Hi, we're the good ship illustration. And we run online courses to help illustrators and image makers navigate a creative career. We are Tanya, Katie and Helen, we have about 70 years experience between us, each of us working in a different area of illustration. Welcome to message in a bottle of our new podcast answering your questions, you can send your messages to Goodship elo@gmail.com. And title it message in a bottle. So we know what it's about. This time we're doing a picture book podcast. We've got three brilliant questions. We've got one from Katherine steel. Do you want to read that one out? Yes. Okay. So Catherine says, my question is, is it a good idea to use your own kids for picture book stories? Or would they just end up being too personal? I don't, what else would get them? My kids inspire me so much. What I think it's a brilliant idea. Definitely. I know. After pi was born, it completely changed the way that I thought about picture books. Because before she was born, I only really thought about how lovely the images were. And I didn't think too much. This is a bit embarrassing for a picture book illustrated. But I didn't think too much about connecting with the child. So like when she was born my whole framework of how to make a book change completely. And also, she was just really inspiring all the things she said and did, how she saw the world. So yeah, I think it's a really good idea. But the only thing that I would say is that when I used to teach the MBA students, sometimes they would want to draw their children or write a story about their children. But they were so invested in the literal story of their children that it was hard to edit it to make it into something that made a really good story, if you know what I mean, too. It's that thing about killing your darlings, isn't it? Yeah, I suppose that's the ultimate thing you don't want to edit out. Like, all everything your child does is amazing. And important. Yeah, it's really hard to edit it down and make it so how to hide a lion is based on my daughter. But I changed the name to Iris so that when she became a teenager, she could claim it wasn't her in case it became embarrassing. Is she embarrassed about it? Are she proud of it? No. Well, until really recently, she always wanted me to visit her school and talk about the book. And she really really loved it. But now No, because I'll be going anywhere near school. And yeah, that's. Yeah. Yeah, no, no, no, it's not cool. Now. What was he gonna say about that? But, yeah, so it's not literally about her because she meets a lion. And obviously, that didn't happen in real life. Yeah. You know, using your children, it's a really good idea. But you don't want to become so invested in the truth. Because the truth is so amazing. Isn't it so amazing. We can become so invested in their truth that it's hard to edit the story into shape. So that would be my only warning. Proceed with caution. Yeah, that's from a writing point of view. Or storyline art. What about drawing from life? Did you base Iris on drawings that you made of your daughter, a best Iris on PI. But I barely ever drew from life. It was too hard because she honestly she's so amazing. I could never sum it up and like your own child is so wonderful, aren't they? That trying to represent that in a drawing is almost impossible. It's too much pressure. I found it really really hard. Anyone you love that? You think is that amazing? Yeah, it's impossible to draw. I think so. Just the Battle of your love and your pencils. Yeah, the pressure is too high. Yeah. What were you saying? Is there a way to draw your own children is to just rainbows and sunbeams. Cheesy, you can just never reflect everything that you feel about them. As you said, everyone thinks that you must draw your child a lot. And so you have a few goes and then give up and say how many drawings Do you have? are very few observational drawings. 10 She's 14. Very read. I think I've got to say though, I really tried hard, especially when they were toddlers when they move too much. But, you know, there's a few drawers, they look like someone else's kids as well. But there's not that many think illustrators would have loads more. And they got drawn twice. And even then Cameron was like, oh, doesn't look like I could just see your, your children could be two there's two possibilities. They could either be it's their characteristics, and they're written in that child, or you draw from them. I suppose it's two different ways or both. Yeah, I kind of drew her from memory but making an intro character so that wasn't too what's the word restricted or too literal? And then I used her as inspiration like there's a part in how to add ally and where The Lion gets a thorn in his poor and she has a little box of plasters and puts a plaster on it. And that's because at one point when free when power was small, she loved plasters. So if you ever said to her, would you lay it? Would you like a little prison? Let's get you a toy today. We'd go straight to boots and glasses. All of her Teddy's are plastered all over them like it. She was just obsessed with them. Amazing. So yeah, like little things like that turn up in the books. And that's the lovely thing about children's books when there's a bit of truth. Yeah, children are like that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Other mothers recognize it. And then children recognize it. Yeah, I'm not being a children's book illustrator. I didn't have any urge to make a children's book until they were beginning to speak. And slightly. So your relationship with children's books completely changes. And they know their specific cup. They know that aren't they know their teddy. So I just sort of I just made these quickly get make a book of photographs of the objects so I can show them and they'll get, then they'll speak it was a very kind of practical, uninspired, technical thing. But then I got so obsessed, I started making all these books, all the objects, photographing them in a special way. But it was great because the interaction between a near speaking child and a picture book is crucial. That's amazing. I want to see those. Literally, I just do attend them put them on a color background, I got a favorite photos. It's really good. It was another of my empire plans. I thought maybe I will make custom books repeat. Business. I thought about it. My mom was too busy to multitask to take it forward. When pylon to speak. I would write down with a word she said first and then the weird word she had for things. And some of those weird words lingered on for years, like a dressing gown was aggressing down until she was about 10. Because we couldn't correct it. Because it was so lovely to be able to write a book with a lot of crazy words. Yeah, yeah. It's like, books are like holding memories, aren't they? containers for what they were like at a certain point. So even if you make a book for yourself, which is probably a good way to start a children's book by accidentally make one because of the things you love. And then they're universal. Yeah. Okay. Should we have another question? So this one came from Adam Ming, and he actually sent it to my SaltStack. But it's such a good question. I thought we should answer it here. He asks how we tackle development work, which is really interesting. So I don't know what it's like for you to but in a world of picture books, development work is usually if a publisher have a story in mind, they might approach you ask you to do some sample pieces, and then they'll make up their mind about whether you're right for the job. So in that circumstance, I charge a fee, because they've approached me. And the other way that I would do it is if I have an idea, the idea starts with me, and I write the story. And I draw thumbnails and stuff, and I approach the publisher. In that situation. I don't charge for those samples, because to do it, it's my idea. And it's in my interest to have made that work already. So those are the two way it works in publishing. What's the copyright? Like, if you do development work for the publisher? Do you retain the copyright even though they paid you to do that development? Do you mean if they send me a story, and I do some samples? I think it's really vague. So I did some samples for a book a couple of years ago that I would really have liked to illustrate. And it didn't happen. But I really liked the character. But obviously, the author didn't write how the character is going to look. So I drew her look in a certain way. And I really liked how she looks. I didn't get the book, and I've actually turned her into a character of my own. It's your intellectual properties. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think maybe publishing is a more honorable profession, children's book publishers. So people are less likely to then make a child you know, a character based on that they need you there to continue it. But yeah, I often wonder in generalized illustration, when you've handed in work for development projects, for example, the one I'm thinking about when in the 90s, we were all asked to do a figure with a trumpeting kind of horn in blue and yellow with a kind of pixie figure or some mythical Greek god blown this trumpet, which then of course, became the BT logo. And they gave this out to nodes. This is like the 90s bt logo years ago, they gave out to loads of illustrators. And they paid a set fee that I think they took the copyright as well, so they could use it in anything they wanted. So you know, certain areas like merchandising or generalized publishing, you'd want to clarify whether they have the rights or not to use it, development studies. But I think in again, editorial or illustration for design, it's pitching isn't it? There was people get really want quite rightly so. The idea that you shouldn't free pitch and lots of people will ask for free free pitches. And then designers will come to illustrators and say, We haven't got a fee, or sometimes they will give a fee. But we're all pitching for a big multinational. Will you do illustration? Either for free? Or will you for quite a low fee? Because the clients not paying us? But the idea is no one should free pitch, because ethically, it messes up the business. And do they give you an idea of how many other people are pitching? Do you know how likely it is you would get their work? I don't know. Actually, I guess it depends on the job. But quite often, if you've got a good website, you just say, Well, if you if you need to know whether I'm right for the job or not just look at my website, I was asked by a bank to pitch some drawings of Hong Kong. And given that I already draw Hong Kong. I said, Why do I have to draw it again, go to the website? Like could you do some a4 pencil drawings of Hong Kong? And because they were a bank, they didn't know how to brief and you know, it wasn't that their field of expertise. So it sounded a bit peculiar, eventually persuade them to do we just don't need to go through this. Just look at the website. And you'll know if I'm right, that's not I think it is. Yeah, and I think it's the same for me in publishing. So if somebody does ask me to do some development drawings, I don't do very much, because they've got all of my books to look out on my website to look at. So say they pay me a little development fee, 400 pounds or something, I might do three or four layout pages, or a three layout page pages in black and white with a with ink and a black crayon or something. I don't do more than that, you know, because I've got my website, I don't need to work out colors. Yeah, if I get the contract, I would, I would go to that later, I assume they know who I am. And they can look at my website. So that's, that's really the importance of a good website, your website should kind of do the talking for you. Do you get asked for development work, sometimes people get in touch because they're pitching to a client, and they want to pitch live illustration. So I've put together a deck for them to use. So then it's like, here's some examples of my work. But I'm not going to create work for you, unless you pay me for it. So I've also I've had people get in touch with like, wanting to pilot live illustrations either or work for a company. And I'm like, okay, book one session, like you don't have to book loads and loads of them. And that means they could do one thing, one event to see if they like it, if they do like it work together again. And I might give them a block discount, but I'm not going to discount that one time. So I never do it for free. It's the same thing. I'm like, if you've seen my website, for my work looks like you're not gonna get any surprises. But I know when I was starting out, and you know what it's like when you do anything for anyone who website is just everything. So the client is quite ready to be like, what are you going to do? Because yeah, when you're making your portfolio on your website, you want to make it so they kind of know what they're gonna get, you've got a way of working, there's not going to be like a total wildcard, which comes back to consistency doesn't Yeah, finding your creative voice. And people say, Do I need one style? Or can I have three styles on my website with I mean, you could have three, but as long as you can point to one of them to reassure a client, who understandably scared about spending a huge chunk of cash and not knowing what they're going to get. And like you would for the mapping thing. If people say we'd like a map, and I think when a map is multiple things, which which map Do you want. So I finally learned, like you to put deck together show. It's simpler maps, complex maps, visitor navigational maps, all different stuff, and then giving them some kind of price point. But I think that thing of I meant to say some people don't know what, what we mean by a deck a PDF, that just as a template that's branded, isn't it, showing different examples that you can just send out to someone? Pre development isn't that often offsets the need for development? Because they're like, oh, okay, right. So the six styles of increasing complexity, and these are the price points, I don't need development work, a made together as if somebody is not going to see my website. So if they're sharing a meeting, I'm going to give it to these people. Yeah, some examples of my work, I'd love to hear from you. So it's very straightforward that they're asking you to do them a favor, rightly. So they might if I'm going to pitch you would you present yourself. So I don't even have to think about or write a paragraph about you. You do all the work. That's your kind of. That's the extra minutes you're going forward for me to represent you. I think going back to Adams question, I think during development work for free, is it ever a good idea? I think it's only a good idea if you've written the story yourself. So if you're the writer and illustrator, and you're taking your idea to a publisher, they might say to you, I want to take this to an acquisitions meeting to see if we can what we're going to pay you on what the contract will be, blah, blah. And under those circumstances, sometimes they'll say Will you draw us a rough of the cover? So that marketing and sales people can see what the cover would be like? So in those circumstances, I do work for free. Because if they say no, I take it to another publisher anyway. Yeah. But if they approached me with their story, then Charge is basically if you if anything begins with, I've got a great idea and you want someone else to implement it, then you're doing it for free. If it's the other way around, they pay you. Yeah, exactly. So we've got one more question. This was a substack question as well. It came from Sandy. And it is which way round should your character face? I think she was specifically talking about book covers, but I think it counts inside the book as well. So you want your character to face the direction of travel through the book? And then she she was asking specifically about on your cover? Could you have your character face in the spine? And I was thinking about this, the rule is really no, because if your character is facing the spine, you're kind of being pointed in the wrong direction in the book, the only way your character will face the spine is if they're facing another character, and they're looking at each other. You know what I mean? Then one of them will be looking that way. But in the translate the cordage, and the translations, do they flip it? If you read right to left? I've never had one flipped? No. No. Interesting. Yeah. No, I wonder about that. Because then for them is backwards, isn't it? So? Yeah. Yeah, I've never had one printed backwards. Also emojis, they all go the wrong way. Don't know. So I suppose they're designed by designers, a different culture in different cultures who made things the other way? So every time I want to type in, I'm on the train, train, and it looks like I'm going home. Yeah, it's really drives me insane. It's the same as portfolio placement. And you know, if someone walks out to the left, or if you've got a double page spread, if they're facing out to the outer pages, outside of the pages, it looks like sadness or departure. Yeah. So yeah, if they're looking in, it's communal. So the emotional quality that you're trying to convey in an image is really important which way the character faces. But when you think about the play button, the triangle play button on it musical equipment, whatever. Entity remote controls, it's always traveling rights that you were saying love that. That's the active scribing as like, everything looks towards where the information is gone, as well. Yeah, just feels wrong in a book. If you suddenly get to a double page spread, you turn over the page, and the character is walking back when you go in. And the only time you would do that as if in your story, your character genuinely like in I want my hat back by Jon Klassen. So the bear is going along, looking through his heart. He's going left, right, left, right. And then he suddenly remembers, oh, I think I saw my hat back there. And he stops, and then he heads back the other way. But as soon as he's heading back the other way, he stops, he turns around, he's right to left, then you turn over the page. And now he's left to write again, because he's on the journey again. Yeah, that's the only situation really that's a good device. Yeah. In that one. Yeah. So for the cover, you would say always have the character facing the right, either facing out? Eye contact? Yeah. Happy eye contact or face into the right. Bodily facing to the right. Yeah. With the face turning out to the audience would be the optimum. Yes. Yes. Okay. All that. Well, I think we answered everything they wanted. And if you're listening to this, or you're interested in picture books, you've listened to this a good time because the picture book doors are now open. And we'd love to have you on board and if you're listening to this later, when the doors are closed, you can join the waiting list and we'd love to have your sailing with us. It's an eight week course and the cover creating your own picture book. Making your best picture book work ever. Yep. How to get it out there in the world. How to share it with everybody get it seen. Get the right eyes on it. Yeah, tell Helen tells it all the things and Tanya and I cheerlead. Were my guinea pigs. You can find us on cruise ship. demonstration.com. Look for the picture book course. Yes, we'll put links in the description. Hopefully, bye bye bye bye.