Help, I’ve forgotten how to draw 🫠

This week's podcast is a sneaky peek into the live Q&A calls we do for our Find Your Creative Voice; Fly Your Freak Flag students. (They happen monthly at the moment.)

WHADDA CHAT.

In this episode, we talk about:

• Pursuing boredom 
• The Artists' Way
• Why finding your style doesn’t always feel fun and easy and natural (Instagram's lying to yooou) 
• What to do when you have hundreds of project ideas and no clue which one to choose 
• How to handle agent/client feedback without immediately throwing your laptop into the sea 
• Galleries are better when you don’t try to “eat all the paintings” 
• Pens, colour, sketchbooks and abandoning black linework 
• Quentin Blake, Mr Bingo and free flapjacks. Just a normal day, really.

If you'd like to join us, go for it! Enrolment is open right now, and our next live call is happening on Thursday the 16th of July at 7pm UK time.

Timestamps

00:00 Art block
00:55 Morning pages
02:00 Wide margins
04:30 Boredom
06:00 Creative sparks
08:15 Creative identity
10:20 Comparison
11:30 Constraints
13:30 Page layouts
15:15 Deadlines
17:15 Oblique Strategies
18:30 Slow looking
21:00 Drawing from home
22:30 Quentin Blake Centre
26:45 Too many ideas
31:10 Feedback
37:30 Coloured linework
39:45 Closing thoughts

Stuff we mentioned & links (so many this week, woah)

• The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron 
• Make Every Day Creative by Marion Deuchars 
• David Hockney (RIP)
• Brian Eno’s Oblique Strategies
• Quentin Blake Centre - Thank you for inviting us to the preview day, team QB!
• Derwent Pencil Museum
• Picture Hooks https://www.picturehooks.org.uk/
• The Catchpole Agency http://www.thecatchpoleagency.co.uk/
• Muji fine liners
• Emma Carlisle / Sarah Dyer
  https://www.emmacarlisle.com/ 
  https://www.sarahdyer.com/
• The Good Ship Illustration Art Club
  https://www.instagram.com/thegoodshipillustration/?hl=en
• Fly Your Freak Flag
  https://www.thegoodshipillustration.com/freakflag
• The Good Ship Illustration colour workshop
  https://www.thegoodshipillustration.com/colour

Come and say hello!

✏️ @thegoodshipillustration
🌏 www.thegoodshipillustration.com

p.s. We love answering your illustration questions. Click here to submit your question for The Good Ship Illustration Podcast 🎙

Transcript

video1510614355
===

​[00:00:00] 

Shall I just jump straight in with the first question that we got emailed?

Yeah, go on. Okay, it's from Diana. "What are your best tips for getting out of an art block? I think I've burnt out big time. I can't draw. I am back to observational doodles and feel like I'm back to square one. I feel like I've lost all the steam, and even finding it hard to just sit and draw."

Oh. I know. I know that feeling. We've all been there, haven't we? Yeah, absolutely. And you write all sorts of bits and bobs down to get yourself motivated, but sometimes it just happens, and the beating yourself up just makes it worse, doesn't it? Mm. Not that that's a great answer, but- Mm ... I actually started doing The Artist's Way.

I love that book. Just because I [00:01:00] thought, "I've never done those, um, morning pages." I'm sure lots of you have here, because lots of our students have, have, um, talked about the Julia Cameron Artist's Way book. And it's so popular, but I'd never done it. So I'm only on, on day two, so I can't tell you what happens, but my help point would probably, why not try that with me?

See, apparently it brings you back to yourself. You think about things more rather than just the kind of beating up, like, "Just draw. Just draw." 'Cause that doesn't get you anywhere, does it? There's something magic about The Artist's Way, 'cause you start doing it, and you're really into it, and then you forget that you were doing it, but you start drawing again.

That's been my experience. I've never completed it or got anywhere near, like, completing it. I don't think anyone's supposed to. Also, do you think the, um, the artist dates are a good idea? 'Cause that's being a... That's a kindness to yourself.

Just going to a museum or gallery, just count that as work. Anything that feeds your creative brain, anything low pressure, even if it's not [00:02:00] drawing, just a, s- a tangent to drawing, anything creative, it's a win. It's j- it's about taking the pressure off, I think. I think sometimes it, um, when drawing is your job, you can get quite tangled up with the work aspect of it and, and I think a break is really useful, and then just being kind to yourself and having absolutely no pressure I like what you say, Helen, about wide margins.

I think that really helps i always like to, if I've been doing one creative job, have space round it before the next one. I can't just jump straight to one immediately into another. It's n- I like to have, like, a, either a studio clear-out or a holiday or a, just a break before you start the next thing.

That's especially true of picture books, isn't it, or big projects, where you've been nosed to the grindstone for maybe six months, five [00:03:00] months. And I think also true if you're in fast turnaround, uh, editorial kind of illustration, where you take on lots of jobs and move on to the next one really quickly.

Mm. Those can go on and on with no stop. At, at least a big project, there's an end, and then there's this, like you say, the studio clear-out and a big treat. Sometimes it kinda gets too much. . Since lockdown, since we launched Good Ship, I really got out of the routine of drawing in my sketchbook from life. I would sometimes take out a massive one, but that was different 'cause that would be pack a backpack, loads of materials, huge sketchbook, make a proper deal of it.

But the everyday just drawing in my sketchbook just went completely. Mm. And it started to really prey on my mind, like, "Why am I not doing it?" I'm teaching a course, and I'm not doing it at the moment, and I think that made it worse, the feeling of guilt, like, "Why am I not doing this?" Um, yeah, and I just let, I just let it go.

I [00:04:00] just let it go and thought, "Well- These are phases. Like, everything is a phase, isn't it? When you're watching your ch- anybody who's got children, when you watch your children grow up, you need never have a panic about anything 'cause it's always a phase and they're out the other side soon. And yeah, and I think that happened with sketchbook, and I've suddenly got into it again, and now it feels easy.

I had to tell myself it was totally low pressure. Just the fact I got it out and made my pen do something on the page was a win. That was it, end of. Nothing more than that. And eventually it just came back. But I had to just trust it, it would eventually. And the worse I felt about it, the less likely it was I would pick my sketchbook up.

Sarah Holland has a really nice tip here. "To the current person, I'd suggest allowing boredom to flow. Have a day away from the phone, going outside without any stimuli, letting the brain wander and notice things." I often think about that because our brains have been subject to a couple of decades of completely unnatural stimulus, [00:05:00] and also being in a freelancer's career, searching for answers all the time and finding out who you're supposed to be, what, who you're supposed to emulate, how your work is meant to feel, how hard you're meant to work.

We're just so raw from looking constantly like, "Am I enough? Am I good enough? Am I doing the right things?" That boredom ha- probably hasn't had a look in for years. Mm. And that pure boredom, I think, is a great idea. It's such a novel and bizarre notion in these times. I like the idea of, uh, like, aiming for boredom is good 'cause sometimes when you think, "I'm gonna have a creative day or an artist day," you're like, "Well, I must find the best exhibition and take my best art supplies."

But if I had the goal of being bored, it's like, "Oh, I can do that, easy." God, we should be- Also, I think if something, like, lights your imagination, and even if it isn't drawing exactly, it's just something catches your imagination, just follow it. I think we all get so [00:06:00] tied up with so many jobs, we stop following our instinct into little, little, um, avenues, little, mm, like, areas of interest.

We stop following them because we feel like we're busy all the time. Um, so I think if anything, like you hear about, uh, I don't know, go to, go to a museum and just see what's there without having a plan, and if there's one painting you love, really go for that. Think about why you like it and really follow it.

I think we're so busy we don't allow ourselves, uh, that playtime anymore and just adventure for the sake of it. Absolutely, yeah. And someone asked me today, I was supposed to be going on a podcast, and they said, "What is it that you are interested in or you're obsessed about at the moment?" And it was such a good question.

I couldn't actually reply to the invitation for about a month while I thought really hard about... And then I realized thinking hard wouldn't answer it. It was going back to noticing again. Mm. Just trying to notice what kind of revs you up. Trying to avoid Pinterest for [00:07:00] that, but there is a certain amount of, you know, Pinteresting that does drag you off to a corner where you're like, "Oh, God, I really like this.

It's nothing like my work. What is it?" And if it's, like, mark-making or color, then just spend, if you've got the privilege of time, spend some time just playing with that specific thing. Not, I don't mean copying the person or anything like that. Maybe you're just obsessed about color palettes or mark-making or drawing.

Anything that takes you back to the play zone, which is what we always talk about. Um, and I was trying to think of answers for this question just earlier. And, uh, my friend, Marion Deuchars, who's you've seen on the course earlier at the beginning, she did a book called Make Every Day Creative: Art That Anyone Can Do, and it's really nice.

It's such a playful book. It kind of links with our art club, which is another place to get your play from. You know, go onto YouTube and do a couple of art clubs because they always get you back in the mood. Color workshop might 'cause that's playing, low stakes. Um, yes, yeah, it's just [00:08:00] trying to access the play again, isn't it?

Mm-hmm. Sarah says, "To add, watching David Hockney speaking about looking in the world makes me very inspired to put my phone down."

There's another question. From Pip who says... It's a quite a long question, but it's a good one. "I would love your thoughts on the problem of not knowing what to make or how to start, and the feeling that my internal identity and artistic drives don't seem to be coming naturally like it seems for most others.

I've just finished the Freak Flag course. Thank you. I will write some notes on how helpful and inspiring it was. Today, I wanted to ask for help around something that has come up for me. I feel as though I see other artists working in their sketchbooks and doing final artwork, and when I sit down at my desk, I'm at a loss as to what to make or experiment with and how, even after all the amazing material in the course.

I know I want to make work, but I feel like my internal creative identity, and drives aren't surfacing. I'm ping-ponging drastically [00:09:00] between styles, materials. And outside of that, my sketchbook work is mainly pretty faithful observational drawing, and I don't see a distinctive voice developing in that work that could translate to my visual language for making picture books, which is ultimately what I want to do.

For some context, I have AuDHD." "I am an autistic ADHD woman who has been seriously ill and mainly housebound for eight years or so. I do wonder if my neurodivergence plays a role in this, i.e., too many possible directions, tasks to initiate, lifetime of adapting to external expectations, forgetting internal signals, perfectionism, et cetera.

Thank you. Pip." Oh, this sounds painful, doesn't it? Yeah. Sounds really tough. As well as being stuck in the same place, if you're housebound, I think that stagnation of being in the same environment for so long, I hate that. It drives me nuts. If I'm at home for too long, I have to get out. [00:10:00] And then having all your brain doing all the heavy lifting, which is basically like a massive ping-pong game with a load of people playing with no rules, but all in the same place.

I think that gets, that just gets really tiring. So God, I feel for you. That's, that's really tough. I also wonder at that line that she says quite early on in it, where she says- Don't seem to be coming naturally like it seems for most others, and it can c- look from a distance as if everybody else is finding it easy, especially if you're on social media.

I would question that, 'cause I think for a lot of people, all of us at different points in our careers, it's not easy. , You know, there's that sometimes that notion that says a load of free-flowing inspiration, plus also a very directed direction that you, takes you where you need to go, and you think that's how everyone's feeling, and, and I really don't [00:11:00] think they do.

I often think about fine artists who have got to work with their own ideas and be motivated to work even though there's not even the core target of making money or fulfilling a brief. That kind of motivation must be really, really difficult. And I, personally, that's why I like illustration because I don't have to worry about the content.

I'm working with a th- third party authored content. And so sometimes that's a relief, and if you're thinking about children's books, unless you are push- you're pushing yourself towards author-illustrator status, is it possible you can just take a title, even something you don't feel genuinely connected to because there's a challenge in that to make it connect to you.

So you take a preexisting story and work with that. That's just taken f- 50% of the content away from you, so now you're just thinking about the visuals. That could be one way of working, and then find other limitations, whether it's color palette, mark making. I mean, I've found in some projects where I've started to work in a certain [00:12:00] way, if I forget to list my digital brushes and list my palette, and suddenly the door opens to everything again.

I'm really confused. I'm like, "Just put the brushes down you used. Remember what they are. A penc- a line or a pencil and a brush and a texture. Four colors. Don't move outside of any of that because you're just getting a pickle again." So limitations, I think, can be really helpful. Even if they don't feel like the ones you might choose, just choose anything and limit yourself.

Yeah. That structure would be so helpful. And there's also the thing of, um, it might not feel good. I think a lot of the time we're fed this, it's gonna be so fun, and I know it'll be right 'cause I'll be having such a good time. Like, sometimes it is a complete slog, and you've gotta sort of drag yourself back to the desk and be like, "Right.

I'm gonna do the thing." And it takes a while to get into it. But yeah, like Helen said, it can look f- especially on Instagram and social media, like all the people are just sitting down, all the work is flowing out, and they know exactly what their style is and things. But yeah, picking something that already exists like a nursery rhyme or a [00:13:00] story, and then you'll have the structure Your autistic brain will love.

And then, you know, you can use ADHD powers of, like, having a million exciting ideas all at once, but funneling them into that one story and go crazy with it. Because, yeah, I think limitations, like Tanya said, will help so much. And yeah, and also knowing that if it feels rubbish and you're kicking yourself a little bit, that's fine 'Cause it kind of echoes the situation of an illustration brief as well.

You have a, you know, the intensity of a deadline, maybe three days, some content you actually have no connection with at all. Could be hedge fund managers, it could be, you know, something from a tech magazine or science that you don't understand, but you've gotta pull something conceptually out of that. So even, say, for example, moving away from children's book for a little while, which is a, such a big overarching kind of project, and getting some magazines and take an article out of them and just say, "This is a [00:14:00] choice.

I can't go either way on this," you know, whether it's n- from New Scientist or a business magazine. And use the page as well as a kind of context for your work to sit against, 'cause quite often when we're working on illustration and they could sort of flow out, your illustration could flow out in all d- directions.

But the moment you scan it and drop it into a page of preexisting design, it's suddenly like adding spice to food or, like, whoa, uh, you see it in a whole new light. So if you had a page layout to drop it into as well to work with, maybe that page has certain colors in the typography or a certain space, and you can come across all sorts of interesting moments.

Like, you make a big complex image, but it's only gonna print, like, a quarter page image. Reduced down, it could be too busy, and you realize it's lost everything because you made it too busy for that real artwork reproduction size. Or do something brave. Like, if you have a full page, w- what if your illustration is just a really quick drawing in one color?

How [00:15:00] does that look next to typography? 'Cause you are part of a designer's, um, vision, whether it's picture book or whether it's magazine, and your illustration doesn't exist in isolation. It's gonna exist on a page playing as part of an orchestra. So if, if you see it in context, you can suddenly have so many different ideas about your own work.

Mm. I was thinking as well what might help is you, when you have a competition to enter, you've also got the deadline. 'Cause I know for me, if a deadline isn't real and I've made it up for myself, I'm like, I know it's not real, so I ignore myself, and then just ignore it and hear it whistling past. But if it's a competition and somebody else is setting the deadline and it is real, then I'm much more likely to do it.

Saying that, I've never ... I don't think I've, I've actually ever entered a competition. But if I was stuck and I needed a deadline, I think I would much prefer if it was real-life one. I agree. I think when I'm trying to learn anything, if I'm, if I'm now trying to, I don't know, learn how to make a book on [00:16:00] Procreate or something, I need the book.

I need to have the book commission in order to learn it. I can't learn it in theory. I'll just fiddle forever. So that having a deadline is really useful. I wonder, 'cause she wants to get into picture books, Pip- Yeah, Pip. Um, whether you just made a very, very simple baby book, so you just choose, I don't know, five words.

You could decide I'm gonna make a series of four books. Each book has five words. Each word has a double page spread. I can only work in three colors, and I wanna do all of these books a week each. Like, like Katie and Tanya said, like really set the parameters, palette, and everything. I think your style a l- uh, just evolve from being forced to do a project.

I think if you haven't got a project to do and you don't have a timeframe to do it, you can just keep pondering it forever. There's nothing like a deadline for kind of [00:17:00] forcing it out. Yeah. And a, and a- an artwork size and everything. There are also the briefs at the end of this course. Mm. Uh, when you get to the last part, we put a set of sort of quite open-ended briefs that hopefully you can adapt to your own tastes or enthusiasms, and use whatever you've developed on the course to the briefs.

And Philip mentions that Brian Eno's Oblique Strategy cards. I've got mine here. We could pull one out just to see how oblique he really is. Yeah, let's do. I want to see them. Okay, people. Pick a card, any card. I'm picking one. That one. It says, "Abandon normal instruments." Mm-hmm. Oh, so get rid of your pencils and your paintbrush, maybe even paper, or screen- yeah, that's good. And the, and the one on the other side said, "Be less critical more often." Ooh. [00:18:00] Ooh, Mr. Zen Eno. Right, I'm gonna keep these out. These are gonna help me as well. We could do- Catherine, Catherine says, "Tanya, what are these prompt cards please?" Yeah, repeat, what are they called again?

They're called Brian Eno's Oblique Strategy cards, and they are a pack of very uber simple cards, just black backs, white fronts. Wow. And inside are just some very short statements. Okay. Ooh, slow preparation, fast execution. Nice. So they're creative strategies to try and push you off your normal, uh, direction and get out of your own way and try something new.

I like what Holly says there in the comments, that her local museum started doing guided slow art sessions where you just sit with one artwork for a really long time, like an hour.

I, I often, if I go into a gallery, feel really overwhelmed, get completely bamboozled, and just wanna go to the cafe or the gift shop. So over [00:19:00] recent years I've just started just visiting one or two pieces of artwork in the gallery. Just s- see one I like, stand and read all about it, sit down and have a look at it, maybe do a drawing of it, and maybe find another.

And the pressure is really low, and then I'm allowed the cafe and the gift shop and everything. But trying to have a look around a whole gallery, oh, it just does my head in. I, I won't like loads of stuff. Look, I, I become so immune to it all, I just walk past everything. When you go to the, the National Portrait Gallery and you're seeing masterpieces and you're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Next. Let's move on." Yeah. But if you decide I'm gonna go in and I'm s- gonna see two pieces, but I'm gonna look at them really well, I'm really gonna enjoy them and, and look at everything in them and think about them, oh, it's such a relief to give yourself permission not to look intelligent and look at every single one.

Can you give me permission now? Just- Yeah. D- Thank you ... try not, yeah, try not to look intelligent. That would be a g- Abandon [00:20:00] normal instruments. Yeah. The value for money n- nonsense, like I paid £18.50 for this ticket, I'm gonna eat all the paintings. I'm not gonna miss a single one. I will consume the lot. And it's really poor quality looking.

David Hockney would be horrified. So I think he'd really approve of your system, Helen. This old man came into the gallery where F- Frida's working today. When I picked her up today, when she got home from work, I picked her up, she said this man had come in, and he'd kind of generally irritated them. He'd been a bit rude.

And he looked at her and said, "You're a teenager, I bet you spend all your life on your phone." Oh. And I, and I thought she was gonna say to me, "I told him to get lost, and that I don't." But she just went, "Yeah, that's right." And I just thought, brilliant. Don't try and sound intelligent, just let him think whatever he wants to think.

She just went, "Yeah, hmm." Brilliant. Such a great thing to do. I was like, "Yeah, well done. That showed him." A really nice comment here for Pip. She said, "I've been housebound for several years myself. My experience [00:21:00] is that online communities can be brilliant, and drawing together on Zoom with friends or via Patreon is getting me through hard times.

We inspire and challenge each other and have a nice chat too. And though I absolutely love drawing from observation, I allow myself to draw from photos even found online." Yet that's a big issue. If you are housebound, and you're in that same kind of environment, you don't have the privilege of going out to look at new things that might stimulate you.

But like Art Club has proved, the most humble of objects grabbed from the shelves three minutes before Art Club starts are perfect because you don't have to do them justice. You can actually just riff on them with your materials, and you could get one of the... You know, we could put some oblique strategies cards up and apply those too.

That would be a great Art C- Club. We should do that. Oblique strategies Art Club. Yeah, let's do that. I'd love that. And then maybe Brian Eno would become our friend, and he'd join in too. Let's get him on the podcast. I don't think he's busy. Yeah, he'd planned not to be. But the community and, and online is great, and there's so many...

What are they? [00:22:00] Uh, pencils for tea. Um, what are they? Yeah. There's loads of really great groups. Toast on pencils, pencils on toast. Yeah. Toast for breakfast. I don't know. Got a good name. But I was also thinking of Emma Carlisle's thing. Didn't she do... Oh, it's called geo-crunching or something. That, that's not the right name, but when you go on the Google Maps, and you find somewhere, and you draw it all together.

So it's like exploring. Yeah, find... Yeah, find a, a scene. Oh. All of you find it on Google Maps, and then all- Map crunch. Thank you, Linda. Not geo-crunching. I was close. Yeah. Very close. I thought was it Sarah Dyer? I think a few people said- Yeah, Sarah Dyer, Emma Carlisle. There was a nice easy question earlier from Philip again, who said, "Tell us about the Quentin Blake Center."

It was good. Yeah Liked it. It was good. I wanted it be bigger, but it ki- you've gotta start small, haven't you? We got a free flapjack. Yeah. Yeah, we went to the cafe and we loaded up. We got, like, pots of tea and Coca-Cola and flapjacks, and got our card [00:23:00] out, and they were like, "Oh, it's all free today." And we were like, "Oh, I promise we didn't realize."

The Quentin Blake section's the best. You just want more of that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's got lots of his working drawings and... But there was a really good

LGBTQ+ com- comic zine, queer zines was really good. And you needed... That was one of the others. We'd exhausted ourself on Quentin, and then we only had 10 minutes left, and there were about 50 zines to read. Yeah. They were, like, shuffling us out and sweeping us to make us leave- Yeah ... and we're trying to read the comics at the same time.

But I think Blake exhibition was amazing. I always find him really inspiring. Yeah. He's just fantastic, isn't he? He's such a natural. Um, they said, what I've heard a lot since is that it really needs to be supported. They've raised the money, um, and they got all the funders in there. It exists now, but it's, it's not, like, concerned about can it continue.

It, it obviously will, but they're like, they really hope that it will get [00:24:00] a stream of illustrators through the door and allow it to continue. We wa- that, that's our fault 'cause of all the flapjacks. The cake. Yeah. That's what it is. We're sinking them- ... one flapjack at a time. We're sorry. We tried to pay and they wouldn't let us.

The library was my favorite part. I want to... Next time we go, I just want you to leave me in the library all day. Wow. Yeah. And that's free as i- what's... The cafe and the library and the shop are free. Yeah. So you could go and meet your friends there and hang out and make it your destination place, and then the exhibitions are ticketed.

And I can't remember w- how much. Something teen fifty. Was it 19.50? Something teen, maybe. Yeah, I can't remember the exact number. Someone said, "Have you been to the Roald Dahl Center?" No, I'm, I'm from Northamptonshire, and it was a stop on the train that I used for years and years and years to London, and I never got off.

I don't know why. It's appalling, but I'd love to have seen that [00:25:00] place I went to the Derwent Pencil Museum. Has anybody been there? Nice. Absolutely brilliant. Talking about stumbling across somewhere that you didn't really think about going, and then finding it one of the most inspiring things you've ever seen, that's what it was. It was amazing. My whole family were like, "Oh, pencil museum."

I said- ... "Come on, let's go in. Let's go in." It was fantastic. Oh, that- My dad got a job there once, uh, doing something for their boiler, and he brought back, like, bags and bags of pencils. It was so... Like, 'cause they were the seconds and the ones that needed- ... they had, like, too much lead in them. And oh my goodness, I can still smell the smell of them.

I love the smell of pencils. Wow. But, and before we went to the Quentin Blake Museum, we were standing on the street, and there was a great big drum in a window with a woman's bum on it, and it's... had some kind... I can't remember what the message was, but we were drawn to it like moths to a flame. And then we realized it was Mr.

Bingo's studio, and he was in there. [00:26:00] And we were peering up against the window, and he started waving to come in because he's only open on a Friday or something, and this was Tuesday. And suddenly we were there in the presence of Mr. Bingo, which was quite overwhelming. Lucky Kate, luckily Katie had followed him for ages and was ready with some purchases and some handy chat.

Mm-hmm. He was friendly, wasn't he? He was very friendly, but he was so witty- Mm ... that I just clammed up, 'cause I thought he was so full of wit and, uh, fun snark. Yeah. Fun snark. That's the word. It was brilliant. Then I said, all I could think to say was, "Oh, Miles Davis," in a silent way, 'cause he was playing the music, and then suddenly we were spiraling into a jazz competitive chat.

And we both looked at each other as if to say, "This is the kind of stuff that you make snarky pictures out of. I wish I'd never said it.". I feel like there was a question earlier on. Well, Sarah's [00:27:00] got one. It's another neurodivergent question. "So my busy brain has a lot of ideas. Also working full time for years, being unwell means a lot has built up, a lot of ideas have built up, and now I have hundreds of project ideas, which in itself can be paralyzing.

I'm so aware of how much there is to draw everywhere in real life, online, how to handle drawing formal, and how to know which ideas are worth pursuing, and does it matter?" Well, we... I feel like we kind of did that with the previous one, like giving yourself constraints, didn't we? But you didn't mention your car park of ideas, Katie, which I think would be quite relevant here, wouldn't it?

It sounds like there's more cars than car park potentially. Well then, if you had all the cars, how about you look at them all and you are only allowed... They're burning down the car park right now. All the cars are about to go on fire. You have to grab the one that you really can't bear to part with. I love that Is it like when you flip a coin and they're [00:28:00] like, "Which one?"

And then it's the one, and you find out what one you're disappointed about not getting? Yeah, exactly. I wish there was a kind of long-term ... 'Cause that's just a two-parter. You'd be there with a coin for ages going through them all. There must be some way. Like, I was reading that de- ... I was reading someone doing another decluttering reel, and they were saying instead of, uh, what should you throw away is what, what must you keep?

But- Mm ... in, in extremis, you know, you've got to get yourself really worked up. Have someone in the room grabbing the things and taking them away from you, and then y- it's the ones you're prepared to chase them down the street after are the ones you really care about. Um, maybe you do know the answer, but you're not aware of the answer.

I think this is really interesting. Sometimes when I go to psychotherapy, I'll say, "I'm trying to make a decision, and there's this option and this option and this option, and I can't decide." And then in talking about it, she'll reflect back at me what I've said, and I might have said, "I'll be really sad not to do that one."

And she said ... She'll say, "You've [00:29:00] said, 'I will be sad not to do that one,' which means that you have decided it, but it was so subconscious you didn't realize until you've said it out loud." I wonder whether you should talk through your projects with somebody and just see whether, as you talk about them, you work it out yourself in, in saying it out loud.

That's a really good one. That's like there's two parallels with that. There's the one Katie said, which is part of this course, where you say all the reasons why you can't be an illustrator, and you say them out loud to hear how ridiculous you are. Yeah. And I think the other one is when you put a portfolio together, and I know people don't get the opportunity to do this much now, but it was really a, a good test when you took your portfolio in to, um, a designer and you started flipping through.

And you can see or you can hear yourself minimizing the things you have no, no con- confidence in, or the ones you open the page and think, "Oh, God, why did I put that one in?" And you start saying, negating stuff about it. All the signs are there about your lack of confidence to do with certain [00:30:00] things. So- Mm

yeah, like Helen said, talk it through with someone. And maybe with some beginning images so that you can gauge your emotional commitment to it or not. Yeah. Sometimes I'll make a few different rough drawings for something, and I can't make my mind up, and I'll come in the kitchen with, like, five drawings, and Gerry'll be in here.

And I'll say, "Can I just show you these drawings? I can't make my mind up with wi- which one." And I'll show the first one, I'll go, "Not that one." And then the next one, "I don't like the background on that one." And then the next one, and I'll be like, "Mm." And then the next one, "No, don't look at that one." Like, there'll be something edits in my head for him, and then I immediately know because I've shown him and I've basically told him my answer.

And he just stands there like, "Okay." He doesn't need to ask me. You just need an audience. Ask him. I just needed an audience, and I needed to say it out loud to know what I thought I think that is the acid test. I don't know why we don't do this more often, 'cause the other one is [00:31:00] send, send three roughs to the client.

They'll definitely get the one you dislike. Yeah. So fake that situation- Yeah ... and pull out the one that you l- least like 'cause you know they'll pick it, and that's you for the next two weeks drawing a picture you hate. So- Emma Simpson says that Picture Hooks have a new competition on now with cats. Mm.

Brilliant. Ooh. Mm. The- Eliza put a question in at the beginning we should really answer because it's a nice solid, straightforward one. I have a question about input from an agent. I just submitted a book dummy. I'm really proud of it, but my agent has some feedback I'm not sure I align with. How do you push back while still saying, staying open and collaborative?

I want to stay true to my vision, but I also know edits are essential. That's a really good question. I feel like Helen is the queen of this. Mm. It's really hard, isn't it? 'Cause if you've not made books before, you do need to rely on somebody else's expertise, but if at the same time it's pushing you way out of [00:32:00] shape and it feels intuitively wrong, then you don't wanna go that far.

I think you have to trust your instinct. Also, sleep on it, 'cause sometimes I get feedback and instantly reject it, like instantly. Instant fury sometimes. But I know that if I sleep on it, leave it a few days, something happens. It's like it's living in the background. I'm discussing it in my head sort of somehow.

It's going on. Something's happening subconsciously. And then when I look at it again, I might know the answer, whether it feels right or feels wrong. It's hard. Do you like what the agent does? Do you like the books that they're making with other people? Do you trust their advice? Does everything else about the agent seem good?

If you like the other books that other people are making with that agent, maybe it's just a way of getting a foot in the door. So if this is your first book, maybe just go with the advice and give it a [00:33:00] try And then if you feel a bit bent, bent out of shape, at least you've got a foot in the door and now you can correct it.

It's kind of knowing your own boundaries as well, isn't it? It's like someone dri- uh, asking you to drive down to Cornwall, but they're asking you to go via Norwich. That's too far out the way. I can't go there. I wanna go straight down the mo- all the motorways and get there. How far out of your boundary are you prepared to go, you know, round the houses?

I think all of us know w- how flexible we are, and y- you do really need to know that. Obviously, being rigid is no good, and just saying yes to every change leaves you lost, like it's ... All of us have been there and been bent out of shape. But if you say, "I'm prepared to go via Leicester, and that's your lot" At least you're still going in the same direction.

That's what I do, the Leicester thing. And it's not picture books, it's live illustration, but I'll tell clients, "This is how many [00:34:00] changes you're allowed, roughly, and this is what you're not allowed and what would be billed as extra." But also, 'cause it's live illustration, I feel like I'm not so emotional.

I'm not, I'm like actually not at all emotionally attached to it and I don't really care, 'cause I'm never gonna see it again. So sometimes they'll be like, "We want this horrific thing added," and I'm like, "Okay," and then do it, and then just to get them off my back. But I have the same, like sometimes I'll get feedback and it's instant fury and rage, and I can't do the feedback for a couple of days 'cause I'm so angry.

And then when I'm doing it I'm like, "Oh, actually this does make sense." Like, they're just- Yes. Yeah. I've done that before as well. They've, they've asked me for a change and I've thought, "Not, no. On my grave I will not do that." And then a few days go by and I feel a bit less strong, I give it a go and I think, "Oh yeah, they knew what they were talking about."

Yeah. It's much better. And, and sometimes you can pretend to do it as well, and it's amazing. In your head you think they're talking about this difference, but if you just do a little bit of that, maybe just under halfway, and they ... it looks like it's done, then that's [00:35:00] enough, you know. They'll, they'll go with it.

Yeah. And did you say it was your agent as well- Mm ... not the publisher? 'Cause that's always a funny one as well, isn't it? Like ... It's become more and more common apparent- well, like, I hear more and more people say that their agent helped them shape something before it goes to the publisher And I, I hear good, I hear good and bad about it.

Some people have good experience with it, some not so good. I was talking to somebody who really loves The Catchpole Agency, children's book agency. The Catchpoles really work with, um, the illustrators, but in a really creative, really great way that seems to be a g- good experience. And then I hear other experiences where it's terrible.

My agent would never give me creative advice. I don't ask her for it. She would never do it. I just think each agent is different, and you have to know whether you like it or not. If you don't like this feedback, maybe they're not the right agent. It's, you know. Yeah. Yeah. [00:36:00] It's a bit like if you're working for an agency and the, the, the, and it's their client, I used to hate it if the agency would ask for feed- would give you feedback, and then you'd find out they haven't even shown the client yet, and you're like, "You're just guessing what the client is gonna think."

Yeah, yeah. And they, they're gonna have more feedback, and that's the worst thing ever. Yeah. And that is what agents are doing. They're trying to sell your book to the publisher, so without showing the publisher, they're changing you a bit in w- in their mind will make you more sellable and acceptable, and yet you don't know, you don't know.

Like, the publisher don't know what they want till they see it. And sometimes they take huge risks and do something completely new that you might have thought they would never wanna do. So it's tricky. It's kind of a, it's also a case for getting stuff sorted out in the beginning, whether it's sort o- you get the agent or the publisher, but ideally the publisher or client, to identify in your portfolio the work that they're com- that made them commission you for this.[00:37:00] 

You know, it's desi- using the design process properly and making sure that you start with very loose roughs and they're not asking you to work stuff up to any high level, just do the bare basics. Um, and sign everything off at every stage so that you can't, at color rough stage, say, "Oh, I don't know. I don't think this is working.

Could we take a step backwards?" I always think it's like, um, you know, a sheep dip. You go through a series of gates, and you shut each gate behind them, so there's no returning back to the beginning and having a big rethink. But definitely, I think looking and sharing some imagery of your own and maybe some external, um, things to ens- to ensure that you're all in, on the same page to s- to start with.

There's a good question here, completely off topic, but a good one from Amy, who says, "Niche question, so skip if you don't have time. But I love a .1 black fine liner pen for occasional line work on picture book spreads. Don't really get [00:38:00] on with ink. Searching for a new .1 navy or brown fine liner and can't find any online.

Have you any suggestions? After the color workshops, I'm trying to avoid adding black." I, I was gonna talk about, um, something else, but I've just remembered that your daughter, Tanya, got me ... When we were in Italy, got me ... Not got me to buy, she just told me she loved this pen in Muji, which is a brown, very fine fine liner.

Yeah. Oh, it's gorgeous. I absolutely love it, and that was from Muji. I don't know if it's a .1, uh, but it feels extremely thin, so it might be. I don't- Drawing with color just shakes everything up, doesn't it? Like, your, your, the sketchbook stuff you're doing at the moment, drawing with the Tombows, starting with a color, it already puts you in a different space, doesn't it?

Yeah. It really turns things around to drop the black. Well, I'm always gonna say that, aren't I? It really does, because with, with Salty, I, I decided I didn't want to use black, so I decided to use colored ink, and [00:39:00] I'm using a really fine paintbrush to put the line on. But it gives you a nice range of colors, and I can mix my own inks together to get a color I like as well.

Ooh, nice. Yeah. It does change things when you stop using black. I do like it. It gets you away from that trap of drawing stuff to color in as well, doesn't it? Yeah. Absolutely, 'cause the black, it's like working on an A format piece of paper or using Times New Roman. It's like, oh, here we are, A4 paper- ... and a black line.

And you're already ... You kind of turn off, 'cause you know what the outcomes are gonna be like. Whereas if you do something weird, like start drawing with the brown liner, you're watching what's happening in front of you. You're really engaged, and there's that kind of game of, well, what happens if I put this color background with it?

Because you've no idea what's gonna happen, and then you're in that great curious mindset, playful mindset. I've just noticed the time.

This has been very pleasing chat. Yeah, it has. It's been really nice to have fewer questions in the email, hasn't it? Yeah. More chat in the comments. That it allows [00:40:00] for, um, a more in-depth thought about things because there's no, not so much pressure to get through lots of questions. So it's a real treat just to, you know, meander through what are the evergreen issues of, "Oh, I'm stuck.

How do I get out of this? How do I choose?" 'Cause they are, they, they burden us all, those same things, don't they? Mm-hmm. They're always the same questions. Mm. They never go away, annoyingly. They just come back in a different form. It's like a s- circle, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Mm. Well, that was good. Hope it was useful.

We'll see you all soon. Yeah. Bye. Bye, everybody. Bye.

[00:41:00]