed personnel and it was so you know, there was there was no way that I wasn't going to be prosecuted in that light.



00:25:18.510 --> 00:25:32.040
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So I expected to go to prison, even though had it been more of a benign situation you know say even some of these disaster loans posts a Katrina or post.



00:25:33.360 --> 00:25:34.620
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: superstorm sandy.



00:25:37.320 --> 00:25:45.960
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: The probably could have expected a different kind of leniency and sentencing generally but um.



00:25:47.610 --> 00:25:50.160
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Now we're in another situation here post.



00:25:51.840 --> 00:25:59.550
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Post pandemic and probably for the next five years or more, where I think we can expect prosecutions to.



00:26:00.990 --> 00:26:03.090
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: triple maybe more than that.



00:26:04.770 --> 00:26:23.310
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: In general they'll triple so the volume that have from Obama to Biden, and I mean Obama to trump and from trump, which was the lowest prosecution levels in modern day I think it would be reasonable to think it's going to be three or four times that amount.



00:26:25.410 --> 00:26:32.550
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And so anybody looking at the internals of what that means means that's the number of prosecutions, not the fact that there are.




00:26:33.390 --> 00:26:40.920
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Multiple defendants multiple needs for retention of attorneys in each case, sometimes.




00:26:41.580 --> 00:26:50.880
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So we're looking at the potential for hundreds of thousands of relatively hope high profile situations low hanging fruit, but still.




00:26:51.600 --> 00:27:02.910
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: high profile where anyone tends to live, if you live in a small town or you live in a city, other than one of the four or five major financial areas, you know you gotta be on the front page.




00:27:04.170 --> 00:27:17.190
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: know even though it's low hanging so it's just the way it is I've been through it and and virtually everyone in our support group which we haven't discussed yet Kelly, but.




00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:36.090
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Almost everyone in our support group has has been through it and there is a way to get through it with grace and dignity, although you don't believe it at the time, and certainly now i'd like to stand as some kind of power of example that if you work hard and do the right things.




00:27:37.170 --> 00:27:43.290
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: You can work your way back in my case, to my profession, which is very, very rare but.




00:27:44.310 --> 00:27:47.760
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: You know if that means that I helped to break a glass ceiling that's wonderful so.




00:27:49.050 --> 00:28:01.500
Kelly Paxton: So let's talk about your support group and starting with how many people are you know just as a you know ballpark number percentage look at like.




00:28:03.450 --> 00:28:05.970
Kelly Paxton: You know, you and I both know Thom hartmann very well.




00:28:06.060 --> 00:28:11.760
Kelly Paxton: And you know I'm kind of like Well he didn't get a good lawyer, he was low hanging fruit.




00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:26.340
Kelly Paxton: And he's in an environment where they can't go after Steve Cohen, because Steve Cohen, is untouchable, so how many people have that sort of sense of like why me why don't they go after the bigger fish.




00:28:27.750 --> 00:28:32.520
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I think everybody passes through that you know that could be a five stages of grief.




00:28:34.350 --> 00:28:36.270
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: issue you know denial.




00:28:38.220 --> 00:28:40.200
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I think, almost everybody passes through that.




00:28:41.790 --> 00:28:52.110
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Some people it's hard to get into acceptance, the the acceptance is that from the moment you're tapped on the shoulder by law enforcement.




00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:57.810
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: or your become investigated by some other.




00:28:59.580 --> 00:29:03.060
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: governmental entity your life changes forever.




00:29:04.470 --> 00:29:05.100
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: and




00:29:06.270 --> 00:29:15.420
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Getting in acceptance about that is critical, but it could take a long time so most people when they when they come to me.




00:29:16.080 --> 00:29:25.650
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: they're there in that amorphous place in the middle, where they're mourning the past but they're afraid of the future, or they think they have no future.




00:29:26.190 --> 00:29:39.690
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And so they're in this place but they're not quite an acceptance and they're asking all kinds of you know, direct and abstract questions like why me, and why not the guy sitting in the in the at the desk next to me.




00:29:41.070 --> 00:30:08.880
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And the answer is because that's how it is and nothing you do nothing you pray for nothing you, you know magic potion that you're up together, nothing is going to change that the only thing that you can do is to move forward and hopefully as holistically as possible.




00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:12.960
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Let me explain what I mean by that and then i'll go into the into the support group.




00:30:14.370 --> 00:30:14.790
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: um.




00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:22.860
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: My mission for the last 10 years has basically been to bring a different level of.




00:30:23.700 --> 00:30:28.800
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: of understanding to people who are going through prosecutions for white collar crimes and their families.




00:30:29.310 --> 00:30:42.210
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So what happens is is that, as we discussed at the top of the show is that all of their time their energy their resources are basically devoted towards the criminal lawyer and trying to stay out of prison.




00:30:43.530 --> 00:31:01.740
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: But there's no one there guiding them to the hundreds of other decisions that they have to make, and just in law itself, I could just rattle off a bunch of bankruptcy lawyers divorce lawyers real estate lawyers tax attorneys.




00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:09.960
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And all kinds of other professionals accountants and making decisions, all of what you're going to not only have.




00:31:10.590 --> 00:31:22.110
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: short term ramifications but we'll all have long term ramifications, and what we'd like to prevent this someone from waking up a decade later because he's things do take that long, it could take a decade to come.




00:31:23.340 --> 00:31:38.280
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: For the come into the situation have the situation resolved, maybe prison, maybe not and then and then to get back on your feet, it could take a decade, it could and what you don't want to be is, at the end of that decade, looking back and saying you know.




00:31:39.390 --> 00:31:51.030
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: If I had known then what I know now I would have made different decisions and that's true 100% of the time unless you invest in a community of people.




00:31:51.600 --> 00:32:05.730
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Who and turn yourself over to a community of people who've been through it, so that was the purpose that was the impetus for the support group when we started about five and a half years ago, because this Monday night will be our.




00:32:06.840 --> 00:32:10.590
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: 260 first online meeting.




00:32:12.060 --> 00:32:18.780
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So the technology was such five and a half years ago, when we started that um.




00:32:19.980 --> 00:32:30.270
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: You know, it was it was presume, it was, but it was early online conferencing, and we had all these people who had been reaching out and who were some of them were in the ministry, some of them weren't.




00:32:30.990 --> 00:32:39.780
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And, but they've been reaching out and they were all that kind of living in isolation in their own little boxes their lawyers would let him talk to anyone else, maybe they couldn't talk to their spouses.




00:32:40.830 --> 00:32:46.020
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: They were alone and afraid and we just had this idea what if we kind of create a.




00:32:47.310 --> 00:32:49.560
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: A 12 step like.




00:32:50.610 --> 00:33:02.550
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: place for people to gather and do it once a week and see how it works out, and so we tried it at the time, I think it was on gotomeeting I think that was our first platform and.




00:33:03.900 --> 00:33:13.350
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: It had a long slow build as we, as we were trying to figure out what the right ways to do things were and and but we wound up.




00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:15.150
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: With.




00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:17.910
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Almost 360.




00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:37.530
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: participant participants are we average somewhere on 25 every Monday night and the big the big sea change in it was at during the pandemic, because you know we always had somewhat of an adoption program adoption problem.




00:33:39.360 --> 00:33:48.210
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: People weren't sure they wanted to really come online and talk about their problems or share or show their faces which they don't have to do, by the way.




00:33:48.810 --> 00:33:57.930
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: But since now that we're in the new zoom world you know the pandemic world we don't have any adoption problems are all and it just it just took off.




00:33:58.470 --> 00:34:08.550
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So we're we have a full complement of people every Monday night and now, people are splitting off and developing relationships and talking amongst themselves and.




00:34:09.030 --> 00:34:18.660
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And it's really grown to be a community of people with this common issue and hooked on so much solace and so much comfort and so much.




00:34:20.130 --> 00:34:27.660
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Information some so many actual resources to be able to share and what a gift that is to not only.




00:34:29.070 --> 00:34:39.030
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: lead this but to be some be a member, I mean I'm I'm someone who has my own issues that I need to discuss with other people.




00:34:39.060 --> 00:34:41.160
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: who've been through it and.




00:34:42.120 --> 00:34:50.250
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: These things never go away the trauma, you know it kind of ebbs and flows and so on every day I'm on the phone with people who.




00:34:50.640 --> 00:34:59.400
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: are either calling up now, because they need a lawyer or the or they want to consult or enemy or I'm calling up or they're calling up because.




00:34:59.880 --> 00:35:12.750
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: They want to talk to someone from the Ministry, or they just want to connect with people who understand their problems and can counsel them through it, so this has been the greatest gift of my life.




00:35:13.860 --> 00:35:17.880
Kelly Paxton: So I don't want to butcher it what's your tagline because I really love your tagline.




00:35:19.020 --> 00:35:21.510
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Oh I'm gonna want to put your either.




00:35:24.930 --> 00:35:25.710
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: A better look it up.




00:35:27.300 --> 00:35:30.240
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I better look it up my tagline our tagline is.




00:35:32.010 --> 00:35:37.200
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Our tagline is it's the isolation that destroys us, the solution is in community.




00:35:39.090 --> 00:35:48.270
Kelly Paxton: And that is so true like um I I have been on reddit and there's like a reddit embezzlement but like I don't know if there's a reddit white collar criminal.




00:35:48.870 --> 00:35:50.610
Kelly Paxton: You know one there might be.




00:35:52.290 --> 00:35:55.590
Kelly Paxton: But you've you've made one yourself, which.




00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:10.290
Kelly Paxton: You know I that I always say money is replaceable it's the trust that is so much harder to regain and that's usually on the victim side, but even I've had you know suspects and perpetrators who.




00:36:12.150 --> 00:36:23.940
Kelly Paxton: Martha Stewart I doubt, she would say it was the best thing that ever happened to her when she went to prison because everyone gets wrong why she went to prison, they say Oh, she was an insider trader I'm like no she wasn't she got caught lying to federal agents.




00:36:24.540 --> 00:36:36.750
Kelly Paxton: um and I don't think she will ever say publicly, it was the best thing, but there are good things that come out of that experience as a victim or as a perpetrator, would you agree.




00:36:38.640 --> 00:36:39.120
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: um.




00:36:42.600 --> 00:36:50.730
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: You know it's it's a tough question to answer because so much of what you talk about with people is revisionist.




00:36:52.200 --> 00:36:52.620
Kelly Paxton: yeah.




00:36:52.830 --> 00:36:57.390
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: You know, like people will say oh prison is the best thing that ever happened to me.




00:36:58.410 --> 00:36:59.790
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And they.




00:37:00.030 --> 00:37:02.640
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And they may actually even believe it for a while.




00:37:03.510 --> 00:37:03.960
But.




00:37:05.520 --> 00:37:16.800
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: If they really searched themselves I think what they'd be finding is that something had to stop them from the way they were living their lives.




00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:37.290
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And this, this was the disrupter you're getting arrested was a disrupter coming under investigation from the SEC, or whatever it happens to be something had to disrupt it and I get it, because my life needed disrupting I was, I was on a suicide mission, but um.




00:37:38.370 --> 00:37:43.530
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: You know it, whether or not prison is actually the best thing um.




00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:45.930
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I would say that.




00:37:47.100 --> 00:37:55.350
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: that's probably not a really well informed thought um but.




00:37:56.790 --> 00:38:07.140
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: We could probably spend an entire episode just on what would be a better thing than prison to solve.




00:38:08.190 --> 00:38:21.000
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: A mass incarceration issues and and the subset of that being you know white collar crime financial fraud crimes, what would be a better way and.




00:38:22.740 --> 00:38:26.370
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I could probably you and I could probably talk about that for hours.




00:38:26.700 --> 00:38:26.970
Kelly Paxton: Oh yeah.




00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:31.050
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: But, but those things are just generally not available.




00:38:32.130 --> 00:38:42.870
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: So I think that the people who are most fortunate are the people who can fashion their own rehabilitation, because the rehabilitation isn't really available in prison, but there are people who are.




00:38:43.770 --> 00:38:55.290
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Who are insightful enough who understand that they have to fashion themselves in new life and they can start immediately in my case.




00:38:56.160 --> 00:39:07.770
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I went to prison, I was almost four years sober and I had already been to thousands of of a meetings so I knew that prison was part of my recovery.




00:39:08.580 --> 00:39:15.510
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I didn't view it as a punishment I viewed it as an inevitable part of my recovery, so that that.




00:39:16.170 --> 00:39:27.870
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: said, I was able to wake up every day and understand there are things I need to do in my recovery and my goal was to come out of prison celebrate my fifth sobriety anniversary, and then move my life forward.




00:39:29.130 --> 00:39:38.910
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: For me, for me it was relatively easy to have that understanding, most people don't get sober until they're at the door the prison.




00:39:39.870 --> 00:39:48.960
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: they're there they're drinking or drugging or doing whatever they're doing if that's their issue because you know they're they're there, this is there's a lot of stress.




00:39:49.830 --> 00:40:06.960
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: For me yeah for me I needed the structure, I needed the the place to go I you know, for me, a what's a place where that would accept me where no one else or nothing else in the world would do that and so to move from that.




00:40:07.020 --> 00:40:07.590
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: To.




00:40:07.680 --> 00:40:16.590
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: A different form of community, which was in prison and then to move to a different form of Community which we had a fashion ourselves through a ministry and through a support group.




00:40:18.150 --> 00:40:23.550
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: It was just kind of that understanding that this is a, this is a path to freedom, but.




00:40:24.780 --> 00:40:27.600
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Martha I mean she Martha Stewart is.




00:40:28.890 --> 00:40:32.580
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Is you know she's she's not a great example.




00:40:33.630 --> 00:40:34.110
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Of.




00:40:35.850 --> 00:40:36.900
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: of giving back.




00:40:38.250 --> 00:40:44.880
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: pain of paying it forward and does not saying anything negative a better because frankly anybody who goes through these things.




00:40:45.270 --> 00:40:54.660
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And you got to find your way back into the world, I support you, whatever your path is I support you, you know this is life is tough enough without getting.




00:40:55.500 --> 00:41:02.010
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Any kind of judgment from someone else who's been through it, you know I don't judge anybody, but what we really do need.




00:41:02.550 --> 00:41:11.790
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Are people who have resources to be able to invest them in the community of people who really need to get their lives back together.




00:41:12.510 --> 00:41:29.100
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And to do that, it means that you have to risk that that tag of being a white collar criminal you got a risk that tag being attached to you, you know forever, potentially, and I think that the.




00:41:30.570 --> 00:41:39.900
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: crazy part is that that tag is there anyway it's like you never lose it, I wish you did, but you don't so.




00:41:41.430 --> 00:41:51.300
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Martha you know if you're listening to this, I know that you've accepted your situation because I've seen you on some of those comedy channel roofs.




00:41:51.930 --> 00:42:03.270
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And they make fun of the fact that you've been to prison, and you laugh at yourself well if you're actually willing to laugh at yourself and laugh at your situation and and then why not.




00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:13.680
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Take some of that huge resources that huge large jess that God has showered upon you, and invested in the people who can't find their way back.




00:42:14.610 --> 00:42:25.470
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: or at least not so easily and maybe we can make this a better world for everybody, so there's the you know there's the big idea there's the there's the great idea that you know the.




00:42:26.550 --> 00:42:44.910
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Reid Hoffman from linkedin you know his masters of scale podcasts you know it's always asking you know does does this does this idea does the world need this idea and the answer is yes, the world needs this idea, we need the idea to.




00:42:46.050 --> 00:42:46.980
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: pay it forward and.




00:42:48.240 --> 00:42:55.830
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: help people and lift them up with the resources that we've been able to garner so that's part of my job now.




00:42:56.670 --> 00:43:10.170
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I'm not you know I'm still a I may be a lawyer again but I'm still a minister I'm still out there, advocating for for the best of all possible conditions for everybody who's been through this situation and their families.




00:43:11.460 --> 00:43:23.220
Kelly Paxton: So you mentioned, their families, what is the percentage of people that split when something like this happens, like, I mean anecdotally do you think or maybe statistics on it.




00:43:24.330 --> 00:43:29.550
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: it's huge I can't tell you we don't I don't have statistics on it.




00:43:31.110 --> 00:43:36.030
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Although we're in the process of talking to researchers and academics about some.




00:43:37.470 --> 00:43:47.070
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: White Papers and that may be one of the outcomes that we're actually going to measure is is how, through Community.




00:43:48.750 --> 00:43:56.970
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: We can we can help to keep families together, and so I would dare say that people have a better chance of keeping their their their.




00:43:57.480 --> 00:44:09.060
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Their family together if they come into a Community setting and they they turn themselves over to Community based resources but um it's a huge problem.




00:44:09.750 --> 00:44:20.820
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And then, and then to it's easy to see I'm not just that the spouses and the children are victims but it's also easy to see that they've been victims, for a long time.




00:44:22.140 --> 00:44:25.470
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: You know these things it's not like one day comes in there's been a.




00:44:26.820 --> 00:44:32.910
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: it's been a shooting I mean all kinds of things have been going on in that family for a long time and.




00:44:34.170 --> 00:44:46.890
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: One of the things that we have in common, probably is the kind of egocentricity or maybe narcissism where we're putting material things before.




00:44:48.300 --> 00:45:02.280
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: before God putting material material things before our families and so it's not so strange to see that you know these are marriages that were already in decay.




00:45:03.540 --> 00:45:04.080
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: and




00:45:06.900 --> 00:45:07.350
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: The.




00:45:08.640 --> 00:45:20.100
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: When we've interviewed spouses afterwards we've interviewed them what they've told us is they would like nothing better than their spouse to come to them and say look I'm I'm in over my head.




00:45:20.850 --> 00:45:29.130
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I've gone too far I'm being I'm being called upon to do things that I shouldn't do that I know are ethically charged.




00:45:30.450 --> 00:45:36.510
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I'm maybe I'm not well, I have a drug problem I have, I have anxiety issues I'm in the right.




00:45:37.590 --> 00:45:38.490
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I may be in the right.




00:45:39.810 --> 00:45:49.620
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Situation intellectually for for my skill set but I'm in the wrong situation emotionally because it's killing me and.




00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:53.400
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And the spouses would like nothing better than for there.




00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:59.640
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: To be said, listen let's let's sell the House get rid of expensive cars.




00:46:00.390 --> 00:46:03.420
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: yeah yeah whatever it happens to be just.




00:46:03.570 --> 00:46:10.170
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: let's simplify because they miss the spouse that they married 10 years prior.




00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:20.160
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: everybody's like living at this this this vacuous life and they're trying to fill it with other things, but you know.




00:46:21.150 --> 00:46:37.110
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: What people really want is love and and nurturing and care and and a lot for a lot of these people they didn't get it when they were children so there's a lot of of childhood trauma that's replaying on all of this.




00:46:39.210 --> 00:46:50.010
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And unfortunately, it takes a bottom generally for people to wake up and so as I guy I'm forced to live a different life, so I will live a different life but.




00:46:51.060 --> 00:47:03.000
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I'm telling you that there are a few people there are very few, but there are a few people who don't ride the escalator all the way down to the bottom, to the basement.




00:47:03.690 --> 00:47:18.090
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: They they can they can get off at a higher floor and say all right I'm gonna live differently, and sometimes That means they have to pay a price in the legal system, sometimes it means they've they've gotten off before that's happened.




00:47:19.140 --> 00:47:23.220
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And so, if I were going to lecture in front of a.




00:47:24.270 --> 00:47:32.940
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Say 500 new employees of Goldman Sachs I'm standing in front of a room and and I'm going to save them look.




00:47:34.350 --> 00:47:36.930
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: In the next five years 2% of you are going to be prosecuted.




00:47:38.070 --> 00:47:47.700
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: For insider trading or some kind of similar crime and everyone would look around the room, and you know Okay, am I am I in that 2% or am I in that 98%.




00:47:48.450 --> 00:48:02.070
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And tool one everyone is under this kind of false belief that the rewards are so great that it's worth the risk and I tell when I was a young man, if you told me that.




00:48:03.270 --> 00:48:13.410
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: That there's a 2% chance I'm going to spend the rest of my life in prison and in poverty, but in 98% chance that I'm going to be worth $30 million.




00:48:14.700 --> 00:48:20.400
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I would have taken the shot probably myself, but if you're in that 2%.




00:48:21.510 --> 00:48:23.430
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: It gets really bad in a hurry.




00:48:24.900 --> 00:48:25.440
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: and




00:48:26.520 --> 00:48:42.570
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: That includes your best friend your soulmate your your spouse, the person who you're who you're committed to, for the rest of your life they may not be there anymore and I'm all things to think about you know I.




00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:47.160
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: i'd love to talk about you know the prescription.




00:48:48.540 --> 00:48:52.800
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: You know how we actually train people to behave better, more ethically.




00:48:53.940 --> 00:48:57.510
Kelly Paxton: Well, have you read duty insulted by they do it.




00:48:58.680 --> 00:49:13.980
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: I did read that book I'm In fact I got into a I got into a an online debate screaming match with eugene SOFA so over that book and challenge I challenged him to a debate and he declined.




00:49:15.180 --> 00:49:16.470
Kelly Paxton: We actually seen.




00:49:16.590 --> 00:49:18.600
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: Oh yeah you didn't you didn't know this, you didn't know this.




00:49:18.780 --> 00:49:29.370
Kelly Paxton: know so I I've met eugene and I have to say I don't love that book I like it, I don't love it um but I was googling him one night.




00:49:29.460 --> 00:49:39.300
Kelly Paxton: And he had something which ties to the spouse he calls it, the spouse test and he's like you know if you get one of these sort of dilemmas you go to your spouse or your partner.




00:49:39.570 --> 00:49:47.430
Kelly Paxton: And I actually had a case where the guy went home on a Friday told his pregnant spouse that he had not given us the full story.




00:49:47.700 --> 00:50:00.480
Kelly Paxton: And he came in Monday he calls Monday and says, I need to talk to you um you know his wife was probably pretty pollyanna ish thinking Well he didn't do anything wrong he just you know what's helped some information Well he got fired and you know.




00:50:00.510 --> 00:50:10.350
Kelly Paxton: yeah um so I like the spouse test and I, like the work that eugene's done so tell me about your little online brand or not rants but.




00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:12.480
Kelly Paxton: Whenever online.




00:50:12.600 --> 00:50:13.200
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: experience.




00:50:13.290 --> 00:50:14.580
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: It was an argument, it was a fight.




00:50:15.060 --> 00:50:21.960
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: yeah um I mean not you know it was it was gentle personally but um.




00:50:23.430 --> 00:50:29.130
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: And just for the record i'd like the first part of his book I like the history part.




00:50:29.490 --> 00:50:29.910
Kelly Paxton: yeah.




00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:35.490
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: yeah I thought that was fascinating I thought he did a good job in researching it um.




00:50:36.780 --> 00:50:39.150
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: But the issue um.




00:50:41.190 --> 00:50:45.720
Rev. Jeff Grant, J.D., M.Div.: The first thing that caught me even before I read the book was the title.



Talk about a pivot. Jeff’s story is the everyman’s story. With PPP and EIDL programs many people are going to get caught in loan falsifications. There are stories that come out daily for PPP fraud. A stat is a stat. The criminal justice system may not seem fair when a little person gets prosecuted and others are too big to jail. But that is the world we live in. 

It’s summer now and it’s harder to stay focused especially in this heat. Next week’s guest will be a surprise to me too! Stay tuned.