Delivering Decarbonisation and Transforming Sustainability with Ben Churchill of Cool Planet

Today we bring you cutting-edge insights into the world of sustainability reporting, CSRD compliance, and automation. In this episode, we are joined by Ben Churchill, an authority on the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive (CSRD). Ben represents a pioneering company that's revolutionizing sustainability reporting. Their software platform simplifies CSRD compliance by automating data collection, mapping it to the CSRD framework, and generating reports with precision.

Dive deep into the ESG (Environmental, Social, and Governance) metrics, locale-specific CO2e emissions, and smart disclosure text that is reshaping the way businesses report on their sustainability journey. Join us for a masterclass in sustainability reporting and automation that's changing the game for companies worldwide.

ABOUT THE GUEST

Ben Churchill is Chief Strategy Officer for Cool Planet.

Ben has been with Cool Planet for over 5 years and held his current position for 3 of those. Ben studied Mechanical Engineering at Loughborough University, gaining his Masters in 2001.

Discover more here:

Website:        https://www.coolplanet.io/
Facebook:     https://www.facebook.com/CoolPlanet.io
Instagram:    https://www.instagram.com/coolplanet.io/
Twitter:          https://twitter.com/Coolplanet_io
TikTok:           https://www.tiktok.com/@coolplanet.io
YouTube:      https://www.youtube.com/@coolplanet7064/featured
LinkedIn:       https://www.linkedin.com/company/coolplanetio/

ABOUT THE HOST

My name is Dave Barr and I am the Founder and Owner of RLB Purchasing Consultancy Limited.

I have been working in Procurement for over 25 years and have had the joy of working in a number of global manufacturing and service industries throughout this time.

I am passionate about self development, business improvement, saving money, buying quality goods and services, developing positive and effective working relationships with suppliers and colleagues, and driving improvement through out the supply chain.

Now I wish to share this knowledge and that of highly skilled and competent people with you, the listener, in order that you may hopefully benefit from this information.

CONTACT DETAILS

@The Real Life Buyer
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Email: contact@rlbpurchasingconsultancy.co.uk

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Transcript

Intro  00:00

Welcome to The Real Life Buyer podcast. In this podcast, you will hear interviews with business owners, entrepreneurs, thought leaders, authors and technical specialists in their field. These professionals will hasten your development accelerate your career and broaden your business know how now introducing your host Dave Barr interviewing with a purchasing twist. Hello,

Dave Barr  00:21

Hello and welcome to The Real Life Buyer. In this episode, I have the pleasure of discussing how to deliver carbonization at scale with Ben Churchill, Chief Strategy Officer for Cool Planet. Ben has been with Cool Planet for over five years and has held his current position for three of those. Ben studied mechanical engineering at Loughborough University getting his master's in 2001. So let's not delay, let's dive in and discover lots about enterprise decarbonisation. Hello, Ben, and welcome to the podcast.

Ben Churchill  00:52

Hi, David. Thank you for having me.

Dave Barr  00:53

Absolute pleasure. Really interesting topic we're going to discuss today, certainly head of thought, shall we say for many people, many businesses and certainly governments as well. So perhaps before we go into the technical stuff, let's start by discovering more about yourself, perhaps your career and the background to the company Cool Planet?

Ben Churchill  01:11

Yeah, great. So I joined Cool Planet as you as you said in the intro there about five years ago, and I've worked with the founder Norman Crowley for probably five or 10 years before that, on various ventures. I first met him in Dubai, where I was running the largest facilities management company over there. And we collaborated on even back in those days energy efficiency projects. And prior to that, I was working with the now belated Carillion. So I had a career with them for up to about 2012 When I moved to the Middle East following running the large facilities management company, they called Emrill I left and got into the world of software. So I started I ran a listed company in Australia for a number of years, got a bit sick of the commute, so moved back to Dubai and then eventually joined Norman in Ireland to help build the software part of Cool Planet. So that's a bit of me and Cool Planet. We are a decarbonisation company. So we're primarily software and then technical services, but we deal with a whole suite of decarbonisation, so we don't leave people on their own, in terms of decarbonisation, a lot of that is around doing work doing engineering work. So we don't leave clients in the lurch is not here, some software work away. Good luck. It's here's some software, and here's some help kind of jokes that you wouldn't buy finances and without finance people. Same with decarbonisation, and there's not necessarily a deep bench of expertise out there. So we can provide those data organizations and then deliver projects that are necessary to do that deep level of decarbonisation at scale.

Dave Barr  02:47

Okay, so I noticed on your website, you seem to break things down into three offerings, in some respects, you got the software, you've got the consultation, support, the, I guess, the technical expertise and the execution phase, you want to mention, particularly anything about execution and what that means. 

Ben Churchill  03:02

Yeah, so what we are not about is writing a report that sits on the shelf somewhere, or selling some software that everybody fears, the login for action, people don't want to buy new software, and they don't really want consultanting, want they want is a result. So we're all about the results. So execution is delivering results. So whether it's identification, and then program management and delivery of E pumps, or optimization work, or whatever it is, we're all about locking in that result and locking in that result permanently.

Dave Barr  03:35

Okay, fabulous. That's great. Thank you for explaining that. So obviously, I mentioned at the beginning, everyone is talking about sustainability, carbon capture plenty of other environmental issues that we see lots of change on the planet, be it good or bad. And there's something that I've noticed, and I believe your website refers to called the corporate sustainability reporting directive, or CSRD sounds very technical. Can you kind of explain what that is, and why it's becoming increasingly important for businesses today.

Ben Churchill  04:06

So it's regulation from EU and its purpose is to create a level playing field for reporting around sustainability, and then put that in the same level of obligation as financial reporting. So as we're all pretty familiar with people have an obligation to report finances in a standard way, so people can be compared, and there's no, nothing unclear about what's being presented. CSRD does that for sustainability. It creates a level playing field, it says this is how you should report it. One of the drivers for it is to remove this idea of greenwashing and the fact that people can say something because they're doing a marketing event, but it's really not true. And it creates an obligation on organization to report and have report factually as they would about their financials.

Dave Barr  04:59

Right. So that's quite clear. But does that apply to all businesses no matter what their size, or their whether they are a manufacturer or service industry?

Ben Churchill  05:08

Yeah, so it applies to businesses over a certain scale immediately, and then an increasing level of capture of who's within the scope of that. But the reality is that everybody's in scope. Because if you, inevitably you interact with a business that is required to report in a certain way, therefore, you're going to be asked to, and that is even true of organizations that aren't based in Europe. So if you're a US organization, or an Australian organization, and you do significant businesses in Europe, linen accounts use similar way the GDPR affected everybody, it's the same idea. So it really does affect everybody.

Dave Barr  05:45

I guess for particularly for small businesses, I'm thinking about your mom and pop corner shop, for example, that sounds quite a daunting task ahead, something to fear almost do say it's something they should be worried about, even the very small little organizations.

Ben Churchill  05:59

I don't think it's anything to be worried about, it's not necessarily even going to mean that they're going to have to do really onerous reporting to a central body. But what it will mean is that they will be asked to do things by their clients, but the way I would reframe that is there's an opportunity, because if you can show that your front foot is out, and you're engaging in it, then there's more business to be got, actually. So as I see a lot of this regulation coming through, actually turned into opportunity and opportunity for value creation.

Dave Barr  06:33

Okay, so let's talk a little bit about the process. And by this process I mean by which companies should start and systematically plan their transition to maybe a best in class sustainability or just to meet the minimum obligations. So what is the process? How do people go about this? Can you, you know, put this in a context we can all understand quite easily.

Ben Churchill  06:54

Yeah. So a lot of this is about the beginning with measurement. So, before you do anything, there's a there's a case we go, where are we today? What what's currently going on. So whether that's measurements of your energy consumption, or where you are on a particular, others part of sustainability policy, my focus is mostly on energy, but it covers the full sustainability Gambit. So it's very much understanding where you are. And the first part of that process is what they call double materiality. So what you do for a double materiality assessment is, internally look at your business and work out, what are the material topics of CSRD for you, because not everything is going to be relevant, or it will be so insignificant, it's, it's, you can determine immaterial, and you can focus on the big things, it's really important to focus on the things that matter. So that's the first part. And then the double materiality is the external factors, how do you affect other people, so internally and externally come together to form double materials, and that then gives you a framework for the places to go and look and measure. Once you've done that you can go measure where you are today. And that becomes a baseline, a reporting baseline, and then there are other obligations over time in reporting and plans for continuous improvement, etcetera, etcetera. But the starting point is double materiality, and then understanding where you are from a baseline.

Dave Barr  08:17

Okay, so it's a lots of it sounds like lots of getting data. And again, I'm thinking of small to medium sized businesses who perhaps lack the resources, the knowledge, the competence, can you tell us some of the things that there'll be expected to gather some of the data things, you know, how easy would it be to grab that is is, is it all something that's very easy to measure themselves? Is it's something they'll have to estimate? How do they go about that? Well,

Ben Churchill  08:41

Well, so this is only a new, you're absolutely correct in highlighting data as a core challenge. It absolutely is the hardest piece. So we joke that certainly not the lack of data into getting the right data from the right places at the right time is the the key challenge there. Now, the there are certain areas where you can go and get it. So for example, energy consumption data you can get from your utility. Ideally, you're doing some smarter stuff, and that you're doing submetering and understanding what's going on within your business where they're very basic. You can go and get your energy data from, from your energy suppliers. Then there's other data where you can maybe have to make an estimate. So in the world of decarbonisation, we talked about the scopes of carbon so scope one and two. So scope one things you burn basically. So fuel scope to energy you buy and then just go three years while we call indirect emission. So it could be the use of your product if you're in manufacturing or the carbon embedded in something you buy. Reality is it scope through the largest but the hardest, so there's a lot of big carbon footprint in the scope three. It's really difficult to work out what it is. So very first thing you would do for that is to do work out what your materials suppliers are, who do you spend the most money with. And then you can go and do a very, very rough cut of what we call emissions factors to say, Well, I'm spending x amount with that supplier and that supplier in that country that or that type would have this amount of carbon per euro pound of spend. Therefore, roughly, this is the carbon footprint, and that becomes a basis, but that's the kind of lowest quality so it's all to looking at everything, we've taken the lowest quality version of it. And from that, you can say, well, now, this must provide the most material, I'm gonna get some higher quality data. Now, I'm going to work with that supplier and maybe get that data from that supplier, because the supplier is going to be asked by loads of different people for this, hopefully, that information will become more and more available over time. So the quality of the data that you're collecting will increase over time. But it's it's not. I mean, can seem like a daunting task. But he's not about getting it right first time it's about starting and then improving over time.

Dave Barr  11:02

Okay, I'm glad you mentioned the international flavor here some thinking perhaps of a very large company who might have complex supply chains, they could be buying from India, to China to Vietnam, the US when those companies have such a complex series of events happening from all different sorts of countries with different levels of competence and knowledge and skills. How are they going to try and manage the, you know, firstly obtaining the data, and then verifying that that data is in some way accurate?

Ben Churchill  11:36

Well, it's a huge challenge. There's not there's not the there's not misunder understand how big that challenge is particularly large retailers or large organizations that can have extraordinarily complex supply chains. But it's a solvable challenge. So first of all, if this isn't just about CSRD, there's another piece of legislation within the EU called carbon border adjustment mechanism, which and its its sole purpose is to solve the problem of carbon being outsourced. So what was historically happening under the emissions trading scheme was where things were costly to the manufacturer in Europe, because carbon charges were being charged, I just go and buy it from somewhere else. So it's what they call leakage. So the carbon border adjustment mechanism has been bought in to solve that problem. So what a very crudely what it means is that as goods are imported into Europe, you have to be able to justify the carbon content. And if you can't, there's a big tariff that goes on. So what is the what is that doing, and we have evidence of this now happening is that suppliers who supply in Europe are starting to realize that they're going to be impacted by this. So they're getting smarter about what they do. So it's kind of a push pull, you've got suppliers who want to market into Europe, so becomes a differential advantage for selling in. But if you've got a complex supply chain, you're trying to encourage your suppliers to do that. And you can do that a little bit through competition, because you may have a number of suppliers and they're competing with each other. So you can kind of drive that within them. But we're working with some retailers where they're introducing us to suppliers that they have large spends with and we're working with the supplier, measuring to reduce their carbon. And the great thing about that is, it's a solid business case for them, they're saving money. So there's no pushback with that open door, it's gonna take a while to go through a very complex supply chain. But the right mechanisms are in there to drive the right behavior.

Dave Barr  13:36

Okay, there's two things that kind of jumped out for me there. One is time, how long have we got to do this? And secondly, is the data accuracy? How is it going to be verified by some body government body, whoever it may be to assess whether you're actually reporting something that is accurate or not, because the the data going in is rubbish, then it's, it's bit meaningless. And people can make it up just to get the numbers in.

Ben Churchill  14:02

It is, but that's why we would we rate with an error in what we do is we rate the quality of data that is getting so you go right from emissions factors, very unreliable, self certification, pretty unreliable, through to direct instrumentation, pretty reliable. So there's kind of that phase. Also, what you're starting to see in the same way that you would have financial auditing, you have carbon auditing. So the nice KPMG, et AL are now providing assurance services for that kind of data as well. So an organization like us might help her company collect it, visualize it, and the KPMG of the world might validate that their data is real. So that's certainly happening. Talk to your first question about how long or very long we've got to get on with these problems, and it's a big one. But one of the things that we recognize is necessary is to solve the scale the decarbonisation problems. So we've spent years working from the ground up with organizations with factories, particularly or portfolios for buildings to, to optimize them to make them work better. This needs to start being a top down approach with an organization in the same way that health and safety changed 20 years ago, because it became C suite priority. The same has to happen for carbon. So standardization of approach, setting of target delivery of targets, CEO accountability C suite accountability, that then drives change quicker and quicker. And what we've seen happen typically in the last 18 months, is the money change and the focus from the money change. So private equity, investment funds are very much focusing on decarbonisation of their portfolios, their portfolio companies. So we're working with a number of private equity companies who are actively engaging with large industrial companies that are within their portfolios, helping them with decarbonisation strategy, and working with us to do that.

Dave Barr  16:05

Okay, so let's say now we've got what we think is fairly reliable data going back to your software, does that lead people to understand what they've got to capture that take the data and then do something with it, you know, how does it convert that data into something that is meaningful in the way that the legislation is going to require. I'm thinking of targets now. And the benefits, okay, there's the benefits that we know that in theory the planet is going to be looked after in a much better way. Is it only going to be that you have to achieve a target and as long as  you get that or better, that's okay. Is there an incentive? If you go beyond that, than actually there's something other than PR good for you? Do you get any credits and the benefits and a rebates, you know, something that that could incentivize a company to go beyond the minimum? And conversely, what's the consequences of you not achieving the target? Do you just get fined? Can you explain that all?

Ben Churchill  16:24

Yeah, so just talk, let's build a little bit around the legislation. Before I answer that question. The legislation is a framework and it's going to drive right sorts of behaviors. But it is not just about meeting legislation. It's about doing a decarbonisation. So let's be clear, the objective is to decarbonize, the reporting, and all of that sort of stuff is just part of the thing you have to do. So what we do is we connect into those operational systems ERPs, whatever the data sources, so we joke, we like to collect data from dark places. So you know, there's a wealth of data out there, like there's an organizer, and then from that identify what the key opportunities are to meet an organization's decarbonisation goals. So quite often people have published things like science based targets or equivalent, really don't have any notion as to how they're going to get to the answer, we're able to visualize that. So here's your glide path, as we call it, though, here, here's your CRM, decarbonisation. So the all of the activities that are going to going to meet your goal, and this is how qualified they are. So this is a dead cert, this is a 20% chance. And this is how it builds up against your program over the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years. And this is the capital required to do it. So we help an organization go from plant room to Boardroom so they can understand that these activities in these factories are going to have this impact in the overall answer. And then keep track of that during that journey. That's what the software does. But I kind of joke with people. Sometimes when we're talking to clients, fans will say to us, what are you doing in AI? Can we have some AI to do this? And we'll go, yeah, maybe just meter everything first, because you haven't got any energy meters. So what are you going to do with the AI. And it's so common just to see that the basics aren't done. So let's get those basics done. Let's deploy the capital to do that first, AI is going to be the last 5, 10%. Most of it's done by some good practical engineering that we know what to do with. So the thing is, this problem is solvable when we know how to decarbonize organizations, but they just get in their own way. So what we really understood we spend 10 years being an overnight success. But although it's really meant to us we learned a lot about the engineering. And we realized, and it was a bit of an epiphany, that we were we were talking to clients and we'd be able to prove that we've taken 80% out of an optimum doing an optimization out of some energy consumption. And we did have one plant and they got 100. And then we go, when are we going to do the next one? And then there's like multiples. Maybe next year, we have more but this isn't this isn't decarbonization and scale up what's going on. So we were working with a large consultancies, a partner of ours called Slalom and we realized that what's happening is we completely ignored the fact that this is a huge change management problem. So this isn't the technology is solvable. That's that's actually the easy bit. The heart of it is how do you align an organization to the change, so aligned objectives, align compensation, aligned communication, it's not just about the engineering brief, just going to solve an engineering problem making someone look bad in a really bad way of doing it. You actually need to bring everybody on that journey. And you know, it's logical in hindsight, but as a group of engineers, we never really thought about it. So a lot of the future of this for us is building the programs of decarbonisation to do it at scale. Yes, well, so is there an incentive to go beyond it kind of is I suppose in that what we're really talking about is efficiency. So decarbonisation is a nice, fancy, complex word for not wasting stuff, and what business doesn't, who wants to waste anything, and then that's just not good. It's not particularly good businesses, it's so so what we're talking about who's just not wasting stuff being more efficient. So there's kind of there is a bit of a carrot in the stick in that it's good business. So you don't want to waste things. But you may get to a law of diminishing returns, you've done everything easy. You've done the next level of stuff you've made the investments in capital, the next is gonna take a lot more, what do you do? Well, there's, there's other things you can do, you can enter into, if you've done lots of electrification, you can enter into green power purchase agreements, with reputable providers, there's other stuff that can happen there. And that generally will have a cost advantage. But I think then, the thing that's going to drive this, the other end is that as the legislation tightens up, and as some customers are demanding more and more, then you become a better, you become a better in a better place in the market to sell your products or services. So So I think those things drive together terms of going beyond I mean, does Microsoft have actually said their target is to take out all of their historical emissions as well, which I thought was quite interesting. And we're doing a partnership with Arcadis, who are a large listed Netherlands based engineering services company, I think 40,000 people around the world. And our target with them is to decarbonize the carbon footprint of the Netherlands. So you've got big organizations, making it front and center in their strategy, which I think is really powerful.

Dave Barr  22:29

Okay. On your website, there's also a downloadable, complete guide on ISO 50,001. I believe this standard has been developed for those companies wishing to achieve and be recognized as striving for things referred to as systematic energy savings. For those people who have never heard of this standard. Can you sum up any any highlights the main highlights the main benefits, the main things that people ought to know about the standard and what it means to them.

Ben Churchill  22:59

So it's in a similar way to other ISO standards, a framework to a best practice to deal with a particular subject, in this case, energy management, and it follows the same sorts of plan, do, act kind of structures that ISOs tend to actually we embed that into our software as, because we find it a very familiar toolset for people to be able to understand now the benefits are quite interesting, in that there are obligations in the UK for SCCR for what's it called ESOS, which are energy reporting obligations, if you have ISO 50,001, you automatically meet those requirements. So it's kind of worth just doing that. And then you can discharge all of your other obligations. Similarly, we would say CSRD, there's a huge crossover in the energy piece of CSRD and 50,001. So quite a lot of these standards haven't been built in isolation. So for the GRI, for example, Global Reporting Initiative, is about 80% of that went into CSRD. So a lot of these standards do have significant overlap. So something like ISO 50,001 is never a bad thing to do, because it will help you discharge it and responsibility across multiple rewind.

Dave Barr  24:14

Right, great. Now, before I ask my last question, I'm sure you want to share with everybody information about Cool Planet where they can find more about them. Where do you hang out?

Ben Churchill  24:24

Basically, we hang out in the usual places, www.cool planet.io And LinkedIn, of course, so they're the kind of cool places and you can kind of see what we do and reach out to us if you're interested in doing what we're doing and also hang out with our partners. So we hang out with KPMG. We hang out with Arcadis. We hang out with other partners in different territories around the world to help people decarbonize right.

Dave Barr  24:50

I noticed you seem to be on pretty much all the social media platforms, your Facebook's the Instagrams, the Twitter's, the TikTok's as well. So there's an awful lot of information basically out there, by the seems that it.

Ben Churchill  25:00

Oh, there is I don't hang out there though.

Dave Barr  25:03

That's fine. Okay. Last question. So, in today's business landscape, we've got investors and consumers and they're increasingly interested in companies sustainability efforts, something that's almost on the TV on a daily basis now, We've talked about the broader impacts of CSRD compliance. And it's clearly can enhance a company's reputation. What other things can it really drive? We're talking financial benefits, we're talking about investment benefits, and the fact that it's driving lots of positive change, how would you sum up some of those things? And can you share an example of perhaps a case study or something that you've done, where you can demonstrate to the audience? What a fantastic opportunity, they've got to work with a company like yours? What can be achieved?

Ben Churchill  25:55

Oh, so there's a lot to unpack in that question. So just kind of picking those upon a time, the CSRD, certainly in the investment landscape, increasingly, as I was talking about earlier on, investment companies are putting sustainability performance as a key attribute in their investments, not universally, there has been some pushback against that in the US. But I think where it is aligned to the idea that you're reducing waste, then it just makes good business sense. So that's a really, really important thing. And we have clients that we work with, particularly in the real estate sector, where, who have two problems is that if they don't do it, they ended up with stranded assets, because consumers and businesses are only renting properties that don't have certain level of efficiency. And then secondly, their cost of capital goes up, if they can't prove that they're driving these, these changes. So the investment landscape is really, really driving a different thing. So compliance to CSRD, massively has impacted or can help that. But it's not forget employees as well. So we're finding that people join our organization, because not because we pay the best not because of anything other than, you know, we're doing good. We're in the right space, people want to be part of that, you know, we were clearly a for profit company, but for for profit company with a purpose, I think what CSRD an implementation of that is it becomes a way of signaling externally, how your performance isn't there, and how much you care about it. And that becomes a really important part of hiring people. It always makes me laugh that everybody wants to be the employer of choice, because if everybody does that, nobody is. But it is a way of differentiating yourself if you do it, right. And then customers I, you know, I being a consumer myself, it's really difficult. I, I was chatting with my wife recently, because I was putting things in the recycling bin that aren't recyclable. But yeah, they look the same as the other things that are recyclable, and you find yourself picking through packaging, recycle that, and it goes only recycle bin in large supermarkets. And I'm not going to drive to the recycler. And then you go and leave. But this you have difficulties. So if, if an organization took this seriously, and just said, right, we're gonna make everything either not putting in packaging at all, or make everything recyclable, that would make a difference to people's lives. And I'd pay a little bit more for that now. Not everybody would, and not everybody can. So that's a problem in itself. But it's this sort of legislation that helps the end user because it sorts all of that sort of stuff out. And there's a lot to sort out. I mean, I still can't believe in this day and age, I'm buying stuff from large multinational companies and big brands that I can't recycle. It's ridiculous. It's through this sort of thing that we solve that problem? And that was another part of your question. I completely forgot here.

Dave Barr  28:56

So a typical or perhaps a really good wow factor case study, we've worked with somebody, and the changes that you've managed to deliver is really significant. I'm sure everybody likes to hear stories, and to hear something that's really motivating is always great audio.

Ben Churchill  29:14

So Bulmers, Irish Cider, are a leading brand who set science based targets, they wanted to reduce their scope one and two emissions by 35%. Scope three by 25% by 2030. So you know, solid ambitions, and we implemented our Cool Planet OS software into their plants. So that would be connecting into all of their systems identifying through that where waste was optimization opportunities. And within as I mentioned, earlier, within our platform, we have this idea of a decarbonisation CRM so you can add ideas, you can qualify those news and run them through the process. So we did that with Bulmers and managed to get and deliver and lock in 42% saving across their business in scope one and two. So well well beat their, that their target. And that was so good that the guys have been entirely happy to film videos and publish what we've done there. A lot of that was around delivering gas savings, electrification, there was a large rooftop solar project as part of it. So I think important message in that is that you've got some of that work is optimization and just spotting waste, some of it is small changes. And because we've got some expertise and energy that we're we can deliver some of that then would be deploying capital effectively, and understanding where you are in the capital cycle. But coming together now, it's like a nearly 50%, saving in energy. That's pretty significant. You scale that up across the world, you've solve a big part of the problem.

Dave Barr  30:52

Brilliant, I think some great things that you've helped to clarify for people today, from a small business right up to a big business isn't gonna go away, that's for sure. So you can't bury your head in the sand and do a la la la moment, should we say so I think that's been really helpful for for for people, particularly the smaller businesses who aren't aware of their future obligations. So lots of thank you for sharing that today. And for sharing all the good work that Cool Planet are doing for this country as well.

Ben Churchill  31:21

Thank you for having me.

Dave Barr  31:22

Thanks very much. So there's another Real Life Buyer podcast. I do hope you enjoyed it. And it has given you some ideas and inspiration for greater action and achievement. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss out on future episodes. And a five star review would be most appreciated. If you would like to discover more about me and what I do. Take a look at www.thereallifebuyer.co.uk Bye.