Unknown: 0:20

Yes, because we get in near the end of the year, we ought to tackle the question. Someone sent in a question and said, What do you think about the state of the illustration industry at present? And we tried to sidestep it, and then we're like, we really need to answer. This was Yeah, because it's a bit of it for a live call inside the business course or the picture book course. We were like, This is too big for a 45 minute question like quick fire Question and Answer thing. It's definitely a podcast chat. And it's also interesting to look at it from three different point of views, because when we first started talking about it this morning, I was like, Yeah, it's like that and cater is good. No, it's not that bad. Like, yeah. A lot of people have said so we and then picture books is totally different. So it's interesting to have three points of view on it, yeah, because, my opinion, I'm horribly optimistic. Always. It's fine, it's great. It's going so well. There's loads of work out there. All you need to do is change a few things. We've got loads of work. So I made a poster on sub stack, and a video, and most people were like, yeah, thank you for the pep talk. But then a couple of people were like, I appreciate your opinion, but you're wrong. This has been people saying it's been the hardest year ever in their 20 year careers of illustration. Yeah, there's that. That's what I'd heard. And I think a lot of people on threads and on illustrators chat areas, another kind of illustrators in the public eye have been saying it's the hardest year yet. So all the people we look up to her super duper, high flying illustrators like, Yep, there's been less work than any other year I've had before. And I think that hits particularly illustrators who are used to working with design companies or advertising agencies. So people who do work for branding and branding associated sales material have all said that the design companies are having a hard time too, as well, because the corporates that are giving the design companies the jobs are just sitting on the hands at the moment, because of world politics, because of the cost of living and lots of other kind of global reasons, no one's taking decisions on moving forward. So the design companies are having a bad time, and trickle down to a lot of illustrators in that area, plus editorial. The fees haven't gone up for years, and it's always been hard. It's been hard it's been hard the last five years working in editorial, but I think a lot of magazines have closed in the last year. So for most people, editorials dried up. If you're smart and you can work really quickly, and an editorial job takes you no more than three or four hours to do. And you know, it's probably worth it. But no one can work the way they used to, which was very, Oh, bless you, Katie. So hard not to this is Katie's optimistic sleaze. It's like, oh, please shut up. I'm allergic to negative news. As the resident Boomer, I have to give my my gloomy opinion. No, there's a and there's a lot of AI folding into that as well. You know, because some editorials using it, we've heard lots of anecdotal stories, haven't we, about people saying they've been given what looks like almost final artwork that's all been generated by AI, and effectively they're saying to the illustrator, right? Can you just put your spin on this. You know, we're commissioning you for your style reinterpret this. So it's almost like a stylistic smear on the top. And they're also saying we're not paying some, paying you so much because we as a client, have put the concept together, worked it all up. All you're doing is just doing the final artwork. So the fees have been cut in that sense. I mean, AI is a big subject. We could go into lots of other ways that it's beneficial and the way it doesn't work and but there's no denying it's had an impact on all aspects of the industry. But then picture books different, isn't it? I think, you know, I, I feel like I'm this is another subject where I don't really have this conversation very often, so I don't really know, but what I feel is that the the picture books are more creative and more gorgeous looking and full of sophisticated illustration than ever. When I first started out in doing picture books in the 1990s it was definitely a much, what's the word? Sort of safer. Publishers didn't want to take risks. The work had to be very safe. And there were all sorts of rules about what you could draw and what you couldn't draw. It was very limiting, when I look back on it, and that's all changed. And so there are some really, really exciting picture books being made really. Visually gorgeous, sophisticated, illustrated books being made. But most those books are mostly made by smaller publishers who don't have great budgets. Well, even the big publishers are not paying great advances. They've not gone up very much in years and years and years. And then those smaller publishers who are taking risks and making those very beautiful, sophisticated books are paying even less. So I think for a picture book maker to make a living at the moment is quite hard. Yeah, I think you probably need to be doing something else on the side until you have a book that's a real hit, and then your royalties help her. Listen to Deirdre McDermott from Walker books talk at Bologna, few years ago, maybe five years ago, talking about this from the publisher's point of view is that, in the past, an illustrator could be paid an amount, which would mean that they could spend a year or more on a book. So the book just took as long as it took, and that was the only book they worked on, and they would work really closely with the publisher. Sometimes they would just go and sit at the publisher and work there for a few days. And books, they could really nurture a book over a long period of time. But illustrators can't afford to dedicate all of their life to one book for a number of years with one publisher anymore. They have to spread themselves more thinly. So they're working for three or four different publishers on different picture books at the same time. And Deirdre was mourning the loss of that long term connection over hone in a book to make it as amazing as possible, but she also couldn't think of a solution without advances going up. And I don't know what all the reasons are for advances going up, but I think it's because books, I mean, in some ways, this is great. Books are sold at a much lower price because they're on Amazon, and Amazon get huge discounts, and then the illustrator runs less from that, and the supermarkets are taking them a bigger quantity, and they cost less money, which means more readers, which is absolutely brilliant, but it does really stretch things for everybody. It just means less money. So yeah, there's two sides to it, really. Yeah, picture book market has never been more creative and more exciting, and there is definitely work out there, but making those advances stretch is quite hard, and there's a lot more illustrators around as well, isn't it? I mean, there only used to be about three or four illustration courses in the UK, maybe 20 years ago. I'm kind of roughly approximating something I remember, but I was so shocked at the how few there were. And it was often graphic designers who became illustrators, or textile designers who became a bit print and pattern and kind of covered two areas. But now we have so many illustration courses in the UK, and we're offering illustration courses as well. So it is quite a crowded market, and people can afford to pick and choose. So that's one of that's one of the other aspects, which is why you really need to be 100% yourself and fly your freak flag so you stand out. I was gonna say it's motivation, if anything, yeah, to really be to be yourself, 100% yourself. It's what publishers want. It's what they're looking for. Everyone's looking for everybody. Yeah, when somebody commissions illustration, they don't want generic or or if they do want generic, they want it as cheap as possible, and that's all they're looking for. You don't want to be going down that. Yeah, exactly to the cheapest. I mean, the worst thing you can be, I think, as an illustrator, is take a people pleaser mentality to it and replicate what you've already seen in the market. Thinking, this looks I'm making something that looks like illustration. If that's where your mind is, you've really got to shift that out, because that's already done. That ship has sailed, and it's very crowded as well. So you're easily, as we said before, you can be substituted so so easily. And if you're working on things that are visual trends as well, that lots of people are working with, once again, you you're just camouflaging yourself in a great sea of similar illustrators and that you see picture book editors want something unique and amazing in terms of voice and content and style, but the advertising industry, most of all, that is just desperate for new weirdness, because it makes it stand out. I think, you know, in this world, it's slightly hipster world, where everyone began producing things in an artisanal or individual way, and now they've been gobbled up by the big corporates who have to look like the handmade, genuine, original person. It shows everyone's all over it. Now, not just the independent kind of publishers or independent scene, the corporates want originality, and you do still have things like digital products that don't have any visual manifestation. So illustrators are really important to those companies, whether it's finance or tech, that need to create a human or externalized character, and the illustrators are so good for that you can't do it any other way. And even AI can't do that. You know, humanity like AI has pushed that so like because AI exists, the hand drawn action. Will illustrate a human line is so much more valuable. Now I feel like my eyes are just hungry for it. Whenever I see an illustration, when I'm, you know, scrolling through Instagram, and I see something wonky and not drawn, right, and that the person has struggled with it, and there's awkwardness in it, it pleases my eyes so much, because it's just full of life and the full of the human behind it. I think you're right. I think the all of the AI stuff makes you desperate for handmade it's like the recording of sound, isn't it, when CDs came out and everything was really over produced and super slick, it's like the digital slurry that you see when you look at credit Helen with digital slurry, actually you must copyright that. Well, my work. Thanks very much. You said digital slurry. I got that from garbage day. The sub stack guy is called, is it garbage day? Garbage I don't know. We'll, we'll stick it underneath the podcast after, I think it's garbage day. Yeah, he'd wrote a great piece about AI and yeah, you called it digital slurry. I mean, we're only about two years into it now, but you can see it already where, you know, people with Mediums or sub stack think I'd like an illustration here. I'll just get one of the, I can't remember. There it is horrible, the hyper, shiny, high contrast, extreme blacks, you know, darks and lights and all that awful color. So I think I've spoken to some people who are nothing to do with the illustration industry, and they're like, Yeah, you can really see it. So regular people can see it now. And it's like when clip art first came out, going back to the music analogy, when CDs made everything over produced, and people were like, let's just go and play some scratchy vinyl that was recorded in an old blues recording studio in the 1960s because you can hear the authenticity and the reality of the person and the humanity. And that's exactly what I think we're going to start looking for in in visual arts, something that can't be replicated. I mean, it's not all bad. I've seen some amazing stuff that's quite mind blowing. And so the Imagineer, people of the world who can't make it are thinking up some incredible things, whether it's film or stills, but yeah, some of it, I think we don't have to worry. I really like looking at the air hostess Jesus themes on Facebook. There's this whole thing of these AI images that are usually religious. They usually have Jesus on, but also surrounded by obsessives. This is a niche area Helen. It's not niche. It's massive. And I think garbage day pointed me at it. That's how I first discovered it. Actually, they do AI does have that kind of feel, doesn't it have highly wrought, you know, religious images that you'd get Sunday school. Yeah, these are all sort of sexy hostesses. So there's the whole kind of religious audience, and then the sexy it's honestly, you've got to look it up. It is not really, not Did you see that Jim will paint it? And people used to send in requests, and this man called Jim would paint or drill. I've seen somebody do that. I don't know if it was that one, but there's a few other people doing bad pet portraits and things, and they're brilliant. They're so funny, so good. I was thinking, Jim will paint it save him loads of work, AI, because you can just type in what people are asking for, like, like, Jesus were their hostess. Going back to the after that crazy interlude, I'm going to get you back on track the illustration industry, the people who are really here for the illustration industry, but your life. Scribing is meant to be a really good area, also children's packaging. So if you Yeah, according to creative, boom, yep, did an article. You said, Tanya, what? It's an article, really good article. What agents are looking for in 2025 Yeah. Well, I think things like this again, I'm horribly optimistic. So hashtag, sorry, not sorry. But I would say in when times are hard, that is the perfect time. As illustrators, as creatives, we are really creative, really imaginative, sort of geared towards entrepreneurial things. We can have ideas and diversify. So I think times like these is no better time. There is no better time to be coming up with things, monetizing new things, diversifying your income, and even, like, getting a part time job. I know that's people get really like, Oh no. I always think like when you're starting out, or if you're having a down time with the illustration, getting a part time job really helps take the financial pressure off. It helps you refocus on the time that you do have that's left so that you're not just panicking. And when you don't have that panicky feeling, clients don't get the ick when they talk to you, because you're not like, yes, please, I'll do it straight away. You're like, oh, you know, I can do it, but you know, I'll need three weeks, because I've only got this amount of time, and that can really get you back on an even keel. So you're not like, going feast and famine. And also it gets you out of sitting in your studio going, oh god, oh god, oh god. You know you're with other people. You refresh yourself by being in another place. You're doing something, you're taking your brain off this, like hyper focus of it's all going wrong, and there's not much work. I think there's nothing worse. Is the of a whole week stretching ahead of you where you need to think of some ideas like that is just a kiss of death for me. I like to have little spots of time where I'm thinking really hard or working, or an idea might come while I'm washing up or doing something else. I think intensive time at a desk over a long period of time with a goal of ideas is really, really hard. I was really relieved to hear when I went down to the children's writers, Book Writers and Illustrators, Joseph Coelho was one of the keynote speakers there, and she was Helen, and so was I. And he was talking about how he cannot sit at his desk for a whole day and write. He likes to write in short bursts. Quickly. Ideas come. He gets them down, and then he moves on. He does something else. He doesn't sit at his desk for a whole day, a whole week, and write. I love her. I think as well, licensing is a good thing to get into in a time like this, when you're saying, you know, there's no time like a tough time to come up with some new ideas. I think for people who have got a body of work spanning back two or three years. There's probably lots of stuff that either was used, wasn't used, or you don't put it on your website. If you went through your archive and had a look at what you've got and thought, who could use these? Where could I pitch this? There's a lot of work that could be really well used and meet the needs of clients who haven't got big budgets at the moment and don't necessarily, can't afford a full development commission. But if they looked at a body of work, could say, you know, for example, children's packaging, and you've got problem, you know, you haven't got enough income this particular year from children's picture books. You could boost it by going to see a licensing agency, for example, like brighter has got a licensing wing now, which is specifically children picture book orientated. Always seems to be. There's a sort of friendliness to the visuals that would work really well with children's products. So just going to see someone like that with your body of work and say, Well, can you pick something from this? Could you create a range out of it, whether it's cards or packaging or whatever. So think about how your work could be licensed as another, another way of approaching it. But those areas and new new media illustration, like Katie, apparently, there's a lot of work there, yeah. And I forgot to mention that, like for me, in the live illustration thing animation, there's, I don't, haven't noticed any difference in terms of demand for work. If anything, there's been more demand this year. It looks like a growing area. And also that animation thing as well. The most clients want some animation. I don't think if you can do that, that as even if it's just, you know, making a GIF, GIF. And what was the other thing they were talking about, oh, inclusivity. A lot of projects are now being pitched, obviously, with an inclusivity built into it. So a lot of agents are going out and looking for people from a broader sector of society and make not making it so so white and so female. I don't know, it feels like there's a lot of female illustrators about now, more than men as well. But yeah, that's another growth area. It's a really interesting article to see what the agents want that's being reflected from their clients. Yeah, I think, like, the thing with the illustration industry as a whole, you can't control what's happening in the world, but you can control what you're doing. I think that if you focus on the illustration industry, Oh, it's terrible, you're just gonna have a terrible time. But if you focus on the things you can change, like improving your marketing, communicating the value that you do provide, working out which clients you want to work with, who've got the budget and need your work that's gonna be much nicer experience for you, yeah, and doing some passion projects that pitch towards the clients you want to work with, yeah? If there's not a lot of work around maybe do what you've always dreamt of doing and then put that on the right on the front of your website. Yeah, that's flying your freak flag, isn't it? Yeah, make your work more you, more authentically you, and share it. Yeah, that's a good point, Helen, that you mentioned flying your freak flag because we have quietly opened the doors to find your creative voice. Fly your freak flag so anytime that you feel like finding your creative voice, now you can just join. You don't have to wait for us to open the doors anymore. Just for that course, we were opening and closing too many doors. We were always opening and closing doors because we have three courses now, so that one is now permanently open. Yeah? Just hop on whenever you want. If you join between now and the end of January, you will receive a little packet in the post of good ship stickers and the chance to win a one on one mentoring session. So you'll be when you've done the course, you'll be able to send. A few pieces of work in the captains will look at all of the work you send in, and we will choose three people to do one on one mentoring sessions with. And then everybody will get the benefits of those sessions, because we'll drop it into the course and share it with everybody. Yes, we love the mentoring bits. Yeah. Okay, their end of the review of the Year. Bye. Bye. Bye, you