00:00:00:00 - 00:00:16:23
Speaker 2
do we used to be up in the olden days, pretty everything. We would go at the cafe and the first thing we'd always say was like, what you working on? We thought how? Well, firstly, Tanya has rocked up into this podcast recording session with a page of notes. So I am so curious. What are you working on?

00:00:16:23 - 00:00:19:07
Speaker 2
What have you been writing down that you've been working on? Tanya?

00:00:19:09 - 00:00:39:06
Speaker 3
Well, I was so worried that I wasn't working on anything clear, so I thought I'd better write it down. And when I've written it down, I thought, this is a clear strategy for life. No. I just thought I wanted to for the last two years, I wanted to do a map for myself, which didn't have a client and didn't have an art director to see what the outcome would be.

00:00:39:08 - 00:00:54:19
Speaker 3
But as it usually goes, this went to the bottom of the list over and over again. Even if I tried to kind of amateur attempt at journaling, my personal map kept going to the bottom of the list. I worked all the business stuff out about it and how I would sell it. It's going to be an art print.

00:00:54:21 - 00:01:15:03
Speaker 3
But it didn't actually do the work. So in order to kind of get my head straight, I decided I would apply for a residency. But I'd never thought about these things before till I saw, Harriet Lee Marion, the illustrator. She did a blog post about doing residencies, and I was like, wow, to illustrators get residencies. I thought it was only fine artists.

00:01:15:05 - 00:01:36:21
Speaker 3
And I thought, the only way I'm going to concentrate on something like this is to get a residency. So I looked through all this stuff on there's a really good website called Rez Artists without a T at the end, Rez artist.org, and you can sign up to their newsletter, I think, for free, and it will send you a list of residencies around the world, of all different types.

00:01:36:21 - 00:01:53:05
Speaker 3
And some of them are, you know, you have to go there, you get free accommodation, but you have to work to the theme set by the art center or whatever. Other ones, you can pay for a bit or it's subsidized, and then there's really kind of gloomy ones where you pay a fortune just to hang out with other artists.

00:01:53:06 - 00:02:18:17
Speaker 3
But once you get this worked out, which ones you want to do and where you want to go, you can kind of narrow it down. So I was thinking about doing that. And at the same time, one of the local Barrett groups, sorry, this is a long way around giving you all the background. One of the arts groups got funding, for people to go and get mentorship from this amazing lady called Carrie Hand.

00:02:18:19 - 00:02:41:13
Speaker 3
That's Carrie with a C, Carrie Handscomb, and she's a really incredible coach and mentor for mostly for fine artists. But she had a really mixed bunch with us. So we're kind of crafts people architects, designers, illustrators. And she made it work for all of us. The general principles about kind of setting goals and what you want to do with your career and prioritizing your own work.

00:02:41:15 - 00:02:52:13
Speaker 3
So these two things combined really help me think, yeah, I'm going to go for a residency and take this seriously and call it a piece of work. I am doing a piece of work like fine artists do.

00:02:52:15 - 00:02:58:00
Speaker 2
So you don't want to you a booked on a residency because I know you did your Spanish one.

00:02:58:02 - 00:03:22:13
Speaker 3
Well, yeah. So first I booked, I applied for a couple of residencies and just got in the groove of how to apply for them and leaving like chunks of text. So you could just copy and paste that same text into different applications. You had different residency applications. So I got a residency in France for March, to my great surprise, a really nice place, just really lovely, and I'm so excited about it.

00:03:22:15 - 00:03:42:00
Speaker 3
But that was back in early spring and I wanted to get on with the work, especially at the end of winter. I was like, just let me out of Britain. So I thought, I'll make my own. Which is the other thing you can do if you don't feel like applying for them, just do a DIY residency. And a friend of mine who'd always said, you can stay in a little house in Spain.

00:03:42:02 - 00:04:11:15
Speaker 3
I was really grateful to them because they said, yeah, go and do a month there. So I spent a month in Spain actually starting this so-called piece of work, and I got halfway through it. And now it's still waiting for me to complete it. So that is the ongoing project. But I also start got a new studio, which is another psychological hack to make me do this work, and it's the first time I've ever had a studio outside of my home, probably for 30 years.

00:04:11:15 - 00:04:13:13
Speaker 3
So it feels momentous.

00:04:13:15 - 00:04:14:18
Speaker 2
But it's exciting.

00:04:14:20 - 00:04:32:01
Speaker 3
And it's not just to do the psychological thing of this is serious. I'm working on this and I'm sharing it with my daughter so we can afford it. Because it's a it's a proper workspace, not a studio, which is a bit unfair. So if there's anyone out there who wants to invest in our property and barrack to set up studios, please come.

00:04:32:01 - 00:04:47:20
Speaker 3
There's loads of property and loads of artists. But, I'm going to take my old computer that doesn't have much on it and only take all the work on the books related to this map project, so there's nothing else to distract and hopefully that's going to happen. So we move in today.

00:04:47:22 - 00:04:49:22
Speaker 1
I very today's your moving day. Yeah.

00:04:49:23 - 00:05:07:11
Speaker 3
Oh it's the first day in the studio. Evie's already there. The desks are put up. So I'm really hoping this will do the thing for me. Get my mindset into being a bit more instead of doing everything all the time. At the same time, just try to get a sense of focus.

00:05:07:13 - 00:05:08:15
Speaker 2
Single tasking.

00:05:08:20 - 00:05:15:11
Speaker 4
Yeah, you've been missing doing your self motivated work, haven't you? So this is the is this the start of that.

00:05:15:13 - 00:05:40:04
Speaker 3
Yeah, I guess I'll there's two things because on one hand I wanted this to be the self-motivated work, but it's still a commercial project. So it's not just it's not going drawing, which is what I want to do is without aim, without anything, just to draw. So if I can divide my life into two, that would be the perfect outcome and not get distracted by doing the laundry, which is is the main threat to my work.

00:05:40:05 - 00:05:53:04
Speaker 2
That is the hardest thing about working at home because I go through phases. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm at the studio every day and then I'm like, oh, I wish I was just working from home. But that's the thing. You're at home and like, I'll just pop a wash on. Oh, I'll just. Yeah, I think I'll make a little soup while I'm working.

00:05:53:04 - 00:05:57:02
Speaker 2
And then it's, I got loads of nice healthy things done. No work at all.

00:05:57:05 - 00:05:58:07
Speaker 4
I love working at home.

00:05:59:22 - 00:06:28:14
Speaker 4
If a studio opened up round the corner from my house and it took me three minutes to walk there, I would have a studio. But if I have to walk any more than ten minutes, that's it. I, I really, really like working at home. I really like that. All my stuff is always there. So, I work in my little outside studio all day, and then I might fancy in the evening after dinner, doing half an hour more and I can just nip back out, or I can bring it in and put on the kitchen table while I'm chatting to pie, while she's making a dinner.

00:06:28:14 - 00:06:43:14
Speaker 4
Or, you know, I like that you can pick it up and put it down whenever you like. And I know if I have a studio, the work will be there and I won't be able to get it in the evening if I just fancy sitting on the bed messing about with it. So yeah, I like I really like being at home.

00:06:43:16 - 00:06:58:20
Speaker 3
Can you do both though? I mean, you could. I'm thinking if I can sort of send myself copies of the work back home, if I want to finish it at home, I can work in a space during the day, and if I want to pick up where I was at, I could do it in the evening.

00:06:58:22 - 00:07:11:21
Speaker 4
I think this is why I would have a studio. You know, there was talk of a studio opening up around the corner from my house. If that happened, I would definitely have a studio because if I forgot stuff, I could just walk around the corner and get it and bring it home.

00:07:11:23 - 00:07:13:02
Speaker 3
Yeah. Oh, that's.

00:07:13:04 - 00:07:25:15
Speaker 4
All depend on the evening and a half an hour by myself in the studio. But I really don't fancy the journey of, of it being more official than just either wandering around the corner or wandering out in the garden to my studio.

00:07:25:20 - 00:07:34:05
Speaker 3
I have to say, at this point, people are always trying to lure Helen abroad for book conferences and talking to schools we like. Oh well, you could go to Chile, but.

00:07:34:10 - 00:07:36:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, if I could be transported.

00:07:36:01 - 00:07:57:16
Speaker 4
There without all the journey, if I could just be there with the children, with none of the other stuff, I'm just in the room. We're having a great time together without the journey, the prep, the, admin. I would be there. Yeah, if I could have some sort of magic wand to just, like, take me in the middle of a classroom anywhere in the world.

00:07:57:16 - 00:08:00:23
Speaker 4
I would do that. But all the stuff involved around it.

00:08:01:01 - 00:08:03:16
Speaker 3
So anyone who wants to book A has to physically.

00:08:03:17 - 00:08:04:04
Speaker 1
Magic.

00:08:04:04 - 00:08:05:17
Speaker 3
Dematerialize.

00:08:05:19 - 00:08:13:10
Speaker 2
That's how I feel about the live events. If you could teleport me. So I was boop in the room. Yeah, I then at home again or back in my studio. Totally fine. But it is the travel.

00:08:13:10 - 00:08:14:05
Speaker 4
The traveling.

00:08:14:05 - 00:08:14:22
Speaker 2
So tiring.

00:08:14:22 - 00:08:30:02
Speaker 4
Yeah, I did it for years and years. Loads of school visits. I love the school visits. I love being in the room with the children, particularly if it's a class with a really great teacher who is really involved in they love the teacher and you can see all that and we, we end up having like really nice playtime together.

00:08:30:02 - 00:08:45:21
Speaker 4
That's brilliant. But the the journey on the train and the changes and the, the travel lodge or wherever grim place you stay that night and then when you leave this, you like, you've had a great day with all the kids, and then it's time to go home. And everybody forgets that you were there. And you just wander out the school.

00:08:45:21 - 00:08:47:23
Speaker 4
Nobody says goodbye and you're like.

00:08:48:01 - 00:08:51:01
Speaker 1
Oh, right, okay. Yeah. I just can't be.

00:08:51:01 - 00:08:56:02
Speaker 4
Bothered with that. I yeah, I'll do it sometimes, but not very often.

00:08:56:03 - 00:08:59:11
Speaker 3
When you got the studio. Katie. Katie not. I'll be on the same building.

00:08:59:15 - 00:09:00:07
Speaker 1
The studio.

00:09:00:09 - 00:09:01:06
Speaker 2
Is upstairs.

00:09:01:06 - 00:09:04:21
Speaker 3
Never did it make the difference. You want it when you.

00:09:04:23 - 00:09:20:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. So it was in lockdown. So I live in a tiny cottage, ancient cottage, which is very cute and lovely. And we used to have. The upstairs room was my studio. And then in lockdown, my husband Karen was also working from home and it became a bit of a like. We shared a.

00:09:20:14 - 00:09:23:07
Speaker 1
Studio is so bad.

00:09:23:09 - 00:09:36:00
Speaker 2
So but I love them very much. But it was terrible and I bought him some noise canceling headphones, which helped. But then I got to a point. I was like, I cannot be in the same room as you because he'd be like, look at this, this is cool. And he's very chatty. And I'm like, if you disturb me one more time, I'm moving out.

00:09:36:00 - 00:09:53:05
Speaker 2
So I got a studio, and at that point it was so good because it also firstly, I could decorate it however I wanted. I mean, I could do it at home, but like, our house doesn't lend itself well to being super colorful and modern. It's not that sort of house. So yeah, my studio is super, super bright and funky and exciting and so I've got all my favorite things in it, and I have the heater on full blast.

00:09:53:05 - 00:10:13:16
Speaker 2
When I'm in there, I have my noise canceling headphones on with my music or podcasts and it's like 24 seven access. Not that I go there 24 seven. But yeah, it was just so good to have a place to go to work and be at work and then come home and be at home, because then when we couldn't leave the house, I feel like we just got I go on about lockdown all the time.

00:10:13:16 - 00:10:13:23
Speaker 2
I'm sorry.

00:10:14:02 - 00:10:14:23
Speaker 1
But like.

00:10:15:01 - 00:10:30:14
Speaker 2
When I was working and living in the same place it did, just blessedly my whole life was an online event and I was like hating it so much at that point. So then go into the studio doing a job, coming home, be at home. Yeah, that really helped. And it helps now, like if I've got deadlines, I just leave the house at all.

00:10:30:15 - 00:10:36:09
Speaker 2
Mess, go to the studio, get the work done, come home and carry on ignoring the mess.

00:10:36:11 - 00:10:44:17
Speaker 3
Good. Yeah, that's what I want it to do for me. Right. So what are you two working on? So, Helen, you go first. What are you doing?

00:10:44:19 - 00:11:12:10
Speaker 4
Well. Well, I I'm a bit quieter than I used to be, which is really nice. I've consciously decided to take on less work because, you mentioned lockdown again. Pre-lockdown, I felt like I was on a conveyor belt. Work work work work. One book, next book, next book, other books going on the go in the background at the same time, while I was doing another one, offers at work had come in illustrating other people's texts and that, basically my excitement about projects got the better of me.

00:11:12:10 - 00:11:29:16
Speaker 4
So I would be like, that's exciting. Yes, without thinking about it. And then I decided that I would actually whenever a new an offer came in, no matter how exciting I would look at it, give it a few days, sleep on it, and then decide even if it's exciting. Do I have time for this? Do I want to do it?

00:11:29:16 - 00:11:56:17
Speaker 4
Because the adrenaline in my body from constantly being excited by projects and then realizing the reality and the amount of work involved with it, I don't think I hit burnout, but I was head in that way. So yeah, I consciously decided to take on less work. Also, it was really great when we designed, find your creative voice cos because in there we talk about your work being a mixture of two things.

00:11:56:17 - 00:12:15:23
Speaker 4
So it's like how you hold your pen, what materials you use, how you like to put the work on the paper. There's all that visual stuff, but there's also the contents of your brain, like what makes you you what do you want to work about? How is your work going to be connected to you as a person? All of that stuff.

00:12:16:01 - 00:12:41:01
Speaker 4
And this was a really, really good reminder to me that I should only do the projects that have those two things really integral to them. So I only want to do books that feel very, very exciting and connected to my life in some way, or inspired by something real that makes me feel something. So yeah. I'm just I just got off that conveyor belt and that's been really, really nice.

00:12:41:02 - 00:13:00:03
Speaker 4
I'm only working on one book at the moment, and that, books Katie and I are working on, we're writing together, aren't we? And we've written eight stories. Walker of commissioned as we've written it, stories. And now I'm doing rough drawings for the first set of stories, and it's very exciting. It's very, very kind of close to our hearts.

00:13:00:03 - 00:13:25:10
Speaker 4
It feels like it's kind of about us and where we live. These characters live in an upturned boat with there are these upturned boat sheds around where we live in Northumberland. There's a character in it called Kitty, who we've based on. Tanya. It's based on Tanya's kind of reckless enjoyment of life. And some of this, I mean, Tanya sounds when you listen to the podcast like she's the radio for voice of the Good Ship.

00:13:25:12 - 00:13:26:19
Speaker 1
But the reality.

00:13:26:19 - 00:13:30:22
Speaker 4
Of Tanya's life, Tanya is proper. How can I describe it?

00:13:31:00 - 00:13:34:16
Speaker 1
I'm looking forward to it as I just grew up. But like.

00:13:34:16 - 00:13:37:23
Speaker 4
Tanya is a punk at heart and you don't hear that.

00:13:37:23 - 00:13:40:05
Speaker 1
Through Tanya's voice.

00:13:40:07 - 00:13:48:21
Speaker 4
And you have to tell us about the time that you were on the boat. Why were you on the boat? Where you decided it'd be a good idea to jump in the river from the boat? Why would the world was.

00:13:48:21 - 00:14:00:21
Speaker 3
In India, India and Kerala? I'd do this trip with Graham and, this boat shut off down the river. So I would just dive in. I'm not really very good at swimming. So that first of all.

00:14:00:21 - 00:14:02:17
Speaker 1
It was not my idea.

00:14:02:18 - 00:14:23:14
Speaker 3
And I'd also got flu, but I'd forgotten about that. And this flu involved having, uncontrollable coughing fit. So when I came up from the depths of this river, suddenly the boat was really small and it had shot off. They had said, jump in, but I didn't realize they keep running the engine, and that's how I've got I can't swim, I'm going to have to paddle to try and get back up to the boat.

00:14:23:17 - 00:14:41:05
Speaker 3
Then I got caught with a fit of coughing and nearly drowned. And then a guy oh yes, that was a bit where I needed to shout help because I actually genuinely thought I was going to drown, but I couldn't say the word help. So I started waving my arm in the air. A Swedish guy near me in the river shouting, excuse me.

00:14:41:07 - 00:14:50:05
Speaker 1
I know that's come, excuse me, I'm going to die. Sorry to. I just couldn't show help.

00:14:50:05 - 00:14:51:11
Speaker 3
It was really weird.

00:14:51:11 - 00:14:52:20
Speaker 2
Was it too embarrassing to shout help?

00:14:52:21 - 00:15:16:03
Speaker 3
I think it was. I just couldn't get it out of my mouth. Anyway, he shot over, grabbed me around the neck in a rescue position, but was throttling me. So I started trying to hit him to get out of out of the hold because I couldn't breathe and was still coughing. Then we got to the boat with this great sort of struggle swim, and I climbed onto the boat through the engine room and my bikini top was pulled down on the crawl up into the boat.

00:15:16:07 - 00:15:24:02
Speaker 3
So I walked into the engine room, bedraggled, terrified and exhausted with my boobs out in front of about five guys in the engine room of the boat.

00:15:24:04 - 00:15:25:20
Speaker 1
It was just so funny.

00:15:25:20 - 00:15:50:02
Speaker 4
It's stories like this that we were trying. It's really useful when you're writing a story to try and base it on people that you know, or famous people, or just to give somebody a character. It's really handy. And, we wrote our first draft, didn't we? And we gave it to Walker. And Walker were like, can we have a bit more definition of what the actual characters, what the character traits of these characters are?

00:15:50:04 - 00:15:52:04
Speaker 4
And so we started thinking about that, didn't we?

00:15:52:04 - 00:15:54:16
Speaker 2
But a good session on the train, we really did.

00:15:54:16 - 00:16:04:20
Speaker 4
And we were like, well, Kitty mock, or do you know what? She's got to be Tanya's reckless side. Like just such an enthusiasm for life that she gets herself into all sorts of trouble with.

00:16:04:20 - 00:16:06:12
Speaker 1
I mean.

00:16:06:14 - 00:16:07:19
Speaker 2
She's like, yeah, let's do it with.

00:16:07:19 - 00:16:14:05
Speaker 1
A bit of time. Die. Try not even seen. Oh, keep me see, I.

00:16:14:07 - 00:16:30:18
Speaker 4
Will send you. So funny. Anyway, so we've had a really nice time doing that. And it and it feels like it does everything we talk about in Freak Flag. It's kind of a personal to us, even though it's a dog and a duck and a cat. It feels like our lives, they've got a little stove. A salty dog is an artist.

00:16:30:18 - 00:16:35:14
Speaker 4
Disney and he we kind of base him on Johnny Hannah a little bit, don't we?

00:16:35:14 - 00:16:48:08
Speaker 2
He's got major Johnny Hannah vibes, which has been tricky because Johnny Hannah's very calm, collected. It wouldn't be like bossy I don't think ever. Yeah. So they were a bit like we need to get Salty's personality more. But that's just kind of is his personality that he's quite like.

00:16:48:11 - 00:17:10:14
Speaker 4
Yeah, cool. We had we injected a lot more art and sculpture and still lives and stuff into his character. And that's made him really interesting though, because you don't I can't I other than Penghu, which has the dad in Pingo is a sculptor who smokes a pipe and knits. He is just such a great character. I think Salty's got a bit of his vibe as me.

00:17:10:16 - 00:17:20:06
Speaker 2
And I didn't want salty to be like, you know, like traditional main character, like, I'll save the day, you know, like the Paw Patrol puppy. That's the main one does my head. And yeah, I was like, not that.

00:17:20:09 - 00:17:31:10
Speaker 4
Also, we didn't want Kitty because she's a girl cat. We didn't want her to be at all nurturing or providing the food. Salty dog is actually the cook in the Upside Down, isn't it?

00:17:31:10 - 00:17:32:03
Speaker 2
He's a carer.

00:17:32:04 - 00:17:33:16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:17:33:17 - 00:17:53:14
Speaker 4
So yeah, that's been really good fun. I feel like I'm in a really nice position now because those things that, really valuable, like having yourself in your work and being able to experiment with your materials and how you make it work, they've really come together. And I don't feel so burnt out anymore. I think I had so much adrenaline in my system.

00:17:53:14 - 00:18:01:15
Speaker 4
I was about to explode. So it's really lovely. I've managed to organize it, that I'm not on a treadmill anymore and that's so lovely.

00:18:01:17 - 00:18:04:03
Speaker 3
And the book's been to Frankfurt, hasn't it?

00:18:04:07 - 00:18:16:07
Speaker 4
Yeah, I haven't heard back about how that's gone yet. The publishers get back and they're so exhausted and they have meetings and they take a while to come back to you with any feedback. So I have no idea how sort it went down at Frankfurt yet.

00:18:16:09 - 00:18:22:09
Speaker 3
You've got to bring some pictures, right? I want to read the story. So Kate is helping write or you're writing. Are you writing it together.

00:18:22:14 - 00:18:40:11
Speaker 4
Or writing together? Which is a really interesting process because we didn't really know how that would work. But with Katie, you sit with your laptop and I sit with my iPad and we open one Google doc, and we literally type at the same time. I can see the ghost of Katie TikTok type in at the same time I am, and we're just.

00:18:40:11 - 00:18:40:22
Speaker 2
Together.

00:18:40:23 - 00:19:01:06
Speaker 4
We're in the room together and we brainstorm and we talk about bits and pieces that have happened, like I'm thinking about when we decided to write the story, we had one less story to write and we were brainstorming what should we do it about? And we just start talking about things that happened. And I remembered that I were really good neighbors who live over the road when our kids were little.

00:19:01:06 - 00:19:26:02
Speaker 4
Because burek is a tiny town, we you have to make your own entertainment in burek, basically, don't you? So, we decided to have a raffle night. So, Albert, all of these rubbish raffle prizes, which was so funny, you know, like a Bic Biro or a pair of nylon tights. So you've bought all these prizes and we had this raffle and the pressure was high to win the prize.

00:19:26:02 - 00:19:42:07
Speaker 4
You wanted to win. And it was such a fun night and it was so low key. And the kids were really little. So little. Kids love anything that you just buy a couple of cheap prizes, and now it's like a whole evening of entertainment. And we remembered that. So we said, right, let's have a raffle.

00:19:42:09 - 00:20:08:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. And it's sort of organic to start writing. Yeah. Make each other laugh. Yeah, eat biscuits and drink tea and then read it again and tweak bits and read it again and tweak bits. But the bit that I thought was most exciting, it was finished, inverted commas, finished the first four stories, sent them to Walker, and then the editing was amazing because we obviously like the stories and we sent them and thought they were fine.

00:20:08:02 - 00:20:12:08
Speaker 2
But then there's some sprinkled, some magic and like, tighten them up and tweak them.

00:20:12:08 - 00:20:34:04
Speaker 4
They barely do anything, but they just do enough that I suppose, because they're on the outside and they're so clever, they're on the outside. They haven't been involved in the writing. They see more clearly which bits and maybe can just lose that little bit to get to the action more. They're so clear about the vision is that was magic, wasn't it?

00:20:34:04 - 00:20:38:12
Speaker 4
When they sent back their little edits and they were tiny edits, but they made all the difference.

00:20:38:14 - 00:20:45:01
Speaker 2
I was really scared to look. There they go. Well, what if they've just like Mark? Thing is, it read like see me. But it wasn't that kind of feedback. It was just like, see me.

00:20:45:01 - 00:20:45:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, physically.

00:20:46:00 - 00:20:47:04
Speaker 2
I've made your story even better.

00:20:47:04 - 00:20:50:12
Speaker 1
Here you go. What's. This is so good. Yeah, yeah.

00:20:50:17 - 00:20:54:16
Speaker 3
So YouTube basically created like, the Saturday Night Live writers room.

00:20:54:18 - 00:21:13:21
Speaker 4
You know. Yeah, I, I once overheard, I once overheard, heard on YouTube, Vic and Bob talking about how they write together. And I feel like we write in very much the same way they put a YouTube video on, make each other laugh and just, they watch a load of rubbish together and talk about memories, and then they just start writing.

00:21:13:21 - 00:21:16:04
Speaker 4
I think that's what's happened with us, hasn't that.

00:21:16:05 - 00:21:24:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think I, I didn't overhear either. I read that somewhere that because I was thinking it would be right. This is like the how I imagined they might do it.

00:21:24:09 - 00:21:35:15
Speaker 4
Yeah. And it's easy. And now I don't really want to write alone again. No. Because this is so much easier because if we've both laughed at it, that's like the seal of approval, isn't it? Must be.

00:21:35:15 - 00:21:36:11
Speaker 2
At least a tiny.

00:21:36:11 - 00:21:36:22
Speaker 3
Bit funny.

00:21:37:00 - 00:22:01:17
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah. Whereas when I write myself, sometimes I write and I get very excited and I'm type, type, type type. I am a genius. This is the funniest thing I have ever read. Leave it a couple of days, come back in a different mood and go, oh, is it good? I don't know if it is now, so it's really good writing with somebody else just for that extra like eyes and, taking some of the pressure off yourself.

00:22:01:17 - 00:22:03:08
Speaker 4
It's really good. Yeah.

00:22:03:08 - 00:22:06:08
Speaker 2
Like Katie's old work, isn't it? Any time.

00:22:06:09 - 00:22:26:02
Speaker 3
And it's good because you're at that stage of motherhood where you know exactly what your daughter likes and what she'll laugh at. So you're really close to the source, and you've always had the memory of it as a, a, children's illustrator, an author. You're kind of close to the source. But the two of you, together with the thought of.

00:22:26:03 - 00:22:32:02
Speaker 4
It, is really it is really good to have Katie, who's just dropped her toddler off at nursery, come in with those stories and you're like, oh yeah.

00:22:32:02 - 00:22:32:15
Speaker 1
I remember.

00:22:32:15 - 00:22:39:03
Speaker 4
That. Oh yeah. And then we're back and forth with this thing happened and they said this and then that's it. We're off. Oh yeah.

00:22:39:03 - 00:22:39:16
Speaker 2
I love it.

00:22:39:16 - 00:22:40:09
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:22:40:11 - 00:22:43:15
Speaker 2
Mining for content.

00:22:43:17 - 00:22:46:09
Speaker 3
So what you do, Katie?

00:22:46:10 - 00:23:04:17
Speaker 2
What am I doing? So this week, I'm traveling to Amsterdam for an event, which is exciting, but I'm not going to be traveling anymore, so I've made a big decision because I. So I feel like I spent this whole year, this whole two years really scaling my life illustration business, like I'm going a team, like salaried employees, blah, blah, blah.

00:23:04:19 - 00:23:09:03
Speaker 2
And then I got to the summer. Well, actually, it was like this time last year, I was like, this is terrible.

00:23:09:03 - 00:23:09:21
Speaker 1
I don't like this.

00:23:10:03 - 00:23:30:20
Speaker 2
But I hired more people and thought that would fix it and then got through the summer. Got busier and busier, which is great. I feel so silly for not enjoying it because on paper it's like, wow, that looks so good. It sounds amazing. But I was at a job in Sheffield and there was a ball of stress balls on the table with the, the logo.

00:23:30:20 - 00:23:42:01
Speaker 2
This was like my turning point. There was the logo of the company branded on these stress balls, and something in my brain just went thing, like irreversible. Whatever it was that went ticking. And I was like, did you put.

00:23:42:01 - 00:23:44:17
Speaker 1
Your head in the stress ball? I was like, I can't do this anymore.

00:23:44:22 - 00:23:52:11
Speaker 2
I just why have they put the logo on the stress balls? What is going on? You don't need to suddenly become very conscious and zoom out of your life, you know, like.

00:23:52:13 - 00:23:54:00
Speaker 1
Though I don't want to be doing this.

00:23:54:05 - 00:23:57:17
Speaker 3
It's kind of so much B.S., isn't it? So the necessary plastic.

00:23:57:17 - 00:24:15:16
Speaker 2
And this company was like trying to figure out ways to make people need the thing more so that they would buy more of it and use more of it. And I was just like, I don't want to do this anymore. So I really at that point was like, okay, I need to change something or I'm going to go mad or like burnt out or like it or go crazy or something.

00:24:15:22 - 00:24:37:10
Speaker 2
So that point I decided to reduce my team right down and go back to online events, because I feel like the traveling is stupid. The in-person events, some of them are lovely, of course. Don't get me wrong, the one I'm doing in Amsterdam is about sustainability, ironically so this borderline thing. But I was like, I just I'm not interested in being really, really busy anymore, especially if it's for stuff that makes me eye twitch.

00:24:37:15 - 00:25:05:04
Speaker 2
So. So suppose what I'm really working on is quite an in down, which is worked very well so far. And then it's been a little bit scary actually, because I've been so used to being so busy, you know, like get to the studio at 9:30, answer as many emails as I can, get on calls, have like back to back client calls for a few hours, grab lunch at my desk, do some work like calls, catch up with editor, an event blogger, and then as soon as I like, stop the flow, reduce the team.

00:25:05:05 - 00:25:07:08
Speaker 2
It was just quiet. I was like, oh no.

00:25:07:10 - 00:25:27:03
Speaker 4
I feel like I've been through the same thing with that now. Now I can start the day without a huge list of things I've got to get through, which is so lovely. But I feel I've been through a phase of feeling guilty about it, like I should. I should be working. Really? Why am I not working myself to exhaustion and then having to talk myself back down?

00:25:27:05 - 00:25:31:16
Speaker 1
Have you all right?

00:25:31:18 - 00:25:51:14
Speaker 4
Pi has sent my phone to the minions ringtone, so if you heard, love it. It's not my fault. I'll find my phone now. Yeah. Those conversations in my head because of years and years of working on a treadmill and, just feeling like that was normal. I really wanted to get off it. But there's another part of me that goes, you gotta carry on.

00:25:51:14 - 00:25:59:07
Speaker 4
You got carry on. I have to have a word for myself. The word myself. Say, come on, Helen, you don't have to work like that. You could walk like, work like a normal person.

00:25:59:09 - 00:26:17:09
Speaker 3
I remember seeing in a bookshop a couple of days ago. I saw that, you know, that group do the do projects to do first? Looks really good. And there's one book called you are not a to do list, an all weekend that just keeps rolling around in my mind as I go to my to do list. I think, right, I can cross three of them off.

00:26:17:09 - 00:26:33:16
Speaker 3
And, you know, it's, I think illustrated sort of what, seven days a week as well. I've always had a completely blurred boundary between the week and the weekend. So there's always a to do list. And I just keep seeing this picture of that book cover in my head and thinking, okay, so what does that look like if you're not a to do list?

00:26:33:18 - 00:26:55:15
Speaker 3
And freelancers, so used to constantly being in a state of slight panic and, pressure to keep working, you just think if it slows down or it's broken. I've broken everything. Yeah, but it's not. It's like a normal life. I used to always wonder what it would be like to have a salary job, to go on a Monday and come home on a, you know, whatever, a 9 to 5.

00:26:55:17 - 00:27:09:11
Speaker 3
Okay. You don't have agency over what you can do and don't want to do. And, you know, you have much less control over your life. But I always wondered what the imbalance, what would be the comparison between the two, which would be easier?

00:27:09:13 - 00:27:16:21
Speaker 4
I wonder if we should do a whole podcast on burnout and about the risk of burnout, because I speak to so many illustrators who struggle with this.

00:27:17:00 - 00:27:17:19
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think we should.

00:27:17:22 - 00:27:19:10
Speaker 4
Should we do a whole podcast about that?

00:27:19:10 - 00:27:20:03
Speaker 2
Definitely. Yeah.

00:27:20:03 - 00:27:22:12
Speaker 3
Get back to Katie. What she did to finish this.

00:27:22:12 - 00:27:41:09
Speaker 2
Part of what you're supposed to like. What I'm working on is getting ready to go to Amsterdam on Wednesday, Wednesday to Friday, and then after that. So I've got like some prep, got to prep the canvas, check that the client is happy with the the marketing team's happy with how I've designed the border of what I'm going to draw and stuff and then pack my bag.

00:27:41:09 - 00:27:41:12
Speaker 1
And.

00:27:41:12 - 00:27:58:07
Speaker 2
Things. But yeah, it's it's so nice. I've got an animation, I've got two animations to work on when I get home, so I've been enjoying not having them to work on yet because what's there and then a that's a big job that takes ages and it takes over your life a little bit. And but the nice thing is, I know I've just got them to do it.

00:27:58:07 - 00:28:00:18
Speaker 2
I haven't got loads of other things at the same time.

00:28:00:18 - 00:28:02:00
Speaker 3
Because you've slowed up, so.

00:28:02:03 - 00:28:02:20
Speaker 1
Slow down.

00:28:02:22 - 00:28:08:02
Speaker 3
Your whole life is about getting used to the new, slowed up, thinned out version.

00:28:08:04 - 00:28:13:08
Speaker 2
And I have a thing on my website that's like now booking for blood. I changed it to LA booking for January and October. That felt.

00:28:13:08 - 00:28:14:12
Speaker 1
So good.

00:28:14:14 - 00:28:28:12
Speaker 2
And then people get in touch. I'm like, no, I'm not booking till January, go away. But the nice thing about having a smaller team is I don't feel like I have to say yes to every single job just to pay people's wages. I have to say if I don't work, I don't work, and that's fine because I don't mind.

00:28:28:12 - 00:28:36:06
Speaker 2
But now I don't feel it was very stressful having to pay people's wages. And I think that and I would have just one wage to pay, which is fine.

00:28:36:08 - 00:28:42:07
Speaker 3
It's one of the most difficult things about management, isn't it? Feeling suddenly responsible for other people's lives financially.

00:28:42:13 - 00:28:51:09
Speaker 2
Yeah. And also other people's energy levels are different. Like I need loads of naps and things. I'm very sleepy. So when I'm like, oh, I don't want to work anymore. Other people are like, no, but you can't.

00:28:51:09 - 00:28:54:20
Speaker 1
Do that because we need to make this work. Like, come on, keep going.

00:28:55:02 - 00:29:00:20
Speaker 2
So I, I found that really tricky as well. But yeah, I'm never getting it. I think a burnout podcast would be really good.

00:29:01:00 - 00:29:01:23
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:29:02:00 - 00:29:03:00
Speaker 4
We'll do that.

00:29:03:02 - 00:29:05:04
Speaker 3
Okay. That's what we're up to.

00:29:05:06 - 00:29:08:12
Speaker 1
Okay. Lovely. Buh bye. Bye.