The Good Ship Illustration

No, you *don't* have imposter syndrome - an interview with Lauren Currie OBE

• The Good Ship Illustration • Season 13 • Episode 24

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0:00 | 39:46

What's the point in making all this gorgeous work if you don't have the confidence to share it, eh? EH!?

Who better to grill on this subject than Lauren Currie, OBE.

Lets gooo:

Timestamps, for the timestamp fans:

00:00 – Intro 
01:00 – Confidence = the elephant in the room for creatives
02:00 – Lauren on why confidence matters so much, especially for women and marginalised people 
05:00 – The shite UN statistic 
07:00 – "What would a mediocre middle-aged man do?" 
09:00 – Confidence is a team sport, not a solo endeavour 
11:00 – Carrying responsibility for how everyone else feels 
12:00 – 10 people whose opinions actually matter (and why it's not Jeanie from school's mum's dentist) 
14:00 – Imposter syndrome
16:00 – The 1970s research that labelled women with a "syndrome" instead of looking at the system 
19:00 – Why self-doubt is healthy
21:00 – Confidence is a muscle 
22:00 – Lauren's art
25:00 – Old lady faces
27:00 – Should you have a separate art Instagram? 
28:00 – The Barcelona art show story
32:00 – Why 'just' 20 people seeing your work is a LOT of people 
33:00 – Lauren's advice for illustrators who are scared to share their work 
36:00 – On hiding
38:00 – We need your art!!

Links and books etc. mentioned:

Come and say hello!

✏️ @thegoodshipillustration
🌏 www.thegoodshipillustration.com

p.s. We love answering your illustration questions. Click here to submit your question for The Good Ship Illustration Podcast 🎙

June 3 - Lauren Currie
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​[00:00:00] 

Hello. This week's podcast guest is Lauren Curry. You might have heard of her. She's the founder of Upfront, um, and also the author of the book Be Upfront, she wears Lots of Red. You might have seen it on Instagram. Anyways,, you know what, you're gonna have such a nice time listening to Lauren.

You don't need me to introduce her. She needs no introduction. Have a lovely time listening to the podcast and hopefully it gives you a confidence boost and helps you realise that imposter syndrome is not real.

​

katie: , So good to have you here. Thank you for agreeing to come on to the Good Ship Illustration podcast. I am [00:01:00] very excited to grill you about confidence

and it's interesting, like one of the things that comes up over and over again is confidence. And the first time we ran the Find Your Creative Voice course, we didn't, we briefly thought about it, but we didn't appreciate what a big elephant in the room confidence is.

'cause we were like, oh, if we help people, find their style, figure out how they like to work and all that stuff, they make great work. B bash, bosh, the rest is history. But people were making this incredible work and 'cause they didn't have the confidence piece of the jigsaw puzzle, they were just like sitting on their gorgeous work.

Oh, I can't tell anybody about this. Or oh I shared about this once. I cannot ever possibly re-share about this. 

lauren: Yeah, I think for me, what's always interesting is regardless of the room that I'm in or the conversation that I'm having, they all say a version of what you've just said. So it's whether it's engineers in a tech startup, illustrators, chefs, [00:02:00] writers, artists, athletes, and everything in between.

Because I do think confidence is such a fundamental foundation to how we view ourselves, how we view each other, and ultimately how we back ourselves, how we back ourselves, and our work and our ideas. And I think especially for creatives, whether willingly or unwillingly, when you're on the path of even, when you've chosen the path of being a creative, being an artist, being an entrepreneur, that requires a huge amount of self-belief and self-trust.

Because there is so much rejection, there's so much judgement , there's so much vulnerability. And I think that's why confidence does become such a big topic in spaces, particularly for creative people. Because as you say, you can be the most [00:03:00] talented writer, illustrator, poet, artist, but if you don't have the confidence to show your work, to be seen, to ask for help, to ask for money in exchange for your work, you're going to really limit yourself and limit what you're are capable of achieving.

And we know because we live in a world that is biassed. We live in a world where 90% of all people have a negativity bias towards women. means for women and folks from marginalised communities, it can be even harder to take up space in, in those ways. And that's why we need to talk about confidence.

That's why I've spent the last 10 years dedicating my every day to building what we call upfront, a confidence revolution. And of course, my new book came out a few months ago, which is all about confidence.

katie: I should have brought, I'm gonna grab it. I'm gonna grab it.

There we go. It other side of the studio. I have it. Da I. You're asking me how far I've got That's, [00:04:00] I'm not, I should be further. But what happened was I got to the bit where you were talking about imposter syndrome not existing and it blew my mind so much that I like put the book down and I was like, like it just blew my mind.

But also before, so pause that we'll come back to that loop. But the one 90% of all people, like women as well have a bias towards women.

lauren: Yes.

katie: Okay. That's interesting.

lauren: Yes. And that's a statistic from the United Nations, and it's not changed in the last 10 years, and it's 90% of all people. And when we, at upfront, when we start our bond programme, so we run courses upfront and they're called bonds, which is the collective nine for a group of women. And we start every single bond with that statistic on a slide because that is the reason why we need to talk about confidence in the context of gender.

And we need to talk about in the context of intersectionality, [00:05:00] because we are not living in a, we're not all in the same boat. We're not operating from an equal playing field. And so the characteristics that you represent have a really big impact on how people perceive your confidence and how you perceive the confidence of other people.

It's like we know that if a white man and a white woman say the exact same thing in a team meeting, that is going to be interpreted differently. And the women could be labelled aggressive and the man could be labelled a good leader for saying the exact same thing because these biases exist. And as much as that is like infuriating and makes you want to tear your hair out, I believe that like knowledge is power.

It's also very liberating once you understand, okay, this is a systemic issue, but also we have agency to change that. It's like systems are made up of people and human beings and we all, I think, have far more influence than we [00:06:00] realise to change these systems and to change the conversation so that our, you know, grandchildren's grandchildren are not having the same conversation and taking up so much time and energy and head space questioning. Am I too much? Was I arrogant? Am I too, this like constant paralysis that self-doubt can bring sometimes.

katie: Yeah, I think one of my favourite things early on when I was doing, being self-employed and setting up my illustration business was my friend Leon Dawson said what would a mediocre middle-aged man do? And it was such a good way to flip it on my head. 'cause I was like, yes I wouldn't, he wouldn't even double.

He wouldn't even think twice. He'd just be like, do it or, and I see it all the time with the when I'm sharing jobs and opportunities and things, men are, I'm always very reluctant to share like, sweeping stereotypes, but it is generally men who jump in first and, they don't tick all the boxes for the opportunity.

They're just like, oh, I'll [00:07:00] try. And I see women and trans people and queer neurodivergent people tend to hold back and doubt themselves and even message me first and be like, I'm thinking of applying for this, but I don't know if it's quite right. Or I've only been illustrating for 15 years, so I'm not really sure.

I'm like, met Dave just jumped in 30 seconds and he is not even in the same country as the job. Please just apply. And it's really hard to see because I felt that doubt myself and it's so real and it feels really flippant to be like, what would a man do? I dunno. Yeah. What's your thoughts on that?

lauren: Yeah, it's real. And all of the data backs it up. I've spent a long time, really immersing myself in the academic research that exists around and self-efficacy at work and at home. And it all backs up what you're saying. I think there's also part of the story that kind of doesn't get as much air time, which is all of the ways that we, I talk about that confidence is broken and that we are taught [00:08:00] it's something you're born with.

We're taught, it's about being loud and extroverted. We're taught that it's, power posing shoulder pads, gazing into the distance and never, never questioning yourself, never having moments of doubt. All of those narratives also harm men and boys. It just shows up for them in a different way, which is why I've written my children's book, which is of course for all children to help all children understand how gender, how we're all being tricked all the time into thinking that there's rules for boys and rules for girls.

And we also have just launched a bond for men. Another one that I love is what would your twin brother do?

katie: Ooh.

lauren: And I think they are, they're very useful thought exercises. I don't think any of us should be. Aspiring to show up in the world as someone that's different from ourselves.

But I do think just as a thought exercise in the [00:09:00] moment, they can be really useful in holding up a mirror and showing you the ways that you are not helping yourself and not backing yourself. And sometimes in those moments, that's all you need. That's all you need. And I think that's what makes the community that we've built upfront so powerful and the community you've built around your jobs board and the illustration work.

'cause people feel their cheerleaders in their army around them to be like, you are ready. You can do this. You are good enough. And that's another really important part of confidence, is understanding that it's very much about community. It's not something that happens in isolation. It's not something that, it's not a solo endeavour, it's a team sport.

And I think the culture that we live in very much reinforces solo endeavours for all the things. It's a very [00:10:00] individualistic soul genius, lone genius artist narrative that we can fall into the trap of thinking. We have to do all this by ourselves. But, community's so important for keeping your, for bringing your confidence back up when you have those inevitable moments where it gets knocked.

katie: So true. And it's, I think a lot of the time we're taught, you know, to really worry about what other people think or worry about how we're making other people feel. But I, I dunno about you, but I found it really helpful to like literally write out what is the worst case scenario if I do this thing. And often it'll be like, somebody might think X, Y, Z or somebody will say, somebody might say no.

And then when I can look at those and be like, I will actually be fine if those things happen. But it's so deep and so subconscious you must make sure other people are okay. Make sure other people feel all right and they're happy and they're not upsetting anybody and you're not stepping on anybody's toes or it's so subconscious, like I said, like you don't even realise it's going [00:11:00] on until you sit down and write a list and go, huh, okay.

lauren: Yeah. It really is. And we do see that in the data in terms of how we parent boys and girls differently. And that this message of, keep the peace, is everybody okay? How is everybody doing? Is very much put on girls in a way that it is not put on boys. And so we move through the world carrying responsibility for how other people feel, how other people might respond, might not, might react, might not react.

And one of the, one of the tools that I teach in the bond, which has helped me a lot is I think firstly to disregard this like sexy Instagram meme of I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks 'cause that's all, that's not helpful. I do care what people think. Like it does matter. And there's nothing wrong with you if you are caring and thinking and worrying about what other people think.

That's a very [00:12:00] human response to, I wanna do a good, I wanna do good work and I wanna be a good human. I think the bit that gets interesting is who are the people that you care what they think? And I have similar to your example, written a list of who those people are. It's less than 10 people. And if you are not on that list, then I don't care what you think.

katie: These.

lauren: And that can be a helpful, I think that can be a helpful way to stay true to your values, to stay true to, the people who really know me, the people who will challenge me, will hold me to account, will call me out for not backing myself for playing small. What do they think? Maybe you've got a client project, the client goes on the list, it matters what the client thinks.

Maybe you've got a collaborator for a project. They go on the list, it matters what they think. But it does not matter what [00:13:00] Jeanie, who you went to school with, moms, dentists thinks you know these people. It doesn't matter because. To put, to, to spend your time and energy on that is, is wasteful because you cannot control how other people respond to you and your art and your creativity.

For every one person that might be jealous, intimidated, irritated, annoyed, there will be a hundred people who are motivated and inspired. And as long as you can say that you showed up with integrity and you showed up in a way that was aligned with your values, then that's all you can do.

katie: Here.

lauren: Yes.

katie: That's so good. So yeah, looping back to the bit about imposter syndrome, not existing. Tell us more about that, because that is something, if I had a pound for every time somebody said, oh, I'm feeling imposter syndrome, I would be rich.

Yeah. So I would love to know about your theory on [00:14:00] imposter syndrome or lack thereof.

lauren: Yes. So the premise of how the book is written is we are unlearning old rules. And when I say that, these stories that we've inherited absorbed, some of them will be explicit and you're aware of them like the, you've got imposter syndrome and some of them you will never have thought of before.

And it'll be not until you come across it in the book that you're like, okay, maybe this is a story that I believe that's guiding things I do and decisions I make. And so each chapter starts off with the old rule, talking us through why we need to burn the old rule to the ground, what the new rule we're gonna replace that with is a new rule that's much more rooted in humanity and honesty and progress.

And then the upfront moment at the end is like, how do you actually apply that to your day next Tuesday? Like what's it going to look like day to day? And I think one of [00:15:00] the rules in the book where it gets a bit spicy is this old rule of you have imposter syndrome and the new rule is you don't have imposter syndrome.

And of course it's purposefully. Bold, because I think imposter syndrome has become a kind of blanket phrase that gets bandied around without much, without the deep understanding of the kind of context and the nuance there. So I think it's always helpful to kind of go back to like, where did this even come from in the first place?

So the I, the kind of concept and the idea of imposter syndrome came about in the 1970s. There was two psychologists who were studying high achieving women, and they noticed that many of these women, despite on paper being very successful and very accomplished, they were constantly doubting themselves despite all this evidence of their [00:16:00] success.

But the irony that's interesting is these two women studying lack of confidence in high achieving women, at no point did we say, let's look at the context. Let's look at the system these women are operating in. So the conclusion became these women have a syndrome. So we didn't look at, unequal workplaces, the constant gaslighting or undermining.

It went straight to she's got a syndrome. And I think, if they'd been studying men who behave really badly and perform poorly in leadership, no one would say he is obviously got a syndrome. They'd say, there must be something going on in the world that's making, what's causing this.

So it started as it was called the imposter phenomenon, and then that kind of morphed into imposter syndrome. And then you have a world where there's millions of women walking around thinking they've got some sort of psychological defect. I do think it has been [00:17:00] useful and helpful to give as language to label like some of the feelings that we have because language is really powerful.

When you name something you, you bring it into the light and you can talk about it, but it's almost like it's gone too far. We know 82% of all women report experiencing it and that even the word syndrome would suggest, it's medicalized in some way. But the reality is, we're navigating workplaces, industries, power structures that we're not designed for us.

And so when we feel uncomfortable in those spaces, we feel like we are the problem. For me it's like I built my first business when I was 23 straight outta university. I was the first in my family to go to university, didn't go to a private school, didn't go to a fancy university. Got a regional accent.

And I was in rooms where I was the youngest person, I was the only woman, [00:18:00] I was the only person who didn't go to private school. So the instinct is shit, I don't belong in this room because I actually don't belong in that room. It's like that room wasn't designed for people like me in mind. So that feeling is actually a very natural response to yourself outside your comfort zone, disrupting the status quo, challenging the status quo, putting yourself in spaces that you've got no business being in.

I think the bit that is interesting to talk about is self-doubt. And self-doubt is real. And I talk about it in the book, it gets such a bad rap. And I think self-doubt is a very healthy, natural part of being a human being. It's like we feel self-doubt when we're doing something new. You feel it when you're stretching yourself.

You feel it when there's high stakes, when things matter to you, when you care. To me, it's if I stopped feeling self-doubt, I would be [00:19:00] really worried because the self-doubt appears when something matters to me. The key in what I talk about in the book is how to understand and work with your self-doubt to get it to a place where it never stops you doing the thing. It's like you always do the thing. And I talk about dancing with self-doubt. It's like you're not trying to make it go away or eliminate it or squash it. You are trying to say it's okay that you're here, but I'm gonna do this anyway. Because the action part is the bit that matters. It's like becoming somebody who does the thing, despite feeling doubt, does the thing, despite feeling like an imposter.

So I think like most of the time you don't have imposter syndrome, you have self-awareness, you have high empathy, you have ambition, and you have evidence that you are doing something you've never done before. You're stretching into a new place. And [00:20:00] that's actually something to get excited about and honour.

But in that moment it can feel so, it can feel so scary. And those, those feelings are real, right? They're called feelings. 'cause we're supposed to feel them as my friend Lauren always says to me. So that's how I think about imposter syndrome.

katie: I love that. And I think it's one of the biggest things I've found as my, as life's gone on. Actually if I feel self-doubt or any kinda discomfort, it's a good thing. And I think re reframing it as that story of it's a good sign that I'm pushing myself out of my comfort zone and trying new things and going to a new a stage in my life or career or whatever.

A bit like when you're at the gym and then the next day your muscles are sore, you're like, oh, I must've done something new. I'm getting new thigh muscles. It's a good thing you don't go, oh my God, my legs are broken. What's wrong with me? You just think, okay, cool. I really worked out properly.

lauren: It's a perfect, it's a perfect metaphor, and the one that I [00:21:00] use in the book of the world is our, the world's our gymnasium, and you build confidence by doing the reps, lifting the weights, and the weights are applying for the job. You don't think you're prepared for saying the highest number, you can say out loud without laughing when somebody asks you what your day rate is, you know, whatever it might be.

It's a perfect metaphor because it is a muscle and it's something that you build through action. You can't build it sitting at a desk by yourself. You know, you need to do the things.

katie: Literally put the reps in another gym analogy here. So true. So recently it is moving on to Illustrationy art side of things 'cause I follow you on Instagram and recently I've noticed that you started sharing drawings and paintings and things, which I'm so excited about.

But how has that felt coming from a more entrepreneurial place to creating art and sharing it for the world to see?

lauren: Yeah. And I so love that you asked me this question because nobody's ever asked me this before because I guess it's [00:22:00] very new. And I, so one of the rules in the new rules in the book that I introduce is make it a big deal. It's like we're taught to don't make a fuss. It's just a little, and it's no.

Like what would happen if we made it a big deal? And, whatever that is, is up to you in the moment that you're in because it's like we spend so much time downplaying things that matter and minimising our excitement. I know for me, like I've spent a lot of my adult life trying to minimise my enthusiasm and my excitement 'cause I've got feedback from the world that's not cool or, offput.

And so a result of that is like we, we kind of brush off our achievements and we act as though being really excited about something is embarrassing. But what I've what's true to me is making this art and the kinda journey I've been on to get back to my art after, going to art school nearly [00:23:00] 20 years ago is that art is a big deal to me.

Like, it, it's, this journey has brought me a lot of joy. It is a huge part of how I process the world and how I problem solve and how I think about things. And it feels really good to be doing something. Just for the joy of doing it. There's no strategy or, ecosystem of learning. It is just I'm just making this picture and I think it's really colourful and pretty and it's made me happy to do it.

It's also, there's definitely also been discomfort there because of the, what would people, what are people gonna think? Are people gonna think I'm distracted? Are people going to think, why is she spending time on that and not spending time on her business? Are they going to think that I've lost focus? But I was having a conversation with my friend Lauren about this, and she said to me like, you are allowed to be [00:24:00] excited about more than one thing. And I like wrote it down and put it on a post-it in my wall, because I think that was the story. That was the old rule that was making this feel a bit unsafe.

katie: That's quite a masculine thing as well, isn't it? It's like you do one thing, you focus on that and you just only do that to the exception of all things. And if you talk about other stuff, it's, distract like you called it distraction. I think people appreciate seeing like a full 360 of you though, don't they?

And especially of the subject matter. 'cause you've been focusing on faces and like older faces, haven't you? I find that really interesting.

lauren: Yes. Yeah. And that, that has been, that's been, it's been super fun. Like it's a very new feeling for me to have a focus if you like. So I've always, it's oh, I like draw pictures and like doodle and whatever, but I've never had it almost feels like an obsession. I'm like so obsessed with old lady faces.

I'm like looking at them all the time, [00:25:00] looking at other people's paintings and drawings of them, drawing them and painting them myself, like having so many ideas. And then I see old ladies on the street, I'm like, oh my God, I would need to, I would want to go and take a photograph in better. And that feels very like energy giving.

And there's also a personal story there that kinda by accident it is helping me heal. The part of myself that's been taught to think that ageing is bad. Wrinkles are bad, grey hair is bad, soft skin's bad. I turn,

katie: with it though. I dunno about you, but my social media, every other advert is like collagen injectables and then people getting facelifts and stuff and it's annoying 'cause it's fascinating. So I watched like the facelift videos, but then the algorithm's oh, you like facelifts, do you like if someone, I'm like, I don't wanna see anymore facelifts.

I was just curious.

lauren: Yes, it's, mines is the exact same. It's I feel like there's women, lots of women in my feet who are [00:26:00] my age and they look 25, and that's this is not, and I don't want, it's not about shaming other women for what they choose to do to their face. But I do think there's a lot of, we are just, I feel like we're just not having the conversation we need to have about where the pressure to make that choice comes from.

And it's been fascinating to me just as like a, from a purely like scrolling neuro pathway perspective, because I am, because my feed's starting to change and I've got my Pinterest board full of my old lady faces now. When I see my own wrinkles and grey hair, I'm like, oh, that's just normal.

Whereas before I was like, oh my God, I look a hundred. This is awful. It was like exposure therapy, but it highlights how much the dominant streams are full of, very, very [00:27:00] young. Looking faces. So yeah, I'm curious to what's like your, 'cause I do have moments where I'm like, should I make a different account for my art?

That just makes me feel tired. 'cause social media is hard.

katie: No, you read like you've answered your own question because people ask that all the time and I'm always like, can you be bothered to run two accounts? No, don't do it. 'cause people follow you 'cause they're interested in you and they wanna hear what you have to say, so you might as well share your art and your business stuff.

I always think 

lauren: yeah. And it's funny 'cause that's the advice I give to people as well. It doesn't, it's not asked to me on like a, should I have an art account? But people will be like, should I have a personal account and a business account? Oh, I've got two businesses. Should I have two separate accounts? And I always say the same as you.

I'm like, until it becomes like that it's blocking opportunity or revenue for one of your businesses. Do it in one space if you can. So yeah, I think I'm going to, I'm [00:28:00] like, for now, I'm gonna keep sharing. I've just had my, it, it coincided with, I was getting my website refreshed anyway, which was like seven years overdue.

So I've got an art page on my website where people can buy prints and see all the old lady faces and choose the ones that they like. And I also just had my first show in Barcelona last week, which was incredible. And I'm so proud of myself

katie: Congratulations.

lauren: given that I live in Sweden and don't really know anybody in Barcelona.

I managed to get it all organised and also like over 20 people came,

katie: Fantastic.

lauren: of them bought prints and took prints home with them. And I'm gonna have another sh a second show in London on the 12th of July in Brick Lane. Four o'clock till six. So I don't have the link yet, but maybe by the time this comes out we can add [00:29:00] the link in the notes in the Feni in London.

You can come and see the art.

katie: That's very exciting. Why Barcelona? Because, yeah. So you live in Sweden. Did you just think Barcelona is good? I would like to there because you did book launch stuff there as well. I saw.

lauren: Yes. So the story is a classic thing that I do when I'll be like, oh, this thing's happening. Let's turn it into 10 more things. So I was going to the Primavera Music Festival with my friend. So that was all booked, and I was like, oh, I should try and I should try and do a book launch whilst I'm there. And there's an English bookshop called Backstory Bookshop, which I really love.

And I've been to Barcelona quite a few times. And last time I was there, I went to an event at Backstory Bookshop. So I emailed them and they were like, oh my God, we'd love to have you. So I was like, oh, exciting. So I'm texting my friend that like, we're just gonna go like one day early to do the book launch.

And she's like, okay, fun. [00:30:00] And then I, as you mentioned, I'd been sharing my art on my stories, and a woman called Ashley, who I've never met and don't know, messaged me saying, these would be amazing in an exhibition in Barcelona. I've got contacts there. And I was like, oh my God, I'm going to Barcelona in the first week of June.

It's already booked. I'm going to Primavera. So she was like, okay. So she introduced me to an exhibition space. And that one kind of ended up the, we didn't hear back, whatever. That was fine. And she's oh, I've got another friend who's got this really cool wine shop. And at the back of the wine shop there's like a space where people listen to records and drink wine, and I think it would be perfect there.

And so she introduced me on WhatsApp to Victor who runs the wine shop. And

katie: Victor.

lauren: Victor was like, do it. Why not? And 

katie: three. Cheers for the internet.

lauren: I know it was such a good story of you [00:31:00] just, I dunno, for me, like I think everybody's feeling it at the moment, like engagement's dropping. It's hard to feel like you're reaching people and it's even if just one person sees your post, sees the message, all it takes is one person to make an introduction, open a door,

katie: Know.

lauren: do something that you can't even think of what that thing will be.

It's like they're connecting dots and having ideas that, that you don't have access to. And that's so exciting. And the other bit that made it out, the internet is a great story obviously I was like, okay, how the hell am I gonna do this? 'cause I'm not in Barcelona and I've also never done it before.

It's what do you print? How many do you print? How do you print them? Where do you put them? So I put a call out on LinkedIn and Instagram and said I'm coming to Barcelona and I'm gonna do some events and I need some helpers. Like I need some hypers and some [00:32:00] helpers. And three amazing local women.

I, I met one of them at my London book launch. The other two I'd never met, didn't know, messaged me like, what do you need?

katie: Wow.

lauren: So one of them found me a local printer. Recommended a printer. Then once I'd sent all the stuff, she went and picked up the printing from the printer, took it back to an apartment to keep it safe.

katie: Amazing.

lauren: Then another one I had, obviously I had to ship like the packaging for the art prints that people would buy in the little stickers and the thing, the things to attach them to the walls. So got all that posted to her apartment, she took it to the wine shop and then they were just also telling lots of people, like telling colleagues and friends come along to the book launch, come along to the art show.

And so I turned up in Barcelona and go to this wine shop I've never been in and it's all just there. I was like,

katie: Wow,

lauren: that's amazing. Yeah, it was so good.

katie: And you're so right and it just take, it does just take one [00:33:00] person. And I think it's so easy to lose perspective because when it, when you see people on the internet, like it's a tiny number and you don't think about the actual human beings

lauren: No.

katie: because Yeah. Have you seen those things where it's oh, only 20 people like this, and it's like a photo of 20 people and you're like, oh, that's actually a

lauren: a lot of people. Yeah. It's imagine 20 people were sitting around your dinner table listening to your ideas. He'd be buzzing.

katie: Yeah, a hundred percent.

lauren: Yeah.

katie: Oh, I love that for you. And you just make things happen. You're backing yourself, which is what you're talking about.

Okay. So on my next, my list of organised person questions for an illustrator who is scared shitless to share their work, which is a lot of illustrators by the way, what would be your advice to them?

lauren: Buy my book, obviously.

katie: Get that one in there.

lauren: but. I think it's about, and I know this is easy to say, but it's like how do you really bring this into your [00:34:00] heart that it's not about, you can't wait to feel ready, like you need to do the thing and take action when you feel uncomfortable. It's like when you're an artist, an illustrator, there's so many moments that are going to feel awkward, like you're gonna be cringing, doubting yourself.

You are gonna be getting judged. You're going to want it to be the most perfect illustration you could ever create. And I think it's like flipping the question from, how do I get, am I confident enough to share this? To am I willing to just stay in the uncomfortableness of being an illustrator? ' cause it's like those moments of uncomfortableness are their, almost like a compass. They're pointing you somewhere important. So it's like they're gonna show up when you're, when it's not perfect. When the work's not perfect, [00:35:00] maybe the drawing feels like rough or awkward or it's just not, it's not the perfect vision you had in mind.

So most people like tear it up, start again, throw it away. But what if you just stayed with it for 10 minutes longer? What would emerge if you gave yourself permission for it to be imperfect? And like this? The other place that's going to show up is the cringing of when you're creating something that you feel has got part of yourself in it. ' cause it's going to be like, can I really say that? Can I really draw that? Maybe it feels too personal or too political. And that cringe and question and I think is very often a signal that you are doing work that is deeply, deeply compelling and important. And then the most common one, which we've kind of talked about, touched on already, this kinda fear of being seen in the fear of being [00:36:00] judged. Yes, it is a real fear, but it's very, very possible to get to a place where you take action despite that fear and a little story for you. 'cause I think it's so easy to look at me, look at the book, look at my Instagram page, hear this conversation and think, oh this is all easy for her. She's an extrovert.

She's got it all figured out. She's got her face and her work all over the internet. For the first 10 years of being online, I did all my work under a pseudonym and it was red jotter, which like Scottish word for notebook. And my avatar was a red fingernail because I was absolutely sick to my stomach, terrified, sweating to use my name or show my face.

katie: Interesting.

lauren: And people don't believe me when I tell them that now. 'cause now I'm like, gimme a stage, gimme a microphone. Like it's my favourite place to be. But it's taken me a lot of years and a lot of [00:37:00] work to get there. So I really do understand how scary it can feel, how uncomfortable it can feel. But I will need you to like post the illustration, share the sketch, send the portfolio, show your work before it's perfect.

And yes, when your brain goes, what will people think? It's like, think back to what Katie and I said earlier who matters? Who do you really care what they think? . Like, how can you be comfortable with the nerves that come before you press publish a bit longer? And maybe this week you'll stay there for five minutes longer. Maybe the week after you'll stay for 10 minutes longer.

It's back to what we've talked about of that gym analogy. It's like you're building up your tolerance for that discomfort. And it comes with practise, and it comes with doing it. And my God, we need your art. As Amy McNee says she's written one of my favourite books called We Need Your Art.

katie: That one as well on the shelf.

lauren: oh, it's so good. We need your art so much. [00:38:00] And it really matters, especially now with all this AI slop schlepping around the internet. It's I wanna see real art from real humans. I wanna see your mistakes, your process, your sketchbooks, delicious.

katie: Don't you feel like that stuff shines out even more brightly now that there's AI things? 'cause even writing, like when I read something that's written and there's not a hint of ai, I'm like, oh yes. And I just like greatly gobbling it up. This is somebody's real actual words. And same with write like with images.

If they're real and if they've got that, what you mentioned, somebody feeling a bit vulnerable, there's a bit of themselves in it. When that's in there as well, I'm like, oh yes. Give me more of that. It's so good because that is the really compelling stuff. We don't want the glossed over slick perfect thing

lauren: Perfect. People are boring. I'm so bored of learning. I don't wanna learn from perfect people, like I wanna learn from people who are figuring it [00:39:00] out, who are making mistakes.

katie: Best way to learn, I reckon. Thank you so much, Lauren. This has been fantastic, and I will put all the links and everything below so people can come and find you and see all your bits and pieces. But yeah, this has been brilliant.

lauren: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a joy.