Episode 4: PLM Beyond Engineering: Driving Change from Manufacturing with Susanne Lauda

In this episode of the Share PLM Podcast, we are joined by Susanne Lauda, an engineering and smart manufacturing leader specializing in PLM and Configuration Management. 

With roots in Germany and a career that began on the Space Shuttle manufacturing team, she spent 13 years at AGCO Corporation leading global PLM and Manufacturing 4.0 initiatives. A 2017 STEP Ahead Award recipient and board member of Women in Manufacturing, Susanne now serves on the advisory board for INP Sales, LLC, supporting major industrial projects across North America.  

Susanne shares a refreshingly practical and experience-driven perspective on Product Lifecycle Management (PLM). From starting her journey with zero PLM knowledge to leading global initiatives, Susanne unpacks what truly makes PLM work in real-world organizations.

⚉ PLM as a Strategy, Not Just a Tool
⚉ The Complexity of System and Vendor Selection 
⚉ Data Quality: The Hidden Challenge 
⚉ Overcoming Resistance to Change 
⚉ Vision vs. Pain: Why You Need Both 
⚉ Rethinking the “Single Source of Truth” 
⚉ The Power of Networks and Mentorship 


CONNECT WITH SUSANNE: 
⚉ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susanne-lauda-1390a61a/ 

CONNECT WITH SHARE PLM:
Website: https://shareplm.com/ 


Join us every month to listen to fascinating interviews, where we cover a wide array of topics, from actionable tips, to personal experiences, to strategies that you can implement into your PLM strategy.

If you have an interesting story to share and want to join the conversation, contact us and let's chat. We can't wait to hear from you!

Transcript

[00:00:11] MARIA MORRIS:
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Share PLM podcast. I'm Maria Morris, Business Development Manager at Share PLM, and I'll be your host for today's episode.

Joining me as always is our fabulous co-host Jos Voskuil, and today I'm very excited because we have a great guest lined up who's got some amazing experience that they will be sharing with us. So Jos, why don't I pass over to you and you can introduce our guest a little bit for today.

[00:00:39] JOS VOSKUIL:
Okay. Hi Maria. Yes, it's a wonderful day and yes, I'm excited also today that we are speaking with Susanne Lauda. I met her for the first time in PI Conference in Hamburg in 2018. She was a woman on stage talking about PLM that was already rare, but also her PLM story with AGCO was very interesting and different than all the traditional stories we've heard before, and therefore we kept in contact.

And I'm always curious to see what has developed in the PLM story with Susanne so far. But first of all, a warm welcome Susanne, and happy to have you in our podcast. And can you first tell us who is Susanne Lauda? Is she the racer?

[00:01:19] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yeah, well, there is some relationship there, so that's always my excuse when I get pulled over for driving too fast. But now I was never really active in any car racing activities. I was always in the manufacturing and engineering world.

So I started out my career in Germany. I started out as an apprentice, actually went back to engineering school later, and then during the final stages of the space shuttle program, I came over to the United States because they had lost a vendor in the United States and they needed some expertise that was only available in Germany at that point. And so that's how I got to the United States, and the rest is history.

[00:02:05] JOS VOSKUIL:
Okay. So you mean the Germans, they know all about rockets? Yeah. Historically.

[00:02:09] SUSANNE LAUDA:
A little bit. Yeah, a little bit. I, I felt like a little Warner from Brown at that point. Yes.
 
[00:02:17] JOS VOSKUIL:
But then you came into work at AGCO. What is AGCO as a company doing and how did you get there?

[00:02:25] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Hmm. So AGCO is one of the global, real big global players in producing farming equipment. And I was already in the United States, living in the Atlanta area, and I think there will be a point in this podcast where we talk about network.

Through my Atlanta network, I met the senior vice president manufacturing and supply chain, and he thought that I was fairly sharp. So he invited me for an interview, and in his interview he asked me. By the way, what's your experience with PLM? And I looked at him, I said, what is PLM? He said, he said, uh, you haven't heard of PLM? I said, Nope, sorry, haven't heard of it. He said, well, that's a good thing. He said, because then you don't have any preferences yet. No prejudice. We need somebody who is very structured, very clear in the approach to make a selection of our PLM tools for the future. And that's how I ended up with AGCO.

[00:03:31] JOS VOSKUIL:
Okay. And as you said, I didn't know what was PLM, which in one way is I always think it's good as long as you understand the concept or the goals that you want to achieve. Because what was the reason why AGCO was looking for PLM? What was the main business driver?

[00:03:49] SUSANNE LAUDA:
So that's a very interesting story and I think that is what differentiated AGCO from the rest of the PLM world because the driver behind the PLM really was manufacturing and not engineering.

[00:04:02] JOS VOSKUIL:
Right? And what were they aiming to fix? I remember you talked that time about cost of non-quality. Was that one of the drivers?

[00:04:09] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Oh yes, yes. I mean, uh, quality cost, but I think the biggest driver behind it was this Design Anywhere, Build Anywhere strategy. Which means that you have to have clean data that you can separate the way you need to separate them if you build a certain platform at certain places around the globe.

[00:04:35] JOS VOSKUIL:
And then how did you start? You didn't know PLM, but you were assigned to PLM?

[00:04:42] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yes. At first, of course, I had to learn more about AGCO and then I had to educate myself what is PLM? And in the process of learning what is PLM, I quickly learned that PLM is not a tool.

PLM is a strategy, a methodology. It's a combination of tools. It is something that has to be supporting a process. So before I really dove too deep into the PLM tools and the selection process, I familiarized myself with the CM2 process as well, which in my opinion is a process that really describes very well what the PLM tool has to do.

[00:05:30] JOS VOSKUIL:
Exactly. PLM and CM configuration management are somehow very, uh, well connected if done correctly in a modern way. Were there any special institutes that gave you this education both on PLM or on CM2?

[00:05:45] SUSANNE LAUDA:
So with PLM I basically traveled to a few companies that were considered to be advanced in PLM at that point. And for the CM2 process, I actually underwent the training by IPX Institute of Process Excellence.

[00:06:04] MARIA MORRIS:
And Susanne, would you say that it was an advantage or a disadvantage when you first started out in the project not having a PLM background?

[00:06:12] SUSANNE LAUDA:
It definitely was an advantage. It definitely was an advantage.

[00:06:17] MARIA MORRIS: 

And why would you say that, do you think starting from kind of a clean base and not having any preconceived ideas about how the project should look helped you?

[00:06:29] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Exactly. Exactly. And you don't have a preferred vendor yet.

[00:06:35] JOS VOSKUIL:
But then we focus on the vendor again, and I think from the other end, I'm still in my job because of the experience, eh? So, uh…

[00:06:41] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yes.

[00:06:43] JOS VOSKUIL:
so many dos and don'ts that you learned through the years?

[00:06:47] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yes.

[00:06:48] JOS VOSKUIL:
Let's follow up, so you started your PLM journey at AGCO and then somewhere something had to come and that was already also an interesting story. How did you select the right partner and environment for AGCO?

[00:07:01] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Well, that was, that by itself could fill an entire podcast, so at this point, engineering had already made up their mind. They wanted to do what we call PDM was one vendor. And then when we did the big proof of concept, we invited another vendor. A competitor and from a manufacturing and supply chain perspective, that other vendor was superior to the one engineering had already picked.

So we could not agree. And while engineering and manufacturing were pulling back and forth between the two vendors, it made a decision on their own and selected a third vendor. And implemented that, basically a vanilla version of that vendor's PLM, at one of our factories.

And that factory to today is still using Excel spreadsheets. So that clearly was not working very well. So after a few months, we went back to the back and forth between the two vendors. Still we couldn't agree, and then we decided to go with the multisystem PLM at that point.

[00:08:22] JOS VOSKUIL:
Yeah. In a way I fully support this approach because PLM needs to be open. It's more about an infrastructure than about a single system. And yeah, I understand that sometimes some of the vendors are much closer to manufacturing than others, and others are more design centric.

So if you can build such an infrastructure, I think you, you're working on the, the right future. How did you do this selection process? Did you have a consultancy firm or did you have a team to work with?

[00:08:48] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yes, we had a consultant that helped us, especially with creating the use cases, and then we had a very small internal team that hosted or organized the hosting of the proof of concept. We spent a total of, I think two weeks was both vendors at a neutral facility where they had enough server space. And yeah, so we went from use case to use case to use case with our team.

And our team basically was made up from representatives, from the major sites and from all the functions.

[00:09:32] MARIA MORRIS:
Mm-hmm. And one thing that we always advocate for is a people first methodology throughout a PLM program, including the selection process. What did you do, Susanne, to try and engage the wider organization and key stakeholders during this process to make them feel a part of the process itself?

[00:09:51] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Oh, the first thing I had to do was get funding for it. And I'm trying to make this story really short, but it's a funny story. In order to get the funding, I had to go to our senior executive conference and present the case, and I knew that except two of our senior executives, nobody had the technical background. So how do we explain PLM to them?

So I bought a big cake. I brought that cake to the table and I asked everybody if they wanted a piece, and they said, yep. I said, well, it's too bad because it's one big cake. What do we do now?

And so I finally pulled out a big knife and I said, this is PLM, and this is how you cut up your one big BOM that you are currently having into what you need, which is an EBOM, an MBOM, an SBOM, whatever you need. And they were like, oh, okay. And my senior vice president manufacturing had hired me, he sat across from me and I could see on his face that he was mortified when I brought in that cake. And then our CEO just start laughing and he said, enough said, you got your approval.

[00:11:13] MARIA MORRIS:
I think this is maybe a tactic that we could take into some of our PLM awareness workshops as well, Jos next time.

[00:11:20] JOS VOSKUIL:
Yeah. In one way it fills the stomach feeling, that's for sure. But it's also a nice way to explain, slice the elephant.

[00:11:28] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Exactly.

[00:11:29] JOS VOSKUIL:
That it's not one big cake. You can enjoy it piece by piece, et cetera. But you're right. I think the big challenge is still, and we are focusing on that also to explain to management, why are you doing PLM and PLM is not an engineering tool and you had your engineering and manufacturing both with their capabilities.

By the way, you mentioned proof of concepts, installations, that was the time before we had SaaS solutions. When was this?

[00:11:58] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Oh yeah, this was, I think it was 2012.

[00:12:02] JOS VOSKUIL:
Okay. So in that time, I think the importance of it was also big.

[00:12:07] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yes.

[00:12:08] JOS VOSKUIL:
And because it was connectivity, infrastructure, technology.

[00:12:11] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yes.

[00:12:13] JOS VOSKUIL:
Have you seen a change in the time about a new technology and things becoming more easier?

[00:12:19] SUSANNE LAUDA:
What I'm seeing recently is that artificial intelligence starts to play more of a role, especially in the background of PLM, like in search functions and whatnot.

[00:12:33] JOS VOSKUIL:
Yeah, there are big discussions on the AI. Is the AI reliable enough when it's just indexing the existing data where we don't know the quality?

[00:12:43] SUSANNE LAUDA:
And that's always my biggest concern. Apart from the process, which of course is always the biggest concern, the data quality is always a huge issue, always. It was always my biggest concern, and that's the hardest one to solve.

[00:12:59] JOS VOSKUIL:
Yeah, because did you have any migration projects also inside the PLM scope?

[00:13:05] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yes. Yes.

[00:13:07] JOS VOSKUIL:
Because that's where you find your quality, huh?

[00:13:10] SUSANNE LAUDA:
And there's tools for that. Yes, and we used those tools, but interestingly enough, when we really started working with PLM in manufacturing, when we really worked with it, that's when we found most of the flaws. So suddenly there was a tractor was five wheels, or there was a tractor that had the steering wheel on the right hand side by the driver's seat on the left hand side.

You know, all these things, you find out when people work with it, and then when they create work instructions, that's when they see, oh, this can be.

[00:14:30] JOS VOSKUIL:
That's the amazing thing. If you bring data together, then you see the inconsistencies

[00:14:34] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Exactly

[00:14:34] JOS VOSKUIL:
Where before, I think people in the factory, they understand what you mean and they will fix it there.

[00:14:40] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Exactly. Exactly.

[00:14:42] JOS VOSKUIL:
And there are no feedback loops.

[00:14:44] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yep.

[00:14:45] MARIA MORRIS:
And Susan, what was the reaction from the wider organization when it came to implementing PLM? Did you go to different departments, divisions, and did they welcome the idea with open arms or was there resistance?

[00:14:57] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Oh my God. Welcome. No, because you are interrupting a fairly convenient life. Things are working the way they have worked for the last 10 years, 15, 20 years. And especially when you start going to the factories, they become really nervous because if they only have to stop a line for an hour or two, the losses are just massive. So when you come in with a new idea, a new system, there's never the big welcome sign outside the front door. Never.

[00:15:40] MARIA MORRIS:
And what did you find were the most effective approaches to try and reduce some of this resistance and get people to understand why you are...
 
[00:15:48] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Buy-in. You have to get buy-in. If you don't get the buy-in, you're lost. You really have to take the time, explain what you are doing, and then deliver in small trenches. Don't go for a big bang because the big bang will fail anyway. Go for the smaller, quicker, low hanging fruit. The quick wins. And stay honest. Don't over promise and under deliver. I've seen so many situations, especially vendors, overpromised and underdelivered. That's not helpful. I tend to under promise and over deliver.

[00:16:33] JOS VOSKUIL:
That's a very good strategy. Expectation management I think is crucial in the PLM world, but coming back to convincing people, I think first of all, you might have done what all consultants do. Ask for the pains.

[00:16:46] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yes.

[00:16:47] JOS VOSKUIL:
What pains do you have?

[00:16:49] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yes, of course, of course.

[00:16:51] JOS VOSKUIL:
Where are some significant pains where you could say, well, with our new infrastructure, we are able to, to fix this? What were your main messages for them?
 
[00:17:00] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Well, that is actually where the buy-in comes into play, because then you have to show, and you have to prove that you can at least ease that pain. Maybe not fully take it away. But you can ease that pain to a certain degree.

[00:17:19] JOS VOSKUIL:
Okay. And because I have many times discussions that should we start from the pains or should we start from the vision? If you start from the vision, then you say, we, this is where we want to be. You have to imagine yourself a new future. Where if you start from the pain, you are looking for medicines and tools, you don't, which of the approaches do you see the most?

[00:17:40] SUSANNE LAUDA:
You need both. Okay. So let's say I want to climb Mount Everest. That's my vision. I don't go there just without any preparation, and I don't go there without any medication in my backpack because something can happen on the way there, right? Where I need my medication, my bandaid, or my cough drops or whatever. So yes, you need both.
If you don't have a vision, you don't know where you are going, but if you don't have the tools to make the wheels turning while you are going, you are not getting there.

[00:18:17] JOS VOSKUIL:
Exactly. You need to have your base camps where you can relax and look back and look forward again and repositioning.

[00:18:26] MARIA MORRIS:
So Susanne, to kind of go back a little bit into the journey of the kind of full implementation deployment of the system, we've discussed the selection process of the vendor, the execution of the pilots. Were there any key lessons learned that you took from the pilots that then kind of changed or supported your strategy for the actual deployment of the system to the wider organization?

[00:18:50] SUSANNE LAUDA:
What I really learned was there's a lot of politics involved in that journey. And I think the P and PLM stands for politics. And that is what gets in the way most because if you talk to the people on the ground, so to speak, they are always open to work with you. But again, as soon as politics comes into play, the whole situation gets a little bit murky.

[00:19:39] JOS VOSKUIL:
And, and I think if we look back to 2012 and the years afterwards, the PLM was typically a system of record. It looked like, uh, bureaucracy, it looks like, uh, an overhead on your day-to-day work.

[00:19:41] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yeah.

[00:19:41] JOS VOSKUIL:
Luckily now with modern systems, modern interfaces, and also with AI, we are able to smoothen the gap between the system of record and the systems of engagement.

[00:19:54] MARIA MORRIS:
And do you think if you were to execute this implementation again, you would change anything in your approach or your strategy, or would you do it exactly the same?

[00:20:05] SUSANNE LAUDA:
What I perceived as very negative is was that the same questions came up over and over and over again. Are we using the right vendors? Are we doing the right thing? Should we not have another proof of concept? There's a new vendor out there, should we look at that vendor? Oh, and now we have bought a new company, and will they fit in and will they not fit in and readdressing the same question over and over and over and over again.

I think if I had to do it again, I would sit down at the table. Every single stakeholder and had them sign a contract that they cannot ask the same question again six months from now, 12 months from now, five years from now, after five years, they are allowed to ask the same question again, but you have to give the system and the team the time to roll it out. To stabilize it and to prove that it is successful.

[00:21:17] MARIA MORRIS:
I think that takes us back to managing expectations as well, because I think at the beginning we've discussed, you put a lot of work into what is the vision, what is the story that we're going to sell as to why we're implementing PLM, what are the pains it's going to solve for us? But I think sometimes what we fail to mention is that this isn't a quick fix.

So, it's not gonna be a difference in in light and day between today and tomorrow. And I think that's sometimes where PLM projects fall short and cause more resistance because people are expecting to see rapid changes much faster than it's actually possible. So yeah, I can definitely relate to that.

[00:21:55] JOS VOSKUIL:
I have a, for me, interesting question. If you talk with a PLM vendor and also near P vendor, a big one, you know them, they always talk about the single source of truth. But now with your heterogeneous environment that you built the two vendors, did you also use the terminology, single source of truth or did you say the nearest source of truth?

[00:22:16] SUSANNE LAUDA:
That's an excellent question. We still use the single source of truth. I'm still catching myself by saying the same thing, single source of truth, but I think it's more correct to say the nearest source of truth. The only issue with the nearest source of truth is that it has to be the same truth for everybody.

[00:22:39] JOS VOSKUIL:
We have this nice motto from Yusef Ushman who says, nearest source of truth, but single source of change. That means you have to decide which of the environments is the leading in the change.

[00:22:52] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And in that respect, you also have to clearly define which system is responsible for what.

[00:23:02] MARIA MORRIS:
Exactly. Yes. I attended a conference a few weeks ago where there was a great keynote by Martin Eigner and he also dispelled this myth of PLM system being a single source of truth, and he was explaining the fact that it's what makes up a digital thread or a digital backbone of an organization is many systems.

There are the single source of truth for certain data, but not for every piece of data. And I think I've noticed that trend quite a lot in the PLM world recently, and people are moving away from talking about PLM as the single source of truth, but actually seeing it as more of one component of a larger digital ecostructure.

[00:23:41] JOS VOSKUIL:
But who is leading their, I mean, the vendors still want to talk about their systems, and so it must come from the companies and the implementers to have this, this broader vision. Hmm.

[00:23:51] SUSANNE LAUDA:
In reality, you cannot rip out everything in your company and install one system that fits all. Yeah. First of all, there is no such system out there yet, despite what vendors promise you.

[00:24:07] JOS VOSKUIL:
I was thinking with your German background, you would know the system.

[00:24:13] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Uh, well, there's actually two German ones that claim they know everything, right?

[00:24:18] JOS VOSKUIL:
Yeah, yeah.

[00:24:20] SUSANNE LAUDA:
And then both have their place in the PLM world as a strategy and as I call it, the digital thread in the meantime. And the digital thread basically has to thread systems and data together.

[00:24:37] JOS VOSKUIL:
Mm-hmm. Right.

[00:24:39] MARIA MORRIS:
I want to pivot the topic slightly and kind of go back to a little bit what we began to mention at the beginning about where your career kind of took off, Susanne, because as Jos mentioned when he met you, it's, it's quite rare to find, I think things are starting to change now, but women in the PLM space.

And I'd like to talk a little bit more about what was it like entering such a, especially a male dominated field, but also what was the importance of having a strong professional network for you into your career journey?

[00:25:13] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Well, let's start with a professional network. In my long career, long career, I'm almost retired now, semi-retired. I never got a new job because I sent my resume to a company. I always got a new job because of my network, and that's what makes net professional networks so important. Right away after I joined AGCO, I made AGCO, for instance, the first corporate member of an organization called Women in Manufacturing because as you said, it's more frequent that you see women in any position and level in manufacturing. But we still need that network support among each other.

[00:26:03] MARIA MORRIS:
Hmm, definitely. I completely agree. And what advice would you give to women starting out in an engineering field or a more technical field that maybe don't feel so confident or dunno where to start in building their professional network?

[00:26:18] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Well, the first thing is always stay true to yourself. That's important. Don't be afraid. Nothing can happen to you as long as you stay true to yourself. Look for a mentor and in most cases that mentor will be a male.

I remember my first boss, my very first boss a long, long time ago. I consider him to today more a mentor than a boss. I remember that we got an invitation to come to conference. And it was still letters, no emails, and he received a letter, dear Mr. whatever his name was, we would like to invite you and Mr. Lauda to our conference. And he sent the polite letter back and he said, unfortunately, we both have to decline because there is no Mr. Lauda working for us. If you mean Ms. Lauda, then please send a new letter.

[00:27:24] JOS VOSKUIL:
Wow, that's a good support. I would say

[00:27:27] SUSANNE LAUDA:
yes, and that is what you need. And again, today, it's so common to see women in these positions and we have to stick together. Women tend to be more, sometimes a little bit catty than men are. Don't be, help yourself. And help others and stick together and support each other.

[00:27:52] JOS VOSKUIL:
Exactly. I think that's one of the joys I have working with Share PLM and also last year in the Share PLM Summit, the diversity and the difference of topics. We're not talking only about technology, we are talking about the importance of human, and you mentioned politics. I think also in politics, men can be very black and white. Women can be the catalyst between them.

[00:28:15] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yeah, very true

[00:28:16] JOS VOSKUIL:
With that, I, if I look at the time, we have to start to, uh, wrap up slowly and of course I have always my, uh, standard question, experience is what you get when you don't get what you expect. And so we are curious. Do you have a, a moment of experience that you want to share with us?

[00:28:35] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Oh my God. I mean, what I've, what I've learned, I learned two things in life. You cannot get everybody to follow you and to understand where you are going cut your losses when it gets too painful. I think that's one of the biggest things that I learned in life and in professional life. At some point, you are losing too much of your energy and resources to just convince one single individual. At some point, you just give up.

The other thing that I find very important is stay on course. Don't always look back your left, your right. Stay on course until you come to that point again where you find the pain is too big, then reconsider. That's the two things that I really learned in life and that I find very important.

Last but not least, I always say in your professional life, when you start talking to people, never start a sentence with, I hope, I think, I believe, I expect, don't use these words. When you start a professional conversation,

[00:30:00] JOS VOSKUIL:
You have to be sure about what you're saying.

[00:30:02] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yes.

[00:30:04] JOS VOSKUIL:
It's the same. I never say to, to somebody in a project, good luck.

[00:30:07] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Oh my God, no.

[00:30:08] JOS VOSKUIL:
I always say success.

[00:30:10] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Yes, exactly. Exactly. As soon as somebody says to me, good luck. I know that this person expects me to fail.

[00:30:19] JOS VOSKUIL:
Yes. But yeah. Interesting. Anyway, your first experience, a focus, not on the a hundred percent, but on maybe the 80%. I think that's uh, a lesson learned. I also had in you cannot please everyone, and there are always some people that don't want to change and you have to leave them behind.

[00:30:34] MARIA MORRIS:
Yes,

[00:30:35] JOS VOSKUIL:
Yes or no? And yeah, the stay on course, I think it was maybe in the same, uh, conference that we were, that time in PI, one of the person said, PLM is democracy. People can say what they want, but then once we start implement it, it's a autocracy. I say what we are doing, and we are not going to discuss every step again and again. So stay on course as you you've mentioned. Yes.

[00:30:57] MARIA MORRIS:
I think that goes back to the idea of getting everyone to sign a contract, to not be able to repeat the state question for the first five years.

[00:31:05] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Exactly, yeah.

[00:31:06] JOS VOSKUIL:
Okay,

[00:31:06] MARIA MORRIS:
Great. Then in that case, I think, I mean, we could continue this conversation for many more hours. I think there's definitely other topics that we'll have to bring you back for a future episode, Susanne, to discuss.

[00:31:18] SUSANNE LAUDA:
I would love to come back.

[00:31:20] MARIA MORRIS:
Definitely. For now, I just want to thank you and also Jos as always for joining us in today's episode. I hope our listeners enjoy it. There's definitely a lot of great takeaways from this episode. And as always, for our listeners, if they would like us to discuss any specific topic, or even if you think you would be a good guest on an episode to share your own experience, then please drop us a message, leave us a comment, and we look forward to hearing your thoughts on the episode. Thank you both for joining.

[00:31:50] SUSANNE LAUDA:
Thank you both.

[00:31:51] JOS VOSKUIL:
You're going to be missed in Jerez, but I don't know if you can make it.

[00:31:55] SUSANNE LAUDA:
I know.

[00:31:57] MARIA MORRIS:
Bye everyone.

[00:31:58] JOS VOSKUIL:
Bye bye.