Pastor Brett Clubb

Today's episode is with Pastor Brett Clubb, Executive Development Leader and Director of the WayMaker Institute at WayMaker Church in Lynchburg, VA. Brett has a heart for consulting and helping other leaders grow and expand their capabilities. Brett touches on several topics ranging from infertility, the goodness of God, the timing of God, and more.

For more information on the WayMaker Institute please visit www.WayMaker.Institute

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Transcript

00:00:10Welcome to the sharper together podcast. We're built on the Proverbs 27:17 principle that is iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another it is our hope that listening to real life stories in Q&A from leaders of all walks of life will encourage Empower and equip you in your walk with Christ. Today's guest is Pastor Brett Club. He's the executive development leader and director of the way maker Institute at Waymaker Church in Lynchburg, Virginia. He's married his life K-C and has three amazing children. He has a heart for Consulting and helping other churches and leaders grow to expand their leadership capabilities. I'm your host Michael Leaf. Let's dive into today's episode and stay sharper together.

00:01:01Pastor Brett, welcome to the show. How you doing today? Michael? It is good to be here. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm glad that you're joining me today. I'm going to start off with a really tough theological question for you. You ready? I'm so ready. What is something that you are horrible at and possibly ashamed to admit this is hard because you know, I'm so I'm so good at so many things so maybe I'm horrible at humility and I am horrible at recognizing my own week. I will say this here's what I'm horrible at. I'm I am pretty competitive and I like sports I playing sports. I'm I'm probably horrible at a game that I can never actually back up. I figured that if I can I usually set my myself up for failure when I'm getting ready to play basketball game.

00:02:01Getting ready to golf with somebody's I will talk as if I am LeBron James or if as if I am, you know, Tiger Woods early Tiger Woods and then of course, I usually well 99.9% let them down. And so that's a really big big game big game, but he can't back it up. That's that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. That's awesome. I feel like I need to get out on a golf course with you and just see this for myself. Let's go. I mean I can play golf. I just I just overshoot expectations that that's it. I overshoot expectations. You could be anything else other than a pastor. What would you be and why?

00:02:45Oh, man, so this is kind of an unfair answer but probably a professor. However, I am able to live that dream a little bit. And so, you know, that's why I started to school so I can live out that dream on the side. Boom. I got a side hustle probably be in some sort of like business Consulting type roll. I love working with in analyzing other organizations companies helping them get better and like legitimate that brings in a lot of joy and excitement. So I would do that. I would help specifically just to fulfill the mission. So couple of different hats so you be a professor possibly do some Consulting work and

00:03:41501 c 3 charity. Yes, I would not do one thing. I would not do one thing that would be too boring, man of many talents overshot expectations, but I would at least try if you were a professor. Do you have a specific study that you would teach leadership like and I know that's a non-traditional class but leadership. I love teaching strategy Communications. So those in every once in awhile different places, but maybe some areas.

00:04:25It will have to look out for the bread Club leadership podcast coming soon. Well, you say that I can see it. I can see it. It's a prophetic Vision. I just had to happen to know what then I will receive that and I will see you know, what I'll pray about it. That's the Christian answer. I'll pray about it. What is your favorite story about your life that you love to tell people? It's about what I felt like God called me to post College where I found myself at

00:05:09Which was very different and then realizing that God was definitely Sovereign annuities doing throughout went to college for church ministry. I I knew that I loved local church. I wanted to lead in the local church and didn't know exactly what capacity of most young men who just graduated high school going to college have a passion for Ministry that I go. I'll do you typically because they experience and grew a lot and that's their that's their contacts their most recent contacts. So I think maybe I was there and the green youth Ministries and but I knew I was in a church.

00:05:56I graduated and got married and started working at a call center at a local University as an academic advisor. And I would say if you wanted to ask me what my what would be my version of Hell on Earth. It would be talking on the phone all day and into that. I was I was talking on the phone all day in a call center environment. And and so I had very candid conversation. This is not what I wanted. This is not what I thought you called me too, and and then stepped out it after a year as an academic advisor. I was promoted to assistant director and then after another year promoted to the associate director got a lot of experience and leadership in education.

00:06:56Organizational strategy and how do you hire? How do you buy I kept reminding myself of the story in the New Testament the parable of the three servants who were giving different amounts of money different amounts of resources to Steward stage 3 did different things Master returns and gives an assessment and I would read that like a weekly to remind myself. Like my only responsibility is to Steward what the master has given me eventually I would be hired on at we make your church and the job my dreams and then that cost to start a college start school. And what I realize is my exposure to as early days as a associate director of academic advising.

00:07:54Gave me the context of knowledge and experience to actually start a school. And so it just it was a testimony of God's sovereignty and and sometimes we don't have to have the answers. We just we just have to be obedient and do good work and Trust. Yeah, absolutely. What would you say that a person who's maybe feels like they're in that season of waiting right now, they're doing something that they don't feel called to do they don't love their job. What would you say to that person? So first of all God's perspective is eternal, but it's also personal to you and see you have to trust that I can use it you Sovereign he's a good father. He sees you and he's he's not unaware or surprised by anything. You're experiencing. Our response is what I would say is is the servant to not the servant who took the money to the resources from the map.

00:08:54Buried it out of fear out of concern about complacency, but the servant who took it and basically grew that and servant who was a good Steward of what they were given and then the master said well done and back. I'm going to give you what this other servants squandered and so it's like what you do now matters for what God has next and it's a spiritual thing and so stay faithful with it and in trucks that that eventually the master is going to come back and take kind of an assessment evaluation and and will trust you with more if you if you're faithful, so that's that's all you going.

00:09:44Yeah, that's that's a great answer. I want to piggyback off that a second thing. You said you talked about how you were working in the call center. You were moving up into director roles and all that and then next thing, you know, you're hired on at the church. Can you talk a little bit about what that look like for you you and I have very similar stories and that we were both feeling called to Ministry, but we're both working doing something else and then the next thing you know an opportunity arises. Can you talk about what that look like specifically for you? The first thing is it to God's grace where he he allowed at least at least a small understanding the mime ministry didn't start when I got hired on a trip out of church, right that as a follower Jesus. I had a Ministry at the school that I work that you know, and I had a I had a responsibility as a citizen of kingdom.

00:10:44Jesus even in the marketplace on to to help other people and then I have people all the time and I was able to to do ministry right and maybe it wasn't as old and declarative as may be working in a local church of contacts, but it still was Ministry that helped again that was stewardship that. I think open the doors and pave the way also.

00:11:13The the church that end up hiring me was the church where I deserve safely at so I knew I wanted to work in vocational full-time Ministry. I wasn't but I sit on my hands. I didn't just wait around like I knew that there was work to be done as a part of a local church family. And so I was I was serving in Ministry. I was a small group leader for first and second grade boys. I was a Storyteller and then and I just did that. I can help these young young boys and then

00:11:56I didn't know I'm the backing and the youth pastor the time knew he was leaving and so he began a task other staff members. Hey, what's the who's the volunteer? That is absolutely crushing it under teams. And so the the kids director said he's doing a great job comes every week he gives it is all he prepares. He loves these students. I think you should talk to him. And so I remember we had a lunch at a barbecue place. It's at 8. I know I'm on my way out, something new and I like pizza interview for the position for got to drop the silver platter before means they are now because you're so awesome. You go. It was just a matter of well, I love local church.

00:12:56Servicenow volunteer status and then that really paved the way for what opportunity came came back since I'll be able to take a lot of the leadership things. I learned at school into my contacts as a student Pastor. So we're talking about this season of waiting that that you were in your professional life. But you and your wife you went through a season of waiting with your children as well. So talk about if you don't mind kind of what happened after Ali was born just kind of that idea of you decided to adopt and all the things that happen around at the story with your kids during our interview process for the student Pastor position at church.

00:13:50We were going through infertility treatments. We love children. We knew we wanted to have children. I mean it just was like a no-brainer for us and there were signs early on that. We were going to have issues and so we went to doctors we got tested and it has like a like you had your you probably not going to have kids and we were I mean we were devastated because of we felt that God has given such a passion for kids which is like our God you gave us his passion yet. You have not given us the means to actually carry this out which you know fast forward was a skewed picture or expectation on what it meant to be parents. We had a very limited small understanding of that and then got hella a big lesson in the interview process. I remember it very vividly as we were I mean literally going

00:14:50I'm forced to Charlottesville, which is where there's an infertility clinic and we were going to do in the medicine and medication and treatments and all the stuff and negative negative testing in and just really being in a dark winter season of the Soul. Remember in the interview process is the final interview for suit Pastor were in this room. I remember I can I can smell the room and the lead pastor Pastor John is sitting there with some of the elders and other staff and just in my wife is with me some cases with me the final interview and nonchalantly, right? So for 3 years.

00:15:37And like there was nothing like malicious and is a tent and he just asked a question and legitimately. Neither one of us got any word out. We just started bawling which at that point. I'm feeling like an idiot come like probably the day before just visited infertility clinic for the hundredth time and it just like all those emotions. Can we just spilling out on the rim and weave I couldn't neither one of us could speak. We just started bawling and I'm finally got some like words out a little bit. Maybe they prayed over us. The interview obviously and just minister to us that moment and pray for us and crazy enough to get emotional. Just thinking about the crazy enough that we were actually pregnant at that moment and did not realize it was our first

00:16:37And so we actually the same week that we found out that we had been offered the position as soon Patrick Church. We found out that we were pregnant and so it was like this culmination of our prayers answered in this one at 1 week and season of infertility. We understood God was able to impress on us his heart for the fatherless and motherless the orphan and so we were committed to adopting and began the adoption process soon after Ali was born. We said to know what we are so grateful we have biological child. I'm not that good looking anyways, so I might as well. The rest of them kind of thing and her kids adoption process work through an agency. We are Church went through prayer and fasting season beginning of 2015 we pray.

00:17:37In faith that God will give us a child by the end of that year, which I said we pray in faith because the adoption process takes way longer and we knew it would be a miracle and the crazy thing is we found out in June of that year that we were like 12 weeks pregnant and had no clue like literally no clue that was without any sin 4:30 treatments. So that was pure miracle from God and in Jax was born on December 27th of that year the god literally answered our prayer and having a child by the end of that year outside of what we even expected like it was just crazy and so

00:18:20We Jackson born in that year. We waited till he was 9 months old because we had to based on our adoption agency started the adoption process again, and then we adopted a great Arthur child from a local family here. I'm in Lynchburg area and gray was born. We we were there at the hospital when he was born and we were able to bring him home. So we've had them from literally minute one that is all of our family 3 and no more and so I just honestly I stop talking to God on just in case you would tell us to adopt another child. So I haven't played in a couple years just so you know, that's good to know. I love that story and I love you know, the spirit of adoption. That's the reason that you know you and I have hope is that God and through the spirit of adoption and giving us Jesus and adopted us into his family. And so I drive a story.

00:19:20So what is something that adoption has taught you? Like? What is something gray has taught you about being a father and maybe even about god. Wow. So the thing is adoption teaches you a new aspect of love, right? So I think there is for a biological child. There's a natural inclination to love them because they kind of look like you little bit or at least you or your spouse. They have your personality they came from you in essence when you adopt you you learned that there's a there's a love that you probably don't understand fully in and it's a love for a child. That doesn't look like you doesn't have your jeans yet you love them as your own which in turn helps you understand the Father's love that he has for us that he would one like you said sent his only son begotten son to die for us.

00:20:20We could could literally like his spirit in Us carry all rights and Authority as children of God, right? And Anna. Love doesn't have a degree doesn't have a like level. It's just a fool full of bandhan love promise. And so even when Grey's difficult right when he's when he's because he's been our most difficult child. We are learning this beautiful by Covenant unconditional love that we have for him. And so it just helps us understand our Heavenly Father's Love For Us. You know, he gray has my name as my last name. He has all the rights all the Privileges that my other biological children have and so again, that's that's what we know about ourselves as children of God and the Living spirit of God in us.

00:21:20A lot about that. Yeah, that's awesome will shift gears a little bit and I asked you what is something that you wish you had known when he first came to faith in the Lord that I didn't know anything and that it in that it was okay to not really know anything other than the basics like I think there is a point where when you come to Faith In Jesus like you you understand at some level salvation. You understand some level repentance and who got his who Jesus is the holy spirit is and there can be a sense will like okay like I'm saying that followed Jesus.

00:22:01I wish I would have known that to the depth that it would be a lifelong journey of learning more and more about who got is right and it doesn't affect my salvation but it affects How I Live Now as a child of God on this Earth building his kingdom and in that I just there's so much. I didn't know and wouldn't know for years later and it's God's grace and just keep following him. You'll say things that are wrong God's grace covers at and you just keep repenting. Keep going forward keep pursuing him. That's probably what I need to tell myself today at the only things I still have yet to understand and no regards to the depths of who God is and so I'll be like man you do nothing.

00:22:54That's a great answer I think about just my own journey and in faith, especially when it comes to the sanctification journey and how you do wish that that's something that you you knew in the beginning like this is why Jesus says I have to die to myself everyday. Let's go like this pressure to almost like this crushing weight and pressure to know it all or have it all together to be perfect. Right? Cuz at the same time he says like my yoke is is like I want to give you an abundant life and it won't even be you doing it'll be me doing it through you took to know that and to be taught that at the very beginning would have been really helpful talk to me about a season in your life. And in this might be something you've already answered when it comes to your infertility struggles, but I don't want to limit you in case there's another one but talk about a season in your life. That was really difficult for you and what God did in that season.

00:23:51Well, how about let's just continue to the story because as as awesome as finding out in one week that we are both pregnant with our first child, which is a miracle from God. I just got hired on it at a local church the church that my wife and I have been part of I feel like I had my dream job. Everything was going to be awesome for the rest of my life. Right? Like nothing could go wrong got hired on at this church. And I mean, this is a very known in public story at this point and I I literally walked into I don't know the ratings of the podcast. I'll choose my words very very carefully. We walked into a crap storm of the situation very meant it was an incredibly bad culture. It was unhealthy staff. It was a disunifying staff.

00:24:51There was some really bad leadership. And I mean I was kind of Clueless to it all little bit cuz I'm so enamored by the snood this new job and made it. Finally got to where God wanted me to be and within the first two months of me being on staff. The first Corps staff member left ice. It wasn't good. We could tell it was a good and then in the next one left and then two more left and then kind of it was that like right seems good its really weird and I'm bad with time frames. But within two to three years, I was the only remaining staff member other than the lead Pastor that was still on staff from when I first came on and it was a large staff. It wasn't like it was a large that so

00:25:50I was in a couple years. I was the only one remaining and it was almost like a we had this this family meeting with the church and wears a pastor John was really honest and vulnerable of is there was no Affair. There was no like stealing money. Not even there wasn't anything like morally wrong with him. He just admitted that he had it been the great leader and she wasn't eating well and he kind of let go or or relinquished leadership and he knew that was disobedient to God that you did it anyways, and so therefore that's kind of weird that the staff had become and just a really unhealthy to see the fireplace not affected the whole church and so he may he repented of that and he has to forgiveness and at that time it was almost like a reset or restart to the church Elders really believed. He was supposed to be part. He was supposed to leave the shirt. You supposed to be the lead pastor.

00:26:50And said, okay, like if you're in this like let's go but we're going to basically build the staff over again. And I remember him coming to me because of kinds of last remaining of the original when I when I first started and he said hey, where you at? Are you still here? And I looked at him and said if you as long as you haven't lost the fire and passion to reach people with the gospel into fight in to be like in to work hard. I'm here. Let's do this and he's okay with the culture of the staff. I mean piece-by-piece day by day and I would say he spent the majority of this time. I'm building culture like literally every day majority of his focus is building culture the staff and we have grown so much. We are a different church and I just happen day by day overtime.

00:27:50Where I now have a healthy staph culture like God is building his church. There's a unity and even in the midst of a pandemic and so the church ministry supposed to be easy and fun and we're serving Jesus together and all sudden people don't like each other and they're leaving and families are leaving hundreds of people are leaving the church and said really touched my face. I'm in trust and a lot about pruning a lot about culture as soon as he does in the church, and I also learned a lot about Second Chances and Grace and I'm thankful. I stuck around because God's on the move and doing some pretty miraculous things here at Waymaker church. Maybe there's a leader of a local church listening right now who feels like you know, their culture is a little bit toxic or you know, maybe there's a staff member who's not the lead Pastor. What would you say?

00:28:50Someone is listening who feels like they're their culture on their staff for their Church isn't healthy. What are some things you would say to them?

00:29:00So obviously I went through that and I've built some content just out of stuff that I've learned and I like this is why I love sharing about right because the problem with culture is I'm health is not contagious sickness is right. And so every organization every church has a culture whether you realize it or not. If you're not working on it chances are to Drifting to a place of lack of health. And so you have to fight for it. First of all, you have to identify what you wanted to be but I think about my family like I never would say like my family has a culture of disrespect but then I begin to look at evidence and see you while we you know, the kids interrupt each other when they're trying to talk to to my wife and I or not good listeners. We don't ask a question when someone else is talking something. Okay? I don't want that culture in my home. So what I need to do and just leave for the church and Staffing

00:29:59Reduce my family culture of respect that look like someone else and so every day I have to come back that have to protect it at the guarded. And if one of my kids over there there a sibling I said, hey, hey, we're going to listen to them. We're going to be what they're saying and then when they're done talking you're going to ask a question like was going to show that you were engaged and you were talking to myself trying to build a culture of respect. So once you identify what you wanted to be you reinforcing you protected so reinforced means you you teach it to display it put it on walls put on T-shirts get a tattoo, whatever you want to do. You display it you celebrate it. So when people are living out what the culture you want you truly that on a basic positive.

00:31:00Reinforcement in the new with it, like personally you submit yourself to what you want that to be mine. So am I my house I have to listen to Casey really? Well. I have to not try to think of my rebuttal or interrupt someone so I have to live it just kind of the the the reinforcing culture the protecting culture looks like hard conversations and hard decision one thing with our church staff. We have a lot of hard conversations because when when we see something that is misaligned with the culture that we want and the culture we desire and we we we meet it head-on not controlling or a hateful way, but just to say Hey, listen, we are fighting for this culture in and that action or that thing you said goes against it. That's that's not healthy. And so I was supposed to talk about that until we have a lot of conversations.

00:31:54And you have to keep fighting for it and day out. That's obviously if you leave the organizational leader church, that's what we have to do. You have to reinforce it if the protected but it is possible cuz I've literally been able to watch the church culture 180° turn to like incredibly unhealthy to incredibly healthy and now helping other churches get hell. Yeah, what would you say to maybe there's a staff member who's listening who's not the lead pastor, but they recognize the culture is unhealthy about 3 Pastor doesn't what would you say to that person that never happens. So does the point person unaware of what's Happening?

00:32:54There's something unhealthy. Hopefully there's a there is a culture where you can talk about it right where you can bring it up in a very respectful and on our way. And now in order to do that, you have to be willing to submit to the current culture in order to actually have positive influence over it. Right? So even though you may not agree or it's difficult time. You still have to show a level of submission to your Authority which was an intern earn your comic and voice in that leaders life. Right? So if someone comes in and they're just day one like oh that's wrong or you're not to listen to them. But I've learned a voice on the staff and now is integrity number because of those early years. I like in the midst of really bad culture. I continue to submit to to Miley Pastor continue to not gossip to work hard keep my head down and keep moving forward and overtime. I was able to the belt

00:33:54Influence in his life and I'm in this church. And so hopefully you can talk about it. However, when I tell people is overtime was really only a couple of options you have when you feel like you have personal convictions about a way of organization or church beer and either you're there to help influence it which we going to talk about that really you have to submit before you're able to ever have a voice of influence sometimes God has you there and you just going to adapt to it and you're just going to submit to it. Maybe it's just different values. And so you just realized you know what it's not important. I'm going to submit to that. Sometimes you have to leave sometimes there's such a difference in values and culture that for you to stay would be toxic and you just have to recognize you know, what instead of being a toxic person. I'm going to to remove myself from this culture so that I don't add to the

00:34:54Toxicity or to the to the negative culture so and so I'm start they're stopping people that you do I'm lead and influence as long as it's not in direct conflict with the overall culture of the organization. What has been your biggest failure. And what did you learn from that failure Josh? I think my biggest failure would be assuming that I knew exactly what God's plan was for my life. As soon as I knew exactly what he wanted to do in through my life and I'm putting that in a box right like this like this perfect neat and tidy box that I could you know control and understand fully and so we can someone see my biggest failure is being closed handed or close-grip.

00:35:54With what? I'm Still A Guy want to do my life where I felt like it even close handed and close gripped on on my understanding of who God was right in his capability.

00:36:08And his character and just being so like nope. It's only that sits in this box and and I have control and safe and and I can take this box work with me and I don't want to I can just leave the Box behind and so there are moments where very painful moments where God in his grace. I'm open my hands to a place of surrender and there was a moment where I knew got a told me that I was going to be a significant part of something significant and I knew was going to be at the church in my mind. I had a picture of what that means. I'm going to be the executive Pastor. That's it right in and I automatically put that in a box like God's influence through me was going to look like an executive Pastor which really was a picture of that of of the executive pastors that I grew up.

00:37:07like observing and knowing about

00:37:10and I try to force that I try to control that and it wasn't working but it was causing friction. It was causing difficulty and I remember the specific meeting that was filled with my tears at 5 towards the end of it where I had to surrender that and open my hands and trusted God was better at directing my life than I was and ultimately when I open my hands got took that small picture of what I had a took that out and then gave me something better cuz he's because he's a good father right? He wouldn't good gifts for me good things for me as a child.

00:37:56And in so have a lot of cool things happened after that but that's happened multiple times. I like to climb a strategy guys. I like to think like I know what the future holds our know what it's going to look like to hold onto very tightly and God in his grace helps me to loosen my grip a little bit but it's it's caused a lot of issues and pain and friction. I'm in my leadership in my Ministry assistant failure. I would say throughout drama Ministry resources that you've turned to help you the most whether it be in leadership or Ministry or your faith in Christ outside of the Bible and obviously we know you don't pray anymore. So whatever the word of God in the voice of God.

00:38:55I really believe because of what God was doing in this church context. And in this church culture there was it was an environment where I could hear the voice of God right about me not trying but I think just being around one might of Miley pastor and in him submitting to a guy wanted was doing in his wife having. Wieder in my life and being so close to him.

00:39:26And in this church culture, I just allowed me to to hear and respond to the voice of God on the site again, so I can't really point to one resource or a podcast or a book necessarily it just it was it was like we were creating the space for God to actually like do sanctification Airlines actually do the hard work of turning in our lives and Aunt allow him to actually lead us where he wanted us to go. And so, you know, that's why I a lot of these moments came in like a meeting or service or in a conversation with these people these like-minded unified and spirit people and and then I was able to to take that next step of obedience intercept of us surrender or next episode of repentance. So listening to the voice of God knowing his word in and being obedient to it.

00:40:26And really like, you know prayer Jesus Bible That's the answer for everything in my experience has been the most profound thing. It really goes back to the talking about when you said to just be faithful where you are. God can do his greatest work in you if you'll just be faithful in the contacts. He has you and so what is something that God is teaching you right now in this moment. Oh man. So first of all in leadership, it is impossible to make the right decision right now and Leadership.

00:41:05Like real time. So if you're listening and your Your Leader, whether you lead five people or five thousand people I'm you have to get over the fact that you will not be able to make a black-and-white correct decision because of where our culture is in the time that we live in and so I have to kind of get away from that. I got that can't be my goal or my focus and it sounds weird. Let me explain because whether it's a social justice, whether it's the pandemic whether it's politics the moment as a leader you make a decision the moment you say something you will have people that you lead.

00:41:52On one in Step spectrum and say you're the second coming of Jesus in and literally within the same people. You lead. Someone will email you and say you are Satan in the flesh and I've really believe like no matter what decisions you make in this day in age because of our culture you will get both responses more than ever. Everything's polarizing, right? And so as a leader, your aim has to be like really being rooted and grounded in God's word making sure that God's voice which is using on a shout. It's usually a whisper voice is the loudest voice in your mind and in your heart and surround yourself with with like-minded godly people and then you make a decision and you go with it and you just you just have to know

00:42:50So I'm a people pleaser. I like I like when people like me and I don't like when people don't like me that can really crippled decision-making courageous decision making so as Leaders know that now more than ever making the right decision is not the goal being bold and making one that's against God's word in his voice surround by God's people that you're submitting to in keeping countability and then make a decision and go with it and then be all right with having to make a different decision the next week. Yeah that actually Segways while into something that you and I had chatted about over Facebook your this morning jump into that. I was listening to I'll give a shout out here to Virgil Walker. He's a pastor in Nebraska that he has a podcast with a DB Harrelson out of California. He's part of John MacArthur's Church.

00:43:50The following what they're doing one of the things that Virgil said on on the just thinking podcast their latest episode that just came out this week. He says that Christians that I have no Doctrine for suffering and dying and it's so true and think about just even an American culture and how the Prosperity Gospel has just picked up a lot of steam and we don't think we should suffer at all as believe yet Philippians 1:29 tells us that has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him but also to suffer for him and the way that 20/20 has gone in our culture. We're being forced to take stamps that before we didn't have to end. So talk about some things are happening touched on it a little bit with pandemic showing you in the quad season of 2020 and then to take it on more of a personal level as just a follower of Jesus we have to be okay.

00:44:50With your offending people in in some regards, right? And I think what our culture would tell us is that if you stand up for one thing that means you are standing against everything else, right? So the moment that you on as a follower of Jesus, right who on this earth stood up for justice for those that were marginalized for those that didn't have a voice right? Like he went to the well because he knew the woman would be there at the Samaritan woman right into he was constantly for that. So the moment that me as a follower of Jesus start to use my voice for social justice, then the people in law enforcement will think that I'm against them

00:45:41So because I'm for law enforcement or because I'm for social justice before because I'm for change or reform or helping the African Community have a voice on the go against law enforcement. But the same as is also in Reverse if I speak up and say a man. I know people law enforcement I love and care for deeply that serve our lives on the line every single day. If I like you're not going against social justice. I'm against it. And so what that can cause has to do is to not speak up about anything.

00:46:28Where I think God's word is pretty clear on on his heart for people in certain circumstances. And so it's all right, just to speak up. I'm at a specific on that subject matter. It's it's manifest himself really well in our community group. I'm in our community. We have a black couple. I mean, we have a guy in law enforcement and so it's were living out the gospel in that group and if we're able to say in one voice that we love and want to help stand beside and be a voice for our African American friends and family, but we also love and appreciate and so value law enforcement and what they do for communities and we can do both of those things until it's a growing thing right in regards to the pandemic. I think we have to know as followers of Jesus that it's okay to disagree it is okay for two churches to have different policy.

00:47:28Is on Gathering and meeting and and how do you do that? What happens as Believers is when we make a primary is if we make the primary thing what we do in the midst of the pipe pandemic as far as masks and social distancing if we make that the primary thing that either unify their disunified us then we missed the mark cuz there is a greater thing and that is the kingdom of God. There is a I mean seek first the kingdom of God and all of these things right? And so I think with his happen is the church in some regards has made like the cultural Hot Topics the main thing that either unifies Abyss unifies us and that shouldn't be the case cuz that's going to change next year right intentions next year. I think I just need to know that we can even you and I Michael can have different views, but because we followed Jesus there's something greater that unifies us as brothers and and we can be okay with giving a

00:48:28Heather grace. Even though, you know you lit the door handle when you walk into a restaurant and I wear masks right? It's like. We can be we can be okay at you, but you know that you're still my brother. I mean, I'll give you a hug just just to be clear. I didn't realize you saw me do that.

00:48:50I'm sure you did. So let's talk about way maker Institute your heart behind a how it all got started yet. So obviously the story of my experience at a local University was was preparation before I knew I needed it and that's a that's a sermon if you ever wanted it like God is always preparing us before we even realize it because that's that's who we begin to see something that we felt like as a church was a really big problem. So is a couple things we saw in this is Michael this is going to relate to you. I think you've experienced this in one way or another. We saw a lot of young people men and women who had a passion for Ministry felt like they were called into Ministry. They spend four years getting their college degree.

00:49:40Taking out six figures worth of debt to get that college degree to then try to step into full-time vocational Ministry the problem with that scenario that we saw a lot of times was that man or woman during those four years actually never got hands-on experience or exposure exposure to local church said their View and understanding of what Ministry actually look like with only through Instagram, right which is like the highlight reel in that 1% of speaking at the barge conference, right or you know, whatever so they either spend all this money getting this degree get into Ministry realize it's completely different. It's actually hard most days. They actually painful actually going to cost you a lot and this isn't what I signed up for. I'm out of here and now they have a Bible degree trying to go into the marketplace and that's difficult or

00:50:38They do love Ministry or at least say like yes, I'm in this well for most people Ministry is in a lucrative paying position or career path. And so they're Enslaved the step for the rest of your life. Right? Cuz they had to take out so much money to to get this degree. And so we just felt like there had to be there had to be something different how to be a different way for me to affirm discern the call in the other life into not have so many obstacles in the way for them doing that. So we already had our church culture to internship into a Residency program and then we just got an email saying hey there something more and so we had this idea of way maker Institute and has multiple programs as an academic program internship program program option internship is is typical the resin

00:51:38Is like a medical residency right? Like you don't get through medical school and then start cutting up someone on your eyes your own practice the next day. Like there's a residency where your you submit yourself under the care and development of another practicing doctor so we can do that but in regards to Ministry the two-year Ministry position here at the church and an academic program is basically for students who graduated high school and it's like right around $100 per credit hour, which if you know the price of school these days under $100 per credit hours, like nothing since can get an entire year of academic credit. I'm in some really great classes. But literally what we add as they walk out of this class has same-day into a real Ministry area as a practicum never mentioned coach to get the experience of mysteries actually looks like

00:52:39And then what we found it after a year those students have a better understanding of who they are who God is and what he's calling them to so for instance, you know last year. We had one student complete the that year academic program and let you know what this is. Awesome. I love the local church through this got really reveal that I'm also going to counseling and say transferred in on to know the school. He's pursuing counseling but he he he already started as a sophomore already had a Year's worth of classes done with with no debt, right? Another girl was I think I'm just going to education another guys, like know this is what I want to do transferred IMAX got a job at a church as a worship. Pastor is pursuing his bachelor's degree Bridge next step for students to help figure out what they want to do.

00:53:39Without breaking the bank giving them exposure to real Ministry but also furthering their their education and so that's kind of the structure and we're really excited. We just launched our year to Asphalt I guess now and then we're going to do is there a limit on how many students that you can have go through would be our building until right now is a 76000 square-foot building a beautiful facility and I we we were you launched in an online component in 2021 recognizing that there's leaders and pastors. I'm all over the world who are desperate for valve in disrepair education for watching free component in 2021, and I'm sober

00:54:39And they are there in class and then they walk out of the class and get the exercise of stuff. They learned in Ministry area under the developments in discipleship of one of our church staff members. So we kind of combined The Best of Both Worlds. So a lot of fun and quit before and then you recognize a lot bigger than you could ever imagine. So I work if they can find out more at way maker. Institute and we'll have the link on the show Titans. Well, is there any yeah absolutely. Is there anything else about the Institute that you want to mention? My heart's passion is I know we've been developing leaders for years even before the formal like organization this formal School density was established. And so, you know, I have a on the website there's a map but even I mean one of our

00:55:39Map of the United States end of these pins and it shows where there are students that have gone through development have gone to the Institute who are now leading and serving at local churches around 9 States. So like for me when things I like to do is on Sunday, I got to think about not only what God is doing at this church Waymaker church, but I think about all the churches that are being led an impacted by men and women who have gone through an aspect of the Institute whether it's academic program the internship program or or The Residency program, and that's what it's for. The truly is to develop high capacity High character leaders to build up local church in so I don't do that to rest my life. I want to help train of leaders for for the big sea church the global church so that when I die the churches in bed,

00:56:39Hands. And then it was when I started in church ministry not that's my goal. So I hope I'll do a lot of people at my funeral who would say. Hey Mike. Thanks for the best menu development. If you were in my shoes, if you were interviewing Brett Club, what's one question you would ask in his church globally right now in 2020. What is God doing in his church globally right now in 2020 what the heck God is doing honestly, I'm just trying to survive.

00:57:39What doctor do you listen to honestly which is a lot of frustration as well. Cuz this is the question. I've been asking most church leaders that I have the opportunity to talk to The Big C Global church. God is removing a lot of idols.

00:58:09So like friend since I think one of the idols that the church has had is a physical building space right that we had we had turned Church like this Gathering into idolizing an exhausting a building. And so I feel like that has been challenged and and now all the sudden it's like some people uncomfortable coming to this building something, you know, and there's regulations and what are we going to do in and it's like the church will still go on like the church that God a Jesus will still build his church, but what have you made an idol out of it, right or I think even the church in the idol of our identity and and social media and all of these things. He's he's exposing these idols and he's bringing us.

00:59:09Back to some really cool or basic things are friends since my family. The club family has started practicing Sabbath by like the actual practice of Sabbath now, you know as a as a good church goal for the rest of the day in my life. I would say will ya on Sunday? I go to church at Sabbath. My dad was a pastor and I work In Touch Ministry like Sunday is not a day of rest for me. It's a it's a day of hard work. And so this past season has forced us to think about what is what is Sabbath actually look like what is silence and Solitude actually look like in so

00:59:50I think God is is is reviewing a lot about where we place Idols in and is it is giving us a chance to really focus on him like just the pureness who he is. Also what God's doing. This Church's is igniting something through his spirit. I think what we realized is the church is not going to be built by it like attracts attracting people or doing something cool or something creative for say for the church was built when we are obedient to his spirit and that his Spirit begins to through the word change lives and little experience something that's transformational and life-changing and real.

01:00:37And because we can be entertained you all of us have a phone that literally gives us access to every piece of entertainment. We could possibly want. We can't compete the church can't compete with that. So what is it what church has the spirit of living God tonight in 222 literally manifest itself to say I'm I'm here. I want to do something on change lives. I think when we grabbed hold of that the world will say, I don't know what's happening there. But I want some of that like, I don't know what that is, but I want to find out more and it's not the newest latest no church strategy. It's just me and we're desperate for more Jesus and I'm in the spirit is igniting something so I think maybe

01:01:30But the I could be way off. So what what do you think? What do you think man? The good news is that since I'm the interviewer. I don't have to answer any of these questions. That's the gray capsule. We don't you you stole it. It's a shame because I was hoping you were going to say I'm talking about Idols that God took away sports and entertainment and trousers me thinking I'm going to talk about the building. Yeah. Yeah talked about the building. So you stole my answer legitimately but I will say this boy that popped in my head while you were talking was was also just the idea of God taking away the things that we think are important to church like the program. Oh come on, or you know, the class says that they have to be in our I really think that God is just trying to bring people back to himself that his church isn't just about hey, let's get together as a people. Let's hear good.

01:02:30I've done my church, but that I hate that if you're listening and you're a believer in Christ, you have a Ministry to you are the church. The church is in a building. Like you said that God is just trying to draw people back to him. He is the very reason he sent his son if he wants a personal relationship with you. And so I think that I hope that people haven't wasted this season where they could have been drawing closer to God and in just getting back to intimacy with him cuz I really think that that's something that he's trying to do is to just get close to you and you can't change the culture until you change the person and so you guys got to do a work in you before you can do a work in your circle of influence. And so I think maybe personally that's something that I'm seeing that the guy was just trying to to do work in individual lives website.

01:03:30On your bond the bread Club leadership podcast, you can interview for you if you had an opportunity to say one thing to The Listener not one word, but one big idea, maybe it's a big encouragement in in the face or in the Lord can be anything you want. What would that be? Not as good as well say, this is just personal like we're all real time. I would say Do not forget that God is a personal God that yes, he is Great and Mighty and

01:04:11I'm literally spoken to exist in all of Creation with the words that he spoke but he is also a personal God that would send his son Jesus to experience the difficulty of life to experience the winter season of of the soul in a young say that way I'm too experienced pain suffering to experience the struggle of what was before him and yet Jesus did that with this obedience in this like sinlessness in so because of that heat we have a sympathetic understanding personal God and so I know that a lot of people are struggling like emotionally spiritually physically

01:05:04Hennessey's on a lot people feel like God is on silent that got his distant that their prayers are not going much farther than the room that they're in and in yet sinners season stat one Jesus experienced those who experienced that in the desert. I'm as he was tempted by Satan experience that in the garden when he he cried out for for the fatherless. What is there another way that salvation can be brought. So he's experienced that he knows we're going through and yet the whole time I got is there he is with us. He Journeys in the seasons with us. There's something for us to learn and if we submit ourselves and we're faithful to the Disco Seasons, we will understand and see an aspect of God that we have never understood before that. There will be a strength built into us because of our dependency on him. And so

01:06:04Just keep saying faithful keep talking to him and know he's personal. He's right there in that winter does eventually turn to spring because that grade it was empty and it still isn't the right word and I think that to it goes back to what we were just talking about like if you feel like maybe you've wasted this season of not drawing closer to God and not getting intimate with God don't waste any more time like Star Trek today in dive into his word and in John close to any promises and James if you draw near to him, he'll draw near to you so love that I love that the Jesus on the cross near the two thieves right hand in the last moment like he cried out right which is whole life. You live one way the last moment he's like

01:07:04Just like like remember me right now. I want to be with you. And so that's that's a beautiful picture of God's grace. Oh, yeah, even if we have wasted this past season, it's not too late start today and God can do more in the next season than what you wasted in the past. So that's it. That's a good work. Good reminder. Yeah. Thanks so much for hanging out today man is my my privilege. I hope that the people are blessed by this. I know they will be would you mind up ran us out. You see my bad. I'll make I'll make an exception. Okay, I'll make an exception father. I'm grateful for our chat today before our time together and I pray that in the midst of just the chaos and confusion of our culture that you would encourage the person that's listening on that. You would show yourself.

01:08:04Loving faithful good God and their life's personally that you and encourage them that you build a faith that you would that lead them beside the Still Water and restore their salt God pray for Michael specifically on that. You would bless him and his family this podcast that it would reach and build up on people and their faith that build up the church. That would love you. I just asked for a new outpouring of the spirit of Revival. I'm in our country and in the rest of the world. Love you facing sing Jesus name. Amen. Thank you so much for listening to the sharper together podcast. What an incredible conversation we had today with Pastor Brett Club of Waymaker Church in Lynchburg, Virginia, if you enjoy this conversation with past,

01:09:04Brighten, what more like it please subscribe to the podcast and leave a review on whatever platform you love most the more subscriptions and reviews. We received means the more people that will hear about this podcast be encouraged empowered and equipped in their walk with the Lord will see you next time as we stay sharper together.