Episode 019: Deconstruction with the N@KeD pAsToR

This podcast episode is an interview with N@KED PASTOR, David Hayward, former pastor turned cartoonist who's been "drawing graffiti on the walls of religion since 2005." Because of Tabitha's own journey of becoming free from spiritual abuse in the Christian church, she and David had so much to talk about. Some of the topics include "miracles", escaping cult-like religious backgrounds, astrology and the idea of "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." Tabitha's most heartwarming moment was when David said she reminded him of Sophia from his book The Liberation of Sophia, and Tabitha reads an excerpt in the introduction to give everyone a taste.

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Transcript

David Hayward: 1:01

David. Hi, how are you? Good. Are you

Tabitha: 1:08

good? As I'm sitting here with my headphones on, I can hear my earrings.

David Hayward: 1:15

I take them off audio earrings.

Tabitha: 1:19

Yeah. I mean, I don't mind, but I feel like later it will be annoying when I try to edit it. Yeah.

David Hayward: 1:25

How are you today? I'm doing well. How are you?

Tabitha: 1:28

I'm doing well. I'm so excited to talk about your story. And I did some Instagram research, right? I looked through your stories. I kind of read your story. I would love to get a bit of your background and have the listeners understand why you call yourself the naked pastor and kind of how that journey has gone and how you

David Hayward: 1:53

got here. Yeah. Sure. Well, thanks again for having me on the show and thanks. All your, your fans and all your listeners out there. Hi, it's good to be here. Share my story with you. So yeah, I basically grew up in a very religious Christian home and everything, and I grew up in the church, very conservative even, even kind of costal you know, I, the whole born again thing and went to Bible college. I'm in Canada, I'm a Canadian. I went to college in the U S famous because of the Simpsons, but Springfield, Missouri, and went to a Bible college there. And that's where I met my wife, Lisa. And I went from there to seminary in Boston. I, then I went to the university of Toronto to start my PhD, but we got pregnant instead. And ended up, I ended up in the ministry kind of by accident, but it was a quick way for me to get a steady job income and do something I was kind of, you know, interested in. So I I was in the ministry for, for many years about th I rounded off to about 30 years. And then in 2010, I just felt like I, I couldn't I couldn't grow anymore. I just felt like I was limited kind of closed in and, and the only way I could figure out how to. Feel free again, was to walk away from the ministry. So I walked away from the ministry and basically decided to see if I could make naked pastor, which I'd been, I'd been on a blogger naked pastor since about 2005 and see if I could make a go of it full time with my art and books and courses and you know, other stuff. And I did here. I am 11 years later, still doing naked pastor and with all, all my stuff. So naked pastor, basically. I started the blog when I was a pastor of a local church and there was a lot of pastor bloggers out there and you know, theologian, bloggers and everything, but I wanted. I want it to be unique. And I wanted people to get a glimpse of what it was really like to be a pastor. I'm brutally honest about what really goes on behind the curtain. And so I, I use the name naked pastor, meaning vulnerable, raw, real, no, no makeup, no adornments, nothing. I'm just gonna let people see the real life of what it was like to be in the ministry, not with just the church growth and the successes and the thrills and the joy, but the struggles and the conflict and the financial difficulties and all that. And including, including doubt and questions and so on. So that's how Nikki passer got started. And I didn't really expect it to grow like it has, but it has. So it's, it's great.

Tabitha: 4:52

That's amazing. I know my friend Jordanna, who's also been on the podcast. She recommended I follow you at one point. And I just, I that's how we got connected, I think. Yeah. Your story has so many touch points that I can relate to. I have family down in Springfield kind of distant family. My, my dad went to seminary down in that area. Ended up having a church in Texas and he was a minister. And then I would be K and I'm a contact with my parents anymore. So, you know, it's, it's kind of like, And that happened about 10, 11 years ago. When I started to make that, that move away from my family. Very, very like spiritually abusive and emotionally abusive and things like that. And that's when I was about 30 years old, I had to kind of, I was, I was breaking away. I was questioning a lot of things myself. When I stepped away from family is also when I stepped away from the church in my heart, I was still kind of going for a few years in my marriage and things like that. But I started questioning a lot of things and, you know, I wouldn't, I don't know what to call myself. I'm not really sure. Me neither.

David Hayward: 6:04

And you know what, that's, what's the big deal. I do a lot of cartoons about labels outside of the can facing outward is for other people. I don't need the label it's for people to read. Right. And so a lot of the time we're trying to apply a label to ourselves just to make other people on come up, make other people comfortable, make conversation easier and social interaction easier or whatever. But, you know, I don't know what to call myself either. So it, but I don't worry about it. It's not my problem.

Tabitha: 6:41

It isn't, it isn't, that's part of, I feel like any growth and healing process, it doesn't, it's not necessarily specific to religion. And I just find these patterns of, you know, fear-mongering in many areas in life.

David Hayward: 6:57

It's so true. It's so true. Yeah. Religion is just one sphere of, of influence in our lives. Right. And everything overlaps. It's like I just did a cartoon. Was it today? On spiritual abuse in the church and a lot of people commented. Do you know, this happens in. In schools, in jobs, in sports teams in marriages. Yeah. It's this kind of abuse happens across the board church. Unfortunately church and Christians and other people of other religions somehow feel they're immune from basic human problems. And it's just not true. I, I don't, I don't sign up for that fallacy. I think we're, I think we're all human whether we're religious or not, and we're going to struggle with the same issues. So yeah. So you can, I, you're no longer in touch with your parents at all. Like, it's just, that's just so heartbreaking for me as a parent that, you know, I have three adult kids and we, we decided early on to, we're going to put relationship above. Being right. Actually, you said it's more important that we be in relationship with our kids than to be right. And you know, as a result, I think we have a great friendship with our, with our children, but I can't imagine, I feel really sad. You know, that a parent would rather be right than have their daughter in their life. Right?

Tabitha: 8:29

Yeah. It is super sad. It's and I'm smiling when I say it because it's, it's both and it's, it's been a catalyst for me getting more healthy and more myself. And, you know, I came to the conclusion, I can't change my parents. I can't get them to see me. And, you know, I don't, I don't have to, but it is really sad. I mean, it's like the normal things, you know, that come up mother's day father's day, Christmas. You know, any family stuff. But it was, it was, they had to be right. And I think you hit the nail on the head there. It was, it had to be right over being family.

David Hayward: 9:11

Yeah. And the strength that it takes for you to you know, that's a real step of self care to walk away from that kind of toxicity to, to maintain your own mental health and spiritual health and health in every way. It's, it's incredible. I, I, you know, I'm in touch with a lot of people every day who just yesterday I was talking with a young woman who still lives at home and just, it's just horrible. And basically I said, you know what, it's going to be like this until you actually leave home. And you know, which won't be long, but you know,

Tabitha: 9:46

I didn't leave till I was 30. Yeah. And I really did. I live with my parents still is 30 under the whole courtship stuff, the purity culture stuff. I was, you know, I was being kept as this kind of possession that they could give away at some point. And I didn't think they were ever going to get to the point where they wanted to give me away, you know? And then I was like, who are they going to give me away? Anyway. So it was kind of like, you know, I own my life. I'm this is my life to live. I was in deep. Yeah, it was very cult-like just my family itself is very cult-like, you know, my mom is very controlling and narcissistic and my dad. Plays the game.

David Hayward: 10:31

Wow. Good for you.

Tabitha: 10:34

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I, I'm glad you touched on, on that and your children too, because I think it's so important to see the difference at times. You know, I think we get so steeped in that we think our family is everything. And in the statement, family is everything is an interesting one because it could be, and it probably should be on many levels. You know, we should be able to stick together no matter what, but for many people, it just isn't that way. And, and finding the strength and the courage to break free. It takes a lot. Cause it's, there's so many things involved with that, you know, our own survival and. Society and all of that. So, yeah. I'm glad you have a good relationship with your kids and you want to be friends with your kids. That's amazing. No,

David Hayward: 11:20

and I, I know I'm when I'm aware of that, when I'm sharing my story you know, there's a lot of horrible things that have happened in our life and terrible things. But one thing we did well, I think was parent and, you know, fortunately I think all the stars aligned that all of our kids are we're in good relationship with all of our kids. And I'm always aware that that's not true for everyone. And it's kind of like talking about my health, right. When I'm, when I know there's people who struggle with chronic illness and, you know, unnameable pain and things like that. It's difficult to talk about the good things in your life without being aware that there's a lot of people who don't enjoy those basic privileges that I think they, I wish, I think, and I wish they sh they could, you know, so yeah.

Tabitha: 12:08

Yeah, that's so sweet of you to be mindful of that. It's you know, I personally live with chronic pain from, there was a lot of trauma in my past with the emotional abuse and all of that stuff, physical abuse. It it's like my body lives with that. And that's, that's another thing. I think, you know, people who live with chronic pain, I can speak to that and it's okay. It's also okay to say, you know, there's this, it's so interesting. The culture that we live in right now, there are so many people who want to deny reality. And there are so many people who want to stay in those places of this is my pain, kind of their identity. And there's also this middle ground of accepting and really living with your pain and being with it and experiencing life to the fullest, even in pain. And so I think we can come to those places and it's really, it's a long journey, many times, and it's not easy, but yeah. It's so sweet that you're mindful of that because it's, I have felt like I've lived more fully as I've embraced the pain, if that makes sense. Yup. Yup. No,

David Hayward: 13:18

no, no, no, no. It's no, it's, it's, it's I have so many friends with struggle with chronic pain and it's, you know, I like if I put my back out and I'm, I'm, I'm leveled for a week, it's exhausting. It's so exhausting. And, and I, I think of my friends who deal with this every day, every week, every year, like it's, it's, it's crazy. And the last thing they need is this toxic positivity. That's so popular right now that just. You know, it, it just doesn't make, make sense. It's just not real.

Tabitha: 13:55

What advice would you give to people who don't experience that to hold, be able to hold space for people? If they care at all to hold space for people who are experiencing those things or expressing what their life is really like.

David Hayward: 14:07

How do you talk to people who are positive? They're the worst it's like? I I, I believe there's something called the fundamentalist mindset. Yeah. Yeah. It's that can express and manifests itself in any ideology, even positive Videology, even liberal ideology or any kind of ideology where You're just a fundamentalist. And if nobody, if somebody doesn't agree with you or you think they're wrong, then you're going to make them suffer. You know, fundamentalism doesn't just belong to religious wing nuts. Right. It belongs. Anybody can have a fundamentalist mindset. Some of the worst most fundamentalist people I know are atheists who used to be fundamentalist believers, and they just, they just, they've just moved their fundamentalism over into a different sphere. And so their heart, in other words, they're impossible to talk with,

Tabitha: 15:14

I guess, I guess trying to give advice to somebody who is that way. Isn't really, they're not going to care how to hold space for somebody who's in chronic pain.

David Hayward: 15:21

Yeah. Can you empathy, great commodity? And if people learn how to empathize, I mean, you know, I. One of some of the questions I get often are Why do so many LGBTQ plus cartoons. And you know, why are you so supportive of gay people or transgender people or trans people I should say no. Why are you still supportive and blah, blah, blah. And why do you seem to care? And when you're straight? Well, it's because. For one thing, I have family and friends who are gay or trans or whatever, and, and I love them. And I hate seeing people. I love stuff. That's number one, number two, I know what it's like to come out spiritually and suffer the consequences, losing friendships, being rejected. And so on. Now that's on a different level, different scale, all agree because it's not about identity. It's a choice I've made to believe the way I believe or not believe or whatever. And I suffer the consequences, but to suffer those same consequences for something you can't help, that, that it's your identity. That's a whole other level. But if you can at least empathize a little bit and identify with a little bit what it's like to suffer then you know, you'll, you'll provide space for these people who are struggling with chronic illness and

Tabitha: 16:46

pain. I mean suffering is a part of life. So yeah. I mean, it's just, it is a part of life. And I think sometimes I wonder if, you know, I I've noticed it when people are speaking to me, I noticed the cannot hold space for that at all. And I don't need them to be anything for me, you know, it's just, it's like me even expressing what parts of my life or like, or just saying my reality is really hard for people. Sometimes it's like, oh no, don't say that. Don't say it. It's like, it's like a virus they can catch or something like that. And it's like, no, you're not going to catch my chronic illness or, you know it's like holding space means that I have to accept that there's suffering in the world. And I don't want to accept that there's suffering in the world because I can't really accept my own suffering. Right. No, it's really, really interesting. And then we kind of separate from ourselves in that way. It's kind of like, no, I'm not going to accept that part of me that suffers. So we just create this we're kind of splintered and such an interesting, you know, in some ways I have compassion for that. And I don't think it's necessarily chronic for everybody who does that or something that's like, they're just completely toxic, but it's definitely a mindset that seeped in to a lot of society. I feel like

David Hayward: 18:07

I know. I mean, I, you know when I talk about spiritual abuse or people who are suffering or struggling or whatever, and they're like, you know, basically they come back with, well, have you tried, you know, have you tried lavender. Essential oil or, you know, that's a ridiculous example, but it's like, as if you haven't tried everything already and that there's something deeper going on and something wrong with you. Yeah. Yeah. Something's broken and you know, that's absolutely.

Tabitha: 18:44

Yeah. Yeah. I was recently, I don't mean to change the subject. That's kind of some of the subjects you've been writing about the microaggressions recently. I feel like, and it's so interesting because I just remember that being in church, the little it's, the little things like little digs, or maybe even someone's trying to be kind or encouraging or something. At least that's what I tried to chalk it up to a lot of times, you know, when I was single til I was 30 and I, I, you know, I think I commented on one of those posts actually recently, just before we were messaging and something about, you were talking about how people talk to single women. Yes. Yeah. They feels bad for them. Cause there's singles. I remember being in that position or so many people would be like, how are you single? Like, how is that even possible? Kind of like mind blowing. And meanwhile, this is the other flip side of the coin at times too is yeah. Sometimes it's a choice and sometimes it's not a choice. Sometimes it is the culture in the church that makes it impossible to find somebody that makes sense. My parents were very into the courtship thing and very, but they never really followed through on anything either. They weren't really, it was really strange. They wanted to have complete control, but not do anything with it. And so I was completely turned off to dating men in the church or trying to have a relationship. I didn't want my parents. Controlling that. So I had no desire and I kind of cut a lot of myself off, like, you know, romantically and sexually and all that stuff. I cut a lot of those pieces of me off for so long. And I feel like that can happen in the church too. And it's kind of like this both and thing. It's like, yeah, it's a choice that I'm single, but also it's not really a choice that I'm

David Hayward: 20:37

single. I don't know if that makes sense, but

Tabitha: 20:43

I'm just so curious about like, people that come out of that or people that are in it, if they realize what you know, what's happening with them, right?

David Hayward: 20:52

Yeah. Yeah. So it's like a lot of people who leave these kind of religious cultures with, with me, it took a long time of very gentle, deep programming, basically. And therapy and coaching and talking with people that I trusted Lisa and I having conversations just de-programming ourselves and coming back to well, not back cause we were never there, but coming to a more healthy position in life, you know? So somebody like you , Tabitha, who comes out of like a cult, like culture it, it there's been a lot of damage. A lot of scarring, a lot of pain and a lot of Retardation of you know, of your growth, you know what I mean, how your growth has been retarded and that's I don't, I don't even like using that word, not a bad

Tabitha: 21:49

word, but it's something else

David Hayward: 21:53

right. It's been stunted it so that you know, I know, I, I know like that I just didn't learn a lot about life and I had to, I had to learn about it when I, when I started, you know when I left the ministry, for example it took me a long time, a few years actually to I needed, I needed some guidance to figure out how to, how to live, you know, in the real world. Yeah.

Tabitha: 22:22

No stealing started coming to the surface as you let them, what was, what was happening for you,

David Hayward: 22:28

do you think? Well, for me it was, it was I actually feel like I was okay in the real world. One day, a year after I left the ministry and I thought I was doing okay. Elisa looked at me and says, David, you need help. And I knew she was right. I thought I was okay because I wasn't feeling anything, but I was numb. I was frozen. So I left the ministry, left the church all at once. And also I left my paycheck, left our friendships, left my vocation, my sense of meaning and purpose and destiny, all these things. Lisa and I left behind our kids had left home empty nest. Lisa had gone to university 48 years old. She started studying nursing and got her nursing degree when she was 53. And I'm just like, it was like the perfect storm of, of and we had to file for bankruptcy too, because we were so freaking poor. And it was just it was just a mess, you know? So it wasn't just one thing we had to deal with. It was so many things and on, you know, and underlying it all was this whole. Sense of purpose and meaning like we were a team pastoring church churches together, and now that was gone and now it's like, what really? What, what am I going to do? You know? It was a huge risk for me thinking I was going to make it as an artist, cartoonist writer, et cetera. And it was just, it was just frightening. I know a lot of people who who've left the church and it's, it really is. You feel like a refugee where you're, you're kind of cast out into this wilderness with no resources and, you know, you don't know what to do next. You don't know what you're going to do. You don't know how you're going to find friendships or community or support or, you know, spiritual meaning or anything like that. So it's very disorienting. And so for me, I'd just recommend get help.

Tabitha: 24:29

Yeah. Yes. That's the first thing I did. I left my parents' home and I, I couldn't afford very much. So I went and got the, I looked at the sliding scale at the little counseling center down the road, and I started, I got into therapy right away. I didn't know psychology was evil in my family. And it was very humanistic which they felt was evil. And so I was kind of really going against the grain right away. But

David Hayward: 24:56

you really, that's amazing. They're like good for you. Where you at 30 years old, you left your mom and dad's home. You severed, you, you, you drew a boundary, you left their religion, you left them. Yeah. You went into therapy like holy smokes.

Tabitha: 25:23

Some of it was dumb luck. I say, I fell into all of it. Ass backwards, you know, just the getting out piece. I had no idea what it was gonna look like. I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing. It was, I had met a man. I was dating and they were making it hell on earth for me just to try and date this person. And it was, it wasn't even that they had courtship rules. They just kind of like wanted to change the rules every two minutes to suit whatever. They just didn't want me having anything of my own. It was very strange. And I just, I couldn't live that way. I was like, this makes no sense. This is a normal thing that's supposed to happen in life. Like you're supposed to, you know, find a partner and, or move on with your life. Like whatever it is for you. And this shouldn't be this hard. And it was just, I was just kind of clawing in the darkness. I felt like at the time, but I knew I couldn't stay in that home.

David Hayward: 26:21

Yeah.

Tabitha: 26:22

Yeah. I knew.

David Hayward: 26:26

Yeah. Yeah. Good for you.

Tabitha: 26:30

Yeah. It was the best thing I feel like in, in my therapist, you know, I had seen him off and on for about hi just seven years I think. And. It was one of those things. Like I ended up in a new office and he was there too. It was kind of like by chance kind of thing. And I just felt like, well, maybe this is meant to be, and I had a lot of cognitive dissonance coming out of that. Like I didn't, I think for three years he tried to convince me that I was being emotionally abused by my parents because I was just like, no, my it's just a really difficult relationship. Like how can I fix this relationship? Kind of a thing. That's why I was going to therapy, like trying to figure out what was wrong with me. And he kept saying, there's nothing wrong with you. You're being emotionally manipulated and abused. And I was like, no, that's not it. But it finally clicked. It took a while a while those things, they, they happen over time and pieces. I feel like it's you never know. I know. It's

David Hayward: 27:30

like, I just did a post about that too. About not even realizing you're being abused. Right. Where you're you at specific dissociation where you're dissociated from the situation like this shouldn't be happening here. It just doesn't register or dissociation from the abuser where, you know, parents or pastors or whatever bosses or whatever should be taken care of you. And like, they shouldn't be hurting. You like dissociation from yourself where you've been abused for so long. You no longer, it's been normalized. You no longer recognize that this is wrong and that it's hurting you. So it's really profound that you stuck to therapy. And eventually, you know, some therapist keeps saying, no you're being emotionally abused. And finally the light comes on, you know? Oh my God, you're right. You know, it's just, yeah. Yeah,

Tabitha: 28:33

it is pretty amazing. It's amazing thinking too, you know, I, I try not to delve too much into this, but I like to mention it. My sister is 38 years old and she still lives at home with them and she, and I don't have contact because it's, she's very much still in, in the cult of my family. And I think about that, like that could have very easily have been me. And that's how strong it is, you know, she's 38 single, still living at home, like a teenager. From what I know, like we don't really have, we don't have any contact, but what I have seen and what I understand, it's still very much the same for her as it was when I was living there. And so. Yeah, it's super sad and it's super effed up. Yeah.

David Hayward: 29:21

You got out, you got out, you know, I got my

Tabitha: 29:28

survivor's guilt over that for you, for getting out

David Hayward: 29:35

the Viber skills. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

Tabitha: 29:38

do you have survivor's guilt over that? Yeah. And you probably have a lot of survival skills too.

David Hayward: 29:44

To be honest, I don't, I don't think so. Like I see, I see what I did as it was a step for my personal growth. It wasn't just for survival. I wasn't just escaping a bad situation for me. I felt like the only way I can keep growing, because my issue was in 2009, I had this profound. Kind of a epiphany where I, I finally saw that we're all one and connected on a deep and fundamental level that there's this oneness unity and that our words and language and all that we use to try to describe our perception of reality are just that words. There's only one reality, but there's a million interpretations of it, but there's one reality. And so we're all one, we all have our different words, but it's all one reality, one thing, and we're all doing our best to understand and explain it. And I had this profound and suddenly I had this peace of mind. It was amazing. This peace of mind that I've been striving for for decades, theologically and couldn't, I couldn't unify everything. And all of a sudden in that, epiphany it kind of like. Just all came together and I had this immediate peace of mind came over me and it's never laughed. And I just started describing this experience and trying to explain it. And that's when I started getting in trouble. And eventually it got to the point where my denomination was wanting to edit my posts and denomination you were in. I was in the vineyard, that's where I ended up. Okay. And and where other pastors were writing the denomination and saying, you know, you've, you've got a heretic in one of your pulpits and blah, blah, blah, and so on. And and I just knew my time was up and sure enough, within a year of that epiphany I was gone. And so for me it wasn't like just surviving for me. It was. Me progressing and growing it wasn't just the escape. So I left the church and I thought it was good hands at the time. And it was, it just felt right that the church could keep going as it wanted to go. And I could keep going as I wanted to go as it was an amicable divorce at the time. And so no, I don't think, you know, I, it, it happened fast. I sometimes wonder if I, you know, within a couple of weeks I was gone and I'd been a pastor there for almost 15 years basically, and I was done and I left within like a couple of weeks or something. So I have a little bit of guilt about how quickly and quickly I left. It was kind of like sudden shock and

Tabitha: 32:37

interesting. Yeah, I did that with my family and my marriage is kind of similar. I did, I left the marriage too. I realized I got into that marriage in a very traumatized state and, and not making clear decisions and repeating patterns from my family that I didn't know were patterns until I started noticing the patterns and those fun things. But yeah, it happened pretty quickly.

David Hayward: 33:08

So you're, you're very strong person then, like you, you you don't fuck around. I mean, you, you you know, you left home, you left the religion, you left your husband, your ex like, wow.

Tabitha: 33:23

I'm long suffering. I think in some regards, I mean, I was 30 when I left. So I, in some ways I feel like, well, why did it take you so long to figure it out? But it's kind of like once I know there's something really wrong, then I just, I don't fuck around. That's

David Hayward: 33:39

right. That was the same with me. I gave it a year where I was sharing and I was naive. I was sharing my, you know, my, my F I have this peace of mind and I know you want it. And so here's how it all happened and describing it and explaining it and writing about it and drawing pictures and, and and, you know, I started getting shit over it and blah, blah, blah, and going on. And, and after a year, it was like, I had this meeting with some people, Lisa was working as a nursing student and Like this meeting was horrible. And it's like, I knew I can't work in this context. I can't, I can't stay. So I left the meeting. I said, I texted Lisa. I said, I'm done. And she goes, she answered me too. And that's like the next meeting. I announced my resignation. Yeah. It was like, like that.

Tabitha: 34:38

Yeah. Were you two going through a similar journey separately, but together or,

David Hayward: 34:46

but together, but there were scary moments because we always, like we met in Bible college because 18 I was cranky and we got married. She was 19. In the church as pastors and pastor's wife as a team we were constantly working together as a team in the church. And then 30 years later, we, it was really, really scary at times because we thought what. What is that? And plus our beliefs were changing. So it was like, what, what's the glue that holds us together? Like we, it ma we thought maybe it was the church. Our beliefs are similar beliefs, blah, blah, blah. And then we came to the conclusion after a while it took a while including therapy and everything to realize that it was love and mutual respect that held us together. It wasn't compatible beliefs. And so she has a very different flavor of spirituality than I do but we respect and love each other and our differences. And but it took us a while to get through that. I mean, when I left the ministry, it was really kind of scary because I was used to. Kind of living in a fishbowl and everybody observing me and watching me and now nobody cared about what I did. I remember thinking one day I was driving to work and I was driving into town and I was like, I don't know if I want to be married. I don't know. Like I had this weird sense that nobody's watching. Nobody cares. There's no, there's no God above my head with an ax ready to take my head off or making a bad choice. There's no glue, there's no blue. It's like, I want to be free. I'm free of the church. Now I'm free of the ministry. I want to be free of everything. Like just this weird, unhealthy moment I was going through very frightening, but we worked it through and our marriage is better than it's ever been, but it took some time. In fact, I wrote a book called It just came out last year, Till Doubt Do Us

Part: 36:57

when changing beliefs change your marriage, because I see a lot of people when they start deconstructing their beliefs or whatever, their beliefs in a marriage a lot of the marriages blow up, you know, it's really difficult to hang in together when we go through such major changes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, sometimes it's valid and totally okay. Other times I think you can, if, if you both participate that you can work things through and come through the other side, but yeah,

Tabitha: 37:31

that's so interesting. Yeah, I guess, I mean, you're raised, or I don't know how you were raised exactly. But I was raised with like, you know, not to be unequally, yoked and all of those things. It's been such an interesting journey in that regard too. I still have stuff left over because it's not all it doesn't go away overnight. It's just, it's like, these things kind of live with you.

David Hayward: 37:59

Yeah. I call them, I call it residue or echoes where, you know, you're no longer in the thing, but you're still hearing it. And so I call it echoes where like, for example I hear from a lot of people who say I'm still afraid of hell, even though, you know, I don't believe in it. That's a real mindfuck my language. I don't know if you'd beep out swearing, but I leave it in. Okay. It's a mind. Fuck. When you don't believe in something, but you're still afraid of it. Totally. That's like people don't, they're like, I don't believe in hell. Like, even if I believe in the God, what kind of God would throw people in hell for not having a correct theology, but they still are terrified of going. And I do remember, you know, lying in my bed, cold sweats thinking, oh my God, what have I done? I might wrong. What if I'm wrong? And you know so it's, it's the same with a lot of our beliefs you know, like the purity culture stuff and unequally yoked, and, you know God hates divorce and you know, all this stuff re it's still in there, but it's like, it's not like God hates divorce. It's more like, God hates divorce, divorce. It's like, it's just still echoes back there. But that's all it is. It's just an echo. It's not the real thing. And eventually that goes away.

Tabitha: 39:24

Yeah. I hope. I mean, I remember that feeling vividly, especially after my divorce, because I wasn't distracted by the drama of the marriage anymore. And all of a sudden it was like, I'm dangling over the pit of hell by a thread

David Hayward: 39:41

sinners in the hands of an angry God, you know, totally that fear mongering which is a phrase you used earlier fear-mongering is such a powerful tool to keep us under control and, you know, It's very powerful.

Tabitha: 40:02

Yeah. It really, really is. And I, you know, I'm, I still, I don't want to say it's a struggle for me. It's one of those things I hold here, I hold it kind of loosely. I hold, I try to hold all the things, you know, like, yes, I was taught this. I don't know for sure. I don't know anything for sure, really, but I'm okay in the not knowing right now. I'm okay. Kind of a thing like I live with now and also in the nut, not knowing and I just have to be okay with that.

David Hayward: 40:32

Well, I, yeah, me too. Like I you know, when nothing's wasted, that's the way I look at it. Nothing's wasted. I wouldn't, you wouldn't be who you are now, unless you were who you were, then you wouldn't be where you are, unless you were. Where you were, it's the same with me. I wouldn't be who I am now. I like who I am now. I like my life right now. I wouldn't be where I am right now, unless I was where I was back then or who I was back then. So you know, I used to think of growth as linear, but that means you leave stuff behind its history. Or then I used to think it was stages, but that means you elevate yourself and you look down on where you were before. No, I think of growth as spatial where you grow out, out, out, out, out, and, and it continues to include that. Which one before it just got bigger and bigger and bigger. So I don't, I don't have any, I don't reject any theologies or any of my experiences or try to rip out chapters from my story or anything. It's all included. It all gets. Consumed or subsumed into the whole. And that, to me, just relieves a whole lot of anxiety about picking and choosing what you should and shouldn't believe. And just like. We're like rivers with many streams and many currents. And, you know, I have, I think, I think the trick is to not feel anxious about that and just float along and recognize, oh, that fear of hell just flew through my brain right now that no big deal. There it goes,

Tabitha: 42:09

oh, that

David Hayward: 42:11

I might be an atheist that went through my mind a moment ago. No big deal. And that thought where, you know, I remember speaking in tongues or whatever and how close I felt to God just went through my mind. No big deal. It's all there. It's just a part of the story.

Tabitha: 42:26

That's part of it too. It's like, I remember the prayers I've journals filled with prayers and I'm like, I can't leave that behind. That was all, that's all been part of my experience and it all felt really real to me.

David Hayward: 42:41

It was real. Yeah. Yeah. I was just reading a Buddhist text where where the mind, when it holds onto something, it makes it real right. That the mind makes it real. So, yeah, I totally agree with that. Like I, when I look back on my spiritual experiences and some of them are amazing, quite profound I don't know what, I don't know what to do with it. I don't wish to convince anybody it was true or not. And I don't get all upset when people make fun of people worshiping or people claiming they saw an angel or people claiming this. I don't get all upset over that. I don't care. That's just whatever. But for me, it was like what an interesting part of my life, like. But I, I experienced all that, you know, to me it's profoundly interesting. And I'm not going to judge that guy. That's just who I was.

Tabitha: 43:40

Yeah. I get that. And on so many levels, I can understand that. Can I, may I ask what day and month your birthday is?

David Hayward: 43:51

Why are you into taro?

Tabitha: 43:54

Well into astrology, but like not enough to be like intensely. I just, yeah, I don't know. It's it's interesting. What does October seven? That's Libra. Yeah, you have this? I was going to say you feel like an air sign to me or a fire sign.

David Hayward: 44:11

Is that, is that air or fire?

Tabitha: 44:13

I don't know. Libras air. Yeah, so you definitely have this like very airy quality to this. You know, I call it fanning the flame kind of thing, which is really nice. It's like you go with the flow and

David Hayward: 44:29

interesting because I'm a very intense person, like when I, do you

Tabitha: 44:34

have some other things in your chart going on?

David Hayward: 44:37

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm very, I'm very complex, but

Tabitha: 44:40

that's and the beautiful thing about it.

David Hayward: 44:44

How about you? Are you an air or a fire or a water?

Tabitha: 44:47

Sagittarius rising and moon and no, no, no. I'm a Sagittarius sun moon, and yeah. Gemini rising or something like that. Anyway, I'm very Sagittarius,

David Hayward: 45:05

whatever that means. Yeah. It's interesting. All that stuff people say, how do you feel about taro? And I was just talking with somebody the other day. I got a tarot reading and it was so right on it scared me like Like, I'm really worried, like, cause I was told that this is all satanic and all this stuff and I'm like, you know what? These are all just tools for personal growth, everything taro, astrology. Even like Quija boards prayer, meditation, writing in your journal, a conscious flow, all this stuff. It's just, they're just tools for personal growth. Like I don't get all upset over that.

Tabitha: 45:44

I mean, I used astrology after coming out of the church because, and leaving my family because I felt like I was so wrong. Everything about me was so wrong and messed up and fucked up and not okay. And just reading my chart and understanding like these were parts of that of me that I was actually born with. Like if I was born with it, is it wrong? You know, the kind of the Outlander stuff, Lino, like I'm, I'm, I'm an outlier kind of person. And I feel like that's true of me. I'm also really loyal. Like these things. I'm like, I wonder why it took me so long to leave, but I'm also a really loyal person, but also once the Sagittarius is done with you, they are done with you. There is no, like there's no going back and that's true of me. I have no

David Hayward: 46:38

interest. Yeah. Yeah. I remember the first kind of I did a personality test, the Myers-Briggs going into the ministry, they required us to take this personality test and I took the test and it was like, I was an INFP and I read the description and I was like, oh my God. It's like, we're like two or 1% of the population or something. But I thought I was a weirdo in reading about myself. It was so life giving and affirming and I'll never forget that. And that's the way I feel about all these tools because they help us with self-awareness. I don't believe in, I don't know how your fans are going to feel or anything, but I don't believe in magic. And so I don't

Tabitha: 47:33

care. I don't really, I don't

David Hayward: 47:36

believe in magic either, but I do, I do believe in the, the power that personal transformation is. It's incredible. Yeah.

Tabitha: 47:47

Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it's all okay. Like I really do. I don't, I don't know. And I know you do too, just cause you don't believe in it doesn't mean it's also not okay.

David Hayward: 48:01

Believe in it it's that like, I don't like a Ouija board. I don't think spirit moving the pieces.

Tabitha: 48:09

What do you think about supernatural occurrences? What's your take on that? I'm just very curious. I don't have a standpoint.

David Hayward: 48:17

I don't believe in magic or, or as, as as a position, the supernatural or miracles. Because it's not that weird things don't happen. I just think that we don't understand it. So anything that's beyond our comprehension is going to be a miracle and I've seen tons of those tons. I have never seen a miracle though. Like for example, I grew up in a culture that believed in. Yeah, I know. And I never saw any, I never saw I one, I never saw one. I've been to all kinds of healing services. I've been in a room with the most famous healers in the world, including Benny Hinn.

Tabitha: 48:59

Did you meet Benny Hinn?

David Hayward: 49:01

I've been there. Never saw one freaking miracle ever in my whole life. All my head feels better. All my shoulder doesn't feel as sore. Yeah. But somebody growing the leg or the blind seeing, or

Tabitha: 49:14

like a real miracle,

David Hayward: 49:16

you know, sorry, you can come at me. You can come at me and say, but I haven't seen him well. Okay, good for you. I personally haven't so for me I guess you might call me a materialist where but there have been some really weird things happen to me, also in the vineyard, for example, that that last church I was in, very much believed in prophecy. And I've been around some people who were considered profits, who holy shit, some weird shit happened, but I don't know how to explain that, but I don't think it's, I don't think God's whispering in their ear and giving him secrets. I'm sorry.

Tabitha: 49:58

Interesting. Cause I, my family was very we were of the reformed, like Baptist persuasion. How that happens. So like it's reformed but Baptist. So it was like the reformation, but with Believer's baptism, like my family didn't believe in infant baptism was they didn't

David Hayward: 50:20

well, they'd be like Calvinist theology.

Tabitha: 50:22

Yeah, very much so. And then also like, so we would watch like, you know, TCT and all the, for fun for entertainment, basically in my family, it was total Christian television and the local station, but my parents would get invited to go on like local Christian television shows and stuff like that. And it was such an interesting mix of people with different beliefs. And I remember them getting into fights with people and it was just when I was, I, you know, I was exposed to. Other denominations, for sure. Like, yeah, definitely. And I, I know, I know how it can be. We're very Puritan in our thinking and yeah. Which is also, I don't know. I just so oppressive or something. Oh

David Hayward: 51:15

yeah, no for sure. Yeah. Yeah, puritanical. That's why they call it puritanical.

Tabitha: 51:25

Totally. I feel like I was, I had a point earlier and now I'm trying to catch it and I can't. So it's going to let it go. But it's so interesting to think about all the, the, the belief systems that we have and why we come up with them and, and naming the strange things that we see happen. It's like, yeah. I don't know what to think about it either. Like I just went on a ghost and gangsters tour in Chicago, walking tour a few weeks ago and hearing the ghost stories right. Of Chicago. I don't know. I don't know what to do. I don't

David Hayward: 51:58

know. I know people came to see ghosts and I know these people they're smart. You know, they're intelligent people. They're not weird. And they, with, with, with all awe in their eye, they explain these ghost encounters that they had. I don't know what to do with that.

Tabitha: 52:20

My parents would say it was demons trying to,

David Hayward: 52:24

oh man. I grew up in demon culture, big time, exorcisms, Satan is alive and well on planet earth kind of stuff like, oh, Pell, Lindsey, all that stuff. I was there. I remember my

Tabitha: 52:36

mom. I remember my mom trying to cast out demons. It was such a weird,

David Hayward: 52:44

that's weird. Yeah. Been

Tabitha: 52:46

there. It's kind of scary. But my goodness, I feel like we could talk about this stuff forever. This is something I don't touch on a whole lot on my account. It's, you know, the spiritual abuse thing is something I've touched on occasionally and I feel very strongly about it. I feel like it's really wrong, but I'm really excited that we're having this conversation because it's not something I get to delve into completely. I shouldn't say get to, I could do it. It just hasn't been my like platform necessarily, but I feel like it all kind of ties together. The self-love aspect, the growth aspect, all of that ties in,

David Hayward: 53:19

you know, you know, what's really cool about, I just passed 80,000 followers in Instagram today and I'm so happy and what's really, really cool about the naked pastor community is its diversity. There's just so many different people on there. There's there's believers going to church pastors. Muslims Buddhists atheists, you name it every month. I'll get on there and we all share our stories and we all belong. And if anybody gets bullying or, or is mean or homophobic or whatever, I delete their comment, keep it up. I, I blocked them just that simple. It's wonderful to see the diversity. And I think that's, what's really cool. Cool. Is I think it's when churches or families or whatever, try to maintain A monolithic idea of what it means to be Christian or, or spiritual, or, you know, homogenous community. I think that's when abuse can begin, but when you provide a free, safe space for people of all kinds of a variety of kinds and you know, we can, we actually are seeing at work where people from all kinds of belief or non-belief can hang out together and have a good time. So I think that's, that's, that's really, really cool when abuse occurs, something comes on and say, well, I, I love you everybody, but I hate to be the one to say, you know, if you're gay, you're going to hell, sorry. You know, I just delete that stuff. Yeah.

Tabitha: 55:05

You, you draw a lot of cartoons of Jesus. So what's your, what's your relationship like? With Jesus or to Jesus.

David Hayward: 55:16

Well I, I use that to communicate to people who either believe in Jesus and use him for comfort or believe in Jesus and use him as a weapon. And so, you know, I've gone through a huge transformation in my own ideas about Jesus. I would fall into the mystical being. Now I find most affinity with mystics Christian mystics, mystics of other religions quantum physicists, they all start sounding the same at that level. And that's where I, my idea of, of Christ as a universal kind of mystical being, and but I, I draw Jesus a lot. So for example, I draw Jesus with a gay person, loving a gay person, for example, and for a gay person, who's grown up being taught that being gay is a sin and they're going to hell and Jesus doesn't love them because of that. This is going to comfort them and people who believe Jesus does not support LGBTQ people. It's going to piss them off. So that's, that's why I draw the comfort and I guess to build up and to tear down as Jeremiah would say. And so yeah, that's why I do it. Yeah.

Tabitha: 56:46

What's one of the favorite sermons that you've preached in your life.

David Hayward: 56:50

Oh, G favorite sermons. Yeah. It's been so long. You know what I that's one thing I really do miss is speaking to a actual, a room of people. I, I really do miss that. I work from home I'm by myself. I'm pretty much lived the life of a hermit I'm drawing, and I'm painting and I'm writing. And especially during COVID up here in Canada where, you know we're pretty strict about our bubbles and so on, but that's one thing I really do miss. And you know, the saying a picture's worth a thousand words. I find my cartoons convey a lot more than a lot of my sermons ever did in one little picture. And that's why I love doing it so much. It's like I just love the fact that you know, I used to write long posts and people could start reading it and get bored or disagree or whatever. Now they see my cartoon and in less than a second, it's in your brain and it's too late. You can't unsee it. You like

Tabitha: 57:55

poking the bear.

David Hayward: 57:57

Yeah, I do. I got to admit, I do like poking a bear. Yeah. Yeah.

Tabitha: 58:04

Great. I've really enjoyed. Just kind of delving into your account a little bit more just to get to know you a little bit before our chat and yeah, I would highly recommend anyone going and following you and purchasing your artwork. And just kind of really, I feel like I noticed somebody had a tattoo of one of your drawings that was getting a tattoo. I think that would be such a great. I've always thought I'd love to have a tattoo that I cared enough about to get tattooed on my body. And I could see how something like what you're doing and the pictures that you're drawing would be a great way for somebody to have something of meaning like tattooed on their body or just,

David Hayward: 58:46

yeah. Are you, are you aware of my Sophia story? I was looking

Tabitha: 58:50

at some of that and I wanted to get into that. Do you have time to get into that? Okay. I would love if you would cover that. Look, I've

David Hayward: 58:57

got nine, I've got nine books out. They're all on Amazon, but the one I'm proudest of is The Liberation of Sophia and it's a compilation of 59 drawings and each one has a meditation. And when I left the ministry, it was like One Sunday, I was, I was just sitting at the table drawing and when I was done, Lisa looked out and said, what is that? It was so unusual. I was used to drawing like pretty watercolors and this, by the way. Thank you. Yeah, there was a, this one was a picture of a girl holding up a teddy bear to a big grizzly bear towering over her. And I call it fearless. And I thought, I don't know. I just, just came out of me. I just felt like drawing it. And then I drew the next week when Lisa would go to work, I would, she worked Friday nights and Saturday nights. So I would stay up with a bottle of wine, put on some loud music and just start drawing. And I was drawing these pictures of this girl or young woman in various situations in the wild. And after about eight or nine of them I was drawing one where she's standing before the mouth of a cave that's covered in vines and it's called cave. And I realized I was drawing my story. I was drawing the story of my liberation from religious oppression and ministry and the church and Christianity and my escape from it. And I just kept doing, I never planned what I was going to draw. I would just sit down with paper and pen and pencil and just start drawing and whatever happened happened. And a couple of years later, I had 59 drawings of Sophia where she, she actually begins in a kind of a cellar chained with all the. Biblical verses around her that a woman should remain silent and all these things. And then her escape from that, into the wilderness where she learns how to be free. And yeah, you would love that book. You would love it. So a lot of people get the, so one of them is angel where she's hiding her face and she's got these huge angel wings and another one's metamorphosis where she's walking in there. She's surrounded with colorful butterflies because it's about our transformation. And yeah, it's just. Hmm. A lot of women identify with that story of, of leaving their oppression and making you remind me of Sophie actually, as I'm talking about it. Totally. That's you that's totally you totally. Yeah. When Sophia is basically my, my soul, my inner self, my as Carl Jung would say the female aspect of me. That's my story. Sophia is her name and which base Sophie is Greek for wisdom. And that's my wisdom. Figuring out how to, how to live independently and free. So yeah,

Tabitha: 1:02:01

I was going to ask you the meaning behind Sophia and why a woman, as you, as you were saying, it was your story. And obviously she's female. I was thinking too about how, you know, the church has always compared to being are said to be the bride of Christ and you know, the church has always. You know, refer to it as being female. And I don't know, just kinda tied that together.

David Hayward: 1:02:30

So it was really a profound experience for me. And when I was done, the last image is her walking through a door into the light and that was it. Wow. It was over. I stopped drawing Sophia. I did draw a couple of the more they're not in the book, but you know, it's just what a weird story. That is two years I, I drew drew her and it was basically me drawing my way out of oppression into my own freedom. And it was very therapeutic and it worked. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I'm getting chills. You got to get the book. You'll love it because it's your story. And it actually is. Okay. Well story. I hear from people I heard from one young woman a couple of years ago, she wrote me and said I want to thank you for The Liberation of Sophia. I bought the book. I quit college. I left home, I got a tent and a sleeping bag and some food and went out into the woods and just read Sophia and wrote in my journal for a couple of months and came back a different person. Like it was just so like, she went out into the wilderness and changed herself and then came out and started living her own life independently and free. Just profound.

Tabitha: 1:04:00

Yeah, it is so profound. It is, it really is. When we think about the bondage that we lived in, I mean, the Bible talks so much about bondage, but it's, it's like the church has so much bondage in it.

David Hayward: 1:04:14

I know.

Tabitha: 1:04:17

And it's not an thing to break away

David Hayward: 1:04:20

from, but you did it, you did it. I mean, this is why I'm kind of you know, I'm amazed by, by you and yeah, incredible credible story. But that's what I did that too. I took steps to live free and that's, that's the big thing I learned. The big thing I learned was I thought I was trapped when in fact I was only afraid of what the consequences would be if I lived free, I wasn't really trapped. It was my fear that trapped me, kept me back. Once I realized that I was like, I can just walk. I can just go. And I did. And so did you? I did.

Tabitha: 1:05:06

And I bet somebody will look at me and go, that's something that was so profound to me too, is realizing I was in this mental prison and I was not chained up in the basement or I felt it was, it felt in it's like that experiment. And I'm forgetting the name of it right now. But that science experiment where the dog, yes, yeah. The dogs just stay. And I'm like, that's just so true. Like what can happen in your mind? And the moment you realize it's your mind, that's keeping you.

David Hayward: 1:05:44

Yeah,

Tabitha: 1:05:45

it's not right. What's happened. It's not okay. It's not okay that this stuff was put on you or you were in that situation, but you can get out and, and you can be okay.

David Hayward: 1:05:58

No, I, I, I learned this, I left the ministry one other time. That was in 95. I was in the Presbyterian church. I was bored to death. I hated it. And I went to bed one night. Just wanting to give up. I, I, I felt hopeless. I didn't want to kill myself, but it was like, I felt I'm stuck. I've got a wife and three little kids. We're living in the church manse. The house that the church owns. We have no money. I felt completely trapped, depressed, dark. I didn't know what I was going to do. I hated my life. I went to sleep and I had a dream. And in the dream, all I heard was the voice it's time. And I woke up laughing because I woke up laughing my guts out. And Lisa started laughing and the kids came running in and jumped on the bed and they started laughing. What are we laughing at?, I'm like, I'm not trapped! I can just quit. At Lisa's like, okay. So I just quit. And we packed. We sold everything, packed up our van or minivan and drove away. And the next couple of years was a great adventure. I mean, we lived out of a tent for a while. We did that, but I look back on that time, it was huge, huge for me that I realized I went to bed completely trapped and I woke up a free man. Nothing had changed except my mind and my perception. And you know, I know, I know a lot of your listeners are probably like, I feel trapped in a really sucky marriage or a bad church or a bad job or whatever. I totally get it. I totally get it. And sometimes it's not safe to leave. I totally get it. But you know, if it's about money or finding another place to live or getting another job or what, that's, what really is holding you back, you're afraid. And those are real fears, legitimate fears too, but I've seen it over and over again where people, when people take a step for their self care amazing things happen.

Tabitha: 1:08:13

Oh, yeah. I'm so glad you said that. I'm so glad. Cause it's so true. I've said it on the podcast. I've had guests on that. Say it too. The minute you take that step, not, not even knowing how you're going to, maybe you have enough for one hotel room for a night or something like that, but that's all, you know, and as soon as you take that step, you're out of a situation that has created so much panic and fear and oppression that all of a sudden you start thinking more creatively or someone comes along and you get brave to ask. I mean, you're brave enough to leave. So you're brave to ask around, to see what's open. And I have seen it time and time again and for myself to taking that first step. And then the next steps come in until you're here today.

David Hayward: 1:09:05

Like that Irish blessing. May the name of the earth rise to meet your feet. Kind of like that's what happens. That's my experience. Yeah, it's I say, I don't believe in magic, but that's kind of magical the way that happens, where when people take steps, courageous steps, of self care. It's amazing what happened in this? Like you say, like when, like I went to bed completely trapped and I woke up a free man and happy laughing, didn't give a shit about money or my career, whatever, for me, what was most important was my happiness and my family's happiness. And we went for it and yes, we struggled for a while. I worked in a donut shop for a while. I did this, I did that, but we had the time of our life and you know, and, and it, it's a part of the Lego blocks that make me who I am today and doing what I'm doing today and the same with you. Right. So,

Tabitha: 1:10:08

yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. It really is amazing. Yeah. And it is, it is a total leap of faith in a way. It's, it's like, I'm just gonna, I'm going to trust. I'm going to trust the universe that it is the ground is gonna rise up to meet me.

David Hayward: 1:10:25

It's the same one. I, when I decided to make naked pastor a thing I didn't know anything about business. In fact, I had a really bad attitude about money, that it was filthy lucre, that it was going to pollute the spiritual that I was compromising marketing and sales was all slimy. And I grew up that way. I was taught that I was raised that way. And, and that, you know, Jesus was poor. I should be too and all this stuff. And I had to educate myself, but it's been a journey and, you know, I'm, I'm making a go of it and I'm having fun and I'm helping people on top of it, you know? So it's it. But it's amazing that when I left the ministry that I knew after a couple of years, holy shit, I need to, I need to figure out stuff like money and marketing and sales and business. And, you know, I need to heal myself about this attitude about money that I have. And so, and it changed my life. It's like, I, like we said, I took that step and the earth rose and it's amazing how that happens. Yeah.

Tabitha: 1:11:36

Yeah. I love that. We got to touch on that because it's so true. It's so true. And you don't know how it's going. I mean, you can't guarantee anything for anybody, but I also it's, I've never, I've never heard a story where someone didn't come through when amazing things didn't happen, you know, as they took those steps. For sure.

David Hayward: 1:12:00

What's cool. Yeah.

Tabitha: 1:12:01

I love that. What would you, I love that we covered. I feel like that's great advice, but what's something you'd like to leave with people who are struggling with maybe leaving the church or I don't know, don't know what to do or feeling like they are on this path too, and don't know where to

David Hayward: 1:12:22

go feeling lost. Yeah. Maybe trapped. Yeah. Well, What I'm, what I'm about is the freedom of the individual. That's what I care most about. You're free to be whoever you want to be independent and self-determining, and autonomous, all those things for me are, are so important. And it's scary though, because we've been taught to be dependent to depend on our parents and then depending on the pastor and to depend on the church and to depend on God. Yes. Even God, we're taught to be totally dependent. And we're, we're not taught how to be free and how to live free and how to be self determining and autonomous and. So, if you're feeling this restlessness and you're feeling trapped and you're feeling lost and you're not feeling fulfilled and all start experimenting, that's what I say. Just start experimenting. You're a free person. Start acting free. Shit will happen. I guarantee it, your husband or your parents, or your pastor or your elders or your boss, somebody is going to speak up and say fall back in line. Miss Mr. Whatever, if we want to live free, it's exciting. There's nothing like it living free, but it doesn't mean it's not scary. So I always refer to the Israelites when they left Egypt you know, the, the, the security of leeks and onions back in Egypt, you know, at least we had a square meal a day. Right. And there was there security in that meager. Dependency, there's some kind of security there, or, you know, take the risk, walk through your desert and find your own promised land flowing with milk and honey, that's the choice. Yeah. I love that. And I prefer my own land flowing with milk and honey, I found it. I'm loving it and I'm helping other people find it and love it. You found yours and you're loving it. I'm presuming you seem to be happy and content. And you know, there it's it's right. It's right there. It's right there. All you have to do is take that first step. I love that. That's my advice,

Tabitha: 1:15:05

David, thank you so much for being here today. I have enjoyed this conversation so much and I know so many of my listeners are going to get something out of this. I get messages every time I post anything about spiritual abuse or my religious family, I get stories and messages from people who are saying, oh my goodness, I can totally relate. And this totally speaks to me. And there are people doing this every day, leaving. And I remember sitting in the pastor's office of the church. My parents made me join in my twenties and being like, can you just take me off the member's roster? Oh no. Oh no. We're going to leave your name on there until we, you know, we understand that you're settled somewhere else. And I just, you know, I walked out of that meeting going, okay, whatever. It doesn't mean anything, but then I thought, no, no. And I wrote an email and I was like, no, just take my name off. Yeah. On my name. I did not want my name in their little book.

David Hayward: 1:16:13

Wow.

Tabitha: 1:16:14

And nothing happened. And just your point about, yeah. Being able to, to S to snap out of it, basically take that step and you're out. It's, it's true. And it's scary, but it's so much better on the other side. So thank you so much for the light that you are.

David Hayward: 1:16:32

Thank you. Thank you so much. And you too. Yeah. Yeah. It's so great to meet you and talk with you and have a new friend. Amazing. Totally. I love it. Yeah.

Tabitha: 1:16:44

All right. Well, we'll be talking.