Welcome to Change Wired Podcast. The podcast where we explore what it takes to lead and grow and unlock more of our personal and collective potential for more positive impact in the world that's constantly evolving. My name is Angela Shorina. I'm your host, your partner in change. And today I'm very excited to welcome you to this very special episode. It's with someone who's who I've been admiring from far apart for quite a while, who's my unofficial mentor for my work and the impact I want to create in the world. Chief Heart Officer Claude Silver, who leads people and culture across Gary Weinerchuk's companies. And she just released her first book, Be Yourself at Work, The groundbreaking power of showing up, standing out, and leading from the heart. I read the book a little bit in advance, which I feel so very unlucky about. And it's one of those books that makes you exhale with relief and hope and inspiration. It reminds you that leadership doesn't have to be armor or perfection and hardness. It can mean heart, honesty, and the courage to be fully yourself, even in spaces that weren't built for that, seemingly, like workplaces. In our conversation, Claude and I talk about what it really means to belong in the workplace, not just fit in. How emotional optimism, bravery, and efficiency create trust and speed and productivity and a place for human potential to thrive and grow. We'll talk about how the most powerful leaders are the ones who stay calm, consistent, and also incredibly human. We'll talk about practical tools that Claude uses in her work that help leaders build real connection and culture of inspiration, of support, of human thriving. So if you ever felt uh the pressure to shrink, to play a role, or to leave a part of yourself outside the door at work, this episode is your permission sleep to bring it all in. Here is my conversation with the world's first chief heart officer, Claude Silver, on being yourself at work and why that's not just good for people, but also great for business. So please grab something hot and heartwarming and enjoy our heart-filling conversation with Claude Silver. Wow. I'm based in Cape Town, so the South Africa is where I live now. But yeah, I'm originally from here, so I'm visiting my parents during summer.
SPEAKER_02How interesting. I just my last call was with a South African. It's just funny when that happens, like out of the blue. You know, sometimes there's synchronicity. Yes. Have you been to South Africa yet? No, I'm dying to go.
SPEAKER_00Yes, please do go. Uh, it's uh especially Cape Town, uh one-of-a-kind place. I have my personal description for Cape Town, is where skies touch the ground. And it feels like it's not just literally true where clouds go so low that they touch the ground, but also since I came there, I always felt like that's where dreams have the most opportunity, I don't know, the most power to come true faster. That's how I always felt there.
SPEAKER_02I love that. And you couldn't have picked a more opposite geography, no?
SPEAKER_00Yes, actually, especially considering that I'm from Siberia, so it's very north, yeah, uh northern part.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Oh my god, I have chills. I just love that idea. I love, I love it, I love it, I love it. Oh gosh, amazing. Excuse me. Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_00Yes, uh, thank you so much for uh finding the time and for making the time and uh writing the book. And if you don't mind, let's just jump into this conversation. Yeah, uh so yeah, thank you so much, Claude, again, for joining ChangeWide Podcast. Uh, this celebration of your new book, Be Yourself at Work. I just finished it a day ago, and I I don't know, it just gave me so much optimism and inside happiness. I'm just glad that uh you know this book exists, and I feel like that would represents the uh where leadership is going, and I just feel like I'm so happy this is where it's going.
SPEAKER_02Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you. You you got the message then.
Yes, uh Claude, uh you are chief heart officer at Vineyard Axe, and you wrote this book. I think I have a couple of questions here to start. Maybe first give listeners a little bit of background besides your work at Viner. Like, how did you come to write this book? Maybe a little bit of your journey to this point.
SPEAKER_02I would I would love to. I would love to. I will tell you, I at my heart, I've always been a team player. And I I love no matter what position I am on a team, whether or not I'm leading the team, I'm a player, I'm a coach, it doesn't matter. I would say I really found myself through being on a team. I found out what my strengths were, and when I was on a team, on Teams, I failed and they lifted me back up and I did it again, and they lifted me back up, and then I finally, you know, you do well. A team really supports you, and so what the what I really wanted to convey in the book are a couple of things. One, I wrote the book because in the working world, I did not feel like I belonged for a long time. I had such imposter syndrome, I had such a belief that I wasn't smart enough, that I wasn't tall enough, that I wasn't blonde enough, that I wasn't enough. And I know for a fact, a lot of people feel that every single day. What I did was I spent my entire 20s figuring out who I was. I really had to figure it out, what my strengths were, what I was bad at, what was going on in my head that was telling me that I didn't belong and I didn't, I wasn't smart enough. And once I did that, I realized, oh, everything I'm telling myself is not true. Truth is, is X, Y, and Z. So I wanted to first and foremost be in a culture such as Vayner X, where I can create and co-cultivate a culture of belonging and bravery every day. Secondly, I wanted to write a book that told people and showed people how they can A, find self-awareness and B, use that strength to find belonging and to build belonging on a team. And that really is where it all stemmed from from me. So I was a poor student, so I didn't think I was smart, and I was a great team player, and so I had to find a way to bridge those two things and working with people and understanding that we all are so different, we all have such different lived experiences, but we have such similar emotions. It gave me hope that if I'm feeling emotionally optimistic, I know there are other people out there that are feeling it. If I'm feeling emotionally brave, I know there are other people out there that are doing it. So I just wanted to put a little bit of a definition around some things and then write the book. And the book is a journey. You can pick it up anywhere you are, whoever you are, and find something I hope that speaks to you.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and could I ask also what's your highest hopes for the book? What would you what do you hope uh it will accomplish maybe in a leadership space and also yeah, maybe for an individual who's gonna pick up that book, whether they're no matter where in their leadership journey they are.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I think the book is actually written for the person that's just starting out, that's a rising leader, or that are a leader, or students as well. My hope is that people open this book and they feel like they can breathe. They feel my hand on their shoulder, and my hand says, You got this, you got this, and this is how I know you got this. If you follow these steps and do these tools, so I want to be a passenger with people on their journey, and I believe the book is that.
Yes, and uh, for me at least, it did exactly that. You know, when I uh finished the book, I picked up a couple of uh quotes, passages from the book that really spoke to me, and I think they actually represent what you just said, what you hope the book will accomplish. Like one of the quotes was actually from a woman who you mentioned in one of the stories, and it says that uh the woman said, For the first time, I realized that I didn't have to choose between being successful and being me. And something inside of me spoke to that. I choose to be me to be successful. I I feel like if also success, you know, I was talking to a friend, and we're like, success is such a weird word because it's such a different thing for different people. And I I think for me fundamentally, if you can be yourself in your life or in your workplace, that that's success.
SPEAKER_02That is that is success. Oh my gosh, that is success. And I was just speaking to someone who told me that he is not his authentic self at work, he plays a role, he doesn't color outside the lines, but outside of work, he's goofy, he's funny, he's sloppy. And I asked him, what is the price you pay for holding back yourself at work? And we, you know, we dug into it, and he is the price he pays is frustration. The price he pays is that he is in this when he is just a suit, he had such high expectations of people, not realizing that when you bring your whole self in, we're messy, we're not going to hit a home run every day. We're we're messy people, and he's keeping the mess away, which means his team doesn't get to keep to show themselves at work either. He doesn't want to see it, he only wants excellence, yes, and that's that's that's unreasonable.
SPEAKER_00And also for me personally, like excellence is such a weird thing as like success to define. How do we know before it happens that it is excellence? Because excellence, if you only have one hard definition, it's the past. So you basically don't give the future that can evolve any space. And you know, in your book, you make the case actually that allowing people to show up as themselves is good not just for people, but also for business.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Oh my gosh, yes, yes, yes. Like if you imagine a sports team and the person was a phenotypical athlete, but left part of themselves out, they wouldn't be that phenomenal. They would be missing a part of them, like missing an arm, missing a finger. I truly believe that you can find success within yourself and a wonderful success in ROI for your company when you bring your whole self to work because you're not lying anymore.
SPEAKER_00No, and not only that, yeah. I also wanted to speak to this idea that high performance scientists, psychologists actually proved that when a person is trying to keep their guards up, they're spending so much of their cognitive capacity on that that they can barely show any performance.
SPEAKER_02They can barely exactly your cortisol levels go up, the anxiety goes up, and your performance tanks. Yes, kind of the lose-lose.
SPEAKER_00Everyone loses. It's exactly. So it's not just, I guess what I'm trying to reflect back is it's not just great for people, right? And that is, I believe, also the case that you're making in the book. It's also really great for the company to have people who can show up as their full self.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And I will say, you need leaders that are walking that walk so you can feel comfortable to do so. You need that are showing vulnerability, that are showing their goofy side, that are showing, you know, their bravery. You need leaders that are showing emotional intelligence so you can feel comfortable doing that too, right?
Yes, and exactly, you know, lead by example. We when a leader shows up a certain way, it silently tells us like this is the way, or at least this is what is to model, right? And we being social creatures, we can't help ourselves but model what we see in our leadership. So exactly. And you know, speaking about emotional intelligence, in the book, you actually have three emotional pillars, I believe you call them emotional bravery, optimism, and efficiency. And uh can you expand on what they mean, how you define them, and how people can exercise them in the workplace?
SPEAKER_02Yes, of course. I call them the three E's, and they're all I believe they're always happening. Always. It's a flywheel, right? It's not linear, of course. Emotional optimism is the belief that even though things might be bad right now, even though today might not be a good day or I got a bad review, tomorrow's gonna be better. It's hope and it's belief self and belief in the way, just the natural way of working, the natural world. Things will get better, but you must find that possibility and positivity in yourself. That's very true. So, for example, if I had a bad review with my manager and I'm sad, I am not a sad person. That review made me sad. So separate, I am not the emotion. And if you can separate and take the emotion off of you, not only will you be lighter, you're able to feel the hope for tomorrow. Bravery is actually saying to your manager, I actually disagreed with a couple points you made there on that feedback form. I'd like to talk to you about it, knowing that you're good with yourself, you have self-awareness, and you're gonna take action on it and say, you know what? Can we do that conversation again? You're gonna do something that is it challenges you, but you know you can do it because you have the optimism. And the efficiency is actually doing these things and and and it's it creates speed. So once you start to trust yourself that, okay, I know tomorrow's gonna be a better day. And I can take action on things, I don't need to wait for things to happen to me. You start to speed up your actions, you start to speed up your decision making, you start to speed up where you're going. And if you do that also on teams, you start to build resilience with each other, trust with each other, gratitude and warmth and humility and compassion, and you build a shorthand. And a shorthand gets you from point A to B much faster. If I don't have that shorthand, we all wallow in all of the emotions that we all have. So is really being able to just move, have momentum in your life by not hanging on to the gravity of those emotions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it also reminds me of this idea when we sometimes talk about people who we have really who we need to really have our guards up, but also almost walk on glass, like feeling like that, you know, and that makes everything just so much slower because you have to almost watch every single word, like is it right, is it thrown? Okay, how am I gonna perceive it? And that of course slows things down, and that's where also it's gonna become really bad for business. As they say, you know, business moves with the speed of decision. So how can you make fun decisions?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, if you can't even if you're so cautious all the time looking behind your back, you you're gonna be like a slug.
Yeah, yes, and and that's how again back to this idea that it's not just good for people, it's amazing for business. And I actually read, I think it it was maybe a year ago, so somewhere in your science, they did this study on optimistic people and people who are not that optimistic, and they noticed that people procrastinate less when they're more optimistic. And I thought to myself, uh, that's probably when you think the future is bright, you want to do more. Whereas if you think it's gonna be doom and gloom, so why bother?
SPEAKER_02Exactly. So that's but what when you are an optimist, you see possibility, you see open doors. If I'm a pessimist, I don't see any open doors, they're not open, and I might be a victim.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and and and then yeah, the question in your mind, like why do any uh work or why show up fully if things will not work out anyhow? Exactly. That's um, you know, such an again an amazing concept. It just uh and I think a lot of your work is uh is around emotional brave and resilience and optimism. I think you know, a uh the the next thing where I wanna jump to is labels. Can we speak a little bit more about that in the workplace? And um you know, you you had this sort of fun phrase that labels are for cans. And I also thought to myself, you know, even good labels, they're just so limiting. Like once you sort of put yourself in the box, then you have to stay in that box and limiting your growth and your your evolvement, uh, your evolving in uh in the next version. So can you speak to that? Like how why it is important to not have that many labels and maybe also how to shape them uh as you need to.
Yeah, and I also think it's okay to have many labels as long as there's fluidity there. You know, not every day am I going to be the most optimistic. I change. Not every day am I going to feel like going to work and ah yeah, you know, I'm a I'm a human being. But fundamentally, I say the chapter is called labels are for soup cans. And what that means is once a label, to your point, is stuck on a can, that's just what you call it tomato soup. It's tomato soup, it can't be anything else, just like you said. Once you're in the box, you cannot come out unless you open the box. And I think they can be very dangerous because they're limiting, there's no growth within a label. You cannot grow. You are a soup can, you cannot be anything else, you are a low performer, you cannot be anything else. That's already how they see you. You know, you are you are not smart, that's already how they see you. And so these lay these labels really can do an injustice to ourselves, and so you finding the self-awareness within yourself to understand who you are. You get to define who you are. You do, no one else. They can say what they want, but you know who you are, and that is the most important thing. But that takes some time. Getting to know who you are, getting to know what makes you tick, getting to know what makes you sad, getting to know you know how you get out of a bad mood, all of these things, because we're multifaceted, we're not just one thing, and so spending enough time with yourself, figuring out your feelings, all of these things, which it's a lifelong journey. Yeah, it's what gets you out of the label. So when someone says to you, you're not the right fit, you can ask them, what do you mean I'm not the right fit? Can you explain that? Well, you're not this, this, this. Yes, but I am this, this, this, and many other things. The point of that is don't let other people define you. Define yourself.
SPEAKER_00No, can you maybe share some practices that worked for you or worked for people that you leading and coach? Uh, some practices that will help people to develop more of self-awareness and more of understanding of who they actually are.
SPEAKER_02Yes, of course. One of the ones that I talk about in the book is called the lie exercise, L-I-E. I would say probably 99% of us are telling ourselves negative things in our head, right? We have imposter syndrome or limiting beliefs. I'm not smart, I'm not smart, I'm not smart, I'm not pretty, I'm not pretty, whatever it is. I'm I'm I'm always the last person that gets picked for a team, whatever it is. What I ask you to do is in a on a piece of paper, write that down. I am not smart. Now find all of the evidence to back that up. I am not smart. What is the evidence? Oh, I can't really find any today because I'm on a podcast with Angela. I work for Gary Vanderchuk, I've been there for 11 years. Okay, I have evidence that that's wrong. So what then is the truth? The truth is, is I I think in different ways. My intelligence comes out in a myriad of different ways. That makes me happy to say that. If I if you it's because but basically, I need to then take that new sentence and put it into my head. No, my intelligence comes out in different ways. That look at the smile on my face, rather than saying, I am dumb, I am dumb, I am dumb. When you say, Yes, this is okay, I accept me. So that's one of the biggest ways. And I spell that out in the book, and it's a great exercise to do. The other thing to do is to really ask yourself, you know, when do you feel happy? When do you feel scared? When do you feel anxious? When do you feel joy? And write some of those down so you can start to see. I feel happy when the sun is shining, I feel happy when my daughters are uh climbing all over me, I feel sad when my friends are sick. I, you know, under start to start to understand your feelings, your emotions. No one else can do that for you, but you have to take the time to do that. You can go, you know, you could take five minutes, you can take five years. It doesn't really matter. But making time for yourself is the most important thing, and that's self-compassion. In order to find self-awareness, you must be kinder to yourself. You must be. And that, by the way, is not easy for any of us. It really isn't. You know, we're always gonna find fault with something, and some things we can let go, and some things we really have to work through.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's uh you know, a couple of things here. I think uh just spending time on reflecting on, as you mentioned, like what makes you feel certain emotions, what makes you tick, what makes you hate things, and you that's where you also how you discover your values, right? And one by one also find your boundaries. And and I think you know, to that point about the lie exercise, I feel like there for me at least, I would caution myself stick to real facts, meaning I can find a lot of proofs that I'm not this or that or whatever. But what of those are actual truths that I experience and see in the world?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so look really look at the evidence. Are you really not smart? Really? Like, really look at that, and then you know, what I can say is, you know, I'm not I there's tons of things I can say that probably are true, but there's you know, when it comes down to it, yes, I I am smart and I do make time for my family. And all of those things you have to find what is what is truthful, what is a lie?
SPEAKER_00Yes, uh, and also what is the truth, the lie that maybe is important to you. Well, back to this idea, you know, of success. Yeah, somebody might say you're not successful because of acts, and they might be right if you accept their definition, but they're probably wrong if you don't accept their definitions.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so what is a definition?
A label like yes, exactly. So the yes, uh and and but back to labels. So shifting the label, I guess, starts with self-awareness and then understanding that you actually don't have labels but more like qualities of yourself, which are developing and changing and shifting. And maybe workplace practice, right? If somebody isn't in a situation where they have a label, right? Or maybe they have a certain either reputation or something that people put on them already, maybe because of their actions as well. Like, what are some ways that people can start shifting that?
SPEAKER_02When someone has a label of you, you have you have to you have you basically need to identify that and see that you're stuck. You're stuck because they see this, and then in the workplace, you need to find the proof to show them. If this is your manager, and your manager says you're not a fit for this team, okay, ask them why. This, this, this. So maybe they're not seeing the real you, maybe they're not seeing how you do add to the team, how your values do match to the team vision. To you know, you you have every right to say, thank you for that. Actually, I'd like to come back to you tomorrow because I think we're misaligned here. I think you see me in one way and I see me in the other way. And there's the truth in the middle. Yeah. One of the things I do talk about in the in the book is you are the CEO of you. I'm in charge of me, not Angela. Angela's in charge of Angela. But in the workplace, and just like in relationships, sometimes we want someone to take control of us and tell us what to do, right? We want to abandon our own worth and have someone tell us what to do. But how do you know if that's your truth if you haven't spent enough time thinking about it and feeling it and experiencing it? So you have every right to get right about what your values are, what makes you tick, what makes you talk, and and really like what doesn't work for you? What is the shadow side of you? You know, I can be at my best, but also I can also be at my not best. I have a shadow too, but I have to identify that. I have to know. I know personally that when I don't feel that someone's been accountable, I will shut them out. I know that. I've spent enough time in my body knowing that. And so what I have to do instead of shutting them out is I have to communicate to them.
SPEAKER_00And that's not always Yeah. And that I guess comes back to that emotional bravery that you also have to communicate that, you know, this is the label that I don't agree with, and I don't agree with it because of that. And it takes courage and bravery.
SPEAKER_02It does. And you're not always going to get it right. And you're not always going to find alignment with your boss or your manager. And you, as a leader, might not find alignment with that person that says to you, I know I deserve a promotion. And you say, actually, you don't because you miss this, this, and this. And the person says, No, no, no, I did that right. You know, you have to find alignment and somehow accept one another where we are and go from there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And also, I love the what you mentioned about the shadow side that we all have, you know, in different roles that we have. It's whenever you show up with your talents as your strengths, you also have that shadow side. And I think also all of us need to own that as well and know that yes, be yourself, but it doesn't mean that just do whatever, and everyone should be fine with that.
Exactly. So I invite people to bring their emotions into the workplace, but I also ask them to know how to regulate their emotions so you don't spill everywhere. No one wants to be around someone that's spilling, sharing too much, all of this stuff, you know. So that's that's the deal. Of course, you can bring your emotions into the workplace, but really be mindful of how much you're sharing them. Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00And to whom? Who are you sharing that with? Yes, and I think many people might find it a little bit of challenging. Like, how do you draw that boundary between oversharing and bringing your emotions? Do you have any guideline or exercise? So, how should people approach it?
SPEAKER_02That takes an enormous amount of self-awareness, and it also takes communicating with someone. Communicating with someone to say, is that okay that I told you that, or was that too much? Right. And if that person is honest, they'll say, it was a little too much for me. Right? You might not need to share everything about your upbringing with everyone. Like that's too much. But it does take self-awareness. You know, what do you feel safe to share? Okay, I feel safe to share this, and that seems to be okay with my team. When I shared this, I noticed that people were really afraid of me. You know, you have to just stay alert, or you have to have some great support systems in the workplace, which hopefully you do, to say that was an overshare. If you want to share that kind of stuff, you can share it with me, but it's not for your team. Yes.
SPEAKER_00And that speaks back to that idea that it should be a pulp culture that you know it's not just you who just decide to shift, uh, even though I guess it's part of the leadership, but also I guess it's unrealistic to then expect everyone to just also accept all of this and you know, and read the same books and decide to go on the same journey of self-awareness. It's also yeah, you can't expect the world to be perfect, you just have to do your best.
SPEAKER_02You exactly. And by the way, in culture, just like in any culture, you need everyone, you need all shapes and sizes, you need all colors, you need all difference. Yes, then you can you can remain curious about the world, then you can say, Oh, really, I like how that person shows up every day. I'm gonna try that too.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's um I I also believe for you know that how we know ourselves is when we see different people and we start to understand, ah, I'm different in this way, or this is another way to show up. Yeah, exactly. You know, the book is is so rich in different practices around work culture in general. A few concepts that I think we definitely need to uh stop on. And the first one that I'd like to maybe dig deeper is belonging versus fitting in. These days you hear so much about belonging, and I feel a lot of very often it's confused with this idea of fitting into the culture, and you also speak about like culture fit and culture addition. So, could you speak to those ideas that you expressed in the book?
Yes. So human beings are all wired to belong. We are all wired to be in community, we are all wired to have a place on a team, all of us, every single one of us, since the dawn of time. When newborn babies, when they're just born, they come onto their mama's chest and they release oxytocin, which is a hormone right here. That's a hormone that releases the feelings of I'm safe, I belong, I'm warm, I'm protected, I'm loved. All of those feelings. Fitting in has none of that. Fitting in is not a fitting in is a puzzle piece. You complete the puzzle because we have this piece. That's not belonging. There's no I don't believe that that is a psychological concept. Fitting in is looking like everyone else. Going to the same college, going to the same bar after work, dating the same person type of person. That's fitting in, laughing at the same jokes. Belonging is a deep understanding that I am safe here. I am psychologically safe, I am physically safe, and I will be taken care of. We will all be taken care of because we do it together, because we're a community. Fitting in, that's just like, well, you might as well paint, you may as well paint the doors the same color as the wall because they need to match. That's matching. That is not belonging. Culture fit and culture addition. Culture fit is finding people that look like me, talk like me, went to the same schools as I did, grew up in the same way as I did, everything else the way I did. So you get apples and apples and apples and apples. Culture addition means I'm able to be curious and get apples and oranges and bananas and tangerines, people that are different, people that bring differences into the culture, different language, they've come from different places, they were raised in the jungle with elephants, they, you know, they like to go to the circus every weekend, like whatever, whatever it is. That's an that's adding to the culture. That's adding to the microcosm, which is the culture, and you need that. You don't want apples and apples and apples all the time. It's good to have culture fit when you're starting out, right? When you need speed, you need everyone to be on the same wavelength. Let's go. We all study the same thing. I know where you're from. We all have think, we all think the same. It's like a herd mentality, but you only need that for this amount of time, and then you need to bring in all the other qualities and things about human beings. Those human beings need to feel comfortable to share that with you. That's yeah. So when you hire hiring, most of the time you hire for culture fit. Oh, I think that person's cool. I think I can I can ride on a bus with them for six hours. We'd have a great time. We like the same music. Okay, that's culture fit. Culture addition is I don't actually think we like the same music, but I'm open to hearing what kind of music he likes and learning, being curious about it.
SPEAKER_00I guess my question would be here, and headed from a lot of leaders as well. Again, like where then not the boundary, but distinction, like as a culture, we usually have values, right? And we we want people in any company or any community to respect it in values, and so I I guess what my question is what's the difference and how do you separate like culture fit and where you can accept different people and where you have this, I don't know, some canvas of unity where you have some coherence.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that's really an interesting point because we have at Vayner Media, we have specific values that we expect people to also have and behave as though they have. So kindness. We expect people to be kind. You and I might show kindness in a very different way. It's still kindness, right? There's still unity in the value of kindness, honesty, integrity, belief in possibility. You and I probably have all of those, but we're gonna show up in a different, slightly different way because we had different backgrounds. We were raised differently, we have different lived experiences, you know. Empathy, the way you show empathy might be like X, but the way I show it works for me, and this is how I show empathy. So it's still unity around those values. You don't have to have clones of one another. You don't have clones. You how how can you be creative and innovative if you have all people that are all the same?
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I I agree. I was just wondering how do you separate those things or where you uh where they are not the same, but where they have something in common, like fitting in. So for me, for example, fitting in means being having common values, right? So that's that's and and understand that all people can express them differently, but fundamentally, if I meet, as you said, kindness, if I see someone who is unkind and they are consistent with that behavior, then for me that the relationship will not continue, right?
SPEAKER_02And so yes, so you said something really interesting, you use the word common, common doesn't mean identical. You yourself said for me, fitting in is people that have common values, yeah, but common doesn't mean identical. So you just actually said no, it's it's addition. You actually said it's addition by the way you use the word common. If you said fitting in is everyone having the same values, that's different than common.
SPEAKER_00That's what I that's I just wanted to you to elaborate on that because sometimes sometimes you just get lost in this like definitions, and some people say, Well, I don't agree because we all need to have this, you know, value of this and this and that.
SPEAKER_02And but this is where we have to allow for difference, and not everyone allows for difference because it doesn't feel safe, maybe, you know, yeah. You want people that show up in the same way you show up. You want people that adhere to the same type of rules as I do. I don't know if that's really fair in the workplace, I really don't, because we just we need people from all walks of life.
SPEAKER_00Yes, to find solutions or solve problems.
Yes, yes. So while I I say, yes, I understand the naysayer, I understand what they're saying. I don't know how you have innovation and creativity when you have people that are all the same. I don't know how you grow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I agree. I think it's also very true on a personal level that if you don't explore different aspects of self, then where are you gonna grow? Just gonna run in circles.
SPEAKER_02Right. That's why traveling is so important. That's why going to different cultures is so important. Going to other people's homes is so important, listening to people's language is so important. So you get to see that not everyone is like you, and that's fantastic.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's uh, you know, one of the I think most valuable things that I learned while traveling is that people are different. Like the way we define you know, normal or happiness or what's important, they get so different in every part of the world.
SPEAKER_02That's exactly right. What do people care about in Istanbul? Is it the same thing they care about in New York City? I doubt it. I doubt it for a number.
SPEAKER_00Right? Yes, when I think about that, it's even hard to compare.
SPEAKER_02Fascinating though, isn't it? I think it's when you think about human beings and the way we behave, it's just it's it's I'm so curious about it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, you know, we started speaking about some of the culture, uh I guess practices or core pillars to create. I'm I'm I I put myself a note, heart-centered cultures. There were three that you mentioned in the book. Could you also speak to the other two? The first one was about culture edition, not culture fit, and two others were about retaining top talent. And I think that was the third one. I don't remember what it was.
SPEAKER_02The well, so we talked about the culture fit and culture. Yes. Retaining top talent is extremely important. Retaining top talent is how you're going to grow your business, but also coaching talent to become top talent is very important from the inside. So that way you're you don't always have to go outside to hire, you grow from within. That's so important. When you can promote someone into a job that's been doing this job at the company, and then they get to do this job, that's a phenomenal feeling rather than having to hire someone from the outside. So we want to retain, we want to give them enough coaching opportunities, learning and development, leadership opportunities. I mean, we we want to do what it is that is going to help them see that at this company, not only do we care about you, but you matter to us. If you were gone, we would really miss who you are, also. So you go for it.
SPEAKER_00No, I just wanted to ask. I remember that you mentioned the way to retain top talent is to pay attention to them, to hear them, to listen to them while you have them, not when they decide to leave. Okay. And uh the question was the question was, what are some practices that you found work really well when you have you know talented people, great people who can bring a lot to work like in terms of performance of their genius in general? Like how do you keep those people? How do you create that environment where they can flourish and they want to stay?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so opportunity, right? They need opportunity, they need what I would say is at bats, so they need to try different things and move out of their comfort zone so they can grow. They definitely need to be around other top talent or other leaders that they, oh yeah, I really like. I love the way that leader leads. I really want to have a mentorship, mentorship relationship with them. What I meant about, you know, it's too late when they send in their resignation notice. One of the things that I put in place is what I call a stay interview rather than an exit interview. A stay interview gives me and everyone else an idea of is this person getting what we said they would get here? Equal opportunity, at bats, growth, are they being challenged? Do they have a mentor, or is there someone that they can, you know, sync with? I want to know all of that well before they decide to leave. You also want to give them, you know, acts of spontaneity and and surprise and delight. Like these are people you want to keep. So if you have extra tickets to that concert, maybe you want to share it with them. Maybe you can't give them money, but you can have them sit in a pitch, you can sit in and and you can have them, you know, do something that is is different from their day-to-day and show them other parts of the company. That's what I that's what I mean about that.
And did you notice or know of some practices that are a no-no for if a company wants to attract and retain top talent, what are maybe some mistakes that uh when you see them, you're like that is just you know, it's so not right.
SPEAKER_02Only hiring white people, right? Only hiring people that look like me and you, or maybe just me without an accent. That's a huge oopsie. That's a huge mistake, right? Firing people, terminating people too quickly without giving them enough coaching or opportunity to grow. You know, that's another one. I would say, you know, having the perception of being a boys' club or a girls' club, right? Perception from the outside world that, oh, well, you just hire dudes. Well, maybe you need to look at that. Do you hire hire just dudes? Do you just promote dudes? You know, what is it? Do you hire from minority populations? So a lot of the no-nos are around D E and I. A lot, right? Because it is so easy, and and you're we are so susceptible to being and staying around people who are like us. We are comfortable, very, very, very comfortable in that. So that's pretty much one of the I would say the the biggest no-nos.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and and also when when you were talking about how to retain top talent, I heard a lot about growth, I heard a lot about opportunity and challenging and giving them space to express their creativity. I didn't hear a lot about, you know, you need to give them bonuses and uh etc. Well, where I I I know that it's important, you know, to make a good living uh for the work that you do, but um I'm glad that you also found that it's not a defining factor in how to keep the best people.
SPEAKER_02No, that's that's like cheap and cheerful, and not everyone has the luxury of that.
SPEAKER_00Would you say would you say there anything else that you believe is very important to create a heart-centered culture? Yes.
SPEAKER_02Leaders that listen.
SPEAKER_00And yes, how do you how do leaders need to listen?
SPEAKER_02Leaders that have emotional intelligence, leaders that leaders that understand that people experiencing people experiencing life in a different way than you do. So for example, here's a wonderful example, not a great example, but it's a good, it's a wonderful example of this. In the States, a few years ago, we had the murder of George Floyd. You can imagine that our black and brown population was very shaken up, and so were other people too, but very, very shaken up. We had a leader, very senior leader, who walked into work on that Monday, not being conscious of the audience he was speaking to, and said, So how was everyone's weekend? It's a perfect example. Instead of saying, looking around and saying, Hmm, I bet this was a hard weekend for some of you. Just acknowledging that people need different things. Yeah, that's it. That's one example right there. So that's just a extreme example, but of being conscious. And also, how do you listen? You know, I'm I'm listening because I'm curious about you. I'm listening not because I want to interrupt you, not because you don't have something valid valid to say. So active listening means really leaning in, showing you the body language that I'm here, I'm present, I'm not looking at my phone, right? I'm not pressed for time, I can do this. I allotted enough time for this, and we can do this together. And then doing something. So I say all the time people need people. People need people that listen and then do something. If you're a leader, your task is to then do something, give them an opportunity, sh introduce them to someone over there or over there so they can learn about that that practice over there. You know, show them leadership skills, you know, give them a podcast to listen to, give them an exercise, a challenge. Like our role as leaders is we work for them, they don't work for us, and that's we have that backwards. You know, we really backwards, I believe, in corporate America, whereas, you know, we call people superiors, I can't drive me nuts.
SPEAKER_00Yes, leaders are there to, as you in the book, I think you mentioned it many times, is to bring the best out of people who actually do the work and deliver all the products and services and all the greatness that uh the company then creates in the world, right?
And yeah, I mean uh easy things for leaders to do, appreciate them, write them a quick note of appreciation. It takes me three seconds. Thank you so much for all the hard work you did this week. Boom. Yeah, I feel so seen when something like that happens. Oh my god, that person took their time to really text me. Yeah, it took no took no time at all. Leadership is about we, not I.
SPEAKER_00Yes, we I remember waking up one night, and for whichever reason the thought came to me, leadership is when you start thinking beyond yourself.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Exactly. And actually, that's a wonderful marker when you know that you are now able to think about others and put their needs really first, quite frankly. You're ready.
SPEAKER_00Yes, leadership, yeah, it's about others, not about yourself.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, one of the last things, uh, because I do want to respect your time, even though you said you have, you know, you have modern things to do. One of the things that I wanted you to also speak to is running on com. Which yes, I I it was the first time that I heard it expressed this way. And I feel like it's so important because uh when you are a leader, you're there to face uh the most challenges, right? Uh, that's your one of the the jobs as a leader to face those challenges and then still somehow be calm and and help others to get through this well. So so yeah, to speak please to this concept.
SPEAKER_02As a leader, even if we're in the most challenging situations, you want me to be calm. If I get anxious, you're gonna get anxious. If I show fear and you know start to go crazy, you're gonna go crazy. You're gonna you're gonna freak out, you're not gonna feel safe. A leader is there to to walk you through the fire, show you how to get through the fire. But I believe that calm, a calm confidence is what is needed. That doesn't mean you're not excited, excitable, you know, but you're not erratic. You're consistent, you show up consistently. When this happens or when this happens, you show up as the consistent person you are. People need consistency in order to trust. They really, really do. They don't, they cannot trust a person that is here one day, this, the other day, this the other day. And so the the point here is how do you, leader, find calm within yourself? Do you go and close your eyes for five minutes and do box breathing? Do you put your feet on the floor? Do you listen to your favorite music? What do you do? And I believe as a leader, you need to know that. And that of course is called self-awareness again. You know, it's like it's not, I don't want to say it's common sense, but it I don't believe it's rocket science. I believe that this is, you know, this is what all the psychologists that have come before us are talking about. This is what all the behaviors are talking about, you know, understanding yourself. Understanding yourself. It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00It's it's beautiful. And and speaking, you know, this um Ryan Concom, uh, you mentioned uh a couple of practices with the breath work specifically. Do you have any others that leaders can use to get back to their calm self when things start getting out of control and maybe they don't know what to do?
SPEAKER_02I think there's always phone a friend or phone someone that can help you or find a friend at work that knows you and can settle you down. That's always going to be there. I think definitely doing some grounding exercises, and maybe that is some kind of imagery that you think of. Maybe you put on some nice mellow music, but imagery that, you know, for example, one of the things that I used to use when I would close my eyes is this image of a I'm a huge tree, and I have roots and I'm grounded and I'm safe, and you know, I'm I'm expansive, those types of things. Have a mantra. Like, I am worthy, I am enough, I am whatever that insecurity is. Let's try to find the opposite of that, right? But I think the it's so important to remember you're not alone. You know, you're not alone. And it's a wonderful thing when you can find a friend or two in the workplace that can help you mellow and come back to yourself. You know, another thing to do is close your eyes and then open them. And before I open them, what I'm gonna do is okay, Claude, get very present. And what is the first thing you see? I see a box of Kleenex. What is the first thing you hear? I hear a siren. What do you taste? The watermelon that I ate before I got on this call. Okay, that gets me present. Doing those types of things.
Yeah, sensors. I I read somewhere what makes us present the fastest is our sensory of any kind of sensations that we can pay attention to. Yeah, thank you so much for these examples. And again, I want to be mindful of your time, Claude. So thank you so much for writing the book for this interviewer. And I think a last couple of things, one, what would you like our to leave our listeners with? Maybe a practice, a thought, an exercise.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would say ask yourself truly when you walk into the workplace, what are you not bringing with you? What part of yourself are you not bringing with you? Real about that. Are you not bringing your funny side? Are you not bringing your The fact that you love hard rock. Well, what are you not bringing? And what does that cost you?
SPEAKER_00Such a great question. My mom always tells me you should smile more. That's what I'm not bringing anywhere sometimes. Uh it feels like. Yeah. So thank you so much for this exercise and encourage listeners uh to do it, to ask themselves this question. And the last thing, where should listeners go to you, connect with you? I'm gonna link the website, your book. What are some other places? Your socials where you most active LinkedIn, Instagram.
SPEAKER_02I respond to anyone that writes me a DM. Yeah, definitely go to my website, sign up for my newsletter. I I'm I'm responsive, so just write me.
SPEAKER_00Yes, uh, and again, amazing. Thank you so much for your work. Be yourself at work. I recommend listeners to pick it up the soonest and do the exercises that speak to them and then go out there and lead being to themselves. Be proud of yourself. Yeah. Thank you so much, Claude. To see you. Thank you. Bye.