'If it looks awful, keep going. It’ll work out' - an interview with illustrator Catherine Rayner

This week we’re interviewing another creative for the podcast. Hooray!

Catherine Rayner is an award-winning author and illustrator based in Edinburgh, whose books have sold over two million copies and been translated into 35 languages. She’s written and illustrated 25 picture books and collaborated with legends like Julia Donaldson, Michael Morpurgo, and Michael Bond. 

Winner of the Kate Greenaway Medal (and shortlisted six more times!), Catherine also paints, runs a greetings card and babywear range, and can usually be found in her studio surrounded by ink, animals, and Post-it notes.

Phew.

In this chat, Katie asks Catherine about:

• What an average week in the studio looks like
• Planning everything using a wall calendar and Post-it notes 
• Working with Julia Donaldson
• Short deadlines and thriving on a wee bit of panic
• Being a mum and illustrator at the same time
• Instagram, rejection, keeping your creative confidence alive
• A pep talk for newer illustrators

Rough timestamps for our timestamp fans:
00:00 – Meet Catherine!
03:00 – Post-it notes, assistants, and studio life in Edinburgh
10:00 – Julia Donaldson, ear-cleaning(!?) + friendship
17:00 – Jason Donovan and creative boldness
20:00 – 100 rejections, persistence, and finding your people
23:00 – Instagram tips and why numbers don’t matter
29:00 – Motherhood, burnout, and how it really gets easier
36:00 – Catherine’s parting words

Links mentioned
Catherine Rayner’s website
Follow Catherine on Instagram

Byeeee for now!
 x The Good Ship Illustration (Helen, Katie & Tania)

Come and say hello!

✏️ @thegoodshipillustration
🌏 www.thegoodshipillustration.com

p.s. We love answering your illustration questions. Click here to submit your question for The Good Ship Illustration Podcast 🎙

Transcript

Oct 4 - Catherine Rayner
===

[00:00:00] Hello. Today we've got Catherine Rayner with us, which I'm very, very excited. So hello Catherine. Thank you for coming on the Good Ship Illustration Podcast. Hello. It's lovely to be here and to see you. Yes, likewise. I've got your proper introduction here, so I'm gonna read this out in case you listening, have never met Catherine, you in for a treat.

Um, that Catherine Rayner is a multi award-winning author and illustrator based in Edinburgh. Her books for children are sold. Over 2 million copies worldwide, been translated into 35 languages and adapted for television, theatre and musicals. She's written and illustrated 25 of her own books and collaborated with authors including [00:01:00] Julia Donaldson, Michael Morpurgo, and Michael Bond.

Catherine's also won the Kate Greenaway medal in 2009, and since being shortlisted further six times, her work has earned numerous accolades in the US and the UK, including the UKLA book award, the BookTrust Early Years Award, and the Junior Library Guild Gold Standard in the USA alongside her publishing work. Catherine runs a successful range of greetings cards and has launched her own babywear collection featuring characters from her books. She regularly exhibits her large-scale paintings in galleries across the UK, and her artwork is held in collections worldwide.

I am very curious as well to hear about what an, what an average week looks like in your life. It, it's kind of chaotic at the moment. It's half term in Scotland. Today I haven't got my 9-year-old with us, but, he's been in the studio with me making comics, which is really cute, but I don't get much done.

Oh. And then I've got my 14-year-old here, he started working for me a little bit. He does, he helps me with my cards when he is on holiday. It's great. So he's actually [00:02:00] turned out quite helpful. I remember my mum saying to me when they were babies one day they'll be helpful people. And I thought, well, currently when will that happen?

Oh, this is so hard. But the, um, the week. Is I'm quite strict 'cause I don't work from home. I don't think you do either, do you? I've got a studio. No, I've got a studio outside the house. Yeah. I swapped having a studio outside the house about seven years ago. Actually it can't be. It was 2019, it was just before lockdown, which is great.

Moved everything outta the house into a studio down at Edinburgh Printmakers, which is perfect because there was the printmaking upstairs and lot screen printing and my studio was downstairs and I loved it. And then we all got sent home within about nine months because, uh oh, lockdown happened and I'd already given my studio to a little one 'cause I'd to move out because didn't have enough.

But now I've got my own studio. I moved out of there just every year ago and I have my own space, which is quite big and it's quite lovely, but I really miss all the people that are at the Printmakers. But I needed more space 'cause I have two assistants [00:03:00] and they come and work here with me. But, um, so they work, yeah, three days a week.I've got someone here. Uh, so my routine drop off small person at school, get here and. I think I need more of an actual daily routine on a Monday. We are all in, so we sort of have a bit of a catch up, do a brief for the week, work out what's happening when look at the deadlines for the week, which commissions I've gotta have completed by the end of the week.

Lucy's brilliant, she's worked for me for I think nine years now, a long time, and she'll sit down and tell me if there's anything that's. I've gotta get out in the next couple of days. And then we'll look at a bit of a marketing strategy for that week. Or if we've planned it in advance, we'll look at what we'd already planned for that week and make sure that we've got time to do it.

Then all the shop orders go out and we get well KO does that, who's so have Lucy who organizes like my publishing side of things for me, she'll. Liaise with the publisher about events, commissions and artwork and gallery stuff. And then KO does my website and sends out all the products that we sold and bits and bobs like that does digital stuff.And then I just panic and flop about draw [00:04:00] things. Amazing. That must be so good having that the structure of other people, it's almost like accountability, isn't it? Like, oh, we need to get everything sorted 'cause they're here. Yeah, and then on the days they're not there, you can kinda get in your creative zone and not be thinking about.

Yeah, I really, I find it hard actually having someone in the studio with me so much because I'm a chatterbox. It's not them, it's me. And we joke about it. I say to them all the time, will you just tell me to shut up and get on with my work? And they do. Well, Lucy does then because it's not quite so confident doing it.

She's like, Catherine, go on with your work. Put your headphones on, put your audio book on and get on with it. Um, I find doing commission stuff really easy when they're around, but getting my teeth into my next book, I need pure silence. And like, I get obsessed with it and I just need. To make a mess.I don't need any interruptions and I'll just get on with it. They're both off this week 'cause it's half term. And yesterday I got so much done. So many ideas and it was, it was good fun. But every week's so different. I dunno if you're the same, I never know. Because if you are away doing book tours or you are away doing book festivals or events [00:05:00] or library things, the week's turned on its head.

So we just have to take it week by week, really. Yeah. Do you block in some like recovery time after book fairs and events and stuff, or are you kinda just straight back hit the ground running? There's always so much to do. I've realized. I listened to a podcast not that long ago. Oh no. It was my printer who said it to me.I gave him, we were doing this 30 prints in 30 days print release. And he thought I wanted just 30 prints. He didn't realize that I wanted th 30 times 10, and he was like, I stayed up all night doing it. I didn't realize. I said, I'd do it for you by this date, but it's taken ages. And I was like, I feel terrible.

I was like, Kevin, I'm so sorry. And he went, no, I love it. I love a deadline. I love being really busy. And it's the first time anybody had ever sort of said it with a positive voice, and I was like, oh. I think I'm the same. I think I actually really thrive on the, we gotta do this, we've gotta do this, and I've got this coming up, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So I don't really book in any relaxing time afterwards. But after an event, I do like to have a KitKat Chunky. [00:06:00] That is a good, good shout. Yeah. Half an hour staring at the wall and I KitKat Chunky and then I'm fine. Recalibration, complete. Totally. I do get more and more tired though. I've noticed that as I've got older, which is something I've realized.

I've started saying I get really tired. I work at half speed for a few days afterwards. Yeah, interesting. There is something about a short deadline though, isn't there? That's like. I always feel like when I'm talking to clients and they say, oh, the deadline's quite tight. I'm like, to be honest, I would be ignoring it until the deadline was close anyway, so if the deadline's close, it's good.

It just means I'm gonna get it done straight away. So please don't feel bad. I do leave things to the, to the end of the deadline. I never used to, but now it's just so busy. But Lucy does keep me with the commissions.

We have a very, we have like a grid of when it's got to be done and when I've said I'll deliver it and when, um. Where it's gotta be posted to. And if there's a birth, if it's a gift for a birthday and we like have the birthday plastered in and all the rest of it, oh, that's cool. I guess we're more organized than I think we're, yeah.

Do you have any, um, like [00:07:00] in terms of like project management technology or software or anything, is there anything like that behind the scenes or have you got like a whiteboard? This is just my nerdy planning brain wants to know.

This is my technology. Oh, a giant calendar.

Yes. With Post-It. Amazing. So we write out what we need, what we have to do, and we tried out a new thing actually this month, which was we went to the pub for coffee and um, and we sat down and we wrote down all the emails and stuff that needed to go out and what needed to be done when, between now and Christmas we and Lucy did it.

And, um, you write it all on Post-It notes, and then we just worked out which day we needed to do it on to make it work. And then you can move it all around. OMG. This is like planning porn for me. Oh, do you love it? I love it. It's, um, it worked beautifully. And then at the top I wrote down everything that, like, all the new website banners that we needed to do.

And then when we needed to send wholesale emails out, when we needed to send retail emails out. And then in my diary, again, I carry around a massive a four diary. Um, I write down at the bottom of each day. I try and plan a bit in advance what I'm gonna do. [00:08:00] For my social media and stuff each day. So I just scribble it at the bottom and then if for something for the week, I stick it in the notes.

So it is all basic. It is all planned out. I tried using that. Trello. Yeah. Bit of Trello, but I just couldn't, I don't know. It's digital. I like, I like to be able to sort of see it all and rub it out and scribble it down. This is it. Yeah. I really, so I use Trello and have a love hate relationship with it 'cause it's amazing Uhhuh, but I feel like.

I do kind of wish, part of me wishes everybody was in the same room, so we could just have whiteboards and paper. But because my assistant is remote, we've never actually met her in real life. I've only spoken on the phone once, but we email like every day Uhhuh. Um, so we do everything on Trello and it just means everything's in one place.

And yeah, but I don't really look at it. It's just for them to look at. I think that's brilliant. I think I will, um, Anika's maybe wanting to do a wee bit more from home 'cause she can I think we'll end up using something like that. But currently it's Post-it notes, highlighters and by rows. So pleasing.

Love it. And I'm so [00:09:00] pleased because I managed to find Post-it notes with the, the exact same size as a square in my calendar. Yes. So good. And I think also the nice thing about a post-it note or a calendar like that is it stops you cramming too much in, doesn't it? 'cause it's like one post-it note is the day, isn't it?

That is very true actually. Very true. I've just finished a book, a ju I think I'm have to tell you a Julia Donaldson one, which has been well, it's lovely and it's beautiful, but it's pushed me to my absolute creative limits because it's got people in it and traditionally.

I hate drawing people traditionally. I was gonna say, you don't really, it's always animals in your books, isn't it? Not anymore, no. It's, it's a little girl, uh, called Susanna, very sensible name. And it's, yeah, it's called the Magic Feather, and she talks to lots and lots of birds. I think I drew about 4,000 birds for it, and it took up, took the time of doing two of my normal books.

So I usually manage one and a half a year, like a full one and a bit of the next one. But the, that's just nearly, nearly finished me [00:10:00] off. It was so much detail, but the publishers have been so nice about it 'cause I think they feel quite bad. 'cause I mean, you'll see it in a few, few weeks, few months.

It's crazy detail. Bustling, full birds flying about vignettes, all the rest of it. So there came a point, I think in July where I was like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get this finished to do my front foot book. I just need to accept that. And it's one of those things frustrating. You've gotta make sacrifices, but I can't wait to see it.

What's it called? Are you allowed to tell us? I am. It's called the Magic Feather. The French said to me years and years ago, why do you hate drawing people? Just think of them as little animals, and I kind of couldn't do it. And then this one came and Julia. I'm, I'm very close to Julia.

I've known her for years and years, and she was like, I've done you with, um, with people. And I was like, oh, Julia. Julia, why? And she said, well, just give it a go. You just this basic, you just never know. You just never know and you do like a challenge. It's like, okay, well, I can't say no because she's been so lovely about it.

I'll just, I'll just dive in the drawing going. Little animal. And it kind of worked. [00:11:00] That's cool. So it's, it's not a human, it's a tiny animal that just happens to look a bit like a human. Yeah. With a bit of skin. But loads of hair. That's how, that's a good way. Hairy people. Yeah, because I love drawing whiskers.

I think you can get away with so much when you're drawing animals. If you add some brilliant whiskers. That's something I love about your work. All the textures and the hair and the fluff. It's always chef kiss. Oh, thank you. I love doing that bit. It's really fun. It's really fun. How, how did you first meet Julia?

Was it working together? I think you've just known her from earlier books. I first met her, well, they've got a flat in Edinburgh. And so we were at the book festival one night and we sat and had a cup of tea and I just really liked it. We both published by Macmillan, so in the days, the good old days, about 15 years ago, maybe more, whether you used to have publishing Christmas parties and dos and stuff like that.

We just got on and I got on really well with her husband, Malcolm. He was just a lovely, lovely man. I've got quite a good story about that actually. Um, which still makes me laugh even now. And she asked me to do a book for her. Many, many years ago, I won't say the title of it, it's done really [00:12:00] well and I could kick myself, but I just had Finn, my oldest son, and I was in a really bad place and it got people in it again, and I was like, I just can't accept a challenge.

I can't, I'm struggling with this new motherhood. Finn was a really, really difficult baby up until he was about three. Just I. I can't even remember a lot of it. It was just awful. And I was trying to keep my career going and didn't find it easy at all, so I had to turn it down. Anyway, I still saw Julia quite a lot and I was really worried that I'd upset her 'cause I'd never actually directly said to her, I can't do it.

But we still we'd often beat the same meals and we'd sit next to each other and chat. We just get, she's just lovely and we just got on. Anyway, she invited me around to hers. Just as a friend, friend, and I remember I was sitting feeding Sandy and she came over and she said, why did you never do that book for me?

What happened? Do you not like illustrating for other people? And I said, oh, I thought you'd have been told. I was basically having, I just had Finn, I was having a breakdown and I just couldn't do it. I'd got [00:13:00] really bad postal depression. I really regret it. And she was like, oh, I did wonder. I did wonder.

Leave it with me. And then about six months later, she came and said, I've got the go away bird. Would you like to have a look at it? Yes, yes, yes. And Boston was mid illustrating it. This is quite a good story. We were meant to go out for dinner one night, 'cause whenever they were in Edinburgh, we'd go out for tea.

'cause they really close to Julia, Malcolm and my husband as well. And they were, they're just lovely people. And, uh. I phone welcome. And I said, I'm really, really sorry. This sounds ridiculous. 'cause Julia's partially deaf. I don't milk, I've got blocked ears. I can't hear anything, which I know sounds ridiculous, but I feel awful.It's all echoing. I feel dreadful. And he went, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No trouble at all. No trouble at all. We'll cancel it. That'd be, that's awful. And there's don't worry about it. And I was like, thanks for being so sympathetic, because it sounds like the, the most. Pathetic excuse. Anyway, about 10 minutes later there's a knock on my door and I open the door and there's their SCO pulled up on two wheels outside my front door.

I was like, welcome, whatcha doing here? And he went boil kettle. What? Told he, have you got any cotton buds? And I was like, well, [00:14:00] yes, but what's going on? He was like, I'll come to fix your ears. Because he was a doctor. I was like, this is a bit above and beyond. And he was like, no, go into the living room.I'll get a chair. And he grabbed a chair, we got the boiled water, we let it cool for a minute, and he cleared out my ears for me. And I was like, thanks Malcolm. And he went, Cheerio and left. Did it? Did it work? Did he actually fix your ears? Absolutely fixed it. But he did say, don't you? Ever do that to yourself.

I've been a doctor for like 30 years. I know how to do this. Don't ever put these things near your ears. I was like, oh, we, well, intrigued, bonded, now friend for life. They do say you're not supposed to put anything smaller than your elbow in your ears. We reiterated that. Yeah, but you fixed it. And I was like, well, we can go out for dinner now.

And he's like, yeah, I'm better. It's fine. It's fine. So anyway. Oh God, that's nine in the public domain, isn't it? Got ears cleansed. It's a bit gross. But anyway, so that's how we ended up working together. Not through the air thing. Through. Yeah, because my husband cleaned your ears and her friends were like, maybe you maybe wanna edit though afterwards.[00:15:00]

Definitely. That's so nice to know. It's funny 'cause with people where you've heard the name a lot and you've seen the books everywhere and you. You can sort of put people on a pedestal and imagine them not as real people almost, or you forget about them being real people. Sometimes. So it's nice to hear that the normal, yeah, no, it's really funny because we'd obviously do signings together and I've now witnessed pure starstruck ness, which people don't get around me, but sometimes, 'cause I'll sign the book first and they're just staring at Julia and then they go really peculiar when they talk to her.

And I like, I laugh about it. I'm like, Julia, they got the thing. And she's like, oh yes. And uh, some people think that she's, I get really cross 'cause some people are like, well she didn't really talk to me. I'm like, no, she can't hear if there's loads of noise in the background she can't hear. But um, yeah, people do get very starstruck, which I find quite funny 'cause I know it very differently to that.

So don't get that at all. But it's really funny to witness people literally drop their jaw.

​

[00:16:00] , we got Jason Donovan to do the, one of the Julia Donaldson ones. He's funny. Took the, and they were Australian birds.

And my editor phoned me and she was so excited. She was like, we've got Jason Donovan to do the audio book. But nineties, oh my God. Amazing. Scott from Neighbors. I'm in love. It's so, so excited. And then Julia found and she went, have you. I said, oh, can you get a photo of him with the book? And she phone me.She said, I've got real disappointment for you. He'd cycled to the recording studio and he didn't want a photo taken 'cause he'd got a helmet her and was a bit sweaty. Like it wasn't for sharing. I just wanted to see it. Personal gratification. Then, um, Julia and she said, have you heard it? It sounds like he can't really be bothered.

And I listened to the audio book and I was like, oh, the intonations are just, he's sort of, he's read it but not acted it. God. Jason, Jason, Jason, and in the book the Bowerbird Bird meets the love of his [00:17:00] life at the end of the book. And I was like, we have to get Kylie Gue. There was only three words.

She has to do this. She really has to. So, um, the publishers were like, not a chance. What, what opportunity? So I dmd Jason and he never replied. So Same. I thought you were gonna say that. You dmd Kayleigh, right? Kaleigh Powell. I didn't accept dm. I tried. Oh, you tried to. Amazing. I love that. It would've been so good.

It would've been perfect. Yeah. Jason and Kylie Lovebirds. Oh no literal. Anyway. My friends do occasionally message me now. It was a few years ago. Have you heard back from Jason yet? Not yet. Well actually, yeah, not yet. You might still reply. You never know. I be pinned by Jason Donovan. Stumped blanked. Harsh.

Gosh. Yeah. Is that something you've done quite a lot in your career then? Are you not shy about I feel like pitching is the wrong word, but like putting your idea, sending your idea to people or approaching people being like, this would be cool because I feel like that's something a lot of [00:18:00] illustrators.

Like myself included, and illustrators inside the good ship talk about, you know, being really scared to, to pitch or they're very worried about submissions, obeying the rules and being like, oh, it's not open. I must wait until the specific window and do all the things correctly. If you sort of ignore those rules or, well, I think if there's a specific submission.

Protocol, like if you've gotta apply to something and fill in a form and send it by a certain date. But generally, if I have an idea, I'll just run with it. I'll get so excited and I'll Yeah, like phone everyone and say, right, we're getting Jace. We're getting Kylie know. I'm messaging her, I'm messaging him.

We're gonna do what's happening. I think she was like, alright Catherine, off you go. So let's see how you get on. You're gonna waste about four hours doing research into who her people are. And then I realized that it's just not gonna happen and I've just wasted four hours. But I found out quite a lot about her.

Yeah, I do need to know kaman org information. Yeah, arrange and all sorts. But things like, I've had an idea for a project recently. My agent's actually quite quite good. [00:19:00] 'cause sometimes I'll phone, I'll be like, right, I have this idea. And she goes, oh, okay. Alright, alright. And writes it down. And then I realized about a week later, it was a rubbish idea and I was a bit embarrassed.

I even shared it, but. Sometimes you just gotta get it out, haven't you? When you don't know it's a bad idea until later. No. I also have one notebook, um, that my husband bought, which really makes me laugh. Sorry, I'm so thirsty. Um, he bought it when we, I can't remember where we were, but it's this sketchbook that says I hate my work on it really makes me laugh and I have to remember not to have it in the back of Zoom conversations.

But, um, I scribbled out. This is where all my mad ideas go, like the things that I think. It is never gonna get anywhere. And if I'm feeling really uninspired or struggling for new character ideas or anything like that, then I, I have bit, a bit of a look through there as well. Genius. It's good. It's good.What do you do? Do you. Oh, it's funny 'cause I used to pitch and have no success and I was like, what is going on? Like this just, it's heartbreaking. It was for live like graphic recording, live event illustration jobs. It's quite different. Yeah. Yeah. So it's quite different. But then. [00:20:00] Once I realized the power of getting my website in a place where clients could look at it and go, huh, this is the right illustrator for us.

Mm. Like the energy is so different when a client stumbles upon my website, finds me and really wants to work with me, versus me coming outta the blue being like, hello, please come and work together. Hundred percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. I even find that with card shops and card wholesale, it's like suppliers, if I approach them, it's a completely different relationship.

Whereas if they found me, they're sort of. More invested. It's weird. Yes. And so it's much easier, isn't it? Like I feel like when somebody wants to work with you anyway, there's no persuading to do. You don't have to woo them, they're just ready. And you just got to be like, oh yeah, I'm available or I'm not.

I wonder how helpful that is though for new illustrators, because you've gotta have the, you've gotta start somewhere as well, so you've gotta have a bit of that catalog to get to that point. But. People ask all the time, don't they? Have you got any tips for new illustrators? And it is, it's so hard when you're setting out the first five years are blooming tough and I guess the dropout rate for people [00:21:00] must be really high.

But if you can get through that and get a bit of bit in your portfolio and learn about SEO and get a few contacts and a few people that you can ask for advice. Yeah, definitely build, it can really help to gamify the rejection thing as well, because I did a 100 rejection challenge and that helped so much.

'cause then it meant, you know, putting myself out there, applying for things in that, especially in that very early time. If somebody said no, I was like, yes, put it on my chart. Oh, getting closer to a hundred. And that really helped you email. Were you applying for the jobs or were you, how, how did you find them?

What? It was a mixture. So I would like see some work in the wild and I was like, I wanna do work like that and then just email a magazine or email a person and be like, can I do this work? Here's my portfolio. Like I wanna do work like that for you. And they would not, not reply, but it was even things like competitions that I saw.

Or you know, like the sculpture trail things. I did an UA Wally in Edinburgh. Oh. And that was 'cause I actually applied for it. They said no. And then a while later they were like, oh, somebody dropped out and you are [00:22:00] next on the list. So you're in. Really? That was really, and I would never have applied for that if I hadn't been doing my game of getting a hundred people to say no.

And I never, ever hit a hundred because it got too busy. I think I got to like 36 nos. But by that time I'd applied for so many different things. I was too busy to take on anything else. So it was, it was magic. That's so impressive. I really like that attitude of actually just, just keep going and just keep putting yourself on there and keep, keep doing it.

I was listening. I love listening to Jim Rohn podcasts. He's so motivational. Oh, don't tell me I haven't. No. Jim Rohn. This is good. It's spelled Jim Rhn, H-R-O-H-N, and been really flat in the morning, which does happen quite a lot 'cause it's so busy and life. Oh, just some days he's just tired and I put him on and he's like, come on.

Failure is the, I've had a really weird year. I moved to studios and those stuff happened and then the book's taken loads longer than I thought it would. And then I had an exhibition that didn't do as well as they usually do, and it was a real, I dunno, [00:23:00] confidence crisis, but you listen to him and the way he talks about failure, failure sounds like about, is actually usually a period of massive learning.

Yes. So in the last year, rather than sort of wallowing it, I've just learnt so much stuff about marketing. I'd sort of neglected my Instagram a bit and then this last couple of months I've been like, right, come on back into it now. Come on. And reengaging and being there and your Instagram is incredible.

Do you have any Instagram tips for illustrators? It's such an interesting platform. Reply to comments if you, I mean, sometimes you can't. Yes. Um, take note of the posts that do really well and do more of that. What else? I post every day. I do a daily drawing every day, but I find that it's quite good because it's like gives you accountability.

People are expecting it. And then if certain things don't do very well, don't, don't worry about that. Just keep it really busy and really honest. And I was, you said something the other day about people sending, oh, well I was listening to your Leone podcast and you said you have some mean messages. I think I don't put that much of my personal self on there, so I don't tend to get the mean messages.

I've had a few but just ignore anybody that doesn't Yeah. Doesn't like his stuff. Just, and keep [00:24:00] plugging away at it doesn't happen overnight. Years. Years and years and years. And there is a good following now, and my followers were going down about this time last year and I was like, oh, well, don't really care.

It started going up again. It's just all fluctuates. And you never really know what's going on behind the scenes. Like sometimes Instagram are deleting bot accounts and stuff like that, that can look like a big dip in followers. I follow the guy who is Adam Mosseri or something. He's like the head of Instagram, and that's actually quite good on a Friday.

He puts a post out if anything's changing on Instagram and that's really valuable. It stops you panicking. 'cause a lot of the time you see these things and it's like, this thing's changing on Instagram. Click this or your account will do this, that and the other. And he'll come on and go as an absolute nonsense.

Don't worry about it. I run it like, yeah. Really don't pun it. Can you think? Oh good. I feel like there's a big thing about like tagging your location and being on maps recently wasn't there and it was like, Instagram knows where you are and then I think he came on and was like, everybody, please calm down.

You can just switch it off. And also it doesn't really show. Anyways, that was a whole thing. What really helped me as well is he said a [00:25:00] few weeks ago or whatever. He said, everybody's really upset. We've changed from squares to rectangles and everyone gets crossed with us with every change. But what you have to remember is that we are a business too, and the world is changing loads, and so we have to keep developing and changing it because it's an active thing.

And I was like, oh yeah, I really like the squares. But I guess if you are the experts and you feel that as an active platform, it needs changing, then okay, that's fine. I just, it being explained, it's like, oh yeah, it is just people running a thing as well trying to make it work. Let's not get so angry about this.

Yeah. People do get so angry when stuff changes as well, don't they? They do and you've just gotta embrace it. And I used to avoid doing software updates and updating the app and stuff 'cause I hate change. But now I just make sure I just automatically do it and then at least you're changing gradually with it.

So there's never this big jolt of loads and loads of things. Even with the latest versions of Photoshop and stuff now, I always just make sure that I keep gradually updating it so that at some point I'm not gonna have the massive Yeah. What happened? I had a, a bad thing. So I've, I bought an iPad in [00:26:00] 2022 when I was pregnant.

Used the iPad, it was, I was like, I'm saving this for when my old iPad dies. Used it for watching pregnancy Pilates videos and then put it away safely and completely lost it. And in the newborn thing I was just like, oh, well the iPad has gone to a better place. I dunno where it is. And we found it this year, like three years later.

But it was such an old iOS version that it wouldn't let me upload. I couldn't like get YouTube. I couldn't do anything, so I had to really like overhaul the whole thing. But it was, I used to be the same. Like, I don't wanna upload or update Uhhuh or anything. Oh, things like as well, phone. I hate getting a new phone, but I've made a promise to myself and haven't done it yet.

But now this is off the end of the paying for the actual phone thing. Just keep getting a, an updated one because you use it so much for work. Use the camera. I use it. For the Instagram, you just keep on top of it. It really is a business tool. Yeah. And I think I'm really tight with business expenses. I wait till things are on the hell, that's legs.

And I need to not do that because actually it makes your life so much easier if you've just got good equipment. [00:27:00] It does. And you, you are worthy of having a good. Business tool to help you take nice photos and do high quality videos and stuff. Actually something that people might, I, when I was at the Printmakers, there was some young, some lovely young people, uh, in the studio next to me who did film and tv, and they were struggling with an old computer and they didn't know, and I don't think a lot of people do know that you can rent from Mac, so you can get a new laptop, but you can pay it off monthly, which is an absolute game changer.

This machine, I think I've paid off now, but. I do so many big image files, which many illustrators do I need A beast of a machine. And I just paid it off monthly and it was fine. Just, I think I did that early days, like got a laptop. So you mean just like paying it off monthly rather than in a loan or Apple financing credit or Apple something or other.

And it just, it was just. I think you can't do it as a business, but it's worth looking into rather than sitting there struggling with an old machine, watching the beach balls spinning around, getting upset because you're gonna lose all your stuff off your hard drive and Photoshop won't work properly.

It's it, it. [00:28:00] Yeah, that's a false economy really, if you can do it. So Beach ball of doom. Yes. I still get this and I think these computers fine. It's fine. It's fine. It brings back those memories. Yeah. I'm always like putting everything into the cloud. I'm like, don't use up my storage. Like get it offloaded.

Yeah. Oh, I think I keep it on my computer and on the cloud and on an external hard drive. Wow. Triple threat. But I dunno if any of it's working. It does things and I think who knows? I don't understand it. I know I pay Apple 6 99 a month for some kind of storage. I presume that's what that is. Yeah, I don't, uh, that's was, I think I paid 99 p for something.I dunno what it is. I've got a few of them. I dunno what they're, yeah. No, I was so curious to hear you, you briefly mentioned like the newborn time and keeping your career going and how, how was that like keeping things going far, juggling, do you know? I'd love to do some kind of voice notes for.[00:29:00]

Illustrator mums in that first year to just reassure them, because for me it was nearly 15 years ago and the inter, you didn't have FaceTime or anything like that, and I felt so isolated and I thought my whole career was gonna go down the pan because my baby was ill. I also had really bad hyperemesis through both my pregnancies, so I was flat on my back for the nine months of being pregnant.

So literally work just stopped overnight and I was. With the first baby Finn. Um, I didn't wanna tell anyone for the first three months because I was pregnant and, and I think people just thought I'd fallen off the face of the earth and the panics that I used to have, it was like, there's new illustrators coming all the time.

No one's gonna be unemploy me anymore. I need to get back to work. I'll take six weeks off when born, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was a nightmare. And then I've got really bad postnatal depression and, I tried to go back to work when he was six weeks old because I just thought it was all gonna fall apart if I wasn't working.

And then so we sort of juggled it [00:30:00] and I kept going with emails and stuff, but I really didn't manage it very well. Now I look back, I think I was only young. I was, I was 28 a baby. I is a baby. At the time I didn't think it was, but now looking back, if only I'd known a bit more, I would've been a bit nicer to myself.

And if only I'd known someone who'd gone through a similar thing or I would've not panicked so much. With Finn, we did put him into full-time nursery when he was about one, and then I went back to working those strict hours. Um, but I was just trying to work around and juggle around him and I just panicked that I just wasn't gonna be able to keep my career.

But with, and, and then we had Sandy five years later and I was like, right, I've done this once. I'm gonna be really nice to myself. I'm gonna tell everyone I'm pregnant from the day I find out I'm pregnant because they, 'cause if I'm ill, this is what I decided. And lo and behold I was ill. And I've just gotta let it go and just have faith in the stars that people are ill [00:31:00] people do take a break.

And my career will be waiting for me at the end because I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna smash it again after I've had some time with him and I'm gonna be, and he wasn't an ill baby as well, which made it much better. I've always used, I've always worked full time when, when they've been big enough to work full time.

When Sandy was little, I had a sort of. A child minder that came to the house so that they would come maybe three days a week from when he was quite little and I could catch up on emails and just keep the plates spinning and keep in touch with people. Yeah. Um, and he was around so the mom guilt wasn't so bad.Went to nursery two days a week. And then we had Fiona who came in a couple of days a week and it was expensive. And I remember paying her at the end of the week and thinking, I'm paying a farm like more than I've earned this week, but I'm keeping it going. And everything's gonna be fine. And then he did full-time nursery.

Um, and then when they went to school, they've always done afterschool club as well. So I've always kept quite strict working hours, but it meant that when I have time off and I get home, I am there. [00:32:00] Yes. So you can fully transition into like home mode. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you say that, but you know what it's like and you're not even easier, fully in work mode when you've got a baby.

'cause the phone rings or they're off with a cold or, oh. And then COVID happened in the middle of all of it. With Sandy. I remember trying to do a book bouncing a 3-year-old on my knee. I won't say which book it is, but I've never really liked that book. And actually I got royalties statement the other day and it's the only one that hasn't earned out.

Yeah, I, I was doing literally two things at once, so. Wow. It's really, really hard and it's something as women, I dunno, we need to message me. If you're struggling and you're a new mom, you're an illustrator, I'll talk to you 'cause I'll pep talk you through it. 'cause I just feel like we bit more support around the panic.

How have you found it? Yeah, it's a tricky one 'cause I feel like people, I found, people told me so many horror stories when I was pregnant about like how, you know, they were never able, I think I had a lot of fear about like, I'm not gonna be able to work, [00:33:00] it's gonna take up all my time. So that it was almost.

Our daughter started nursery full-time, like pretty much full-time when she was one as well. Yeah. Yeah. But I felt really bad. I didn't, felt like it was too much time and then took it back to less hours, but then wasn't getting enough work done. I didn't forgotten that. Yes. And I was just like, how am I supposed to like, get work done but also see my child?

Ah. Um, and she's just started. Big go nursery, like at school, so it's school hours and it's five days a week, whereas before it was just three. Mm-hmm. Was like four and a half days a week and that's made such a big difference. I think just having daily, like having the all five days. It's helped a lot, but I do feel like I drop loads of balls.

I don't manage to keep up with everything. You don't, but it does come back. Yeah. And it gets easier and easier. Oh my God. Well, I've just said to you like my 14 year old's here doing little bits of work for me. It really does get easier and easier, and I think I sort of have this doom feeling that that was it.

It was over. I didn't really believe that it would get. It's easier and that you'd actually [00:34:00] get your life back in a few years, not your life back. It's changed for the better, but you find a new normal and it's fine. Everything's fine. It all works out absolutely fine. Having a baby is bloody hard. I said to Colin one day, my husband, I was like, oh my God.

It's like hand rearing kittens or something. 'cause my friend is her s and I remember she was up through the night and he was like. Yes. You're wearing a human like that. We're Yeah, too shit. And the tiredness and the anxiety and, oh, it's just, yeah. I loved it when they started school though. And I do still get, oh, actually going back.

We went past Sunday's nursery the other day and I was like, do you remember going there? And he went, yeah. I said, did you ever think that you were there too much because you were there like full time? This girl? He was like, no, I loved it. I made some of my best friends, had a massive garden and loads of Lego.

Amazing. What more could you want? I know, absolutely brilliant. And he said, I'm good snacks. Oh yeah. I mean that's the thing. I think we'll worry so much like this is [00:35:00] terrible, but they're actually having an amazing time doing cool activities, baking and stuff, and I'm like, I wouldn't really be doing that at home.'cause that sounds stressful. Absolutely not. They're really busy and I did, when they were both at nursery, I'd go in and read to them sometimes and you sort of do as a bit of an insight just to have a, have a nice. Peek around what actually goes on, and they're having a lovely time with their pals. It's really cute.

The little interactions between one another and the, yeah, like you're saying, like the stuff that they do, like they had a mud pit. I mean, I'd have never, and, uh, playing with water and it's all, and they had like this toolkit and I remember they've got nails and hammers and, and all this stuff that I'd.I'm not done with 'em. They was brilliant. I really enjoyed it. You're crying like don't hammer your finger. Oh, no. No. So hats off to, I don't really have any judgment numbers as well. My, my mom says, oh, so and so has done, daughter's done this with the baby or, so they've put them in nursery from this, that, and the other, from two young and blah, blah, blah.

And I think, I have no judgment any mum got through. Like any of it is an absolute legend and a superstar just to give yourself a pat on the back because it's blooming tough, blooming rewarding, but I just think women are amazing and men as well. There's some amazing, amazing dads out there, but those, [00:36:00] that period of times a bit of a struggle.

It is. But it does get better and better, and I think that's a good message.Quickly. It's easier. Yeah. Yeah. But you blink and you're like, oh, okay. Taller than me. He's two taller than me.I keep looking at him. Even this morning when we were opening up and he was with me, I. I got teenager absolutely no sense. He just looked at me and he was like, alright mom, we good?Oh, that's so good. On closing, do you have any final, I'm put you on the spot here. Do you have any final messages or a message to leave people with as we close this episode? Apart from that motherhood bit, we've kind of turned it into a bit of a episode. Do you mean like. In terms of illustration career or because I'm aware of what your audience is.Yeah. Illustration, career people. It's not, it doesn't happen overnight. You really have to put the hours in. You have to be really dedicated and don't believe everything that you see on Instagram as well, where all these people are high flying and sail through and getting all these wonderful projects and you always think, oh God, they're doing so well.

And I'm, oh, it's, uh, it's, don't believe everything that you see. Everybody's struggling. If you see people that are doing really, really well, again, it hasn't happened overnight. There's probably 20 years of experience, rejection anxiety, and all the rest of it in the background. It's all a bit of a facade 'cause you're not on your own if you're battling with that drawing or.

I'm trying to get that next job or whatever. The other thing that I would say is when I do courses and stuff, people say, oh, your drawings, oh, they talk about my drawings or whatever. And [00:37:00] I'll say, very often I'll start a drawing and I'll think this is absolutely rubbish. I'm just gonna change bits of paper and it's awful, but I just always keep going 'cause it.If it's looking awful, I will work on this until I'm happy with it. I am not gonna stop, even if it takes three times. This is sheer dog of determination, three times longer than I thought it was going to. I will make this work and I will make it good. So just don't give up if it's what you wanna do, if it's a project that you wanna finish.

Get on with it. Don't give up. If it goes a bit wrong, just changes direction. These, the illustrations are like living things. They develop and they move, and they have good days and bad days, so just try and think positive and stay motivated. Nobody said it was easy, but it is loving good when it goes well.

Yes. That's so good. Well, thank you so much, Catherine. I will put all of your details in the show notes so people can come and find you and follow you on Instagram, see your shopper, all the things. And yeah, it's so nice to talk to you and yeah, hope people get something out of this. And I do mean that if there's any moms that are having bad days who write [00:38:00] illustrators with babies that think, oh, it's gonna get better, please do message me.