Incredible Comrades | A conversation with Hal and Debbi Perkins

Wow, just wow. Ashley and I both were blessed to sit and hear Hal and Debbi share their profound philosophy and wisdom on parenting. Whether you are a parent or not, I really think you'll be blessed to listen in on this conversation.

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

This episode is sponsored by Super Summer Challenge. Whether you have one hour a week, one day a week, or 12 full weeks with your kids this summer, Super Summer Challenge is here to help you make the most of every minute. Our book, templates, online workshop, and personalized coaching will help you create more unplugged, purposeful, and intentional moments this summer. Instead of fighting against boredom, electronics all day long, or the crazy busy swirl of activities, Supersummer Challenge will help your kids learn new skills, build confidence, and strengthen family relationships. Find more at SupersummerCallenge.com. Hi friends, welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast. Today I am thrilled to introduce you to Al and Debbie Perkins. They are actually the parents of our pastor at Radiant Church in Kansas City. And today's podcast for me, the time with them sort of felt epic. I don't know if it's going to translate exactly to your years as it was to ours and in our hearts, but Ashley and I just so appreciated not only the presence that Hal and Debbie carry, but their their tender-heartedness, their wisdom, and their insight for loving Jesus better and loving our kids better in the process. So whether you are a parent or will be in the future, I think you will really um appreciate the the wisdom from Hal and Debbie and also the stories too that are entertaining along the way. And just to give a little heads up, Hal and Debbie had um a surprise triplets um their first time around, followed by uh Dan um a few years later, and all four of their kids are impacting lives through ministries um that are really worldwide. So I hope that you will take time to listen to today's podcast and be sure as well um to read How's Book, If Jesus Were a Parent. We refer to it a few times um during our conversation and they share a few bits and pieces. And um there's one story that they allude to that you can find in the book as well. Um you can find it um on Amazon.com. We'll be sure to link in the show notes of where you can find if Jesus Were a Parent, coaching your child to follow Jesus by Hopkins. But all of that to say, I got I have seen them, you know, they're the fruit of your, you know, labors and all of that. And that's why I know having you guys here sharing your stories. There's I really want people to listen. If you have kids, if you want to be a parent someday, this is worth listening to.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

So my interest has piqued already because you just you said even using the word positive to do this in a positive way. That's I am very interested in knowing how to be, because I feel like so much of what I do is has to be reactive because here's this discipline issue or here's this thing. And so my big struggle is how can we flip this to where it feels positive and even and I've heard so many different ideas of how to use even scripture with your kids, and there's some that say, Oh, we never use it in a in a corrective, like if you're in a corrective, you know, because you don't want to say, Oh, God's disappointed in you. But then but then there it is instructive. So then using it in a way that is instructive, but not so heavy.

unknown 3:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

And so I'm really interested in how you've accomplished this in a way that feels positive and if you said fun.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

If there's time for Debbie to tell the David story, that illustrates it. And or we can even talk to that. That's it's huge. And it's all of the above. And so are we, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

Yeah, yeah. Well, I want to start off, have you guys kind of introduce yourselves um because I, you know, I I get to do a little intro, so you know, our audience has a little bit of idea of who you are, but um, go ahead and just share um your Helen Debbie Perkins and your kids and your journey in ministry and life here so far.

SPEAKER_04 4:05

Well, um, among other things, I'm the mother of triplets, and I didn't know I was gonna have triplets till after the third one was the second one was born. Oh my and are you serious? I'm a mother of triplets plus one, and I am richly, richly blessed. Um, I don't know if that's how I define myself, but that's one of the things that's germane to this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you have the triplets. Now, who was born first, David, right?

SPEAKER_04 4:32

Yes, and then Dana, Dana, and then Deborah, and then Dan. And Dan. So we got glorious D's here.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

And then Debbie and Daddy. Yes. That was good. Like intentional, right? That's right. Okay. All right. So you all have been married how many years?

SPEAKER_04 4:49

48. 48.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

48.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Wonderful. Love it. And you guys have been in ministry all of your married years? Tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Over 40 years as a pastor.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

And the last seven years we have traveled nonstop to over six we've done over sixty conferences per year.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

For seven years. We're that's why we're never around.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

And uh we're and we're just we love what we do. We do basically four different conferences. I don't know if it's germane, but people often will ask us to do a parenting conference, and I said, Well, really, what we need is a a conference on being a disciple. Yeah. Because parents try to do little things with their kids, and that is not of the essence. What is of the essence is who the parents are. So it's their being an authentic, credible disciple of Jesus. And so so we typically do two conferences at a church before we've been introduced parent or parenting or discipling their kids. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

I love that. Well, some of the things that we want to get, we just we love stories, and um I I think they illustrate the point and illustrate how you guys have lived your life so intentionally. And you've you've got a lot of theology and reasoning behind it that is really grounded in the word of God in Christ um and his example. So I want to make sure I hit all on that. Um for for us currently, Ashley has a 19-year-old, but also has three kids similar ages to mine, um, like 11, 10, you know, nine, seven, somewhere in there. So we kind of wanted to start it out with the early years. And um, I know when I was asking David, you know, I get to have the honor of, you know, having your parents here, and I want to just kind of hear their hearts on parenting and the perspective and give us, you know, some lend us some great wisdom and advice. Um for you guys, what's one of the stories with one of your kids that stands out to you the most in those kind of those elementary years that you know kind of formed um parenting that?

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Let me throw the ball to Debbie, but prelude it by saying, um I'll ask you to just tell about the the ma the story we often tell. But we we m we met with them as a group and trained them in how to relate to Jesus so that when difficulties arrived, we already had language, we had history, we had experience. It was normal to think about, talk about, include Jesus. But uh I'll ask Debbie to tell this story because it's what came out of my weekly meeting with each one of the kids, which we were determined because of the way Jesus made disciples, and I was convicted as a pastor to make disciples, and we had triplets, and I want to name Peter, James, and John through some historical things I won't talk about here. But um what what we did, what I did with David in this story that Debbie will tell is illustrative of what every child desperately needs, a parent who lives with them where the child's life is their curriculum. So that's background to that.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

Well, and I also want to say before I tell the story is that Jesus was a real person in our family. He wasn't one we just heard stories about. He was a real person. When Dan was like three or four years old, he said, Mommy, is Jesus' last name Perkins? Oh gosh. And that's great. All day long, Jesus was a part of everything we did. And I think that is one of the key things that has carried them. When Deborah had wanted to play at recess and some other kids didn't want to play, she'd say, Okay, Jesus, what are we gonna play today? Because uh Jesus was a real person.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

So Or when Dana got diagnosed, and then we found the intergeneral, go ahead and tell that.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

When when Dana got diagnosed with um a fatal disease, um she she you can read that in the book. She wrote to Jesus. She had already, she was nine and she'd already knew how to process that with Jesus, take it to Jesus and know what he thought and dialogue with him. And because Jesus was a real person, and we're gonna go through this together, Jesus, and I and it's gonna be okay because you're with me.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

And we had intentionally trained them in how to look at, know, see, listen to, dialogue about life with Jesus. Wow. And then they could do it journaling.

SPEAKER_04 9:22

So I have permission to tell you this story. Uh David quit growing in the second grade. And he was a triplet, so when his sisters got taller, we thought, oh, you know what? Girls grow faster than boys, and and so I didn't do anything about it till he was in the fifth grade. When he was in the fifth grade, I finally took him to the doctor and he got diagnosed with hypothyroidism. We immediately got him on some medication. He lost 30 pounds of fluid and then we moved. We moved from a little tiny town in Idaho to big city, Oklahoma City, and he walked into a middle school of 1,500 kids looking like a first grader.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Oh, that's hard. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 10:03

Do you know what they do to kids that look like first graders in middle school? They pull his hair, they called him names, they'd stuff him in the locker. Oh, wow. And our outgoing effervescent son that you know became quiet and sullen and angry. He'd come home from school, he'd go up to his room, and he'd just slam the door. But because we had met with our children, and because we knew that Jesus had asked us asked us to make disciples of our children, we already had Hal had been taking them out all of this time. So having a heart-to-heart, a one-on-one with them was already established before this crisis came. When Deborah was 18, someone said, Who's the most influential person in your life? And she said, Oh, it's my dad. Because he takes me out each week and he asks me questions, listening for the cracks in my heart. Oh gosh. And when he finds the cracks, he pours in love and truth. So that was already established with David before this crisis. So Hal would come home and he'd go up and he'd knock on that bedroom door. Now I'll make this sound like it happened once, but it happened day after day after day. Hal would come home and he'd knock on the door. And then David would come out, and then Hal would get down on one knee so that he could look at him eyeball to eyeball. And he'd say, What's the matter, pal? Nothing. That's what you say in middle school. They they make funny again today. Yeah. Can can you tell me what they did? And little by little David would tell up to fifteen things that had happened in one day. I mean, one time they took his clothes during P. E. so he had to wear his P.E. clothes to glass. I mean, they did mean things. Fifteen. One day. And by the time that he's told all these fifteen things, Hal is crying. And he puts his arm around David and he goes, Who loves you, pal? You do, Dad. Oh, you know I do. I love you. And I believe in you. And whatever you have to go through, pal, we're gonna go through it together. But pal, my love really isn't that important. Who really loves you? Jesus. Do you really believe that? Is Jesus a real person? Does Jesus have feelings? What does he think about? And he would work it into David's heart until eventually David would get his shoulders back and his head up, and as he tells his story, he would walk up and down those middle school halls, and he'd be thinking, Jesus loves me. Jesus loves me. Jesus loves me. And that's when our young son became a man of God. Because he wasn't going to be a slave to the opinions of others. They weren't going to determine his value. They weren't going to determine how important he was. They weren't going to determine his significance. No, no, no, no. I love Jesus. Jesus loves me. I win. I love Jesus. And Jesus loves me. I'm successful. I love Jesus. And Jesus loves me. And that's enough. And no, I think you know a lot of the rest of the story. How God's used him in mighty, mighty ways. Yeah, it's amazing. And I know as a mom that for a boy at twelve, it could have gone either way. Yeah, absolutely. It needed someone to put his arm around a devastated heart. Right. Someone to ask the questions, to find the cracks, and pour in love and truth.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

That's beautiful. I I think two things when you say that. One, you you realized or made clear that this wasn't one day. And so speak to that and also speak to something else you said, I'm not gonna articulate it perfectly, but just how you you kept saying you sat with him in that despair and you didn't you didn't leave him there. You you had him to be able to come out of that. Could you just speak to how you kind of cultivated that and worked it? I think you say you worked it into his heart. And I I think that's really a a profound thing for us as parents.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Yeah it's time. It's huge. It won't happen probably in the emergency. Because I took Dave at four o'clock every Tuesday for many years. That was his time. Doesn't sound too profound, but it was on the calendar. Most important employment of the day. None others took place of that. And if if we weren't through at five thirty, we went till six.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

And if we went through at six gone.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

And it was not my goal to teach him. I taught him, we taught him all day long. We at he was a pastor's kid, so he had to listen to sermons and more than he wanted, and we had the family times, but that was not a time for me to teach him. It was a time for me to listen to him.

SPEAKER_04 15:48

Did you catch all the questions? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

It was the time for me to find out about what had happened to him in the past. Jesus got to be with Peter, James, and John all day long. I couldn't be with my son all day long. So I had to have the relationship with him where I could ask the question and he would tell me the truth about what happened. And what happened to him was never the issue. It's his response.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

So I would listen to the story and then ask what he thought or what he felt or what he wanted or how he reacted, what he did. And then because of my certainty of his at that age, we had this had to be established, but at that age he was deeply committed to being a Christ follower.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

So then it was fairly easy to say, okay, here's what you said or here's what you thought or felt. We do trust Jesus, right? Oh yeah. Okay, well let's let's try to think what does Jesus think about you? Are your thoughts about you right now when the kids are hitting you and pulling your hair? Are your thoughts the same about yourself as Jesus' thoughts are about you? What does Jesus want for you? Do you agree with Jesus? Do you trust Jesus or are you gonna rely on your own understanding? These are real simple concepts once you get them. And then of course, to make the exchange that I'm gonna think about myself, not what the kids think about me. But what Jesus thinks, we preach about it all the time, but we don't get it.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

It's hard. We don't help them practice it. Many of us can't practice it. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

That's right, that's right. It's hard. And it had to be formed, not just informed, but formed over and over until he could say Jesus loves me.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

And understand it.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

And and then of course the big deal is, okay, so what are we gonna do in the future? How are we gonna think and what are we gonna do based on what Jesus thinks and what he wants because our faith is in him and we do love him and so we choose to follow him and represent him. I just said a bunch there, but that's not all that hard to learn and there are nuances and there's more, but that's the big general picture. It's just listening to them, getting the place where they will talk to you. I say jokingly, if you start when they're three, it'll cost you an ice cream cone.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

If you wait till they're ten, it's a new dress.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Fifteen, it's a BMW. But whatever the cost.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

The earlier the better. Yeah. And the issue is not to teach, the issue is to listen. It's to ask questions and to know.

SPEAKER_04 18:51

Why don't you give the questions about what do you think, or what did you think about that, or what do you think I think? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

That sequence, well, typically, um sorry, I'm rehearsing this, but typically I didn't want to race right to Jesus. Yeah. As either the good cop or the bad cop. So I would say, okay, that happened. What do you think? And I would get his thoughts, or what do you want? Then I would say, Okay, d do you know what I think? But you think this dad. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:25

That's a powerful question. Yeah, and that's good.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

And then I would say, What do you think about what I think? And in so doing, I just flipped it. If I d ask him to judge his own thoughts, so what do you think? And then I say, So what do you think about what you think? That's good. But but then he has to evaluate his own behavior or thoughts. But if I get him to think about what I think, and and typically they know it, you tell them once they get it. Yeah. You tell them twice they think that you think they're dumb. Right. You tell them three times they know you're dumb because you haven't figured out yet that they got it the first time. But find out so I would say, What do you know what I think? And he would usually know, and I then I could say, So what do you think about what I think? And now he's judging me rather than me judging him. He's evaluating my thoughts. And so it's safer. Yeah. That may not be important. That's just something I And then one more.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

No, I think it's worth I'm gonna listen to this and write it down. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

And and then then I would always say, Well, actually, w we both know it doesn't really matter what I think. The real the one we really trust, the opinion we really trust is Jesus. Do you know what Jesus thinks? But I'd softened it. I didn't go right to Jesus. I came through me and built the clarity and often it would be. So do you think what I think is what Jesus thinks? Because r uh I want what I think to be Jesus' thoughts. Do you think I think I'm thinking Jesus thoughts about you or about the kids who are hitting you? So okay, we've got the truth now. That's what Jesus thinks, because he's the truth. Okay, can we can we change our thinking to agree with Jesus? It's called repentance. We don't use I mean, but over, but it doesn't happen once. It happens over and over. But kids can't kids proverb says, above all else, guard your heart because everything you do flows from it. Kids don't know how to do this. Who's gonna coach them to do what we take for granted? We assume in our preaching that people get it. They understand it on the spot, but they don't do it out there.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Because we haven't done it with the little things, like you talk about, you know, that ice cream cone when they're three, when the biggest thing is their little brothers taking their toy.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Um, or they don't like it when mommy leaves them at Sunday school, whatever it is, that you know, those seemingly insignificant moments that lead up to the you know, be able to hand handle something as you described that David had to walk through. Yeah. And those really tender junior high years. Yep. That's huge. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

We wish we could pass this to every parent.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Absolutely. It's called making disciples, not just talking at them.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Yeah. I think that's a huge key. And now that's some of what you talk about in the book. I mean, you I I think everyone needs to read this book again if they're going to be a parent. Or if they are a parent. Uh talk about too, because you mentioned at the beginning the idea of the um like the big group of discipling. You talked about the one-on-one. You kind of gave an an insight to what the one-on-one looks like, but you know, as a family, as a whole, the discipleship.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Yeah. And it doesn't have to be the whole family, it's just as effective one-on-one. But it's also there's benefits and values in doing it as a whole group. Were you gonna jump in? Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

That's all right. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

So because of my conviction that w these were my primary, this was my primary ministry. You have triplets, that'll kinda get your attention. Uh yeah. Um I tried to do with them what I had studied that I saw Jesus doing with his disciples, and I tried to take it out of Jesus' life and I turned it into principles and then try to apply it in our life today. So one of the the first level, what I described, what Debbie described and gave you a picture of is what I call the second level where they're the curriculum. The first level, for each individual and as a group, we attempted to coach them in how to relate to Jesus. We say Jesus is the curriculum. So what we would do, and I won't go through all the theory, it's a whole book. But but we would start at dinner each night. And Debbie wonderfully, like clockwork, had dinner ready, and we don't do that so well now. But but we had a quiet place that it was on our calendar. This was didn't happen if it worked out. This was priority. Time was Jesus priority, time individually, time together. But this was priority that our family met every night, Monday through Friday, at 5 30. We just did it. Got harder as the kids got older and we had to make some adjustments. But the early years were the shaping years. And we fought for it. And we sometimes tried to substitute. They said we can't be at 5 30. Well, okay, when are we gonna meet? Because the coming together was not to eat dinner. Coming together was to be with Jesus together.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

It was huge. That that was our thinking. And we weren't perfect, obviously, no one is, but we had some s little tricks. So so we would start very thoughtful prayer. No, okay, thank you, Jesus, for this food. Very thoughtful, Jesus. We wouldn't have this apart from you.

SPEAKER_04 24:36

Jesus, you are here. You're here with us.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

And we get to meet sorry. We get to meet with you now. And so then the first thing was, okay, let's tell the good things that happened today. Very intentional, because every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of Heavenly Lights. So therefore, if we can identify the good things and we really believe James one, then we can see what the Lord did. We can see God's hand at work in our lives. So as the kids would go back and reflect first on what happened around them was good, but after a while it became accountability for things we'd committed to doing all day long. And we report the good things that the Lord God done through us.

SPEAKER_04 25:19

And I don't know that we realized that at the time, but they were cultivating spiritual eyes. They began to see the activity of Jesus in ways that if we hadn't had this at dinner time, they were looking at it. And so when good things happened, oh Jesus saved it just for me. It was it was just kind of the response of seeing what Jesus was doing all day long.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

But did you guys talk about this intentionally ahead of time? Because there's a little carrying of the conversation that has to happen between you guys as well.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Oh yes. Every Monday was our day together. That was my day off. And Debbie graciously, thoughtfully, brilliantly, did not demand of me what many wives demand of their husbands because I was I worked too many hours a week in the church. I did 70 plus hours a week in the church. Monday was our day off, and Debbie would take care of things or see the things we're taking care of that many times, some and we would just leave. But the big conversation all day long on Monday was our own relationship with the Lord, our relationship with each other, and then how we were helping the kids. And so we we were very intentional and purposeful in plotting where the kids were, what we needed to adjust. They were it it wasn't about the house so much, it wasn't about a bunch of stuff that we usually get caught up in temporal things. It was about our kids' relationship with Jesus and their relationships with us and each other and their peers. So that was a big part of our conversation.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Yeah, it would send the foundation for the week and then all the conversations going forward.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

And Debbie would keep a list of things. We you know, we had dinner together at night, but the kids were there, but she would keep she would write down a list of things that we would talk about all day Monday for the family, the organization called the family. And so I was kind of the I don't know, I was kind of the whatever I was, and I delegated and she'd she'd handle it or f or write down what to do, and then we'd talk about it and figure out what to do, and then individually or both implement. So this m meeting around dinner time, huge, we would say, Okay, let's talk about the good things, and so someone would say something good, and we would say, Okay, did the Lord have anything to do with that? I don't know. Well, it says that every good thing comes from him. So, what did the Holy Spirit did did he make those people say that? No. Well, but they said something good. Well, did he give them the idea? Does he talk to us? Oh, yeah, all the time. And I won't go on him, but but that dinner time was talking about what Jesus did by his spirit, and then that would lead us into who he is, and we could talk and praise and worship Jesus out of our experience from that.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Your ordinary day.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

There's no ordinary days. Right because God is with us all the time. So and then after dinner, we'd just throw the dishes in the sink and get out our Bibles. And sometimes during dinner, but mostly during the dinner time, I would get my big jar of all my change I would bring, and this is a whole big story. But we'd open the Bible and we would go straight through a book in the Bible. We would only take one word or one sentence or one paragraph, and we'd teach them what it to just to read it, but then to hear Jesus speak it to them and then talk back. And if they if they anytime they'd give a good answer, I'd slide a nickel or a quarter to them and I should. Oh yeah, well yeah. And it works. And they didn't get an allowance because there ain't no free lunch. But if they work, then I figure, you know, your f you'd pray your father will reward you. And so that was just part of the how Jesus would parent.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

Well, when we got to the scripture and we personalize it so that they put their name in it. So it's a dialogue with Jesus. And Deborah said this is the most important thing we taught her was how to dialogue with Jesus through the scriptures. Um, I'll give you an example. Dear Debbie, I want you to trust me with all your heart. I don't want you to lean on your own understanding in all your ways. Acknowledge me and watch. I'll direct your path. Oh Jesus, I want to trust you. I can trust you with this, this, and this, but Jesus, you know I'm struggling to trust you with this. And Jesus, I want to acknowledge you in all my ways, but I keep forgetting. Holy Spirit, please remind me. And I just talk back to him about what he's just said. And that's what we taught them to do. And they they started writing it out even in in the second grade. As soon as they could start writing, they would just take one little verse and they would dialogue with Jesus through the scriptures. Jesus is a real person. Yeah. He's talking to me.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

We weren't studying the Bible, we were listening to Jesus talk to us.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Big difference.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

So good.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

And then talking and dialoguing around. So and then in the morning, so that's what we would do as as a family. That's our conversation. Our kids grew up later and would say to us, our family's weird. We're not like anyone else. Uh huh. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

We were very into in the morning. I would for s quite a few years I would take them to school, and that's when we would talk about the future. Okay, Lord, what do you want to do through us today with the kids that we're with? Who the problem? Okay, and then we'd pray for them to be missionaries, pray for them, and then they'd get specific things they were gonna do that day proactively to serve, love, bless, give, help. And then we'd come back to dinner at night and say, Okay, what good things happened. Now they've got something specific to talk about. And ideally it wasn't about what they did, but if it was good, it's what the Lord enabled them to do, but wouldn't have done without them.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

And so then we get to see God work in our and through our lives. And so they grew up.

SPEAKER_04 31:06

In the story that I was telling about David, um, they would come together and he'd say, What do you think the Lord wants us to do? Oh, first he said, Um, would you consider those kids that are doing that to you an enemy? Uh yeah. Wow, what was it that Jesus said we should do with our enemies? Love them, wow, bless them, pray for them. Wow. What would that look like for you to go back to school and love those kids that are doing that to you? And they would come up with ways that he could go back and love his enemies. But he'd already been doing it at this family time about planning your ministry for what's gonna uh what we're gonna do tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Equipping the saints for the work of the church.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

That is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

And I think accountability.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

I love too how how you guys chose to handle that. And this is not saying that, you know, if you had pulled David out at that time and homeschooled him, that that would have been wrong. But how you you still you just equipped him to go ahead and face the challenge that he had instead of removing it from him. You taught him how to go ahead and push through it.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Or instead of going to the principal and saying they're picking on us.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

Uh I know Mama Bear over here would have had a hard time, I can tell you. Yeah. As a parent.

SPEAKER_04 32:24

And people were very, very sensitive to his strength to go back. Yeah. If he hadn't had the strength to go back, we would have taken some of these other alternatives. That's right. But we knew he was strong enough. And um you have to get out of the greenhouse sometime.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Yeah, well, and you you had equipped him to that point. This wasn't new territory. That's right. You had, you know, what you had cultivated all those years was ready to be, you know, to start growing.

SPEAKER_04 32:54

When Dana got diagnosed with uh the her fatal disease, she said, and her dad said to her, Now I get to practice what we've been talking about.

unknown 33:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 33:04

That's amazing. Wow. All these years we've been talking about the hard times. Now I get to practice. Wow. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

And see, we don't rejoice in the Lord always or give thanks in everything or pray without ceasing. We do our thing on Sunday morning and then we forget and live pretty much like lost people. We're not as bad. And we we do some things different, but we don't have relationship. That's why we need to coach parents. Yeah. The church can't the church can't train kids. They don't have them for an hour or two a week. We've got to train them in relationship with not only God, but with others.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

We can only partner with parents to try to help give tools and equipment, reinforce what's going on at the end. Good language.

SPEAKER_04 33:46

I gotta just put the end of the story. Dana had that diagnosis for 17 years, and then the doctor said it was a misdiagnosis. Wow. Anyway, I just wanted to know she's not on the way to fatality right now. I got 15 years back into that.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

At one of the best hospitals, children's hospitals in the country.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

Misdiagnosed. Well maybe she's still alive. Yes. David mentioned one other story, because I think this is important. I mean, we we talked about kind of in junior high and all of that, but as we head into the high school years, that can that's kind of a make or break. You're letting out the rope a little bit more with your kids. They're still under your house. So there's still discipleship, you know, one-on-one discipleship able to happen. And which I'd love to highlight like the fact that you put it on your calendar to do those dates with your kids. We call them dates in our house, but that you put them on the calendar and you mostly ran that one. That wasn't that was dad.

SPEAKER_04 34:46

Mine were the spontaneous ones. From the grocery seven o'clock. Yeah. Go to the mall. On Saturdays, it would be, you know, wasn't even planned, but it would be two hours with this daughter and then two hours with this, two hours. I mean, I put it in a meeting a day. Yeah. Yeah, no, totally.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Hers were fun. Mine were work.

SPEAKER_04 35:03

But you know that's intentional and strategic.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Yeah, because I think as the mom, we do a lot of work things with our kids, the practicals of preparing and dressing and some training. But did the discipleship from dad and then getting to do some fun things with mom? I just I I love that. So I think that's really good. But high school, you know, we get to s start judging some of our fruit, you know, not not everything. It's a lot of free will at play here. Um but I know that your kids had a lot of opportunity and a lot of freedom, and you guys, um, it wasn't necessarily the rules, it was about relationship and the discipleship.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

So share one of those stories of how about if I give the principle and if Debbie wants to tell some stories. We've got the stories. Our goal was to have them be free starting their senior year, that we would never again give them a rule or govern them. That was the goal. That's good. So the last so their first time of having freedom wouldn't be out at in a university frat house or their own little with their friends. But they actually were free, but we were around.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

We actually didn't ever have to go there. They were free most of the time, their high school year. We I won't go through four sequences uh that we that's in the book instantly. But we've unintentionally developed four sequences. And again, it comes out of these conversations we had on Mondays. But the the the big principle that the I'm thinking of one particular situation where we're just vivid, but I knew that one of our kids was being faced with horrendous challenges that that if if um that I could legislate behavior, but I couldn't legislate the heart. Yes. And I also knew that that if the heart wasn't right, that there could be a thousand ways to get around my legislation of behavior.

SPEAKER_03 37:11

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

I'm talking in the generalities here. Right. But so I made a choice and I said, okay, I want to give you freedom someday. I'm willing to give you freedom today. I'll never again tell you what you must do or cannot do upon a condition. And the condition is with the integrity of your relationship with God, and there's a lot of relationship with the Lord and with me, you will not hide one thing from me. You'll tell me not only what you did, but why you did it, what you were thinking, what you were feeling. You'll open your heart to me and you'll let me ask you questions about your thoughts, your desires, your behaviors, or even give you my perspective, but then you'll be stuck with making the choice. I won't tell you what to do. But if we can have the conversation, I trust you enough that if you let us talk about it, you'll end up doing the right thing. And that person said, deal. Wow. And I said, Okay, and we operated from that perspective. But that came out of years and years and years of dialogue.

SPEAKER_03 38:40

Right, it wasn't new. You knew you had their heart and you had open dialogue.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

But but it was it was a gamble. Risky, very risky. But it worked. And and it was massive in how it worked. Massive. I mean, I mean, that person says it saved your life.

SPEAKER_03 38:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

I don't know if that was so general that it doesn't make any value. But it was very valuable. I mean, that we had so much relationship and I that I felt right about doing that.

SPEAKER_04 39:11

David thought our book should be called a comra uh a family of friends because we were such comrades in in following Jesus. Let me just back up a little bit to when David was ten, and this is another David story, but uh He doesn't mind, he shares most of them. He was uh on the city soccer team, and he was all excited, ran to his dad to tell him that we get to go on a conference and we get to get on a bus and we get to go three days away. He was 10 years old, and did I say that? And um and he was just all excited, and and he says we play on Friday and Saturday, and then and then the winners get to play on Sunday, and he was just pumped. And his dad just said, Oh, oh question. What what he what do you usually do on Sundays? Oh, I uh I go to church, dad, but if we don't play on this on Saturday, then we can't play on Sunday and da-da-da-da-da. Wow, what do you think about that? Well, I I I I think that I should be a part of the team. I I should do what the team and the coach want me want me to do. Okay, okay. Well, pal, I'm just gonna let you make the decision on what you do on Sunday. That's gonna be your decision to make. And um I know that there's a a church there that you could go to, and if you want to, that would be something that you could do, but but it's your decision. So David went. David played, they won. On Saturday, it's time to play the Sunday morning game. And he goes up to one of the other guys on the team that went to his church and he goes, Hey Todd, yeah, you want to go to church with me today? And uh, my dad gave me the number of the pastor in case I wanted to go. Todd said yes. And they went to church. Well, he'd already called the pastor, the pastor called him up in front of the church in their uniforms. Oh, I get it. And interviewed them. And the people were weeping because they knew what the boys had said no to in order to saying yes to what they felt Jesus wanted them to do. Mom and Dad, we went to the trophy store. We got a big trophy, and we put on it man of integrity and gave him a trophy. And it was so fun when he called and said, Hey Mom, I want to show Dawson my my trophies. Can you bring me my trophies, Mom? Mm-mm-mm.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

And the happy little ending is that it was a semifinal on Sunday morning. They didn't play, but they won and played in the afternoon for the championship, and the coach didn't penalize the boys for missing Sunday morning. He actually let them play in the championship game, which is a nice little chair.

SPEAKER_04 42:04

But I'm just saying this I'm I'm just wanting to show the incremental way. It's not an all or nothing. Right. It's on the little things. You let them make the decision, and you trust them. They have to pay the consequences, you know, eventually.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

But yeah, we were just talking this about this this morning, but that gift of failure idea where you allow them, you know. I had someone wondering about m my decision to let my boy wear black pants, you know, and a long sleeve shirt, and it's gonna be 100 degrees outside for VBS, you know? And so it's like, you know, those little things, and you know, he's almost seven, and we've had this conversation many times, and it it seems sort of silly, but it was like, yeah, I, you know, at some point there's things like these where they just have to he's gonna just win it out, decide if that was worth it or not for his taste of fashion that morning. And it sounds so silly, but I I would like to think that as we get older I can use that sort of judgment call for the important things and hopefully they make the right one.

SPEAKER_04 43:06

And as parents, our responses to what they do and think is very, very important. And I was so appreciative of my husband who helped both of us to try to respond like Jesus would respond.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:21

In each situation. And so, um, if I could, I want to tell one more. Yeah, please. Yeah, we love it. I think we're doing great. Uh I there was one I I guess I'll identify her.

unknown 43:33

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 43:34

Um Deborah always thought she was the one that always got in trouble.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Everybody like David and Deborah have always have one of those, right?

SPEAKER_04 43:42

And so uh this is how she tells the story as an adult. So she would say, I would make a mistake, and I would hear my dad. He was in the dining room, and he'd be calling, Hey Deborah, Deborah, come here. And I go That and he'd be down on one knee and I'd pull myself in front of him. And the first thing he would do is he would put his arms around me and try to hug me. And she said, I would pull away and pull away. Just dad, just spank me now. Just get this over with. Don't love me now. And Hal would do it because Jesus loves us.

unknown 44:23

He doesn't force.

SPEAKER_04 44:24

He doesn't force his love. So he would open up his arms and she'd fall to the floor. Right. And now she's doubly humiliated. So she said, I would get up and I'd look at it. And he'd say, Look at me. Look at me.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

And not with a tone of a superior to an inferior, but lower than her on my knees looking up to her saying. That's important.

SPEAKER_03 44:47

Look at my eyes. That's huge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:49

Tone is everything. It is everything. Tone is everything. And she said I would look into his eyes and the first words out of his mouth every time. I love you. I believe in you. Now let's talk about what just happened.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

And it's not your problem, it's our problem because we're one.

SPEAKER_04 45:15

And she says, I remember the day when his arms were around me and I'm looking into his eyes. And he goes, Look, you're not resisting me. And she said, That was the day I got it. My dad loves me even when I mess up. Wow. Even when I make a big mistake, he still loves me. And she says, That's the day I got it. That when I mess up, I can run to Jesus instead of from Jesus. Wow. Wow.

unknown 45:48

That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 45:49

It is.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

So it's all about who we are in the Lord. Much, much, much, much more than the little gimmicks we do. Not gimmicks, but the little strategies.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

But it becomes gimmicks when we're not centered properly. Boom. It does. And then they don't work.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Precisely.

SPEAKER_03 46:07

Right. And it's a constant struggle. I might be caught in that cycle a little. Yeah. You may both have to be.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

It takes lots of intentionality. And it's really great when the spouses are together really hard.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

If the spouse is a single or spiritually single. Yeah. And we they really need extra help.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

Yeah. Yeah, not impossible. And I can see just I mean, even with the amount of hours in comparison that I get compared, you know, compared to my husband, we can be on the same page, but it even if it was just me, they could glean this. They could glean Jesus from me if I if I'm getting this from the Lord.

SPEAKER_04 46:46

And and so And I just want to say for those that are listening, it's never too late. Yeah, that's good. The things that we're talking about and you didn't start when they were three and four and five, it's never too late. We have great stories where parents began doing it and their children were in their thirties. And within a year, the uh the those that were in rebellion in their thirties came back to Jesus and now are helping other people follow Jesus. It's never too late.

unknown 47:17

That's so important.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

And the parents say, I beg you to forgive me, and the kids say, Well, you didn't do anything wrong. The parents say, I took you to church, but I didn't know how to disciple you. Would you give me another chance? I won't teach you, I won't talk down to you. That's a part, but you've got the theory. I'll partner with you in helping get the theory into practice. I'll just ask you questions. And I'll listen, and I'll ask you more questions.

unknown 47:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

So we run around the country trying to get parents to zip it and listen.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

This is so good.

SPEAKER_04 47:59

This is so good. I have a story of a 14-year-old. I was in a house, and the lady said, Um, I have a 14-year-old, and every night since he's been born, I read him a Bible story and we pray. But he's 14 and he just rolls his eyes. I said, You're done. Now's the time to find out what he thinks and what he feels, what's going on inside, and his motives, and what's going on, and ask him questions. So she came back to our meeting uh a couple days later and she says, I gotta tell you what happened. I picked up my son from school and he was so angry. Something had happened, and he was just going on and on and on in anger. And I remembered, ask questions, ask questions. So I said, Wow, how did you feel when Darren said that? And he broke. He burst into tears. She said he sobbed so hard that in ten minutes his head was in my lap. And she said, I was thinking, questions, questions. And then I said, What what do you want our dad your dad and I to do when you go through tough times like this? And through his sobs, he said, Just keep asking me questions.

unknown 49:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 49:14

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Quick to listen, slow to speak. We all know it. But we talk and talk. It's just hard to learn.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Parents have to be discipled.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

To be a disciple and to make disciples.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

So keep doing what you're doing. Let's keep working at it.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Yeah, I I want everyone. I want to be like standing from the mountaintops trying to give this message out because um it's what we need. So before I totally lose it, thank you both for being here and thank you for being faithful. I mean, people may or may not know what all your kids are doing, but I'd just like to put a quick plug, they're all in ministry, serving the Lord wholeheartedly, raising families of their own who um love Jesus. And um I see the f fruit generationally already, and I love how you own it and you know you didn't do it perfectly, and in God's grace and his mercy, you're able to testify to his goodness. Um and I I thank you for writing the words, I thank you for sharing the words and being faithful to that call on your life and helping equip the rest of the body of Christ, the saints, to be able to do this and reminding us it's never too late. Thank you. So thank you. We're gonna put all the ways to find you guys in the show notes, connect with you, and certainly to get this book because you have to read it. If it's the only book you read from here on out, read it. Besides the Bible. Thank you so much, Helen Debbie. Thank you. Appreciate it. Well, friends, you see what I mean? That conversation was so enriching and encouraging to my soul and spirit, and I hope yours as well. I hope that you won't hesitate to get this book not only for yourself, but for maybe some friends, or if you're not a parent yet, maybe um for some friends who are parents and who could really use some of this great teaching about how to parent as Jesus would, which is a tough act to follow, but I really believe that he gives us his word and disciples us so that we can do the same in loving our children well. In the meantime, I hope you find more ways to live more unplugged, purposeful, and intentional. Until next week.