Safeguard Your Business: IP Laws, AI Risks, and Legal Tips for 2024 with Steven Weigler

ABOUT THE GUEST

Today’s guest is Steven Weigler, the Founder and Executive Counsel of leading US law firm EmergeCounselSM that offers sophisticated business and intellectual property counsel to entrepreneurs worldwide. 

Steven has developed a deep expertise in the evolving field of eCommerce law, guiding hundreds of online businesses from their initial concept through to successful sale. With decades of legal experience, Steven also brings a unique perspective, having served as a Senior Attorney for a Fortune 50 communications company and founded and led an educational technology startup as CEO and General Counsel for seven years. 

To learn more about Steven and his work please visit these links:

Website:       https://emergecounsel.com/
LinkedIn:       https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenweigler/
Facebook:     https://www.facebook.com/emergecounsel
Instagram:    https://www.instagram.com/emergecounsel
X:                   https://x.com/EmergeCounsel
YouTube:      https://www.youtube.com/@Emergecounsel/featured

ABOUT THE HOST

My name is Dave Barr and I am the Founder and Owner of RLB Purchasing Consultancy Limited.

I have been working in Procurement for over 25 years and have had the joy of working in a number of global manufacturing and service industries throughout this time.

I am passionate about self development, business improvement, saving money, buying quality goods and services, developing positive and effective working relationships with suppliers and colleagues, and driving improvement through out the supply chain.

Now I wish to share this knowledge and that of highly skilled and competent people with you, the listener, in order that you may hopefully benefit from this information.

CONTACT DETAILS

@The Real Life Buyer
Email: david@thereallifebuyer.co.uk
Website: https://linktr.ee/thereallifebuyer

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Email: contact@rlbpurchasingconsultancy.co.uk

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Click here for some Guest Courses - https://www.thereallifebuyer.co.uk/guest-courses/

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Transcript

Intro  00:00

Dave, welcome to The Real Life Buyer podcast. In this podcast, you will hear interviews with business owners, entrepreneurs, thought leaders, authors and technical specialists in their field. These professionals will hasten your development, accelerate your career, and broaden your business. Know how now, introducing your host, Dave Barr, interviewing with a purchasing twist. 

Dave Barr  00:21

Hello and welcome to The Real Life Buyer. Today's guest is Steven Weigler, also known as the empathetic attorney, the founder and executive Counsel of a leading US law firm, emerge council that offers sophisticated business and intellectual property counsel to entrepreneurs worldwide. Steven has developed a deep expertise in the evolving field of E commerce law, guiding hundreds of online businesses from their initial concept through to successful sales. With decades of legal experience, Steven also brings a unique perspective, having founded and led an education technology startup as CEO and General Counsel for seven years. Additionally, Stephen served as a senior attorney for a Fortune 50 communications company. In this podcast, I wish to explore how to help SME business owners protect their brand and intellectual property assets. So without further ado, I welcome Stephen onto the podcast. Hi Stephen. 

Steven Weigler  01:21

Good to see David. How's things going? 

Dave Barr  01:23

Very well. Thank you. Not so bad at all. So I always like to dive into a little bit of the background of some of my guests, and I'm intrigued to discover what kind of factors have sustained your passion for law for over 30 years. And if you had taken a different career path. What would you have chosen to do instead?

Steven Weigler  01:43

That's a super interesting question. I mean, my my career path was never particularly linear. Um, I always, I knew, probably, from like, you know, 10th grade on that I wanted to go to law school. And it really was an interest in Injustice and an interest in in I was a political science major, and I actually worked on on Capitol Hill back when I was a little senior in Washington, DC, for the House of Representatives. And so I always had an interest in in government and politics and and and and justice, and especially criminal justice. And so I my short term goal at that time, which I really had no long term goal because I was young and really didn't think about it too much. Was, was I wanted to be a prosecutor in a major city. And so I started in New York, and then I ended up at the Miami District Attorney's Office, or it's called the State Attorney's Office. And so Miami is is had a lot of action, and I learned quickly that that really as much as I was passionate about and it was interesting that really wasn't a something I wanted to do, period. So I, you know, I tried a lot of cases. I saw, I became very attuned to different racial and and socioeconomic groups. And so it was, it was like enlightening, having grown up in the suburbs of Milwaukee, but the, you know, I knew I didn't want to do that forever. And so I really that started. I had to really soul search after a lot of people go into career and say, Hey, this is what I'm going to do. And I really had to soul search, and ended up after doing some civil war, because I had to bridge the gap a little bit. But I ended up in in technology law for AT and T, which is a, you know, huge telecommunications conglomerate. Well, when I went into AT and T, I thought that was a job for life. And then the next thing you know, AT and T got bombed. So AT and T and telecom melted. And so it just isn't my my field really basically went away. And so, um, I had to sit down and think about, well, what, what are the things that I learned out of that? And also, at the time, AT and T gave me as part of the exit package, a substantial sum for to say if I wanted to do a startup. And so I never had the opportunity where someone was actually handing me money to do a startup, and I really wanted to think big, and started a predictive analytics company focused on school districts in the United States, whether students early warning factors on students dropping out. We take, we take the data from the school districts, and we had our own data and our own assessments, and we crunch them and provide a report, and even a report to the students on the factors, such as a lot of objective factors, but a lot of subjective factors too, like, are they feeling bored? Are they feeling like, are their parents in the way of success? Are the teachers in the way of success? And so we built this whole predictive analytic, and it did so. I had to raise a lot of money for that, and it did very well. Sure, there were trials and tribulations, but it grew like not hockey stick, but for business to govern. And it grew, and I had to raise even more money to build a sales force and do all these things. But anyway, I was busy building a company, and I diluted I ended up diluting myself out of the enterprise. I won't call it an enterprise, after out of the small business after a number of years. And before that, we were going to sell to a major educational conglomerate. And something happened that had nothing to do with the success of sale, just life. Over on the other side, there was a cab driver decided to commit suicide one day and drove the person who was going to convince a sale into a traffic circle in Boston who flipped the cab, and the guy never came back. So anyway, the point is is, like, I learned a lot about like life and that things happen. And running a company, it was enlightening, to say the least. And so that's that leads me to Emerge Council. Because at the time, you know, I was, I don't know, maybe 50 or younger, 48 and I wasn't in the financial condition, nor the the mental condition, to just stop and, you know, play golf, because I don't even play golf, um, is, and so I really put down all of my skills on a piece of paper, and that led me to wow. You know, I really have a unique ability to counsel businesses and advocate for businesses, because, again, I have a litigation background too, towards success. And so that's really the start of EmergeCounsel ℠, and we've been around for nine years. And we take a, you know, in a way, it's a very different approach to to our clients in law, but in a way, it's, you know, law is law. And I It's, um, there's facts, there's law. It's very logical. I know a lot about a lot of different kinds of transactions. I know what's going to happen if you don't do it right? And so that's my passion, and I've really enjoyed the journey. You know, not every day. You know, it's been fun. And a lot of my even in scholar centric, which was my last but since a lot of my clients, the clients were international. So I really know a lot about international work and the nuances and spend a lot of time building relationships around around the globe, right?

Dave Barr  07:05

Well, thanks very much for sharing that journey. Some of it obviously quite difficult, some of it perhaps more inspiring and positive, yes, but yeah, as you say, everybody's journey is is different, and I'm glad that you're with me today to share yours.

Steven Weigler  07:21

Well, thank you. 

Dave Barr  07:21

So let's dive into some of the subject matter today. Can you kind of help us understand what steps businesses can take to protect their copyright protected content from being getting copied by others and distributed by others, particularly on the big search engines and social media platforms. How do we stop that? Is there any way of stopping it?

Steven Weigler  07:44

The answer is yes, absolutely. And it can be difficult. And so everything has to have a strategy in business. I think, I think, you know, if you go rudderless in any aspect of your business, and sometimes, honestly, I feel like I'm right there with everyone else. You know, it's like, whoa. I didn't really think about that. I don't have a plan, a strategy. And when it comes to a legal strategy, you know, I find the message I want to give out is a lot of people, it's, I get it. It's the last call you want to make. You think that every moment's on the clock. It's not a particularly, it's not particularly either interesting, or it can be daunting, and it's not in most people's subject matter expertise. So they don't want to speak to an attorney, or they don't look forward to it, trust me, when I'm my business, and again, I am an attorney, I had to consult with tax business.business. You know, it's like, you know, you'd wake up you look at the calendar. The point is, with the legal strategy, a lot of people can procrastinate on that, but you need a strategy. You need to start by taking a look at what are your intellectual property assets. So there's different there's trademark, there's which it protects brand, which I am a huge advocate of protecting copyright, protects the things that go around brand, like the artwork, the the physical copy of the of the marketing copy, and everything that that's, that's copyright. And in the United States, it's different than a lot of other countries. You have to register that copyright to get into court. You own the copyright, but to to enforce it, you need a registered copyright. So that's, one. And then patent is, is a lot more complicated, and strategically, you need a strategist. And the fourth is trade secret. So you have to and trade secret is what you build internally and with your vendors contractually to protect the property, the intellectual property, from getting it. So the point is, is you have to take all your whole interface with your your clients and third parties, and you have to map out what, what's the secret kernels of of that strategy, or of that content that you want to protect because you're, for example, I have a company that's a greeting card company. Well, they make 1000s of greeting cards a year. Here that would be even, even like Hallmark and the big companies don't, I don't think they file, from my research, I could be wrong on that. They file registration for 1000s of copyrights. That's just not practical. So you have to sit down and figure out, well, what's the secret elements? Is it? Is it the colour scheme? Is it the is it the fact that they use a certain kind of paper in the internal green card is that, you know, through a vendor, and they get it at, you know, pennies to the dollar. What is the, what is the secret sauce of the intellectual property? And it's always going to be the first one is always going to be brand. And so you have to sit down, and you have to have a deliberate strategy to protect the maximum amount of your brand at the minimum amount of price. And so what we've done is we have a, yeah, I've actually almost productized it. It's called Total TM, and what it is is it is a it is a thorough process to see if your brand is ever going to infringe on or is, at the time, infringing on any other brands by looking doing an algorithmic search and then filing copyright, I'm sorry, filing trademark at the United States Patent and Trademark Office of British it doesn't matter. It could be a combination of the British IP Office. It could be the Canadian IP Office, you know, we but we're looking at a strategy. How are we going to get that done at the minimum amount of price and and so the point is, is, if you do that and then look at some copyright like, what is your sales collateral? A lot of times it's it can be, um, copywriting, the the design of your web page. So everyone has a unique design, like, I'm looking at yours, you know, the that's a that's a design that could be the the background, the high rises, the red and and gray. All that is is out in one valve swoop, can be protected and in copyright. And so we and then we execute on that strategy. Now, if you don't, that takes, you know, could take a week, like, it's not, it's not a huge exercise, and it's not several 1000s of dollars. And so you do that, and then at the time you start seeing infringement, sometimes it's too late. Many times, if you didn't go through the protection exercise, you're kind of out of luck. But when you start seeing the infringement, then it depends where it is, if it's like a pirated website. If you have the copyright, you can go to what's called I can, which is the international collaboration of and protocol for web, and initiate a takedown or an arbitration, which the other side will never go through if it's if it has to do with something that you see on a third party website, like if you're an Amazon seller, then you can work through Amazon and and, but that's that's an art in about of itself. If you have direct infringement, like that you're seeing it, you can do what's called a takedown service. And we have relationships with takedown services. Because what I think a lot of people don't realize is, when you start seeing it, it's, it's usually not a someone sitting in their basement. It's, it's a deliberate effort, many times coming from overseas, and you have to handle, handle it, um, through multiple prompts. And so, you know, again, it sounds daunting. A lot of times it's, it's not as bad as it seems, if you work with a counsel, because, again, it's like we have, it's almost like going hunting or fishing. You know, you don't fish with one lure. You have a number of lures that you have in your tackle box. I'm not much of a fisherman, but, um, you know, you have, you you have a set of tools that you use, and you have to know when to apply, what, when, but the what this, there's a saying, you know, one, one ounce of prevention is greater than a pound of care. And so that's really how it works. Um, and if you have the protected number one, you're not the low hanging fruit for infringement, because you're going to show that you have that protection either through a C or an R. And you know, even a skilled infringer is going to, if you put a C that alone, isn't going to do it, because they can go to the copyright office in two seconds and see if that's really copyrighted. And so, you know, they're going to go for the low hanging fruit, usually. And so again, they're not going to go for a company that that has well protected goods or services. And so that's, that's really, it's, I know it's a long answer, but protection, it involves strategy, and it involves using the tools properly without spending a tonne of money, right.

Dave Barr  14:37

So can I just clarify for a small business owner this sounds quite a complicated area, but it sounds like using the right person or company. The actual process to copyright is relatively straightforward, and it's not too expensive either, and therefore it's well worth investing a small amount of money and time in. Would you agree?

Steven Weigler  14:57

100%, the challenge is really. Again, copyright the office in the United States has a lot of they call them circulars, but they're rules, and so you have to know how to how to file to get the maximum amount of protection for the minimum amount of price without getting without getting rejected. And the challenge at the Copyright Office is there's millions of things that are on in their registry, but you can't search it or anything, or it would be a client has never asked me to search just because it's it would be 1000s and 1000s of dollars. So, you know, you're kind of taking a chance that this is original and but it is very inexpensive to file the application. The question is, what application are you going to file?

Dave Barr  15:40

For those people, when you think of search engines and social media, they are vast in their own right. How on earth could you determine whether your copyright is being infringed? How do you find areas where people are using your stuff? What's the best way of trying to identify if people are taking your brand for a kind of ride and trying to use it. It just seems it got a massive sea out there all this information and data. But how do you know, or how can you find out whether your copyright is being infringed relatively easily?

Steven Weigler  16:17

Yeah well, first you're going to see it, sometimes you see it in your sales numbers. Sometimes you So, if we go in the world of E commerce, you know you're going to see it. A lot of people have back end software that are going to see, hey, my numbers went down. Or, Wow, someone's using my back end keywords. Or, all of a sudden, I have a unique kind of planted back end keyword that someone's using and you're going to see their site, but usually it's, it's it's the numbers go down, or they're monitoring the good or service in more the for the general business owner, or even the services business you're going to start a tip off sometimes is you get customer confusion, Like they call and they're like, why aren't you located in Texas? And you're like, No. And then they read off, well, it says, you know,EmergeCounsel ℠ in Texas, we represent, we have oil in our oil clients, our Texas, you know, something that you'd be like, well, that's not me, but it sounds like, you know, my advertising window. And then you, you go back and see. So it just, it's something usually comes up that that is of impact on the business. I know, I, you know, some of my marketing content or blogs I've written have been infringed. I've seen that and, you know, but then some of it's like, well, maybe it just was information, maybe that should be in the public domain anyway. So, you know, that's another analysis you have to make. What impact is it going to have to the company? And that's when you're making your copyright analysis. You're really saying, All right, well, what's a really big deal? If you if it is e commerce, or it is something where you're selling in mass over broad swaths of the world, there are services, again, that will run a algorithmic search to see the breadth of the infringement, and usually it's extremely, much larger when you're seeing it than you think it is. So you don't want to play that game of Whack a Mole, but because it's a that's a loser's game, and so you have to have a strategy that kind of takes it all out at one time, um, and that gets, I can go into it, but it gets really complicated, both in the United States and Britain, and anywhere it's, um, there's strategies to take them all down at one time. And it can be quite lucrative, obviously, but it's, um, it's a novel like judges don't even really understand what you're trying to do here, so that can take up a lot of time.

Dave Barr  18:46

Right now, there's lots of emerging technology, obviously AI being one of them. Now, are there, or is there a developing that you've seen, an AI technology that you can use to do the searching for you, can you put in, obviously, your your imagery, your information, in such a way that AI can go and go out to the world wide web and check out whether anything is being duplicated in any other area or sphere. Is that something that's coming to the fore in your industry?

Steven Weigler  19:18

But there's the thing I'm noticing with AI is it's, you know, bad in, bad out, and so it's, it's only going on the data that's been uploaded to AI. And so sometimes, if I do, you know, just my own organic AI search, which, now, you know, on a on a newer computer, you just push that, that new kind of button that looks like, at least on Microsoft and, you know, you type it in, and it comes out, spits out a report, Co Pilot, you know. But then check the sites, and you see, wow, that that came from some piece of advertising from, you know, Indonesia, you know, it's just like, kind of like, wow. It's bad. In. And so that's one issue, but I think you want to work with a technology vendor, and if anyone wants to, you know, do it themselves, feel free to contact me, and I'll give you the name of some of my vendors. But they're incorporating AI for sure, but they were incorporating AI before we even knew about AI. So it's, it's sophisticated, it's, it's good. But if they're not using AI, wow, that would be their product would be very good. So again, I think you have to know your vendor. And if you want to, you know, go in, through and through, and check out the sites and make sure that you know what this, what's spitting out is, is right? Yes, AI would be good for for everyone, if you but in this you need, you know, it's kind of like if you're gonna going back to the fishing, if you're gonna filet a fish, you can use your kitchen knife, but you can, you can do that, and you probably would have a filet fish, or you can use, you know, some special knife that you find at a at a fishing store that, you know, just really can get that nailed. And so it's really up to the consumer on on what kind of tools they really want to use?

Dave Barr  21:03

Yeah, I'm just thinking of all the information you mentioned blogs earlier on that we all put out there, and obviously with today's AI technology, that information is being assessed and gathered and analyzed and everything else. Is there any way that? Or do you know if AI in any way determines whether certain information that you put out is already copyright protected and therefore doesn't reuse it again when people put in questions and so forth, is the technology at a point where it says, Oh, this information is copyright protected? I mustn't repeat it to anybody who is searching for, you know, the answer to a particular question. Do you think that's been done, or is it indiscriminate? At the moment, AI just searches everything and uses it as it wants to.

Steven Weigler  21:55

No, there's, there are, you know, newspapers, for example, they don't want to get sued for copyright infringement. So they're going to run everything through AI to make sure that these days, to make sure that nothing is on is directly quoted, or if it is the quote is attributed. So yes, the technology exists. I think it's relatively inexpensive, if not free. But let's keep in mind copyright only protects works of art that are in a that can be memorialized in a fixed media. And so if I conceptualize the same idea, that's not going to be protected by copyright, if I literally copy what you said like it's a literal copy. And that's what happened on my blog, it's like maybe 20 words, in my case, more and no attribution. That Steven Weigler said this, it's, it's, you know, just word for word that that's copyright infringement. And so that's why it's a it's a good tool, but it's not the tool. Many of the times you have to integrate it with other tools to to have some, some viable protection, because I can take a complicated concept that you might have of um expressed, not attributed to you, just rewrite it. And unfortunately, there's AI to do that too.

Dave Barr  23:13

Yeah absolutely. Now I'm thinking obviously business owners who are engaging with both suppliers and customers, and obviously, quite often they are signing agreements, and usually those agreements have in place different clauses on intellectual property and copyright and so forth. Can you give any particular advice to those business owners that perhaps don't have the kind of financial resources to engage with highly experienced and professional attorneys like yourself, can you give us some indications of the things that they should make sure they are either not signing up to or they include in an agreements they pass on for other people to sign? Is there any any assistance you can give, any guidance you can give that will help them to have an effective copyright and IP protection in their own agreements?

Steven Weigler  24:02

Sure. So there's something that we can all and again, I think it's, um, I can either put it on my website or contact me, or you can find it on, you know, any, any, just Google it. It's something called a work for hire, work for hire agreement. And so I always encourage my clients, and when I meet with them at for the first time, which I really don't charge for, um, because I want to get to know them in their business, we really map out what's your what's your flow, like, where do the goods, if it's a goods company, where are the goods coming from? What? What are they? And then, where are you? What do you? Who do you work with to get your customized goods or services. And then, like, is it independent contractors, which, in the US is a concept that they're not employed, but you have a contract with them. Or are they employees? Or are they third party vendors? You know that aren't either, so you map that out. And then, where is the product? Who? Who's your audience? Like, where's the product going out? So that's something that any entrepreneurial organization can do, is start by mapping out what are the pain points, what are the possible places that this can this can breach, and so that that's number one. Then by looking at that, you can see your strengths and weaknesses and what you need in your agreements. But if you have a for example, and we just had this is at the M and A table where we're, like, in the middle of trying to sell a company, and we can't find a work for hire provision in for the artwork and the logo. So someone created the logo. If, in copyright, you own that logo, if you create it, but if you created under an employment or you signed what's called a work for hire agreement, you then can transfer the ownership to the company or whoever needs that wire work. If you don't have that agreement, it's very difficult to claim ownership. And that's, you know, your logo, I think, is besides the name of your company is really important. And so a work for hire agreement is something that an attorney need not be involved in remotely, but you need to have have a first again, you wouldn't know who to have a work for our agreement with if you didn't trace out the journey. And so, you know, you look and it's like, blah, I have that logo. So how did who owns it? And really, that's that's that kind of exercise can be very, very enlightening. The same holds true with any any creation, like if you're working on, for examples, processes and system for the business. Well, that you know again, when you file it, the copyright office in the United States, the registry is not what you filed is not on it's not available to the public. So why not take a look at, wow, those are unique processes and systems. Maybe I should protect those in some way. I'm not saying it needs to be copyrighted necessarily, but maybe I have everyone put in my handbook and my employment handbook, that that's trade secret, you know. So there's so many prophylactics that you can do in your business without the need for help, but you have to spend some time on it. And again, that that gets back to, you know, is, is, do you have the time, you know, or could you be doing so? But that's, I think, those two things in in both copyright protection and making sure that you know you have a work for hire agreement and the trade secret like what you know we all have employees that come and go and so what do you want to make sure that no one takes what is the secret sauce to your business and protect those through making a big deal about it? It's no different than the Coca Cola formula. Coca Cola has never patented their, you know, formula for their coke. But, you know, they can sell it worldwide because they they created a process where, I think no one knows what the other is doing. You know, like somebody orders the I think there's probably cinnamon in it or something. You know, someone's a cinnamon vendor, and they know exactly how much cinnamon to order, and no one knows what that that's even going into the you know that. So creating processes like that are going to pay off very well, because it's that's like a crisis call that I get when, when, um, you know, someone left and sold, stole the um, the leads or something. You know it's like, but you never plan for it. So just again, deliberation, planning, working with your team, and then, you know, some of it is sensing danger. I don't know how to teach people that, but including my own staff sometimes. So you know sixth sense, but trust your gut. Okay.

Dave Barr  28:38

Now, one of the things I'm quite interested in is, I've tend to do business, not only locally, but internationally, and you feel quite well protected when you're dealing with businesses that are using, let's say, Western type legal systems, but when you go further afield, let's say it gets a bit more wild west. And you know, how good, how effective is the legal protections you put in place when it goes to, say, remote countries that aren't using what we would class as Western, Western style laws. You know the effective things we feel very comfortable about when it goes further afield, perhaps into the Far East or the Africas, etc. How effective are those same protections in those countries for you?

Steven Weigler  29:24

That's a really interesting question to start out, all countries, except some in South America and some that are we consider countries in crisis. You know not. There's no government, or it's, it's not an effective government have. We're connected through international protocols and treaties, both in patent, trademark, sometimes in contract, but it's very treaty based, and also copyright. So the key is, and a lot of these legal systems. Are much better and more effective than than you think. And so we all kind of, if you're involved in this area of law, you all kind of speak the same language, and we, which is a rewarding part of the practice, because I travel all over the world to build these relationships with with effective counsel in each of these jurisdictions. So it doesn't really matter to me if it's Vietnam, China, any of these places, because, again, we have a treaty, and we I have vetted connections that I've, you know, probably spent 10 years building and so and we're friends and we trust each other. Now, with that being said, no country, there's a lot of, you know, geopolitical, political issues and also local nuances in each one of these jurisdiction. And you learn it in international business. Like, if you took a class, you know, or you go to the Alliance for and say, you know, it's just, it's different. And so, like, sometimes you're baffled, like, wow, what just happened? Like, you know that that one happened in the States or Britain, you know, it just or Canada, you know, it just wouldn't go that way. And like, you know, you're like, wow, you know, I'm going to roll with this. But the point is, is so you need to, again, when you're tracing out your supply chain and tracing out your your customer journey, you have to really take the law of that particular jurisdiction seriously. So is China, which, again, in the US, at least a lot of the goods that we consume. And now it might be changing, although I can't see how that would happen, but that's not my area of expertise. But the point is, is we consume a ton of goods from China, and so we and if the goods are coming from China, and that's where they're branded, like, meaning the brands being put on, or the unique look and feel, well, we're going to get protection in China. It's, we have Chinese Counsel. She spends half her time in San Francisco. She's, um, she speaks English. Our initial consult with her is even free, and the prices are extremely low to get trademark protection or copyright protection in China. I think, you know, you would look at it like $1,000 or, you know, maybe 800 pounds every time. But that's, that's not very expensive, because we have the strategy mapped out, and then if we see infringement, we have protection in China. We've looked at the customer journey and done it. Chinese law is it's administrative, meaning there's not a huge amount of discretion given to each each judge or anything. And it's highly effective in Chinese law. But, and it's quick, but it's not, it's, it's, it's only about China. It's not, it's not if you sent over an American judgment, which I'm about to do, I don't think and it's going to go anywhere like so. So the point is, is, um, you really have to look at the local nuances and have somebody that knows experience counsel in those places to get you, number one, a good price. And number two, um, no exposure. We're taking action in a couple cases in China, and it's, again, it's not cheaper than it is in the United States, and I would argue, sometimes more effective. And you know, but then, then you go, look at India, and India is, again, a big exporter. It's, it's part of these treaties. The law makes more sense because it comes from the British common law, at least it makes more sense to me, but it's backed up for years, so you need a little bit of a different strategy, or to have different expectations on how you're going to handle it in a country like India and so, you know, you just kind of go again. It all goes back to the mapping and really taking into consideration that when you're most of us are going to procure goods and services from overseas. And you really have to look at the at what the laws are there. Understand that? Well, most of our laws are exactly the same, you know, and but you go into the French system, it's, it's a different kind of law. Again, I'm not sure I understand it sometimes, but the language we speak when it comes to intellectual property protection is the same. And I really could counsel in in France, again, it's the customs are a little different, but the it's just everything that's what's fascinating about I love that part of it. It's all different and the same. And everyone speaks English in my group, every call me and I will find you. It could be French Congo, and I'll find you an English speaking excellent attorney in that will explain the process in that place. 

Dave Barr  34:29

Great. That's really a real before I ask you my last question, can you share with the audience today where they can find out more about your company, where your social media hangouts are. Can you share those for us today?

Steven Weigler  34:44

Sure. So number one, I'm really big on LinkedIn, and again, the Empathetic Attorney is a LinkedIn newsletter. Please subscribe. That's a New Year's resolution, because I have a lot of connections on LinkedIn and followers, but I don't have a lot of I really want to increase my the work. that I'm trying to put out, which is attorneys do have were very social, social, emotional based and and think holistically to to make to for client success. So anyway, I'm really big on LinkedIn, but I offer initial consultations where I want to get to know you and your business at no cost. And you can find me at www.emergecounsel.com E, M, E, R, G, E, C, O, U N, S, E, L .com and if you want to just call and, you know, talk about your business and and what's going on with it, and some things you foresee in the future. A lot of times it it ends there, at least, I hope for the short term, because I'd love to build a business relationship with you. One thing I you know that's a bummer sometimes, is when you just have a transaction, you know, you're like, do a trademark, and you really like the business and you really like the business owner, but you know, they wanted a trademark, you did a trademark, and you really don't build that kind of customer journey. That's not, it's not that I don't mind the revenue, but it's, um, I, you know, it's not, I really, my goal is to try and build this kind of one off relationship, because you don't need to talk to an attorney all the time. In fact, the idea is rarely, but have a plan to so when we get to the point of M & A or or that you have an exitable company, I don't care if you want to sell it or you don't, but it should be clean and exitable. That on there on your journey. And so anyway, and there's a lot of resources, again, on the EmergeCounsel ℠ website, and you can see all the blogs and everything that I have.

Dave Barr  36:36

Brilliant. Thanks for sharing that. So my last question is, what do you what can you tell us about the latest innovations in international IP and copyright law, and how do you foresee the law changing in the next five to 10 years?

Steven Weigler  36:51

That's an outstanding question. Um, I it's a really, I just went to an international IP conference in London, and it was a it's a really strange time to ask that question, because at least the view of the incoming American president is that nothing's going to stay the same. And so, and, I mean, you know, and so we went through it with a noted economist. In fact, she was like, granddaughters of Keynes, and she actually lives in Britain. I was like, Wow. I didn't know he even had any offspring. But anyway, you know, like a famous economist, so anyway, um, you know, nothing's very predictable right now, and that that could be, it could bring benefit, although I'm not, I'm not the person to ask of how, um, but or it could be, you know, bring huge disruptions in into processes and procedures and protocols that that these countries have, and so a lot of it is even in the worst of times. It seems like we're countries when it comes to protection on intellectual property, despite what you read, act in good faith to try and at least the attorneys involved, to try and protect the intellectual property of of its own, of its citizens and and others, because that's commerce is everything. I think we all realize that no commerce, no no economy, and so it's, it's going to be interesting to see, because so many of the things that we thought were like, you know, entrenched in the however old the United States is, is not, according to this new upcoming president, might not be entrenched, and so it's a difficult question to answer right now, I think we're gonna have a be having a lot more seminars, and a lot more need to meet internationally and and figure this out. But I think right now, post COVID, the USPTO, which is a trademark Trademark Office in the cup, and the the patent office is fully staffed, and the the wait times are have gone back to normal. We'll see. It's a difficult question to answer, though, because, again, it's like I could have answered it like six months ago.

Dave Barr  39:04

Fabulous. Well, see, our time's come to an end. It's been fantastic talking to you today. Thank you very much for joining the podcast, and I hope everything goes well for you, and you have a wonderful holiday break. 

Steven Weigler  39:16

You too, a pleasure. Thanks, Dave. 

Dave Barr  39:18

So there's another Real Life Buyer podcast. I do hope you enjoyed it, and it has given you some ideas and inspiration for greater action and achievement. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss out on future episodes, and a five star review would be most appreciated if you would like to discover more about me and w