Tania:
Hi, we are The Good Ship Illustration and we run online courses to help illustrators and image makers navigate a creative career. We are Tania,

Katie:
Katie.

Helen:
And Helen! We have about 70 years experience between us, each of us working in a different area of illustration.

Katie:
Welcome to Message in a Bottle - our new podcast, answering your questions! You can send your messages to goodshipillo@gmail.com and title it 'message in a bottle' so we know what it's about. Welcome to another episode of message in a bottle. This one's a bit of a pick and mix. We've got some interesting questions and topics to talk about. So the first one, it says 'long term and short term goals regarding becoming an illustrator?' And we're assuming that they're asking what our goals are?

Helen:
Yeah. I think it'd be hard for us to advise other people on what their goals should be. So maybe we should take it as what our goals have been or are. Do you think?

Katie:
But I've just noticed this as on becoming an illustrator and, or...

Tania:
It definitely feels like they're asking what should I, we might have to ditch this one.

Helen:
No, I think let's just talk about it from all angles.

Katie:
Yeah. <laugh> all angles will become **inaudible**

Tania:
All right.

Tania:
<Laugh>

Helen:
So I think when I started out, my long term goal was to write and illustrate children's books. That was it. And my short term goal was probably just to make that happen, make my website, send out samples. Yeah. Smaller bits. Like so if the whole thing is a mountain, at the top is write and illustrate my picture book. And then there's all the bits on the way - I'll get this organized. I'll send out samples. I'll sit on my old landline back in my old bedsit and I'll ring around all the editors and see if anyone will see me. Just little tiny steps on the way. Yeah. Now goals are, have a happy time with The Good Ship. Say no to anything that doesn't make me feel excited. I get very easily distracted by other people's ideas. Like if I get invited to lots of book festivals, I wanna go and do them and then I have to be realistic. So a lot of traveling takes me away from my desk. I'm not gonna get my book finished. So my goals are now mostly around setting parameters and saying no to things that are not like really targeted that I really wanna do.

Tania:
Your old, your later goals should be just learn to say, no, lots.

All:
<Laugh>.

Katie:
Anytime you say yes to something, it costs you, you say no to something else. So it's important to say no.

Helen:
Yeah, I try to be really, really focused with that. Cause I get so easily excited and distracted by things people suggest I could do. Yeah. What about you guys?

Katie:
I think when I was starting out, it was the big mountain goal was be paid to draw pictures. I didn't specifically know what kind of pictures, what for who for. And then the short term was figure out what kind of pictures I wanna draw. So like just try everything say yes to everything make work and put it on my website. And it worked in the, in the long term, it took a long time and there was a lot of like, 'this isn't working. I'm gonna be a nanny forever'. But I think, yeah, it was like plugging away.

Helen:
Those little tiny bits every day. Just a little bit of something can add up into something really big over six months.

Katie:
It really can yeah!

Helen:
Little Instagram post every day or every second day. And fix your website a little bit, send out some samples. Just those like a tiny thing every day.

Katie:
Yeah. And knowing in your mind that you are working towards that, that you haven't given up, it's just taking a while. That's really important.

Tania:
And your Dad's really good advice. Helen. Scattergun!

Helen:
He said, throw enough mud at the wall. Some of it'll stick. He was a car salesman.

Katie:
Mr. Stephens.

Helen:
Yeah. What good advice that was. I just sent out samples. If people never got back to me, they got more samples. If people sent me a rejection, they got more samples. <Laugh> like, I just, I just decided that that was a really, really good idea. People got samples, whether they wanted them or not all the time. And it did, it worked. People would stick the sample on the wall. They might have it on the wall for years and years and then get in touch

Tania:
Words to live by. Absolutely. I, I think that in the beginning, the path in the beginning, the normal path, if you're not looking at children's book illustration for other illustrators that go and see all the magazines and you work for them for a while, you see lots of magazines, you do moderately paid editorial work, which I think we've said before those fees haven't gone up. Cost of living has gone up in 25 years, but those fees are still the same. So it's actually not viable just to live by editorial alone, which it used to be. I think some goals, goals that should be adopted are find a nice art director that you can build a relationship with someone who's you know, in tune with your ideas and can work. You can work on projects with them and build up a long term relationship and then figure out what it is you want to do with your illustration.

Tania:
Like I did lots of editorial work then in mid-career I worked for lots of corporates, which was quite interesting and a different experience and it was better pay. You've just gotta find out which jobs can bring you the right amount of money. That's equal to your career experience - you don't want to still be earning £450 a week or £300 a week for a magazine job that took you all week. I think it's working out your hourly rates and then knowing how to bill. Start setting your own fees for things instead of accepting other people's budgets. And then find out if there's something that if you're this way inclined, like I would really like to use my illustration or design work, to work with an environmental group eventually. So I can buy myself out of working time and use it for something useful. Instead of just shouting at the TV news all the time, perhaps I can use illustration to stop me getting a stomach ulcer.

Katie:
The nice thing I got goals is that they're totally like it's like flying your freak flag finding your creative voice, different things will matter to different people. So like some people will be really concerned about how much money they're making. Some will be really concerned about just making, not that you have to choose one of these, but making incredible work that they've spent ages on. Like I dunno, it's all different

Helen:
And you can change focuses as you go along as well. Cause sometimes my goal has been, I'm gonna earn some more money this year. Yeah. Gonna either take on more projects or charge more. I'm definitely gonna make more money this year. And then the next year I'll be like, do you know some of that work I made last year? I can see new avenues that will go down. My goal this year is to explore this other avenue. That's in my imagination that I can vaguely imagine somewhere. I'm gonna find it. I'm gonna really work creatively this year. Goals change all the time, don't they?

Tania:
Yeah. I think, you know, when I, I went away and I came back and said, I've had all these ideas, because you'd go on holiday and you start having a long distance, look at what you do and at your career. And I thought, I want to do some really nice maps that stay around the way children's books stay around. When you work for screen or for editorial, those things just disappear. Don't they? And for you. Yeah, they don't live. Whereas we look at Helen enviously with books that people will have in their cupboards for decades to come!

Katie:
You can walk into a book shop and your works are there.

Helen:
It's funny meeting adults who say, 'I read your book all the time when I was a baby' and they're a grown up.

Katie:
Oh my God.

Tania:
See proper longevity. I mean imagine being a first edition collectible children's book in 50 years, time, the way Winnie the Pooh is or something like that, that you could be that what's the other questions we've got are 'would it be okay to illustrate a range of covers for books already published? I'm doing that as an exercise, but I wonder if it would be okay to include those in my portfolio'.

All:
Yes, yes, yes.

Katie:
And I've written, you'll pay £10,000 a year to do that in the UK at university. Some lecturer will formulate a brief for you to re illustrate covers that already exist. It's totally a brilliant way to flex your illustration skills. Show what you can do.

Helen:
Yeah. You could do load of them, put them on your folio on your website. So people get an idea of what your work looks like. It's brilliant idea.

Tania:
And as long as you're making it clear, this, this isn't published or printed or commissioned work, this is and you know, self commissioned exercise. Yeah. And you, yeah. Self-Initiated, that's a, and you, and there's loads of other things you can do. Can't you like?

Katie:
You, you could illustrate a magazine article again, making sure that you're not saying like I've been in this magazine, like make sure that it's kind of clear that you've just mocked it up. You can album covers maps, patterns for homeware. You could draw a Ted talk. If you wanted to try out live illustration

Helen:
Packaging for your favorite tea, whatever, anything you set your brief, do anything you like!

Katie:
When you're wandering around and you see illustrated things that you love and you think, 'oh, I'd love to do that.' Just do it. Go on. Try.

Tania:
It's actually the biggest opportunity for a fantasy life. Isn't it? I never thought like this when I graduated and I really wish I did. I wasted all that time. Thinking, trying to signal to art directors who I wanted to get jobs off. Why didn't I just do the jobs I wanted and show them then they would commission me. Yeah.

Katie:
You don't need to wait for, for permission. No.

Tania:
And if Katie teaches you SEO her SEO secrets, you will be signaling. Look at my lovely tea packaging to Twinings and they will commission you.

Speaker 3:
Yeah, if someone's Googling tea, tea, packaging, illustrator, and you yeah. Put all the words on your website. Be happy, happy days.

Tania:
Oh this is a good one. <Laugh> I think we've all asked this at some point. What makes a good illustration? Is it the materials used or composition? What is it? Because when I know I'll do it, Furious, frustrated face and laughing face as well. God, we've all thought that haven't we.

Katie:
What's the secret Tania? Tell us!

Tania:
I just think it's knowing who you are. Yeah. You know, and I know that sounds really easy. And you think, well, how do I know who I am? You can ask someone else to tell you that you trust. Maybe they can describe you back to you. Or you could think like what occupies your mind, because the stuff you don't think is relevant to illustration is probably the very thing you should be illustrating. You know, you think of Gemma Correll talking about all her mental health battles. She's now one of the most accessible illustrators in social media globally because everyone totally relates to her angst and her ideas that she's drawn out. So don't think I've got to be the perfect illustrator. Ask yourself, what do you stand for? And what is it you want to say? And more importantly, how is it, how do you want to say that?

Tania:
Because what's a good currency in this business is your creative imagination and your vision, you know, composition and materials, the rest. These are just tools of the trade. I always think it's a bit like music, because you've gotta write your own songs. Even a great cover band will always just be a cover band and a regular R and B band will just be an R and B band, competent visual artist drawing anything without having any personal take on it will not get noticed. So think about the music you like and why you like it. Does it speak to you? Is it unusual? Is it because there's nothing like it. That's your mark. You've gotta stand out, stand out from the crowd and figure out who you are. Because that's the whole reason behind Freak Flag.

Helen:
It is. That's what we talk about in Freak Flag all the time. It's like using everything about you, your interests, your obsessions that have stayed with you throughout your life, recognise them and value them and draw those things. Draw those things that excite you in other bits of your life. Yeah. It's all of the other bits of your life coming together into what you draw and really appreciate them. Even if you know, some people will say, I often get asked, oh well I've got this idea about you know, like a bedtime story, but I can't do it cause other people have done it. But the point is that they'll have their own take on it. And there are so many bedtime stories, but your take on the bedtime story is what makes it magic. So is, it's what you said, Tanya. It's like knowing who you are, knowing how you see the world, drawing that. I don't think, I suppose composition and stuff. They're, they're kind of important. They're just kind of tools that'll help you make that illustration look nice,

Tania:
Attractive,

Helen:
Attractive, or whatever, but I've never formally learned anything about composition. I know the composition's working when everything seems to be singing together and there's not like a big hole in the middle of the illustration with nothing there or an area of the illustration. That's not doing any work, but I've never actually formally learned about composition.

Katie:
I think sometimes people think that at art school, you are taught these mysterious things on how to do a good illustration, but you're just sort of chucked in and left it experiment. Aren't you?

Helen:
That's that's, what's great about it really. Yeah. That, that you, you have to find it yourself and the art school environment just gives you that time and space to do it.

Tania:
And I think it's a danger. Sometimes that competency is an end goal. And I don't know if that can work depending on what you want to be. Do you want to be hung on people's walls? Do you want to make attractive, appealing images that people would like to buy? But illustration's quite, you know, demanding area in that advertisers are looking for fresh meat basically as well. So that's one sector of illustration. Obviously it's not everything but being interesting and being out even outrageous or surprising or unexpected or authentic or vulnerable are all unique things. And that's what's going to get someone to look at your work and if your work falls into those areas, then commissioners want you because they're co-opting personalities. There was, again, going back to that discussion on Inky Goodness, they were talking about illustrators now that are maybe working a lot about inclusivity, whether that's gender, sexuality body image and corporates need to co-op those values into how people perceive them.

Tania:
It could be Nike, it could be Apple or whatever. So they're they're maybe you could say they're virtue signaling, but they're looking for illustrators who represent those values and get them to work for 'em because it gives them the kudos. So who you are and what you stand for is really important. Particularly now where we're in quite a political climate and it didn't used to be, politics was a big no-no in work, but now it's not small politics with a small P is useful for commissioners. So being someone and standing for something is way more important than it used to be.

Katie:
Yeah. And it's more important than how to use watercolors, which composition is the best. And those are the things that fall into place when you experiment and keep drawing and drawing and drawing and drawing. And you'll you always talk about the gap that Ira Glass quote and that your taste that you've got really good taste because you want to beI'm butchering this - you've got good taste basically and you know what looks good and what doesn't look good. And it just takes a while for your ability to catch up with your brain being like, oh, that looks good.

Tania:
And finally I'm as I'm as good as my taste, but that takes a long while. I, I don't think I'm certainly not there. No.

Helen:
Do you ever get there? I feel like that's the excitement of illustration. You're always striving for the next thing. Aren't you? I've always like got something around the corner. That's like, I don't really know what it is about. I'm really looking forward to being there. That's what keeps me going.

Katie:
It would be boring if you just completed illustration. Finished! My career is done! Creative expression fulfilled.

Tania:
So where were gonna talk about contracts? Where are we businessy things. Yeah.

Katie:
We get a lot of questions about contracts. How do they work? Do we need them?

Helen:
I find it really interesting when you two talk about contracts, because they, they have bear some resemblance to a picture book contract, but in other ways completely not. So you two talk about things like pinning down how many sets of roughs you'll do before artwork. And if the client asks for more than that, you would either say no, or there's some clause in there that you'll be paid extra money. It's really not like that in picture books. Because it's like a, you're a team working with your editor and your designer. And say I demanded that after the second round of roughs, that was it a finished book. I would be really unhappy with the results!

Helen:
It takes me numerous sets of dummy books or thumbnail sketches before I even know what the story is and structure it properly. And then I might make a dummy book and flick through it and think, oh, it's a bit baggy there. Or the editor might say there's too much happening on this double page spread. Let's try and steal another spread somewhere else. And we really work as a team. And if we tried to fit all that into two rounds of roughs, it would be totally impossible. So if I tried to enforce that in a contract, I probably won't work again.

Tania:
How long does a book project take that? I think time is the difference in all of this as well. Isn't it?

Helen:
It takes as long as a piece of string.

Helen:
Like I have had books where, so that I did a book for UNICEF and it was really, really time pressured. And I think I did it in five weeks. That's the fastest I've ever done.

Tania:
Wow. Yeah. How many, how many illustrations?

Helen:
Oh, it was just a board book. So maybe six spreads.

Katie:
Right? Were you happy with it at the end? Yeah. Yeah. That's

Helen:
Good. Especially considering the time restrains on it. Yeah. I've just been into Walker books actually. And I can't talk about it cause it's not out yet, but they've got a book that is under severe time restraints. It's a book for charity. They had to have the whole thing done within like six weeks or something like crazy, crazy, crazy task. And the illustrator who's illustrated it very famous, brilliant illustrator. And I looked at the work and realized it was her, but it was completely different. And that's because she'd only had a few weeks. So she'd just used pastel, no layers of paint. None of the usual stuff she does. It was brilliant. Really lovely, but a real minimalistic version of her work. And then other books, books take me. I remember one, it was a nightmare actually took three years because my editor kept changing all the time and they had a new idea. And so that's when the contract's a bit annoying because if you have a new editor with new ideas, you don't have a contract to say that's it we're finished now. But usually if I've got happy relationship with my team, maybe six months or a year to make a book. But I'm happy with that. I wouldn't want, if I, if I demanded we've finished on the second round of roughs, it would be a really, really bad picture book.

Katie:
I like that. It sounds like an organic thing between you and publisher and stuff and the editor and like you are working together because you all want it to be good.

Helen:
Exactly. We've all got the same goal. We all want it to be good. And if I pick my playmates well, we're gonna have such a nice time in the playground making that book.

Katie:
Yeah. And then the final book itself would be amazing as well.

Helen:
Yes. You'll be able to see that in the book.

Katie:
Yeah. I feel like I rock up. Oh see the word rock up. Last week I was like, I hate people say rock up and now like I leave it only say rock

Tania:
You're younger. You're allowed to say rock up.

Katie:
I don't normally say it! Okay. So when I turn up to a client job I feel like I'm there as a service provider. They're always big corporate clients usually. And they're like, we need this job done. We want to know that you're gonna deliver it and exactly how much it'll cost and then job's done and it's, it's not like goodbye. Never see you again. Cause sometimes they come well like more and more. They come back and see me again. But it's very much like one and done. So the contract is very businessy. That's like, I will do a tech rehearsal with you and it could take up to this time and then I'll do the job and it'll take this time and I'll deliver the illustrations here. And the license that you get for the usage is this like, and I feel like it's, I, I give a very generous license because I don't want their notes. It's for a random meeting that I'm never gonna see again. And I'm like, if that makes them happy, because they're like, oh amazing. It's so kind of you to give us this licence.

Tania:
That's brilliant. Have they not treated like that by other illustrators?

Katie:
Maybe not!

Tania:
But also it's a short, it's the extreme of Helen's isn't it's a very short relationship. The job, even if you have repeat business.

Katie:
And sometimes people will get in touch. They're like, 'we've got a meeting on Wednesday' on Monday morning. They'll email me and I'll be like, okay, here's the contract. Get it signed show up on Wednesday. Job's done. They pay.

Helen:
It is you at the extreme end of where I, you are at the opposite end of where I am. Like your job can take like an hour. Yeah. And you've illustrated everything. It's all done. Whatever you did in that hour. That's it. End of.

Katie:
And sometimes I don't even speak to them. It's like a couple of emails I'll show up on the zoom call and have it done. And they'll were like, oh, that was brilliant. Thank you.

Helen:
So your contract has to be tight because you've got to protect yourself in that. Yeah. You've got to make sure that they know where all the boundaries are.

Katie:
And I mean like touch wood, everyone's always been nice. They've always paid. I've never, ever had a non-payer touch wood again. I think it is very clear cut. It's like going to a shop and buying a loaf of bread. They're like the bread is gonna be in my basket and I'm gonna go home and make toast. And then we're done.

Tania:
Yeah. All over. But it's like, we've got all three stages. I'll have maybe a one week to a two month, three month relationship with a client and there might be the odd phone call. So you get to know the voice, but a lot of it's disembodied emails and I will always send them terms and conditions laying out, you know, basic guidelines. If you cancel at rough stage or you cancel halfway through, you'll be liable for 30%, 40%. Because that does happen. And a lot to illustrators. And then I think it's the rounds like you said to stop, you called it scope creep. Yeah. I was thinking who's he <laugh> does he live in there? <Laugh> horrible. Have I seen him? But yeah. Scope creep where they get, you know, you, if you don't give your version of what you've been briefed to do, it's always good to write it down and then give them a copy of those notes and say, is this as far as you can tell, is what we've agreed to do.

Tania:
And once they sign, sign that off. That's great. So anything beyond that, you charge out at a daily or hourly rate. So you've got a very clear description of the boundaries of the brief and you know, when they've asked to do something else and the other thing is the changes. So maybe you say we have two rounds of changes, one at black and white rough stage. And you need to collate all the feedback from everyone into that one, one stage. And then I'll give you another opportunity for a round of changes at color, rough stage. Sometimes give them two sets of changes there. And also things like the feedback. You don't want people waiting two weeks to give you feedback. When you've booked clients in for over two months, you need to know that everything slots together. So you request that the feedback happens within a day or two days at most and then final artwork. So everyone knows where they stand. But that to impose that on picture books would be so rigid. I can just imagine you would never get that. Or like you said, Katie, the organic winding journey of a, of a picture book and the right to do the revisions you feel you want to do,

Helen:
Especially that bit. You said they're about feedback within a couple of days because they're working on lots of books at the same time. Yeah. So I couldn't ask them to give me feedback within a couple of days. Also when they do give me feedback, I couldn't give results to that feedback within a couple of days. Because I have to think it through, I have to sleep on it. It's like a two way thing, isn't it? Yeah. because sometimes they'll send a piece of advice and I'll go what? No what? No, no. That's a terrible idea. And then a few days go past and now it's sunk in a bit and I'm like, yeah, they were absolutely right. Yeah. If I change that, it really makes a difference the way they start the, you know, nuance of the story or pull together a lot better. So I hate to take my first reaction. I don't like to take my first reaction. Yeah. As it, I like to sleep on it, leave it a few days. Where am I now? Hmm. Sometimes I start agreeing sometimes I think no, actually that spread is really important. I've got fight for that spread. That's gonna stay there. But sometimes they were right. So yeah. Feedback within a day or two either way would be really bad.

Tania:
Yeah. That's so funny. It's so enviable. Isn't it? The world of picture book illustration.

Katie:
I'm like, oh god... Thinking about working on something for six months makes me like, oh no help. I get commitment phobia.

Tania:
It's amazing how completely different our experiences of illustration is as a profession and how we relate to clients differently.

Helen:
This is why we started the good ship. Isn't it? Cause we would have cups of tea together and we'd realized we were all we're all illustrators. But our experience was, was so completely different. Say what you doing? Yeah. What does your contract say? What? Yeah. And then we realized other people might want to listen in on those conversations. That's why we're here.

Tania:
Well, it is because it, whether we could ask you, especially children's picture books, so many people are in it, but no one knows how it works except when you're inside it. And because illustrators didn't talk to each other. Well, I mean we were, we were in a big studio and I did learn some things, but the most I learned was working for a design group in Hong Kong called origin who became really good friends of mine. And they would teach me, well, they would, they would talk in terms of how they ran a design group. And so they would say things like right, Bella's doing the scheduling and Bella would show me the schedule for the project. So they knew what that project was priced at. They could only afford to give three weeks to it. So they would schedule in submission feedback and revision dates for absolutely everything else.

Tania:
Oh, that's how a high functioning creative works and knows what they're gonna earn at the end of the year. And that's important. You need to know how much you're billing out for. And then, you know, there's lots of other stuff they would teach, like not exactly teach, but like I say, I would, I would discover from them, they'd say, well, could you do something like 15 illustrations? And we'll build a visual library for this client. They may not need them all. They might only need seven now, but we're gonna offer them 15. So that later on they've got visuals for the ads. Maybe you could do some textures in there as well. And there are so many different ways of selling illustration and design groups understand that creative agencies and ad agencies and getting the other side of the business reveal so much about what illustrators can be. Once you, when you're looking out at the people who are commissioning you, it's a very singular perspective and you think I'm just me and I just do these kind of things. It's amazing. What, how designers view illustrators? Yeah.

Katie:
There's a whole world. And so whereas we're in three totally different areas. And there'll be, bajillions more areas in between those as well.

Helen:
There will be like just the area of illustrating older fiction. I do picture books, but older fiction is a whole different level of contracts and how those projects work out.

Tania:
Yeah. It's more niche than we imagine.

Katie:
Mm-Hmm I suppose, long, long answer short, we all have contracts and they're very important. Yeah.

Tania:
Yeah. Get everything down on paper

Helen:
And don't work for free unless you will really benefit in some other way. Yeah. Like really, really weigh up whether it's worth working for free.

Tania:
If it's your absolute pet charity or cause, and you want to better it. You make those decisions. But there are so many people who have their passion projects and they come to you and say, this is my passion project. Will you help me make it work? It's not your passion project. You don't have to help them make it work. Save your energy for your passion project.

Katie:
Even charities...they have budgets, and they've got funding. So that's another thing as well. Like fair enough. Some do, if it's your favorite charity and you want to donate your time. Fair enough. But if charities come to you asking for free work, they'll be getting paid to ask you to do the work. Yes. Like the people in the office get paid living normal wage. So I think that's worth mentioning.

Tania:
Yeah.

Katie:
But the whole working for free thing. Oh my God. We could talk about that for hours. That's a whole nother kettle of fish.

Tania:
Okay. So that's, that's all for now isn't it.

Speaker 3:
Yes. Thank you for your questions. Send us your message in a bottle!

New Speaker:
If you'd like to learn more about The Good Ship, you can go to www.thegoodshipillustration.com. We also hang out on Instagram we are @TheGoodShipIllustration and yeah, we'll see you later.

New Speaker:
Brilliant.

New Speaker:
Bye. Bye.