Anna Mac on finding her creative voice (after years designing for retail)

Permission to play can change EVERYTHING!

This week we’re chatting to Anna Mac - artist, printmaker, illustrator, product designer, sleep counsellor, mum of twins, and hardcore Good Shipper who's been sailing with us since 2020.

In this episode, we talk about scenic creative routes, why permission to play can change everything, creative voice vs paying the bills, and why sometimes felting a jumper is juuuust what your brain needs.

Rough timestamps for our timestamp-fans:

00:00 – Intro + course news
01:00 – Anna’s background: fine art, printmaking + retail product design
03:00 – Social work → creative rediscovery
05:00 – Sweden influence + graphic print inspiration
06:00 – Lockdown pivot + 100 day project energy
07:00 – Finding creative voice even when you’re already “successful”
09:00 – Taste is everywhere (home, clothes, environment)
11:00 – Confidence, feedback and trusting your own eye
13:00 – Agent life + picture book submissions
14:00 – Balancing creativity, family life and part-time sleep counselling
16:00 – Creative hobbies that are just for you
17:00 – Creativity as a way of being (Rick Rubin chat)
19:00 – Personal manifestos vs New Year’s resolutions
21:00 – Listening to your gut when making work
23:00 – Journalling + morning pages (ish, not perfectly)
25:00 – Visual diaries and recording life through drawing
27:00 – Stories we tell ourselves about who gets to be creative
28:00 – Rejection collections + persistence mindset
30:00 – Rejection rituals (tea, brownie, gallery trip recommended)
31:00 – Creative voice is never “finished”
32:00 – Lifetime access + coming back to learning later in life

Stuff mentioned:

Anna's website - www.annamacstudio.com 

Anna's Instagram - @annamacstudio

Find Your Creative Voice: Fly Your Freak Flag course
The Artist’s Way – Julia Cameron
The Creative Act – Rick Rubin

Good Ship Illustration Monthly Numbers Tracker (freebie) - To help you keep on top of your monthly numbers and track progress in your creative career.

Byeeee for now!
x The Good Ship Illustration (Helen, Katie & Tania)

Anna is an illustrator who works from her home studio in Perthshire, Scotland.
She has a background in fine art and printmaking and spent several years creating design-led product collections for the retail market.  Client commissions included heritage retailers and international buyers, and her work has sold in shops and galleries in the UK and abroad.
Anna combines printmaking techniques, drawing and collage to produce her work, with a focus on children’s illustration.  Anna also loves to work with lino, and she uses this approach to create prints and book covers.

Come and say hello!

✏️ @thegoodshipillustration
🌏 www.thegoodshipillustration.com

p.s. We love answering your illustration questions. Click here to submit your question for The Good Ship Illustration Podcast 🎙

Transcript

Feb 3 - Anna Mac
===

​[00:00:00] 

Today we're interviewing a good shipper, Anna Mac. And Anna is an illustrator who works from her home studio in Perth, Shere, Scotland. She has a background in fine art and printmaking and spent several years creating design-led product collections for the retail market. I will grill her about that in this interview for you.

Client commissions included heritage retailers and international buyers and our workers sold in shops and galleries in the UK and abroad. Anna combines printmaking techniques, drawing and collage to produce her work with a focus on children's illustration. She loves to work with Lionel, and she uses this approach to create prints and book covers.

All the links to [00:01:00] Anna's work. If you wanna see more, are in the show notes. And also just wanted to let you know that our. flagship course, our first ever course that we made, we're about to launch a new shiny live round. There's gonna be eight months of live calls, one live call per month. The 19th of February is our first live call, so if you jump in before then you can come along to that live call, but there will be one a month after that. Be lovely to see you there. Okay. On with the interview.

Katie: I'm so looking forward to this chat. ~We are. ~I feel like I know you a bit from the good ship. I've seen your face. ~I know ~you've been at Art Club and you've popped up here and there, but it's so good. If you could introduce yourself for listeners who are new to you and your work.

Anna: ~Sure. ~So I am an artist, printmaker illustrator. I call myself a writer, ~although, yeah. ~But I'm based ~in Persia ~in Scotland. So I'm in a town that's about an hour from Edinburgh and Glasgow. And I work for my home studio and I have two kids twins. Are teenagers.

And yeah, [00:02:00] so just busy. And that's me, I think.

Katie: Brilliant. So the main reason that I dragged you on to the podcast here today was to talk about finding your creative voice and flying your freak flag.

Anna: Yeah.

Katie: Because I put a shout out and you are one of the brave people that raised ~your hands. ~Your hand. And I was like, yes. Would you speak to Anna?

~So maybe that's a good place to start. ~How has it been for you finding your creative voice? What's that journey been like? What's ~your career, ~your creative career look like so far?

Anna: Okay I took the scenic route, if I'm honest. And so basically, as many people say, like loved, loved art was into drawing. And that is, from young age. But my mom was an art teacher. And then, I had it in my head like, she's the artist. So I can't be an art, do you ~know?~

~I don't ~know. It just didn't occur to me that I could be an artist too. And I think that if someone had said to me go to art school, I would've absolutely jumped a chance. But it didn't quite happen. And so I ended up going [00:03:00] and studying social work and becoming a social worker and working with children, families, and things like that.

Then I like. Opportunity to dig into my creativity. And so I kinda did some online courses and things like that back then. And just felt like there was no way back, I was just totally in love with it all ~and, for, but I have to say, it was like, ~although I was like doing things and trying to find my, and things like that, I was also maybe kinda moving.

I was doing landscapes and things like that and wasn't really sure of direction. Anyway, came back to Scotland. Studied printmaking in Edinburg and totally loved that and started to create products collections. So designing for products for the retail market. And so I did that for quite a long time.

Katie: I'd love to know what kind of products were you designing [00:04:00] for Retail market. What does that involve?

Anna: Yeah, so it was things like, homewares and textiles ~and,~

Katie: So was it like surface pattern stuff or was it more

Anna: Yeah. So I was doing some kind of repeat patterns and then I was creating characters. A lot of it ~was ~still had a kinda storytelling. All of my work up to that point had a kinda storytelling sort of element to it.

~I was, but I wasn't connecting the dots in terms of that. But yeah, ~I had different collections and it was for the Scottish market in the main, and I felt quite strongly that there was quite a strong kind of twee vibe to a lot of products and things like that within Scotland. And so I was quite keen on creating something that was a little bit more edgy or a little bit, more design.

That's what I would call it's design. And

Katie: I bet you were ~heavily ~influenced.

Anna: and things as well.

Katie: Yeah. Did you find it like quite a heavy influence from Sweden, from your time living there? Because I know their stuff's a bit more graphic and cool ~and.~

Anna: ~Do you know? Absolutely. ~Like I, when I was in Sweden, I absolutely fell in love [00:05:00] with the sort of mid-century ceramics. Textiles, all of that. And Lisa Larson, ~who, I dunno, some people will know the name of ~who created like amazing textile kind of characters. ~Wa there, ~there were a lot of characters within those designs and a lot of simple lines and very kinda bold graphic kinda look as well.

~Yeah. ~Yeah. So that was hugely inspiring to me and I think that's why I love the printmaking so much as well. And I worked in mainly line print. So it was really bold graphic lines that I would work in.

Katie: That's so cool. And I'm sorry I got excited and interrupted you, but you said you got to 2020 and lockdown changed everything, ~so yeah. ~What happened then?

Anna: It did. So I was having orders from a lot places ~and things like that, ~because I say I'd established myself working, going to trade shows ~and different things like that. ~And then lockdown, obviously all the orders tended to dry up because all the retailers were realizing what was happening.

~And ~at the same time, ~I, ~my children ~were they ~were in primary school and they were needing [00:06:00] help their homework and things like that. And so I was helping them and I was connecting how much I'd fallen in love with not just art, but I used to love writing as well. And so those two things, and I started thinking about picture books as a sort of like a direction. I think at the same time I was still not totally sure of my voice and I'd started to go more onto Instagram and I think I did a hundred day project, which is was such a brilliant thing to just get me creating every day and not overthinking things. And I think that at that same time I must have connected with yourselves with the art club. ~That, ~that was brilliant as well. And then heard about fly your Freak flag and I was just like, no, that is absolutely perfect for me. I was just really excited at the prospect of doing something where you have a bit of space to really explore your own voice, 

Katie: yeah. That's so [00:07:00] good to hear. And I think it's extra fascinating when somebody's. Had ~a creative career, has ~a creative career and has had success and is creating work, but so many people in that position still don't feel like they've really found their voice, like they've maybe not had space.

And I think that can come with orders and clients and customers. If something's working, you just kinda get stuck in that, okay, this is working. Carry on doing it. I don't wanna change anything or walk the boat.

Anna: Yeah. ~Yeah, no, ~I totally agree with that. I think that ~and ~often it can also be a focus on the outcome. You're focused on outcome you're focused on making money. And of course, the reality is that we all need to do that. But at the same time, I think. It is important to allow space for exploration and, play as well.

Katie: Yeah, playing is like such a huge part of it, isn't it? ~I, ~when we first made the fly, find your creative voice, fly your freak flag course. Creating the permission slip to play was something we got so excited about. So yeah. How has ~that, what's ~that been like for you? What's that looked like?

Anna: Yeah. ~Do you know, ~I think that [00:08:00] whole thing of going back to almost childhood and feeling like my mom was the artist and it couldn't be for me, there was also that element of ~actually ~permission to just be able to just explore this and really, like it was a really big turning point for me, honestly.

Yeah, I really kinda got stuck into the course and just remember that initial bit of the giving myself permission and giving myself the space to just yeah. Play with materials, explore, experiment, and then try and figure out a way back from that as well.

So like you're doing all of those things, but then ~how is it, what is it what still, ~what is your voice? And I think it's that sort of also learning to listen to what's exciting to you. And I think that the course really touched on that quite a bit as well of leaning into your taste.

What we were saying before about being in Sweden, my house was full of things that I had chosen and totally love. But hadn't even connected [00:09:00] the dots that was. That's me. That's who I am ~to know. ~So funny that I never connected that up really, but it was just like, again, another sort of like penny drop moment to be able to like just look about my own environment that I had created in terms of like how I live and where I live and what I surround myself with,

Katie: Yeah, and that's the thing, isn't it? I think we're so close to our own work and we're so close to our own house and we in our own environment, we don't even see. That ~are ~our creativity's like leaking out into it. And we're not recording a video sadly, but I will tell you listener behind Anna is a gorgeous like teal background and there's some amazing graphic that kinda looks a little bit Swedish, that picture on your wall like the red dude, ~he's~

Anna: Yeah, ~no, ~that's a printmaker that I discovered on Instagram and it's called Boogie Nights. And yeah it's rather fabulous.

Katie: and there's like a little splash of yellow on the wall as well, so I can see even just from this chat, like [00:10:00] your creative voice and your freak flag, I should be able to say that by now. It's been six years. Your freak flag is flapping regardless whether you like it or not. It's brilliant.

Anna: Oh do you know, I think it is that it is about learning to live it. And but also connecting those bits up. And as I say, I wasn't really connecting that up. And then when I started to look at what I surround myself with and realizing actually, those ceramics that I love from Sweden and those, that print work that I've chosen to put on my wall or whatever, it's, that's your, that's also, that's your taste.

And ~just learning about. I think and just, ~I think it's just about connecting to yourself, do you know? And I think when you're a quite sensitive person, you can be listening to everybody else and everyone else's voices, and that was a big part of it for me as well. I think that permission to play as well as just your.

~You can often, I don't know, for me anyway ~I would almost be always asking other people, what do you think? And [00:11:00] just feeling a sort of a, not sure of myself. And I think that, ~again, ~the course really put me on that journey to be able to trust myself and develop a critical eye that, I can trust, ~that I can.~

From the beginning, from the blank page to the end without needing somebody else to chip in ~or do you know that kind of thing as well.~

Katie: Yeah, that makes me so happy to hear as well, because ~one of, ~one of our big goals was to encourage people to have confidence in their own work and yeah, portfolio reviews are lovely and brilliant, and if you get somebody's ~at other ~eyeballs on your work at the right time, it can be transformative ~and.~

But, and the power of just having confidence in your own stuff anyway and almost being like, it doesn't matter what you think because I like my work. And that's really all that matters because other people's perspectives are so subjective, isn't it? Like I've had portfolio reviews where the feedback was, use Les Brown and that is helpful, but also ~do, I didn't need, ~I didn't need to know that.

I dunno. So it's yeah, it's music to my ears to [00:12:00] hear that's kinda what you got out of it.

Anna: Yeah, absolutely. I think it is subjective and I think, still in the journey that I'm in now, ~you've got to, ~when you're not getting anywhere with competitions and things like that, . It is tough because, am I getting this right?

But I think it's also about learning that ~there isn't, ~it isn't a right and wrong, it is subjective. It is important to keep seeking feedback, but from the right people, so I was asking it from members of my family that didn't really have a Scooby about art at all.

Do you know what I mean? So I think ~it's ~it's important to realize that yes, absolutely. Feedback ~is a, is. ~Is a really important thing in terms of growth and development. And I've definitely sought that out via portfolio reviews. And I was fortunate enough to go to the Cambridge Summer school where I was on the advanced track with Pam and different people giving me amazing feedback and I think it is important to be able to hear that and grow from that.

But yeah, just be careful ~who you. ~Who you're giving the [00:13:00] power to in terms of, that feedback? Yeah.

Katie: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I know it's ~been it have ~been six years now since. Did you take the course in 2020? ~Is~

You must been one of the first ones then. Amazing. So how has life and work and creativity looked since then? What's it been like for you?

Anna: Yeah, I continued to license for products and things like that. And I now have an agent~ the ~and I, because I'm quite focused on children's books, I have continued to write dummies and these are getting kinda submitted and I have had some interest from publishers.

So I'm still on that journey. But I think, doing the PitchBook course was really helpful for that as well. And ~I do think there, ~I do think I would benefit from doing the business course. I haven't actually taken the plunge with that, but I think I need to probably do that as well. But yeah it's also about learning to balance.

I have quite a lot of [00:14:00] responsibilities. I also work as a sleep counselor part-time and you're balancing that kind of family life and older family that maybe need support and things like that as well. It's, ~it is ~about kinda carving out the time as well. Do you know?

Katie: Yeah, you've got life as well. That's the thing is that life does keep happening

Anna: ~yes. ~Yeah. No completely.

Katie: sleep counselor, is that like baby sleep or

Anna: It's, yeah, it's from 18 months up to 18 years supporting families with sleep issues. ~Yeah. Yeah.~

Katie: That's so interesting.

Anna: Which is really good. And actually I developed a sort of visual timetable, for our organization as well, just as a so kids can color in ~their ~the different tiles and things and they can create their own little for bedtime and things like that.

~So yeah. But as, yeah. Yeah. ~

Katie: I love that. ~Yeah. ~And I feel like sleep impacts so much of life as well, ~so it's almost yeah, because.~

Anna: It's so important. ~It's ~

Katie: got newborn babies and things and that [00:15:00] also trying to build their career and find their creative voice and you wanna be like, it's okay, but now is not the best time and there's not a huge rush.

Wait till you're getting better sleep. I know you weren't talking about sleep, but that just reminded me like about

Anna: No, I think completely, and I think we can give ourselves a really hard time and ~we maybe, like ~obviously we're at the beginning of the year and it's about setting the goals and all of that. And ~I think, ~I think sometimes we can be like setting ourselves up to fail as well when we do have a lot of responsibilities and things like that where you feel like this has to be done, ~this, ~and actually sometimes, yeah, sometimes you do just have to go okay, I just need to take the ~foot off the brake, ~foot off the pedal a little bit ~and ~and give myself a break. So like for me this year it is thinking about all the things that I want to do creatively, but also making space even to do creative, personal projects as well.

But creative things aren't actually to do with illustration. I don't know. Like ~I love felting. ~I [00:16:00] love felting. I find it so therapeutic. ~Do you know where you're just Yeah, ~just a needle and like I'll stick some wooly jumpers in the wash and and then felt onto them and stuff.

And I was doing those at Christmas time and I realized, do you know this? I need this. I need something else. That is just something that's not for anything. It's just pure, just. Sitting in front of the felting.

Katie: Yes, absolutely. And that was one of my things 'cause I'm also guilty of, setting lots of goals and taking on too many things and ~getting far to it 'cause I didn't ~saying yes to everything. And ~before ~in December I started knitting again. And that has been so good

because I can listen to the telly.

And or be chatting to somebody or make sure the child's not in the fire, but also be knitting something and having a good time. And then at the end you get a thing. I dunno if you feel that with knitting. Like it feels a little, it takes the productive books, scratches that itch.

'cause I'm making something, [00:17:00] but it's not for money and it's not for everybody. Look what I did, although I did post about it on Instagram, but that's, it's just a really nice thing to have a hobby and it be a little bit creative.

Anna: Yeah. No, I to I totally agree with you. I think it's maybe important to do that. And actually it puts me in mind of~ one of the, ~one of the things that I was listening to recently was Rick Rubin. Do you know the Creative Act?

Katie: Yeah, I've got that book as well.

Anna: I've got it on audio and it's brilliant 'cause it's on audio and I've listened it like several times.

I just absolutely ~love it. I ~love it. What it always reminds me, and it's something I keep forgetting somehow, is again, similar to the message that you guys have put in the fry Fly, not fry fly.

Katie: Freak flag. Something about freak

Anna: Let's just call it freak flag. ~Yeah. ~Yeah. It's a tongue twister, I have to

say. 

Katie: really is.

Anna: But is the sort of being in process piece, ~and. ~I don't know why I forget that as much as I do. It's oh, the outcome, gotta get [00:18:00] there, gotta get there. And you can do that with your Instagram prompts and all the different, deadlines that you can create and competitions that you can create, or, whether it's a commission or whatever it is, where ~you've got those, ~you've got those deadlines and it's out the outcome.

And, he's very much about. Being in process, but also like creativity is about a way of living. It's a way of being, and I think and it makes sense that in your spare time you're doing something that's also has some kind, some kinda creative output as well.

And it also makes sense that you think about what you have in your home or ~you think about ~what you wear because it's all part of the same thing, isn't it?

Katie: Yeah, it's all connected. It's all, even in like the colors that you are drawn to and that you surround yourself with, I love that. Tanya has got a bit in the course about, ~just ~looking in your wardrobe as a starting point. And then it's like there's your pre-made color palette that you didn't even

Anna: Yeah.

Katie: really notice that you were choosing.

But when you look, you say, oh yeah, there's all my favorite [00:19:00] colors. And they keep coming up and again ~and,~

Anna: I know it's like your subconscious mind is actually just doing all the bits. You just have to notice it.

Katie: Yeah. ~Yeah, ~we were talking about Pinterest the other night and I dunno, do you use Pinterest?

Anna: I do. Yeah.

Katie: ~Yeah. ~Because there's something about it, the algorithm I feel like on Pinterest is so good. And when you go ~on that, ~on the like explore page, just when you land there's so many things and you just like, oh, I like all these things so much.

And it's, I think the more you can get that feeling into your real life.

Anna: Yeah,

Katie: Even if it's not your actual work, just the things around you, I feel like your happiness levels go up because you're surrounded by things that just make your brain light up ~and ~

Anna: oh my goodness. Totally. Yeah. ~Yeah, ~I totally agree. In fact, I wrote ~the, ~so instead of writing, New Year's resolutions this year, I wrote myself a sort of personal manifesto

Katie: Oh.

Anna: ~and. ~Decided these are the things that I do, ~what are you, because it, ~because every time I do New Year's resolutions, it's come February you've [00:20:00] forgotten all about them ~or forever.~

But I decided to almost illustrate this personal manifesto where it was just like, I promise ~to ~this is the way I want to live. And ~this, ~these are the things I want to try and do or be ~or do. ~And one of them was about again, like filling your soul up with the things that you love and, art, music, and like pouring all that in.

And then trusting that you're the you as the person, the vessel, that you then your output. Has reflect some of that. Does that make sense?

Katie: A hundred percent. Yeah, I think it's like that's one of the side effects, isn't it? ~Because ~earlier we touched on when you're finding your creative voice, sometimes it's good to separate it from making money 'cause it's a totally separate endeavor. However, one of the side effects of flying your freak flag and finding your creative voice is that the work you get or the work you attract tends to be much more in tune [00:21:00] with the stuff you love doing.

And I wonder, have you experienced that? Have you found that the work you're doing, since you've done some creative voice finding work, does it feel more aligned to what you really wanna do or that you get really excited about?

Anna: I think ~what I'm kinda thinking there ~when you're saying ~that is ~that it's, I think before we were talking about ~the sort of ~learning to trust yourself and that critical eye and things like that. And I think for me it's like now when I create work it's actually listening to your gut and ~like ~really tuning in with what do you, is this exciting?

Am I excited by this? Or, there's times when I start getting a bit flat and a bit bored and ~a bit, ~I can feel a bit resistance, and then I think maybe it's just not going in the direction I want it to go in. ~Maybe I'm, ~maybe that's why I'm feeling like this. And so then it's okay, maybe you just needed to put some red in there and then you're gonna feel happy again.

~Or whatever it's, so ~I think absolutely. I feel like in terms of voice, that I'm much more connected to myself and connected to what I feel [00:22:00] excited about. And I also actually find journaling a really big help with that. Because I am someone that can disconnect a little bit and journaling's a great way of almost ~bringing back, ~bringing it back ~or bringing back to, to, ~to me, rather than shutting out all the other voices that are going on.

Katie: Yeah, that is so important, isn't it? 'cause the world is so noisy and it was noisy anyway, but I feel like with social media, it's extra noisy and as soon as you open your phone, you're just like stepping into a fast stream of other people's thoughts and other people's ideas. It's ~almost ah, ~so you to have that time to not completely close off, but just listen to your own brain and journal and be like, ~what am I ~what do I think about this?

What's going on for me here? It's so powerful.

Anna: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think it's really important. For me it has become like part of my practice to do that, to sort of journal. And ~I've actually, ~I've got this little peg doll from when I was a kid and I keep it in a jar. And part of the thing of my [00:23:00] manifesto was have a team meeting with your peg doll.

And I also made a doll of my younger cell. Does this sound really sad? Now, I made a doll myself as like when I was younger, because again, it was that trying to connect self piece. And so now I have team meetings where I'm journaling and I've got pegged all there and I've got younger Anna and have a bit of a chat, 

Katie: you're trusted advisors, but they're all you.

Anna: exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yeah.

Katie: Fantastic.

Anna: And I actually think journaling. I don't know, what's the book ~that ~that talks about doing your morning pages? Is it Julia Cameron,

Katie: I was gonna ask you Yeah. The artist way, do you do,

Anna: ~yeah, that's it. Yeah. ~Yeah. So I am, I'm not disciplined enough to do every single day. So again, it's one of those things where you let yourself off the hook and go, actually, don't worry about.

Doing it every day, just try and do it consistently. Or when you feel that overwhelm, [00:24:00] like you were talking about, of Instagram overwhelm or feeling stuck, the first thing that I now think about is you just need to go your pen and paper ~and, dull and young Anna ~and sort out. And it does, it actually just really helps.

Katie: It makes such a difference, and I agree oh my goodness. I always feel really good when I manage to do three full pages of free writing in the morning, but I haven't been able to do it since. ~Yes. ~'cause it's so intense and you can like hand cramp after page one and a half and you're like, I can't think of anything else to put in here,

Anna: Yeah, nowadays who's got the focus for three pages? Come on. like I, yeah, I just think it's a really good discipline. And actually another thing from the freak flag that I do on a regular basis is a daily visual diary. And I call it a daily visual diary, but again, I don't give myself a hard time when I don't do it daily.

And, but it's brilliant. It's brilliant way of just like [00:25:00] loosening up or just recording something of your day. And, the sketch booking part for me within the course was really helpful as well, and that kind of came out of it for me that I was just like I'm gonna keep, I've got these the kind of square there's, they're square little sketchbooks and I'll write in them as well, but then I'll either doodle or do whatever, or sketches and stuff.

Just as a way of ~kind of just ~recording I suppose as well.

Katie: It is so nice to be able to flick back and ~you, I dunno if you find this, but ~when I've drawn the day, I remember everything so much better than if I was just trying to remember it with my brain.

Anna: Yeah. And it's so much nicer than just flicking through your phone photos where there's like gazillions of photos. That ~you've got these, ~you've got these books that are kinda recording and yeah, it's just really nice. 'cause my kids weren't even P seven when I started, and now they're like in fourth year.

But I, I've got these books of sketches of them when they were in primary school and things. And [00:26:00] yeah, it's just a really nice sort of record to keep as well. ~But I can't remember why we started talking about that. Sorry.~

Katie: Oh me we're on this meandering journey together and I'm in it, so I'm enjoying it. Yeah, ~I was gonna say, you mentioned that your mom being an artist. So ~you mentioned that your mom was an artist and you felt like, oh, she's the artist, so I can't be, so that's really interesting, ~like just, ~was that one of the biggest permission things for you?

Like just to be yourself and not feel like, oh, I can't do that. That's already taken.

Anna: Yeah. Yeah it really was. Yeah, although I was working creatively, quite a lot before I did the course, I think ~it, I think that, that, ~that piece was really important. And I don't really understand ~what ~why it was that I had that kinda attitude or whatever. But I just thought it's not.

There's not a space for me to also be this sort of creative person or whatever, which, absolutely there's space for everyone to be creative.

Katie: Yeah, and it just shows how much of life is the story that we're telling ourselves about things. And I think so much of the time we haven't even examined the stories that we're telling [00:27:00] ourselves. And it might have taken till getting to the course to be like, wait a minute, in my brain I have this thing where I think it's mom's job to be the artist ~and this, so that's, yeah.~

Brilliant that you uncovered that because I think so many people would just not even look at it and just carry on blindly,

Anna: ~I know. I know. Absolutely. ~I think it is. ~It's yeah, ~the course was brilliant for like lots of penny drops for me, really. And the rejection collection, that is another thing that I took from it that was absolutely amazing. ~Yeah, it's a brilliant, it's a, ~it's about the reframe of things as well, isn't it?

Sort of reframing. Something that's really quite tough to going actually, do you know this is a positive thing? ~This is positive. ~I can I've had a rejection, which means I'm one step closer to Yes. And yeah. ~What? ~That's a bit of a gold nugget really, that.

Katie: Oh, definitely. I could talk about rejection for days. Like I just, I get so enthusiastic about it. 'cause for me, that was one of the biggest game changers in my life. Not just my creative career, ~but just changing it. Yeah. ~From being, it used to be a [00:28:00] horrible, painful thing and it was shameful. And if I've been rejected, it would do anything to avoid rejection.

Do not want to feel like that. It's horrible. Then when I changed it to actually, I'm gonna throw myself in headfirst and get rejected. As many times as I can as a game like that was when things just went crazy. 'cause I didn't, hadn't realized how many things I was blocking myself from even applying to, 'cause I didn't want, even the idea of being rejected and competitions, open briefs, anything.

I was just like no. But then, yeah, just ~to start appli, ~start applying for things.

So many of them became yeses. It was annoying actually. 'cause you can't get the nos because people start being like, oh, alright then.

Anna: Yeah. ~Yeah, ~I genuinely think that it's, you have probably transformed lots of lives with you with this sort of concept because I think being able to yeah, because it's part and parcel of the industry, isn't it, to get rejected. And so if there's a [00:29:00] way of being able to it and not let it stop you from like putting yourself out there I think is really important.

Katie: Yeah.

Anna: Yeah.

Katie: I first heard about, ~so the, like ~the concept ~that I heard about was a, it ~was ~like ~a coach lady years and years ago called Tiffany Han, and she did a project called Raise Your Hand, say Yes. And she had ~like stickiest, like ~stickers that you put on a chart and you'd do a hundred.

And I didn't buy ~or ~anything, but I just remember seeing it and being like, oh, so basically you're just ~like ~celebrating every single time, regardless of what happens just because you tried and then. To take it from there and turn it into a no thank yous thing seemed really helpful. But I've recently seen, there's a girl on Instagram trying to get a thousand rejections and ~she's ~she's won a beauty pageant and she's become an actress and all these crazy things and she's,

Anna: Wow.

Katie: yeah.

I was like, that is really up in the game. Going to a thousand like her

Completely changed.

Anna: Yeah. Good for her. But it does prove the point, doesn't it? That it is about persistence and I think like when you're frightened of [00:30:00] rejection that's the piece where you can't persist. You can't keep going if you're holding yourself back.

Whereas, if you learn to be able to deal with the rejections. Be happy for other people that are succeeding and, have your ritual. 'cause I think that's the other bit for me, is just it does hurt. ~It's, ~but also, if you create some kind of ritual that makes you feel better, so it ties in with the artist.

I think it's the artist date with Julia Cameron's. ~As well, isn't there? Again, ~you can work in some kinda ritual that every time you get rejected ~that ~take yourself off somewhere, which is somewhere lovely. For your cup of tea and your brownie or whatever it is take yourself to a gallery or museum or, and fill back up again. Allow it to sit and allow yourself to feel it and then move on. Yeah,

Katie: Yeah, that's important. ~'cause ~you don't wanna just be like, that's fine, whatever. ~Moving on. ~Let yourself be sad or disappointed if you need to, ~which you probably do. ~And then ~end ~moving on and doing something nice to refill [00:31:00] your cup. That's so wise.

Anna: Yeah. Scream into the pillow. Screaming into the pillow first, ~and.~

Katie: Cry and punch things and then have a nice time.

Oh, I feel like what a good note to end on, ~like filling up your cup and pursuing rejection. ~And this has been so good to kinda hear your journey and your career and just what you've got out of finding your creative voice. And I say that it's never over is it? Like you're always what? Everybody, even if they're not creative, we're always finding our creative voice and discovering ourselves a bit more and a bit more,

Anna: Oh completely. And actually one of the things that I totally loved about the course, and that was one of the things that swung it for me was the lifetime access. Because I do, I still go back with both the courses and dip into them, ~and I think. ~Yeah, because it is, because it's never over.

Like I think you've always got to be for me anyway I feel the need to you're always evolving and growing and learning and you can come back to things with new eyes and things as well yeah.

Katie: Exactly. Yeah. 'cause you even coming back to the same [00:32:00] lesson, you've changed when you come back to it or life's different. So you're always gonna discover new things about yourself ~and your~

Anna: ~Exactly. ~Yeah. Yeah.

Katie: Oh, I love that. ~That's what, ~that's why we did it. We'd all had experiences of signing up to things and then coming back six months or a year later and it being like, your access has expired.

~And just being like,~

Anna: Yeah. Yeah.

Katie: Because it's so frustrating, and I know people do it for good reasons and things, but that was one of our ~good ship ~promises. We were like, lifetime access, because. Life happens. People forget, they get busy. ~It's so slow. ~You join a course and life just goes whoosh. Or you get super busy with client work or whatever, ~every time.~

Anna: yeah. That has happened to me so often and it's just like that, that has been brilliant. ~Yeah. ~You need to revisit things and take things at your own pace and Yeah, absolutely.

Katie: so good. We're starting, we're doing a new thing where there's gonna be eight months of a live call every month in the freak flag course.

So that's starting next Thursday, so you can join in again on that ~if you~

Anna: Oh, fantastic. You guys are workaholics ~really, ~aren't [00:33:00] you?

Katie: ~Secretly. ~No, it's fun. That's another thing actually we should have talked about that with playing when you enjoy yourself.

Anna: And your work is better when you're having fun and when you're loving what you do ~and everything ~as well. Yeah.

Katie: People can feel it in your work when you're having a good time.

Anna: Yeah. I agree. Definitely.

Katie: Oh thank you so much, Anna. ~It's been ~

Anna: ~are~

welcome. It's been my pleasure. I've totally loved chatting to you.

Katie: Yeah, ~and I'm gonna get all your ~

Anna: ~on like mad. ~

Katie: ~here. Nose has been perfect. ~I'm gonna sprinkle all your links in below so people can come and find you and admire your work. But yeah, thank you so much.