Episode 002: Co-Host of Conspirituality Podcast and Yoga Teacher Julian Walker Talks Healing

Join the fireside chat with Julian Walker of the Conspirituality podcast as we sit down and discuss, life, career, spirituality and relationships in the landscape of healing from trauma & narcissistic abuse. As we follow some of Julian's story, it opens the door to getting an overall view of what healing can look like as we step toward what is healthy and away from what is unhealthy in our self love journeys, and the ways in which our lives and relationships can be so much better. Follow Juilan on Instagram @julianmarcwalker or check out his Yoga Classes and Offerings! 

Buzzsprout - Let's get your podcast launched!
Start for FREE

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Julian: 0:00

I mean, if we're in right now, I just wanted to say that it's great to be here with you. I'm so pleased that you started this podcast. We are in. I'm so glad that you're in. It's funny. My, I have a. I have a two and a half year old daughter, and she's really into like building caves right now, building forts. And she wants you to come in with her and you go down in there and she's like, make it dark, make it dark. Yes. Yeah. That feeling of containment. So I'm glad that you're already in the cave and I'm great. Yes. Yeah. And I have enjoyed our association so far, this is the first time we're talking in person, but I've really enjoyed your presence on Instagram and the type of stuff that you're putting out there, because I feel like it is so real, emotionally real it's personal, you're very transparent and vulnerable in the stuff that you share. And there's an insightfulness about how youre talking about your sort of central topics, which, which I hear and tell me if this is right. I hear as being psychology, trauma recovery, essentially. Self-love finding center and, and sort of nourishing sense of self in perhaps in the aftermath or in relationship to. Relational trauma as well. maybe dealing with, you know, with parents or other loved ones that have been toxic or had personality disorders or that kind of fun stuff. Yeah.

Tabitha: 1:30

You're such a good listener. I can, you are a very good listener.

Julian: 1:35

I pay attention. I pay attention. When, when someone like you comes along, who's really addressing that stuff. in a coherent way and a grounded and kind way that is also like really Frank and not sugarcoating. All of that shit. I'm like, yes, that's what we need. Voices like yours.

Tabitha: 1:52

That means so much. It's just feels like a warm bucket of water got poured over my heart, that's very nice. Thank you. I appreciate it because it's a weird space. It's definitely.

Julian: 2:04

Yeah, well, online is a weird space anyway, quarantine is a weird space. there's a level of disconnection and putting stuff out there into the void and being like, how is this being received? And do people get where I'm coming from or do they just think I'm weird? And I think that's doubly the case when you're talking, talking about topics that are really vulnerable and that have a, a cultural kind of stigma attached to them or taboo, like you're not really supposed to share that stuff.

Tabitha: 2:31

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Thank you.

Julian: 2:35

You're welcome

Tabitha: 2:35

I'm just going to take it.

Julian: 2:36

And honestly, one thing that's become sort of second nature to me as part of my growth and healing is really recognizing that in the relationships that matter to us, the more that we, the more that we allow an empathic attunement, where we're seeking to actively reflect back to one another. The emotional meaning of our being of our communication of our needs, all of that kind of stuff. The better, because that's, that's the gold. So, you know, I didn't come in here going, I don't want to do that, for Tabitha, I'm just like that back and forth is to me the heart of the matter. yeah. So that's so wonderful. I have followed you for a little bit now. but being on your page is always kind of like coming home. It's like, Oh, coming back home to yourself. Really. And that's what I love about following you and taking in your content and, yeah, it just feels very healthy, healthful. And I want others to feel that and to hear from you and, get that sense also of coming back home. Thank you. I love that. Yeah.

Tabitha: 3:51

You have a lot going on, on your page, your Instagram page.

Julian: 3:56

Yeah.

Tabitha: 3:56

you have all kinds of roles. how would you wrap up what it is that you do in your work?

Julian: 4:04

Well, I sit in the sweet spot intersection for me because it's what I love between yoga. And bodywork. So hands on work with people and disciplines like somatic psychology and neuroscience, and even like transpersonal psychology was really fascinating for me for a while. I am, I'm originally from South Africa and I came here fleeing the death throes of apartheid, which still included the draft. So I came here, fleeing the draft, fleeing the possible prison sentence, abandoning my, my university education, and basically arrived here, went to music school and then proceeded to work minimum wage jobs, and now with like no possibility of getting any further education really. continuing my autodidactic kind of tendencies. So I have this voracious appetite and it was even stronger when I was in my twenties to just really understand all of this stuff and so much of it was born out of my own desire to heal and to self actualize and my fascination with spirituality and consciousness, eventually over time, a more integrated sort of embodiment. And so it led me to this place. And I often say when I train teachers and when I train Bodyworkers, when I mentor people, especially in the early stages I say to them, you know, let me tell you a little bit about my story, because if you had come up to me when I was like 23 or 24 and said your love for music, for poetry, for psychology. For, philosophy, right? For literature, your enjoyment of this yoga thing that you've been doing for a couple of years out of a book, like on a beach before I knew there was such a thing as yoga classes in the West, you know, I lived in my own isolated world. I had no car. And no TV, you know, I was just like this long haired kid from South Africa, trying to make it in Venice and living in one room for five years, you know, riding the bus. And if you had come to me at that point and said, you know what, all the stuff that you're so passionate about, that you're so preoccupied with and you spend every minute of free time, you have engaging with will turn into it's its own sort of career. Like you'll be able to put all these pieces together and you'll be at this thing that you do, or you create he's mixed tapes for your friends of like all this cool ambient music that you then like take into your new yoga class with a boom box. Like all of that is going to turn into something. I would have said probably not. It's probably not like I'm probably going to have to figure out how to make a living at some point and just do a regular straight job and do all this other stuff on the side. Mm. but somehow staying true to it, staying with what was authentic to me. Being, you know, when I, when I started teaching yoga, I was the only teacher who used music at the studio. I taught at this is going back to like 1993, 1994. I was the only one who was bringing, being in Rumi and being like, Hey, I want to, I want to read you this Rumi poem, where I want to read you this Walt Whitman poem, you know, as part of what we're doing in here, like. A lot of people thought I was super weird. It wasn't, it was not the thing. The thing was light and I'd turn the lights down. Like why, why are you turning the lights down? We want to see ourselves in the mirrors doing these poses. And I was like, there's this internal experience that you can be having that is about. Dropping in underneath what it looks like and, you know, say stuff like that to people now. And they're like, yeah, that's yoga, but I'm sure there were other people doing it. I'm not saying I invented it, but I just was on my own sort of track in terms of being really, really curious about, and really passionate about inner work and what it means to sort of come home to your body and how you could have these moments of. Being freed up from the defenses and the habits and the tension patterns and able to really experience yourself. And I think at that time I had more of a metaphysical concepts of that, but it was always imbued with psychology. It was always imbued with some sense that there was an authentic self that had an emotional life and that the gold was in learning how to really be with. The suffering in such a way that you weren't running from it. You weren't afraid of it. You weren't denying it. And that, and that freedom was through that process. It's becoming more free and becoming, or able to love and more able to live authentically. So it's kind of like this existentialist psychological position that there is a way you can live authentically. That really feels resonant and integrated and empowered, but it comes through the doorway of vulnerability. Anything related to that, that that I've come in contact with over the last 25 years, which includes, you know, the work with people like Peter Levine and Pat Ogden and Dan Siegel. So any of the interpersonal neurobiology stuff, any of the somatic psychology stuff. All got woven in. And fortunately over time, people who took my classes, knew some of those people. So I've gotten to meet those people. I've gotten to be on stages. I got to hear Dan Siegel say my name from a stage at UCLA and he invited me up to the stage of it's like, okay, that's amazing. Yeah.

Tabitha: 9:22

Wow. So I'm like resonating with everything you're saying.

Julian: 9:25

So

Tabitha: 9:26

I'm just like, Yeah, no, it sounds very organic too. It's like it wasn't things you were putting on. They were just kind of coming from what was authentically you.

Julian: 9:38

Yeah, exactly. What was authentically me, what was capturing my interest intellectually, but also what I needed because I had a lot to work through and, Along the way it would be like, Oh, bodywork. Yeah. That's interesting. I'm going to do like a bunch of bodywork sessions with someone who's really good. And then, wow. I actually, I think I want to do this. And then at a certain point, you know, a few years in was like, Oh, there are these. Sunday afternoon gatherings where people dance and they're sober and they're barefoot and they're wearing like loose fitting clothing and just having a good time together and bonding and having like, I never had community like that before. I'm terrified. So people would invite me to that, like friends that I've met for six months, I go, yeah, one day I'll go and then the moment I went that was like the next 14 years I went every single Sunday. And then, you know, somewhere in that process, I started doing it as part of my yoga retreats. Like we're going to dance now. And then I started having, you know, doing dance events here in town. So yeah, very, as, as you're picking up very organic and very much about like, how do these different modalities to use sort of like a shorthand word, right? How do they. Compliment one another. And what do they address? You know, like, like there are things you're going to get out of sitting with a somatic therapist. That you wouldn't get out of your yoga class and vice versa. And there were things you're going to get from going to an ecstatic dance experience when you feel ready for that, that will be, that will be related, but completely different. You couldn't otherwise get, you know, that's to me. I was always just sort of like, okay, wait, where's the, where's the missing piece? Where's, where's the place where I can and keep, becoming more. Self-aware and more sort of a free within myself.

Tabitha: 11:28

Yeah. It's, it's a lot of things. I, I feel like, did you sense all of this? You probably didn't. It probably came to you in drips and drabs, but did you sense all of this behind what it is you wanted to do? Cause I feel like I would feel overwhelmed if I was looking at all of the different aspects. And I kind of am sometimes and I'm like, I want to do all of it. Yeah. well this is part of the thing, it's the blessing and the curse, right? So the blessing and the curse of being a really poor minimum wage- working a one room- living, no car-having bus riding, young person who is, who is a transplant from another culture. And just trying to figure out how to survive. and it's also realizing, you know what, I'm not going to be a rock star. So I need to be like, literally I've, at some point I maybe have to cut my hair and get a job that went to music school. And I was, I was a guitar player and I played in bands and I did that whole thing. Yeah.

Julian: 12:22

You're, you're relating to this.

Tabitha: 12:24

Yes.

Julian: 12:25

Yeah. So through that, that whole period, it's not like I went. Here's the thing, you know, in the, in the mid nineties, it's not like there were tons of people running around saying, Hey, you can have a career doing this. Like you should do this, like teacher trainings, weren't being marketed for yoga in the mid nineties, in the mid nineties. If you wanted to be a yoga teacher, you studied with someone and then you said, Do you think I'm good enough? And they said, you know, we're going to have a teacher training at a couple years, and it's only going to be open to 10 people and you'll have to pass a test. It wasn't like, come through with teacher training, there's a career for you outside of the corporate world. It was like very, it was very underground is the wrong word, but it was, it was much more low key and it was much more like just about the path and the journey. And so becoming a yoga teacher was like, You, you are, you are deeply enough invested in this and having your own sort of meaningful experience of it that you want to share it with others, but there's no concept that like, you know, there wasn't social media it just wasn't, you know, I remember the first time my teacher said you should make a flyer. I was like, offended, make a flyer for my yoga class. Like surely people will just come because it's good. And that would be more pure somehow, you know, of course I've changed. I've changed my tune, a lot of that sort of stuff. Cause I get that marketing is important, but yeah, it wasn't like I was looking at all of it and saying, how do I put this together into a business model? It was much more like this stuff is really interesting and I'm digging into it because I can't help myself. You know, I, I want to know how it can help me. And I want to understand things about the human condition. just because I'm fascinated with them and I didn't think maybe yeah, some point I could, I could help others. It was just, it just naturally, like in my conversations, it was what I was talking about and a certain point it's like, Oh, I'm actually kind of good at holding space for other people and sharing these ideas and offering some, you know, techniques that I've learned. And it just continued evolving from there. So for anyone who maybe like, you feels like. it's overwhelming or, you know, there's, there, there are too many things and how do I choose? Or like how, like, how do I, be strategic about which trainings I do first or whatever, whatever it is. Right. I would say really stay true to what's speaking to you and what you're feeling in a very. honest way in a very, like, with a lot of honesty towards yourself, what what's really helping me and what am I finding really insightful, in terms of the different stuff that I'm exploring and stay with them. Yeah. And then see what, see how the other things that are sort of hovering a factor in and where they might fit together and compliment one another, because. You can have tons of training under your belt. you can have letters after your name and I admire and appreciate all my friends who have, been able to go and get advanced degrees. That's wonderful, but you can do all of that stuff and not have engaged deeply enough in your own inner work you know, when you, when you learn. Intellectually it's a map of the territory and it's really important. And I, I think really like getting into that level of rigor is great. And that map represents a territory that is profoundly experiential. And my sense is that the only way I can really guide someone through that territory or into an exploration of that territory. Is if I've deeply familiarize myself with it as well, not just the concepts about it. Right. And not just jumping through the hoops to get the certificates really, having that deep, personal, inner dialogue with that material, I think is key. So, so even if you, even if you only dive super deep into one or two things, but you have that level of familiarity with the territory, And then you keep your radar open for all the other stuff. And for the new stuff, that's coming to me that's a really effective strategy because over time, part of what you find is your particular medicine in a way that you have to share with others. And that's not something you really learn from anyone else. It's something that emerges through that process of learning. Right,

Tabitha: 16:45

yeah that's so good. It's so good because there is this, I feel like we're having a session right now. Oh, asleep. Dial it back, wait Im not in session

Julian: 16:58

Why would you have to dial it back.

Tabitha: 16:59

I don't know. Or, or reconfigure it. I feel like I I just want to open up.

Julian: 17:03

Well, you thought you go wherever you're called to go and I'm sure your listeners will. Yeah.

Tabitha: 17:10

I feel like we could go so many places with that, but, you're making me think, Julian, this is hard. goodness gracious. Yeah, me too. the body work aspect is one that I'm really interested in and, yeah. Your dance tribe stuff really intrigues me too. I feel like, I just kinda got into dancing the last year and a half or so because, you know, moving the body, especially my very conservative religious background, it was a no, no. Right. And so, and there is that sensual aspect to it, but, For me, it was always the idea of like, if you're freely moving your body there's space for basically the devil to move in. Right. So, yeah, I kind of got into the dance thing and I've really, really enjoyed it. And the first person who kind of introduced the idea to me as a way of getting grounded was my rolfer, and I remember you reaching out to

Julian: 18:01

me

Tabitha: 18:02

when I started having Rolfing done. And you. You were checking in, you were just kind of like, does this person holds space for you.

Julian: 18:09

That's right. I hadn't remembered that. Yeah.

Tabitha: 18:12

It's good. It's a good question to ask somebody, because I think it's very easy to think this person's going to help me and, and kind of be a sponge for whatever is going to be happening in session. and she has, she has a wonderful person. Her name's Theresa Pearse.

Julian: 18:27

Yeah. Yeah. And to clarify, like nothing, nothing against Rolfing. I think Rolfing is amazing. But, and I think, you know, there's a wide range of, of how it's always the individual that you're receiving from. I just know that what I was, what I was picking up from your online presence is that you, you were working through trauma and there was a way that you were getting into your body from that sort of emotional mind body place. And there are approaches to really deep bodywork that, some people associate with mind, body healing, because when someone goes really deep, Sometimes you'll get really emotional, but not every body worker has focused on learning how to then be present for that. Very often. It's like, okay, we're going really deep. Okay. Yeah. You need to cry. Go ahead and cry. And then there's no, like there's no integration. There's no conversation. There's no like empathic holding of that space. It's just like, yeah, go ahead. That's that's normal. That happens. and for some, clients that can be. in a way like perhaps sometimes re traumatizing or sometimes just, just an incomplete process around working with those emotions and how they show up in the body. So, yeah, I think I was kind of looking out for you, like, just make sure that there is that, and I'm glad that there

Tabitha: 19:47

is. I appreciated that a lot. And what I did find with me, and I don't know if it's just my personality or things I'd been through. I wouldn't have the feelings or emotions until maybe even days later.

Julian: 20:00

Oh, interesting.

Tabitha: 20:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I had to make that space for myself at the time I was in a relationship where there wasn't space for that kind of thing. And, you know, it's, it's one of the, that's why I feel like. This becoming in touch with yourself and the ability to hold space for yourself too, is so important because a lot of us, we don't have the healthiest relationships and we're just, we're working through. What's good for us. There isn't a lot of space. And, I think I had gotten to the point where I felt safe enough in my body to do that, but I could see how, if that's happening in session two, especially it's a very vulnerable place. And when you're with somebody else you're also taking in like, am I crazy? This person sees me as nuts, you know?

Julian: 20:44

Yeah. And my understanding is that so much of what we mean when we use the word healing. So much of it is relational.

Tabitha: 20:55

Yeah,

Julian: 20:56

healing happens in relationship. And so if the relationships that are part of the container for whatever the healing work is, if those relationships are connected and attuned, and there's a sense of being accepted, and there's a sense of being seen in your authentic, organic vulnerability when it shows up without any pressure, right. When it shows up. that is profoundly healing because what happens for most of us is we don't in our developmental process. There's a way that we very often don't get enough, empathic mirroring enough of a sense that. our emotions and needs and responses and fears and desires are understood and are natural. And, and in fact are worthy of attention and love. So whatever the trauma is or whatever the, the history of trauma might be, whatever for the, particular issues are that we're dealing with a, whatever the triggers are. If the person across from you can be present with that in an, in an open nonjudgmental. Empathically attuned way where they're actually picking up on your body language on your facial expression. If you're on the massage table on the sound that you make, when you sigh or when you cry, there's a, there's a sense of like being, being attuned to all those layers of communication, to knowing when to back off and knowing when to check in. And knowing when to affirm or, or mirror back and knowing when to ask questions so that, so that, that whole flow, that relational flow can happen. That's profoundly healing, whatever the modality is, you know, and there there's profound deep stuff that can happen across the range of different modalities. If the connection is there, you know, and at a certain point that the technique or the ideological orientation. Starts to matter, less and less, the more connected and safe that relational space becomes because then whatever, whatever you're drawing upon from as the, as the facilitator or the healer, whatever you're drawing upon from your, library of ideas or tools or, or personal experiences, it just happens organically in the moment based on prioritizing that connection. so yeah, anyway, that's, that's, that's my little tangent on that. I feel like the relational piece is, is super profound.

Tabitha: 23:30

Yeah it really is. And I'm coming to realize that more and more, I think in the beginning of starting this journey, I thought, well, I can do this myself and I can. but I think sometimes I try to separate myself from some of the ideas and actual things that I've. Gone through and deal with like the more I try to separate myself from it, the less authentic I feel. So it's kind of like want to embrace, but not hang on to not cling to victimhood that kind of thing, but also acknowledge that a lot of the stuff that comes up for me now today, like even this last weekend, it's. It's definitely stuff that is linked to my childhood and my upbringing you know, the whole thing. and so the relationship aspect, a lot of it only comes up in relationship, I guess, is where I'm going with that. Yeah. You know, like it triggers all the things.

Julian: 24:28

Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. And it triggers all the things from beneath the surface, right? That might not even know are there, or be aware or affecting you on a day to day basis. and the other piece about all of that, as you know, is that we're drawn to relationships for a variety of conscious and unconscious reasons. And there are dynamics that. The wisdom of our psyche is saying, yeah, that's the dynamic you need to get into, even though it's not what you think you're getting into. Yeah. And yeah, it's triggering.

Tabitha: 25:07

Yeah, it really is. I like to have relationship Conversations, especially on here. I'm finding it always goes there a little bit, even if we dip our toe it in the water, because I do feel like relationship is so important and it's so close to the heart and it's what a lot of us deal with. And, It's true. Like so many of us, people in my position that came from narcissistic abuse or whatever, it's it's, I have a hard time even saying that outloud. It's easier to write it for some reason. Maybe it's a little bit of a separation for me, but, it's difficult because I think it is such a cultural buzz topic. Yup.

Julian: 25:46

Yeah. Badly. I mean, it's, it's a double edged sword right. On the one hand and it's like, Oh, it's great that some of these things are being talked about more now. So it's not completely foreign to people, but on another level, it's like, if I hear the word gas lighting, like I think I heard that word maybe like five times in the last 20 years. And I would say in the last two years, I've probably heard it 500 times. I mean, it's most, mostly it's being used incorrectly, but when you have deep personal experience of it, you're like, Ooh, I don't want to sound like, I'm just using the word, you know?

Tabitha: 26:18

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So it is like, kind of need this distance between me and the word because of the connotations that it has and the way it's used. And,

Julian: 26:29

you mean narcissism,

Tabitha: 26:31

narcissism, and narcissistic personality, all of that stuff. and being here, I've struggled with this lately. I'm grappling with this idea that we can't diagnose people because I know we can't. I know we can't, but we also have very intimate knowledge of some of these types of personalities, I should say. And, we know, we know on an intimate, like almost fibrous level. Yeah. What it is to live with that. Yeah. And, so yeah, that's just an interesting thing I'm noticing lately. Like I think I tried to kind of separate from it a little bit. The last year. For several months and just kind of came back around to okay. Just accepting it, that it's not always going to be understood, but if I'm coming from a place of, this is my story, this is how it was. and this is what you might be dealing with if you've come from that kind of a background of

Julian: 27:22

that's right. And that's why that's my, you and others like you provide such an important service because what you're doing is essentially you're naming something. And you're educating people in a very, earnest way, right. About something, the problem with personality disorders and in relationships, or even, even to like, to, to, to follow on from what you were saying about not being able to diagnose people, right. That what is so difficult and painful and confusing about being in relationships with people who have enough of that kind of dynamic or pattern is that it's, it's crazy making, right? It, it, it makes you doubt yourself. It, it does a number on your self esteem. it, it just throws, it just pulls the rug out from underneath you in so many intense ways, especially if it's someone that you're really, really emotionally involved with and my sense is that the, the more it is named and the more it is understood without, without demonizing the person or sometimes people are like, Oh, well, isn't that ableism like without right. Without dehumanizing them or something like that, which I think is often the fear, right. Or an often the fear too, amongst people like us is that, Oh, well, you're not taking responsibility for your part. And that's the huge thing, like the huge breakthrough. And so tell me if this was your experience to the huge breakthrough in terms of healing from those kinds of toxic relationships is understanding that I am an imperfect person who has plenty of stuff to work on, but that's actually not what was going on in that dynamic. What was going on in that dynamic is that the other person had such a deeply, deeply, intense and consuming, Like, layer of emotional and relational material, that everything was about that. And everything was about sucking everyone else into that and sucking me into that. And it's disorienting and it's painful and it's irrational and it's, it's sometimes unpredictable, even though with some distance, you can actually start to predict it. You know, like if, if they're, if they're being really nice to you, they're probably gonna cut your head off pretty soon. But it put really like getting a handle on that. The first time I was sitting with a therapist and I for the hundredth time describing a particular dynamic that was going on in a relationship I was having with someone who really had a lot of this type of material. Yeah. And I remember him just looking at me and he says, he said, You're a musician. Right. And I was like, yeah, like, why are you asking me that right now? And he said, you have to have someone come up to you and ask you if you know how to play a particular song. And you don't recognize the name of the song. Yeah, sure. And he said, but if they whistle a few bars or if they like hummed the melody, then you're like, Oh yeah, I know that song. Yeah. that's what's happening right now, like I don't, I don't need you to keep talking about this. I know the song. I know the song. I read it just like you're saying, I recognize it. Not from this place of like, I just have this intuitive knowing that's absolutely right. It's more, I'm familiar enough with how that feels and I'm, I'm picking up on your signals enough to know the role that you're in. And that role is only really possible in relationship to this kind of psychology. Yeah. And, and there's something so healing and so liberating. And so, it gives so much relief to, to know what it is and to be able to step back and go, Oh, this is not me playing the victim or not being able to, take responsibility for my own stuff or not looking at what I might be doing. Like I can do all of that because I'm that kind of person. but this is, this is something that is unmanageable, that is toxic, that, that has, crushed my self esteem. That there's a level of, of conflict that. Is unproductive and doesn't go anywhere. Good. You know, and I think sometimes, sometimes people like us who are really earnest and really interested in growth and healing and processing and be like, no, I'm going to, I hang in there with it. I'm going to do the work. I said, I wanted intimacy, well, this is what intimacy looks like, and I'm going to do the work. And it's like, yeah, there's, there's work. That's productive. And it goes somewhere good. And where people are actually really learning to understand one of the others vulnerabilities and triggers and needs and personality styles, and being like, Oh, wow. I feel so much more connected to you after we had that difficult hour long conversation. And then there's just like the shit show that happens with the real personality disorders and. You know, bless them. They, they, they, they need, they need help, but unless, unless they know that they need help and they're actively working with it and they're actively able to sit down and say, you know what? That was my, that was my narcissistic self, where that was my borderline stuff. Or that's what happens when I, when my buttons get pushed. I'm so sorry. Unless that's already there. Yeah. Run for the Hills.

Tabitha: 32:30

Exactly. Exactly. And to the relationship aspect, like we think. We think we're moving away. It's so funny. Like I'm really into the process, right. Of discovering. Cause you're right. When we are in a relationship with a person that has narcissistic traits, especially as a child and, some of it goes away into adulthood there's no room. There's no room for you to even work on your own shit. I have my own stuff. And then I had this stuff, this got completely neglected over here. I remember one therapist saying to me, when I was in couples counseling in my marriage and, she was a psychotherapist. But at one point she was saying to me that she didn't think I had matured above the age of 14. I remember I remember being like so offended by that

Julian: 33:22

you haven't matured above 14 and you're like, Oh, well, screw you. I have, so

Tabitha: 33:30

yes I have. and then it was like a weird rush of emotion I remember crying and she's like, why are you crying? And I said, because for so long, I had to be older than I was. You know, I had to be very adult Like from the time I was very, very young and it was like I had put on adulthood from a very young age and yet never got the chance to become one. and that's the kind of stuff I, why I want to talk about this kind of stuff, because it is so intricate and, and can be so confusing and that waking up to it. And then we're trying to do life. And we end up in relationships that echo a lot of these things back to us. And we're trying to figure out why nothing feels like it's working or getting better, or, Yeah, just the familiarity that is there. We are attracted to that in a way, even though we're still trying to get away from it too. It's a weird back and forth. Yeah,

Julian: 34:31

absolutely. Yeah. And in a way I think that with this kind of stuff, there, there are, there are sort of stages of the journey, right? And so the first. Stage of the journey is maybe you're, you're always drawn to this and you're, and you, you don't realize it. You just, you just like, well, this is bad luck,

Tabitha: 34:49

man.

Julian: 34:50

And then you start to kind of put it together and you're like, wait, there's something going on here, but I, but I can't help, but be drawn to it. and then I think that's the process of that material moving from your unconscious. So from your implicit memory system or from. A stage of life that you maybe are disconnected from coming more up into your conscious awareness, into being just a little bit more yeah. Integrated where you're like, Oh, this reminds me of that. And I'm hoping unconsciously, and I don't really believe that it's true, but that if I can get that love and that validation and that sense of connection from someone who reminds me enough of the toxic parent. That then I'll feel whole, then I'll feel healed. And in a way, then I will have overcome that, that helpless, hopeless feeling that I had as a kid. If I can get someone who is enough like that person to, to see me right. And, and it's, it's sort of this interesting flip that I feel like happens when enough. Awareness emerges and maybe enough healing has started to happen t, where it's like, Oh, hold on a second. I've had these glasses on where. I only see people who match this old archetype that really is never going to give me what I need. And when I can take those off, I can kind of see them for what they are. I can see why they pull me and really feel that my body, but go, no, that's not right right for me. And start and start to suddenly see all these other people who, before I maybe thought were boring, who actually are healthy healthier. Right. And that's, it it'd be too, too black and white about it. Who are kinder, who are genuinely interested in who I am as a person who I don't have to struggle to try to get through, to, and, have them have them understand me or see me. and that's a powerful thing. and I just think there's no way around it, right? It's like for each of us, whatever those unresolved parental dynamics are. Where we're working through them on the way to feeling some sense of contentment and safety in relationship and it's never a done deal, but I want to say this to anyone who might be struggling with the type of stuff that we're talking about. it can move, it can move a lot, and there are much more satisfying and loving versions of relationship. That are possible, but even if you haven't experienced them and you have no template for them, they're there and they're different than the idealized fantasy that we formed whenwe were a kid of the intensity or, you know, the merging or whatever the things are that, that we think we really need. It's different than that. It's, it's a little bit more boring. It's a little bit more reasonable. It's a little bit more separate. Intimate it's intimate in this way where two centers are really able to connect.

Tabitha: 37:44

Yeah. That's, that's really speaking to me right now because I know I went through this big transformation in this last year, even of a big breakup last year in June. And then intentionally I didn't go through this phase where I was like, I'm going to be alone for a while and figure this out. I mean, I was alone for a little while. But I was also doing a lot, like I was being around other people a lot and just really practicing. I feel good in my body when I'm with this person or I'm going to leave this situation right now, even though it's like, you know, sometimes we wait for those opportunities to like, all right, now's a good time for me to leave, but I would just do it. I would just leave and just really practicing, understanding how I was feeling. Around somebody or practicing saying, no, I don't want to hang out with you again or right now or whatever. And, and then intentionally, like you were saying, our tastes change. It's true. The things that before would have been intriguing to me or me feeling like I needed to have some kind of response, just no longer, I had no taste for.

Julian: 38:57

Yeah.

Tabitha: 38:57

Even having them in my life and it can change. And that's the thing. It is, it is a really hopeful thing. And I'm so grateful that I have a boyfriend right now. Who's very much not anything like I would have imagined.

Julian: 39:14

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Happy for you. That's great. Yeah. And what I hear you saying, in all of that is like, what's it like to be in touch with your own needs in the context of relationship and trust those without feeling like you have to justify them or interrogate them deeply and just be like, I think there is, there's a really important phase of, of like learning to do that and go, no, actually I'm feeling like I need something else or no, I need to have a boundary right now or, It's no, it's, it's not about you and I'm sorry if it feels that way, but this is just what I need to do today, you know? So that could be so amazing.

Tabitha: 39:52

Yeah. It's interesting too. Cause you were saying it's I think you worded it this way. It can be separate.

Julian: 40:00

But

Tabitha: 40:00

also more intimate. Yeah, it is. Cause we've, we've learned that codependency so well, and it, if it's not in meshed and codependent, we feel like something's off or wrong. Absolutely. And a lot of that stuff is coming up for me. It's like logically speaking, no, I don't need to be around this person all the time. But something in my body is saying, something's wrong. Something's wrong. If you know, it's a really interesting thing to go through. And fortunately, you know, my boyfriend holds space for that and he will listen. And I say, I'm struggling with this. This is the story that's playing through my head right now, when we have these times of like, you know, we're not connecting or whatever it is. And just so you're aware, like, I'm freaking out inside, but he really does make a lot of space for that. And it's, it's very, it's not hard to do. It's interesting how we can be trained to think that our needs, our thoughts, our feelings are so hard for somebody else to accept.

Julian: 40:59

Yeah. Yeah.

Tabitha: 41:00

We learn to keep hiding it.

Julian: 41:03

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And that, I mean, when I hear you say that, it feels like a sigh of relief, right? that for you to be able to, to just be open about that, to know that about yourself enough and not being, making some kind of, demand right. But more to be, just be putting it out there, like, Hey, I am this vulnerable human being who has emotions, and this is what's happening for me right now. And to have the other person say, Oh, okay, I get that. And. That's fine. You, you be, you. Thanks for telling me, so I don't misinterpret it and, you know, go off down my own rabbit hole, but, okay, cool. Yeah. And to be able to tolerate that in one another,

Tabitha: 41:45

and he even goes a step further to say, what can I do to help? You know? And that's another important step, especially for people like me were like doubling back and trying to undo and redo. And it's, it's as simple as like, It'd be nice if we could Voxer a little bit more during the week or whatever, you know, that kind of a thing. It's not even anything big and it's not big of a request. and there are, that's the other thing. There are people who have that capability and they are doing their, their own work too. And, you just gotta hang on to what's best for you. And that's another thing like I just, in the moving forward, I think it's always this, like recognizing where it's coming from then moving forward. I always want to share those things with people and practically how to do that and what that looks like and what might be going on because I've had it all go on inside, you know?

Julian: 42:39

Yeah. You're making me think of, something that, I, I taught teacher training, probably at, I think, eight times with my, my friend Hala Curry, but we have a, I don't know if you know her, but we have a long sort of history of doing a lot of teaching together and, And one of the things that started sort of showing up in terms of training teachers from a training yoga teachers from, somatically informed trauma informed like neuroscience informed perspective was just really saying to people, take this in. When you hold space for a group yoga class, let's say there's 20 people in the room. That means there are 20 inner. Experiences intersecting the same time. Every single person in that room is having their own interior experience. Every single person in that room has a history. They have a, they have an emotional life, they have things that push their buttons there. They're perceiving you based on their own sort of transference. Yeah. They're there, they're having their own experience. So the people around them in terms of like who they're attracted to, who they feel annoyed by who they're, who they're projecting onto, like all of this stuff is happening. And so. The more, the more as a facilitator, you get, you get out of the cultural conditioning that says you're only supposed to treat people as the surface of what you see and just like react to that. Get into the, into the mindset that what it means to hold space is to really deeply understand that fact that there are 20 psyches intersecting in this moment and not, and not to be totally intimidated by that but to honor that, and to intercede that as sacred, right. I feel like very often in the yoga world or the more spiritual world that can be all this abstraction around sacredness and around why this is meaningful or why it's spiritual. Right. But to me, it's that it's grounded in that it's grounded in like, We recognize that the inner life of human beings is beautiful and powerful and worthy of attention and that is sacred, like creating that kind of space where, where, where we can be in a shared, permission. To interact with our inner lives. I often use this, this poem from Kabir, the Indian mystic poet. the way he says it is the flute of interior time is always playing, whether you're listening or not. And I rephrase it a little bit, cause you know, old translators do that anyway. I say the music of the inner life is playing. It's always playing whether you're listening or not, and then it goes, but when you finally hear that melody, it tells you the truth. So always, always inviting people into. Awareness and acceptance and curiosity towards the music of the inner life, which shows up sometimes incomprehensible sometimes like in ways that you don't want it to sometimes really vulnerable sometimes like nothing's going on. Sometimes it's really subtle. Sometimes you're just being with your. Feeling of shutdownness and learning how to recognize that like, Oh, this is what it feels like to be shut down. I can't really feel my body. I don't really have any emotional tone. Interesting. Right. Yeah. And sometimes it's, it's just absolutely gorgeous and it takes you by surprise. And you're like, wow. The sensorium of being an embodied alive human being in this moment that I've created space to pay attention to how magnificent. So to me, all of that. Is the content of sacred space.

Tabitha: 46:15

That's good stuff.

Julian: 46:16

Sorry. I'm going in a lot of different directions.

Tabitha: 46:19

It's I love how things spark those thought processes and, where it tends to. To want to go. cause it's true. It's, we're so much more than these things that have happened to us and that we're dealing with too. But yeah, bringing a consciousness to the unconsciousness and subconsciousness of it all is, is a big one because, we're so separated. I know I was so separated from everything, my emotions, everything my, even my choices. It just felt like I was kind of being blown about by the wind for a lot of my life.

Julian: 46:53

Yeah. And

Tabitha: 46:55

it's so empowering to find the ground under your feet

Julian: 46:58

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, one of my, I wouldn't be a complete, podcast connection from me if I didn't mention spiritual bypass. Cause it's sort of, it's sort of one of my things I feel like, especially being in the community that I've been in for the last 20, 25 years, which is mostly organized around yoga and then yoga tends to have a lot of new age sort of material around it. And the times that we're, that we've been in, Sometimes there can be a way of thinking about inner work or growth or enlightenment or being a spiritual person that that is actually about disconnecting even further from, from your inner life, from your authentic emotions, from your life history. Right. And there can be this this way of saying, well I'm not attached. I'm not going to identify with my story and I'm not going to impose my emotions on other people, because I know that I'm a sovereign self who is totally self responsible and empowered. And I'm going to just. Change the story and reinterpret those emotions as something else or just disconnect from them because I'm not a victim. Right. so there's, there's so much problematic languaging and ways of interpreting what becoming healthier actually is about. And it's, it's widespread. It's, it's very, very commonly held and, and, you know, I love social media, but I think social media also plays a role in that because. It's really hard to communicate something nuanced in a seven word meme, right. Or a hashtag or something. Right. And it's, and it's really hard to go deep. yeah, in terms of an, of an online presence that might often be very, very performative, right. And trauma has become, you know, when, when Hala and I started teaching our trainings, no one was talking about trauma. I mean people were, but in our general circles, it was like, Oh, trauma and yoga, trauma and yoga. That's interesting. Never heard that before. What do you mean? Right. I mean, when we like go into here's why we think this really matters. and now it's like, everyone talks about trauma and not only that, like. A lot of people who have an overtly spiritual bypassing kind of message. That's very ungrounded, very, unintegrated very much about magical thinking and transcending to like the, whatever it is, the fifth dimension or something. I'm getting messages from the great beyond, like whatever the shtick is. now trauma gets sort of woven into that. So now I'm going to help you heal your trauma through this, like. Completely, ungrounded unrealistic, like on psychologically informed on emotionally empathic, thing that we're going to do together in an Instagram live. I'm going to come in to heal your trauma, you know, because we're just going to change the energy and boom, it's going to be gone. So that comes to mind for me, because I feel like the conversation we've been having and especially about the last few minutes, it was really illuminating that for me. And what I love about your online presence. Is an example of this, that there is a very profound, qualitative distinction between approaches to, to growth and healing that perpetuate disconnection and, lack of emotional honesty and lack of relational, kind of. Openness and vulnerability and realness. Like I'm a real person. I have a range of emotions. I'm not just the shiny archetype of someone who was, you know, done yoga for three years. And now I'm always positive. Like, it's not that like, there's a real qualitative distinction between those two things. And, and it's sad really because of the that is so often part of the bypass path, it's like an amplification of defenses that we've learned in a toxic family or in an anti psychological culture. To then be like, Oh no, actually you can become this incredibly, you know, Oh, unrealistic, disconnected, always positive. never a victim. don't buy into my story. Like it doesn't matter. I'm not going to tell you anything about my background, you know? Yeah. That, that, that can seem sort of empowering, at first glance, but it's like, I, I can't tell you, you know, how many people I have supported in deconstructing that particular operating system and getting to the place where they go, Oh, it's okay for me to have real emotions. It's okay for me to own and understand that my life story and my trauma history and my family of origin stuff has shaped who I am in ways that are just inescapable. And so at some point I have to turn and face it. And work with it and understand that even when I work with it, it's not just going to go away. Right. It's like, this is, this is my life and this is my story. And this is how my mom was, and this is how my dad was. And this is that really significant relationship. I had that, that turned everything upside down and, and, you know, triggered everything . And the more that I know in my life, the more I can own that and accept myself in that the more I can move forward. With honesty and authenticity and connect with others in a way where even if they don't know it explicitly implicitly, there's a feeling that it's safer for them to really be themselves. And it's in those moments where, where we're really being ourselves, you know, I have this thing with my wife it was part of our wedding vows, which is that she said, and this, this make me emotional. She said as, as part of her vows that she wanted to marry me because I love the, her that she loves being. And it's. Yeah. It's I mean, it's, it's, it's so simple and kind of dorky, but that's it, you know, if, if, if you can have the more people you have in your life who love the you, that you love being the more you're the more you're you're just winning

Tabitha: 52:57

I have a lump in my throat. Yeah. Yeah. I can see that about you, that you would provide that for someone that you know. yeah. Yeah. It's when you talk about the spiritual bypass too, it's I, I listened to you I've read some things that you've done and seen some of your videos on this stuff, and I can always relate it to my very conservative Christian background as well. And yeah. Yeah, a lot of it. I feel like a lot of it gets dumped on jesus'

Julian: 53:27

shoulders. Yeah.

Tabitha: 53:29

and yeah, it's, it's a bypass in a way. And, and we, and we can't be ourselves back to, you know, being loved for the person we. Want to be seen as you know, and the person that we feel like we are is, is so huge. And a lot of that gets dismissed in many kinds of spiritual

Julian: 53:52

contexts. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, you know, both spirituality and psychology, they're, they're really, you know, different angles on the same thing. The question is always, why are you suffering? And what is the path to become more free from that suffering. but as it turns out, there are multiple answers to that question. And they're not all equally effective or accurate, right?

Tabitha: 54:16

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. There is. There's that, The stepping away from the psychology of it all and I appreciate that about your work too. it grounds everything. It brings everything to a much more earthly level human level. Yeah. You know, and, you know, humor. Humanism was a dirty word in my world. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So anything about us was awful.

Julian: 54:46

Yeah.

Tabitha: 54:47

You know,

Julian: 54:48

I'm so sorry that, that you grew up with that. I'm, I'm, I'm really familiar with it because I grew up in a very Christian country, you know, we had like, I w which part of the country did you grow up in?

Tabitha: 54:59

Midwest, Michigan.

Julian: 55:01

Okay. So we, so South Africa in the, in the eighties and Southern Africa, all of the stores closed at noon on Saturday. So you have to get all your shopping done before, before noon. From what I remember may have been one, and you had to buy your alcohol before noon or one because couldn't buy alcohol on Sunday. I couldn't buy alcohol after that time. And just, I'm just using this as an example. Right.

Tabitha: 55:27

It's still that way here in some places.

Julian: 55:29

Interesting. And, and no movie theaters, no sporting events, no shopping at all on Sundays. Like throughout the country, it was the law, all, everything closed on Sundays because Sunday is the day of the Lord. And so I grew up with, with some of that, even though I didn't grow up in a religious family and I went yeah. To a church school because the church schools, oddly enough, the church schools in South Africa were the ones that were opposed to apartheid and were, multi-racial all the other schools were, were forcibly segregated. So, yeah, I'm just, I can imagine, you know, what that, what that must have been like for you. I'm so sorry. You had to deal with that.

Tabitha: 56:13

Thank you.

Julian: 56:14

Yeah, because I see it and tell me if this sounds right to you. I see it as like, okay. A profound rejection of our humanity. Like really the diagnosis in that case is you suffer because you're too human. You suffer because you have these desires and these feelings and these ways in which you're not being. Absolutely true to the teachings, the true teachings that come directly from God through this particular tradition or book. And there's no space for your authenticity, for your anger, for your sexuality, for your vulnerability, for your creativity, whatever it is.

Tabitha: 56:51

Yeah. Yeah. it's interesting because I'm dealing with this a lot lately. I've heard things come back around from the church. I used to attend the last church I attended, in my twenties. And it just it's reminding me of that culture of the I'm horrible. For having these desires and then it gets really perverted to the point where stuff's happening behind closed doors. That shouldn't Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Then the church covers it

Julian: 57:21

up

Tabitha: 57:22

and. There's this like grace just dumped on top of that. It's like a separating from self and then this weird acceptance of things that shouldn't be happening, just severe abuse. And it's just a weird, weird cocktail of. This needs to burn to the ground.

Julian: 57:42

Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of denial. Right. I used to think about it a lot in terms of Jung in terms of shadow denial, right. That, that the shadow, unless the quote unquote spiritual path that you're on makes a lot of space for the shadow. Here. This is kind of like a, like an interesting way of framing it, unless whatever the spiritual path you're on makes a lot of space for the shadow. You're going to end up promising utopia, but delivering the Lord of the flies.

Tabitha: 58:13

Mm. Yeah.

Julian: 58:13

Right. going to be so much better than the fallen world of like mere secular humanists who are, who just have no morality like all this spiritual superiority and all the sense of like, we're going to create a new Jerusalem. We're going to be the shining city on the Hill. When really what goes on is you create this. Zone in which the shadow flourishes, so sort of predigiously because there's no, there's no ways of dealing with it, then there's so much denial around it. And, and then when it is exposed, it's like, well, no, we've just got to cover that up and, and come to Jesus and be forgiven and act like it never happened because we, we actually our worldview and our set of tools and our, our structural ways of dealing with these, with these things is just inadequate. And that's, to me, that's a, that's a really glaring problem with traditional religion in general. And it's why I sort of have no part of it. And I know there'll be people who hear me say that and said, well, that's not fair. What about this? And what about that? And different traditions, different denominations, et cetera. And sure. There's variation there. But in general, I feel, I feel like we've come such a long way. Since, since traditional religions, started that, that there there's a bunch of psychological stuff that needs to be taken into account. and as we know from, you know, the, the horrible lessons of the, the Catholic abuse, story, you know, that that shadow is big and, and destructive. Yeah. Yeah.

Tabitha: 59:49

Talk about trauma on top of drama. Yeah.

Julian: 59:53

Yeah. What was, do you mind me asking the churches you've been involved in?

Tabitha: 59:59

Yeah. My parents had a very narrow N kind of chopped down doctrine. Philosophy, whatever you want to call it. And so we ended up in a lot of churches that were, and we were always changing churches too. It was, they were never saying satisfied. but it would always fall in this realm of like the reformed faith. Right. So it's news, reformation base, but also Baptist. So it was. Both. So typically what that would mean was a very reformed church, but without the infant baptism, with believers, baptism, and, yeah, so that was typically the type of church that we would be in. and my dad he's an ordained minister and then he had started a church when I was like in middle school, but yeah, it was just a very cloistered elitist type of, we have the ones truth kind of thing

Julian: 1:00:53

that's a lot to work through. That's a lot to work through. I really, I really, you know, salute you and it takes a lot of courage and especially when you grow up with it, there's, there's such a strong, emotional taboo against deviating. Well, sadly I have to relieve our nanny. But, but joyfully, because I get to go be with my two and a half year old. Yeah. Yeah

Tabitha: 1:01:16

yeah. Well, I so appreciate you coming on. I so appreciate your time. It's been such a pleasure of spending a little time with you and. Yeah. I like to ask, this is something I'm doing, I don't know where it came from, but if there's anything you'd like to impart to whoever might be listening big or small.

Julian: 1:01:32

Yeah. I mean, I feel, I feel like I've had this, this, this wonderful opportunity to, to share, you know, so many things because the topics we're talking about are so personal and meaningful to both of us. I would say to people who are on the healing journey, stay with it. It gets better. keep finding the people who you can trust to, to be the you that you love being and who have space for the complexity and the vulnerability, and just the honest communication of whatever it is that you're really feeling or that you're needing, or that's coming up for you. And keep, honestly, keep walking away from people who, who don't want to do that because it's never going to feel the way you want it to feel, you know, for those, those close relationships and then to anyone who's, who's sort of in their healing journey and also involved in becoming more of a facilitator or a healer or a therapist or a teacher or whatever your modality might be. know, that, the more, you are ongoingly doing your inner, your own inner work and really becoming as familiar as possible with that territory. The more that's going to translate into how you can be there for others. Not that you're going to project your. Journey exactly onto theirs, but there are universal human truths, even though there's there's variation in terms of how they present themselves, that you can become really, really fluent in that will be gold for the people that, that find you and that seek you out as someone who can be of assistance to them. Yeah.

Tabitha: 1:03:16

That's gold. That's gold. Thank you so much, Julian.

Julian: 1:03:20

You're welcome, Tabitha, lovely to be with you.

Tabitha: 1:03:22

You have an awesome rest of your day.

Julian: 1:03:25

Thank you, you too.

Tabitha: 1:03:26

Bye bye.