Hey guys and welcome back to another episode of Change Wired Podcast. My name is Angela Shurina. I'm your host, your partner in change your culture, transformation and change leadership consultant. Also executive leadership coach, fueled by behavioral science insights and methodology, science, insights and methodology. And today we have another absolutely amazing guest that you're going to love hearing from Scott Young, a guest who spent the career at the intersection of human behavior and business transformation. Scott Young is on a mission to help leaders apply behavioral science ethically and effectively. What makes Scott fascinating isn't just his resume, and what's on Scott's resume is leading global research firms advising Fortune 500 companies, working with some of the greatest behavioral science teams like Behavioral Insights Team and BVA Nudge Consulting. Now also, scott teaches at places like London School of Economics, upenn and Chicago Booth. Scott is also fascinating because of the mission he's on to bridge the gap between behavioral science and the business world, to help leaders close that all-important intent-action gap, where people don't just say things. They'll do something. Because they say those things, they change their behavior and do so consistently, and because of that, results follow. Scott is on the mission to show executives that culture isn't about some lofty values, big words and things we aspire to be, but it's more so about everyday, repeatable behaviors that shape results and business impact.
Speaker 1In this conversation, scott and I dive into why companies over-rely on communication and financial incentives and what actually drives consistent change. We're going to talk about simple frameworks from behavioral science, like COMBI and EAST, and how they can help leaders design better systems and environments where what's desired, what's strategized, is also executed, bringing desired results. We're going to talk about hidden power of reducing confusion and creating psychological safety in the workplace to accelerate innovation, adaptability, adoption of new technologies and tools like AI. We're going to talk about how leaders can build a behavioral lens into their leadership and business toolkit, not to replace other things or replace strategy, but to make execution stick, become consistent and drive the results that leaders strategize about. The results that leaders strategize about.
Speaker 1If you ever wondered why good intentions in companies or for you personally don't turn into consistent action, or how to nudge yourself and culture other people forward without waiting for years for yourself or people to change, so this episode is full of practical insights that you can start using today to start seeing shift, change and results tomorrow. So let's dive in, let's get wired for change with Scott Young. Thank you, scott, for joining Change Wired podcast and dedicating some of your precious time that nobody gets more of to sharing your wisdom, your insights, your experience, your work with leaders who want to make a change, who want to create more positive impact, want to create more business results and see behavioral science as a tool to be able to do that better. So thank you so much and welcome to Change your World podcast.
Speaker 2Thanks so much, Angela. It's really a pleasure to be here and I certainly hope there's at least some kernels of wisdom that we can share or discuss together that will be helpful for people.
Speaker 1Yeah, and you are so modest, I guess, and humble, because you've done so much work working with some of the biggest behavioral science organizations in the world and you also did quite a lot of work in business world applying behavioral science. You know in bits and pieces and more and more as you progressed, and seems, on your journey. So what I'm saying is you have a lot, a lot of value to contribute and I'm just hoping to be able to get some of it out with good questions, I guess.
Speaker 2Thank you, that's very kind of you, and again, certainly we'll try our best.
Speaker 1Yes, Maybe to give our listeners a little bit more background. Where did you start your journey as relation to where you are today, I guess? How did you land on using behavioral science in the world, trying to help leaders and organizations to achieve the impact that they want to achieve?
Sure, I guess if I'm going to simplify it, I'd say it's been kind of a three-step journey for me. The majority of my career I was leading an insights agency doing shopper and packaging research for many of the big consumer marketers the Procter Gamble's and Unilever's and Kraft Foods of the world no-transcript to understand some of these gaps and so forth. And long story short, you know, circumstances came together that I ended up making a career transition ultimately from kind of applying behavioral tools in insights and research to actually applying behavioral science more broadly across a lot of different business issues and challenges. So I spent about eight years or so at two organizations, one BVA, nudge Consulting, and then later at the Behavioral Insights Team or BIT.
Speaker 2And really the commonality for me there was that I was primarily working with businesses, with private sector organizations, though the range of issues and sectors varied tremendously, you know, from healthcare one day to technology the next day, to transport or financial services the third day, and also very much differ from end user or consumer type issues to internal or employee or management issues as well.
Speaker 2So that was a really interesting transition for me. And then the last year or so I've kind of evolved away from working for an individual consultancy really towards this larger mission of kind of trying to serve as a bridge between behavioral science world and the business world. You know, on one side, helping business people ideally embrace and apply some of the learnings and insights from behavioral science in what they do, you know, whether that's human resources or compliance, or insights or marketing, and then on the other side, really trying to help behavioral scientists understand some of the dynamics of the business world so that they can be effective in that context, which is obviously a very different context than perhaps more academic research or longer-term government policy-related work as well.
Again such a wide range of it seems like challenges and sectors that you've worked with, and I'm just trying to figure out where to even approach such a vast experience. Maybe let's start. You mentioned somewhere that you wanted to be, as you just described, bridge between business world and behavioral science world and you started describing this. I guess my first question is in terms of business applying behavioral science where do you see unique value of behavioral science when it comes to solving different business challenges? Let's say, some challenges are obviously external, whether that's changing certain things about customer behavior, and some things are internal changing culture or some issues with, again, compliance, hr, et cetera. So maybe let's start with first where do you see behavioral science? Has this like unique value to help businesses solve different challenges?
Speaker 2Sure, Well, if you don't mind, I guess I'll start a little bit with the challenges themselves and then hopefully get to where I see the unique value.
Speaker 2I think you know most of my career was indeed, you know, looking focusing on consumers or shoppers or end users, but I will say that I think the longer I've been involved in the applied behavioral science world, the more interested and excited and optimistic I am about internal employee behaviors or organizational cultural issues, employee behaviors or organizational cultural issues, and I guess the reason I say that is that you just have so many more potential levers and points of communication and touch points with your own employees.
Speaker 2You know, from incentive systems to internal communication, to processes, systems to internal communication, to processes, to physical environment or digital environment that you know. I guess I come to the conclusion that you know, if you can't influence the behavior or positively influence the behavior of your own employees, you know what likelihood do you have to do that to end users, who spend a fraction of their time with you and thinking about you and your products and services. So obviously, both. I think there's potential value, obviously in a multitude of issues. But again, if I have to choose in terms of where do I see the greatest opportunities. I guess I see them somewhat more internally actually, and those are some of the projects I've been most excited about recently, you know, in areas like compliance, cybersecurity internal issues around everything really, from employee retention to productivity to teamwork.
Speaker 2Again, I think there's just more points of contact and more opportunity. But to speak to maybe the larger question you asked what's unique about behavioral science? I mean, I think we could all probably ramble for quite a while on this, but if I have to boil it down, I think the real sweet spot, the area where we can have the most impact, is indeed in thinking about helping bridge that intent to action gap. So situations where people would truly like to do the right thing quote unquote yeah, but you know human nature and life get in the way. But you know human nature and life get in the way.
Speaker 2So compliance to me, you know, or cybersecurity, is a nice example of that, in that, you know, most people would nod their head and say sure, you know, I don't want to put information at risk, I want to do the right things. They're not looking to circumvent, but again, the intent is positive. We don't need to convince them as much as we need to help them and facilitate and essentially make the right path the easier path for them to follow. So I always look for those situations as though, where I feel like it's the lowest hanging fruit, so to speak, and that a lot of our tools and methods can perhaps be most effective. I hope that's helpful.
Speaker 1Yes, and you know, speaking of, for example, cybersecurity or compliance. Where do you see I guess leaders tend to get a drone trying to solve these issues. And where do you see I guess leaders tend to get a drone trying to solve these issues. And where do you see like behavioral science can help them to avoid those issues or deal with them better?
Speaker 2Sure.
Speaker 2Well, again, I don't mean to singularly stick with cybersecurity, but if we use that as an example, you know, I think the common trap well is maybe twofold.
Speaker 2I think trap well is maybe twofold, I think one to think that you know that technology is the answer in and of itself and that you know it's just finding the right technology and we're going to to be there without recognizing or acknowledging that. You know the real problem is almost always human risk, right, the fact that people may have wonderful tools available but they're not using them. Challenge particularly related to that area is that you know you've got people making the rules and developing the procedures and so forth that are very knowledgeable and very aware and you know it's second nature to them and it's very hard for those folks to take on the perspective of someone who is less comfortable and less familiar and more likely to be frustrated or flustered. You know as hard as they try and they may have very positive intent it's just hard for you, if you're very knowledgeable at something, to develop a tool that works well for someone who is not.
Speaker 2You know who is not like that he's not like you, but but again, I think you could draw a pretty similar parallel perhaps to hr issues and compensation, where, you know, maybe it's not a technical solution but people think, oh, if we just optimize our incentive structures, you know we get the right bonus system in place that will solve every problem. Without recognizing in that case that you know people will tell you that that's what matters to them in many cases. But the reality is a lot of what matters is what's immediate and what's in front of them and getting you know the immediate positive or negative feedback that they get, the immediate reward that they get, is often much stronger than something that's a year away. You know, at the end of the year I'll be rewarded.
So what I hear? I guess it's just not maybe spending enough time to understand how human nature works I don't know psychology, how human behavior works in general and just thinking that systems first functions first, sort of assuming that humans are these rational agents who just do the logical things, when we know well, well, you know somebody who studies behavioral science or knows anything about psychology that that is not the the, the truth, this state of reality.
Speaker 2I think that's fair. I think we, we kind of default to, you know a rational model as fully explaining, you know, human behavior. When you know, in in our own minds, we know, of course, that that's part of the solution, of course, but it's not always, it doesn't tell the full story. And you know again, as humans, we're very, very subject to, you know, immediate stimuli, as I was mentioning. You know immediate feedback loops, and also to social norms. You know what we see other people doing, etc. So, yeah, I think that's that's a lot of what's going on.
Speaker 2And one point that I'd make and I may have alluded to quickly, is that one of the problems is, you know, if we ask people questions and this is what I saw a lot in my research days, my insights days unfortunately they'll often kind of reinforce the wrong, misleading things. In other words, you ask people what matters to them, they're going to say, oh, what matters is my bonus, what matters is my vacation, what matters is, et cetera, very rational things and they're certainly not lying to us. You know, they're saying what they're conscious of. But, again, what they're less likely to articulate are a lot of the things that behavioral science teaches us about. You know again some of what's easy and what's immediate and what makes me smile, even if it's not a financial reward. You know things of that nature. So I think a lot of this is again just being a little careful about not being not taking too literally some of what we get when we ask people questions, unfortunately.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's like you know asking people about do you care about healthy eating, how? Or fitness, and like, yes, I do, and then I end up watching I don't know Netflix, eating a ton of ice cream and not really moving much.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly there's a socially correct. You know there's social correct answers as well, but again, even I think in most cases people are not lying. What they're articulating, though, is intent.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2They're not articulating. You know, we still have that intent to action gap, whether it's in individual behaviors, but also in employee behaviors as well, you know, collaborating with my colleagues, etc. So I think one thing I've learned is, you know, it's not that we should ignore what people tell us or not speak with them, but I think we do have to be pretty careful, the kinds of questions we ask, and I think we also have to maybe place greater emphasis on observing behaviors and processes and getting at some of the things that are unarticulated. So I you know, the longer I do this, the more I believe in ethnographic or observational research, not with 1000s of people, but often, you know, with eight or 10 people we can start to see some trends and see what's getting in the way.
Speaker 1perhaps yes, it's, you know, I read it somewhere also like if you want people to really give you feedback about your product or something, give them to men, ask them to try it out and begin views, and observation is so much more than talking about this. You know the thing, the product or of people's behavior.
Speaker 2Yeah, kind of observe first, ask questions later, so to speak, rather than jumping into that or putting too much emphasis on what people say they want. You know it's a starting point, but it's only a starting point.
Speaker 1Yes, exactly, and perhaps if you could share some of the tools that you use to address those issues, like whether that's helping companies to maybe roll out better technology or solve some cybersecurity or compliance issues, like experiences that you have, what are some tools, strategies that you use to address some of these issues?
Speaker 2Well, you know I may be a little different than some behavioral scientists on this because you know a lot of them like to create new tools or you know they're looking for the more sophisticated tools, etc. And I actually come at it from a very different perspective in the sense that I'm a real fan of some of the simpler tools that are there. You know very much in the public domain very, and the reason is that I think a lot of what I'm trying to do in most cases is get people excited and get them started to apply things to their own problems. So you know a lot of what I do is not necessarily saying you know, give me a problem and I'll go away and come back in a month with a bunch of answers. It's, you know, I want to essentially upskill folks and get them thinking this way. So that's a long-winded way of saying you know, I use tools like ComBee, right, you know, very simple but I think, very powerful in getting folks to think more broadly about the potential barriers or the potential reasons somebody is not doing something. I think if we're marketers selling a product, and particularly if we're senior managers or leaders thinking about employees and our team members and what they're doing. It's just very easy to jump to a singular answer and say, oh, they're lazy, oh they're not being paid enough, you know, for this or whatever it may be, and I think in many cases the answers are more nuanced than that.
Speaker 2You know, sure, there may be some people who are held up by, you know, by one thing, but there may be other people who are held back by confusion, you know, and that's in many cases an easier thing to solve, right, you know? Then, changing the pricing structure of something or the incentive structure in an organization. So, you know, I think that's an easy one, or relatively easy one, for people to grasp and, if nothing else, it can start them thinking more broadly and saying, wow, you know, maybe, maybe there's ten different reasons people aren't doing this and I can't solve all of them, but I could solve three or four of them and that might make a difference with 20% of the people, and that's a lot, you know, 10% of the people. So that's one model I often try to use, just again, to get people thinking more broadly. And then you know, a second one and again it's not a very complicated one is I do use the EAST framework a lot.
Speaker 2You know when we start to think about potential interventions or solutions. And you know, again, very you know. The beauty of it is that it is relatively simple and you can start to pretty easily share examples around. You know what's an example of making something easier. What's an example of making something you know attractive, appealing or compelling. What's an example of a timely intervention, a socially based you know, socially, social norms based intervention.
Speaker 2So, again, these are clearly not the most sophisticated models in the world, but I think their power lies in their ability to, in people's ability to grasp them and start applying them to their own problems and challenges. And you know, the role I like to play and I think we can play, is kind of coaching rather than doing so. You know, having a leader or team brainstorm together with these frameworks, and then you're there to help them and support them and answer questions and maybe point them towards some examples that have worked elsewhere.
Speaker 1Yeah, thank you for sharing these models and just this idea that, instead of giving answers, it's more about changing leadership, thinking and mindset around, like where the problem can originate from and what's maybe a different way of approaching that from the behavioral science point of view.
Speaker 2Exactly. You know, I'm sure you've heard this before, but you know the idea of kind of a behavioral science lens, for lack of a better term. I I do think that's good an analogy, as you know, as I have about it, which is, you know, basically what we're trying to do is give people an additional, I think, incremental way of looking at their problems, their challenges or their opportunities. And I try to emphasize, you know, a few things. One, this is indeed incremental. It's not I'm not here to tell you that everything you've been doing is wrong. Or, you know, a rational model of human behavior is stupid, or something like that. Of course there's reality and truth to a lot of these tools. Or you know, a rational model of human behavior is stupid, or something like that. Of course there's reality and truth to a lot of these tools. But I'm trying to say, hey, there's an additional way, you know, an extra dimension, and this dimension may point you towards some different kinds of solutions that could complement what you're doing.
Speaker 1Yes, and you know, once a leader can see that there is additional toolkit, additional reasons for certain behaviors or certain issues, then they can try out different things right, different methodology or like piloting different initiatives, which then you know, you can observe if things improve or things don't improve, and then can make conclusions or create different model of solving problems. I guess it's just it's additional toolkit of solving different problems and issues that a lot of leaders just not taught to just think and use.
Speaker 2Yes, I think that's fair. You know it's another tool or another. You know another tool in the toolkit or another way of addressing things, and though it's interesting, as you were, you know, as you're talking about that, I think sometimes the barrier is that people are resistant to testing and learning, is that?
Speaker 2people are resistant to testing and learning, and that varies a little bit by culture, I think, by organization. There are some organizations where it is very much test and learn mentality and failure is not viewed negatively, but there are other organizations where that's not comfortable for people and that's difficult. So I've been doing some work, actually with some others, an article coming out in the near future about basically the idea of creating what I'd call behaviorally formed executives, you know, executives that are not behavioral scientists but have kind of the core base of tools or mindset, and one of those tools is indeed this idea of a experimentation mentality. And again, that's not everyone. That's a learned skill as well and, I think, again influenced a lot by the culture in which people are working.
Speaker 1Yes, just like you know, everything else is influenced by the culture, and that's, I think, also the whole idea of behavioral science that a human being, our behavior, is always in the context of something and that you behave or think the way your people behave and think the way they do because of the environment where they're in.
Speaker 1And also, you know, speaking about just creating executives or leaders who are more behaviorally minded, I think it reminds me of this fact in general, like, when you become a leader, you need to develop a toolkit which consists of many different skill sets. For example, if you're a leader, you need to get better at communication. It might not be your natural strengths and you you need to get better at communication. It might not be your natural strengths and you don't need to become an expert in communication, but you need to some degree, to have ability to communicate certain things initiatives, right To just shape culture and delegate, et cetera. So for me, having behavioral sciences one of those skill sets is kind of the same. Like, if you are a leader, you need to understand that because you work with human beings who do need to perform a lot of behaviors to make organization work.
Speaker 2Oh, definitely, and you know well a couple of different issues that I think are that come up there.
Speaker 2You know, I think one challenge with some business leaders I think a little more on the marketing side sometimes than other side is they you know, they've read a book and they think they know behavioral science and then they're eager to run off and apply, but you know they're applying bits and pieces in a sporadic manner and that's a challenge.
Speaker 2I mean, it's a tough one in the sense that sometimes I think behavioral scientists are coming at it from a very opposite perspective of you know you need to do it perfectly and you know randomized, controlled trials, et cetera, which simply isn't realistic in most business environments. So you know, I think part of the art of applying this in the business world is kind of finding the right middle ground. You know where can we kind of influence and hopefully have enough rigor? So you know that we feel like we're truly learning and not just throwing, you know, heuristics and such out there randomly, but on the other hand, adopting, applying this in a way that's realistic, because we're not going to ask companies to stop and spend a year and wait just to learn massive studies in order to move forward.
Speaker 2So that's a tricky balancing act and I think it varies a little bit by sector as well.
Do you feel like AI can help with that applying behavioral science and other methodologies in the business setting or any setting really Like what I'm thinking about, right? Or when I talk to leaders, I'm like, well, now that you know that this thing exists, why don't you ask your AI agent, or whatever AI technology you use, how to apply what you just learned in your specific setting? What do you think about this AI now helping behavioral scientists or behavioral science-minded executives to implement it better?
Speaker 2Wow find it executives to implement it better. Wow, well, I guess a couple of different things, and I'm not sure if it'll directly answer your question, and I guess I'd start with a caveat that you know I don't view myself as the expert in that area. There are some people that are really at the cutting edge of the intersection of behavioral science and an AI that I think are doing great pioneering work there, people like Sam Seltzer, antoine Ferrer and others. With that said, I guess I see two or three things going on. On the one hand, I'm definitely, at the core, optimistic. I think AI, among other things, can help us develop more customized solutions.
Speaker 2I felt like historically, to some degree, this field and I think other fields were more limited by the idea that, hey, we only have the capacity to create so many things.
Speaker 2So at the end of the day, we're going to kind of throw these ideas out there with the full world of people, employees, customers, whatever it may be, partners and you know, we know that it's going to only have an impact on 5% of the people, maybe, and you know, we'll declare victory, whereas now I do believe you know, between the intersection of data science and the ability to more precisely target and understand behaviors and barriers, and also AI and the capacity to just create so much content and specific customized interventions.
Speaker 2There's really a better chance to have a different approach to things, where you know, if we can identify this subgroup that has this barrier, we can provide this kind of customized intervention and message that's more likely to be effective with them. And then a different subgroup, a different message, etc. And completely oversimplifying, but I feel like the capacity to do that is going to expand enormously, which is great. So that's kind of one big positive in my mind, I think. The second you know, the big negative or hurdle I guess I would say I think is going to be adoption, especially employee adoption, be adoption, especially employee adoption.
Speaker 2A lot of the issues and challenges I'm hearing from organizations are hey, we have this wonderful new AI-driven tool, but our brokers, our client, support people, whatever they're not really embracing it or they're reluctant to use it. Whatever they're not really embracing it or they're reluctant to use it. You know, and I think you have two barriers. I mean obviously you may have more than two, but I mean you have two immediate barriers that come to mind. Right, one is look, um, you know, technology is difficult, no matter what right people. You know, some people are more comfortable than others.
Speaker 2There's human resistance to change. You know, it doesn't matter. There's always going to be problems with people adopting and using new tools, but then, in this case, you've got a whole other layer of people feeling threatened by those tools. You know, great, you want me to use this and it's ultimately going to replace me in one organizations about kind of redefining the relationship of humans and AI tools and, I think, in many cases, showing the humans the path forward and giving them the comfort that they need to truly embrace and capitalize on some of the things that are available. You know, unless you truly have a model of let's get rid of all of our people and replace, you know, if that's the model, I mean, I think there's larger issues going on societally.
Speaker 2But you know, I think that's a scary model, at least in the short term, because I do think you know there's a lot of issues both internally and externally with customers that you still need, at least for the near foreseeable future. You need human beings to understand and interpret and apply properly. So I hope I made sense there. But you know I see that as a huge challenge. Otherwise I think you're going to get a lot of wasted energy on, you know, essentially developing tools that aren't used properly or fully, or maybe in some cases, automating the wrong things. You know as well, right Automating things that shouldn't have, that don't need to happen.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2It's a larger related issue.
Speaker 1I think that don't need to happen, which is a larger related issue. I think and you know, speaking of these challenges, resistance, fear have you worked with some of these issues? Do you maybe have ideas of how, to how leaders can approach these barriers to embrace more AI technology where it makes sense?
Speaker 2Well, I think two things come to mind, I think, if I'm going to speak generally.
Speaker 2I think confusion of any kind serves as a much bigger barrier than we think it does.
Speaker 2You know, to me, in my experience across a lot of different sectors and companies, you know, the moment people get confused about anything, any little element, they use it as an off ramp. You know it's an excuse, whether it's conscious or subconscious, it's kind of an excuse to not do something. That's uncomfortable, right, yeah, and in some places and situations people also have, you know, they lack the safety, the psychological safety or whatever you want to call it to raise their hand and say I don't understand this. So they're not necessarily going to tell you, they're going to just simply not do what you want them to do and hope it doesn't get noticed. Versus, you know, raising their hand and saying, well, this new thing is confusing to me, I don't understand what to do here, there and the other thing.
Speaker 2So I think energy spent really truly understanding those barriers and that confusion is is really really time well spent if you want to get people, you know, if you want to move people from A to B in in almost any situation. So that that was. That's kind of the top of mind thing that comes to mind in terms of where I think maybe sometimes we take it for granted, but we really need to do more.
Speaker 1Yeah, you know you started speaking about this aspect of psychological safety, for example, for people to even feel comfortable to, I don't know, make mistakes or raise concern about their confusion or just maybe not understanding something. Have you worked on some projects or do you have some experience, suggestions for leaders how to maybe shift culture, like if they know that that might be the issue? Maybe they did assessments and studies and know that, for example, psychological safety is low right and that can be affecting a lot of these things like adoption technology? Are there any tools in toxic from behavioral side that they sense that they can employ to make a shift towards more, for example, psychological safety, etc.
Yeah, well, I think the biggest point that I'd make there is kind of almost reversing the model that I think most of us have in our minds, which is, you know, there's this top level of culture and then you know, if we establish the right culture and the right you know principles, then the right behaviors will follow. Behaviors will follow and that sounds logical. I mean, you know, in theory it makes sense. But I think the problem is often that leads to these very vague statements about culture. You know, we're a caring organization, we're supportive of each other. You know, whatever it may be, which are well intentioned. You know I'm not trying to say they're all.
Speaker 2BS or anything. I think, when I talk about reversing the model, what I think we almost need to do a more bottom-up approach that's driven on specific behaviors and say, if we want to be a collaborative organization, these are the five behaviors that constitute what collaborative means in this context.
Speaker 2And these are the five behaviors or whatever it may be we want our people and our teams to do regularly, and they may be very mundane, they may be saying thank you, following up, whatever it is but I think that's a level that you can have impact, because you can find ways to reinforce those behaviors and remind people and give them smiley faces and rewards or whatever it may be smiley faces and rewards or whatever it may be and then work upward from there, so to speak. And I think there's a lot of evidence as well that, like when people do things that when they, you know, like when they recycle, they can start to care more about and they start to view themselves as people who care more about the environment, for example. So apologize, it might be a slightly long-winded way of saying, I really think we need to work upward from specific behaviors and do some of the hard work of defining behaviors that are expected that add up to the things that we care about, these values and this culture, because otherwise, I think what ends up happening is, you know, we agree on very vague notions of culture and we nod our heads and smile, and you know, and then nothing happens because it's very amorphous. You know, oh, we're collaborative culture of mergers and acquisitions, and you know, culture, companies and cultures coming together. I'd give that same advice. You know they come.
Speaker 2You know, leaders often like to start the top down 30,000 feet. But I think you need someone to kind of go from the ground up and say this is how we're going to interact with each other, this what's expected, this is what's rewarded and valued. And you know, in, in, at a level that everybody can understand. You know, every time I submit something, this is what I do. Every time I have a meeting, this is what I do. Every time I talk with a customer, this is what I do, and that's how you start to create a common culture.
Speaker 1Yes, and I'm so just happy to hear that because that's what also, like in my work, I'm trying to preach and promote and, you know, create different case studies around that. There is this not saying, but example that I think it's from research literature that if you want the person to like you, ask them to help you Like, for example. The more the person helps you, the more they start believing that they actually like you, because otherwise why would they help you, right?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think there's a lot of parallels to that. Right, get them doing the right thing, quote unquote. And then attitudes and beliefs kind of align with that versus you know, the classic model of you know, first let's win their minds and hearts and then, you know, behavior will automatically follow. And the reality is behavior doesn't automatically follow, not because people don't care or want to, but sometimes it's very amorphous what the right behavior is, and other times habits and you know habits and familiarity patterns get in the way.
Speaker 1Yes, and I do also believe that people become in what we habitually do. And if you want yes, and it's just confirmed by so much like research and case studies and just day-to-day lives of people right, if you want to I don't know become a kind person, then just act kindly. I also, you know, when I work with leaders, they sometimes say well, on assessments. I'm not as empathetic as I'd like to be, but I think that I am right. I'm not sure why did that come up? I'm like well, when you talk to people, how often do you ask them their opinion first, right, their take on things first, like how does it land with them? How does it feel? And you very often find that the behavior does not follow. And so what ends up happening? Yes, they'd like to be that, but behavior doesn't follow and therefore they're not that person.
Speaker 2Yeah, and in that case I think, defining empathy, you know you and I might define empathy somewhat differently, but I think the important thing is to kind of come up with some behaviorally based definition of it and say, hey, you know, these are the again the five things or whatever it may be, that kind of add up to empathy, Because you know, as per your example, you know my definition of I think I'm empathetic might not be your definition of I think I'm empathetic might not be your definition. So the more we can get there and that's hard work, because I think a lot of leaders are very comfortable at this high level of you know, again, collaboration, empathy, customer centricity and whatever big terms, and they mean it and they're well intentioned, but again you get that confusion when it filters into what do I actually do? So you know, working from the bottom up that's what I a lot about I've learned, I think, from behavioral science define the behaviors and then you know, focus on those behaviors and then that will, that will lead ultimately to what we're looking to accomplish.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think it also makes sense because at the end, like, no matter what we think, the only thing that changes things in the real world is what we do, right.
Speaker 2Yeah, very fair point, exactly.
Speaker 1That's where I also feel like behavioral science is so powerful, because it helps to promote the behavior, not like trying to change some concepts or thinking, but actual things that create results in real world.
Speaker 2Yes, and that's a lot of what I find very attractive and appealing and compelling about it is that you know, at the end of the day, hopefully we're really driving specific. It is that you know, at the end of the day, hopefully we're really driving specific, measurable behavioral changes. And you know, I think the more we can engage with organizations, you know, the more, the more we can help them move in that direction and also, hopefully, we can shape the kinds of behavior changes that they're trying to drive. And again, that's where I kind of circle back to this principle of, you know, closing intent to action gaps and thinking less about, you know, let's convince somebody about what they should believe or what they should do.
Speaker 2And more like, let's start with situations where people want to do something. They want to eat healthier. They want to. You know, they want to speak up when they see something wrong. They want to be more environmentally conscious. They want to eat healthier. They want to. You know, they want to speak up when they see something wrong. They want to be more environmentally conscious. They want to be healthier, whatever it may be. And then help find ways to help them accomplish that, you know, making it easier, leveraging some of these other tools that we have in our toolkit.
Yeah, and speaking of that, you know, making it easier, giving people tools. I think I'd like to ask you this question around very often, leaders and you know, also people in government very often fall into that. I think maybe many of us fall into that, like we think that communication is the key, just like, I don't know, tell someone to do thing or make people aware or shout it louder, about it louder, and people will just do the thing. Where you know, I I in my profession have learned to believe that environment and what makes things easier is so much more powerful and incentivizing the right behaviors All these non-communication tools are so much more powerful for changing people's behavior. I guess my question is what did you find in your experience, in your practice working in so many organizations and in so many levels, what works the best? Is communication, as powerful as some people believe, not like what works better?
Speaker 2No, I'd agree with, I think, the premise you were conveying, which is I mean, obviously it depends a little on the situation and I'm not going to say communication doesn't matter. But I would say, in many of these cases, particularly when people have positive intent, you know so, you're not, you're not about convincing them that something matters, but but helping them actually act on it, I think it's much more. The timeliness of the communication is the most, is arguably as or more important than than the communication itself, if that makes sense. In other words, you know I don't need a lecture about, you know that cybersecurity is important and I should, you know, do something.
Speaker 2I need a reminder at the moment that I'm making a decision, you know, or going through a process, so you know, know, often it's less about crafting a gorgeous manifesto and and you know five paragraph email to people about why something matters, because they're just going to nod their head and agree, and more about looking at processes and systems and environments and finding the right ways to remind them of it when it matters, so that you know. That's where I would go. And I guess the other point maybe related to what you're saying is I do think, in business in particular, I think processes have a ton of power as well. You know you building a message or a pause or something into a process. You know whatever that may be a meeting process, training process. You know how we do our design briefs or whatever. I think that's incredibly powerful. So you could call that communication or you could call it more. You know the other, but I think that's important.
Speaker 2And then sometimes you know you also have opportunities to build these reminders into environments. You know whether it's a physical environment when my computer boots up and I'm signing in and doing something, or a physical environment if I'm in an office, you know, just to remind me about, about whatever it is that I need to be reminded. So, again, maybe long winded, but I'm basically agreeing. I think, if anything, we kind of make two, two mistakes as leaders One, I think, jumping to this conclusion. That One, I think, jumping to this conclusion that you know, people need to be convinced or informed, where in many cases that's not what's missing, that's not what's getting in the way. And then, number two, thinking if I just get the words right and I just write it a little more eloquently and beautifully, that will make the difference, Whereas, again, it's probably more about the timeliness of the communication than its beauty and eloquence and the wording.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's more about the systems where the action or behavior happens or supposed to happen. Yeah, such powerful insights. I believe that's where leaders need to start Just start thinking more about what's around people in the moment of decision or when they need to take action, and start thinking in those terms, not so much about perfect communication, and also just be more behaviorally aware. I guess, when trying to implement different initiatives in the organization, whether that's facing customer or internally.
Speaker 2Yeah, and that's where, again, even just having a few relatively simple tools in mind, kind of this behavioral lens and this idea of thinking a little more broadly whether that's ComBee or a different model about barriers and reasons why people may not be doing what we think they should be or what they say they want to be doing To kind of help give us a new set of tools and say, okay, you know, maybe we do need to change our incentive system, but we might also have, there might be other ways to drive people in the right direction, you know. So you're just kind of making sure you're getting. If it's not in your own head as a leader, you've got someone there that you're checking in with and may give you this additional perspective on a regular basis.
Speaker 1Yes, thank you so much, scott, for sharing all these amazing insights and methodologies ways of applying behavioral science in business to make business more effective and create more positive impact. I guess the last question before we jump off is where could listeners go to learn more about your work and maybe, additionally, if you have a place for them to where to start maybe exploring different behavioral science options as applied to business?
Speaker 2Sure, well, as for me, I publish a lot of. I publish in a variety of different places and when I say publish, you know a few of them are more academic, formal, but a lot of them are three-page, you know, hopefully more accessible stuff. You can find a good deal of that under my Medium account. So if you just Google Scott Young and Medium, you should be able to find me Behavioral.
Speaker 1Science. Yeah, we're going to link it.
Speaker 2Okay, great. And then also through my LinkedIn, you'll also find a good number of articles In terms of where to start. Beyond that, I'm part of an organization called BESCY.
Speaker 1It's.
B-E-S-C-Y dot O-R-G. It's a nonprofit global organization that is. Really. The main focus is to introduce people to the world of behavioral science and to connect people with an interest in the field, whether they're, you know, more sophisticated practitioners or students and so forth. So there are local chapters in some cities, but then there's also some global virtual you know meetups. I do one for practitioners group. There are others that are focused on things like sustainability or systems and so forth. So I would really encourage folks to go there just to kind of connect with this field and maybe get pointed in the right direction towards other things. And then, of course, many of the leading consultancies, whether it's Behavioral Insights Team or Ideas 42 or many others.
Speaker 2There's a lot of great content out there in those websites, and there's a lot of great content out there in those websites and there's a lot of great podcasts, including this one, out there as well. So, you know, depending on what people are interested in, I think one great thing about this field is that people are very generous in sharing, and I try my best to follow that model as well.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's what I found. And thank you, scott, again, for all these recommendations, insight, experience, your time and your work so very appreciative. And, yeah, keep up great work and we'll all follow it closely. And again, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2Thank you, it was really my pleasure. I hope there's some good nuggets and I'm really happy to speak to folks individually if they ever want some follow-up, so they shouldn't hesitate to do that.
Speaker 1Yes, we'll link everything yes In the show notes. And again, thank you, scott, for your time. All right, take care. Bye, thank you.