Identity + rejection: when your illustration work *is* you 🥲

This week we're dragging ourselves away from our hypothetical gardens and custom urn businesses (lol) to have a proper sofa-chat about the big question: what would you do if you weren't an illustrator?

Specifically: Is your identity too wrapped up in your work? What happens when things go quiet on the work front?

COMMUNITY IS MAGIC. 

That is all. 

Happy listening.

p.s. Salty Dog & Pals (Helen & Katie's new picture book) is now available to pre-order and will be in shops from May. To say thank you, all pre-orders get access to a picture book MASTERCLASS. 

You can sign up for your free picture book masterclass here: 

https://www.thegoodshipillustration.com/salty-dog-and-pals-the-storm-other-stories

It's instant access, so no need to wait.

(And if you've already pre-ordered, thank you!)

Rough timestamps for our timestamp-fans:

00:00 – What would you do if you weren't an illustrator? 

01:00 – Tania's custom urn business plan (trademark pending) 

03:00 – Katie's nanny agency pivot 

05:00 – The famine panic spiral ("day three with no enquiries: my life is over") 

06:00 – Identity and rejection: when your work IS you 

08:00 – Service illustration vs the author-illustrator beast 

10:00 – Picture book advances, royalties + why multiple income streams matter 

12:00 – Artist dates and keeping your ideas fed 

15:00 – The real deal: what makes author-illustration different 

16:00 – Katie & Helen's picture book Salty Dog & Pals (!!!) + the Walker Books Irish jig 

18:00 – Live illustration: when the job you loved becomes just a job 

20:00 – Community as salvation 

22:00 – Good Ship origin story + the Christmas fair era 

24:00 – Isolation is corrosive (and what to do about it) 

25:00 – Finding your people: local groups, Instagram communities + Pencils on Toast

Come and say hello!

✏️ @thegoodshipillustration
🌏 www.thegoodshipillustration.com

p.s. We love answering your illustration questions. Click here to submit your question for The Good Ship Illustration Podcast 🎙

Transcript

March - 2
===

​[00:00:00] 

Helen: Okay. You two, what would you do if you weren't illustrators? Who's going first?

Katie: I vote Tania.

Tania: So Tania, I have thought this a lot, but it's like looking over the edge of a cliff.

I've got no idea what would I do? They don't, they're a bit too interrelated, be a designer or stuff like that. But that's too close. But I did have this brainwave, if it was just about how would you bring the money in because I could faff around the rest of the time, I'd be quite happy now just trying to sort the house out.

'cause I've ignored that for 20 years and obviously the garden, which is where we're all headed in our later

Helen: Oh, that's what I would do.

Tania: do. Yeah, just do the garden. I price [00:01:00] substack.

Helen: It'd make me enough money that I could just do the garden.

Tania: Would you wanna hear my moneymaker? This is a good one and I don't want everyone to start copying this because I'm gonna trademark it, but my beloved neighbor Natasha died a couple of weeks ago and she was like a bet Lynch character and she only wore leopard skin and black and a bit of glitter.

And I said to her daughters about, what had they got planned for? And she said I've managed to find mum a very leopard skin urn. And I couldn't stop thinking about this because it was so Natasha for her ashes to go in a leopard skin urn. And I'm thinking, where did they find that there must be a custom made urn maker out there.

So as there will always be needs for death, I think I'm going into the custom made earn business.

Helen: Brilliant. My

Katie: Have you seen that shop in Edinburgh? Go your Please. And they've got a giant iron brew coffin.

Tania: Oh, I have seen it. It go as you

Katie: yeah, there's a whole industry in brilliant death stuff.

Tania: Yeah. There was a a program on Channel four a couple of weeks ago called the [00:02:00] Fabulous Funeral Home.

And it was in Liverpool and Natasha died in Southport and she came from Southport. And I was wondering if the daughters had gone to this specific place because it was the most fabulous funeral directors you could ever imagine. There was waterfalls in there and butterflies flying around and all sorts of things.

Katie: wow.

Tania: But yeah, coffins and urns.

Helen: I think you are onto something though. 'cause my friend's dad wouldn't let her go to art school 'cause he said you had to go into a trade that humanity needs such as building. 'cause you always need a shelter. Farming. 'cause you always need food or hairdresser

Katie: people will all

Helen: I don't get.

If you, yeah, you need a shelter, you need food. But if the world is about to end hair 

Katie: it's slow down on the list of priorities, isn't it? Yeah.

Tania: What would you do, Katie, if you couldn't do illustration anymore?

Katie: So is this like now with my current brain, just cut out the illustration bit? Yeah. Oh, okay. Like I really enjoy writing and marketing stuff, but then pre this [00:03:00] lifetime, like when I was in my twenties, I really did being a nanny.

So I would just, I could go back to that and that's always in the back of my mind, the caveman bit of your brain that thinks everything's gonna go wrong in a minute. I say, I can be a nanny and people always have children and somebody, so

Helen: It's one of those jobs. Yeah.

Katie: Somebody wants to go to work with a child, guarantee it, I'll be there.

Tania: So you've got childbirth and death as our main, and Helen's just in the corner writing about stuff on her substack. What would you write

Helen: and write, just the boring stuff like I do now.

Katie: I love it. And Jillian, we met a bajillion o Omar and she was saying she loves it as well, even though talking about house renovations.

Helen: Yeah just the dull stuff that we all do every day. I really, I'm just so nosy. So I love reading about that and I like writing about that. I would do the garden, I would make flags or so sewing of some sort, like protest flags.

Maybe do more protesting with my flags.

Tania: I would like to do that. Do a bit more activism [00:04:00] so I could keep the show on the road with the custom earns and then I could just devote myself entirely to activism.

Katie: Yeah,

Tania: 'cause it's always a work's always a get out isn't it? I can't go on that much 'cause I'm too busy.

Like illustrator's lives basically ha hang around dropping everything because you get offered a job. I don't just think the last 30 years were like that. Always working at weekends and taking on as much as you could, undercharging and then doing too much work and saying no to people that you couldn't come out and see them after all.

So now I think the idea of the earns would keep me in money and I can just go out the whole time, not sit in front of the computer.

Katie: Actually, you've got a point there. 'cause the babysitting is quite a time suck. So maybe I would set up a babysitting agency, like in any agency and then I can. Not do the babysitting. That's

Tania: the bit you liked was the babysitting, wasn't it?

Katie: that's true. I dunno, you'd

Helen: be good at setting up an agency though, 'cause you're really good at marketing and that kind of thing.

Katie: I'll do that and then I'll just take on the really nice children, like [00:05:00] posh families with one child and a beach house and my job is to take them to the beach house and

Helen: three

Katie: hours and then go home.

Helen: But

Tania: when you think about this, don't you, when it becomes famine time in, in your job and you don't hear anything for days or you've put something out there that you thought would bring interest on social media and nothing happens. What do you think when there's no work about, do you care?

Katie: Oh yeah, I think every illustrator cares about that, don't they? I saw a thing the other day and it was like one day with no inquiries. Oh, I can have a little rest two days with no inquiries. Maybe I'll clear out the shed three days with no inquiries.

Oh, like it's time to retrain. What am I done? I'm a bad illustrator. I'm about, and I definitely feel that.

Tania: that

Katie: I feel like I, I should be wise enough. It's annoying 'cause this part of my brain is like, it's fine. You're gonna be fine. And then the other part of me is no,

Helen: no,

Katie: my life is over. So

Helen: it's that I'm a bad illustrator. I'm a bad illustrator voice. That's interesting, isn't it? 'cause this is how your identity is linked to your job. So [00:06:00] especially as an illustrator, it's quite rare how our job is so integral to who we are.

Like good illustrators use their life in their work all the time. It's really integral. So how do you cope with a rejection? Like it's, the work was rejected, but it's very easy to tip that into I was rejected.

Katie: Yeah.

Tania: but I think actors must feel the same as well.

Oh yeah. Because you're putting all that life experience into carrying a character over. So it is a, it would be a rejection of you. And they're always going for castings and trying things out and illustrators are constantly pitching for jobs or putting themselves on naked and on show saying, please hire me.

It's quite a vulnerable position to be in the whole time. So when people are talking about going for interviews for full-time jobs and they get upset after about, you say four or five rejections in the first month, you're like, come on, try being an illustrator for a couple of months. You'll be fine.

Once you go back to a salaried interviews, there'll be a dole because they're not that easy. [00:07:00] You do have to sit and talk with people. We don't have to talk. It's a light touch exchange, isn't it? Someone calls you up or they ignore you. As simple as that, but we are constantly trying to connect with different clients and publishers, even if it's not quite as painful as having an actual interview.

Helen: Then there's the opposite end of the spectrum where you've just got so much work, you've barely got any life, all you're doing is working and it's like working out that balance. It's so hard, isn't it?

Tania: it?

Katie: And then that thing where you're having a good time, work's really busy, you get a lot of done, but you don't do any marketing.

So then when the work finishes, it stops and you're like, oh,

Tania: yeah,

Katie: where are all my clients? Haven't done anything.

Tania: And sometimes when I mean I, again, the way the three of us work, it's completely different. So with you, Katie, if there's always new jobs coming through the whole time, so you notice the silence.

If I'm working on a map with. I dunno. A charity or a castle or something like that. It's quite a long-term relationship, but not as long as [00:08:00] Helen's. So a, a gap that's, as long as the job took doesn't bother me. So if the job took three months and I don't hear anything from another client for two months, I'm like, nowadays I think, oh, that's quite nice actually.

Katie: God. I think I'd be like sent away by that point.

Tania: You'd be free two months silence. Would you be just done for

Helen: trying to give me work as often as you do, I would be in a complete spin.

It would be a nightmare. I'd be like getting wooden batons and hammering them over my door and snipping my phone. It'd be just terrible.

Tania: I get that exhaustion of being exposed to so many different clients and having to quickly build relationships with 'em. I know you've automated it a lot, which is probably the only way it makes sense because if you are onboarding them every time, talking them through things, educating them and building trust every three times a week.

That would just be too much for me.

Katie: Yeah. I think I've got accustomed to that level, so like when it does slow down because I'm in there go. What's happening today? When it slows down, I'm like, [00:09:00] what's happened? What's going on? Whereas if it was that pace all the time, I'd be fine.

Yeah, like slowly. So maybe

Tania: We need to take you into the garden with me and Helen, we're already hot.

We've got one foot out there

Katie: I have no interest in the garden, but I like, except sitting in it while other people make it look nice. It's Cameron's job.

Tania: Yeah. It is tough on the personality, especially in the early days when you don't know what rhythm your work life balance is really gonna take. Everything seems to be a first time, like you work for an agency and then you work for a magazine and different types of clients.

There's no consistency or rhythm to it and you dunno how hard you're meant to work. Are you overdelivering or underdelivering? Yeah, God, the early days would've, I think that's the hardest

Helen: time. I think it's really hard for a picture bookmaker early days now because advances haven't really gone up. When I first started it was really easy. I lived in London. I could make maybe one book and a set of baby books a year and be [00:10:00] absolutely fine.

Have spare money, live an easy life. In London, it was fine, but over the years the wages just didn't go up. Luckily about the time advances stopped going up, I had some really good sellers, so then royalties came in. But it must be hard for picture bookmakers now because I did feel like I was on a treadmill of make another book just to keep going.

Money wise, as as the years went by. But I always had the royalties coming in and without that I think that's hard. So I think for picture bookmakers, having other streams of income is essential. Essential now.

Tania: So

Helen: those thoughts of what would I do if I wasn't a picture book maker is actually really healthy because writing on Substack or doing something else, having an online shop will make being a picture book make us so much less stressful.

Katie: Yeah,

Tania: Yeah, because you, it stops you saying yes to everything as well, which is the other trap, isn't it? If you haven't got [00:11:00] another income stream to prop you up a bit, you could spend weeks on a project that you don't like. That wasn't your core activity anyway. And at the end of it, you don't use it in your portfolio 'cause you don't wanna be commissioned for anything like that again.

But it paid the rent and too much of that can be a real downward spiral. 

Katie: Yeah. You wanna get to the stage where you're taking on jobs that pay well enough, you've got a bit of breathing room afterwards to do maybe a bit more marketing or to, re regroup before the next job. Because Yeah, when you're in that treadmill thing, it's horrible.

Tania: A lot of people put one day aside, don't they? For purely for marketing. So that they know they'll, but it's quite hard if a job, if the deadline on a job is a bit intense, then all those carefully organized structures for your business life go out the window and you're just working seven days a week to get this thing done.

Helen: I used to put a day aside for a few years, I would put a day aside every Friday, I would go and draw from life so that I would know what my next picture book was gonna be. 'cause I ne I [00:12:00] never, I've always been very lucky that I never had a gap, like a period where I got no work.

'cause books take so long to make and I had some books that sold well, so there'd always be another publisher. Or my publisher saying, can we sign you up for next year or the year after? Or the year after? So I never had a fallow period, but I did have periods where the ideas were fallowed. So they would be wanting the next book lining up.

But I would have just been come off the back of one book and had no idea what my next ideas would be. So I did go for a few years. Every Friday I would go drawing from life or do something like go and visit an exhibition or do something creative where another idea might, I might find something else.

Tania: Like artist

Helen: Yeah, like art. Exactly. Artist dates exactly that. So that. My brain would be fed with ideas rather than just sat in my studio working on the previous book.

Katie: That must be stressful. If they're like, come on. Then another book pleasing oh, I've just been,

Helen: And I think that's why every now and again I made a book that I really wish didn't [00:13:00] exist, because that need for when, what's the next one gonna be?

What's the next one gonna be? What's the next one gonna be? It's quite hardcore that it's really hard.

Tania: again, that points out that different areas in illustration that picture book author illustrators are a different beast to a service illustrator.

Sorry, it's a bit of a, kind of

Katie: it

Tania: the activity a bit, but we are always working with other people's content, aren't we, Katie?

Katie: I was thinking that I don't have to think of the ideas, I've gotta think of the ideas in terms of making it look interesting. But in the woods. And

It's

Tania: bit like that Father Ted thing. Like it sounds really nice being a pitch book author illustrator, but that's a lot of work. Oh, that's what you mean. You've got one idea and you have to have another idea and keep going like that

Helen: And when you've just finished a book as well, you feel absolutely it's like you just gave birth

Katie: birth, leave me alone.

Helen: else is going, when you gonna have the next one then when you gonna knock the next baby

Katie: that like when the midwife comes around you've given birth two hours ago and she's have you thought about contraception?

Helen: Yeah, exactly

Tania: that. I'll never need that ever again.

Katie: Are you mad?

Helen: It's [00:14:00] exactly that. Yeah.

Katie: Oh,

Tania: It's so different. It's so all encompassing, author, illustrator world.

You are the real deal. I shouldn't say that, but I think you are.

Helen: I'm shaking my head. It doesn't, don't feel like any real deal.

I wish I did. That would be nice. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that in and try and feel like the real deal. Thank you.

Tania: No, it is because you have that could, it's like fine art. You have decided the content, it's all come from you.

Whereas most other aspects of illustration is collaborative or servicing the author or someone else's content.

Katie: It

Helen: collaborative after you have the first idea,

Tania: After you had the first baby,

Helen: Yeah. So you have the idea and you get excited and you do your development work and then you go and see your team, your designer, your editor, and they get excited and now you're working together, but you need to go in with something from you.

Otherwise how, if it wasn't from you, if it was from them, [00:15:00] how would you make that excitement last over the next year? I think that's why I find it so hard to illustrate anybody else's text unless there's something about that text that really hits me inside. I can't get excited for more than the first few weeks.

Like it's that difference between I should do this and I really want to do it. And I think that's why I very rarely illustrate anybody else's work.

Tania: work, even so that when you talk about picture book world, it makes me feel so jealous. But look, you've got authors and editors and a team of people to work with.

Katie: does some

Tania: the other aspect of illustration. It's quite lonely. And the art directors that I work with, I've never met them. Hong Kong, I did know some of them because it was a smaller world and you physically met people at functions and events. But in the uk or it's just a disembodied email,

Katie: There's not even art directors. I'm sometimes working with the executive assistant.

So you won't tell them like teach them [00:16:00] about things.

Helen: So how have you found the difference? 'cause Katie and I, we've been writing together on some children's book stories, which will be out soon. Preor, you can do a pre-order now.

Actually

Katie: Yes.

Tania: I'm gonna make them talk about it on the next podcast.

They're gonna spill the beans.

Katie: Yeah.

Helen: Yeah. Pre-orders are a huge help, but we'll come back to that. So the difference between working on this picture book idea with Walker Books and your normal client, what's the difference?

Katie: Oh my God. Like, where do I even begin? So the picture book writing experience was, we met up, had some ideas.

Yeah. Helen was like, do you wanna write something? I was like, okay. We wrote some, wrote loads of ideas. A big pile of them went to Walker books and basically, oh no. We emailed them and they were like, we like the ideas. Come and see us. Went to see them.

Helen: They did a Scottish reel for us immediately as we walked in the office.

Katie: It always a good sign. Yeah. They

Helen: some, I might be an Irish jig.

Katie: It was an Irish jig. Yeah. They

Helen: some Irish jig music on, they did as a dance immediately. And I looked at Katie thinking, [00:17:00] what does Katie think of this

Tania: You had a human interaction. Oh my God. I mean that alone, the fact you're interacting with other people while you do this work is a revelation.

Katie: just baptism of madness?

Yes. at the right place. This is excellent. And yeah, so then, and then they gave us feedback and we, and felt so excited to rework on them.

And then Helen did all the hard work of doing the illustration. And now there's a magical, like the book is real it's just completely mind blowing. Whereas,

Helen: and we have a WhatsApp chat.

Katie: There's a WhatsApp

Helen: we chat about.

Katie: chat about

Helen: Shelves. We've had put up wallpaper dogs,

Katie: people getting married, Merry Christmas, like really lovely

Tania: chaps and

Katie: like that. And there is, it is like there's an actual team. 

Helen: Genuine relationship.

Katie: Yeah. The art the editor has been saying this and the art people with, anyways.

Yeah, it's, it is, feels like there's an army. Wanting this thing to succeed. Whereas the one-to-one client work that I do for live illustration, [00:18:00] it's more like they get in touch. The events next week are free. Yeah. It'll be this much. Okay. Here. Ready? Yeah. Basically. And then I'm like, okay, here's a form. Fill it in, pay me.

Okay. I've paid you, I filled the form in. Cool. Send me the link. Okay. Brilliant. I'll log in half an hour early. Okay. I'm here. Everything fine? Yes. Cool. Can you hear? Yeah. Can you see? Yeah. Okay. Done. And then it finishes. I'm like, there's the illustrations. Thank you. And that's it.

Helen: Wow.

Katie: And then I never see them again.

This

Tania: And you don't even see the, you don't look at the illustrations again.

Katie: No, not really. Content

Tania: isn't close enough to you for you to love that baby.

Katie: Unless it's a really exciting client or something where I'm like, oh, that was actually fun. But yeah, like this morning I had, I was going through all my clients I've worked for that I can find files for, and I was like, I do not even remember that job.

And then click on and be like, oh yeah, it was that. And then clicking on other things because I was trying to figure out like what industries I work with mainly and stuff for marketing. But it's just, yeah,

Tania: no, I know. I looked through piles of paper invoices going back to what, [00:19:00] 1995? Endless financial magazines and those illustrations, I can't, even if he showed me some of them, I'm like, did I do that?

Oh, I don't remember. No recognition of the work. And again, there's a, then, that's more service editorial, illustration, maps that I do now. I love and I'll keep, but a lot of editorial stuff and you wouldn't even put it in your portfolio.

Katie: No, I think when I started live illustrating, I was really excited about it and loved it.

And now it's a bit more like it's just my job and I'll do it and it's done. Whereas the book stuff felt really exciting and fun. 'cause I really enjoy writing. Then to see it in book form and read it to my daughter and her laugh at it. I was like, yes. That

Tania: a real thing. You're interacting with everyone's lives.

Helen: Yeah. You're expressing some personality and then feel ownership of it

Katie: and it lasts. Yeah. Yeah.

Tania: Yeah.

Katie: But yeah very different work experience.

Tania: I have a feeling Katie's gonna have a brainwave in a year or two and we'll be doing a complete, I dunno [00:20:00] whether it'd be completely different or whether it's a pivot.

I think you, you're gonna do something different soon.

You never stand still long enough. Anyway.

Katie: I get excited

Tania: Yeah. You'll find a thing.

Katie: thing

Tania: You're

Helen: through your crystal ball,

Katie: Ooh, what is it? Tell me what it's,

Tania: but what I think. Whatever we do, you just need community around you. 'cause we were talking about that loneliness thing as well and all the tricky bits of being an illustrator, but I think if you can find people that you can just spend a bit of time with, even if you have to travel to go for a coffee with illustrators in another town, it was our salvation in the end, wasn't it?

It would've been really hard carrying on now if we had never met and we'd never done good ship and we're still doing these same things on our own, the amount of stuff we would not have learned from each other, I

Katie: Yeah.

Helen: I can't imagine.

Tania: It blows my mind how

Helen: I'm so glad. You moved to Barrick and you graduated art school and we met those times for coffee and went should we share this with other people?

What do you think? Yeah. I said, [00:21:00] yeah, go. Yeah, maybe we should. Oh, it's lockdown. Shall we launch? I

Tania: I dunno. 

Helen: Katie's mom said she would join. We've got nothing to lose.

Katie: I meant to say you

Helen: We did the

Katie: My mom came to the AI workshop. Oh, she signed up for it anyway.

Helen: Did she?

Katie: I saw it. I was like, mom, why? Why do you need to stand out in the illustration industry? I love

Helen: it.

I love that.

Tania: That's so brilliant. 'cause he has been asking us so much stuff, hasn't she? You know what?

Helen: had my niece staying with us doing some work for Good Ship for us. She, on the morning of the AI workshop, got a text from her dad. It's okay. 'cause I don't think he'll listen and I'm sure he won't mind. But he sent her a message saying, oh, you're working with a good ship today.

You should talk to them about how brilliant this is. And on Facebook that day, all the local builders were all put in AI generated images of themselves with all of their like

Tania: oh, it's that awful caricature thing, wasn't it? Oh God 

Helen: and yeah. And he just [00:22:00] totally doesn't know about the world of illustration.

And he was trying to do her a favor for Holly to show us this, to show us how great

Tania: it's, I spent the whole week looking at other sort of other friends who were design adjacent who were doing that. And I was like, why? You should know better as a designer. Why do you want to fall for Sam Altman's stupid caricature thing and burn up half a lake of water to do that? It's just so pointless.

Helen: He didn't realize that he sent us it like half an hour before we were going live with our AI

Tania: workshop. It's really good.

Helen: I dunno why I'm talking about Oh yeah. 'cause you were talking about your mom at the workshop.

Katie: yeah. But yeah,

Tania: But before I came back to the UK, I'd just taken part in a group exhibition for the first time in ages with other illustrators, and it was such a brilliant experience and I met so many people.

So lots of work felt part of a community and I remember at the end of it thinking that is really significant. That is having such a massive impact on me. I [00:23:00] don't quite know how to turn this into something later, but I know that it's profound for me personally, and really all it was after 25 years of working on my own on a, in a little island, in not even in a village, no one would be passing by to knock on the door.

So it was really isolated. This was such a contrast that I was like wow, there's another world out there with other people who are doing the similar things and they might help you as well. So when we got back to. When I got back to the uk, I remember when we met up, I kept thinking, I must remember to do things with people because stuff happens and we did our Christmas fair, didn't we?

In my house?

Helen: That was good.

Tania: And it was our first sort of really dipping our toe into, okay, let's try and do a thing together and sell some

Helen: And then we took over a gallery in town the next year. This was pretty good ship. Yeah. We took over a gallery in town and that was a huge hit as

Katie: well.

We should do something like this again.

Helen: we should. It's good, wasn't it? Yeah. 

Tania: And then it ended up with this, I can't, like you say, I can't [00:24:00] imagine what life would be like if we hadn't all joined together and thought we were brave enough to do some mad things that actually did happen. Even though I look back on that part of my life in Hong Kong, I was really happy. But that isolation is corrosive. After a while, you just think, this is it. You just bob along like this. Nothing will happen. So if you're feeling like that as an illustration, you're feeling lonely. Just look, there's so many platforms, whether it's a OI or Instagram or even the Good Ship Instagram.

We have people in the courses saying things like, oh, I'm in Norwich. Anyone in Norwich or I'm in Vancouver. Anyone in V? There's all these micro groups have opened up everywhere.

Helen: that little lovely group of illustrators that includes Sam bedroom

Katie: on toast.

Helen: Yeah. Pencils on Toast, who have a Zoom call every week.

Tania: There's lots of communities on Instagram, aren't they? Whether they're local or global. But ideally you want something you can physically go to and hang out and make friends. 'cause I think the difference is phenomenal. It really changes how you [00:25:00] feel about your work, how your life.

Katie: Yeah. You're more powerful when you're band together, aren't you?

Yes,

Tania: Totally. I would never have been brave enough to even doing a podcast. Now, if someone said, oh, you will do podcasts, I feel like Not on your life. That's never gonna happen.

Katie: Here you are.

Tania: You go, what does it go? Go together. And you go further.

Katie: That's the one. Go along. Go along and you'll go faster.

Tania: Go together, go further.

Katie: Something like that.

Tania: Yeah, do. Correct us, but it's really true,

Katie: It's probably completely wrong.

Tania: completely wrong. Okay. Okay,

Katie: Okay. Bye-bye. Bye-Bye bye.

[00:26:00]