Secrets of Storytelling: An Expert’s Guide to Building Business Narratives with Michael Levin

Our focus today is on "The Power of Storytelling in Business," as we discuss the secrets behind transforming narratives into business gold. We'll explore the connection between storytelling and business success, learn how to create compelling narratives, and hopefully navigate the art of collaboration in writing. Get ready for an enlightening journey into the world of storytelling and its profound impact on business.

ABOUT THE GUEST

Today, we're joined by Michael Levin, a luminary in the world of writing and storytelling. Michael is a New York Times bestselling author and a most prolific ghostwriter. With over 30 years of experience and having written, edited, published, or consulted on more than a staggering 1,000 books.

My focus of understanding for today is on what “Power” can Storytelling have in the world of Business”.

To learn more about Michael and his work I recommend you go to:

Website: michaellevinwrites.com
Website: AdvisorGhost.com
Website: https://thefablefactory.com/
Website: https://michael-levin-s-best-earning-author-school.teachable.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thebestearningauthor/

ABOUT THE HOST

My name is Dave Barr and am the Founder and Owner of RLB Purchasing Consultancy Limited.

I have been working in Procurement for over 25 years and have had the joy of working in a number of global manufacturing and service industries throughout this time.

I am passionate about self development, business improvement, saving money, buying quality goods and services, developing positive and effective working relationships with suppliers and colleagues, and driving improvement through out the supply chain.

Now I wish to share this knowledge and that of highly skilled and competent people with you, the listener, in order that you may hopefully benefit from this information.

CONTACT DETAILS

@The Real Life Buyer
Email: david@thereallifebuyer.co.uk
Website: https://linktr.ee/thereallifebuyer

For Purchasing Consultancy services:
https://rlbpurchasingconsultancy.co.uk/
Email: contact@rlbpurchasingconsultancy.co.uk

Find and Follow me @reallifebuyer on Facebook, Instagram, X, Threads and TikTok.

Click here for some Guest Courses - https://www.thereallifebuyer.co.uk/guest-courses/

Click here for some Guest Publications - https://www.thereallifebuyer.co.uk/guest-publications

Transcript

Intro  00:00

Welcome to The Real Life Buyer podcast. In this podcast, you will hear interviews with business owners, entrepreneurs, thought leaders, authors and technical specialists in their field. These professionals will hasten your development accelerate your career and broaden your business know how now introducing your host Dave Barr interviewing with a purchasing twist. 

Dave Barr  00:21

Hello and welcome to The Real Life Buyer. Today we're joined by Michael Levin, a luminary in the world of writing and storytelling. Michael is a New York Times best selling author and a most prolific ghostwriter. With over 30 years of experience and having written, edited, published and consulted on more than a staggering 1000 books, by focus of understanding for today is on what power in storytelling have in the world of business, wish to uncover the secrets behind transforming narratives into business gold, and discover the connection between storytelling and business success. So without further ado, I welcome Michael onto this enlightening journey into the world of storytelling and its profound impact on business. Hello, Michael, welcome to the podcast.

Michael Levin  01:13

Hello, David. Thank you for having me. And I cannot wait to tell my wife that I'm a luminary she'll be very excited.

Dave Barr  01:19

I'm sure you're a certainly a bright shining star for many. Well, you're very kind. You started your career as a CBS News researcher, I believe before moving into law, then it appears there is a significant pivot, something happened, something changed in your world where novels and ghost writing became something that you obviously must have taken some pride in. Can you talk us through perhaps the key moments of your journey that led you to become such a prolific and highly successful ghostwriter?

Michael Levin  01:53

Sure, it was a key moment was, the pivot was when my boss sat me down and said, the news is not good. 

Dave Barr  02:01

Oh dear ! 

Michael Levin  02:04

I went to law school because I didn't know how to get started. As a writer, I knew this is all I ever wanted to do. And I sensed that it was my only marketable skill. I went into law because I knew lawyers wrote and judges wrote, so I thought, well, I can make a living writing somehow use the writing skill doing that. And I was in and out of, of two firms each in about five months. The first one was all about fire. And the second one, they sat me down and, and booted me, and they could just tell that I didn't belong in that world. And it's fine. By that time, I had sold a couple of novels to Simon and Schuster, I sold three, right off the bat, which is just incredible good fortune for a writer couldn't come to terms on a fourth I ran out of money, became a starving writer, which is as bad as it sounds. And I found a mentor who was my mentor for 29 years. And he told me to offer private writing classes. And I did, and those turned into people saying consult with me. And that turned into people saying, just write it for me. And that's 30 years and 1000 books ago. So you know, so it's, I really backed into what I do. And at the same time, I enjoy it very, very much. So that's sort of the that's how I pivoted into being the luminary.

Dave Barr  03:16

Well, it's something in your destiny was clearly needed to be fulfilled, law? I don't really equate law with with writing so much. It seems quite a dry subject, in some respects, perhaps one way but you know, you've certainly, well, I made an amazing transformation is anything I could think of, I don't think many barristers or, or lawyers that are think of is such a prolific person in novels and ghost writing. Quite incredible, really?

Michael Levin  03:49

Well I think it's the dream of, of most lawyers to or many lawyers, and I can tell you it is to publish a novel or to do something. I used to teach a course called fiction writing for attorneys. And when you think about it, fiction writing is not such a stretch. The room would be packed with would be novelists. And I went around that for you know, for a long time here in the United States. And the reality is that everybody's fascinated with the law. There are so many television shows in your country in mind, they're focused on what attorneys do. And there is a lot of writing involved. You're writing memos, you're writing briefs, if you're a judge, or you work for a judge, you're writing opinions. So writing skills really are important. It's just a question of what are you writing and I was doing things I was, I was getting really bad people off, because I could tell you stories about these horrible people and I'd win their cases. I remember looking in the mirror and thinking, what am I going to turn into what am I going to be if this is what I do? I don't want to use my super powers for evil anymore. Unfortunately, they said you don't have to, get your plant and get out.

Dave Barr  04:55

To me, I certainly understand where you're coming from. Respect to Law and the shows on TV, my, my wife absolutely adores those sort of programs. And she's very much into serial killers. So that's a little bit worrying. But there we go, I'm still alive.

Michael Levin  05:15

And she's up'd your insurance?

Dave Barr  05:17

Funnily enough, I have got some insurance recently. But there we go, oh, blimey, I could get in trouble about this when Hutch doesn't listen to this podcast. But there we go. Alright, let's get get on with the matter in hand, before I am done in, so to speak. So back to business leaders and storytelling. So how does storytelling connect business leaders with their audience? It's one of the things I was thinking of, can you perhaps share an example of a story that once published had a transformative impact on perhaps yourself as an author or somebody who you were who you are working with? In that author role?

Michael Levin  05:57

Yeah, that's a really great question. And one of the best pieces of advice I got when I was a new writer was that people do not remember even a well written government report. You know, we don't relate to statistics. We don't relate to facts and figures. Instead, we relate to the experiences of other human beings. And that's been true ever since people sat around the fire 1000s of years ago, they would tell stories, and we don't know how to explain the world to ourselves without stories. That's just that's just what we do. As human beings, we create stories that take out the fear, whether it's the fear of the night, or the fear of changing seasons, or the fear of large animals, or whatever, that they were worried about 1000s of years ago, and it's really the same thing today that the business leader who tells the best story wins. And the most the most convincing story, there was a business leader, I didn't do his book, if you want to put that out there named Paul O'Neill here in the United States who took over a company called Alcoa, which was the aluminum Corporation of America. And they were having an absolutely terrible time, their stock price was down sales were down. Morale was everything was in the gutter, everything was terrible. And he announced that his primary focus after he studied the company would be on safety. And everybody thought, you're crazy. This is not it. We don't have a safety problem. We have an earnings problem, we have a stock price problem, we have a delay in the factory problem. He said, No, no, we're going to and he preached wherever he went, he told the same story we're going to focus on, we're going to focus on safety, we're going to make this the safest company to work for. And as a result, morale went up, injuries went down, lost work, time went down, quality went up, and everything else followed. And it's all because he had one story, which is we're going to be the safe, the safest company in our field. And he stuck to it. And he told it over and over again. And we get bored, we get bored saying the same things over and over again. But the reality is that we have to drill the most important messages into the minds of the people we serve. And we lead over and over again, so that they understand this is not simply a flavor of the month. This is not simply something that that I thought of, and that if if you put your head down 30 days from now, I won't even remember I said you have to show that it's important to you. And if you do, then wonderful things happen.

Dave Barr  08:27

It's quite interesting, some of the points you made there, because my next question is about what elements make a business narrative really resonate. Now with that, perhaps the employees of the management, you mentioned a couple of things there one seems to be emotion. That's correct. And then the second you mentioned was repetition. What are what are those Correct? Or are there other ones that are more important? 

Michael Levin  08:51

No, no, those are those those are critical. And we love what we're good at, because it makes us feel safe. And many business leaders came up from the accounting side of their companies, and they're great with numbers, or they came up from the technology side. And they're great with tech. And now they have to lead people and people aren't numbers. And people aren't zeros and ones. And people aren't devices. They're they're human beings. And it's and they have desires and needs. And the great thing is that we all pretty much want the same things in every society, we may call them by different names. But ultimately, we want to be happy, we want to feel secure, we want to be able to make a living, we want to provide a better live better lives for our children, then then then then we have and so the question is, how do you if your business leader, how do you move up beyond the competency that makes you feel safe and instead recognize I am talking to flesh and blood human beings who have desires and needs and they're really the same as mine, give or take, and how am I going to do get across to them that if we all do this together, they're going to get their needs met. I did, I did a book recently for an individual in the tech field who works with hundreds and hundreds of tech companies. And typically, the path of a tech company is that you've got a consultant who either gets fired or goes off on his own, starts a business, and then is able to sell more than he can, or she can service himself or herself. Now this person has to go out and find others, and to do to help do the work. And before long, they're managing people instead of systems instead of technology. And this is where the trouble begins. Because they're just simply not comfortable with people or they're not used to. So the thing to do is to, to remember that everything that that's great in life comes to you through people, you know, if you believe in God, God works through people, if you believe in the universe, the universe has other people around for you to serve, and who will serve and benefit you, but only if you recognize their humanity. And the way we see I'm just thinking about a very successful real estate client of mine, who was taking over his father's company who was probably 29, when I was working with him, brilliant, brilliant guy. And he was just extremely well read in fields outside of business, because he knew that it made him a better, more rounded person. And he used to say that technology represents the potential death of empathy. Because with technology, we're staring at devices, instead of looking into each other's eyes. Like right now I'm creating a false sense of connection with you, because I'm staring into a little green circle and pretending to make eye contact. So even as I speak, this is if I look down, I'm looking at you because because so so the thing is that that empathy began in human society, when people were able to look each other in the eye and realize they had things in common, we can kill the beast together, we can ward off the enemies together. And when we're all looking at our devices, instead of looking to each other's eyes, then then empathy disappears. So so if you're a leader, you've got to demonstrate empathy. And the way you do that is by showing that you care, it's by looking people in their eyes and saying, I care about you, and I can I can make good things happen for you follow my lead, we'll get there together. So how are you connecting with people as opposed to simply creating a budget, or red, yellow, green, or whatever you're doing? Interests?

Dave Barr  12:23

You mentioned a few things there that triggered some thoughts with me. When you're ghost writing, you mentioned the word empathy that made you kind of get into character, how'd you become the person you're writing for? Because that suggests that you need to be in close proximity for a large period of time to really get the character of the individual and how they think how they behave, how they act in certain situations. How do you manage to do that. 

Michael Levin  12:49

Yeah, that's a great question. And, and you, you nailed it in one, which is that it's not about writing for somebody, it's about becoming that person, as if I were acting and playing the role of my client. And so it's about listening to the way they talk and their word choice and their sentence length and their syntax, and the way they express ideas that they tend toward metaphor, or are they really straightforward instead, and just simply getting their voice down part of the battle is just simply recognizing, what do they have to say that no one else is saying in their field. And the one good thing about having gray hair and having done a lot a lot of books is that I've either read the key books in their vertical, whether it's real estate, or finance, or medicine, or body, mind, spirit, or sports or entertainment, or I've written a lot of them. So I know what's being said in their fields. And that way, when they're able to say something, if they're just sort of going through, you know, a number of things, I can say, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop right there. What was that thing that you just said, there? No one else is saying that, and, and then we expand on that. And so part of it is simply getting the voice down. And the other part is recognizing, where's their thought leadership? Really? Where is it? Where is it located? What are the thoughts that they have? What are the ideas that they have, that are not common in the industry or in the world? It's the reason they're so successful, because they think this way, but they don't value those thoughts, because they have those thoughts all day, all day long. And anything we're good at, we assume everybody else is good at it, too. Because otherwise, how can we be good at it? We don't recognize that sometimes we have extremely extraordinary gifts for whatever it is that we do. So it's my job to help them recognize that my client recognize this is an extraordinary gift of yours. And we're going to, we're going to give that to the world through this book. And in so doing, we're going to move the crowd, we're going to establish your thought leadership. We're going to up your sales, we're going to make your sales cycle shorter. We're going to get you on the speaker's platform. We're going to do whatever you want the book to do, but it's because it's going to be your ideas, which maybe nobody else has told you are really really important. Told in your voice and that's the essence of of of what I try to do for my clients.

Dave Barr  15:02

So you're really trying to get significantly into the head, the person become that person, the character can have some kind of context. I'm sure. The more you do this, the better and quicker you become at it, perhaps. But what would you say, in a time perspective, are we talking about here to really get into the character of the person? How much time? Do you need to spend with them, and then do all sorts of different conditions and environments so you can get the flavor of when they're in work mode when their impersonal mode? You know, AGU all that together. And how long does it take?

Michael Levin  15:38

Yeah, it takes much less time than then then. Then one might think I like to say, I only work with people who are too busy to talk to me. If you have a lot of time, you probably don't need a book. And if you don't have a lot of time, how do you get the book done? I learned the hard way that busy people don't have a ton of time that time is actually the most precious resource. It's not money, people might think it's money, it's time, because you can win a million dollars, you can earn a million dollars or pounds or whatever, but you cannot. You cannot win or earn a million extra hours. Every time I work out, I think to myself, am I adding to my longevity? Or am I using up my store of heartbeats, I don't know what it is. So time is what's most valuable for especially for very busy people. I need an hour to 90 minutes to plan the book. That means that we're going to talk and I'll ask you my Oprah question, which is, I'm Oprah, welcome to the show. Tell me why you wrote the book. And first they laugh, and then they kind of scratch their chin. And they say, Oh, that's really interesting. And now they have to look at it with the end in mind, why did I Why am I doing this? Oh, who am I seeking to influence? Where are they now? Where do I want to take them. And then based on what they give me, in that hour, an hour and a half, I can come up with a title subtitle chapter titles a paragraph or two on what's in each chapter. So we have a very clear sense of the flow of information from the author to the reader. And then I need an hour per chapter on the phone an hour gives me the way I interview, I get 12 to 15 pages of book out of a out of a one hour interview. And it's because I don't do broad sweeping interviews where we talk about everything under the sun. Instead, we both have the outline in front of us. And we both know that next week is chapter two, and at 9am. On Tuesday, we're going to be talking about chapter two. And I'll just ask open ended questions. And sometimes my clients say, well don't have to prepare for this. And I tell them, you've been preparing for this your whole career, you know, we could roll you out of bed at two in the morning, give you a cup of coffee, slap you around a little. And you'll and you'll be just we don't do that. But you'll be just as lucid eventually, as you would be a two in the afternoon because you know this stuff inside out and backwards. It's just a question of getting it out of you. And then sometimes people say, Well, you know, this, you know, I'm too young, I have my whole career ahead of me, I say this is not a final report. This is an interim report. This is what you know, now this is where this is where things are right now. And if you don't do the book, then two bad things happen. One is that the people you could have helped, don't get helped, they don't get served. And the other thing is that you don't get the benefit of having your knowledge and ideas out there book is a force multiplier, you can tell your story to three prospects. Or you can have a book out there that is telling a story to 1000 or 10,000 or so. So which is it going to be? Are you going to get your ideas out there and help people? Or are you going to sit on them because you're concerned about what the illusory, non existent critics are gonna say. And once you can start focusing on the people you're going to help, then if you can give me an hour a week for 10 to 12 weeks, we can get a book done. That's 125 250 pages. And that's all people want today, it's just say what you need to say and get off the stage. Don't belabor it, it's no longer biggest book wins, and then you're going to be benefited enormously and so will your readers.

Dave Barr  18:50

I'm hearing quite a bit about structure and process here. So this suggests that people could take these these elements that you've just mentioned, and perhaps apply them to themselves. Many people want to write books, there's certainly people I know at the moment who are in the process of trying to write a book, as there's this lady factory posted today on LinkedIn that she has set herself the target of writing two and a half 1000 words per day, for example. But what's really important is the structure and the plan the organization about how you go about this. So I'm thinking about small to medium sized business owners now I have been a lot of time but these people and they often wish to convey their personal journey, or perhaps their company journey as well in a kind of shorter form or must necessarily a full book, and they want to resonate with perhaps their target clients, their peers or maybe their employees. In that context. What kind of advice would you give them? How would they go about creating their personal journey for their target market?

Michael Levin  19:55

That's a great question.question. And this is the most critical piece of guidance I'm going to offer so please sit up and listen carefully. The biggest mistake that first time business authors make is that they put their own story or their company's story into chapter one, or they make Chapter One A History of the industry or history of the problem they solve. There will never be a reader who gets past that and reads chapter two. Instead, chapter one needs to be about the main problem that you solve for your customers or clients. And you want to write in such a way that you are elevating the level of pain that they experienced, because this problem is unsolved. And you want to, you don't have to show them all the solutions. In chapter one, you just have to demonstrate again, it's about empathy, that you understand them better than anyone else ever could. And that the problem they have is a problem that you have solved over and over again, because you're demonstrating your level of, of intimacy have deep awareness of the pain and the struggles that they go through. That's chapter one. And then you explain in the end of the chapter, this is a book about how we solve those problems for people like you. And now they're saying, Who is this person, now they can't wait to find out who you are. That's why your story and your company's story belong in chapter two, because again, they don't care about who you are, they care about themselves. But now that you've demonstrated this, this deep intimacy with their problems, and you've given them the hope that finally there's someone who can solve those problems, now, they want to know who you are. That's chapter two. And I always say you want to put in just enough about yourself so that they understand who you are, but not so much that they're bored to tears, because you've told them too much. In fact, people use people don't read books, they use them as movies, or I should say they use them as screenplays for movies that play in their heads. And in the movie, they play two roles, they play themselves as student, and they play you the author as the teacher, they know who they are. But in this movie that's playing in their heads, they need to know who you are. So you need to give them just enough information about yourself about your business, so that when they're playing you in that movie in their heads, they know who they're being. And if you give them too little, they're mystified, they're confused, they they're uncomfortable, because they can't play the part. If you give them too much. They're bored. So you want to find that sweet spot where you're just saying enough so that they say, Yes, I know who this person is, I know what this entity is that I'm dealing with, I understand this SMB, or whatever you are financial advisor, business, or whatever. And I'm ready to go tell me how you do it. And then chapter three, outlines your process. And then the rest of the chapters of the book, until the final chapter, outline one or more steps or elements in your process of how you solve the problems that you laid out in chapter one. And then the book concludes with a respectful call to action, because people want to know, how can I get in touch with you? Can we work together? You're an author, you're so famous, and you have to assure them? No, no, we really can work together. And I've got a sort of a little approach or a formula for the call to action. But that's how I was that's how I structure the majority of my books for my business clients. Right.

Dave Barr  23:07

That's, that's really fascinating. And I think to transcribe that down for people, I think the most important, I think people need to go back through this a few times to structure that, that out. Now, you've interviewed obviously, a huge amount of people. Can you give us share some perhaps, some stories of the most challenging time that you've had to deal with a person? What are those challenges? How you managed to overcome those challenges with that individual so you can help to write the best book possible?

Michael Levin  23:35

Sure. That's a great question. No one's ever asked me that question before. The biggest challenges are people who are very technology oriented? And who answer questions, yes, or no? Even open ended questions where I ask a question, then I sit back, I think, Okay, I've got about nine minutes until I have to ask another question. No, I don't do that. What? What? Well, we don't do that. Oh, okay. Well, what about this? And and you just try to? And then then Okay, that's great. That was a good answer. Can you give me an example of a company you served where you were you implemented that? No. That's, that's really, really hard. I like to say I keep a golden shovel by my desk, so that I can, you know, and get whatever. But if you don't give me anything, we have a problem. And so that's on the front end. And then the back end is when the manuscript is complete. I like to say I hate to say, but it's true. I have on my laptop, what I call a multimillion dollar hard drive, which is dozens of books that have been fully paid for and fully written and proof read and ready to publish. And the client won't say, Yes, let's go publish the book. Oh, my gosh, it's so frustrating because there's so many people that could help. And then on a personal level, I'm so proud of what we've accomplished and I can't get them on the phone. They're either on to the next shiny object, or they are thinking about the illusory imaginery nonexistant critics who will, in their mind savage the book and humiliate them, and, and everybody will know, and I tell them there are no nobody has the time to criticize other people's books, they're not going to bother, nobody's got the the interest to do that instead you have to think about the people you're going to serve. And the people who, you know, they're, well, they're already books on, you know, tool and die or, you know, bond law or whatever the subject is, is that there's nobody who wrote it, from your perspective, with your experience with your knowledge base, that's your tribe, and Seth Godin is great term. Those are the people that only you can help. So all the people that only you can help are going through life without the problem being solved for them. Because you wouldn't let the book GET OFF MY multimillion dollar hard drive, stop it, say Just say yes, just say put it out there. And and I've never, I've never, ever had a client come back to me and say, I put the book out there, and you're not going to believe the criticism I received. Instead, it just say, you know, it's wonderful sales are up, and I got my ideas out there. And I'm speaking here, and I was on Tony Robbins platform. And you know, and all these amazing magic happened, and this company called and said, We're gonna pay you $6,000 a speaking engagement all over the country, but only if you put the book out. So those are the two things if people who don't give me what I need to write it, and then people who want push the button and actually get it out there when it's done. Yeah, I guess

Dave Barr  26:21

Yeah, I guess it's quite a scary thought. There's always the fear of failure, which it sounds like even the most intelligent and successful people still have that fear. It's this is something new for them is you said they hadn't written before. And so you know, putting yourself out there, as we all know, can be incredibly daunting for people. And once it's in print, it's out there, you know, we've heard of various publications recently, for example, to deal with the royal family over here. And these things come out in print and come out on the TV. And it's, it can be scary stuff for the individuals concerned. Some of the rhetoric that happens, there are people who like to criticize, that's just the way it is, I guess. But I can kind of empathize with their fear of pressing the button. So what I'm trying to say, did you ever have that fear? I put in pressing your own button for a book?

Michael Levin  27:14

Nope. Okay. Now, I'm not wired that way. But on the other hand, I'm not representing, you know, shareholders. I'm not representing the royal family. I'm just this this guy sitting room and typing. So you know, so I don't know that much to you. I don't have that much to lose. But I will say that when you talk about the royal family, you know, one of the biggest books, certainly in this country is Prince, who's the one who moved to the United States and Harry, Prince Harry's book. Yeah, I don't think I mean, the individual who wrote that book with him did Andre Agassi's memoir, which is, I think the best sports book ever. And one of the best memoirs ever. And the one about Harry's is beautifully written. But the thing is that I don't think is his right or did him a favor by putting some of the stories into that book that are like that the you know, the pushing incident or, you know, ripping the necklace incident incident. These are things that there's a there's a there's a tennis player, Maria Sharapova, and she did a she did a book with, with with somebody, an author I respect enormously. And there's a paragraph in there with her about how she had a certain famous tennis player as her coach, and it didn't work out. Well, you know, all of these things, whether it's Prince Harry, or Sharapova should never been in the book. Because yeah, maybe you know, the names, sell copies attract attention. But I mean, how much more attention is Prince Harry need, I mean, really, and so even if he hadn't put those stories in the book still would have sold 100 million, whatever it is copies around the world. So I think that you have to be really careful about what goes into the final draft, if you're doing a memoir, sometimes I call the first draft of a memoir, The therapy draft, because you're just getting on paper, all the things that in your head that you're carrying around about the people in your life. And the thing is that some of that stuff should not ever see the light of day. So they're in the therapy draft, but they're never in the final published draft. And if I had been working with Harry, I might have said to him, Look, that's a that's a powerful story about you and your brother and ripping the necklace or the chain, or whatever you call it, but you've got to have Thanksgiving dinner with or whatever the you know, in the UK, the equivalent is Boxing Day, whatever you guys do. And, and you're gonna have to, you'd have to live with him, he's your brother, you really want to put this in a book or you really because once you do, it's out there, you can't you know, you can't unring that bell. So you want to be really, really careful. If you if you say anything negative about anybody. Is there really a need for that? Is there really any cause for that? Does that make the world better? Does that make you look better? I don't think so. I think that I think that five to 10 years from now, he and Sharapova and anybody else who put stuff into a book just for the sake of sales. I haven't Read Britney Spears his book I'm not planning to. But if there's stuff in there, there may be stuff that you just your kids shouldn't know. And I just look long term look beyond the initial grudge. If you're doing a memoir, if you're doing a business book, there's absolutely no reason under any circumstances to put in anything negative about anybody. So, but if you're doing a memoir, think twice before you before you use your book as a means of unloading, especially in a family member. So take that Prince Harry.

Dave Barr  30:27

Indeed, I'm sure to have a word to say or to, you know, if he listen to it, of course, but there we go.

Michael Levin  30:31

You may want to invite him on The Real Life Buyer.

Dave Barr  30:33

Hey may be maybe I'm thinking though, do you think that social media platforms have some form to blame in this where everybody is to say, struggling with short attention spans, you have to make an impact in a very short period of time. In a short form content, obviously, is very popular, I think things start to move to long form content now. But because you're trying to capture some of the so quickly in the moment, that that kind of sensationalism approach is something that everybody's targeting, because they want to be front and center in in people's attention. Do you think that's part of the problem?

Michael Levin  31:14

I absolutely do. And I'm not a fan of I'm not a fan of social media. I'm not on any of the any of the social media things, I just people buy books by ghostwriting don't make a decision because they saw, you know what I had for breakfast on SNAP face or something like that. It's just, it just, it's just irrelevant to to what I do. And I mean, the only thing that I have that really makes me money or helps me be successful in life is my ability to think. And anything that I do, that harms my ability to, to concentrate to focus is just bad period, end of story. And I mean, I'm on my cell phone, I don't have the alarm, I don't have the things so that so it beeps or whatever, when I get a text or an email, I don't have that. So half the time of the phone thing off the ringer off, I'm not paid to be distracted or disrupted and paid to sit and focus and think when I was when I was in college, I stumbled into the ancient Greek department, there was a lot of drunkenness involved in the story. And I'm not going to detail but that's all it's all true. And I had a professor Rachel Kidd singer, whose father was one of the great Byzantine scholars in the UK. And she was brilliant. She is a brilliant, brilliant professor, and we're still in touch. And we're still friends, you know, almost 50 years on and 45 years on and Rachel would make her students sit there for seven hours a night where we you know, we would do it ourselves because we want to every word of the 40 lines of Greek we were translating to be perfect. We did not want to embarrass ourselves or let her down. And that ability to focus and stay tightly engaged with individual words. Makes me whatever I am that's what it's because I learned to do that there. And the problem with social media is that it interferes with my ability to use my attention for what matters most there are so many entities out there competing for attention today. The corporate world advertisers, the media individual influencers there's so many people in things out there that want my precious attention and dammit they can't have told me all the times I know I don't care. The thing is this still works and part of it is because I don't engage in that in that stuff. It's just pure oil and it's stupid and it's a waste of everybody's time in my humble opinion.

Dave Barr  33:55

Okay, I think we've got that quite clear then on that note....

Michael Levin  34:02

You got me started. So there it is.

Dave Barr  34:04

I've got some passion there we've got some passion coming out fantastic nothing wrong with that this is going to be quite brief then because before my last question be quite keen to for other people to know where do they find out more about you where do they go what websites what you know channels so that's quite a brief answer I guess.

Michael Levin  34:22

Well, yeah, I'm I have a couple of websites one is my name Michael Levin L E V I N and writes WRITES "MichaelLevinwrites.com" That's your basic ghost writing. If your a financial advisor "advisorghost.com" and if you would like to become a an author without hiring a ghost, I have a writing course called "The Best earning author system" because best earning, best selling author you can buy that you can game the system you can and still not make any money from your book. But if you'd like to be a best earning author, then I'll show you how at "bestearningauthor.com" and then the other way they can reach me is by calling plus one for the United States, or the colonies or whatever you call them over there. 617-543-3747, which is my cell. And I'll say it again, it's 617-543-3747 operators are not standing by, it's my cell. And I will answer the phone, I may not see that it rang because I don't have the ringer. But I will go right back if I missed you. And we'll talk. And those are the ways people get and get in, get in touch happiness.

Dave Barr  35:32

So I'll make sure those are in the show notes. So I'll catch up with you afterwards and, make sure I've got the exact detail there. But thank you for sharing that. So for my final question, because in time's running very short now, I'm interested in the future, but we're seeing radical change out there. We're seeing AI taking over the world. How do you see the future of business, storytelling and storytelling in itself evolving in decades to come? Do you think AI has a part in that?

Michael Levin  35:59

Well, a couple of things. One is that if I ever want to write a mediocre book, I'll turn to AI. That's my starting point. And the second thing is that a lot of people are afraid of AI, but they tend to be afraid of whatever the new thing is. So I would say it's nothing to be particularly afraid of. It's just something that's out there. At the end of the day business storytelling is, well, it's a marketplace of ideas, which means it's a competition of ideas, and the people who are the most sincere and the most desirous of helping others. And the people who want to do the most for the world are the ones who are going to reap the greatest success in life. That's how it's always been. Okay, there are robber barons and whatnot from time to time. And Elon Musk is weird. And we all know that. We all know that. But But here in the real world, the people are the most successful in business tend to be the people who hold themselves personally to the highest standards, because everything else just fades away. And I don't think anything really is going to change that radically. It's like Paul O'Neill making, making safety, his story, the best story will always win. So be the best storyteller. And remember that you're dealing with people and not columns and figures and all will be well.

Dave Barr  37:19

Brilliant, that's a great note to finish on. It's been a fantastic podcast, I'd love to the last we've had thank you for sharing some stories. And yeah, if you could, you know, we'll tie up and we'll make sure that everybody can connect with you straight after the show.

Michael Levin  37:33

This was a great pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Dave Barr  37:35

It was really fun. Take care. Thanks, Michael. So there's another Real Life Buyer podcast. I do hope you enjoyed it. And it has given you some ideas and inspiration for greater action and achievement. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss out on future episodes, and a five star review would be most appreciated. If you would like to discover more about me and what I do take a look at www.thereallifebuyer.co.uk. Bye.