Episode 11: Designing the Future: Powering Up Digital Transformation with Design Thinking with Andrea Järvrén

Come join Share PLM for another podcast episode with Andrea Järvrén, the Transformation Manager, Methods and Practices in Tetra Pak. Andrea has a strong background in business transformation and global process driver roles with focus on problem solving with an iterative approach. She specialises in facilitation with Design Thinking mindset, Design Sprints and tailored workshops in an enterprise setting, doing everything from facilitating, distributing competence, transforming and scaling to accelerating transformation. 

In this episode, we are talking about:

⚉ Introduction to Design Thinking at Tetra Pak
⚉ Practical Applications of Design Thinking
⚉ Design Sprint Methodology
⚉ Facilitation and Preparation
⚉ Measuring Effectiveness
⚉ Adapting to Remote Work
⚉ Scaling Design Thinking Practices


MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

⚉ [Book] Sprint: How to Solve Big Problems and Test New Ideas in Just Five Days by Jake Knapp - https://amzn.to/4c3ih84 
⚉ [Book] Lean UX: Applying Lean Principles to Improve User Experience by Josh Seiden and Jeff Gothelf - https://amzn.to/3KAMmzX 
⚉ [Book] Business Model Generation: A Handbook for Visionaries, Game Changers, and Challengers (The Strategyzer series) by Alexander Osterwalder and Yves Pigneur - https://amzn.to/4c9QHWR 
⚉ Playing to Win: How Strategy Really Works by A.G. Lafley and Roger L. Martin
⚉ AJ&Smart - https://www.ajsmart.com/ 
⚉ Lightning Decision Jam (LDJ) - https://www.workshopper.com/lightning-decision-jam 


CONNECT WITH ANDREA:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrea-j%C3%A4rvr%C3%A9n-56a1433/ 


CONNECT WITH SHARE PLM:
Website: https://shareplm.com/ 


Join us every month to listen to fascinating interviews, where we cover a wide array of topics, from actionable tips, to personal experiences, to strategies that you can implement into your PLM strategy.

If you have an interesting story to share and want to join the conversation, contact us and let's chat. We can't wait to hear from you!

Transcript

[00:00:11] HELENA:
Hello, everybody. Welcome to Share PLM's podcast. Today, I'm your host, Helena Gutiérrez, and I have with us someone very special for today's episode. Her name is Andrea Järvrén, and she's at Tetra Pak. Hello, Andrea. Welcome to the podcast.

[00:00:29] ANDREA:
Hi Helena. Good morning. How are you?

[00:00:32] HELENA:
Fine, thank you. Very excited to having you here because you have such an exciting background. Would you like to introduce yourself and what you do at Tetra Pak?

[00:00:41] ANDREA:
Yeah, I can say a brief couple of words. So I've been Tetra Pak for quite a long time and I have had various positions. Currently I'm working as a transformation manager and I have a background within process development and also project management.

[00:00:58] HELENA:
Andrea, we know each other because we have been doing some work together in, in design thinking. Can you share a bit about, your interest in design thinking and how you started your journey in this field?

[00:01:011] ANDREA:
Yeah, definitely. So, um, this journey started, uh, seven years ago, approximately when industry 4.0 was very much on top of everybody's mind. So We had an initiative here at Tetra Pak where we wanted to digitalize our field force. And in that work, we understood quite quickly if we wanted to do this major transformation for our field service engineers, we needed to do everything differently than what we normally do. And I think this is where our journey started with design thinking and also other tools.

[00:01:47] HELENA:
Very interesting. And how do you currently use design thinking at Tetra Pak?

[00:01:52] ANDREA:
Yeah we use design thinking for uh various challenges, I would say. It started with technical challenges connected to IT, many of the times, but what we saw after a while was that this could also be applied in a business context. So I would say today that we have applied it on every type of challenge that you can imagine from process redesign to physical challenges out on a machine.

It could be IT or digital. So I would say it's a, it's an array of design sprints that we have done. And I think currently to date, I think we have run almost 90 design sprints so far.

[00:02:33] HELENA:
For those who don't know, what, what are design sprints, Andrea?

[00:02:36] ANDREA:
Yeah, yeah, I talk about it like everybody knows what it is, but of course I will tell you a little bit about the design sprint. So, the design sprint is not something that we have invented ourselves. It's a, uh, very, a nice gentleman called Jake Knapp who has invented the design sprint. And it's a five day framework.

It's built on design thinking. So you go from, from idea to test the prototype in five days. You could say it's a super structured method that you can apply together with the group. And every day has a clear objective. And you move through the phases of design thinking during the different days.

So, when we apply it, we apply it on the most complex problems that we have in the company. Where we need to do something else. We have tried to do our normal work. It doesn't happen. We can't find the solution. So we use it as a innovation process and also an accelerative process to get new ideas and also try the different prototypes.

We give feedback so we find a direction on how to move forward and I just want to say Jake Knapp's book, which is called Design Sprint. It's a step by step guide, how to do design sprints. So if you're interested I highly recommend you to buy the book.

[00:03:54] HELENA:
Absolutely. Thank you very much for the tip. We will leave the link to the book. In the podcast recording so that the business can can check it out. One question regarding your your design sprints. How many people are usually part of one of these design sprints and how does it work? Do they really isolate themselves when doing it or…

[00:04:14] ANDREA:
It's a very good question. So I would say we spent some time on picking the right people to be in the design sprints. So you should be no more than eight people. So six to eight people, I would say is the optimal number of people. We have done design sprints with less people and with more people, but the optimal setting is six to eight and you need to have good understanding of the business situation that you are in, because you need to have a multitude of different people that have different experiences or subject matter experts.

So we often handpick the people that we want to have in the design sprints. So you have this cross functional team, where I think we get the best results. So not the same people around the table, but many different people. Also, I would say ages and cultures also factor into this for getting a better result.

[00:05:08] HELENA:
Very cool. How do you prepare and how do you select what kind of design topics or challenges do you take into account? 

[00:05:17] ANDREA:
It's a very good question. So in the situation that we are, we are often approached by our colleagues and also management sometimes when they have something that they the need to have support with. So we are often approached and we are very mindful of when we use this framework because it's quite resource intense.

So imagine eight people around the table for five days. That's quite a lot of hours. You may want to make sure that the challenge is, is so complex or so hard that it worth spending time on. So we put a lot of effort, not, I wouldn't say a lot of effort, but we put effort into the preparation. And what we also do is that we talk to the orderers, we design a challenge brief.

So why we want to do the workshop and try to really, um, verbalize the key challenge, because often when people come to us to say that I have a challenge with this, we need to solve it. But then when you dig a little bit deeper, you understand, yes, it's that, but it's also something else. So we try to help them to reframe and have a different mindset going in into the challenge.

[00:06:28] HELENA:
Very interesting, Andrea. Can you give us some examples of some design sprints?

[00:06:33] ANDREA:
Yeah, I can give you a few examples. So we have done, as I said, process redesign. So imagine process redesign is a very traditional work. It's done very traditionally, but we have been able to ignite when we want to revamp a process and think totally differently around the process.

We have used this framework. We have used it in technical challenges. So when we have an IT related component, and then it's more about doing, um, wireframes and maybe doing visualizations. 

And then we have actually done two prototypes. We have done changes to a machine, but we have also had a complimentary app, a prototype app to see the interaction between app machine and man, which was quite interesting. And then we also have change management related design sprints.

Where we have the transformation in itself from a people perspective and the change is a huge effort. Then we have different organizations coming together to build that future, if it's a roadmap or whatever it is for change or the transformation ahead.

[00:07:43] HELENA:
Super interesting. How do you measure that it's been effective, that you have been successful in the design sprint?

[00:07:50] ANDREA:
That's a really hard topic because in the role that I have, I meet these fantastic teams, we do something together, and then I often leave. But what we talk about when we do the preparation of the design sprint is that there needs to be a person who is accountable and responsible for driving the outcome of that design sprint or that workshop.

So, we always need to have a person that is responsible afterwards, and it often happens that we keep in touch with these people when they use this material. And the workshops that we do are often in the beginning of a process. So what comes out of that workshop becomes often the communication material and it's also evolves throughout the project's life cycle.

So they just add on content to that original prototype. Yeah, and I actually forgot to mention one thing when it comes to how we run and whom we run with. We also have actually done design sprints, um, with suppliers and customers on different, uh, different topics as well.

[00:09:00] HELENA:
Right, there are also important stakeholders. How do you handle this relation when you have some participants who haven't been part of a tight team and now they need to be part of the sprint? Is there some kind of preparation happening or is it just they come together and it's more of a cold brainstorming session, which maybe is also good to have.

[00:09:26] ANDREA:
I think we, we try to prepare them a little bit. We try to tell them that this will be something else. It's not your normal standard workshop where you sit in front of a computer and you check mail sometimes when you're, you're getting a bit bored or unfocused. This is something else. So when we run this physically, we try to have a no device policy.

And we also make sure that everybody around the table is involved. They're taking notes, they are getting tasks if we're working in teams. So we try to, you know, make the best of the situation. What we also do when we meet the first day is that we try to have some, you know, icebreaker exercises, because as you said, in the best of worlds, this is a totally new team coming together and then you need sort of, you need to break the ice.

They need to feel comfortable. So the first day we put some effort into making everybody feeling comfortable and also having spoken quite early so that everybody has been vocal around the table. And of course, we always offer good snacks. That always helps.

[00:10:35] HELENA:
Very cool. And it seems super challenging bringing together these people from different disciplines. My question to you is about your background and also your team's background regarding facilitation. How do you facilitate this kind of super challenges with, uh, such a broad variety of topics and also technical topics, which you need to have some kind of an insight into to be able to connect with the participants.

[00:11:02] ANDREA:
Yeah, absolutely. So we are three of us in the team that facilitate, that work as facilitators. And all three of us have technical backgrounds, which is a huge pro in this case. And when it comes to the frameworks, I also want to say we don't only do design sprints.

We do a lot of different other design thinking workshops. It's not, uh, workshops that we have invented. So it's, it's basically, we find good frameworks, like, uh, I can give you some example. We use strategizers, value proposition canvas, and also business model canvas, to mention some. And what we have been able to do is that, for me at least, it, it has been an auto deduct process.

So I read something theoretical, and then I apply it in practice. So. I think this is the magic with our team that we have been able to take it from theory into practice and, and doing it in a workshop format. And I also think the backgrounds that we have, the network that we have within our company has been a success factor.

As we have worked in different places in the business, so we complement each other in a very good way. All of us in the team have plus 15 years of experience within our company. So that also caters for how we solve the challenges. So if we, we don't know exactly, about that subject, we always have somebody in our network that we can call or speak to, to understand more.

And I think this is one thing that really I appreciate in my role is that I get to dive into different topics and learn new things. I think it's very interesting.

[00:12:46] HELENA:
You have already given so many tips for other companies who maybe want to try this methodology out. What would you recommend someone who is starting up and wants to start trying design thinking, like seven years ago, the Andrea from seven years ago, who started to think about it, what would you recommend to kind of build the knowledge and get prepared? 

[00:13:09] ANDREA:
I think for what has worked for me in this process, and I don't think that everything will be perfect the first time. So speed over perfection, I think is such an important measure. So try if, if it doesn't work out as you expected, do a retro, what needs to be different for the next time.

So trial and error and speed over perfection, I think are, are so important parameters with getting started. And I would also say, I mean, just the recent years, what we have been through with COVID and stuff has made this transformation to virtual and digital tools have accelerated immensely. So people are more prone to do good work virtually than they were before.

And there are really good digital tools to use, interaction whiteboard tools that you can use when you do workshops. So, and I would also, you know, start small and then just add stuff as you go along. And there are so many good examples on the internet. So just, just start Googling and be creative.

And when you want to try out new stuff, do it in the comfort of your small team or colleagues that you know very well, and then just grow it from there.

[00:14:27] HELENA:
How do your people learn about these frameworks when they are part of the of of the design sprints or other workshops that you run? Meaning not your intimate team, but the participants, how do they get into the design thinking framework?

[00:14:46] ANDREA:
Yeah, I mean there are several ways. We have one category of people that come to us because they know us, they know what we do, and it's, they are in our network, so to speak. But we also have, I mean, we work closely to our strategic programs. So whenever they have a, a challenge or they want to get going, they want to accelerate within their topic.

We are a standard function within transformation. So then they, they, there's an open channel to us. So we have our informal network, but then we also have our former roles within transformation that makes us quite exposed to, to the big change work that is ongoing. 

[00:15:30] HELENA:
So have you ramped up the team internally at Tetra Pak or is it just the three of you doing the workshops?

[00:15:39] ANDREA:
From the beginning, it has, it has been the three of us. But I would say the previous three or four years we have put in some effort into mentorship. So we have ramped up colleagues Tto facilitate. So now we have I would say we have facilitation satellites, both in our IT Department. We also have on the business side. And these are people and colleagues that help us to facilitate. So when we get requests and we're not able to handle them due to workload we don't can pass them on. So we have developed this, I would say, a mentorship set up, uh, which is in three steps when it comes to observing the workshops, uh, by themselves.

So first, first step is to observe a workshop and what normally happens is that they, we have normal people attending a workshop and they get so enthusiastic about the way of working. They see the benefits with how to implement this at their own organization. So they seek us out and say that I would also like to do this.

And then they have passed the first step. They have been a part of a workshop. Then we co facilitate one workshop. And then the last one they do themselves, but we are in the background if they need any help. And during with, I mean, it sounds like this is a process you do during three weeks. It's not. I mean, depending on where you are in the organization, what type of challenges you need to focus on.

The plan looks different because you need to be aware of different frameworks and you also we go through all the exercises we prep and so on. So I usually have a mentorship running over spanning over a year. So we invest time on these people to learn the frameworks and then we also do this stepwise approach, these three steps.

And for some, it means that they need to do several different workshops, uh, depending on the complexity and that they have in their organization. But then, I mean, in, in compliment to this, we also run bootcamps. So we have run one bootcamp, which was quite big in our, uh, IT department. And now we're doing a second one this June in our, um, R and D department.

[00:17:58] HELENA:
Wow. It seems to really have thought about the process of scaling and building a framework that enables that

[00:18:05] ANDREA:
Absolutely, because we believe that working differently in this way can accelerate innovation. And also, you know, this cross collaboration aspect will help us produce better outcomes and better results. So I mean, this could be applied in any context. And I also want to say we didn't talk so much about that before, but workshops is like a positive exception in time.

So your life can't consist of workshops. People that have regular jobs and will listen into this podcast will think that, well, you can't do workshops all the time. And no, you can't. But what is really important is you use that workshop as a catalyst, as an accelerator to find direction and speed. And then the real work starts, as I said before, you need to have somebody that is accountable and takes ownership of the material and can take it on.

So, we often spend time in the workshops also, uh, talking about, okay, what happens on Monday when the calendars are full again. How do we make sure that this continues to be a journey?

[00:19:18] HELENA:
Right. And you mentioned COVID and the remote setup. How are you currently running your design sprints? Uh, is it mostly remote or face to face?

[00:19:30] ANDREA:
So I would say that COVID totally shifted how we worked. So before COVID, we did all our workshops physically. That meant that everybody came to us to do the workshops. But with COVID, I mean, we needed to change our business model. Otherwise, we would be out to work quite quickly.

So what that meant was that we needed to find a really good whiteboard tool that we use. And then we built the templates there. So I would say for the really complex challenges we have and the big transformations that are ongoing, we always try to meet physically. Because nothing can compare with team spirit, being physically in a room, collaborating, and having these sometimes quite hard and tough discussions that we need to have.

So for the design sprints we try to meet physically. And then for the other type of workshops that we run, spanning from three hours, to maybe three or four days, or maybe three or four sessions. We often do them remote, but then we also have hybrid setups, of course. So we have some people meeting in a room, and then maybe you have some people sitting some other locations in the world that they're dialing in.

But I would say maybe it's a spread of 70, 30, 70 virtual, 30% still, uh, in a room.

[00:21:00] HELENA:
Wow, that's surprising. I was thinking that you would have more, more of a face to face setup. So it's cool that you've been able to adapt to, to remote.

[00:21:12] ANDREA:
Yeah. And then I didn't account in the hybrid setups. So I think the hybrid setups is a, is a bigger part than we think actually.

[00:21:21] HELENA:
How do those work? The hybrid setups? 

[00:21:25] ANDREA:
Yeah, the hybrid setups is a bit complex, I would say, because the dynamics in the group can be can become a bit distorted. So if you have a team of maybe five in one room that are chatting when you have, I mean, breaks, and then you have one person sitting by itself, it's very hard to handle. And sometimes what I do is that I take the time before to speak with individuals that will be by themselves online so that they are aware that sometimes it feels a bit strange, but it's okay.

But I try to always include them first in the conversations that we're having around the table so that they feel feeling included. But what I normally try to do if it's possible is that I have a group here with me in Sweden, and then I tried to have a group somewhere else in, in a different country.

So if we have three locations, for example, I would prefer them to sit together just so that they have each other during the workshop.

[00:22:25] HELENA:
Right. For someone who is really like we said, starting, do you think it's easier for them to facilitate an online session or would you rather start with a face to face uh setup?

[00:22:39] ANDREA:
Oh, I think that's very based on how you are. Yeah, absolutely. How you are as an individual, but I would prefer to have it face to face to see the people in real life. And because it's harder remote. It is. And what I would do to mitigate that sometimes if I can, is to run shorter days.

Maybe run half day sessions instead. After one another, instead of doing full days. Because that helps people a lot. Because you can, you can never cater. I mean, if they want to check their mails, when you are virtual, they check their mails and then they're checked out. Because the pace is so high. So I, I try to ease that for them by having shorter sessions so that they can be checked in during the workshop itself.

[00:23:30] HELENA:
Yes. I agree with you. I think that face to face, at least for me, it's also easier, and the online is very cool, but it requires a lot of preparation and experience, because you need to really, the attention span is much shorter, so you really need to keep things on fire,

[00:23:48] ANDREA:
Yeah, exactly.

[00:23:50] HELENA:
Andrea, how have you personally evolved as a leader since taking the responsibility of driving the design sprints at Tetra Pak?

[00:23:58] ANDREA:
The last seven years has been a personal transformation for me as well in how I do work. Before in my traditional working life, so before design thinking happened and workshops happened, I saw myself as a perfectionist that could spend a lot of time on small details that maybe wasn't relevant just in that phase. 

And I have, I have needed to rethink myself and how I do work to be able to progress all the time. So as I said, speed over perfection is one thing. I think it's so important to find the direction and then you can fix all the small stuff.

So it's a matter of, you probably heard it before, doing things right or doing the right things. And I think doing the right things is the first step. Then you can go into, are we doing them right? So I think that's one really big change for me. I also, I have tried to stop doing so many mails.

In my previous jobs, you know, 30 emails a day, 40 maybe was not uncommon and it takes too much time out of my delivery time, so to say. So I try to keep to maybe 5 or 10 emails a day and everything that I need to handle or get back to people or take decisions. I do with other tools, with teams, I call people, I try to have a coffee instead.

Of course, there are some things that needs to be formal, they are still formal, but I, I try to cut down. On that type of work, because if I send 40 emails a day, I will get 40 replies back. So, you know, the workload is constant. And I need to spend time on, on the deliveries that I have. I need to prep people for the workshops.

I need to execute the workshops. And then I need to wrap up the workshops. So I need to constantly be very adamant about my time. Otherwise I, I wouldn't be able to to facilitate because all these administrative layers would take away that time. So I'm, I'm very, I'm a bit skeptical of filling my time with with meetings.

I have that as well. But, you know, it's not my normal working situation that I have back to back. And then also I have learned so much about the company, but also the outside world with doing this workshop, because one thing that we normally do is that we benchmark other industries, but also what is going on outside.

So we try to, you know, when we start to workshop, we try to have a broad horizon on where we look. We don't just look inwards at what our challenge is. What are the ongoing factors outside that will impact us? So, and I think this, this way of working, the design sprints, the different steps in the design thinking process, I have also applied to my daily work.

So I have the same methodology that we have in the workshops I have for myself when I do my other work, which is quite interesting.

[00:27:16] HELENA:
I love that what you say that speed over perfectionist. And I think that's not easy, especially when you start. If you are a perfectionist, it takes time. And also like building things with a group, like not just, it's not you, it's really the group.

[00:27:34] ANDREA:
Exactly.

[00:27:35] HELENA:
It’s a transformation, isn't it?

[00:27:37] ANDREA:
Yeah, exactly, and I think this is such a good point that you bring up. The more quiet you are in a workshop as a facilitator, the better the group is doing. So it's not me being in a spotlight in a workshop. It's the people around the table that have the subject matter expertise, it's them that are in the spotlight doing their best work in a creative environment.

So my task there is to support and guide them through the process. I don't take any decisions. It's not me that they need to turn to when they are at the crossing and need to take a decision. It's them. They are the subject matter experts. So it's, it was a good one that you brought up.

[00:28:21] HELENA:
That's a big transformation I think. 

[00:28:24] ANDREA:
Yeah, it is. Absolutely.

[00:28:25] HELENA:
I mean, it's difficult. Maybe it sounds easy, but, but, uh, it's really, really difficult. I think it's one of the most challenging things or jobs in the world to, to really be a good facilitator and being able to get the most out of the people in the room and really being them the ones who are doing things.

[00:28:46] ANDREA:
I agree. I agree.

[00:28:48] HELENA:
Very good, Andrea. I think you have shared a lot of good resources already throughout the podcast. But is there any other books or resources or influential people that you want to recommend the listeners that have been influential in your journey?

[00:29:03] ANDREA:
Yeah, definitely. So first of all, Jake Knapp and I think he actually co wrote that book with John Setarsky. So The Design Sprint book is definitely one that you should buy and it's, as I said, it's a recipe book, step by step, how to do the workshop. So if you want to do it, you can do it. And one thing, maybe before we go into that, that I haven't mentioned, because I don't have designer skills.

So if you want to run a design sprint and you want to do a prototype, irrespective if it's UI or UX, or if it's more. I would say business prototyping. So you know, sketching out the future, you need to have a really good designer. UX designer or a service designer that can help you. So when I facilitate, I always have a designer with me, a service designer that helps the team visualize their vision and their prototype.

We haven't mentioned that before, but I want to say that. So it's not only me, the designer is equally important in that process. Yeah.

[00:30:11] HELENA:
Thank you for bringing that up, Andrea.

[00:30:14] ANDREA:
And then I can recommend Lean UX. So Lean User Experience, which is also by John Gotthelf, which is an interesting book. We have used elements of his book as workshops for creating backlogs and also finding good cadence for a team.

I can, as I said before, strategizers framework with business model canvas and value propositions. They also have some really good books, Business Model Generation and also a couple of other books. So go in and have a look at their books also really inspiring and interesting. And then if you want to do strategy work, I would strongly recommend Roger L. Martin which has done a couple of really, really good books. He's a guru within strategy and has been for many years. And he has this, I would say disruptive mindset when it comes to strategy, which is super fascinating. And the books that I would recommend from Roger is, um, Playing To Win.

I would say that is the key one. And then we haven't talked about that so much and I'm going off the topic is that what you can do later on when you're more sophisticated and I tried, tried a couple of workshops is that you can tailor make workshops. So you can take different exercises from different frameworks and build them together.

That is also a pro tip later on. And I would also recommend there's this really good firm in Berlin called AJ and Smart. They have a lot of material online. They have also framework, which is called Lightning Decision Jam, which we use quite a lot here in Tetra pack. So I would definitely recommend AJ and smart as well in their videos.

And they have a lot of good content as well online. I think they have a website called workshopper where they have a lot of good material.

[00:32:14] HELENA:
So many amazing resources. Thank you very much for, for sharing. I think those are, those are great. Finally what do you hope listeners will take away from this podcast episode? 

[00:32:25] ANDREA:
I would like them to take away that it's easy to get started if you get started with start small and then add on. Also be okay with being outside your comfort zone the first times, because that is where you will learn. That is where you will grow. Speed over perfection, as I said, start maybe with your own small team and just build from there. 

And if you want to do these more advanced, advanced facilitations that are a little bit bigger, there are a lot of good firms that you can use. So take in expert help. Look at them, how they do it, learn from them, and take that learning on and, and try new stuff.

I think that is what I would like people to, to take away, and it's easy to, to get started if you just implement some small things and keep those, and that is maybe one point as well. If you take any, you know, transformative decisions for yourself to do things differently, you need to be very sharp on yourself to sticking to them.

So if you want to, let's say you want to not work so much in Outlook anymore, you want to do different work that will take you maybe two years time until it's fully implemented. So you need to have stamina. So when you fail, you just need to go up on the horse again and try again.

[00:33:59] HELENA:
I love that. Those are really transformative tips, but of course, not so easy, as you say to… 

[00:34:05] ANDREA:
No, I'm still, I'm still trying to, um, implement some of mine. So, uh, and it's, it's tedious work, but I think we should…

[00:34:15] HELENA:
Yes.

[00:34:17] ANDREA:
Yes.

[00:34:18] HELENA:
Thank you very much, Andrea. It was, it was an amazing episode. I really enjoyed our conversation.

[00:34:24] ANDREA:
The same, Helena. And thank you so much for having me. It has been a pleasure being here today with you this morning.

[00:34:31] HELENA:
Thank you, Andrea.

[00:34:33] ANDREA:
Thank you.