00:00:10:16 - 00:00:16:16
Speaker 3
I this is this is a podcast about burnout. But Hallam for a moment forgot what we were recording because she's.

00:00:16:21 - 00:00:18:21
Speaker 1
My brain is overloaded.

00:00:18:23 - 00:00:23:21
Speaker 4
Overloaded with all the stuff you have to do. Like negotiate life around a teenager.

00:00:23:23 - 00:00:25:03
Speaker 1
Oh my goodness.

00:00:25:05 - 00:00:38:15
Speaker 2
Full time job. I suppose maybe it's good to define like what is burnout? Because I think there's a cultural thing, isn't there? I know I've spoken to friends in different countries and they've been like a burnt out, but it's a it's actually a medical thing.

00:00:38:19 - 00:00:39:05
Speaker 4
Yeah, like.

00:00:39:05 - 00:00:40:06
Speaker 2
A nervous breakdown.

00:00:40:12 - 00:01:02:12
Speaker 4
My Luce Defries was talking about this, wasn't she? Because she's Dutch and she'd written a newsletter about suffering, burnout. And a lot people misunderstood the word burnout between two descriptions. One is like physically burnout. You cannot get out of bed. You are, oh, whatever your symptoms are, you are done. You are physically done. You can't. Whereas some people interpret burnout as just feeling a bit stress at the holiday.

00:01:02:12 - 00:01:03:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.

00:01:03:15 - 00:01:21:14
Speaker 3
I guess it's a new way that depression was misused. As you know, as a term a few years back. But yeah, it's that kind of wide spectrum of the different levels of utter, utter exhaustion you could feel. Yeah, but it does seem to be very popular amongst illustrators populace around what?

00:01:21:16 - 00:01:26:13
Speaker 4
I don't think we as people, we love burnout. We're all striving for burnout.

00:01:26:15 - 00:01:28:21
Speaker 1
It's it's it's a collage style choice.

00:01:28:23 - 00:01:38:03
Speaker 2
It's an occupational hazard because we love what we do. And then there's always the thing of, you know, you start out not getting much work. And then when people start asking you to work, you say yes to absolutely everything because you're scared it's going to go away.

00:01:38:03 - 00:01:57:24
Speaker 4
And if you get overexcited like I do, emails arrive and I'm like, oh yes, and don't think through how much work this is going to be. And also, sometimes you think a job will just be the answer to everything. Like, this job is so great, it's going to this. These royalty checks have to do this are going to be amazing.

00:01:58:01 - 00:02:03:17
Speaker 4
But you actually can't predict things like that. You cannot predict it. And I've given up trying to predict anything like that now.

00:02:03:23 - 00:02:05:09
Speaker 1
So yes, that's.

00:02:05:09 - 00:02:11:22
Speaker 2
The thing is that once you do this job then yeah, then it'll be quiet after next week. Yes. And that you have been enough.

00:02:11:22 - 00:02:17:09
Speaker 4
You can carry on putting off, putting off, taking a break or slowing down until you just cannot do anymore.

00:02:17:15 - 00:02:44:18
Speaker 3
And chasing your to do list until you believe you're going to beat it into shape. But it looks the same to do list week after week. I think one of the the big things that I realized was, and that was kind of thanks to you, Katie was being busy. Doesn't mean you're doing okay. Being busy and being exhausted and being badly paid and just saying yes to everything so that you're on a treadmill of poorly paid jobs.

00:02:44:20 - 00:03:05:18
Speaker 3
When I came from Hong Kong, the rates were lower there. Strangely, you'd think they would be bigger in advertising agencies. There were some big fees. I don't know, ultimately whether they were bigger than you would get in the UK because there was no real way to compare at that time. We're talking about the 90s, but I think I got used to a set rate that I could live on, but it wasn't that good.

00:03:05:20 - 00:03:28:18
Speaker 3
So when we used to do our coffee mornings and talk about, what are you working on? How's the client, what kind of fear you're getting from that? And we started to compare these things, and you were spending a lot of time looking into kind of female entrepreneurs, money marketing and suddenly you had this whole new take on it and you said, we'll just put your prices up 20% to start with and see how that goes.

00:03:28:20 - 00:03:49:18
Speaker 3
And it was right, because everyone said, oh, okay. They weren't even bothered. They didn't notice it was 20%. And you realize you've been working at a lower rate. And I think this is why a lot of younger illustrators do that. And that's what leads to burnout, isn't it? You think, well, I'm busy, so I must be successful, but I can barely make the rent or I'm not being paid what I feel I ought to be paid.

00:03:49:18 - 00:03:52:08
Speaker 3
And I've got a sense of, you know, self-worth over.

00:03:52:08 - 00:04:13:02
Speaker 2
It is so hard as well, because everybody rewards you for being busy. They reward you for doing things really quickly. It's like society as a whole is like, oh, you're so busy, you must be so important. It's amazing. And, yeah, no, but I think it's like so unless subconscious, you don't even realize it. But if you are really busy and do a lot, you feel better about yourself.

00:04:13:02 - 00:04:19:00
Speaker 2
It's like, yeah, I'm so busy and doing all the work until it's it actually, nobody cares really.

00:04:19:02 - 00:04:37:08
Speaker 3
And what do you think you're fulfilling the, definition of an illustrator because you're illustrating, but you're not looking at the finances because there's not really time to do that. We're not taught how to do it, and we're not really taught the business confidence to treat it like a business and up the prices. You just think, well, I'm being an illustrator.

00:04:37:08 - 00:04:54:07
Speaker 3
And that's without even mentioning sliding in all that time to do Instagram and make reels. And I think that was the cherry on the cake for a lot of illustrators upping their game to deal with what Instagram needed for the self-promotion. And that, I think for a lot of people, are like, I'm done.

00:04:54:09 - 00:05:14:07
Speaker 4
I think you can end up doing a load of stuff that isn't the actual illustrator, and it's so easy to be let down all these other paths of spending half a day answering emails, working out which book festivals are you going to go to? Working out your trains and your hotels, and you can feel in. It can end up feeling really, really busy.

00:05:14:07 - 00:05:35:03
Speaker 4
But a of it is illustration and it's been really useful to, since setting up the Good Ship and taking on a couple of assistance to do the things that and we shouldn't really they're not in our main skill set, so we should pass those jobs on. That has been a revelation for me, because I've realized I can do that in my own work as well.

00:05:35:05 - 00:05:47:20
Speaker 4
Just have an assistant who does some of the stuff I don't. There is an illustration and have an accountant and all of that. It's it's so brilliant because you can actually be an illustrator and draw pictures.

00:05:48:01 - 00:05:53:02
Speaker 3
Can you explain how the, the virtual assistant thing works? A bit for people who might be interested?

00:05:53:07 - 00:05:54:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. Well.

00:05:54:12 - 00:05:59:08
Speaker 4
We well, you use it. You use more than one assistant, don't you? You have a couple.

00:05:59:10 - 00:06:39:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. So? So right now there's three people working with me on the live illustration side of things. And then in good shape, we've got two amazing. Yeah. Members. But the one I started, I got, like, the smallest amount of hours of a virtual assistant, and it was literally replying to inquiries because I was getting a lot, and also the admin bits behind the scenes, like following up with people, people send invoices and then they want to like onboard you as a supplier and you've got to fill in a 12 page form and then you've got to like send them a photocopy of your Bom, like all had a paper.

00:06:39:19 - 00:06:59:23
Speaker 2
Please write this. And I hate that so much. And I would just never do it. So my husband does a lot of it. He also hates it. So it's not ideal, but he does it for me. Sometimes. And then also, yeah, I've got, my assistant who does bits and bobs like that, but yeah, it was that thing I was looking, I think in some books it's called a Q zone of Genius.

00:07:00:03 - 00:07:11:14
Speaker 2
Excellence. What are those things you're really good at? You focus on them, and then as soon as you can afford it or whatever, getting even the tiniest bit of help, it's leverage is you. You go to different gear and you can do the stuff you're really good at.

00:07:11:20 - 00:07:36:16
Speaker 4
It's so easy to find suddenly find you just barely ever illustrated because of all of the emails and that kind of stuff. Yeah. I had an assistant for a while who, I, I was getting her to nudge me to remind me to write a newsletter. And so then I would write the newsletter in a Google doc, and she'd have a look at it, and then she would put it into, I don't know if I was using MailChimp, I don't think I was using Substack.

00:07:36:16 - 00:07:49:14
Speaker 4
Then I was on MailChimp. She put in MailChimp for me, but she'd make it into a blog on my website, and she'd take some stuff out that I could use for Instagram. So that was really handy just to just have somebody to nudge me to remind me to do it.

00:07:49:16 - 00:07:54:19
Speaker 3
And help you do it as well and pick out them, because we've all got this material and content, haven't we?

00:07:54:19 - 00:07:55:21
Speaker 4
So yeah, using.

00:07:55:21 - 00:07:56:17
Speaker 3
It together is a boring.

00:07:56:17 - 00:08:14:02
Speaker 4
Bit. Yeah, I don't mind writing it, but the bit where I needed to use stick it in MailChimp, copy and paste it into my blog, find the pictures again. Like all that admin, finding your pictures in Dropbox, sticking them in, checking the file sizes, write all of that. That was really, really handy to just give that over to someone else.

00:08:14:02 - 00:08:37:19
Speaker 4
But actually I found, I stopped running. I decided to prioritize what work was more important. And so now I really like, being an actual illustrator, drawing pictures, writing stories, and doing good shit. And I was a few years ago, I was also running an online shop and really been on top of it with a newsletter. Posting on Instagram frequently.

00:08:37:24 - 00:08:56:16
Speaker 4
I actually decided to let a lot of that go, so I don't post as much on Instagram anymore because personally, I don't find it as fun as I used to. It's not the place it was. I don't try and write a newsletter and duplicate it into a blog anymore because Substack is come along, you literally write it in Substack, you press send, you've got a blog and a newsletter.

00:08:56:18 - 00:09:05:12
Speaker 4
And we close the shop. So, I actually don't need the assistant anymore. Just got the accountant for doing all of the boring stuff.

00:09:05:14 - 00:09:24:15
Speaker 2
That's one of the really nice things, is realizing what you actually just don't need to be doing at home and stuff and doing that. And that's been a big one for me this year. Like I did the British Library. Get ready to grow your business, get ready for business growth. It's called and I think that, like, following somebody else's idea of what's a really successful business.

00:09:24:15 - 00:09:43:21
Speaker 2
And they were like, oh, it's working now. So scale it like a grow a team. And I'm really glad that I tried it, because I had so much fun and met loads of brilliant people, did lots of cool events. They some days to do like five different events in different places in the world. And the people there, but just realize how much busy work it created and how much stress.

00:09:43:21 - 00:09:54:02
Speaker 2
And then overall for not that much more money in general at the end of the day. And it's not all about money at all. It's more about energy levels, really. Happiness levels.

00:09:54:04 - 00:10:16:01
Speaker 3
But we put lots of this into the business course as well, because I think particularly Katie coming into live illustration and a kind of new sector of illustration and looking at it with a business brain or an entrepreneur's brain, which is not what illustrators do. Traditionally, illustrators have never been taught to consider what they do as a business.

00:10:16:03 - 00:10:36:06
Speaker 3
It's like is the work that you make good or not? Those are the main parameters when you're working. So it was quite a it was mind blowing to think, wow, we are actually were operating as businesses, as a business with all these different tasks where our accountant, where a marketing person, where our new business development, where the content provider, the whole lot.

00:10:36:06 - 00:10:56:18
Speaker 3
No wonder it's exhausting and illustrators are prone to burnout. And if you don't have that business side working, it's so much harder. So Katie talked a lot about automation. How do. And she had Vas from an early stage, which was like, wow, illustrators can pay for someone's time to help and support them. You've got your newsletter working really well.

00:10:56:20 - 00:11:07:08
Speaker 3
All those kind of things that start to contribute to a better paid career are really important, and I think that's got to be one of the ways out of burnout. If that's where you're headed.

00:11:08:08 - 00:11:30:01
Speaker 4
I feel like I was heading for burnout. It was partly to do with I got very excited about working digitally as well. And, started, drawing a lot on procreate, using my iPad a lot. And then I realized I was getting, like, tension. Adama, and one side of my body and my neck and I took me ages to.

00:11:30:01 - 00:11:55:18
Speaker 4
I actually went to doctors a few times, said I can't really saw boob. What? Why is my boobs or what's going on turned out to be illustrators boob people your iPad in one arm for too long until you totally seize up. And all of my muscles on my left hand side were just done. So part of my burnout was actually physical exhaustion from working digitally, and, it would hurt my eyes and I would get migraines.

00:11:55:24 - 00:12:13:09
Speaker 4
And I got very excited by procreate for a long time, and then realized it had taken quite a big toll on my body. And so the next book I did, a whole book on procreate was very excited by it. And then at the end of it, I thought, hang on a minute, I think I'm actually I'm actually injuring myself here.

00:12:13:09 - 00:12:36:24
Speaker 4
I'm going to stop this and was craving paper again. So the next book I got back out in my studio was my paper, my lightbox, my radio on beside me, dog asleep on my feet. And so. Oh yeah, this is this is why I'm an illustrator. Because as a kid, we'd go on holiday in the caravan. My mum put the felt pens on the floor, get my piece of paper out, sit in front of that gas, fire in the caravan with that smell.

00:12:37:03 - 00:13:01:12
Speaker 4
The rain on the top of the caravan and hours would go by in my own world of drawing. And as soon as I got back to paper again, I was like, oh, this feels good in my body. Like this is better for me. And so now I still do love procreate. I think it's really exciting, but I use it more for roughs, note taking, quick sketches of things just I don't use it, I wouldn't illustrated, I use it to illustrate a whole book.

00:13:01:12 - 00:13:04:17
Speaker 4
Again, it's just too physically demanding.

00:13:04:19 - 00:13:13:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. Oh is it so do you think that it was just the excitement of seeing because you get excited about projects and then. Yeah the iPad was fast as well. So it's like you excitement as an iPad.

00:13:13:13 - 00:13:30:21
Speaker 4
Yeah. And I could sit on my bed and illustrate a whole book on my bed. And it just felt like, oh, this is the answer. No, it isn't the answer. I ended up feeling absolutely full of adrenaline. You know, if you spend a whole day too much scrolling, too much time on a device, at the end of the day, I would just feel like that is no good.

00:13:30:21 - 00:13:53:16
Speaker 4
Which is, whereas drawing on paper makes me feel relaxed, it does the opposite. It calms me down, makes me feel good, it feels centered. Whereas I realized drawing on the iPad actually does something different to your brain. It might be handy, easy to pick up, work anywhere. I work quicker, but it takes its toll physically. And I thought I am reaching burnout and I think it was all the screen time.

00:13:53:16 - 00:13:57:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, that makes sense when it comes not naturally meant to.

00:13:57:08 - 00:14:08:11
Speaker 3
Because you could. But you can also constantly check other things while you're doing that. I don't know whether you have if one you're on procreate, do you nip out and have a quick look at what a mate and yeah, something you suddenly one.

00:14:08:12 - 00:14:28:05
Speaker 4
Little pop will come in. You've had an email. Oh, I better look at my emails. Whereas when I'm in my studio I put my, Chris Watson bird sounds on and it's all recorded on Holy Island. You can hear the the boat's masts click and you can hear the birds, the wind and I am off in my own world and hours go by.

00:14:28:05 - 00:14:40:15
Speaker 4
I have no idea if anybody knocked at the door or an email came in. I don't want to know. When you're on your iPad, you're constantly in this intrusion all the time, and I just have a quick look to see if those socks are still in any.

00:14:40:15 - 00:14:42:22
Speaker 1
Clue, and.

00:14:42:22 - 00:14:46:05
Speaker 4
Then you're distracted and you're off and you've got to get back again.

00:14:46:07 - 00:14:51:23
Speaker 2
It's totally the freak flag thing, isn't it? Like getting back to that thing you loved as a child. Caravan joy and magic.

00:14:53:11 - 00:15:19:17
Speaker 3
And and finding the way to get into whatever your zone is like. You remember when we were listening, you told us about Blind Boys podcast, where you talked about creating the zone, which would get the best out of you. And it's also sensory dependent. And I think the temptations of a screen are awful. I've worked like that for years, and when I'm working intensively on the screen, my eyes are just dry and so I can see on my face that my eyes look exhausted.

00:15:19:19 - 00:15:37:10
Speaker 3
And it was only when my son Joe said, oh, you need a gamer's lamp, mum. You know, you just clip it over the top of the screen and it down lights the screen. The difference between looking at your screen at night in a poorly lit room, or having this kind of gamer's lamp over the top of it. I've never heard of that.

00:15:37:12 - 00:15:38:22
Speaker 3
Honestly, it was night and day.

00:15:38:22 - 00:15:39:13
Speaker 4
What is it?

00:15:39:19 - 00:16:05:02
Speaker 3
It's just like a different light settings from blue light to yellow light, whichever one you want. And for some reason, because it it lights, it put lights in. So it puts light in front of the screen. So you've got some really good lighting on in the room and it stops the eye. And when I turn it off, and I think I worked for 20 years like this in the evening looking at the screen, no wonder my eyes were scratchy and dry and exhausted.

00:16:05:02 - 00:16:13:10
Speaker 3
It make, I think, all these little bits and bobs are worth doing. Like good seating, lighting it all properly so you don't get screen. I.

00:16:13:12 - 00:16:14:11
Speaker 1
Wow.

00:16:14:13 - 00:16:15:04
Speaker 3
That worked out.

00:16:15:24 - 00:16:18:12
Speaker 3
What else works for burn out besides saying.

00:16:18:14 - 00:16:37:05
Speaker 4
Walking, walking? I'm so glad we have Peggy, because if I'm really stressed about work, she's constantly putting her paw on. Many going, remember me? Remember me? Are we going out? Yeah, I'll just go and get my bowl. That might remind you, that has been brilliant, having a dog. Because I have no choice. I have to get out for a good long walk in the middle of the day.

00:16:37:07 - 00:16:38:07
Speaker 4
I helps.

00:16:38:09 - 00:16:41:08
Speaker 3
That clears the brain, doesn't it? Do you get good ideas when you're walking?

00:16:41:08 - 00:16:58:03
Speaker 4
Yeah, like, yeah. If I'm on a tricky illustration where I can't get things to sit properly, or for some reason, I can't get this puzzle of this illustration straight, I go for a walk. And often, even if I don't think about it on the walk, when I come back, I can see it more clearly and fix it.

00:16:58:05 - 00:16:59:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, I.

00:16:59:08 - 00:17:05:16
Speaker 4
Love a walk in the middle of the day. Also, exercise on a morning exercise before I even do anything. That's good.

00:17:05:18 - 00:17:07:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.

00:17:07:05 - 00:17:09:09
Speaker 3
What do you use for burnout, Katie.

00:17:09:11 - 00:17:09:13
Speaker 1
I.

00:17:09:13 - 00:17:10:13
Speaker 2
Was thinking, so like, I.

00:17:10:13 - 00:17:11:06
Speaker 1
Had avoid.

00:17:11:09 - 00:17:11:14
Speaker 3
It.

00:17:11:14 - 00:17:18:14
Speaker 2
I think it's sometimes really hard to know what's happening because you're in that treadmill. I think I've just, like, do it, do it, do it. But everyone's like, oh, we did so well.

00:17:18:14 - 00:17:20:17
Speaker 1
Like I have it, so it's fine.

00:17:20:19 - 00:17:36:22
Speaker 2
So I had a business coaching session in the summer. I think it was like July or something. And it was with a mentor that I've worked with before, but it was quite an expensive session. So I was like, you know, I'm going to get a lot out of this. And it was about, you know, uplevel it getting to the next level.

00:17:36:22 - 00:17:43:21
Speaker 2
But it turned out in this session she was like, it sounds like you don't want to do any like, you don't want to build it bigger.

00:17:43:21 - 00:17:45:17
Speaker 1
I was like, oh, you're right, I do it.

00:17:45:19 - 00:17:52:19
Speaker 2
And it was just actually so powerful and so good to have somebody almost like, hold up a mirror and be like, this is what I'm hearing. And I was like, oh.

00:17:52:21 - 00:17:53:17
Speaker 4
The power of.

00:17:53:17 - 00:17:55:15
Speaker 2
Therapy was it was like therapy.

00:17:55:18 - 00:18:18:08
Speaker 4
I recently had some therapy sessions, and basically she just calmed me down about things that were actually not worrying at all. And, you know, I've had the same therapist for years and years and years. I've been having psychotherapy for like 20 years. I don't know, like intense at first, for the first nearly ten years and then at top ups when I need them now.

00:18:18:14 - 00:18:39:16
Speaker 4
Anyway, on the last session, I've known this therapist for years and years and years. Now she knows me inside out and she said, Helen, I don't want to hear you again until you sort out that adrenaline, because the adrenaline was making me think I had problems that were not problems and just a bit of exercise every day. Take the dog out, a bit of meditation, she said.

00:18:39:16 - 00:18:43:09
Speaker 4
I don't want to hear from you to the this of that adrenaline. I was like, yes, thank you, thank you.

00:18:43:10 - 00:18:46:06
Speaker 2
Can I have a human body, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

00:18:46:08 - 00:19:05:10
Speaker 3
Especially as you get older as well. It's much harder, I think, as you. Well for women particularly, as well as when you approach menopause and you're more aware that you're aging and you can't do as much, you can't work like you did when you were 30 and 40. I mean, I would never consider an all nighter now, but I did plenty of them in my 20s and 30s.

00:19:05:12 - 00:19:23:17
Speaker 3
But that would just be way too exhausting. Yeah. You've just got to moderate how much you can take on and learn to schedule how long things take, because I think you get to a certain age and you know how long your drawings take, like a one day editorial you can gauge. Or I guess you must know from books how long the books are going to take.

00:19:23:17 - 00:19:26:14
Speaker 3
You sort of.

00:19:26:16 - 00:19:48:03
Speaker 4
Yeah. Sort of. Yeah. Do you know what? That's an impossible question. I just know that I've just got to ride with it however long it takes. And usually publishers are pretty good about that. I was going to say, yeah, as you get older, you get more responsibilities of other people as well. Your parents and you grown up children and your dog who's getting old and a bit ill, and you get more and more other things to take care of.

00:19:48:03 - 00:19:50:12
Speaker 4
So you've got to be realistic about your time.

00:19:50:14 - 00:20:09:11
Speaker 3
I think that's why we talk a lot about, scheduling on the business course and just starting to write down schedules with whoever you're working with. So you take control instead of go, okay, I'm in the saddle now. I don't know how long they're going to need me, how many revisions we'll need. I wonder what the deadline on this project will really be.

00:20:09:13 - 00:20:28:00
Speaker 3
And, you know, after a while, those projects can just go on and on, and that's mission creep, and it crashes into other projects, and that's where the stress really happens. But if you learn to schedule it and give that to clients, you feel a much greater sense of control. And you also understand the work's done. I said I would give it two days, I could carry on.

00:20:28:00 - 00:20:37:16
Speaker 3
I could give it eight more days. Would it actually be any better? You work with what you've got and how long you've got, and you take control of the timing of it. That really helps.

00:20:37:18 - 00:20:42:11
Speaker 2
But there's been times when you've been burnt out and, like, had to stop and have a break or.

00:20:42:13 - 00:21:01:14
Speaker 3
Yeah, definitely. I, I'm trying to think I think I went completely doolally at one point to the I couldn't get out of bed stage and, and I couldn't answer the phone to clients. I can't remember what triggered it, but it probably was just too much work. And it felt really horrible. I just thought, I don't think I can do this anymore.

00:21:01:14 - 00:21:25:11
Speaker 3
I actually cannot do it. I don't know if I can even draw anymore. I lost all my confidence. I think that was probably the children were really young, and it might have been some post-natal depression in there and taking on too much work. And combined with friends leaving Hong Kong, I think one of the problems of living abroad is you make really good friends who become your family, and people inevitably leave because it's not their home.

00:21:25:13 - 00:21:48:11
Speaker 3
And it was just it sounds mad to say, but I was so sad to say goodbye to my friends. We can rob because we parented together. I think all of it just combined into one. And I also had a client had really screwed me over, and I think I suddenly realized how easy it was to to work really hard for someone for a whole year and then for them to walk away.

00:21:48:11 - 00:22:03:11
Speaker 3
I was paid, but I was given no access to the work, so I couldn't use it to market what I was doing. And I'd been so excited. I was like, once this gets on my website, I'm going to get loads of jobs. And they were like, no, you can't actually have any of the photos, just silly things like that.

00:22:03:11 - 00:22:25:20
Speaker 3
And I think if it all combines into one perfect storm, you suddenly feel you just can't juggle it anymore. Yeah. So yeah, that took a while to recover. I, I went home to the UK in the summer and Graeme and Karen flew with me with the kids, and when we got there, he had to come back after two weeks, but I could stay and I realized I had literally got a phobia.

00:22:25:20 - 00:22:45:05
Speaker 3
I couldn't fly back with the children. I've never had a phobia about flying, but that's how the burnout translated. I said to my mum, we live with you now. I can't go back home anymore because I can't get on the flight with the children. It's just too much to take two toddlers on a 14 hour flight. And I remember now I was also teaching at the same time.

00:22:45:05 - 00:23:01:05
Speaker 3
Both kids were really small as teaching part time and illustrating, and it took my mum to say to me, do you really need to do all of this? I was like, yeah, that's what we're supposed to do. I meant to teach. I never meant to be an illustrator and a mum. And she was like, I think you need to drop one of those.

00:23:01:05 - 00:23:17:13
Speaker 3
Just choose the one that you least like. Suddenly it was teaching because, you know, obviously as an illustrator, you want to do your core activity and that's when things did get better. And I had to do lots of swimming and lots of yoga and, trying to relax. And yeah, I got over it. Yeah.

00:23:17:13 - 00:23:20:03
Speaker 2
I think that's the thing is that sometimes you just have to stop.

00:23:21:08 - 00:23:37:06
Speaker 4
Because I think it's good to prioritize, make a list which is the one that makes you feel best. Which one is paying the bills. Which one could I drop out of all of this. Yeah I've had to do that. Yeah I think that's a career long thing isn't it. Reevaluating which bit of this is enjoyable. I still draw in every day.

00:23:37:08 - 00:23:39:23
Speaker 1
Know what what.

00:23:40:00 - 00:23:54:07
Speaker 3
And also putting your prices up. I'm looking at it like a business. What can you automate? What can you outsource to someone to help you? And not work so hard and recognize the signs when they're incoming and tight and take action?

00:23:54:07 - 00:23:57:17
Speaker 2
Definitely. Like you get to know your own red flags, don't you.

00:23:57:19 - 00:23:58:19
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:23:58:21 - 00:24:03:02
Speaker 2
I think it would be like when I was looking at those dress balls and the ball, I was like, oh no.

00:24:03:04 - 00:24:05:06
Speaker 3
Is it like a big fat ironic joke.

00:24:05:07 - 00:24:09:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. It was just like oh what, what like stuff like, what are you doing.

00:24:09:18 - 00:24:11:14
Speaker 1
Why have you printed stress balls.

00:24:11:14 - 00:24:16:15
Speaker 4
Yeah. Printed stress balls. And I bet they were talking about the environment and how eco conscious they are.

00:24:16:15 - 00:24:23:09
Speaker 2
And just like, just made a big ball, a landfill and was like, there's probably bin bags of them behind the scene somewhere.

00:24:23:11 - 00:24:25:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, wake up call.

00:24:25:11 - 00:24:37:14
Speaker 3
Just. Yeah. You've got to listen to yourself, have an energy. You need to know when you're feeling like you can't cope because it can knock you out for a while. A lot of illustrators have talked about everything, like Emma Carlisle.

00:24:37:16 - 00:24:50:19
Speaker 4
Murray. Sorry. Malus to freeze. Yeah. Sign up for her newsletter because she's she's still going through it and she's tackling it, isn't she? Every newsletter we hear. What stage? Yeah, she's out with it. She's suffered very badly with it.

00:24:50:21 - 00:24:51:05
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:24:51:05 - 00:25:10:09
Speaker 3
And it's a kind of work ethic thing as well. I think certain people have a very ingrained work ethic, which is like it doesn't matter if you're crying yourself to sleep. Keep working. This is what you wanted. Yeah, show must go on and all of that and ignoring it or ignoring how you feel about it. And she's been amazingly frank and open.

00:25:10:09 - 00:25:12:20
Speaker 3
Yeah, about tackling those feelings.

00:25:12:22 - 00:25:22:11
Speaker 4
I love her newsletters. They're brilliant. They're packed with information as well, not just about burnout, but about business and charging enough and all of that. Yeah, I recommend it.

00:25:22:11 - 00:25:29:14
Speaker 3
I'm speaking to Molly's next week on copyright for the business course, and she's going to be such a winner on that as well.

00:25:29:14 - 00:25:31:06
Speaker 2
You've got some juicy questions about it.

00:25:31:09 - 00:25:32:00
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:25:32:02 - 00:25:34:18
Speaker 2
Definitely the nitty gritty stuff.

00:25:34:20 - 00:25:54:06
Speaker 3
Is just tooling yourself up really, isn't it? You can't wander into illustration and think, I draw. Well, I like to work for people. It's kind of not enough. You have to protect yourself as much as possible to make it a functional business that you can do, at least for, you know, if you're in it for the long haul, you've got to learn as much as you can.

00:25:55:01 - 00:26:12:20
Speaker 2
Yeah I like learning about you and energy levels as well as really important because I don't know. I've talked about human design a little bit a it's like a little bit woowoo. So when I found out on the human design thing, that was a projector that the thing for projectors is they have to wait to be invited to do stuff, and that makes total sense.

00:26:12:20 - 00:26:33:17
Speaker 2
I was like, oh, God, because who was YouTube invited me to do the good for another that that's when like things got really exciting. And then also the other thing is projectors are good at like zooming out and helping other people to direct the energy. But the projector shouldn't always be doing all the work themselves. And I think the world does not really encourage that sort of behavior.

00:26:33:18 - 00:26:48:22
Speaker 2
It's like, no, you just get over it, get it done, like do it fast. So I think are learning about that and learning that I can, like, help other people do things more efficiently. And I can see how things could be more efficient. But I don't necessarily have to be the one doing the work. That's been really interesting.

00:26:48:22 - 00:27:10:21
Speaker 3
That's that's very much the teacher role, isn't it? I mean, I sometimes I worry, I think, illustrating enough every day, but I know a project will come along and then it will be deep immersion for six months as maps usually are. But I really enjoy teaching what I've learned. But there is a certain amount of guilt. You think I should be doing what I'm talking about every single day, but you actually can't.

00:27:10:21 - 00:27:11:20
Speaker 3
It's unsustainable.

00:27:11:20 - 00:27:27:22
Speaker 4
I think it's sustainable. I think of it as particularly if you work in intense periods like you do on your big projects sometimes, and I do with a picture book. It's very intense for a period of time, and then you don't feel like doing it again for a little while, and you do need to take a break.

00:27:27:22 - 00:27:37:14
Speaker 4
You can't even draw in every day. It doesn't seem possible when you've just finished a book. And I think that's that's reasonable. And you need to recharge your batteries and come back when you feel inspired again.

00:27:37:18 - 00:27:43:06
Speaker 2
I think natural cycles, isn't it? Yeah. It'll be like hammering out loads of work all the time. Yeah. Or if you are, you might burn out.

00:27:43:12 - 00:27:43:22
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:27:43:22 - 00:27:44:23
Speaker 2
So it's good to have your rest.

00:27:45:04 - 00:27:46:01
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:27:46:03 - 00:27:48:21
Speaker 3
Take all the shirts out of your life. That's probably the best.

00:27:48:21 - 00:27:49:20
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:27:49:22 - 00:27:50:21
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:27:50:23 - 00:27:55:13
Speaker 4
Yeah. That was one of the great things when I started therapy. I'd never thought about that before, but she kept saying, you keep saying.

00:27:55:13 - 00:27:57:20
Speaker 1
Should I go? She stop.

00:27:57:20 - 00:27:58:24
Speaker 4
Censured.

00:27:59:01 - 00:28:07:15
Speaker 2
Story book that I really want to read. I haven't read it yet, but it's called The Courage to Be Disliked. And I think that's going to be interesting. Even the title, I was like, oh,

00:28:07:17 - 00:28:11:23
Speaker 3
Imagine couple that with you are not a to do list and you're probably on your way.

00:28:11:23 - 00:28:13:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, maybe don't need to read the book.

00:28:13:17 - 00:28:14:14
Speaker 1
Just go. Yeah, yeah, I'm.

00:28:14:14 - 00:28:15:01
Speaker 2
Excited about.

00:28:15:01 - 00:28:27:03
Speaker 4
The title. Yeah, just read the title. That's it. The rest is probably filler. To be fair, a lot of those self-help books, they'll have a really good message, but they've had to stretch it out into a book. And so they just keep saying the same thing again and again.

00:28:27:03 - 00:28:27:12
Speaker 1
Again.

00:28:27:14 - 00:28:30:04
Speaker 3
How do you think, oh, I got that one chapter. Well, where are we going now?

00:28:30:04 - 00:28:33:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, I'll bring it back.

00:28:33:12 - 00:28:34:18
Speaker 3
So I think we're done only.

00:28:34:19 - 00:28:35:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant.

00:28:35:20 - 00:28:40:09
Speaker 3
Hope it's been useful to you. Yeah. If you're feeling a little bit stressed. Yeah, yeah.

00:28:40:11 - 00:28:42:07
Speaker 4
Look, after yourself. Yeah.

00:28:42:09 - 00:28:46:04
Speaker 1
Bye bye.