Hello, welcome to the Good Ship Illustration podcast. We're here to offer no nonsense advice to illustrators and image makers navigating a creative career. In the good ship, there are three of us and Katie Chappell. And there's Helen Stephens and Tania Willis two, we are celebrating our flagship course find your creative voice file your freak flag being opened this week. So we've got lots of episodes all about finding your creative voice. We've got another juicy question. This one says, Do you think it's worth paying for a critique of a story or dummy book to gauge whether it has publishing potential? I've written and illustrated two picture books, but they need a lot of work. I love your message about learning on the job. And it would be so encouraging to have these as projects to work on with potential.
Helen:This is interesting, isn't it? Because not all critique is equal as it depends who you get that advice from. And my advice really would be just really try and get a foot in the door with publishers really try and get in there and get a meeting with the people who commission you. So are you sending out enough samples? Are you writing notes with those samples saying any chance I could come and see you and show you my folio? Because it's so inspiring to get a meeting with an editor, they will look at those dummies and they'll know exactly how to knock those into shape. There are other places to get credits, but you need to really do your research, don't you to find out who will give the right kind of advice. It's very hard.
Katie:We've heard horror stories of people having a portfolio review, and just being devastated by it. Because it's awful, isn't it, because you're really putting your trust in somebody to look at your work and give you constructive criticism. So you want to make sure somebody has a track record of giving useful feedback,
Helen:you want them to be realistic, but not just kind of stamp on your dreams. Because from years of teaching, I know that sometimes will in fact, I'm thinking of somebody that I was at art school with, I want to Hutan you but you'll probably remember this person. When we first started on the course, this person, I don't even want to say him or her their work was really bad, like really bad mess. And it turned out this person was going through a huge amount of trouble at home, like really bad personal stuff. And once that stuff was over his work, just like blossomed into this incredible work. And he stood out I'm sitting here now I've given away. That's what really stood out in the course. And you think I was so wrong to think there was no potential there? Yeah, because just around the corner, just a life change. A big life change at home, just around the corner was this incredible work. So it's really bad, ended up in a crate with somebody, create that's the wrong word for the review. folio review is somebody and they they stamp on your dreams like that, because they have no idea what you're capable of. And
Tania:equally, because it's quite an unregulated business. You could have people who are just to kind to general say, what what you think, what you want to hear. And what you said about publishers, I think he's better because you're actually talking to the people who will give you very clear feedback. And again, you'd have to match your work to publishers you think have the sensitivity to handle it, because equally knockbacks from publishers can be a little bit demoralizing. But if you spread your cost your net widely enough, including the KT 100 No thank yous competition, which these would definitely count towards that, wouldn't they?
Katie:Oh, absolutely. Yeah,
Tania:you could get a good 30 publishers, if you're a third of the way through the project, and you'd get something for sure, from 30 send out that sounds a bit overwhelming, but it's doable. I used
Helen:to send out big batches of samples that I would get home from work and my job at the science museum, sit at the had to have my dinner, clean the table and sit there with loads of postcards and write 13 of them in one go. And on my way to work the next day, I'd stick them in the post box. And I would do it again and again. And I would approach the same people again and again, but with new samples, because if you don't hear back, if you have no idea why it might be that they love it, and they're stuck your sample on the wall, and but the right project hasn't come along. Next time you send a sample, they might ring you and say yeah, bringing folio. And so just keep sending out the work because of feedback from publisher is really the Holy Grail, isn't it?
Katie:I suppose the publishers feedback. They're invested in you doing the best possible work so that they can sell more books. That totally makes sense. Whereas if you're paying somebody for a portfolio review I don't know they're getting paid regardless. Yeah, so maybe it's a different. Like, you've got to choose that for the paid review person really cares.
Tania:Yeah, exactly. It could be great. And it could be worth it. If you can find someone who you think is totally aligned with your values and your project. Yeah, maybe but I love Hans ballsy approach or just send them another postcard three months later.
Katie:It's alright people are busy
Helen:because they don't want to chuck it in the bin. I don't know I haven't lost anything.
Tania:Exactly what's the worst that could happen? But I used to even found that that follow up thing and you said it to follow up is key but when I was younger, I was way too nervous to follow up on things. And I got bored. It's by post. It's virtual. It's like touch. Yeah, no one's gonna call you up and say, Could you please stop annoying me with these postcards.
Katie:And that's the very worst case scenario. And nobody can be bothered to do that.
Helen:So that's fine. I once had a really horrible critique session once. She didn't slip my work or anything like that. But she spent and it was with quite a famous person. And she, she had tried to get into children's book publishing and not being successful and ended up doing this instead. And she just ranted about all of the bad people in publishing and what they've done wrong to her. And I was there for about an hour and paid for it and left. No way. Yeah, yeah.
Tania:That is, yeah. That's what a career track is like. It's like life's revenge, children's book publishing won't accept me. So I'm just going to devote myself to
Helen:the world of children's book publishing, so you don't want to do it. But would
Tania:you say that a good way to go about it would be to get the writer an artist yearbook from this year and get on editors, website, pages, paces, places where people share new call outs on their editors looking for specifically, young children's stores with this particular content, that being if you could spend the energy that you would convert into cash to pay for a review, but just use it to trawl through. And lastly, we learned so much at the time, but at the same time, reading about what editors are looking for, they
Helen:do good critique sessions as well, if you ask around other illustrators, you'll be able to judge who is actually giving really useful advice, not necessarily publishers, but other people are lucky, there are lots of illustrators who, who will see your folio and charge you a fee. But it's best to ask around and see other people's experience of that,
Katie:definitely. And it might be like we mentioned before, you might not be in a position where you're ready for portfolio critique, because you may be going through something or you just come back to illustration, after a long break or something. Or, you know, you just you know, you've got some potential in your work, and you kind of know what you could be doing anyway. Because in the Find your creative voice course, we spend so much energy on encouraging you to boost your own confidence, your self confidence and belief in your own work, that you can kind of give your own portfolio could critique, because you know, what work you like the best and what work feels best for you to do. So rather than kind of putting your energy out there and given the power to somebody else, you know, like, suck it all back in and be like, This is what I want to do. And this is how it's going. I'm going to do this now, that can feel really powerful. And it's, it's, you know, after
Tania:pay, and this person said that they've been published twice. So they
Helen:know I think she's she says I've written and illustrated two picture books, but they need a lot of work. So I think she's okay, she has two sort of domain books ready to show around? I don't think she's published yet.
Tania:And you would you send those as Dummy books to Dashers. Yeah,
Helen:you can send a dummy. Or you could send thumbnail sketches of the ideas and some samples of the illustration because this person is a writer, illustrator. So samples of your illustrations definitely sounds. What do you think about getting feedback from your family? Oh, God, no, no,
Katie:no, your mom was always gonna think whatever you've done is the best thing ever in entire world. And everybody else, they're just like, oh, yeah, that looks like a horse. And you were drawing a horse amazing, like part of the world? No, they're
Tania:just, they're not professional. They, I mean, even that thing of going, like you said, when we get along, Katie and I went the first time and you were a veteran, you knew that you would see work from all over the world that was completely different. And that there were so many themes and subject matters and depictions that even in British illustration, you think, oh, no, they don't like that. You can't do that. And kids were there. They were all versions of everything in in this place, but certain countries were a bit more progressive. Other places were a bit more traditional and limited. But you do. That's a good way to see the industry and the tolerances of the industry for what you're writing. And even if the manuscript or the story needs the help you said Walker, yeah, other places to help or
Helen:every publisher I've ever worked with really helped me knock the story into shape. So I go along with their kind of wobbly jelly have an idea. And they get their butter patters out and they pat me into shape until I'm on ice until I until the story kind of takes shape. Yeah, it really a publisher is the best person to get advice from and they will you know, they do commission stories that are not quite ready yet and they help you knock them into shape. So they
Tania:can see if you've got the kernel of a perfect idea. Then if the writing is a bit baggy or something I can work on that
Katie:rather that wouldn't need they can
Helen:see the balloons. I think they like they really like to be involved. Yeah.
Katie:Okay, let's sprinkle some nice words about the course in while the doors are open.
Helen:Shall I read out this testimonial here, I really liked this one. If you're hesitating about signing up for this course, just dive in, you will regret it
Katie:be determined. And then the slightly longer one is I'm so happy I found the good ship as it's been a breath of fresh air. It's exactly what I've needed to mix up my creativity and relearn my illustration. The kind of uplifting yet challenging words shared each week have helped me to keep going and sailing on towards discovering my own voice. Thank you. Good ship.
Tania:That's nice. Yeah.
Helen:So the doors to the course are open now. And we have art club on Friday. In fact, the doors closed at art club on Friday.