Hello, and welcome to the good ship illustration podcast. This series is a special picture book series of podcast question and answer sessions. Right now the doors to the picture book course are open. So you can just Google the good ship picture book course. And we should show up, but will pop a link in the description as well. So, yes, let's get started.
Helen:I was going to add Katie, we've got a special q&a on Wednesday on Instagram Live, haven't we? Seven o'clock Wednesday? Yeah, turn up. ask all your questions there about the course or picture books, whatever.
Katie:Yeah. And if you want to make sure you get all the email reminders and stuff, just make sure you're getting our emails which you can do on our website, the good ship illustration.com. Yeah, we'll see you there.
Unknown:Brilliant. Shall we start with a question, Tanya?
Tania:Yeah, this one is quite long question. But it's a really interesting one. So we've got a question here from an illustrator of picture books. And she says, is it actually possible to make a total living out of picture books. I've been creating books for 11 years, and I'm lucky enough to have contracts with both large and small publishers. But to help financially support me, I have quite an intense part time job two days a week. So I'm constantly struggling between the two and family, etc. How do you make the leap to being a full time children's author, illustrator, or illustrating full time?
Helen:Now? This is such a good question, isn't it? Because I think we've all been through that stage where you've got, you know, you're starting out as an illustrator, but you're still supporting yourself in another way? I think the answer is, well, it's so it's different for everybody, isn't it, but I think a good idea is just is to have a few streams of income at first for those first few years. So you could, you could have an online shop, or you could write on substack, which I'm obsessed about at the moment, I just love it. It's brilliant for illustrators, you could be a regular regular contributor to a children's magazine, when I started out, I did a monthly article for Bayer press. Or you could do school visits. And all of these things bring in extra streams of income, which is really handy. And then it means you can say no to certain jobs. So picture book publishers pay such hugely varied amounts of money, some of them pay, you know, literally a quarter of what another one will pay. And British publishers play less than American publishers, because American publishers have got such a big audience. And British publishers need to rely on coalition. So if you've got another stream of income, it gives you that control over who you're going to work for. So if somebody comes to you with a really low offer, you can go back and ask for more money without worrying that they're just gonna walk away, you can walk away from those jobs. So another stream of income gives you that kind of control to decide who you're going to work for. I think it's really hard to just decide you're going to make more picture books, though, because there are massive labor of love. And they're not easy, and it takes a long time. So I think something like substack, or school visits that are just, you know, they're quite instant. They're a much easier way of supporting yourself, and it's still creative, and you meet other creatives. And it's fun.
Katie:Yeah, and that thing you mentioned about the shop, having your own shop or not, I was talking to you about that Mr. Bingo thing. And he had like a little diagram, and it was making work for making work to help big companies sell more stuff, or making your own work. And it was like the happiness level was so much higher, it's different, because it's picture because he loved making picture books anyway. But ultimately, you're helping publishers sell books. Whereas if you're making your own stuff to sell in a shop, you've got more control over it. And you can set your own pricing and all that kind of thing. So it's the multiple streams of income thing for all kinds of illustration, I feel like it's sort of essential, isn't it? I think
Helen:it feeds both ways, as well. So if you, if you say have an online shop, and you want people to go to your online shop, and you're building up a bit of an audience on Instagram, or substack, or something, and you're pointing people at your shop, you're also pointing publishers at your shop, and your publishers come into your Instagram account, and they see that your shop is successful, it's got pretty things in it. And so you'll get more offers from publishers. So then you've got more control over demand and what you need to be paid or choosing which publisher is going to be the right publisher. So it all feeds in to make like a happy bigger picture of your work life.
Tania:There's also that aspect of children's book illustration and that style of work and that content is so popular. I mean, the American illustrators do it. They license their work in either print or pattern, or they do art prints for nurseries. But also advertisers really need children's book illustration to advertise children's products. So you see a lot of successful children's book illustrators are straddling two or three markets that they might do the packaging for children's cereals, or particularly foods as well. Yeah, that's not done by regular illustrators. Because I think it's specific to a children's book language. So there's potentially loads more work for children book, children's picture book illustrators, if you look into the area of packaging, design, surface print Homewares. So, yeah, maybe licensing agents would be good as well. That would be another stream of income. Yeah,
Katie:it's almost like a widening your idea of what is like a success, isn't it? Because it doesn't just because you have to be a picture book illustrator doesn't mean you only do picture books, you can widen it if you're drawing pictures, and I'm gonna good time at the end page. So it all counts.
Tania:Yeah. I mean, look at things like the, the interest in folktale week on Instagram, though, the work that comes out of photo week could be used on stationary product. There's no There's so many kinds of fairies and wolves and trolls, and mushrooms. And those things are, I know, they're quite trend based. But that means there is the potential to use those on, on notebooks on fabrics on art prints, I think look wider than just publishers and see who's you know, which kind of agencies are working with products that appeal to parents?
Katie:Yeah, I know, in the in our zoom calls inside the course, we've had people talk about the rock star thing. And then like is being a children's book illustrator, like being a rock star like is like five ones that getting paid loads, and everyone else is like, that is every industry isn't until at the top 1% Earn 90 something percent of the income, do you think yes,
Helen:oh, it's definitely the same for picture books, like people right at the top of their game are being paid a lot more than people starting out. And the reason they get paid more is that the publisher know that they're going to bring them lots of royalties in. So your payment is an advance on your royalties. So they pay you so you get 10,000 pounds. That's an advance. So they need to know that you're going to sell 10,000 pounds worth of books to pay off that advance. And then you get royalties after that, if that makes sense. So the publishers that have been paid a huge amount of money, the publisher? No, did I say the publishers that have been paid? I mean, the picture book makers that have been paid a huge amount of money. That's because they've got a history of really good sales. And so the publisher know they can take that risk. So yeah,
Katie:basically, publishers are gamblers. And if you're if you're a dead cert, you get big bucks. Yeah, a new risky one.
Helen:Yeah. And it really, really helps once you've got one good seller under your belt, because you're, you're gonna get your royalties every quarter, every half every six months. And publishers are gonna know that they can pay you a bit more. So yeah, you need a good seller. How do you do that? Yeah, I don't know. But
Katie:when you get into it, and not be disheartened, and know that there are other things you can do to keep things going well, you get your best seller. Yeah, yeah,
Unknown:exactly.
Tania:How would you go about getting an American publisher if they pay more? Yeah, say as an English or British pitch bookmaker, how would you get?
Helen:Well, I've never done it. Because, you know, I started in the 90s. Nobody ever suggested to me that I get an American publisher. It's only in recent years that I've started to think, oh, maybe I could. But I'm so happy with my British publishers. We're such good friends. And they're here and I can see them face to face. It just feels easy and nice. So I've not done it. But I imagine it's the same as approaching a British publisher, I imagine. Send them samples. I mean, most of my meetings are on Zoom now anyway, so I don't think it make any difference. I don't think their mind where you live. And there are also agents in the UK who will represent you in America. So that's a possibility.
Tania:Yes, like when we went to Bologna, you can see where your work fits as well. And it might be that European work doesn't fit with the American market, and vice versa. So it's worth kind of investigating what American publishers put out there to see if you'd be a fit. I mean, some British probably British illustrators might be a better fit for that market.
Helen:Yeah, there are definitely illustrators I know who have had a British publisher. And then the British publisher has sold a coalition to an American publisher. And then that Illustrator has just gone straight to the American publisher with the next book. Oh, that's another Yeah.
Tania:Should we do another question? Or have you got Have you got more on that one?
Unknown:I think we're there. Should we do another question?
Katie:A little quickie one? Yeah.
Tania:Oh, there was one here. That might be a quick one. I'm looking for an agent. Do I send them my portfolio? Or should I send them my book dummy.
Helen:I would send them whatever you're most proud of. Like don't hide your best thing at home. If your book dummy. If you're really proud of your dummy, send it to the agent. You don't want to hide your best stuff at home. They want to see some really good images, send them your favorite stuff. Drawer all of your envelopes. So they want to open it. Make sure you've got a link to your website in there so they can go and have a closer look your Instagram account. But yeah, don't be shy. Just send them, send them everything. So them, whatever you you know, your favorite things, share your brownies. Yeah, share your brownies. Exactly.
Tania:It would make sense that you think if your book is the thing you're most proud of. That's what that's your first shot. Second shot is, if you didn't like my book, here's my full range of work. What do you think? Can you make sense of me? Have I got a book in me?
Helen:Yeah. I mean, they might look at the dummy book you send and think, Well, it's not quite there. But I've looked at the folio, and I love it. So I'll give them a call, you know,
Katie:your Instagram and see but to your sketchbook and be like, hang on a minute, look at these sketchy characters that are undeveloped, and this person's got lots of potential, we can put them into shape.
Unknown:Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Katie:Don't save it for best. Holding back a good stuff.
Helen:I think people sometimes worry that if they send their stuff, somebody might nick it, don't they? But the thing is, if you if you have that mindset, then you're never going to show anybody your stuff, you've got to take that risk. And I've never heard I mean, if your work is really individual, if you're flying your freak flag, like we always talk about, why would they look at your amazing idea and think, brilliant, we'll get somebody else to do that. I've just not heard of it happening. And if you don't take that risk, then your brilliant idea is just gonna stay under the cushion on your sofa, isn't it?
Tania:No one's ever gonna see your work. There is a lot of fear of that people do remember, we've had questions about Instagram. I'm a bit scared to put my work on Instagram in case people copy it, should I put a watermark over it? There's nothing
Katie:worse when you're on Instagram with a giant watermark. Why have you done that? I can't see your work. Now,
Helen:what we the thing, we always talk about the good ship. And the reason we made our freak flag costs were and within the picture book costs as well as to teach people to be 100% themselves. Because when you're completely yourself in your work, even if somebody loves it, and they copy it for a little while they love it. And so they're gonna have a go at it. They can't authentically be you for very long. They can only draw what they saw you draw on Instagram. So it's a no, it's a no go for them, you know? Yeah, if your work is really individual, and it really expresses you, you've got nothing to worry about.
Tania:Yeah, and that's both in content and, and the approach and the visual language of your work. Because anyone copying, it's just going to be like a kind of cover band, it gets drained of all life after a while and it shows in the work. So differentiate yourself. And no one's really going to want to come after you because they can't truly be you.
Katie:That's a thing as well, like when you share really generously, in my experience that's never ever gone badly. But if you feel like sharing loads, oh, it always comes back. Like I don't know if that's a thing like just you sharing all your good stuff. You're being yourself. People are just like, Yeah, and if they don't like you, they bugger off. So many just was left with a nice people.
Helen:Yeah, yeah. It wasn't focused on the people of bugger off basically. Yeah. Because they can they're not your people just let them that's fine. The people who really like it, were you know, you'll gather more of them.
Katie:And all the publisher rejections that you get, they're just getting closer to the good ones that are going to be like, not, maybe not no, but not yet. Or Oh, yes.
Helen:Yeah, exactly. You know, if you send your stuff to a publisher, and you don't hear back, don't be disheartened, because lots of publishers have a huge pile of envelopes to open. And they might only get to that pile of envelopes once every three months or six months, or maybe even never. So if you don't hear back from them, it's not because your work was no good. It's because they're just so busy. And they might find you through Instagram. So send out your samples, but be really active on Instagram or substack, or wherever you like to show your work. You know, they might just find you another way.
Katie:Yeah. Was that other one? As you always assume positive intent. So yeah, like, imagine your publisher with this giant stack of envelopes. They're definitely not sitting there going like, Oh, look at this horrible. I'm not gonna reply. It's probably they just haven't seen it. Or if they have seen it, they're swamped with loads of other things. So that's like a tip for life actually assume positive intent.
Tania:Yeah, I love that. I've never heard that before. But it's got to be the best way to go there
Katie:just to see if Oh, they just forgot fine like that or hate me.
Helen:Well, I had a chat with Camilla Reed, who, who used to be who used to work at nosy crow. And she said that the amount of samples they get sent in, they're lucky if they can look through them every six months. And they're so busy working with the illustrators that they already have, or they're looking, looking around for people that they think might fit a particular book, that that pile of samples. It can sit there for a really long time, but they're not judging it. They're not saying it's really bad. It's just they've very rarely get the time to get to it.
Katie:Yeah. That's got to be reassuring. Yeah, is Yeah.
Helen:Yeah. I mean, it's kind of sad in one way because your envelopes not being open, but they're definitely not saying no,
Katie:no, and it's worth keeping on doing stuff.
Tania:I just hope people are sending perpetually isn't it? If you've got a stack of postcards or something like that, and you print two or three different images a year and you put those out in a continual cycle, it takes your brain off obsessing why a publisher hasn't replied to you because you actually lose track of how many you've sent. Then everything's due surprised really it's like entering too many lotteries. Don't bother waiting for an answer.
Helen:That's exactly what I used to do. I used to just get postcards made really regularly and send them out in huge amounts. And, and then forget about them and leave it a few weeks and then do it again. Yes. And then you don't care whether you hear back or not. And there's always some kind of contact over the you know, you always get something back.
Tania:Yeah. And if the postcards are there and ready, you don't get that whole, like, Oh, God, I've got to deal with my marketing and writing letters. It's just bung it in an envelope. Do Helens as Helen advised make your envelope the most beautiful envelope in the world. And if he did that every month or so, you're not getting too invested and too obsessed about not hearing back and every you know, everything's in play. At that point. Something's bound to come of it.
Katie:But you anyone anyway.
Tania:Okay, so, do you want to pick one Helen? collectie.
Katie:We're good for Thailand. That 120 minutes? Yeah, we've got five minutes left. So it's really a nice link. Yeah. So she was a buyer.
Tania:Sorry, Ryan. Okay, so that's been a really good set of questions. So bye for now. Yeah.
Helen:Bye for now. We'll see you tomorrow. We've got another one drop in tomorrow. Art Club on Wednesday and art club on Friday on Instagram.
Katie:I will see you inside the picture. But of course if you fancy joining and if you're already in there, you can join this live round as well. be lovely to see you there.
Helen:Got lifetime access. Bye
Tania:bye for now.