Pastor Jon Dupin

In today's episode we sit down with Pastor Jon Dupin. Jon is Lead Pastor at WayMaker Church in Lynchburg, Va. He is married to his wife Tammy and they have 3 amazing children. Jon discusses the seasons of the soul and how we all navigate life in seasons with the Lord. He gives his parenting principles and how that Guided he and Tammy in their parenting journey and he touches on the importance of worship and how it truly is a weapon we can wield in this life and so much more.

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Transcript

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Jon Dupin: [00:00:28] how my faith just sort of dismantled so easily when, when I was physically. And I think, I think for me, it was just a, you know, you always think, you know, how am I going to handle trial? How am I going to handle something easy?

Very devastating happening to me. And I got to look at my soul. I got to look at who I was. I got to look at my, my faith and I wasn't, I wasn't really pleased. 

Michael Lee: [00:00:54] Welcome to the sharper together podcast. We're built on the Proverbs 27 [00:01:00] 17 principle that is iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another. It is our hope that listening to real life stories and Q and a.

From Christian leaders of all walks of life, that you'll be encouraged, empowered, and equipped in your walk with Christ today's guest is pastor John Dubin. John is lead pastor of the Waymaker church in Lynchburg, Virginia. He's married to his wife, Tammy, and they have three amazing children. In today's episode, John discusses the seasons of the soul and how we all navigate life in seasons with the Lord.

He gives us his parenting principles and how that guided him and Tammy in their parenting journey. And he touches on the importance of worship and how it truly is a weapon that we can wield in this life. And so much more. I'm your host, Michael Lee. Let's dive into today's episodes and stay sharper together.

John, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for you 

[00:02:00] Jon Dupin: [00:02:00] joining me today. It is great to be here. It's great to hear your voice too. 

Michael Lee: [00:02:04] Ah, that's so sweet of you. I don't know that there's many people that say that about me, so I appreciate 

Jon Dupin: [00:02:10] it. I've listened to the FA the podcast. So, uh, you know, I've technically heard it, but it's good to hear it talking to me.

So, yeah, I 

Michael Lee: [00:02:18] appreciate that, John, the first question for you, what is your favorite story about your life that you love to tell it could be ministry related or it could just be about life in 

Jon Dupin: [00:02:27] general. Yeah, I love to tell the story of how I met my wife. Uh, I know there's a sitcom, uh, somewhere in that, uh, in that bracket, but, uh, I was 17 years old.

Um, just, uh, kind of running from, from a life away from, uh, Christ and, uh, God put me in, in the, in the, in the coolest place I had dinner over at this family's house. And sitting across the [00:03:00] table was this, this very fascinating young woman, um, that we didn't say a word that night that we met, but I ended up going to her school.

Um, about two weeks later, I transferred into her school and saw her in the hallways and just was constantly fascinated. You know, one of those things where you're, you know, infatuated at first and what. Uh, I mean the most miraculous thing happened. Um, my dad comes to me, um, I don't know, maybe February so that this semester is, you know, in full swing and he says, Hey, uh, I was going to take your mom on this cruise, but she started a new job.

Um, what do you think about going with me instead? We'll make, we'll have this father son bonding thing. And I was like, yeah, man, that'd be awesome. Get out of school for a week. So. The first day of this cruise, where my dad and I are going to go to The Bahamas together, just so happens that her parents are on the same [00:04:00] cruise.

And she sits at the same table and right across from me. And it was kind of a, you know, love at first sight. Um, it, it was, it was amazing. It was like, I always knew this, this girl and yeah. We just hit it off. It was a spiritual connection and God used that connection of course, to bring me back to my faith, uh, back to the path, uh, that he had me on.

And I just, uh, love to tell the story. Now I could tell you the. The Epic four part series, a version of that story, but it is one of, one of the, uh, she, and I will tell that story sometimes at parties and we'll add all the, uh, the funny, uh, self-deprecating jokes into that, but it is one of my favorite stories to tell.

Michael Lee: [00:04:54] I think the biggest follow-up to that is did you transfer schools just so you could be around her? 

[00:05:00] Jon Dupin: [00:05:00] Well, no, it just so happened that my parents had moved from Michigan to North Carolina and I wasn't planning to move with them. Uh, I was planning to finish, uh, high school up in Michigan. But something about her.

Yeah. I mean, you know, actually now that you ask now that you say it, I, I guess so subconsciously, I just thought there, you know, what would it be like to get to know this girl more? So it's funny what God uses and who God uses. 

Michael Lee: [00:05:29] I like your style sneakily transferring schools, and you set up a cruise that you could be on together.

Sure, sure. You start the whole thing 

Jon Dupin: [00:05:36] up. Absolutely. Absolutely. Fortunately it wasn't like, you know, Jack and Rose, it didn't end that way. Yeah, exactly. 

Michael Lee: [00:05:44] That's awesome. John, if you could have dinner with any three biblical people not named Jesus, who would be around your table and why. 

Jon Dupin: [00:05:52] Yeah, I Abraham first there's something fascinating about him.

I've been reading through Genesis. [00:06:00] I think what I, what I like about him is he's, he's so flawed and yet, so faithful and I can just relate to that. Uh, I, I am flawed and yet I seek every day to try to be faithful to who Christ has called me to be. Who he's saved me to be. And yet when the flaws and my sins get in the way, God just ends up redeeming them and actually leveraging them, uh, for, for his, his purposes.

And I just see that in, in Abraham's story. So I would just, I would love to sit down with him and unpack that now the other person is still in his family. And, and that is his, uh, great grandson, Joseph, when I think about a guy who walked through trial and walked through testing in such a powerful way, [00:07:00] it's Joseph of the old Testament.

And I, I would love to just, I like to know what it was like to be in Potiphar's house. I would love to. Had him unpack what it was like to be in that prison and how he was able to carry favor with, you know, the guards and basically everywhere he went. Like what, what were his leadership secrets to? Uh, no matter what, no matter how far down he was, he always seemed to find his way into places of influence.

So that that would be, and then of course, I mean, technically he wasn't, one of Jesus's disciples, uh, would be the apostle Paul, I think any, anybody who is a follower of Jesus would want to sit down with Paul and just say, man, unpack all of this theology that you were responsible to put in and in writing.

So those are the, my three guys. 

Michael Lee: [00:07:55] Yeah, I love that answer. You certainly can't go wrong with those three guys [00:08:00] around your table. What's something that you wish you would've known when you first came to faith in the 

Jon Dupin: [00:08:04] Lord. I wish I would have known that that that's a journey. Um, it's not, it's not a destination.

That maturity is really more about seasons and navigating seasons and not ascending some pinnacle. I think in Western Christianity, especially we have a very growth is progression up a mountain. And when really, as I read through the scriptures and I see that growth really is about seasons. In fact, it's something we teach at our, our, our church, the seasons of the soul, that there is, you know, summer, which is kind of this.

Amazing time that you're having with the Lord where everything, just, everything just seems bright and clear. There's fall [00:09:00] where it's, it seems like God is starting to take things from you almost like you leaves falling from the tree. And then there's winter where it almost seems like God has abandoned us.

It's very, it's, it's a very, it's a cold season, even though God is very much there. It's those times where faithfulness and faith really, uh, come to the test and then there's spring on the other sense. Uh, other, other side of, of winter, which is this time of, uh, of rebirth of newness just like spring. And I wish I would've known back at, you know, 16, 17, that that's really what growth is.

It's it's going through the seasons that there's going to be times. Where you don't feel like God is close to you, even though he is. And there's going to be times where you feel like God is so close to you, you're going to mistake that with maturity. Um, so those are, those are the things that I wish I [00:10:00] knew early on in my faith life.

Michael Lee: [00:10:03] I love how you talk about how you can mistake that for maturity, because I just think about my own life and my own seasons, and I can see that where I thought I've arrived. And then you go into that winter fall season and it's like, well, okay. I haven't quite arrived at one of my follow-up questions and I'll just ask it now because that's a great time for is to talk about a season.

And I'm going to assume that this was a winter season, but I'm sure you'll unpack it for us. Talk about a season in your life that was really difficult for you and what God taught you in that. 

Jon Dupin: [00:10:30] Sure. There's there's two that come to my mind. One was more of an external challenge. Um, it was a challenge in our church's history where a team that I had built over probably seven or eight years.

Uh, was starting to dismantle and, and it's one of those things where as a, as a young pastor, you think, man, these are the, these are the men and women I'm going to lead with forever. You have this [00:11:00] naive T that somehow that's success is too. Build a team early on in ministry. And then you, you all retire together, you know, uh, you know, in Colorado, I don't know wherever that place is that people retire.

But, uh, in, in that season, which was right around 2012, when it started to dismantle, I couldn't figure it out. I thought there was something. The culture of our church definitely needed to get healthy, but a lot of it had to do with the disunity of the team. And I think I w delayed certain conversations with myself.

My own introspection in repentance, as well as conversations with these team members to say, Hey, who, who of us needs to go on to our next assignment and who of us needs to stay in and almost retool. And I don't think those conversations happened the way they should, [00:12:00] at least even, you know, I know that I didn't have them as patiently and humbly as I should have.

And so it just caused a lot of disunity and hurt. Uh, both in the team and ultimately in the church that we, we, it took us probably two or three years after that to really get healthy again. And so it was just a very lonely time. It was a time where God was definitely present and pressing on me. And I know even some of these other men and women who still mean a lot to me.

Um, but you know, we're all. Serving in, in, in different ways. And many of them are serving in different places. So I think that was very hard. Uh, I almost think of it. Like, I, I joke sometimes, like, it's like when the Beatles broke up, you know, it's like we made such good music together. Um, but there came a time where it's like, you know, God's moving us on and we, we need to, we need to do this well and do this.

Right. [00:13:00] I wouldn't change that season. I would just change the way we did it. And specifically me as a leader. 

Michael Lee: [00:13:07] Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. You had mentioned, and I don't know if you want to talk about it or not, but you had mentioned there was two that came to mind. Did you want to unpack the other one or?

Jon Dupin: [00:13:16] Yeah, the other one was more internal. Um, literally physically internal. I got deathly ill in 2003, 2004 for months. You know, doctors, physicians couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. Ended up being a. Uh, a bacterial infection in my body. Uh, but at the time nobody knew what it was, but I just kept getting sicker.

I kept losing weight and getting weaker. And I think I would've rather just said. It, you know, a doctor just said, well, you have cancer. So let's, you know, or you have this, or you have that at least know what it is, but for months, I didn't know what it was. And of course, nobody knew how to treat it or, you know, eventually cure it.

[00:14:00] So with the uncertainty of that together with just the physical pain, not being able to eat, uh, it created a really dark depression. In my life, I shut myself off relationally. I handled it very, very, I would say in isolation. And my, my wife was really one of the only people to see sort of the darker side of that.

He, you know, even now I have to just, I have to reapply apologize to her for that season. Just how my faith just sort of dismantled so easily when. When I was physically ill. And I think, I think for me, it was just a, you know, you always think, you know, how am I going to handle trial? How am I going to handle something really, really devastating happening to me.

And I got to look at my soul. I got to look at who I was. I got to look at my, my faith and I wasn't. I wasn't really pleased. Thankfully, you know, [00:15:00] we found the right doctor after a lot of prayer, he was able to diagnose me. He was able to treat me, but it took me about two years to get back to full strength, um, in my body.

But those, those months of being sick and isolated and questioning whether or not God existed, you know, if he did, did he still love me? I mean, all of those things were, you know, Kind of whirling in my soul in my head. 

Michael Lee: [00:15:27] If I remember correctly, did you go on a mission trip? Is that where you ended up getting it from?

Jon Dupin: [00:15:32] Or that's the theory? Yeah, I had been to India and I had been, uh, baptizing, some people in a pretty polluted water source and you know, so that the doctors, you know, kind of. Say that that's most likely where I'm I probably contracted this. So, but I don't know, you know, who knows? 

Michael Lee: [00:15:52] I love your openness to talking about depression.

And so I kind of want to go there for a second. What would you say to the believer who's listening right now? [00:16:00] Who's battling depression. 

Jon Dupin: [00:16:01] Yeah. Well that goes back to one of the questions you asked me. How would I do things differently early on? Or what would I say to myself early on? I would say get counseling, get counseling.

Uh, and, and be in counseling really all of your life. I, I didn't think that that was strength, or I looked at counseling early on in my early twenties and my early marriage as weakness, you know, all the cliches, you know, now I look at it as man. This is another tool that God gives us. I think he gifts people.

Spiritually to be able to navigate the human heart and the human soul and human relationships. And we call them counselors right now. I value it and now I schedule it regularly, both individually and in my marriage. And we have a whole system in our church where people can, can gain lay counseling and even professional counseling through different channels in our church.

So [00:17:00] what I would say to somebody right now, um, is. Number one, get out of isolation. If you're in it. If what are, for whatever reason with the COVID restrictions or, you know, your own limitations, aren't able to be in the same room with people regularly, get on FaceTime or zoom with people are on the phone with people.

And have contact with as many people as you can that are healthy people. And I don't mean necessarily physically healthy me, although that's important to say now, and then get counseling, pastoral counseling, spiritual counseling, um, professional counseling to really unpack where you are. I think all of us grapple with depression on some level at some time in our life.

Uh, and that, that is a human condition. It's not like, Oh, well that's a person who battles depression. It's like, well, if they're [00:18:00] human, they battle it on some level studies. Now show that, you know, people deal with depression on a deeper, more clinical level as well. And not everybody deals with it on that level, but I think all of us are somewhere on that spectrum.

So my advice to people is get in community healthy community and get counseling. And then, you know, this may sound cliche and you may expect a pastor to say this, but there's something powerful about corporate worship singing to the Lord with people singing to the Lord in mass. And I know 2020 was kind of weird with all of that, but.

You mean that's as ancient as time, but there's something powerful. I think there's a weapon that God has established in worship that really just warms our soul that clarifies our mind, that encourages our soul. [00:19:00] And, uh, I just, I would say that, you know, I know a doctor or a clinician wouldn't say, Hey, go to church and sing.

Um, and you'll feel better. Uh, cause that's not their role, but that's what I would say in addition to, um, so many other things. Yeah, no, 

Michael Lee: [00:19:15] I think that's a great answer. I think about, and I know this versus talking about when you're having conflict with one another, but I kind of see it as having conflict in yourself too.

Like. When you have these internal battles and these emotions that you're fighting in this depression, you're fighting that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. And I know there's a clinical chemical balance reaction that causes depression as well. But I just, I wonder how much of it is spiritual sometimes and really what worship would really do to uplift our spirits and pull us out of that.

So I think that's a great thing. Yeah. 

Jon Dupin: [00:19:48] Well, and it, cause you're, you are a warring on the spiritual level. Right. And yeah. And you said, uh, you know, you know, Ephesians six, we were in a we're in a battle field every day. And [00:20:00] you know, our enemy is not, it's not human beings. It's, it's very much, uh, spirit spiritual.

Michael Lee: [00:20:06] Yeah. I love that answer. John, what would you say is the difference? Talk about the difference between pastor John 15, 20 years ago to pastor John today? Uh, 

Jon Dupin: [00:20:15] the difference would be, uh, today. I, I fear the Lord. On a much greater level. And I don't mean in a debilitating way. I just mean, man, I can't believe you let me do this.

I can't believe I get to do this. And so I wake up every day with a familiarity with God that is possible through Christ and his spirit. Right. But also an awe and awe of who he is and what he requires and what he is asking. More so than the fear of man. And I think I had that lopsided, um, for the early parts of ministry.

I think I was just so afraid of [00:21:00] the opinions of man and man, you know, if we make this decision or we, you know, we go after this ministry, you know, what are people gonna think? And I, if I could go back in and do things differently, that's how I would do it differently. But that is the difference today than 15 years ago.

And that is, I quiet the fear of man often, and I lean into the fear of God daily. 

Michael Lee: [00:21:31] Could you unpack that a little bit for those who are listening, who don't quite understand what it means to fear the Lord, they might have that view that you kind of touched on about this overwhelming fear of 

Jon Dupin: [00:21:42] God. Sure.

Yeah. I'll, I'll steal a metaphor from Jesus. He did something so vivid and powerful, and he referenced God as a father. And he said, my heavenly father, your heavenly father, the heavenly father. Right. And he was, he was [00:22:00] constantly, constantly referring to it. And he was pulling from, from the old Testament idea of, of, of God as a father.

And he was making it. More familial, like God is not just a father figure. He is actually a father who loves you and wants to know you. And so I like in that too, even my own earthly father, as a kid, he would hug me and he would, you know, wrestle with me and he would throw the ball out in the front yard with me.

He'd do all of those things, but he was also someone that I knew would correct me. And sometimes even discipline me. And so had this relationship with my father that in one sense, I felt very safe and very close and very comfortable with him. And yet I knew there was this place that my father would go because he loved me where I could see his anger and I could see his [00:23:00] correction and it didn't.

It didn't scare me in the way of trauma traumatizing me. It scared me in the way of, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to disappoint my dad. I don't want to cross my dad because my dad loves me. And so that's how I would explain it to people the best I can. Now I know. That people have a lot. When, when I talk about trauma, a lot of people would say, yeah, their father, their earthly father is a traumatic figure in their life.

And I, and I get that more and more. In, in the, in the times that we live, you know, fathers who abandoned their children, abused their children or absent. And so using that father metaphor is, is elegant. Sometimes that's the best I can do. I mean, it's what Jesus did. And I think that's how I seek God. I see him as a perfect application of my earthly father and my earthly father [00:24:00] is one of the most influential.

People in my life now, even today, 

Michael Lee: [00:24:05] you certainly can't go wrong using the same metaphor that Jesus did to explain that. So I appreciate you talking about that, John, what is something that God is teaching you right now in 

Jon Dupin: [00:24:15] this moment? I would say right now presence and I mean, like being present, not trying to think about.

Litigating the past or getting too far ahead into the future, but actually soaking in this moment right now being present, you know, it's kind of a buzzword right now, but that's, that's what I would say. I, I, I think God is teaching me to really enjoy where my family is right now. And not worrying about, okay, what happens if this or that takes place?

Or man, I can't wait until [00:25:00] it's like, no, just, just be present right now. Like be grateful for this moment and soak it in and find joy in it. Find joy in it because you know, we're not guaranteed tomorrow. We're not guaranteed another season. I mean 2020 has taught that to, to, to our whole planet. Right. So that's what I think he's, he's sharing with me now.

The other thing is he gets clear and more concise in his will when I'm moving than when I'm sitting still. And what I mean by that is I think all of us have a tendency sometimes to just sit there and wait for God to download instructions on what's next. And so we sit in this spiritual couch and really, I have found as of late that when I just get up and I start moving and just being obedient to what I already know, God has instructed of me, love him, love people.

[00:26:00] One of the best ways I'm going to love him is to love people. You know, always asking the question, what does love require of me? And then answering it with action. It is in those moments of activity that I find more and more clarity and conciseness of what God is actually up to in my life. And really even the world 

Michael Lee: [00:26:21] that's so different.

I love that. You said that because that's so different from what you hear so many pastors. Preach, when it comes to hearing from God is to just be still and just rest in the Lord. And there is truth to that obviously, but I see that my own life too, about those moments where I'm being active and doing things that the Lord just speaks.

And so I love that it's kind of counterintuitive to what a lot of us as believers. 

Jon Dupin: [00:26:45] Yes. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't be still okay. I want to, I want to make sure. Yeah. But I think even in the stillness and even in the waiting, we can be active. I think sometimes we think that waiting means you're literally putting everything [00:27:00] on pause, you know, waiting can be a very active waiting.

So yes. I agree. Sometimes we do need to wait, but even in that waiting be doing something, 

Michael Lee: [00:27:11] does taking a nap count as doing something? 

Jon Dupin: [00:27:15] Well, I would say that's even biblical, you know, just like rest is, it could be, uh, active, right? Because you've been, you've been going, I mean, God is very serious about. The human body and the human mind needing rest and Sabbath.

So yes, I would say yes. Well, I, for 

Michael Lee: [00:27:36] 1:00 AM grateful that you just made the argument that naps are biblical. So that makes me feel a whole lot better. This next question is one pastor Brett club. And I talked about as any loved the listeners who have listened to that episode, know that pastor Brett is on staff with you, pastor Brett.

And I talked about this. I'd love to get your answer on what do you think God is teaching his church through this season of [00:28:00] 2020. And, and right now, 

Jon Dupin: [00:28:02] Yeah, I think he is teaching us that our worship gatherings are just one part of being the church that getting together, you know, earlier I mentioned, you know, corporate worship was important and corporate learning is important, but that is only one piece of the puzzle or the purpose of the church.

Uh, I heard, uh, Rick Warren saying this the other day. I think thousands of people. In his church. I mean, he's out in California, which things are still very much shut down. Thousands of people have come to Christ through his church, even in lockdown. And he went on to explain because they have a value that every member is a minister and every person is an evangelist.

And so all throughout the months, Uh, you know, he has been preaching and teaching from sometimes an open field or [00:29:00] some room that he's in to thousands of people who are gathering homes throughout California, constantly saying, share Christ with your neighbors, share Christ with, with your family members.

So I think that is big. We have poured out more. Resource compassion in our community Waymaker church than, than ever in our history in 2020, even when we weren't meeting. And when I say meeting, when we weren't meeting together in a building, we were meeting in living rooms and kitchens and basements and so on.

So I think that's a big thing that. God is teaching the church in 2020. I think what he's teaching the American church is that, uh, our politics and our government are not the answer to, you know, to spiritual problems and they have to be put in their proper place in our [00:30:00] minds. That we first serve the kingdom of God and not the empires of man, no matter where somebody is politically or where they are in their party affiliation, or maybe they're even cynical of the whole thing.

I think 2020 has taught the church that our faith and our hope must be in Christ as King and not. Our president or Congress or our judiciary system. And then I think a third thing that God is teaching the, the church, at least in, in America is we have to pay attention to injustices of our culture and we cannot, uh, take a, a sideline to them.

Um, you know, this year we've gone through a pandemic, but we've also gone through [00:31:00] social and even racial upheaval. And I think if the church sat by and just was complaining about not being able to get together and our worship gatherings, while not paying attention to. Uh, what is, what was happening both with our, our brothers and sisters in law enforcement and our brothers and sisters in the minority communities.

I think we would just be so irrelevant if we carry that into another year, you were 

Michael Lee: [00:31:31] part of a really big rally in downtown Lynchburg, uh, with some other pastors. Do you want to talk about that and kind of what that did, uh, strengthening the relationship between the churches there? 

Jon Dupin: [00:31:42] Yeah. We, we have a network of churches.

That operate sometimes under the banner of what's called Lynchburg preys, P R a Y S praise, not, um, like singing praise. And so we mobilized that right in the middle of the summer. Uh, I think [00:32:00] it was right after, you know, George Floyd and the, I would say the more predominant and larger African-American church in our community ramped church international.

And then. And then our church and some other churches called the church in our community to go downtown and pray, worship and repent. Uh, this wasn't a protest, this wasn't, um, a political rally. In fact, we didn't even mention the names, George Floyd. Uh, we didn't mention Wisconsin. I mean, we didn't, we didn't mention any of the headlines of the news.

All we pointed to is there is a untenable and I would say a chronically ignored racial divide in our country that the church has not done a great job. In fact, I would say even a poor job speaking into and advocating for, [00:33:00] because it always seems to get political. Or it always seems to get religious. So what we said is, Hey, what can we all do in common?

We can all pray together. We can all worship together and we can all repent together. And we can just trust that if we all get together and do those things that the Holy spirit will do the rest. And he did. Uh, we had a rally in the beginning of June and we had a rally at the end of June. Uh, the first one was electric because people were waiting on the church to lead something and then we did it again, and it was even more emboldened with people.

In fact, in the midst of a COVID summer, hundreds and hundreds of people from our community, it gathered in a, in an open park and. Praised God took communion together, publicly repented of, I mean, and I'm not talking about, you know, just white Christians or just African-American Christians. I'm talking about all [00:34:00] Christians who were they're repenting over.

Ignorance and racial, underlying tensions and injustice that Christians had allowed or participated in. I mean, it was just powerful to hear the stories that were happening and there wasn't anybody from stage holding up a sign from any social movement or political movement or party. Uh, it was literally the reading of scripture and the call to repentance and the Holy spirit does what the Holy spirit does.

The 

Michael Lee: [00:34:36] local news pick 

Jon Dupin: [00:34:37] that up too. Didn't they, the first one actually ended up, I mean, going pretty much global and I mean, I had pastors. We had pastors in California, in Seattle within 24 hours reaching out to us, uh, people, we didn't even know. I had friends from high school going, Hey, I just saw this. It was pretty powerful to see the traction that it got.

And, and even what I think inspired [00:35:00] other, other cities and other communities, uh, to, to do so. I mean, we weren't the only ones, but that definitely got a lot of traction, especially through social media and news outlets. Uh, so that, that was, I mean, that wasn't the intent, but you know, God multiplies things that we never intend.

To do, uh, because you know, that's what he does. But the main thing is out of that came very practical things. Since then, the leadership of these various churches have still continued to meet together and talk about what's next in our community. We've deepened our friendship with one another, which I think is the ultimate thing.

It's hard to be suspicious of, or, you know, ignore people that you're friends with. Honestly, if I were to ever get down to what is the solve for the tension in our country? I think it's Jesus and friendship. Um, when you sit across the table from somebody and you share life and you share [00:36:00] love and, and friendship with people, you just are more empathetic and understanding and you advocate for them because they're, your friends 

Michael Lee: [00:36:08] goes back to the greatest commandment.

Love God and love people. Yes. I want to take you back to January of 2020. You made a post on Instagram, it was about chase and some struggles that you guys have been having. And I'm not even going to ask you about that unless you want to go into it. But within the posts, you said these words that it was how God has handled you at times, you said.

Called, but not ready. What would you say to the believer right now? Who is called and feels called, but they're just not right? 

Jon Dupin: [00:36:36] Yeah, no, it's good. All three of my kids are different. It's just like anybody with children, you know that you love them all the same, but you can't apply the same principles of parenting the same way.

My wife and I kept very consistent with our principles of parenting. What I realized though, is that my youngest son needed a different [00:37:00] part of me, that to parents. So it was really more about me than it was about him. Just that, that lesson. He is very, he feels very deeply where I am. I'm more logical. And so.

Well, he and I were just going through when he turned 14, 15, just really trying to navigate our relationship as father and son and, you know, areas of authority and respect. Uh, I tell people, you know, he, he wasn't this rebellious child who was, you know, running guns across the Mexican border, but he and I definitely were pressed in our relationship.

What I had to get to realize is that he has this calling on his life and I can either. Help him as his father, or if I don't navigate it correctly, I will hinder him. And so what the season that we'd gone through was me figuring that out. But in that, the statement that I made [00:38:00] called the not ready, something that my son chase and really, I think I had, I have had to learn and continue to relearn is.

There's this calling on our life. And we have to make sure that our character and that our integrity and that our maturity are ready to walk into it. Um, because it's going to demand a lot of us in Chase's case, he was just in a situation where he was pushing back against. You know, my authority in his life is his father and I was not handling it with humility.

And so he and I had to dial get on the same page if you will. So something that I was sharing with him was you got this calling on your life, but you have to make sure that you are. Able to follow authority, if you're going to carry authority and you have to be a great [00:39:00] follower, if you're going to be a great leader.

And so I have no doubts that he has this leadership annointing on his life. And I think the season that he and I were going through then, and, and now we're kind of walking out of God, was teaching him and me. Uh, those lessons all over again. You had 

Michael Lee: [00:39:20] mentioned you and your wife had your principles on parenting and you know, my wife, Katie and I, we know your children.

Well, we were at your church when your kids were little and we got to serve in kids ministry back then. And so would you talk a little bit about your principles on parenting and what would you say to those younger families that have kids who are young? 

Jon Dupin: [00:39:39] Yeah. Um, I don't even remember. How we came up with these, you know what it was, we were at the children's museum here in Lynchburg, amazement square, and they had these three little things all over the place.

These three little, like, be kind, be courteous or something like that. I don't remember what it was. And we said, you [00:40:00] know, man, that's so simple and so memorable. What if we kind of came up with three things that we could always take everything back to in parenting our kids. Okay. Uh, instead of having like this ambiguous list of things or this man exhaustive book of every exception and situation, what if we just said, Hey, are you living by these three things?

Obviously it got to, they got to an age where it was like, you know, our relationship started to change, but these principles are still true. You know, the first one is be kind. That later turned to be to, to be respectful, be respectful. And that is like how you treat one another, how you treat people outside of our family, like be kind.

And so if we were ever in a situation and we saw them not being kind or respectful, we'd always say, Hey, are you being kind? And they would go back to that, those three things. And [00:41:00] that was number one, become. The other one is, um, always tell the truth. So we just said, you've got to be honest, your, your character, your integrity, and ultimately how people will or will not trust you, comes down to your word.

And do you tell the truth, even if it's not convenient. And so we would always go back to that. Hey, are you, you know, are you being honest? Are you telling the truth because that is more important and we really try to make telling the truth. Even if it got them in trouble, we celebrated that. So it'd be like, Hey, you know what?

You told the truth and that's exactly what you should do. Uh, even though it is going to cause you consequences. We want you to know that telling the truth is the highest value. So there was that. And then the other one was, uh, obey right away. There was just something that we wanted our kids to understand that as their parents, in this phase, in their life, [00:42:00] You don't question it, mom and dad are for you.

They have their best interest. And even if they're wrong, they're still, they're still going to guide you towards ultimately, what is good for you? What is, what is best for you? And so obey right away, it keeps you safe. Like if you're out in the street, Hey, Don't get out of the street obey right away. So those three things really, we took everything back to obey right away.

Also help them understand that all of us are under authority. And which is what I had said earlier. You know, you, you can't lead. If you can't follow, you can't hold authority. If you can't be under authority. So those were the three things that we constantly took them back to, you know, be kind, be honest and obey right away.

Michael Lee: [00:42:46] You mentioned that on number two, how you celebrate even if they were wrong. How did you handle those times when they kind of got out of line from those priorities in those 

Jon Dupin: [00:42:54] principles? Well, I'll give you an example. My son, I think in fourth grade, came home from school [00:43:00] one day and he, I could tell he was despondent and I said, what's wrong?

And he goes on to confess that he had looked on one of his friend's papers during a quiz. He saw the answer and he wrote the answer down. And so he just said, I, you know, I cheated. And that was an instance where I just said, well, first I want you to know that telling the truth and telling it fully is, is where grace is going to rush in.

You know, and, and, and I believe that I believe that when we get things in the light and we get things, uh, to the surface, the way they need to be, it, it allows for grace. Right. It's when we get caught that grace gets weird, especially in human relationships. But, uh, I said, um, okay, what do you think you should do?

And he said, I think I should go tell my teacher. And I said, I think you should. And I said, I will go with [00:44:00] you. And, and so that was one of those instances where I didn't even have to discipline him. You know, he, he knew that he had been dishonest. He admitted to it, and I didn't need to do anything other than walk with him to own his sin and accept the consequences of it, you know, and his teacher.

Of course gave him a zero. Uh, but she too said, I am so grateful and I respect you for coming to me and telling me that you, that you were dishonest and that you sent, and there's something about that in the human heart, right? Where our hearts are wired, the way God's heart is. And he responds to confession.

That's kind of how I look at it. 

Michael Lee: [00:44:48] And just kind of a quick follow-up to that parenting question. What, being a parent yourself, what did that teach you about God as a 

Jon Dupin: [00:44:54] father? First on the negative side, it teaches me how far from [00:45:00] perfect. I am as a parent and how perfect he is. I don't have the patients that got as.

God never has to apologize to us right on the other. And I have to apologize to my kids often. And that's a big thing, you know, if I had, you know, one thing to give to parents and it's like, Hey, you've got this one thing I would say, tell your kids, you're sorry. Seek their forgiveness, the heart and the mind and the soul of your children are so.

Ready and willing to pour out grace and forgiveness on their imperfect parents. It's, it's hard for them though. When parents walk around and act like they're perfect or act like they can never do wrong or act like kid is always wrong. It's very hard for kids, especially as they get older, when they start realizing how imperfect we truly are.

And yet how. Defensive we can be and how we, we don't admit to when we're wrong. And, and [00:46:00] that really creates a wall so much so that it can really harm the relationship. Long-term 

Michael Lee: [00:46:05] love that answer because I'm seeing that in my own life with our oldest daughter, anytime that I go and apologize to her, she's so quick to forgive and forget about what just happened.

And so kids at that age, they really do show you. The heart of God when it comes to forgiveness. Yeah. 

Jon Dupin: [00:46:21] And you know, they practice it with one another. You want them to love each other? I mean, nothing gives me greater joy than when I find out all three of my kids were hanging out, you know, that they all went, uh, you know, went out to dinner together and that they're planning some round of disc golf in the park together.

And it's like, man, I want my kids to want to come home and be with my wife and me. And I want my kids to want to be around each other. And that happens when they're honest and when they're kind. And when they understand their place in the world, that they're both under authority and that they carry authority.

Michael Lee: [00:46:59] John, I've [00:47:00] got just two more questions for you. This next one is one of my favorite questions to ask. And it's, if you were sitting down and you're interviewing John Dubin, what is a question you would ask for John? Yeah, 

Jon Dupin: [00:47:10] that's good. What I would ask of, of myself, if I were interviewing me is what takes you so long?

To learn lessons, uh, when it comes to relationships, what takes you so long? And, you know, I think the aunt, you know, it sounds like a loaded question because I can load up a question to myself, but that's what I would ask. Why is it taking so long to learn? And so 

Michael Lee: [00:47:40] now, you know, I got to ask you, so what's the answer to that question and yes, 

Jon Dupin: [00:47:43] sure.

I think a pride man, I think pride and fear. Yeah, still I'm 45 years old. And you think that I'd have these things wrestled out and dealt with, but I think there's a part of me. That's just afraid if I get vulnerable and [00:48:00] admit to something, or I don't know, open up about something that it'll come back and hurt me and I'm proud, right?

Like I don't want to be wrong and I don't want to be seen as imperfect or flawed. It takes me a while to really teach that to myself was the Holy spirit to reteach it to me that no, it's actually, when you let go of your fear and your pride, that these relationships that you value so much actually grow and get so much better and stronger.

So I'm hoping that the back half of my life will be, I'll just be so much quicker. And learning those lessons and that, by the time I get to, you know, my seventies and eighties, I'm experiencing such rich relationships. Um, because I think it was Andy Stanley. It says, you know, happiness is a who, not a, what?

Happiness is not what I have. It's not [00:49:00] possessions. It's not, it's not reputation, not the accolades of man. That's not happiness. Happiness is who is with you in the room. Long-term I think you have to fight for those things every day. And I think you have to let go of fear and pride quickly to make sure that those things are rich and, and growing and going the distance.

Appreciate you 

Michael Lee: [00:49:23] sharing that. And then my final question for you is more of a statement. Really? If you had an opportunity to say one final thing, you'll never have this audience of listeners in front of you again, what would you say? What would be that one thing you'd say to those listening 

Jon Dupin: [00:49:36] love audaciously.

Michael Lee: [00:49:39] Short and to the point I 

Jon Dupin: [00:49:40] like it. Yeah. That's what I'd say. And that's what I'm 

Michael Lee: [00:49:44] learning, but it's one of the most difficult things we can do, John. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining me, correct? Absolutely. It's an honor. The honor was all mine, John, thank you again for joining me today. Would you mind closing us out in prayer?

Jon Dupin: [00:49:59] Absolutely. [00:50:00] Uh, father, you are good and you are magnificent. You, your character is. That which we can trust fully. And so I turned my trust all over to you again, on behalf of everyone, listening to me, I believe somebody is listening to me right now. Who's struggling with their faith. And I just pray that even this prayer would be an anointing of new faith in deepening faith on their life, that they would see you and feel you in a vivid way right now.

I pray that your kingdom come and will, will be done in all of us. Give us what we need to be white. Um, help us forgive big in love, audaciously, and keep us from temptation, which is a snake. 

Michael Lee: [00:50:42] Thanks so much for tuning into today's episode of the sharper together podcast. If you want to hear more incredible conversations, just like this, please make sure to subscribe to the sharper together podcast on your favorite listening device, you'll receive each episode downloaded directly to you.

So you never miss a show. Would you take a [00:51:00] moment and subscribe and review this podcast? Because the more subscriptions that reviews received means more and more people that will receive and hear about these life giving conversations, you can find more information@wwwdotsharperpodcast.com. We'll see you next time as we stay sharper together, .