Episode 003: Self Love After Spiritual Abuse

My friend, Kristen, and I both left the same cult-like Christian church to heal from Spiritual Abuse & learn how to love ourselves after being taught to hate ourselves. From the The Thorn Birds (probably being remembered incorrectly) to happy juice and special tea, to laughs & love after dark times in a dark place to listening to that little voice inside you to break free of oppression and dangerous people. 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] hi,

how how's your night? It's good, we're finally able to hear each other, which is kind of nice. Yeah. We are. I'm sitting here in front of zoom. And so we're looking at eachother on Zoom and we're recording a phone call. Yes. Cause if we record zoom it freezes. So we had to try a hundred different things before we thought of this

let's it's really time for happy juice and special tea. Cheers.  This is a special night for sure.  So I texted you last night to see if you'd come on the podcast and we've had nothing but technical issues tonight since like six 30 or six 40.

Okay. And it's now eight 32, right [00:01:00]

we prevailed welcome to my podcast. This is a shit show. I'm so excited to be here. This is real life it's real life. This is real life. but thank you for enduring all of this and being so patient and for coming on. Anything to talk to you. Right. I mean, it is pretty amazing. Kidding. Agreed. No one can see my face.

So I need some watch what I'm saying. Just drink more happy juice. Just More happy juice, Tabitha

so I just want to introduce you for like the 800th time. Okay on this phone call. So  Kristen, Kristen Thornburg, do you remember the Thornbirds? No, I do not , what is that? [00:02:00] This is like a TV, mini series adaptation of The book series.

Is it. Oh, I see. I haven't heard of this. That's very strange. anyway, when I say your last name, I think of the Thornbirds. Oh, that's sweet. -- I just remember the girl in the movie gets her period and she thinks she's dying.

So she runs to the priest. Oh, no, she ends up marrying later in life. God. I don't want to watch this show. . I know A little too triggeiring or not, maybe not marrying, but having like a love affair with of course. I don't know. So anyway, I just remember that skip over that. gem of a show it's such a gem.

so Kristen,  tell us something about yourself. Could be anything. I don't care if everyone knows about it or no one knows about it [00:03:00] and tell everyone how we met. Okay. Something about myself.

Just working full time, homeschooling a daughter by myself. I'm trying to survive the pandemic. Like everybody else think everybody's suffering in their own way. you and I met through a cult in grand Rapids, Michigan, the ___________ Baptist church, and there's only a few good things that came out of my time there.

And you're definitely one of them Oh yes. I hear that and you were actually also my wedding photographer and you, and I definitely got along at that point, but I would say you and I didn't really get close until after we had both kind of escaped the wrath of the place. So we knew each other and you'd been around.

but we didn't get close [00:04:00] until. Until later. Yeah, that's right. About a decade later, I would say. Yeah, definitely. And we both had a lot of life lived, I think, in that time. Yeah. Yeah. Shooting your wedding man

time all the time. It was a whole nother life ago. It really was. And I remember. I feel like you reached out to me at one point, because I don't know if it was stuff that you were seeing on my social media or  yeah, I think it was. And I think  you and I had kind of touched base a couple of times over the course of the 10 years since we actually spent time together.

But I think I did reach out to you. And I think you had gone through a breakup and you were sharing something about it. And I said that I was as well. And would [00:05:00] you want to meet for drinks?

To commiserate? As one does. Yes. Because how else do you make your girlfriends? You know, you find them to their DMS and you ask them to be friends and thankfully you wanted to be mine again. So we kind of lose our girlfriends in relationships. Better unhealthy and toxic. Yeah. All your energy goes into protecting this thing.

That's so sacred to you. You lose the things you really care about. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I mean, I definitely had some major codependent tendencies in previous relationships where I would just let things go because it didn't either didn't fit into. My life or it was just too much. Or I became just all consumed with the relationship in many ways for, for, I don't think good [00:06:00] reasons, but understandable reasons.

Cause they were just hard. It did take you like you were saying, it takes all your energy.

Yeah, we have, We did both attend or were a part of this little cult of  __________  Baptist in West Michigan.  it definitely had cult-like tendencies and here's, here's why I'm saying. Saying that I'm just gonna kind of recap my connection with that church.

My  dad is an ordained minister and he had migrated South from West Michigan and was working for a televangelist in Dallas, Texas in the seventies, and  when he married my mom and I was born, he migrated,up to Ohio, found a church there to pastor and then, and he wanted to be closer to home.

So he wanted to move to Michigan. I have [00:07:00] no idea how the connection was made, but ____________  Baptist church, like paid for our family to move up here. They like, I don't know, somehow sponsored the move.

found us a house that we rented for a little while I was probably four and then we were in that church for like the next three years, I believe. And then we left and there was a lot of like turmoil and trauma around that. And yeah, after my parents left, when I was about seven, I heard nothing for the rest of my life.

But the story of how escaping that church was like escaping a cult. Yeah. Like for the next 20 years they would tell everyone leaving that church was like trying to leave a cult. So when I was still living with them until I was 30, so in my mid twenties, when they said, we're going to go back to this place, [00:08:00] I couldn't understand why.

And I was asking questions and then. they eventually wanted to rejoin. And I just said, I don't want to rejoin. I don't want to be a member of this church. And then it was at that point because I lived under their roof. I had to like, they forced me to join. In my mid twenties. So yeah, it threw a lot of people off who had escaped that church in years leading up to that. And years prior, like there was so many people that made an exodus from that church and.

Couldn't understand why my parents were going back. I couldn't understand why my parents were going back. I still don't have an answer to that. Other than they have thing that had changed and leadership had changed anyway, .

tell, tell me how long you were connected and, and. And what your connection is there. Yes. I was connected since I was born. My dad was a pastor and we moved all over. We lived, in New Jersey where I was born and we moved, we [00:09:00] moved to South Africa, where he led a church there.

And then we moved to Canada when I was, very small and we lived there. That's where I would say I grew up is. A small town in Canada where he was the lead pastor there and, we lived there until I was, nine and then we moved, to New Jersey. and there's another sister church there. And then we moved to grand Rapids and that's the church that you.

And I met at, same, they started the church in Canada where my dad was a pastor. So I've been involved in this circle of I don't even know what to describe it as, since, you know, since I was born until I was 15, when I escaped finally, Yeah. I heard the term sister church a lot,

[00:10:00] which is odd that she's female because women weren't even allowed to talk in church. So it's strange that we're sisters. and not Brothers, well, the church is the bride of Christ, you know? Oh, that's a good point. I forgot about that. OMG you're right. Astutely reminded me of that this week in comments where I was getting blasted

for talking against abuse in the church. and I just want to like preface everything we talk about with like, Anything we've experienced in this church gets experienced in a lot of Christian churches. It doesn't really matter. The denomination doesn't matter whether it's Protestant or Catholic. It doesn't, it happens in a lot of organizations in general, not just church, because these things are made up of people and people suck, [00:11:00]

yeah. Church is like a very deceptive phrase too, because a lot of people associate that with like safety and, care and a place you go, if you hit rock bottom, 

and so that's why I refer to it as a cult to, because there's nothing about this place that was safe. That was good. That was life-giving and it was oppressive and abusive. And church is a very generous term for what this place is. Yeah, exactly. language.

That seems to be rhetoric especially among Christians that starts to lose its meaning after awhile. There's a lot of phrasing around not being able to rely on yourself or your judgment and, giving everything to God. And casting everything on [00:12:00] jesus' shoulders, which is casting your cares on him.

Technically, you know, basically the, not worrying passages,  and people were just repeat things over and over and over again, until it becomes part of this ideology that basically we're helpless and we can't rely on our judgment and we can't do anything without God, your whole worldview based all your decisions around that.

Exactly. And, It's just, it's not true. I mean, we, we couldn't do anything if we weren't alive. Right. So from the Christian perspective, we're alive because God created us and I'm, I'm speaking from. Just my Christian upbringing. I'm not speaking for you, Kristin, because I know. And we'll talk about that too.

Like you've had a change of worldview and you think and believe differently now. And I  say [00:13:00] that I'm like on a spiritual awakening journey. I'm not saying anything for certain one way or another. I'm definitely walking away from what I experienced in the past.  It's not just in that church.

I've been in so many churches in my life, like from seven when I left that church. And prior to that, and then between seven and 26, or whenever I started going there again, I've been to a lot of searches in between and. It's not to the same degree, always, the abuse and the manipulation and the brainwashing and things like that.

But it's, it's kind of similar across the board in that we're not allowed to, we're kind of not allowed to take responsibility for ourselves in a way it's a lot of shaming that happens. So that's kind of where this conversation is at right now is people thinking for themselves [00:14:00] always yeah.

And it doesn't matter what you choose to believe. Okay. Always come from a place of being able to think for yourself, but when you're trained, not to think for yourself, that's really hard to, to get back and to gain.

You just lose who you are and it takes so long to find who you are because who you are was always told you're not important. It doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't matter what you feel as long as you're doing X, Y, Z, you avoid hell at all costs. Yeah. Yes. That's how it's, that's how it's presented.

It's a very fear based thing. And I think even if you're at a church that is like a healthier, as healthy as a church could be, I guess, if, if you're at a church in there, you know, there's youth groups and they talk about, Waiting on God's plan and wait for God to tell you what you need to do next.

And it's full [00:15:00] of, of young people are just trying to find their place in the world. Where should I go to college? Who should I marry? What should I do for work? And it's like, all of those years are, are wasted time waiting for something to fall into your lap when they could have been developing skills and, I think it's particularly hard on women because we already feel so defeated and we're not built up even in a secular society a lot of the time.

So I think it's really damaging to wait on God to drop something into your lap when you could be fine tuning skills, getting education, even in a healthy or not abusive environment. I still think it robs so many young people. Being able to believe in themselves and trust that they have a truth inside them, that is going to get them where they need to go.

Yeah, exactly. it is such a weird combo and I was thinking about this today too, like, because you are told to. Put [00:16:00] all of your trust in God, you literally are paralyzed to make a move. Even if you are being as practical as you can be and taking classes or whatever, you're still so paralyzed for such long periods of time that you, you do end up feeling behind.

or you're doing something right. Like a lot of people, they want to be doing something and they're constantly going to the pastor for advice. And the pastor, especially in the church that we're talking about, the pastors were like the authority, even to the point of when someone commits an actual crime.

Yeah. That they think that confessing to the elders is adequate

 even hidden crime. Haven't right. [00:17:00] That's that's happened. Like they know about something that should be reported to the authorities. Yeah. And they don't. Yeah. They think that it's not, God's going to handle it and they're going to handle it. And

a lot of things need secular intervention. yeah. Yeah. They're they, they think they're above the law basically.

The environment kind of created that idea that you could sexually assault. Someone or sexually abuse someone and, you know, confess verbally to the elders and then it like. B. Okay. And then who, who knows who the victim was or what they're going through or if they get justice or whatever.

[00:18:00] Yeah. It's just a very going to pay for their years of counseling. Right. And if they, if they're in that church, they happen to be in that church. It's just going to be more abuse. It's going to be more brainwashing. It's going to be denial of a person's experience. It's going to be okay. Cast all of that on, on Dodd.

Right. And then still feeling powerless even more so the older you get.

Yeah. Yeah. And have you a young girl and walk in there knowing there's people in there that make you uncomfortable and nobody believes you. Or it doesn't matter because they're older than you. They're an elder, you need to respect them. So do whatever they say, essentially. [00:19:00] Yeah. I mean, how many times are you told to respect your elders

 it was almost like you'd be respecting, like disrespecting the very face of God if you were to disrespect, one of the leaders there. So it was honestly very strange because mostly didn't really have any, social skills outside of that building. But for some reason they were in charge of women and children.

Yeah. And it's pretty severe. it gets to the point where it's some big stuff. I mean, there was basically a sex trafficking ring at one point and. I'm not going to go into details cause I don't know the details, but there's been, you know, sexual abuse, [00:20:00] accounts of sexual abuse over and over again.

And

 and there's been some really like, intensely like gross misconduct and, but the stuff leading up to that is like, just as bad and, and insidious, like. It's not as obvious as that, but it's like the amount of control and brainwashing, like, so for example, one of the pastors, this was the sex ring pastor by the way, later, we find out, of course it was, he was such a screamer in the pulpit, like just such a screamer.

And he would like. Point things out. Like my mom said one time, she bent over to pick up a hymnal and he's just like pointed. I think he pointed or just started screaming really loudly. And he's like, some of you don't listen when I've taught, like just kinda like [00:21:00] called her out without calling out her name specifically.

But. If you weren't allowed, right. You weren't allowed to move in that church so much so that when I was sick, one Easter Sunday, like I kept telling my mom I was sick and I had to go to the bathroom and she wouldn't let me move. And I ended up puking all over her. Wow. And making even more, more raucous.

So like squeeze our, our knees or our thighs, like if we were looking around too much. Yeah. Yeah, we weren't allowed to my frontal lobes aren't developed like I'm for, I'm not meant to see her for three hours. Exactly. So it was, I mean, that was the stuff in my being a surfacy surfacelyconnected as my family was.

And obviously they left because there were some major like issues. My parents were just as a beat. They asked them the same way in our home. They just [00:22:00] didn't like someone else doing it to them. And, but they weren't as entrenched as a lot of the people have been over the years and people, I reconnected with my twenties when we went back there.

it's just, this is one church, but like, There are so many churches out there that have leaders that do these kinds of things and these kinds of things go on. It goes on for a long time and people do have to escape and yeah. and it does, it is an escape. It feels like something is going to get you or something's coming after you.

And you literally mentally are escaping hell because you think that is what. What is calling for you? Yeah. It's because you're, you know, where you go when you die is so tied to their opinion of you and our good opinion of you. [00:23:00] It makes, it makes making decisions for yourself really, really, really hard.

And not just really, it feels impossible. I remember when I finally did leave at 30, like I was getting married and I was already going to another church and I sent a letter. I was like, could you please remove my name from the membership? They made me come in and have a meeting with one of the pastors and I sat out your contact information deleted.

So you could be done. He made me come in. He actually talked me into leaving my name on the membership. He's like, no, I'm not going to take your name off. We need to leave it on so we can follow up with you. And I didn't have the wherewithal at the time to do like. Fuck. You take my name off your little roster or whatever the fuck and yeah.

It's like, you literally have no power in the real world. Like you are a joke, you're all [00:24:00] a joke. And you're saying, you're not going to delete me out of your little book. Like delete my number. Like he asked him no, I was racing my own soul. If I left. Right. Took myself off the membership. And he wanted to make y'all freaky.

Isn't it? So creepy in retrospect, who would even do that? A grown man sitting there saying we refuse to delete your name. It's the weirdest thing. But at the time it was so normal in such a big deal. You don't even know what to say back to it. Cause then you wouldn't have a good response. You just know your spirit is telling you to run.

Yeah. And you can't, you can't, or you don't have the language for it yet. You just know you have to get out. Exactly. Yeah. And eventually I just wrote another letter and I was like, no, just take my name off. Like, I don't even, my name is probably still on it. I don't know. But like, they don't have authority and I don't care, now, but it was just that in of [00:25:00] itself, like trying to leave was they made it difficult.

Like, you're a building of a hundred people. None of this matters. I've already lost enough of my life to you, goodbye.

but yeah. So like when did you start? When did you leave and what, what was like the catalyst for you actually getting yourself out of there finally. Yeah, well, I think it had, it had just been kind of slowly building. I think when I was really little, I could always feel something inside me saying something isn't right.

But I didn't know what it was. So I always thought it was me that I was I'm the something's wrong with me. Like these people that I trust and love and take care of me would never. Telling me something that isn't true or frame something [00:26:00] up that isn't true. And so I just kind of thought I was like really dirty and gross and terrible.

And I say that, but also there's a, there was unbelievable all of that. There was a tiny little spark of like hope that I would find the answer. And I didn't know what that was. I didn't know if that meant. I, I would. Be able to find truth that I was good, that I was going to have in that I don't know there, I just was skeptical of the whole thing, but I didn't know why.

So I think it, I just kind of leaned into my curiosity all of the time, always asking questions. So I didn't get the answer that made sense. I kept searching and I always held on to those questions and. As some of them were able to be answered by people outside of this Cult. I [00:27:00] started to piece things together.

Like not everyone grows up like this, not everyone lives like this. There are alternatives and they look a lot happier and they're a lot better. And. Not outside of, I mean, this is still inside religion. So I knew there were other churches that didn't make people feel as bad as my church made me feel all the time as, and as unsafe and scared and abused as I was for so long.

And then once I kind of found that I just decided like, this is what I've been looking for my whole life. Like. I'm done with this. Like my soul is dying and if I go to hell, I guess I'm going to hell. Like at that point I just didn't care anymore. I just knew whatever hell it was. Couldn't be worse than the mental torment of staying there.

So, yeah. Wow. Was there something that, like, [00:28:00] something specific that happened right before you left that you were like, okay, I'm out. I'm never going back. Like, do you remember a moment? I don't think so. So I have memories of a lot of different, very awful moments. And I think it was just the culmination of all of it.

And one day just telling my mom I'm I can't go. I think something must have clicked in my mind that day that I didn't care what it, what I lost. I was losing so much more by staying and. There were a lot of little things kind of leading up to it. I had a friend that died and I was forced to go to church the day after.

And I really didn't want to go i was really upset. And during one of the songs I didn't stand up. I didn't think I was just kind of crying. I mean, I was young. I was like 14 and. some of the pastors came up to me after and said that they were concerned for my soul because I wasn't singing or participating [00:29:00] in service.

And I think that just made me so angry and it was not long after that, that I was just, I was so sick of not feeling safe and people watching me, my every move. I felt like my anger in that moment was justified and I've, I had a reason enough that I just had to tell him I'm never coming back here.

Yeah. So you were 14. Yeah, I was 14 when that happened and I'm not sure how long after that I actually left. I was 14 or 15. And I would go back and visit once in a while, but, I started attending other churches and my friends would pick me up and I would go, some of it's kind of a blur cause it's such a dark time, but, yeah.

Wow. Well, I'm glad you got out

and [00:30:00] I mean, that's pretty young, like that's bold. But you are an aries.

Yeah. Yeah. You just rammed your way out of there. Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I still felt very trapped in my mindset and I still was very terrified of everybody there and what they thought, and I'm not sure why, but. it took me a lot of years to actually feel the full weight of what I had escaped from and feel actually free.

Cause their voices were constantly in my head. So it took a long time for those voices to shut up.

Yeah. And that's, that's how it goes. Like it doesn't just cause you leave. The place doesn't mean you aren't carrying a lot of that with you and you [00:31:00] don't even know it. Like it lived in my bones and it would sneak out at random times. And then I would remember, Oh yeah, they're still in there. Yeah. That's so true.

I feel the same way about, You know, my family attended and were members of that church, but living in my family, it was like that church too, in a way. And my dad being an ordained minister mean, I was living with a pastor all the time and my mom was actually much more overtly abusive.

I left their home at 30 and I'm going to be 40 in December and there are still things now that I don't know are lurking under the surface until I experienced something that triggers a memory or a feeling or this idea that was planted. That [00:32:00] I have no idea why I'm doing what I'm doing.

And so I kind of investigate and say, Oh, that's why am I doing this? Oh, because like, this is what I was told about this thing, my whole life

nearby. Yeah. And it all comes out. Eventually it seeps out. 

It does. What would you tell somebody who is in a church that they feel trapped in and hopeless in? Oh, I'm trying to think if I could go back and tell myself something, I do another 14 year old kid and you're similar to your position. What would you tell them? I would tell them you can leave all this.

And I would tell them [00:33:00] that it's safe and they'll be okay. I would tell them

that they're brave and strong and that one day they will escape and they will find true, true life.

And yeah,

I would say expect it to really suck for a while and expect to be rejected. You'll probably lose your family or friends because they're gonna feel like if someone could leave that it might mean that there's cracks in the system and they can't accept that. So they will, instead of accepting that [00:34:00] reject you and to just expect that, but that on the other side of it is so many more new people and so many more opportunities in it.

You know, this room of a hundred people, you know, who really don't want you to leave and they'll do anything to get you to stay because it validates their own. Doubts and insecurities, and it forces them to reevaluate. So their mind will do whatever they need to do in order to protect themselves and protect the structure of the place.

And honestly just like expect the worst and know it will be over soon because they get bored very quickly. Right. Yeah, that's the interesting thing, like once abusive and I, I consider all this kind of abuse, a type of narcissistic abuse. I don't think, I think you have to be a narcissist to control people in this way and continue to think that your religion or what you believe is the one.

[00:35:00] Yeah, definitely. But once you are out of their grasp, they definitely do lose a lot of interest. If they think there's any chance that they can get you hooked back in, that will keep them going. That will keep them from trying. But when they do that, they have no effect on you anymore. They, they do like a, a cat with a dead mouse, you know, they they'll play with it for a little while, but.

Yeah. And I think that was with all kinds of abuse. I mean, yeah. Once you, once you realize you're being abused and you reject it, abusers need to keep abusing. So they'll find someone that allows them to do it. So if you're not allowing them to abuse, you. They're going to move on. Cause it's really boring.

Cause they won't be able to I'm not talking about minors and small children. That's different. But the reason why most people are abused is because they don't realize that [00:36:00] they're being abused and that's, I hope that  people who are, you know, being abused or have been abused for years and years don't carry any shame because they didn't know.

You just don't know if you knew you would leave, you know? Yeah. If you had a choice in the matter, you wouldn't go through it.

And you wouldn't adapt to the idea that this is normal and acceptable and you deserve it because you would know that you don't, and that's why. You know, for me, the connection between self empowerment and self love with this type of thing is so important. And it's the thing that Christians have a really hard time with.

I think I was raised with the idea that self-empowerment doesn't exist it's ungodly. It's sinful. It's evil. [00:37:00] To rely on your own Buddhist stuff for something. Yeah. Like you're so gross and disgusting and stupid as a human female you don't know anything. Exactly. I mean, I don't and to like, it's a really, really, really handy tool for an abuser to have to too.

To have the right scriptures To throw at you like how sinful you are, how, how shameful you are, you know, anything you do, like the scripture that talks about our righteousness being like filthy rags. Well, that was always thrown at us. Like it doesn't matter what you do. It's all 

a bunch of dirty tampons, how it was presented and literally, and so [00:38:00] we were living under this. Okay. We can't do anything right. For one thing, we just can't but as long as my parent or my elders or my leaders are pleased with me. Then I'm somehow. Okay. Like it was all very confusing and all, very based on human judgment, which I find is so interesting about these people who want to say we can't leave.

We cannot trust our judgment. We can't trust anything. We will always fail without. Well, that's what they made the rules.

They made that rule. Yeah. And made me, and that's where it gets really like confusing. But anyone who grows up in that, or anyone's susceptible to feeling shame or guilt or anything like that for, you [00:39:00] know, Even no reason is going to believe that stuff and believe that they don't have any power to do anything to live their own lives are changed their lives or whatever. And yeah. Also telling people that, that also takes them off the hook for all the shit that they're doing to you. Because they're just going to say, it's not me. It's, you know, the evil inside of me basically. And Jesus take the wheel and all this fun stuff.

Right? Like that's super, that's super convenient for the creepy guys that tried to touch us weird. Yeah. I don't know how many creepy guys are. Oh, man. Yeah, it's a very uncomfortable place to be, especially a woman in a church that has, you know, patriarchal traditions, so many pedophiles [00:40:00] can

yeah. And learning too. Like protect yourself in those situations. It's like, I was always made to tolerate them. I was made to tolerate the men, that were being creepy, like, Oh, well, he's not going to do anything. Well, I'm telling you don't need that shit telling you they did. And I'm telling you, I feel uncomfortable. I'm telling you I feel unsafe.

Yeah. Well, and that's how, you know, someone is so entrenched in their cult where a leader is harming children and making them uncomfortable and no one bats, an eyelash and. You're you need people saying those things too, to be silenced because something must be wrong. They [00:41:00] must've misunderstood. Yeah. And  for your own children to come to you and say, I feel uncomfortable because of such and such a person and for you to turn around and say something must be wrong with my child

almost goes against biology. So that's how entrenched these people are. You know, if, if there's a little girl at school that made Emma sad, I want to punch her in the face. You know, I can't imagine if she came to me, seeing a grown man made her uncomfortable and for me to resent her. So that goes against biology, everything, and you should want to protect your child, but it's so.

Odd me that, that wasn't the reaction. I don't know. I don't understand. I never will, but that's why I'm not there. Yeah. Yeah. It's very, very strange you deserved to have that protection and that nurturing  you deserved to be [00:42:00] taken out of there, right? Yeah. People will stay because they are told so much that they're worthless.

So you think, well, these guys are the worthless measurers. Like I guess I should stay until they claim me as worthy, then maybe I'll find something else. So, and to leave means you have to love yourself and loving yourself. It's hard to do when you've been taught to hate yourself. So you have to run anyway.

Yeah, it just have to get out like that's the first step ever. If you are. You just have to get out and that's when you can start thinking more clearly and things start to make a little more sense and you can start the healing journey,

 this is especially true in church [00:43:00] because the Holy scriptures are their authority to tell us, to interpret the scriptures in a way that. You know mold into what they want them to be like. It's, it's really, there's nothing scarier than being told. You're going to burn in hell.

If you're not pleasing somebody like that's, that's how I was parented. It might be how you were parented too. There's there's no greater motivator to do what an abusive or a person who doesn't know how to nurture. Could do what they want you to do to sit down and shut up fall in line. Yeah. Cause they brianwash you from infanthood.

Is that even a word? Infanthood?  infancy. [00:44:00] So you don't know anything different and. You, we were never given the opportunity to consent to our worldview. Like we were just brainwashed. So realizing that we do have that consent and we get to choose how we see the world was like the most freeing thing and most terrifying thing I could ever imagine, because I didn't know what to believe.

I just knew I couldn't believe that anymore. And so you do whatever your abuser says, because while you're still living in their world, that they've painted for you, you just hope you don't end up there and that you are safe somehow and secure in this little world.

Yeah, definitely. I'm just thinking lately, just about anyone who discourages like free independent thought. [00:45:00] I don't care if they're sharing what they call the good news or whatever, I don't care if they think that they're doing the right thing. Like. Discouraging people from having free, independent thought and thinking for themselves.

 that's just not, it's not helpful and it's not in a way a healthy dynamic. Yeah. And it's not love, it's not love. Like I'm. So I had someone come after me this week, a post, and basically they said that I was disrespecting God through the bride of Christ because I,  I'm pointing out the fact that.

In the Christian Church, these things happen and this person interpreted it as I blame all of my issues and problems [00:46:00] on the church and that's not okay. Well, if I did blame all of my problems on the church, That wouldn't be uncalled for, but that's not what I'm doing. Right. Also, I can do what I want. Like, I don't know if you've ever heard, but I'm an adult and adults get to do whatever they want.

So, yeah. So interesting because there is this mindset especially in the church when unhealthy or controlling people. Like they think that they can just throw a bunch of like Christianese at you and somehow have some kind of authority over your life. It's really, really, really given from this extra. W, you know, I don't think anyone else in a different type of setting or with a different world view would actually have the gall to say, you can't do this because it's, you're disrespecting God.

Like yeah. It's embarrassing guys, it's embarrassing. That's [00:47:00] super embarrassing for y'all like, wow. Yeah.

You better check yourself before you wreck yourself. Yeah. And that's just it's so grained in them that they can't imagine anyone thinking about life outside of this set of rules that they've made. So they have to use those rules against you. And you're like, I don't  believe thema, you don't get it. Like your rules don't mean anything to me.

Yeah. Yeah. The people I admire the most that have faith in Christ are the people who say, this is my experience. This is my relationship with him. Like the people who are just talking from their experience and they are not forcing or saying, we, you should do this or you need to stop doing this, or you can't do this.

Not about. If anything, your faith,should be about your relationship to yourself and to your God. [00:48:00] Like that's what it should be. It's not about, you're not helping anyone. You're not bullying anyone into the kingdom. Like that's just not how it works. Yeah. If, if you are trying to do that, that's just super abusive.

And that's why we should all be thinking for ourselves, like, okay. It's just the bottom line. We should be thinking for ourselves and undoing a lot of the damage and the abuse as it is a big challenge.  but it's not impossible. It's not impossible to do. And life gets so much better. There are definitely hard times and it looks pretty grim at times and you do lose everything. What you kind of lose your whole world, but you do realize you're gaining so much more.

You know that when it's happening too [00:49:00] you can feel your world like slipping away. And it's devastating. Cause you know, you're losing something and you don't know what you're going to get. You don't know if, what you believe next is going to be better. You don't trust yourself at that point to make the right choice because you don't even know what's up from down and you can just feel something on the horizon and you don't know what it's going to be.

But at the same time, it's a juxtaposition because you're extremely excited. Feels like you can do anything. Finally. Yeah, that's a really good point. It's true. It's very exhilarating and exciting. And, empowering. If you do it, you feel kind of invincible. Yeah. Like it's escapes. How literally in your mind, you like you were running from hell.

Yes. Yeah.

I think that the sooner [00:50:00] for anyone who is thinking about leaving or is in the process of leaving and, you know, preparing themselves for the very real possibility that their family could walk away from them.

They're walking away from their family. Yeah. The sooner you can get grounded and grasp onto the idea that you're safe and you're fine. And you don't need your family to survive and you certainly don't need your family to thrive because they were not allowing you to thrive.

And you are going to have so much more opportunity to do that moving forward, the sooner you can grasp onto that idea. The better and yeah, the panic attacks and the anxiety attacks and the generalized anxiety that will I'll come. And that will probably come a little bit further down the road. Like [00:51:00] as soon as your body settles into your family is not around anymore.

Or you don't have this church group, even though it was creepy and weird and uncomfortable, like it was all you knew. Yeah. You feel like you're falling and you don't know who's going to catch you. Yes. Oh, man. I used to say that to my therapist all the time. This is, yeah. This is about like, maybe. I want to say less like nine months after my divorce.

And like I walked away church and my, my unhealthy marriage and it felt like the ground, was falling out from underneath me. A lot. And that's just a brain like wigging out. Cause it's like, Oh yeah, I always had people tell me what to do or living for other people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't know how to live [00:52:00] for what's right or healthy because you never were taught boundaries and you were just taught.

Do whatever XYZ says. And then to realize that you are an adult and like, do you call the shots? Like, I don't need to ask the committee. I am the committee. Like I call the shots. There's not like a board gets to decide how my life goes. Exactly. And you can trust that you're going to do your very best in the moments that come.

That's all you have to do. You don't have to have the whole thing figured out yet, do what you gotta do in the moment and do what you know no to do in the moment. And it's it, it feels overwhelming when you look at the whole thing or you, you look at like, how am I going to do this life? Like, you know, I left my marriage.

Because I jumped from home to marriage to like, I never went to college I didn't have these [00:53:00] supports in place. Like my whole life was just literally working for other people and being dependent on other people. It was this very learned helplessness in many ways. So I did feel pretty inadequate.

Yeah. But I did it. I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. Yeah. I mean, No one really does. Like you learn that later. Like all these people pretended like they had it together cause they have this special thing called religion, but then you realize nobody in the world has anything figured out and that's okay.

Yup. Yeah. That's true. I love that. 

I just, really, my biggest thing is like you, and like I've been doing, and like, I know a lot of people are doing who don't talk openly about it.

 Finding themselves and getting really grounded in who they are [00:54:00] and being empowered to make choices for themselves and to not be in abusive situations, whether it's the church or your marriage or relationship, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if God's name is attached to it.

You never have to submit yourself to abuse ever. And you have the capability of understanding what's good for you and you have the right and the power to protect yourself and put up proper boundaries and to get yourself the hell out. Yep. That's it. You can believe whatever you want to believe like that. I am not trying to discredit any belief other than.

The belief that you don't have any power. Yeah. And other people, once you start finding that power, other people are going to be very intimidated by it. Who [00:55:00] don't believe that they have any power, they're probably jealous that you are free. Why does she get to live so free? I've been doing work for God my whole life, and she can just leave and do whatever she wants and it will make them very angry.

And. I think if you're trying to leave or newly left you need to, remember that Boundaries are going to be extremely important and you don't owe anyone an explanation. And for family, you can say I'm learning a lot right now. And I don't know how to answer your questions. I will get back to you as this unfolds in my life right now.

Like you don't have to say one way or the other. And you don't owe people an explanation for your freedom and someday when you feel safer and you can articulate it, you can share. So, yeah. Yeah. That's a really, really good point. And that's a good tool to have [00:56:00] as you're leaving and. You know yeah. In any type of abuse, an abuser never wants to believe they're abusive.

Cause I think even when someone is terrible intrinsically, we want to be good. So calling them out on it and shedding a light on it. It's kind of pointless at first, especially while you're trying to figure it out. So you don't owe an abuser an explanation. You can just say, this doesn't feel healthy to me right now.

I'm leaving and you know, you'll have plenty of chances to revisit with them

they're not going to hear you. And you're certainly not going to get what you need from them, which is acknowledgement of what's been happening and, a change in behavior. You're certainly not going to get that. And rather than traumatize yourself more to put up those boundaries and to say, [00:57:00] I'm respecting myself and, I don't owe you anything other than to let you live your life.

And. Let me go live my life peacefully while I get my head on straight. Yeah, exactly.

Do you have any closing words of wisdom, Kristen?  if there's something in you that has doubts or questions. Don't be scared of it and lean into it because something in you is giving you that gift and like run with it. Don't be scared of it. It will feel so scary.

best case you're free forever and you're happy and fulfilled. Yup. Yeah. And everyone, everyone deserves to be happy and fulfilled. I think abusers are the most unhappy and unfulfilled people and [00:58:00] I wish life could be better for them. Yeah.

and leave everybody else alone. Yeah, that would be so nice. 

I've really enjoyed sitting down with you tonight. And I so appreciate you answering my text.

  That's awesome. Thank you so much. You're welcome.

This was really fun. I agree. It could have been a nightmare. Oh,

thanks for being cool. Thanks for enduring. All of it. No, it was good. I am going to go to bed though. Yeah, me too. All right. I love you. Have a good night. Thanks again.

[00:59:00] Bye.