Episode 010: Knocking on My Abuser's Door

Jeremy Indika comes on the show to tell what happened when he knocked on his abuser's door and how he brings awareness to the problem of childhood sexual abuse. Jeremy and I discuss what we think goes on in the mind of an abuser based on our experiences and the different feelings and sensations in the body when trauma is ready to be processed in the mind and body. Listen to for more!

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Transcript

Jeremy: 0:00

Coming and backdrop that you've got there?

zoom_0: 0:03

Is

Tabitha: 0:04

it, this is my hovel. It's I, I have downsized my life quite a bit. I live like in a little attic in a cottage style house.

Jeremy: 0:14

Okay. Sounds nice.

Tabitha: 0:16

Yeah. Yeah. You know, fake fire cozier. Yeah. Cool. You know, making life easier. I

Jeremy: 0:30

understand that. I understand that you don't do video. Do you record the video?

Tabitha: 0:37

Yes, I am recording now currently

Jeremy: 0:40

I listened to you on Ryan's edge of the bed podcast. And yeah. Well, after hearing your story, it really is people. I mean, you just never know.

Tabitha: 0:58

No, you don't and I'm so interested in this because I feel like it takes. A special broken ness or something in someone's brain chemistry or whatever. And I don't like to call everything an illness cause I truly believe there is evil. Yeah. It takes a special. Set of circumstances within a person that they can manipulate people and whatever their game is like, it's just, I don't know.

Jeremy: 1:32

Do you think that do you think that all of the people that are using manipulating exploiting other people for their own benefit, do you think that some of them are not aware of what they're doing? Or do you think they're actually aware it's calculated or do you think they're just blindly going through life, satisfying, whatever desires they've got and in that process of satisfying desires, they're hurting other people or you think it's calculated?

Tabitha: 2:12

I think it's both. I think they have to get really smart about some things and then it's becomes calculated. But I think their, their instinct to just use people, it comes out without thought. If that makes sense, it's kind of like a default. I don't know. That's just my, because you know, when I think when you're abused by a parent too, it's kind of like, they're your parent and you need them to love you and you need them to like nurture you and see you. And I don't know if some of that is a desperate need to say, Oh, my mom didn't know what she was doing all the time. So yeah, I mean, I don't know for sure, but it's just living. I think living with somebody for 30 years, you, you kind of get to know, like, you can see that they're triggered sometimes. And also sometimes you can see the wheels turning and. It's kind of like, I think you're really fucking with me right now. I think you're honestly like intentionally fucking with me, but sometimes it's just a reaction to something.

Jeremy: 3:16

So do you, do you worry that people who have been abused in any type of way. Hmm. For a long period of time, do you worry that they'll take on those behavior patterns and I'm not saying repeat the behavior, I'm saying manifest those behavior patterns in, in different ways in the, in their, in their lives. Do you worry that that means that that's gonna

Tabitha: 3:40

happen? I don't think it's a worry. I think it's just kind of a little bit of a given, but also I think. There are those of us who are aware of it and we know there's something wrong. And there are those who intentionally try to understand it and also try to change the behaviors. I mean, I've had fleas, definitely. There are times I've looked in the mirror and been like, Oh my God, I'm acting just like my mom right now. Yeah. It's learned. And if that's all, you know, that's all, you know, but there's also an awareness of this. Isn't how I want to be. You know, and then doing something about it. I don't know.

Jeremy: 4:20

No, no, no. I agree with you. It's it's about awareness awareness within yourself, but also hopefully you, along the way you get taught that it doesn't have to be, you don't have to be that way. Right. So maybe you've been acting these patterns out as a teenager, let's save as an example, and then hopefully you get taught that those patterns, it doesn't have to be that way. You can change, change those things and, and just become like you say, aware. Yeah. Yeah. Complicated stuff, complicated stuff. Yeah.

Tabitha: 4:50

I mean, the mind is extremely intricate and complicated and our souls are, you know, Yeah, who knows what's going on there? It's deep. It's definitely don't understand.

Jeremy: 5:03

It really is. Yeah. I think we know it

Tabitha: 5:06

fraction. Yeah. Yeah. Small fraction.

Jeremy: 5:11

I was thinking, yeah, go for it.

Tabitha: 5:14

You have so many good thoughts. I feel like maybe you should interview me. I was interviewed by Jeremy. Jeremy: Well, there's Let's call it a myth for now. That let's say the situation that I was in child sexual abuse. You know, a lot of people are, I hear the comment of when we talk about Pedophiles they would probably. Abused as children and they're just reacting the behavior. That's why that's an interesting concept to discuss for me, because I don't think just putting that label on anybody that's abused a child before it's correct. Is the correct thing to do. And I don't believe it's the correct thing to do. Number one of the top reasons for that is because then what are we saying about. Victims or survivors of sexual abuse. What we're going to, what we're saying that they're all going to grow up to do the same. Like that's not, that's not true and that's not very nice either. So it's not fair. It's really not. Yeah. Yeah. I could, I could see how definitely see how that would be a struggle. You know, and the sexual abuse thing is so it's so overt and it's such a violation of a, of a child and, and where they are and, and what they can and cannot handle. And It's just one of those things. It's like a line in the sand kind of thing, which is interesting about your story, which is why I want to have you on, because I think, I think there's some interesting things there, like the mind games that we play, the shame that we have and with you, it's probably like a different set of that, but it's also, yeah. So many things anyway. Yeah. I want to hear more from you on, on that too, because. You know, I have, I was just telling my boyfriend yesterday. I'm like, I'm so worried about being like my mom. He was like I wish you would be more assertive and tell me what you want when you want it. And I'm like, but you have no idea. My mom micromanaged every little thing. And like she designed the day, you know, even when I was in D and I'm like, I'm so afraid of doing that. And he's like okay, that makes sense. Let's start with what's currently happening in your world. Yeah.

Jeremy: 7:30

Okay. Yeah, that's right. That's a good one. Okay. So my current mission target vision is to communicate the very difficult subject of child sexual abuse in the most engaging. Interesting way that I can. I am trying to do that because I want to help the other people that are out there already trying to raise the awareness and break the silence. I want to help them. And I also want to try my best to get this discussion on everybody's table. So my strategy is to get it on everybody's table with a concentration on people who do not have a direct link to the topic. I got to try to make it not so scary, not so difficult to watch, not so uncomfortable because that's, that's what it is. Right. I would want to try to achieve Making content that when you're scrolling on your social media you on a Sunday evening, you actually stop because you're like, Oh, I wonder what's been released. And I wonder what, what angle they're coming at the subject now, now I'm talking things like huh. It actually feels as an adult. When you look back at your childhood, And that happened to you, how you feel, you felt as a child when that was happening to you, what do you think would have helped increase the chances that you would have spoken out at the time? Why did you not speak out at the time? What could be done to help prevent this happening to children in the future? So I'm trying to hit the subject from all different angles and I am using photography. Film illustration animation to try to do that. Just to really try to raise the awareness and break the silence that is allowing it to thrive behind closed doors, keeping it behind closed doors. So that's the mission and the vision that I'm on.

Tabitha: 9:56

That's incredible. It's incredible that you're just doing it. It seems like you could just dove in and yeah.

Jeremy: 10:05

So I feel, I feel, I feel great that I can talk about it like this and actually with confidence that it's going to take off. And it's really gonna turn into something I'm not every day isn't fit. Full of confidence. You know, some days I've got my head in my hands and I'm like, what are you doing? You know, but yes, you know, we got to keep pushing through those, through those cause the better days are the better days. Yeah. And well it's been a long journey and process to get to this point, you know, because I mean it was. Two years ago, I really started this project. Okay. And it was five years ago. I spoke out for the first time to a close friend. So

Tabitha: 11:02

yeah,

Jeremy: 11:04

I'm 35 now. And I spoke out for the first time to, from when I was 27. So eight years ago, actually I spoke out to a close friend for the first time.

Tabitha: 11:14

Interesting. Yeah, the process it's such a process. It's not like this night and day different or

Jeremy: 11:24

it really isn't. I mean, I didn't, I didn't start thinking about what happened really until I was 24. The abuse went on when I was between eight and nine. Okay. So 24 it's, 15 years after. And and yeah, I, I, up until I was 24, I hadn't forgotten about the abuse. Right. I just didn't care about it.

Tabitha: 11:57

It just kind of goes in a different box.

Jeremy: 12:00

Yeah. Yes, yes, absolutely. And the box is the metaphor that I like to use. I actually got explain that metaphor from somebody. And they said when it's something, when things are going on as a child w to you as a child, that you cannot process you put it in a box, lock of box away, put it on the shelf and save it for later. Yeah. And what will happen is as you get older and you're ready to start looking at that information, the box will sort of start to open its lid for you. So I believe if we take that metaphor when I was 24, that started happening for me because all the other times up until I was 24, I was, my life was going well. I had great friends. I had a career. I was working as a structural engineer, designing. All sorts of fantastic, exciting things. And I was just having a good time. Now. What's really interesting was there would be things here and there that would remind me of, of what happened. So something would come up on the news. You know, when the Jimmy Savile story went massive like that, I was like, I bet that's the same thing that happens to me. Something will come up on a film, somebody would say something in passing conversation and it would remind me of it, but just for a very brief moment, and then I'd continue doing what I was doing. Yeah. But yeah, but then it was when I was 24 that the memory started coming back and I literally couldn't get rid of them. That's when things started turning,

Tabitha: 13:33

were they like flashbacks for you or Just thinking about it all the time.

Jeremy: 13:40

Yeah. Initially it started off as feeling really uncomfortable and low, not sure why. And it would last small amount of time. I was like, that's weird. That's a really new feeling. That's where I was aware that something, something had changed. Then some months went past the frequency of these. Low moments would increase the length of these low moments would increase. And then they came coupled with flashbacks.

Tabitha: 14:12

Interesting. It's like our body remembers before. Yeah.

Jeremy: 14:16

Yeah. Brain does. Yeah. I think you're right. I really think you're right. Yeah, I think, and I think it introduces it gradually to you and then, and then the box. Let's you let's, you have more and more gradually as you can handle more. You know, I really thought, I really honestly thought as soon as I realized what this was, what was going on when they started, when the low point started coming coupled with memories of the abuse, I thought to myself, the best strategy, you're not I'm 25. At that point, you know, the world, my, my mind was like the world's my oyster, you know, I was doing well in my job and partying and enjoying life and, and I thought. The strategy to get me through that would just be to ignore them, just ignore them, keep bagging them away and they'll go away. Of course they will,

Tabitha: 15:06

you know? Yeah. I have a friend Ryan Fitzpatrick. But the idea that. You know, doing that, like kind of dissociating or batting things away gets things done. Yeah. Yeah. And it really can only go on for so long.

Jeremy: 15:23

That's it? Yeah. That's what I learned. That's what I learned. It works, you know, I bet it away. It'll go away from him about it away. We'll go away for three weeks, then two weeks then one week, and then, then I realized ah. They're not going away for good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's when I realized I needed to do something about it. And that's what led me to speak out to a close friend for the first time. Yeah.

Tabitha: 15:51

I don't want to say it's like so brave because I think we feel like we're at the end of our rope when we get to that place, like, I feel like, did you ever feel like you were dying? Did you ever have panic or I'm trying to, it's hard to compare people's stories, but I'm just trying to get like for anyone else who might be waking up to something like that, that you know, that what happened, isn't just something that can go away. And it's it's with you. Like what that might be feeling like.

Jeremy: 16:21

Yeah, for me, I suppose I was lost. I felt lost because I had no answer. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so what is it that I do with this then? Like, if I, if ignoring it, isn't getting it to go away then, like, what do I do? And I dunno, unless you go and see somebody professionally. I mean, where's the resource for, you know, I mean, now that you have YouTube, so I'm sure you could find what, like really you could find, you could, I'm sure you could find somebody talking about. What they did in a way that resonates with you online, but you know, maybe eight years ago, that's not where I was at searching online, but

Tabitha: 17:06

yeah. Yeah. I didn't think about that. Like, what's the thing that would've gotten my attention as a 17, 18 year old, 19 year old kid when I was needing to like move away from home and get away.

Jeremy: 17:21

But now you've got, now you've got many people talking like yourself. Right. Doing your thing. Maybe you would have come across somebody.

Tabitha: 17:30

Yeah. That's the thing, but internet wasn't even allowed in our home. So it would have been like the brief, like the control. Right. And that's what I also want to talk about. Like you come, I'm curious about your, your origins, your family life. Like, what was that like? How, how did you grow up?

Jeremy: 17:49

So I was growing up in a very. Average usual family. Yeah. So there was no, there was just no issues in that part of my story. It's just somebody who was looking after us when my parents were at work. And that's why a percentage of my work is, is, is really trying to communicate to people in the best ways that I can, that it doesn't this pedophilia. Or Peter, Peter fouls, they don't care about social status wealth or any race. They don't care for that. Right. They're just going to take every opportunity that they can. And so for, for anybody that thinks our, this would never happen to my child, or I know what my child would tell me, you're like, That needs to be discussed a little bit more because I don't believe that that's true. Like, you know,

Tabitha: 18:50

so, yeah. So, I mean, I'm thinking about the, the level of manipulation it takes and they talk about grooming. Right. And there's definitely a process there and I'm thinking about like, I'm sure you've racked your brain about this too. Like what would a kid need to have as a toolkit? You know, going into that, I think we all hear about, you know, don't take the candy from strangers. Don't go looking for a lost puppy with some guy in a van, you know?

Jeremy: 19:20

Yeah.

Tabitha: 19:22

But I don't think there's a w I wonder if there's a way to communicate well and to teach well, like what maybe what's going on in our bodies when someone's manipulating us, or when we're hearing something. And, and just that's. I like the idea of teaching kids meditation. I wonder if that's even a thing like being so aware of yourself and as a, as a child, and what's going on with you, if that would also be helpful, you know, for anything like that, but it's, it's so hard to know. Unless there was like a YC done study.

Jeremy: 19:56

So it's it's it's an area that I'm so interested in about how we can help children recognize the grooming process or recognize any type of abuse and speak out about it. It's, it's really actually very interesting and such a challenge to think of different ways. The meditation thing I. Wow, that that teaches you lots. Right? So emotions, emotions as well. And, and I have heard occasionally that it's getting into schools now, which is a fantastic thing, but I'm just about to release a short film about why I believe I never told anybody about the abuse. At the time it was going on. So actually covers covers what we just, what your question is. And for me in my situation, I didn't know what was right. I didn't know the difference between good and bad touch. I didn't know about private areas. I didn't know about sex. Yeah. And just to add in there, I was going through this abuse in 1993. So you think what children are like in 1993 to now it's very, very different because now they're seeing. Music videos, which could be classified as soft porn. Right. You know, and they've got the phone, which they can access anything. And it's, it's talked about a bit more, so they're a bit more clued up, but in 1993, you were not clued up. And so I did not, no, I did not know what the rules around private areas were. Yeah. Maybe if that was taught, I would have, it would have increased the chances that I would have spoken out. I didn't know what sex was. I didn't know. that. There had to be no secrets kept anybody to ask you to keep a secret. You are to tell somebody if somebody asks you to do that, now I've heard a lot of people say, or we couldn't speak to our. Charlie about that, because that would ruin his innocence. Oh my God. That would just scare him. But I'm like, okay, that's true. I'm not going to say that that possibly wouldn't happen. However, I think the consequences of not doing it are scary. Yeah.

Tabitha: 22:26

I follow this account on Instagram called sex positive families. Do a lot of education, like educating parents on how to talk to children about their bodies and sex and all of that. But in a way that's like, you know, For kids. Yeah. And in a way that's all about their boundaries and them as an individual.

Jeremy: 22:47

Why do we think it's not scary to say to a child. Don't speak to strangers. Otherwise they'll put you, put you in the back of their van and take you away and you'll never see. So, so we do that. We do that, and we're okay with that. So what what's so scary about saying, Oh, these are your areas of your body. And if anybody touches you there, then you're to tell mum and dad.

Tabitha: 23:11

I think there's, I think socially there's just so much shame. You know, our parents grew up with shame sex, and then they had no clue what they were doing and just avoided it altogether. If you avoid it, it's not there. Right. I

Jeremy: 23:30

mean, yeah, it's right. It's right. But then another interesting question is if you asked any adult and said, if, when you were a child, you were taught. Where the private area on your body was. And if anybody touches you there you're to tell somebody, do you think that would have scared you, that it would have ruined your childhood? I don't think anybody's saying yes. I think everybody's saying, yeah, that probably would have been quite good information, actually.

Tabitha: 23:56

You know, it's a weird thing that what you're talking about right, right now is reminding me, my dad used to like, not hug me and my sister, because he was afraid he was going to get accused of this or something. I, I like, I know isn't it, but I think there are so many weird built up fears in society in general. Like that's just one, right? Like he, and then there are all those stories. I think coming out in the nineties even have like false memories, supposedly coming up in therapy, all people being, you know, he was very afraid of that.

Jeremy: 24:27

Yeah. I know that. I mean, that's just, that's just scary though, isn't it? Because it does That's teaching these children because they're children and they don't actually understand why the rules are there. Does that teach, teaching them increase the number of claims false claims? I don't know. I

Tabitha: 24:48

don't know. I don't know. I just think there's so much, you know, like to your point or question, even like, I think things pile on and we all have our own weird, right? We've you've got fears around that probably. Yeah, definitely my, the way people view you. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Unnecessary and unkind and all of that stuff. But we get these things in our heads and, you know, and so it's kind of like those things get packed down and talking about it is I think just a wonderful way to start starting the conversation. I

Jeremy: 25:24

think so. I think to anybody I get asked a question. What would you advise to somebody who has never spoke out before and has the feeling that maybe they want to my answer to that is always do whatever you feel comfortable with don't, don't bite off more than you can chew. I think I need a better way of metaphor for than that, but, you know, you know You know, do what you feel is right for you at this moment. But if you don't want to speak to somebody face to face, just write it that also. Yeah. These are all types of therapy. I believe they're not, they're not necessarily sitting with a professional, but just to write down what you're thinking is huge.

Tabitha: 26:08

Sat down with a professional. I'm just curious.

Jeremy: 26:11

I never have. And yeah, no problem. Yeah. Okay.

Tabitha: 26:17

No, I just put it out there because I think there's so much around self-healing now too, you know, and the ability to know what you kind of need. So continue. I want to hear. Yeah.

Jeremy: 26:29

And I think when I started writing when I, so I spoke out to a close friend and I believe that's a huge step in anybody's journey. Yeah. Then I felt really good about it. And then I thought that's everything done with we? Good. Maybe two years later, the feelings were back. I spoke to another person. Then I thought we're good. Then a year later, the feelings I spoke to another, and then it started like becoming more frequent. And then I started realizing, Oh, the remedy for it is to speak. Every time you get, feel rubbish, speak to somebody. Now I was very fortunate to have have people around me that I could speak to within, within two or three years, I'd spoken to maybe 20, 30 people. And I'd become really comfortable with my story by this point. And the fear of what other people may think about my story, which is definitely there was reducing. It was like the confidence was like eating away at the fear. As I was speaking more and more. That's what led me to actually just before that, I started getting very curious about the subjects at this point. Now I was still engineering. I'm still a structural engineer at this point. So I was still working, but I start in the evenings. I started researching the topic. I wanted to know why people are doing this, what it does to a child's brain. What's happening to adults that have been abused. What are the statistics, all of these things what's causing pedophilia. So I was, I was really interested in this. I started researching and I come across the chat room and it was one lady's message that struck me so hard. This lady was seventy years old and she never told anybody. And she says that she has the strong suspicion that that has affected every single thing in her life. Her relationships are trust issues, her openness, and has really held her back. And that's when I thought to myself I should try to do something about this. Right because I'm in a really great position here. A very fortunate position here because I've told lots of people. I feel confident this lady has struggled because she'd never spoke her story or never felt she could. So because you're in such a great position, I just feel like you should at least start speaking of story. So I had coincidentally a couple of weeks before that been to open mic nights. Right. And

Tabitha: 29:05

he used to go to those all the time when the world was online.

Jeremy: 29:11

So you know about that, that scene. Yeah. And in London, it's huge. Yeah. So I've been to a couple before and I just had a kind of light bulb moment. I was like, I could go there. Yeah. I could go there, sign up on the door and I could just tell my story for five minutes on stage. Yeah. So I started writing my story. That was the first time I'd written it. I started trying to write it from different angles. I started trying to talk about things like why I never said anything when the abuse was going on. And, and I was trying to write performances. Now, this is where I believe my therapy started coming in. Right. Because I was trying to unpack what happened. I was trying to dissect what happened. I was trying to make reason and understand what happened. And I just believe this process was, was. What helped me grow?

Tabitha: 30:03

Definitely. Yeah.

Jeremy: 30:07

That's so good. Yes, it was, it was very nice journey. It really was.

Tabitha: 30:12

Yeah. I'm so glad for that. It's can be a really, it's such a weird. Process. And yet it makes sense when you look back and you're like, that makes sense that it came, that came out or come up when it did. But as you're going through it, it's, it's like, what is happening to me? What do I do?

Jeremy: 30:36

How are you, how are you feeling? The more podcasts that you do, the more times you tell your story, like you feel that that's a kind of therapy for you

Tabitha: 30:44

in a way. Yes. And there's this other part that just feels like. I don't know I'm going to get in trouble somehow.

Jeremy: 30:53

Okay. That's your mom's speaker. You think that's your mom?

Tabitha: 30:59

I definitely hear her voice. Yeah. But you know, it was 30 years of living that, you know, I think the deprogramming takes awhile and you know, like how much to tell and, and make sure making sure it's my story and not, not. You know, I might even cut the part where I said specifically about my dad, but use your example because it's not, you know, it's not really, my that's not mine to share, although that probably affected my relationship with my father. Yeah. So I have a hard, I have a hard time knowing like, cause I like to connect all the dots. Where did this start generationally? I can see it in my grandparents and my great-grandparents, you know? Yeah. I can see all the stories and it's like, I want to tell this story because I think it's so important to also look back and to say, what were, what were we predisposed to as people, you know, coming into this world and. All that stuff. It all carries down, you know,

Jeremy: 32:02

but when you go public with it, you are right. You knew you do need to do what is necessary, I suppose. And, and yeah, maybe you don't always need to bet or

Tabitha: 32:16

I have a problem doing it though, either. Like, so part of me is like, Yeah. I don't know. I don't think anyone has a really good answer on that. You know, I like, I like Anne Lamott's take on it. She's like if people wanted you to speak like kindly of them or go to them, then they should have treated you better. You know, that kind of a thing. Like it's that in a way is true. Like, what we put out into the world comes back to us and in a way. You know, a person can't be put on trial for the things my mom was doing.

Jeremy: 32:47

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I thought about

Tabitha: 32:49

that. Yeah. Sometimes I'm like she should be in jail, but for what really, other than, you know, basically she's a great cult leader and that's what it is. I think anyone who abuses and is able to manipulate someone, they, they have, yeah. There's a special thing. There needs to be.

Jeremy: 33:15

If yes, they have a trait, they have a trait, they have a trait that is powerful to lead them to do this, or at least

Tabitha: 33:24

were assigned like in the Puritan days of the word, like sign around their neck that says I'm a manipulator watch out.

Jeremy: 33:32

What would you, what would you like? Do you think, let's say. Your mother's actions were punishable or you could prosecute for them. Do you think seeing her,serve any type of prison sentence would give you any relief would give you any, any, any feeling that's positive? I

Tabitha: 33:54

don't, I don't think that it would honestly. I think the thing is like something we were saying. So you were saying, if there are anything were punishable, you know, in some countries it would be like, she, the, the spankings that she gave us were beatings, but because we were told over and over, this is a spanking sparing, the rod spoil the child, blah, blah, blah. We're doing what the Bible says to do. Okay. Right. Like you're getting physically hurt and being told that this is what God wants. Yeah. Wow. Those two things paired together. It's like, of course, of course the kid's not going to tell on their parents, I'm doing what God wants. And, but, you know, in some countries you'd be, you know, you're not allowed to hit your children, whether it's a spanking or not. I had someone ask me on my account. Like if, if narcissism was illegal in my country, I didn't know. They were getting I'm like, no, I don't know.

Jeremy: 34:54

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cause it's it's yeah, the whole, the whole area is gray. Isn't

Tabitha: 34:59

it? But no, it wouldn't make me feel better to have her locked up. The, the results what's happened in her lifetime and the people she's affected, you know, I feel very like. Protective of the people in my life that have been negatively affected and their whole lives, you know, are turned to something else, not just upside down, but to something that they really shouldn't have been in the first place. And that, I don't know if there's a way to undo that somehow. Yeah, I do that. But having her locked up. No, like I don't want, I don't want to pay my mom back. I don't, I don't want revenge on my mom. I just want people to be aware and self-aware and feel empowered to not let this ruin their lives. Somehow

Jeremy: 35:43

I'm often asking myself this question, how would you feel if the guy that this to me went to prison? It wouldn't give me any feelings that are uplifting or positive. You know, I mean, realistically that the sentence for this particular crime in my situation is small. You know, we're talking a small number of years and actually him going to prison is that going to achieve anything great? I don't think it would I don't know the prison system. I would guess that they're put on a wing with the other Pedophiles or talking about how annoyed they are. They got caught and better ways to not get caught next time. Like it's a guess, but I think I wouldn't be too far off guessing like that I've been, they just come out. I don't know what type of rehabilitation programs they've got going on. I'm not sure. But yeah, I don't think a prison sentence would, would make me feel any better. I think we just

Tabitha: 36:46

want it to

Jeremy: 36:47

stop. Yeah. Which unfortunately is not possible is that you mean the feelings inside of

Tabitha: 36:54

us? I think we want abusers to stop what they're doing and, and we feel powerless to do anything about that. So we're trying something right.

Jeremy: 37:06

And that that's absolutely the reason why I've gone after him is because when I started speaking open mic nights, I was talking about prevention. And one of the things that I started thinking as I was writing these performances was. I was saying to myself, how can you go on the stage and talk about preventing this, how we can prevent this when you haven't found out when you haven't sorted out your own situation yet, meaning you haven't found out whether he's still doing this yet. Right. So you can't go and. Talk to other people about what they should do when you haven't finished your own work yet. That's how my mind was thinking. Really?

Tabitha: 37:51

Yeah.

Jeremy: 37:53

And I hated it because I knew what it meant. You know, I have no contact with this guy. I didn't have any contact with this guy from when it finished, when I was around nine. So I'd never seen him. I knew didn't know where he was. And I knew thinking about. Is he still doing this to more children, you should find out about it meant I needed to try to find him. So yeah, it's not about me pursuing him and trying to prosecute him, which is going on at the moment. It's not about, it's not about trying to get him and put in prison or go actually getting put in prison does serve some benefit because it takes him out of the community.

Tabitha: 38:34

Right, right. That's what I mean by like, we just want it to stop. That's the only purpose it would serve. It would stop it for a little while. Yes,

Jeremy: 38:44

absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah, I just started to look for him online. I couldn't find him. I found his wife's Facebook profile. He was in all her pictures. He's got a family now and to see his face was crazy. It was like, you hadn't changed. It was the first time I'd seen it in 25 years.

Tabitha: 39:07

Oh my gosh. Well, how did where you

Jeremy: 39:10

describe it? It's like, yeah. That picture that I saw felt panicked. I felt hot. I felt my heart was racing. I couldn't believe it. I had to quit. Keep checking, keep looking at it and then looking away. Then I forced myself to look at it and I was like, Oh my God, it's him. Wow. I messaged his wife. I got a bad response. And then I said to her, well, then I'm just going to have to go to the police. If you're not going to put me in contact with him. I asked her to put me in contact with him. Cause I wanted to discuss with him about what he did to me. I didn't know what I was thinking at the time, because that was, I was, I was in belief that she'd just be like, okay, fair enough. Here's his number and we just, and we just talk. I really, I really that's what I wanted. I wanted to meet with him in a coffee shop to go through what happened. Yeah. They like, that was a bit naive. That's cute.

Tabitha: 40:18

That's cute. She's probably being just as manipulated in life. I mean, I can't imagine. Like, if, if I fully didn't believe someone was, if enough things were happening, I would be like,

Jeremy: 40:36

so he's probably, he's probably groomed her.

Tabitha: 40:39

Totally most likely. I mean, I don't want to make any yeah. Either that or she's in on it, you know? And I hope

Jeremy: 40:50

yeah. Yeah. Cause it would be very, very tragic if she was also in on it, you know, but if she's being, she's being, she has been manipulated by him. What followed from the police investigation. After the year it was closed because there wasn't enough evidence. She had to give a statement. Of course, he had to give a statement. I had to give a statement. There was a big investigation, then it was closed. Then a couple of months later I was getting more and more angry that he'd denied it, you know, in my eyes. I'm like, yeah, if you were man enough to do that, Then you should be man enough to meet me now, just meet me. You know, we can do it. I said to him, I sent him when I sent these messages, I said, we can do it on your terms where you want you name the place you named the time I will come to you. Right? I was so I was just angry that he had not been that been big enough to, to come and meet me.

Tabitha: 41:50

So from like a rational person perspective, it'd be like, if you accidentally hit a puppy and you like own up to it, it's

Jeremy: 42:01

not the same thing. No, it's really not. It's really not because he's going to, he's going to deny this too. It's great. Isn't it? He's going to deny this.

Tabitha: 42:10

Yeah, he has to, his, his, his psyche is going to crack his ego. Can't take it. He's not man enough though. Yeah,

Jeremy: 42:20

you're right. Yeah. So, yeah, so, so I just went looking for him and One thing led to another. I went looking at workplaces because I knew it was a nurse. I went looking for his wife to see if I could get in front of her, which I managed to do, but then still no contact from him. Now, actually, by this point, I've turned up so many times into their life. Surely his wife is thinking, hang on a minute. Yeah.

Tabitha: 42:50

And she probably did. And every time she started to, he found some, I mean, so

Jeremy: 42:56

interesting.

Tabitha: 42:58

Who knows when I'm behind closed doors, it had to have been

Jeremy: 43:02

gymnastics. He's my son, he's very good at this. That's you know, like when I turned up at her work to ask her why he hasn't contacted me, this was after the police investigation. She must've gone home. And said to him when he just started sleeping again, since the police case had finished and said to him, you are never going to believe who turned up today. Yeah. And he would have been like, I can't believe he still hasn't gone away. Surely she is thinking in her head, Hey, this is a man. Why would he make it up? And why has he not stopped?

Tabitha: 43:42

I'm sure she is sure she is. And whether she went to him and told him or not, or she kept it to herself, he's going to deny it again. Or who knows. Maybe, maybe he's got something on her and he's threatening her.

Jeremy: 43:59

You never know. I would love to find out one day. I would love to find out one day, but she's on his side because after seeing her at her work I then managed to find out where she lives, where they live. And I went and knocked on his door and that's when I faced him, he answered the door, which was just the craziest moment. He answered the door, went to slam it sharp. I put my foot in it, put my foot in front of the door, miraculous, clean time before he got it, managed to close it. And we had a confrontation for three or four minutes of verbal confrontation. And. His wife was in the background. She called the police. Once I'd finished telling him everything that I wanted to tell him I went and waited for the police at the top of the road because there's no need for me to run away. I'm there for a reason, you know, I'm not trying to hurt anybody. I'm just there for a reason. And around the corner came three or four police cars, blue lights, the whole works. And yeah. Were

Tabitha: 45:01

you hoping to get a sense of if, if he's still doing this or also just have him admit or one or the other, or,

Jeremy: 45:09

mm, I think, I think now the, the task of finding out or stopping, finding out whether he's doing this to more children, that that is now coupled with him wanting him to face me. Yeah. Yeah. Now I'm like, right. Okay. So I want to make sure you're not doing this. One of the ways was to try to prosecute hopefully they would seize your computer and all of these things. Now that didn't work. Now you're going to have to face me and you should face me because I'm a man now, and we need to talk about what we did before and that's why I went to his house to confront him about it. I wasn't sure what, what, what the result would be The result was I ended up in a police cell at two in the morning until two in the morning and I got arrested and now I've been to court three times and they still haven't decided what to do with me. But I'm in trouble. Because yeah, because I'm now being prosecuted for harassment for trying to make contact with them. The number of times that I did. I'm in trouble for stalking, for finding out where they live and I'm in trouble for assault for pushing him in the chest when he tried to slam the door on me. Yeah. So yeah, I'm now in a bit of trouble with the

Tabitha: 46:33

law. I like the, I mean, I liked that you're describing this like this and I've seen the reenactment video on your YouTube by the way. So anyone interested in that can go check it out. But it's interesting because that's what happens on. Multiple micro levels during manipulation, right? They they're, they've done something to you. And when you speak out about it or try to confront it, they turn around and call you the abuser. They call you the one breaking the law cops called on you. It's very common microcosm of

Jeremy: 47:11

it's their natural reaction to it. Isn't it? Because now they're caught out.

Tabitha: 47:15

Yeah. They're like children. Yeah. I really feel like they're underdeveloped in so many ways. They have no ability to take responsibility,

Jeremy: 47:33

but it's interesting. It's interesting because actually we go through the abuse and. Possibly periods after feeling like we're the ones with no power, but actually we got all the power because we got the story, we got the story and we're not afraid to speak it. And then all of a sudden it becomes our we're in the driving seat. They will never be in the driver's seat. How can they ever be in the driving seat? Cause we're calling them out. Yeah,

Tabitha: 48:03

yeah, yeah. So it's yeah, it's so true. There is something you were talking earlier about me sharing my story. And if that's, I do feel in a way, like I own the story now, it's no longer, I'm having to tell people something that my parents wanted the world to believe about what went on in our home. Like I'm not going to carry that lie anymore. I mean, it's obvious it's written all over our family, the destruction. And there's a reason for it. And all it's done since then is helped others who were affected by it put two and two together. Yeah. And for that, that's why, you know, that's why I'm grateful. I've told it and the people who've needed to hear it so far. I've heard it. And others are coming to me and saying, I'm realizing this is what was going on in my family. And this is I'm taking response. I'm now taking that responsibility of turning this around.

Jeremy: 49:00

So it's owning it. I think that's a, I think that's a really, that's really great way to put it. You own it instead of it owning you.

Tabitha: 49:06

Yeah. And you it's, yours is so like down the line, right? It's it's, it's definitely like sexual abuse toward a child is definitely wrong. But there is a lot of shame that people carry and there's a lot of secrets and hiding and wondering how much you were a part of that and wondering like all of that stuff. And then also you're like taking it and saying no more. I'm doing everything in my power to get the message out and to. Change the way the world operates around this stuff, because it's been going on since the beginning of time.

Jeremy: 49:44

Yeah. And I'm really trying my best to shed the embarrassment that comes with it. I'm trying to shed the shame that comes with it. I'm trying to shed the shyness that comes with it in myself, because then I hope that that will reflect in my work because. Yeah. You know, when we think about it rationally that embarrassment, that something like that happened to you as a child or young person, there is, there is a bit of a, there is an embarrassment that comes with it because you feel like you were tricked or you were made to, you were taken for a fool, or you were somehow stupid because you fell for this thing when none of that is useful or necessary, you Either a child or you were under somebody's manipulation, you would not to know. Yeah. So I try my hardest to shed these unnecessary unproductive emotions. And then I hope that that people can see that in my work, because there's, we do on a bigger level. We do need to change the narrative. We do need to change the way we are dealing with this. Yeah. Because it's not good. It's not good. It's not good. It's not on, it's not, it's not. Okay. So I think for those of us that do have a story to tell, I do really think it's just so powerful to tell it. It's so great. It's so great to tell it. I mean, the, the potential in telling your story is it's unlimited. It's so cheesy, but if you could just help one person, but usually it's a lot more than one person.

Tabitha: 51:25

Yeah. But it's so true. It's so true that just helping one person, like yeah. Means the world. Yeah. And then do you ever have those moments where it's like, everybody knows about this and like, I don't know if it's doing any good and like I pulled it all out. Yeah, I know. Yeah.

Jeremy: 51:43

Yeah. We spoke about it at the start, you know, some days, some days you're like. What am I doing? Why, what you think, why do you think your voice. Needs to be heard. Why do you think you can do this? Why do you think your story means anything? Yeah. Those days come and they're really annoying actually. Because you know, they'll pass, but when you're in them, it's like, this may never pass, you know, but you know, two days later. You're feeling good. Again, your upload, and again, you're speaking again. You're, you're actually realizing there's even better ways to talk to your story and explain it. Maybe you actually discover a new part of the story that you've never spoken about. That's really interesting to you and possibly other people and yeah.

Tabitha: 52:28

Yeah. So true. That's good. Yeah, it is. You're inspiring. Definitely. And like you, you're doing really, really good, important work and thank you so much. I wished all those crappy days you could be like, that could be in the forefront of your mind. Right. But yeah, I know you've probably got a good support system around you and yeah. Yeah. It's, it's good. It's good. Heavy stuff. Do you have any resources or anything right now that you're. Sharing other than like your YouTube and your Instagram and like,

Jeremy: 53:04

youTube, Instagram, Facebook, a little bit of Twitter, but they're my platforms got a website coming out in a couple of months, which is super exciting. I'm working with a great, yeah. A designer called Maria and we're thought we're trying to detail the history of the project, the vision for the future. We're going to have a go fund me page on there so that we can try to create some revenue to help fund these projects because the filming projects, the animation projects, the illustration project, they're very expensive. People need paying. And at the moment I give I've stopped my engineering career. Collected what I have and I'm funding the project at the moment, which is fine, but of course there's no tree of money and my money will run out. So the website is exciting. It's a massive move forward. Then all the content will be on there. And I really do hope that Something can be created. That's just super useful and can just continue, continue forever. That's the plan.

Tabitha: 54:14

Yeah, that'd be amazing. And I think it's going to happen you're you already have such great quality work out there. And I can tell you to really put thought and effort into making this and not just enjoy like pretty to look at, but like formative and you're very passionate and easy to watch and amazing. Yeah.

Jeremy: 54:33

Yeah. I really appreciate

zoom_0: 54:34

that.

Tabitha: 54:34

Yeah. Thank you for what you're doing.

zoom_0: 54:36

That's

Jeremy: 54:37

cute.

Tabitha: 54:38

Is there anything else, what would you like to share to somebody today who might be waking up to the things that maybe happened in the past, or even someone going through it? Like, do you have anything you want to impart?

Jeremy: 54:52

I would say you're strong enough to get through it. You will get through it. You, you all, your strength was built during and after the actual abuse. And that's more than more strengthened than is necessary to get through this situation that you're going through now. So you've got this and there are such a gnawing dark days frustrating, but they're just, they're just dark days that will pass, like and if you ever feel like showing your story. Definitely share it. Yeah. Tell us some great. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah.

Tabitha: 55:35

Thank you for what you're doing.

Jeremy: 55:37

Thank you

Tabitha: 55:37

so much. Thank you. All right, we'll be in touch. I appreciate you. You too. Have a good night. Bye bye.