The Good Ship Illustration

Is AI Coming for your job? Illustrators are fighting back! (Part 2) with Chris Haughton

• The Good Ship Illustration • Season 10 • Episode 28

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This week, we’re back with part 2 of our conversation with the brilliant Chris Haughton – illustrator, author, and passionate copyright advocate.

Here's a link to part 1 in case you need to catch up!

In this half of our Chris Haughton special, Chris shares how his first picture book came about, and we also chat about confidence, creative doubt, and why showing up again and again matters.

And then… we go deep on AI. 

Copyright, ethics, government policy, and what we illustrators can actually do to protect our work. Chris is off to Parliament soon (!!!) and shares everything he’s learned so far.

In this episode:

  • How Chris got his first book deal without an agent
  • Staying confident through rejection and doubt
  • The terrifying reality of generative AI and what we can do about it
  • How copyright works (and what’s at risk)
  • The organisations fighting for our creative rights

Timestamps:
 00:00 – How Chris broke into picture books (by accident)
 04:00 – Animation, art school, and graphic style
 08:00 – Building confidence through volume
 10:00 – Words, images, and writing your own stories
 14:00 – Why AI is a massive threat to illustrators
 17:00 – Who’s fighting back (and how to get involved)
 21:00 – Why we need all creatives on board

🛟 Links + Resources mentioned in this episode:

✨ If this episode has ye all fired up (us too!) please do share it with your creative pals – and don’t forget to subscribe so you don’t miss what’s next!

Bye bye,
 x The Good Ship Illustration (Helen, Katie & Tania)

Come and say hello!

✏️ @thegoodshipillustration
🌏 www.thegoodshipillustration.com

p.s. We love answering your illustration questions. Click here to submit your question for The Good Ship Illustration Podcast 🎙

Another question, Anon says, how long were you working as an illustrator before you were offered to write and illustrate your own books? Did you have an agent who encouraged you to write and illustrate your own work?

I mean, I, I wasn't offered. I so what, it's a funny story actually. So, for years I was trying to write a picture book 'cause I really wanted to do that and. I went to I mean I was going home to Ireland every, every Christmas and I'd meet with my old friends and they're like, oh, what, what are you up to?

And I was like, oh, I'm trying to write a children's book. And every year it got [00:01:00] embarrassing saying, oh yeah, where's the children's book? Whatever. Anyway, after about five years, I was telling this to my studio mate, and she was like, oh, you should go to Bologna book Fair. Just as a deadline. 'Cause then you'd have to write a children's book or do a draft of children's book, you know, 'cause that's, that's a deadline.

So I booked my ticket to Bologna. I literally spent the last weekend, do, trying to come up with a children's book idea and managed to do it. Uh, you know, a vague idea of a children's book went around children's. Like all, all, all of the publishers. And I was offered a, a contract from a Korean publisher.

And so then I made that, and then it, it, it wasn't gonna get translated into English. So like, this is like 18 months later. It still wasn't, uh, translated into English. So I went back to, to bologna two [00:02:00] years later and with these Korean, uh, children's books. And I was at like giving them to publishers, like asking, you know, would, would they consider translating it?

And then it did get translated and that's when I got uh, it, it published with Walker. And so yeah, it, it, it, it was um, really just trying to get into to that and, and, and it was funny actually. My first w when I went to to Bologna the first time, my work kind of stood out like a sore thumb because it was computer generated and, uh, a lot of the children's books were quite watercolor or, or traditional stuff.

So there was only a few publishers that took an interest. And actually the Korean one wa was, it was a really artsy, um, uh, publisher and some of the European ones were doing more [00:03:00] sort of graphicy stuff, but a lot of the British publishing houses weren't so, uh, you know, my, my work definitely didn't really sort of fit in with a lot of the children's books at that time, which is another endorsement of the whole kind of find your voice for your free fly, your freak flag, isn't it?

I can imagine at the time it probably really scared the horses. Because he didn't really look like anything else, did it. He didn't look like children's books. But now you have created in, in a new avenue for children's books in many ways because it was quite groundbreaking. Yeah. I mean, I mean it's it doesn't look unusual now, but yeah, definitely at the time there was, I, I mean, it didn't look in, in any way unusual amongst the sort of the work in magazines and newspapers, which is where I come from.

I mean, I wasn't innovating anything. But, it just hadn't migrated o over to, to, to children's [00:04:00] books. And so yeah, I, I mean I worked, I, I, I didn't say that in the in the talk or anything, but I, um, worked for a year. When was that? Around 2004, something like that. 2004 in, in an animation studio in London.

Uh, and there was an amazing uh, animation studio called Studio AKA And they did, they, they did, uh, hey Dougie, and they were doing lots of, they did brilliant work, but it was mainly advertising. And, but they were all very much sort of computer generated stuff and very, almost like graphic designers making animation really.

So I sort of picked up the ways of working from them and then, um, sort of transferred it to the other things I was doing really. Can't we ask? 'cause in relation to one of the questions in the chat, Margaret's saying, um, when you get demons of doubt creeping in, [00:05:00] I'm just thinking the confidence that you had, obviously from your early stage in your career during editorial and advertising, you knew that there was an appetite for your work.

But to maintain that confidence as you searched for a publisher to take that on. And I love the way that you didn't even need an agent. You found your Korean tribe who, and like you say perhaps an a more artsy, progressive publisher who was prepared to take a risk and could recognize the quality in your work.

How have you ever dealt with doubt about what am I doing? Yeah, I mean, especially with, the, uh, I mean early stages my career. It like you, you'd be pumping out illustrations. So re regularly like the editorial things, you know, often it's like next day turnaround and stuff like that. But yeah, the, the, the first I mean, I used to be like, oh my God, is that, is it, it's either brilliant or terrible.

I mean, you know, do you know what I mean? [00:06:00] And, but it's three in the morning and you can't tell the difference anymore. Yeah, yeah. And you know, is it, is it too simple or is it, that it looks like I'm getting away with something or, yeah. And so this sort of thing, but if you're doing it again and again and again, and I mean, I look up, you know, I, I kept folders for this is, the work I did in 2002, this is the work I did in 2003, this, and each illustration would, would be in a different folder, and some of 'em have like 75 folders in it, different, these would be illustration projects.

So like, you're doing a lot of. Illustrations, some of them might be a whole campaign. And, and yet, like we, I had to do that amount of work to get money for rent. Like it was just, I mean, you get, like, some of them would be like, a few hundred quid or whatever for a sort of editorial illustration.

And um, you know, you just have to [00:07:00] do, and you'd be doing at least one or two a week and then hoping for a, for an advertising illustration. But yeah, you just sort of, after a while, yeah. I mean you even get to know the, the art directors and everything and you're like. They're like it's fine.

They, so they actually tell you off, we're gonna print. It's fine, Chris, don't worry. You, you're like, okay. You know? And the art director reassured you, and you desensitized yourself by producing so much work that you, you put the doubt to sleep. Yeah. Well, the, and the, the thing with actually the really useful thing with working in animation was just how ruthless and brutal everything was.

You know, you'd come up with a sort of storyboard and they're like, no acts that acts that you're like, ah, and then it's justs gone and then you realize it's much, it's much better. After they edited out all the bits that, you know, you were sort [00:08:00] of, uh, you'd worked today to some, okay.

She says, kill all your darlings. You need that with collaboration though, don't you? For someone that you trust to say, no, I'm sorry. You can't put that in. That's gonna go, yeah. And, and, and another thing that was interest you know, I'd never thought about using words and writing, but working with advertising copywriters and stuff like that, I was honestly jealous of their job.

I, I, I just thought, wow, that's so much fun. They just sit around and come up with a slogan, like, and it's, you know, a sort of funny, witty slogan. And I was like, oh, that seems like great fun. And then it works really well with the illustration, you know, or they say, oh, well, since you've done that, I'm gonna change the wording like this.

And I'm like, oh, that, you know, I, I wanna be doing that. So that, that was one of the things that well just sort of made me realize, oh. I could write I I could try that. It, it, it, it's, it's [00:09:00] not so hard if you just, you know, the illustration is there and you've just got a sentence underneath it.

You know, what is that sentence? What makes it the funniest illustration? It can be, and it's, it's just the wording. And it's, it's either funny or it's not funny. You, you know what I mean? And, um, so that was very inspiring for me just getting to work with all these other sort of creatives who each were, had a different angle on, on you know, what, what we were putting out.

Yeah. That whole thing of like, you, the word is apple, but you the illustration is a banana, so you, that you're never repeating it, and there's a, the interplay between. That's a great piece of advice though, for people who are a bit nervous about writing, to think of themselves as author illustrators and making the story picture led in that way.

Have you got another question, Helen? There's one from Anna about ai. Should illustrators be highlighting the legal and professional guarantees we provide, the things we [00:10:00] automatically agree to when we sign contracts, but might overlook since they're non-creative?

Or do you think governments weakening and copyright means some clients will stop caring about getting sued? I don't exactly know what the question means. Maybe we, I dunno a little bit. And how it, do you think it's gonna threaten illustrator's careers? I'm very worried about this. Yeah. I, uh, I actually, when I first moved to London in around 2003, I the a OI.

The Association of Illustrators had this, they offered this course where they said, we'll teach you copyright over two weekends, and, um, if you do this course and agree to look at members contracts, um, you know, provide them with advice, uh, you, you get free membership. So I did that and I did it for about five years.

And it was just a way to, of me to, to sort of connect [00:11:00] with the illustration community here. And so a lot of the copyright advisors I'm still in touch with, with them all, they were really worried, um, and are really worried about the whole situation with So what for people who don't know, um, any work that you make, whether that's illustration or writing or music composing, whatever.

If you make it, you don't have to do anything. It's already, the copyright is, is with you. And if someone, um, is inspired by it, that's fine. If, if someone copies it, they, they're infringing your, your copyright. Uh, and what, what has, what generative AI does is hoovers up, um, billions of images.

So the [00:12:00] mid journey and a lot of the image gen AI image things, they have been using this sort of database of 5.6 billion images. And they're training, they, they're basically scanning like the entire images and then reproducing, uh, the work. So, you know, if you type in, do a squirrel in the style of Chris Horton or whatever, it will come up with sort of my colors and sort of a graphic sort of squirrel.

And this is clearly illegal. It's absolutely illegal in under a copyright law, but the government is trying to change that because they're being paid. Big tech has enormous amounts of money and, um, they've been you know, I mean, they, they've been cozying up to the, the the governments like Claire Barkley, um, is.

She was ex [00:13:00] CEO of Microsoft uk. She's now the Minister for Industrial Strategy. Uh, Lord Valens was head of like a something poly, something which was bought by Google, basically. It's a Google company and he's minister for Science, I think it is. But basically the, there's, you know, so the, I I'm actually going to the House of Commons, uh, with the a OI in about 10 days time to argue our case in front of mps, um, labor mps, but yeah, it's, it's very worrying. I mean, it, it's, there's lots of ongoing court cases at the moment. And because anyone who produces creative work, there's 2.4 million people in the UK that are part of the sort of creative industries and the, I mean potentially the, I mean, [00:14:00] gen AI is taking your work and without taking like any permission is using your work and.

Then producing something that is potentially competing with you, so it's completely ludicrous to, to, um, want to change copyright, to suit them. So yeah, it's a very worrying development. But yeah, the, the, the press I is, is with us, but I mean, I, I, I don't know how powerful the press is anymore.

There's a statistic that I heard that, um, Google and Facebook together earn more through advertising than every single newspaper in the world combined. Wow. Like, so, the, you're sort of, fighting against a giant, like it's, this is, this is the situation. So, but I, I actually, I have [00:15:00] a. I have a history of copyright in the book in my book.

So there's like, it's actually, it's very, I mean, it, it sounds a lot more interesting or it is a lot more interesting than it sounds. But, um, it is really interesting and it, it actually copyright came from censorship, an attempt on se censorship. And, and that's where we copyright anyway. So I've probably is all, all gathered here tonight.

I think I, I just feel like saying thank you so much for doing all this research and going to Parliament on our behalf because I feel unequipped and I'm glad you've got the kind of brain that can hold all this information and talk about it confidently. Brilliant. No. Well, yeah. Um, please do get involved and, you know, I, I, I share things occasionally follow the a OI and if you're not already a member, join the a OI they're doing amazing, [00:16:00] amazing work.

And they're the thing that, you know, they are the equivalent of our union, the closest thing we have to a union. So, they're sticking up for our, our rights. And there's others, you know, Dax and, uh, others. But, the Society of Authors and the Association of Illustrators are fighting this together.

And, and, and they, they regularly have meetings, you know, Derek Brielle from the a OI was saying, it's really incredible because they literally have every, um. They have meetings now with all you know, from musicians to journalists, to authors, illustrators. Everybody is absolutely terrified of this.

And they're all coming together and we're, we're thinking, there's a little group that we've from the a OI, we actually met up a couple of days ago, and we're thinking of, doing some sort of strike I don't know, but with sort of, so social media strike. We're, we're gonna try and [00:17:00] do a little animation about to explain the, the situation to get more and more people involved in this.

But yeah, it's, it's really, really worrying because I think, it's not just our creative thing. The, the, the problem is like, who holds the governments to account now? If they have reduced all writers, journalists, authors. Artists, we're always the annoying ones that sort of go, nah, you're not doing this, or whatever.

I mean, this is why we have freedom of speech. But if we don't have any way of paying any authors, because Chachi BT is doing it that, we, we don't have a voice and they're using our voice against us. 'cause it's like everything that went into cha to make cha GPT was created by us. It wasn't created by them.

It's just yeah. It, it, it's criminal. It's absolutely criminal. And, and I can't believe this labor [00:18:00] government is siding with them. Yes. That, yeah. Um, Chris, is there anywhere outside of the a OI or is there a way to join. Without having to buy the a OI me membership, I'm only asking that from a kind of, if you're economically changed anything, I can't afford membership.

They need to gather as many illustrations. Oh, absolutely. No, no. And you don't need to, to sign up as a member. You can I'm just follow them on Instagram that they're always posting about any, um, you know, the latest developments, um, Simona Ha has a blog called Against the Box as a Substack thing, and, and she's posting, um, regular updates about about gen AI and, and the sort of fight against it.

We just need to get all the creatives together, don't we? What musicians, artists, writers and globally into one. Each country is gonna have its own approach. Do you think we, do you think the UK's worse with the hand, with them offering to hand a copyright [00:19:00] to tech companies, or is the US the same? Um, well, this, that proposal was way worse.

Yeah. The, the US and the UK copyright is slightly different. The US has this fair use thing, which is basically like, you can use quotes and, and, and whatever. Well, the, the, the, there is a, a huge amount of fight, fight back in the uk. The, the UK really is a cultural superpower. It, it punches far beyond its size in, in, in terms of, you know, I mean, music and, and art and, uh, writing really. It's so it, it's insane. And, and we're terrible.

You know, we're not terrible. But, there's not that much big tech here. It's all in the us so it just doesn't make any sense. It's like completely shooting yourself in the foot. But I mean the the. Big tech is just cozied up to, um, [00:20:00] the government. See, I mean, you see in Trump's inauguration, like, but it's exactly the same all around the world.

And, um, they've just got money coming outta their ears. Like it's just, let us know about the strike 'cause we'll put that in our newsletter and we'll put all these links to the different groups working to protect their own copyright into some of our newsletters. Maybe we'll do a special and we'll get everything out there and that will bring all us good shippers on in one go.

I mean, we do put a lot in the Facebook group about it whenever the a OI is putting things out there or any of the different groups like Dax. Yeah. Brilliant. So yeah, let's keep connected on all of that so we can, we can unleash the power of the ship on them. That will stop. Yeah. Well, we've kind of run over, we haven't got Katie here to help us keep to our boundaries.

Otherwise we just, yeah. Sorry for going off on one with, with, with ai, it's just, oh, no. We need someone to do it because we get questions, don't we, Helen? Um, we are aware of [00:21:00] things, but it's like standing in a river and the river is flowing past you, and whatever you say as a statement at that point will not be true in a month's time.

And it's, it's just so hard to grasp what to do other than come out in support of artists and creatives and join all the bodies that we can that will help fight this. But we really appreciate you talking about it and all that you've done for illustrators.

Thank you for that, Chris. Yeah, no, no, no worries. And there, there, there's a whole group, um, Jed Adamson, uh, Simon Ola Mamako Abbe Benji Davies, uh, you know, and, and Derek in, in the a OII mean there's loads of people doing great, great things. And so yeah. Tha thanks to them. Well, if you ever want to pass any info or names or actions onto us, please do.

And we'll send it straight out because Never mess with the middle aged ladies. I'm the middle aged men. Yeah. And the middle-aged men as well. Well, they, we, when we can bring them all together, um, we could [00:22:00] solve this, but I really appreciate you talking about it and, and for sharing all your ideas and your thoughts about your work and answering our questions on the spot.

Um, it's been a, it's been really nice having you here. Oh my, my pleasure. Yeah. And uh, I, I, I, I hope some of that was useful and, uh, yeah. Tha thanks so much.